The End of Tales of the TMNT?

[Roseangelo]

Diamond has changed their threshold requirements for the titles that it distributes. (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/010919-Diamond-Thresholds.html)

Why this is the likely doom of TMNT comic books. (http://ninja-pizza.blogspot.com/2009/01/end-of-tales-of-tmnt.html)

[turkishproverb]

Yea, saw that, ouch. Looks like Gary's got his excuse.

[Ninjinister]

Things just keep getting worse.

[TristanHuwJones]

The big problem here is that this could be the end of Tales (at least for now and through Diamond) and that it will be more at the hands of the comic book industry itself than Gary pulling the plug. All those people saying they're waiting for the trades or only want their stories animated and on TV really should be jumping on the books, otherwise the future could be pretty bleak :dead:

[Roseangelo]

The big problem here is that this could be the end of Tales (at least for now and through Diamond) and that it will be more at the hands of the comic book industry itself than Gary pulling the plug. All those people saying they're waiting for the trades or only want their stories animated and on TV really should be jumping on the books, otherwise the future could be pretty bleak :dead:

Begging people to buy a comic book isn't going to save it. :|

[TristanHuwJones]

Begging people to buy a comic book isn't going to save it. :|

I know that, I'm not saying that's what should happen, I'm just still kinda taken aback when I see people complaining about the show finishing and not getting their TMNT fix but then not taking any interest in the comics at all. My main point is that ultimately, the death knell is more likely to come from Diamond these days.

[joe-eyeball]

Mirage killed the comics by basically making it impossible for casual fans to get interested in them. I, personally love the comics but when they keep going with the same old style and do nothing to punch them up or keep with the times then nobody is going to care. You don't see any graphic novels in book stores (that would help keep the turles in the minds of comic fans), and really anything published by Mirage is kind of drab and not very eye catching.

I mean when you walk into any decent comic shop there are so many titles to choose from and quite honestly Mirage and the Turtles offer relatively little to stand out from the others. Lets face it, Mirage is very "small time" still trying to hang in there with the big boys. They probably should at least consider crossovers with comics publishers who can actually sell comic books with greater success.

[IamtheKnight]

Tales is my favorite comic book titles. Oh well. Might as well find a new comic to read...

[Hero]

I'll be sad to see Tales go.

===HERO

[DrSpengler]

It is a shame to see Tales go, but as has already been mentioned, there's more to blame here than just Diamond.

You'd think a comic titled "Ninja Turtles" released during the prime of the Ninja Turtles resurgance, wouldn't generate such pitiful numbers.

And yet, trades for the book were not made available in places where the core audience could find them (book stores). Additionally, Laird's insistence on "doing his buddy Jim a solid", resulted in an artstyle that didn't appeal top practically anyone.

There were a number of poor business and creative decisions which lead to Tales' self destruction, and considering the massive upswing in popularity Ninja Turtles was going through during Tales' run, there really is no quality excuse for such failures.

Still, "failure" may not be an appropriate word. 50+ issues is a very, very healthy run. But it was 50+ issues of nonprofit which could have been otherwise if it hadn't been for a group of stubborn old men.

Ah well. I have all my issues and I'll enjoy them. I guess this just means more money for me to save.

[Ninjinister]

As I've said before, TMNT related comics are the only ones I actively collect these days, and if they go under, I have no reason to visit my local CBG except maybe a couple of times a year. I may pick up HeroClix, an issue of Hellboy or two, and/or a character guide when I'm there, but the TMNT is the reason I go.

[dripgutz24]

TMNT is the only comics I collect so if there done that would suck because I would just be done with comics then.

[AquaParade]

I just hope every issue is eventually available in trade. I'm ready to start picking these up in tbp form.

[turkishproverb]

Does it matter? They don't reprint the trades so its lose-lose.

[Vegita-San]

It is a shame to see Tales go, but as has already been mentioned, there's more to blame here than just Diamond.

You'd think a comic titled "Ninja Turtles" released during the prime of the Ninja Turtles resurgance, wouldn't generate such pitiful numbers.

And yet, trades for the book were not made available in places where the core audience could find them (book stores). Additionally, Laird's insistence on "doing his buddy Jim a solid", resulted in an artstyle that didn't appeal top practically anyone.

There were a number of poor business and creative decisions which lead to Tales' self destruction, and considering the massive upswing in popularity Ninja Turtles was going through during Tales' run, there really is no quality excuse for such failures.
.

This pretty much hits the nail on the head.

Just about EVERY book is being released in Trade PaperBack form these Days. Hell, even stuff from the 30's, like the original Popeye News Paper strips is being put out in TPB form. So, why can't Turtles?

And as much as I HATE to drag Jim's art through the mud again like everyone else is doing, I really have ot agree with it. It's just not all that great. The Turtles don't have to look like a super bulked up Superman or your other typical super hero, but you should at least be able to tell the humans from the mutants...

A little advertising here and there also wouldn't hurt...with a set time frame for when people can pick up Trade Paperbacks. If you didn't walk into a comic book store, how many people even know that Tales of the TMNT had been revived?

There is no reason that Turtles needs to go away, in either Comic or Movie/TV form. But bad decisions and other problems are not helping matters ...

[Cipher]

It is a shame to see Tales go, but as has already been mentioned, there's more to blame here than just Diamond.

You'd think a comic titled "Ninja Turtles" released during the prime of the Ninja Turtles resurgance, wouldn't generate such pitiful numbers.

And yet, trades for the book were not made available in places where the core audience could find them (book stores). Additionally, Laird's insistence on "doing his buddy Jim a solid", resulted in an artstyle that didn't appeal top practically anyone.

There were a number of poor business and creative decisions which lead to Tales' self destruction, and considering the massive upswing in popularity Ninja Turtles was going through during Tales' run, there really is no quality excuse for such failures.

Still, "failure" may not be an appropriate word. 50+ issues is a very, very healthy run. But it was 50+ issues of nonprofit which could have been otherwise if it hadn't been for a group of stubborn old men.

Ah well. I have all my issues and I'll enjoy them. I guess this just means more money for me to save.This is probably the most concise and accurate assesment of the comics' run that I've seen. The major problem, as has been stated many times, is a lack of exposure. A lack of reprints. A lack of advertising. A lack of trades in bookstores (and this is a huge part of how comics thrive nowadays).

And, yeah, the presentation. I personally find alot to like in Lawson's art. It's not my favorite, but I can certainly appreciate it. What anyone, fan or not, has to admit, is that his style isn't eye-catching for a casual audience. That's the bottom line of it.

If this marks the end of the run, at least alot of good came out of it. I only heartily wish for a massive run of trades (like City at War, Volume 2, Volume 4), and to see Volume 4 finished.

[DK2]

Well this isn't good at all. Its safe to say the Tales series will end somehow prematurely. If not by this Diamond change of polices then Mirage will call it quits right away. Maybe they'll reprint the completed unreleased Tales issues into a trade instead? It might be feasible. Wasn't Tales suppose to end sometime this year anyway?
What else does this mean to us? What about all the other stuff that Mirage planned for the 25th anniversary among their comics plans? Will we not see the TMNT Vol 1 tpb at all? The Mirage Universe book? The Forever War trade and mini? I mean this could cripple all this from coming out at all. What is going to be Mirages solutions to all these planned books? Buy them direct from Mirage, via TMNT V4? Ouch for me. The Canadian dollar dropping doesn't help me at all. And I'd prefer not to incur shipping and handling costs added to them.
I agree with everyone when the TMNT have come back into the public eye again this 2nd surgence of mass fame, the classic comics version of the TMNT shouldn't have been so hidden from the public eye. But I still think Mirage is just too small and nothing still could've changed this. The TMNT as a property, is something very generational. Every 10 years it can come back to a new generation of children. But the old TMNT in the direct comic book market just can't be improved. All small comic publishers are in trouble now, not just Mirage. Should Mirage have done better? Possibly. I'm not sure the art of Jim Lawson is all at fault entirely now. I thinks its execution to some extant and long term intent. Mirages thinking just wasn't in any of these.
The old TMNT vol 1 comic had high print numbers later on, due to the first TMNT craze. Look at the first 2 issues of TMNT V4, they had the highest orders among that series print numbers, 10,000+. If it'd stayed like that and Tales was like this too, all TMNT comics may not be threatened by Diamonds new order policy. But the numbers dropped to nearly a 5th of that among both books (technically). Why? Its also the comic stores. They only order what sells for them and what the loyal customers choose to read. Which isn't many of us TMNT readers. Its the whole market thats at fault. But for the TMNT to not be in more recognition in its own industry is a shame for sure among Mirages faults, I can agree with this.
I just hope all the planned trades aren't jeopardized. I was looking forward to this. But how many of us were actually going to order the Mirage Universe, Forever War and the TMNT V1 TPB? The latter most of us have in previous releases. Didn't Tristan Jones tell us again the sales for that trade would determine the future releases of other trades. Geez, great timing Diamond. It may not be an anniversary after all.

[Andrew NDB]

The people buying the book are pretty niche and the book itself is mostly kept afloat on the good graces of Peter. Don't forget... it's already losing money, often times.

I only expect this may mean a price raise. I think on the average Tales does about 3,000 copies or a bit more. That's a bit of a buffer.

If the plug is pulled on Tales, it won't be because of this.

[Andrew NDB]

The people buying the book are pretty niche and the book itself is mostly kept afloat on the good graces of Peter. Don't forget... it's already losing money, often times.

I only expect this may mean a price raise. I think on the average Tales does about 3,000 copies or a bit more. That's a bit of a buffer.

If the plug is pulled on Tales, it won't be because of this.

I take that back, partially. I just looked at November's sales figures... #52 of Tales only pulled in 2,381 copies. In October or September Tales didn't even make the top 300. In August Tales #49 ranked #292 and did 2,361 copies. As a frame of reference, I looked up Tales of the TMNT #5 from October 2004 and it ranked at #213 with 4,200 copies sold.

Still, 2,300ish is above the minimum limit imposed by Diamond with a small price jack. Just... not by much. But from any sales/printing standpoint... that's scarily well within the danger zone. We can now say with 100% certainty that Tales is being kept afloat by Mirage/Peter, for better or worse.

I predict Tales will become some kind of Wowio/limited print run orderable exclusively from Mirage like the last issue of Vol. 4, or will otherwise become anthology-based and only come out sporadically in TPBs. Though probably not the latter because Mirage doesn't want to deal with Barnes and Noble and all that.

[Roseangelo]

I take that back, partially. I just looked at November's sales figures... #52 of Tales only pulled in 2,381 copies. In October or September Tales didn't even make the top 300. In August Tales #49 ranked #292 and did 2,361 copies.

Still, that's above the minimum limit imposed by Diamond. Just... not by much. But from any sales/printing standpoint... that's scarily well within the danger zone. We can now say with 100% certainty that Tales is being kept afloat by Mirage/Peter, for better or worse.

Gee, someone didn't read the second link. :roll:

[trustno1]

so garys messing around is the bullet in the stomach and diamond will be the mercy kill?

[Andrew NDB]

Gee, someone didn't read the second link. :roll:

Why are you so mean to me? :)

[Andrew NDB]

so garys messing around is the bullet in the stomach and diamond will be the mercy kill?

I don't know if I'd look at it that way. But in many ways... the TMNT as a franchise has had its kneecaps blown out from the image the larger-media has created and continues to encourage. If even the comic books go away then that, my friends, is truly the final bullet to the brain. The last bastion.

For the foreseeable future.

[Buslady]

they should just go internet with it all. it's cheaper to post it, I'll pay cover price for each issue, I don't care. I want my TMNT!

[Dragon Turtle]

I don't know if I'd look at it that way. But in many ways... the TMNT as a franchise has had its kneecaps blown out from the image the larger-media has created and continues to encourage. If even the comic books go away then that, my friends, is truly the final bullet to the brain. The last bastion.

For the foreseeable future.


The TMNT comic franchise has been damaged more by Mirage's neglect then the larger-media, not even Marvel or DC can keep an ongoing comic going after a two year lay off.

[DMC362]

At my comic shop the only turtle comics sold are the ones me and another guy have on our pull list. He stop displaying the comics years ago because of low sales. because of this there are no back issues to speak of.

I am looking forward to the Universe book and Forever War

[notebook]

yknow, given its relative geographic proximity to mirage hq, it's pretty ironic that i live in boston and have to do all my tmnt shopping, from action figures to comics, online. us fans dont have to be told to buy the comics, cause as fans, we (generally) will. its just too bad grabbing a wider audience doesn't seem to be part of the game plan.

tales is great. it reminds me of archie but with better writing, art, and layouts. it would be unfortunate to see it go,as it really is the most consistent tmnt title i've ever read (i havent read vol. 2-4 yet, and probably wont unless they get collected)

[Andrew NDB]

At my comic shop the only turtle comics sold are the ones me and another guy have on our pull list. He stop displaying the comics years ago because of low sales. because of this there are no back issues to speak of.

And no stores in Washington that I've been to carry the comic anymore outside of special order. One guy I asked, "Spy Comics" I think in Federal Way, not long after the last movie came out told me that he "couldn't pay to give the TMNT comics away," let alone put them on his shelves anymore. Ouch.

[Ninjinister]

Comic Book Ink in Tacoma had the movie prequels and adaptation on the shelves, as well as the Raphael mini-series, but other than that I have to request the series.

[Cipher]

I've found a comic shop in my hometown that has by far the most extensive collection of everything I've ever seen. Last time I was home I grabbed a large haul of both new and (very) old TMNT issues. But I understand that's the irregularity and trades in bookstores should've been a priority years ago.

[Kendamu]

So, in otherwords, to contribute to the numbers needed to keep it alive I shouldn't buy directly from Mirage anymore?

[Roseangelo]

tales is great. it reminds me of archie but with better writing, art, and layouts. it would be unfortunate to see it go,as it really is the most consistent tmnt title i've ever read (i havent read vol. 2-4 yet, and probably wont unless they get collected)

Wow, I couldn't disagree with these statements more.

So, in otherwords, to contribute to the numbers needed to keep it alive I shouldn't buy directly from Mirage anymore?

Is there a reason you wouldn't get it locally? It'd be considerably cheaper for you.

Here's (http://www.diamondcomics.com/public/default.asp?t=1&m=1&c=3&s=237&ai=79171&ssd=) another list for people to digest. It's the top 50 independent comics of December, not necessarily all of which are in the top 300 overall. TMNT ain't in sight.

[OA]

You know, I'm a frequent member at other comic book forums and most people don't even KNOW that the TMNT have a title out right now. I mean, these are hardcore fans of the media in general, where they pick up loads of books spanning various titles and publishers, from DC to Marvel to Indies, etc. And these people for the most part have no cluse theres a book out.

And that IMO is what Mirage needs. Sure the casual fan walking through the bookstore might pick up a trade or 2 and the hardcore fans like us will buy directly from them. But what they need to go is go back to basics, go after the what originally brought them success: the comic fan. These are the ones who'll keep coming back for more books. Most of those top selling books are bought by people who are into a wide variety of titles. Back in the day, CBG and other outlets were the way to go. I don't have the awswers to how they should get the word, but what they are doing right not is definately not working.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

As I've said before, TMNT related comics are the only ones I actively collect these days, and if they go under, I have no reason to visit my local CBG except maybe a couple of times a year. I may pick up HeroClix, an issue of Hellboy or two, and/or a character guide when I'm there, but the TMNT is the reason I go.

Now Heroclix is gone too.:(

As much as I like having a physical copy of a comic, going digital would be a lot better than nothing at all.

[Andrew NDB]

Comic Book Ink in Tacoma

That place any good, by the way? Lots of backissue bins for older comics (like DC and such)?

[Andrew NDB]

As much as I like having a physical copy of a comic, going digital would be a lot better than nothing at all.

I dunno... without a tangible, printed, published copy, I think I wouldn't give an online-only comic the same attention. In fact, I probably wouldn't look at it in a light too much unlike fanfiction.

And I hate being chained to a computer to read anything. I want to be able to lay on my belly on my bed, drinking martinis and turning pages, or sitting on the deck with a comic, smoking a cigarette... I don't want a comic book to hold me hostage at a monitor.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

I dunno... without a tangible, printed, published copy, I think I wouldn't give an online-only comic the same attention. In fact, I probably wouldn't look at it in a light too much unlike fanfiction.

Even though it's coming from Mirage? :tconfuse:

I'm not too much of a fan of digital comics either, but if that's what it would take to keep the TMNT comics coming...

[Andrew NDB]

Even though it's coming from Mirage? :tconfuse:

Yeah. I mean, does anyone really hold "Muscle & Faith" in the same regard or standing as the other comics (or to ask a follow-up question, did anyone even know it existed/exists until I mentioned it just now? i mean, aside from me, Spengler, Rose, and 2-3 fellow diehard fans?)?

It's not really fair, but the answer is no... and the answer is inexorably linked to it having been a web-only deal. And I'm not jumping on the "it's better than nothing" bandwagon. It kind of feels like -- to me -- for example, if you're a guy who enjoys having sex with an attractive woman on a regular basis (I do)... say, suddenly you face the prospect of going to prison. While someone might say to you that pounding your cellmate from behind might be "better than nothing"... I say it's probably just not going to be the same.

But this is just my thoughts. Regardless, if TMNT went online-only like a lemming I'd probably pay the $2 or whatever to download the damn PDFs. Like a geek, though, I'd probably find ways to arrange the pages and print them and staple them and bag and board them on my own. I bet some of you guys would, too.

[Ninjinister]

Now Heroclix is gone too.:(



Wait, what?

That place any good, by the way? Lots of backissue bins for older comics (like DC and such)?

There's a lot of backissue bins, but I couldn't tell you the contents. I just go in, get what I need, and get out.

[Dragon Turtle]

And that IMO is what Mirage needs. Sure the casual fan walking through the bookstore might pick up a trade or 2 and the hardcore fans like us will buy directly from them. But what they need to go is go back to basics, go after the what originally brought them success: the comic fan. These are the ones who'll keep coming back for more books. Most of those top selling books are bought by people who are into a wide variety of titles. Back in the day, CBG and other outlets were the way to go. I don't have the awswers to how they should get the word, but what they are doing right not is definately not working.

The first thing Mirage needs to do is to have someone is out there constantly pushing the books towards comicbook related websites, magazines, and conventions, ideally that person would be Peter Laird, since his name would be a bigger draw then anyone else.

Even though it's coming from Mirage? :tconfuse:

I'm not too much of a fan of digital comics either, but if that's what it would take to keep the TMNT comics coming...

It would be nice to have brand new digital comics at the ninjaturtles website, but if Mirage decides to close up shop, they would probably farm out the TMNT comics to another publisher.

[Roseangelo]

The first thing Mirage needs to do is to have someone is out there constantly pushing the books towards comicbook related websites, magazines, and conventions, ideally that person would be Peter Laird, since his name would be a bigger draw then anyone else.

No, they just need to start taking making comic books seriously again.

[Andrew NDB]

It would be nice to have brand new digital comics at the ninjaturtles website, but if Mirage decides to close up shop, they would probably farm out the TMNT comics to another publisher.

I doubt they'd "farm" out the TMNT comics to other publishers, but they'd probably be receptive to the idea in a similar sense to how they let Erik and his studio run with them at Image for Volume 3.

But the thing is... this time around I don't see any studios chomping at the bit to take a risk on a property that's been barely hitting 2000 copies an issue for the past few years under its original studio.

But never say never... some studio like Dynamite or IDW might put together a crack team with some names behind it with a strong, visceral vision of a TMNT resurgence in the comic book form with enough "credit" in their names alone to have a shot at putting a book out there that will sell well. If it ends up as some kind of reboot amalgam of the cartoons or movies or something I wouldn't be interested in it personally, but I could see such a thing happening and working.

[Dragon Turtle]

No, they just need to start taking making comic books seriously again.

Wouldn't raising the books profile with a comic book community that barely knows of its existence, be the same as Mirage taking the comic books seriously again?

I doubt they'd "farm" out the TMNT comics to other publishers, but they'd probably be receptive to the idea in a similar sense to how they let Erik and his studio run with them at Image for Volume 3.


That is what I meant, not that Mirage was still going to write the books themselves and have another company publish them, at this point Mirage may be better suited to licensing the turtles to another publisher then producing the comic themselves.


But the thing is... this time around I don't see any studios chomping at the bit to take a risk on a property that's been barely hitting 2000 copies an issue for the past few years under its original studio.


I don't believe we would be having these types of conversations if we all agreed Mirage was doing everything possible to ensure the success of the ninja turtle comics, I've seen the comicbook sales list, I've seen the books that sale better then TMNT, and I have to say that TMNT should be selling better than it currently does. As for demand, if studios are willing to make comics based off of Galaxy Quest, then there will be a demand for the ninja turtles.

The one thing companies like IDW have over Mirage is the ability to cross market, if half the people who saw ads in Transformers for a new TMNT book and decided to check it out, then you already have greatly increased your readership, even Galaxy Quest is selling around 3,300 copies.


But never say never... some studio like Dynamite or IDW might put together a crack team with some names behind it with a strong, visceral vision of a TMNT resurgence in the comic book form with enough "credit" in their names alone to have a shot at putting a book out there that will sell well. If it ends up as some kind of reboot amalgam of the cartoons or movies or something I wouldn't be interested in it personally, but I could see such a thing happening and working.

It would make sense to take advantage of the old cartoon market, and if it does prove successful there would be no reason not to produce a TMNT comic closer to the Mirage comics, IDW produces several Transformer books based on different universes.

[Roseangelo]

Wouldn't raising the books profile with a comic book community that barely knows of its existence, be the same as Mirage taking the comic books seriously again?

No, they need to make books that are going to actually appeal to the wider comic book audience before any amount of marketing is going to do any good. How many casual readers do you expect to pick this (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/talesvol2/54/54.htm) up and actually get what the hell is going on?

[Kendamu]

Is there a reason you wouldn't get it locally? It'd be considerably cheaper for you.

Here's (http://www.diamondcomics.com/public/default.asp?t=1&m=1&c=3&s=237&ai=79171&ssd=) another list for people to digest. It's the top 50 independent comics of December, not necessarily all of which are in the top 300 overall. TMNT ain't in sight.

If it isn't Marvel, Archie, or DC then I can't get it locally because Mirage doesn't put its comics in regular book stores. So, I just have to order them from Mirage or an online comic shop.

[notebook]

man, that list of indie comics is disheartening.
i have no idea what the hell 80% of those titles are, but i guess when a multi-million dollar 25 year old brand cant hold its own against them, it's just another sign of the times.

another thing is though that i usually wait around 5-6 months between buying issues, since I'd rather get a bunch at a time and save on shipping. i'm planning on making another sweep circa issue 56 or so.
the last issue i got in actual store (not even a local store; i was on vacation in manhattan) was 48 or 49 but i didnt understand what was going on since it took place in vol. 2 and vol. 2 is 15 years old, uncollected, and hard to find, even online, so...:|
i did see the michelangelo miniseries there, but i didnt bother with it since the art was so ugly.

i think its fair to say that the franchise has been mismanaged (at least when it comes to preserving its longevity), especially in the past couple years, but at this point it's a snake eat the tail kinda deal. oh well, to quote peter laird, it's not the end of the world.

[Kendamu]

No, they need to make books that are going to actually appeal to the wider comic book audience before any amount of marketing is going to do any good. How many casual readers do you expect to pick this (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/talesvol2/54/54.htm) up and actually get what the hell is going on?
"Why is everyone Raphael?"

[Dragon Turtle]

No, they need to make books that are going to actually appeal to the wider comic book audience before any amount of marketing is going to do any good. How many casual readers do you expect to pick this (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/talesvol2/54/54.htm) up and actually get what the hell is going on?


That has been Tales format since the beginning, and to be honest there is nothing wrong with Tales serving as complimentary satellite book, the problem lies in the fact the main TMNT comic has been nowhere to be seen for years with only one book released in the last two years.

But again, no matter what format the books take, if no one knows about them, no one will buy them.

[Archon_Turtle]

Take this with as much salt as you see fit:

Howdy Stephan,

At the moment Mirage's comics are not in danger of being dropped, but
this is certainly alarming for the future of B&W comics as a whole.

Thanks for writing!

Cheers!
Dan Berger
Mirage Studios' Official Web Dude
http://www.ninjaturtles.com

[trustno1]

glad someone asked. thanks archon

[Archon_Turtle]

glad someone asked. thanks archon

it's what I do :-)

[Roseangelo]

That has been Tales format since the beginning, and to be honest there is nothing wrong with Tales serving as complimentary satellite book, the problem lies in the fact the main TMNT comic has been nowhere to be seen for years with only one book released in the last two years.

But again, no matter what format the books take, if no one knows about them, no one will buy them.

My point was more that expecting high sales for a book that relies so heavily on characters that the vast majority of people don't know a thing about is expecting too much. And then reading this (http://www.tmnt25.com/green_team/tales_of_the_tmnt.html) just makes me more confused than I'd be not reading it.

The "if no one knows about them, no one will buy them" argument is old and tired. You know why a handful of sites started reviewing Tales a few months back? 'Cause Mirage was making an attempt at getting the word out. Did anything come of that effort? Nope. Sales are still going down and I don't even know if all those sites are still paying attention to the book.

I realize what Tales is supposed to be, but it's not working as it currently exists. Fix the book, then fix the marketing, then maybe it makes a decent showing.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

I agree that the most plausible way to grow the fanbase would be to have comics that are easier for non-fans to understand. At this point, that would require either:

-a reboot, like post-crisis or Ultimate Ninja Turtles.

-To continue writing "Tales" stories, but have them take place during volume 1, while re-releasing the volume one comics.

-Continuing TMNT Adventures? I know that series eventually developed its own "universe" of characters and settings, but having it linked to the old cartoon would have to help a little.

I thought I remembered there being a little bit of hype when volume 4 first came out, it makes sense that people not understanding the story is what made that hype die down quickly. I know I was excited when I saw Vol. 4 at the comic book store, but at a time when I hadn't read the old comics, I didn't pick it up because I didn't know what the hell was happening.

[Dragon Turtle]

The "if no one knows about them, no one will buy them" argument is old and tired.


Yet still valid.


You know why a handful of sites started reviewing Tales a few months back? 'Cause Mirage was making an attempt at getting the word out. Did anything come of that effort? Nope. Sales are still going down and I don't even know if all those sites are still paying attention to the book.


You didn't honestly expect a major jump in sales after a few months of a few reviews did you? After years of neglect? I am afraid there is no quick fix to significantly boost sales, unless you had a well publicized reboot/renumbering of the main comics, but even then it probably would have to be tied into a more high profiled project such as, a movie, tv show, direct-to-video project, or anniversary, but as far as I know, no new book seems to be forthcoming.

And as far as Mirage "making an attempt at getting the word out", I would like to know who at Mirage is in charge of getting the word out, it's not just Tristan contacting these places himself? And, yes, if left alone these sites will eventually begin to ignore Tales (just like some have done in the past), that's why Mirage has to constantly keep on pushing them.


I realize what Tales is supposed to be, but it's not working as it currently exists. Fix the book, then fix the marketing, then maybe it makes a decent showing.

All the stories for Tales have been written out for the rest of the year, and Mirage isn't interested in changing the current format until then.

[Coola Yagami]

So basically the comics are gonna tank and Mirage is too stubborn to actually do anything about it...?

[trustno1]

And then reading this (http://www.tmnt25.com/green_team/tales_of_the_tmnt.html) just makes me more confused than I'd be not reading it.

now i am confused. what do you mean? there is nothing confusing about that

The "if no one knows about them, no one will buy them" argument is old and tired. You know why a handful of sites started reviewing Tales a few months back? 'Cause Mirage was making an attempt at getting the word out. Did anything come of that effort? Nope. Sales are still going down and I don't even know if all those sites are still paying attention to the book.

how many reviews have there been? you think things happen immediately? like two reviews are going to make a difference?

I realize what Tales is supposed to be, but it's not working as it currently exists. Fix the book, then fix the marketing, then maybe it makes a decent showing.

again, nothing you say can happen immediately. sure they can fix it, then fix everything else, but you keep talking like it needs to happen now and for it to happen now they need to have prepared a year ago for the change. if change comes it won't be until next year and by then the book might not be around.

dragon is exactly rightw with everything he has said

[DK2]

I think another problem is if they leased the TMNT to another publisher then they need to be monitored with care but not outright control. They gave carte blanche to Image for TMNT V3, but gave restrictions to Dreamwaves interpertation of that cartoon comic. That was the failure of the Dreamwave TMNT 2003 comic. Yet it showed that with a somewhat quality product, the sales numbers can be good. The art was good, colors good, the writer was Peter David, orders were high. But I think David complained that he was restricted that the first 3 -4 issues had to adapt the early episodes and had to serve as introductory like to the reader. He was very upset that he couldn't get the book up fresh from the start. Then it was too late to undo as peoples perceptions these were adapting episodes and then the plug was pulled all of a sudden. This was before Dreamwave even folded. I think Mirage had something to do with this. If anyone can remind me what happened with this comic please post.
But when you see something like this then its stopped, again Mirage is just stupid. Maybe this TMNT comic could've been still running right now. This is the benchmark that shows someone else doing TMNT comics can be good. Even Image never could keep the limelight of the title out there. Image was no better than Mirage right now. Sales/orders just kept waning for V3. So again Mirages thinking just boggles the mind.

[TristanHuwJones]

Peter David told me that it was canned because Dreamwave wasn't prepared to pay the licensing costs. It might be that Mirage asked too much in the eyes of Dreamwave, but remember, this is a company that was notorious for ripping off its talents and squandering money on cars and such.

[Archon_Turtle]

I blame Tristan....for everything....DAMN YOU TRISTAN! *Shakes Fist*


:-P

[Archon_Turtle]

I doubt they'd "farm" out the TMNT comics to other publishers, but they'd probably be receptive to the idea in a similar sense to how they let Erik and his studio run with them at Image for Volume 3.

But the thing is... this time around I don't see any studios chomping at the bit to take a risk on a property that's been barely hitting 2000 copies an issue for the past few years under its original studio.

But never say never... some studio like Dynamite or IDW might put together a crack team with some names behind it with a strong, visceral vision of a TMNT resurgence in the comic book form with enough "credit" in their names alone to have a shot at putting a book out there that will sell well. If it ends up as some kind of reboot amalgam of the cartoons or movies or something I wouldn't be interested in it personally, but I could see such a thing happening and working.

Yeah, I could totally see someone looking at it as a challenge rather than a risk.

EDIT: Wow, I totally just double posted. I fail. :-(

[TristanHuwJones]

You may have uncovered my evil plans, but you're too late! TOO LATE! AAH-HA-HAH!

[TristanHuwJones]

Yeah, I could totally see someone looking at it as a challenge rather than a risk.

EDIT: Wow, I totally just double posted. I fail. :-(

Still, IDW made Ghost Whisperer work. Surely TMNT would be a walk in the park comparatively.

[turkishproverb]

Peter David told me that it was canned because Dreamwave wasn't prepared to pay the licensing costs. It might be that Mirage asked too much in the eyes of Dreamwave, but remember, this is a company that was notorious for ripping off its talents and squandering money on cars and such.

Given that that was also the reason for TITAN canceling their Turtle Magazine, I think Mirage might be overestimating the amount they should charge.
Still, IDW made Ghost Whisperer work. Surely TMNT would be a walk in the park comparatively.

Yea, I'd love IDW to take a shot. Or SLG, but they're slower than all getout.

Or they could just nicely give the title back to Image, as long as certain creaters (Lefeild, Mcfarlane) are kept away.

[TristanHuwJones]

Given that that was also the reason for TITAN canceling their Turtle Magazine, I think Mirage might be overestimating the amount they should charge.


Yea, I'd love IDW to take a shot. Or SLG, but they're slower than all getout.

Or they could just nicely give the title back to Image, as long as certain creaters (Lefeild, Mcfarlane) are kept away.

After Gargoyles, if it did go anywhere, SLG is the last place I'd want it.

I had no idea that was the reason behind Titan dropping it. I was under the assumption it was simply sales.

[Vegita-San]

I agree that the most plausible way to grow the fanbase would be to have comics that are easier for non-fans to understand. At this point, that would require either:

-a reboot, like post-crisis or Ultimate Ninja Turtles.


Personally, I would LOVE a reboot. Take the best from each franchise and merge it into one.

The art style of the 2K3 series, some of the character development and history from 2k3. Some villains from the old show, villains and heroes from Archie, and merge it all into one universe.

At least with the new show as a basis starting from issue 1 and moving on, people might not be so confused.


----
Re: IDW

They did not impress me with their Ghostbusters outing, and that was the first book I ever read from them. The art was good, but the story? Blah..

I don't need to see a more 'adult' Turtles. In the Ghostbusters book, where GB is supposed to be a familly venture... Venkman gets possessed and the ghost
that does it spends his time sleeping with prostitutes....the displaced spirt of Venkman gains ghostly super powers and basically rips a demon to shreds. Ugh.

[jerome]

Personally, I would LOVE a reboot. Take the best from each franchise and merge it into one.

The art style of the 2K3 series, some of the character development and history from 2k3. Some villains from the old show, villains and heroes from Archie, and merge it all into one universe.

At least with the new show as a basis starting from issue 1 and moving on, people might not be so confused.


----
Re: IDW

They did not impress me with their Ghostbusters outing, and that was the first book I ever read from them. The art was good, but the story? Blah..

I don't need to see a more 'adult' Turtles. In the Ghostbusters book, where GB is supposed to be a familly venture... Venkman gets possessed and the ghost
that does it spends his time sleeping with prostitutes....the displaced spirt of Venkman gains ghostly super powers and basically rips a demon to shreds. Ugh.

i liked idw's ghostbusters. Was it the best? no but it was better than the 88mph studios "legion" mini. And if you are worried about the prostitutes thing then it must really bother you when Ray gets a blowjob from a ghost in the original film:roll: get over it. Ghostbusters isn't anymore for kids than vol.1 tmnt.

[TristanHuwJones]

Gotta disagree, I thought Legion was superior to The Other Side in every way. I wouldn't judge IDW on that though, their Transformers work, GI JOE, and Silent Hill books are all fantastic and all their own IP's are pretty damn slick as well.

[cormano]

Mirage killed the comics by basically making it impossible for casual fans to get interested in them. I, personally love the comics but when they keep going with the same old style and do nothing to punch them up or keep with the times then nobody is going to care. You don't see any graphic novels in book stores (that would help keep the turles in the minds of comic fans), and really anything published by Mirage is kind of drab and not very eye catching.

I mean when you walk into any decent comic shop there are so many titles to choose from and quite honestly Mirage and the Turtles offer relatively little to stand out from the others. Lets face it, Mirage is very "small time" still trying to hang in there with the big boys. They probably should at least consider crossovers with comics publishers who can actually sell comic books with greater success.
I disagree with a lot of this. Tales is a great title for casual fans. It's mainly one shot stories, so it's easy to jump on and there is a variety of different art styles, but the covers are always bright and usually have a lot of red and green, they definitely stick out on the shelf. What else do you want to make them stick out? A return to 90's chrome covers? Crossovers between publishers aren't popular any more, and for good reason, they usually suck.

I agree, not putting trades in bookstores is definitely a big mistake, though.

[cormano]

No, they need to make books that are going to actually appeal to the wider comic book audience before any amount of marketing is going to do any good. How many casual readers do you expect to pick this (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/talesvol2/54/54.htm) up and actually get what the hell is going on?

The Fugitoid and the Utroms got a lot of attention in the 2k3 cartoon, I would think this issue would be of interest to fans of the show that were curious about the comics.

[DK2]

I know its the economic crisis and recession thats killing the economy but I thinks its sad when the distributer starts telling the small publishers to raise their cover prices just to meet their price point per book for distribution. I mean we're already griping about cover prices from the big buys and Diamonds telling the little guys maybe to raise prices? The distributer determines the cover prices now in the comics market? Geez. Most indie books have no color and lucky for the few that do, but the no color ones hardly justifies a cover price increase at all.

[junkboy]

I disagree that color should be very important for the prices of comic books. Who can say here that Marvel or DC's comics that are full of silly ads , printed on thin paper and at the price of 3.99 for just 22 or 24 pgs of story , justify that price? ( ok, DC generally give some extra pages for 3.99 issues and they are still trying to keep prices at 2.99, not making every damn mini-series price directly 3.99 even the number of pages are same, and there is completely no difference than a long-run standard 2.99 comic - this said, in a few issues Marvel is making New Avengers 3.99, too - not surprised )
Mirage has been giving us a much more entertaining book each month with a lot more pages and thicker paper, with lots of extra stuff in it sometimes, without changing the cover price at the months of page increase as the Big 2 Devils mostly do.
If it will work, done that way, i am ok with a price increase. Most comic readers do not know about a TMNT comic anyways, so if Mirage is unable to get new readers thanks to their ideology about trade books and stuff, they must think and act mainly centered on their present fan base.
how many ppl here would give 3.99 for Tales here ? I would... but Mirage must work harder ( or even if they are working hard, they must find a better way to show that to us dedicated fans ) By that , they may be able to prevent the negative reaction of some fans that may think they are the ones betrayed by that price increase ( you know, there are lots of fans, going to buy a TMNT comic each month to the store or an online shop, but not going into forums, or newsarama or blogs to be aware of the decisions of Diamonds or financial status of comics industry. ) I live in Turkey and get my TMNT books as soon as they are released from an online shop in US. I pay nearly 10 dollars of shipping ( ofc i add some other trades and some issues to the package as well to justify that shipping value ). I used to buy from my LCS but the book prices are so high there , and the guy was bringing Tales only for me , so when i dropped my issue purchases from there, the guy was somewhat happy cause he was going on to bring issues for me just cause we were long time friends. He does not bring issues anymore. Just selling trades.


Those are all thoughts, anything can happen, But Mirage must really decide quickly on what to do.Waiting for sales amounts each month to catch the threshold in fingers crossed position is the downfall imo.

I think there is huge possibility for Tales to follow the path of Vol.4. I mean, limited sales directly from Mirage, but lets hope it does not end up that way. ( Even tho it is much more better than a web-only book which i will hate reading in front of a disgusting screen )

The future does not look bright, but there is only one fact that TMNT is my fave. comic ( not the best comic in my buying list, but the one i enjoy most cause of its history on me ). I hope Mirage manages to find a reasonable solution , in case the things get worse.

[Daniel Orduna]

Mirage killed the comics by basically making it impossible for casual fans to get interested in them. I, personally love the comics but when they keep going with the same old style and do nothing to punch them up or keep with the times then nobody is going to care. You don't see any graphic novels in book stores (that would help keep the turles in the minds of comic fans), and really anything published by Mirage is kind of drab and not very eye catching.

I mean when you walk into any decent comic shop there are so many titles to choose from and quite honestly Mirage and the Turtles offer relatively little to stand out from the others. Lets face it, Mirage is very "small time" still trying to hang in there with the big boys. They probably should at least consider crossovers with comics publishers who can actually sell comic books with greater success.


agree ¡¡¡¡

[CyberCubed]

Rose, why do you always jump to the worst possible conclusions in terms of what happens with the comics? Dan Berger said this shouldn't affect Tales in any way.

[Daniel Orduna]

TMNT is the only comics I collect so if there done that would suck because I would just be done with comics then.

me 2....and I spend allot of money on them

[Roseangelo]

Rose, why do you always jump to the worst possible conclusions in terms of what happens with the comics? Dan Berger said this shouldn't affect Tales in any way.

What I reported is the reality of the situation, period. And, if you must know, I was tipped off to that reality by a Mirage insider, which is why I reported it.

[Daniel Orduna]

Gotta disagree, I thought Legion was superior to The Other Side in every way. I wouldn't judge IDW on that though, their Transformers work, GI JOE, and Silent Hill books are all fantastic and all their own IP's are pretty damn slick as well.


hey tristan...do u know where mirage send tales of tmnt 2 mexico?

[Raph ninja]

tales of the tmnt better stay cuz without it i cant survive!

[TristanHuwJones]

hey tristan...do u know where mirage send tales of tmnt 2 mexico?

Can't say I do mate, as I live in Australia. I did a quick google and found these two on the Free Comic Book Day website. You might have more luck.

LA CRIPTA
AV DE LAS AMERICAS 491 LOCAL20
CD JUAREZ
MEXICO
32350
Phone: 9155850999

and

COLLECTOR'S LAIR
5 SUR 2907 COL CHULAVISTA
PUEBLA
MEXICO
72420
Phone: 012222718087

SPARTA COMICS
CALLE 5 DE MAYO 8 EST. REFORMA ULTIMO PISO
LOCAL 81
PUEBLA
MEXICO
C.P. 7200
Phone: 525556989009

[trustno1]

What I reported is the reality of the situation, period. And, if you must know, I was tipped off to that reality by a Mirage insider, which is why I reported it.

isnt mirage only like 5 people anyway? rose and peter seem to hate each other, dan said it wont be affecting tales, gary does not speak to anyone, jim doesnt have much todo with the fans beside his blog, which just leaves murphy who left the comics.

[turkishproverb]

Wait, what?

Wizkids shut down, but a couple of companies are vying for the rights to their games, so there is hope.

[Coola Yagami]

Can't say I do mate, as I live in Australia. I did a quick google and found these two on the Free Comic Book Day website. You might have more luck.

LA CRIPTA
AV DE LAS AMERICAS 491 LOCAL20
CD JUAREZ
MEXICO
32350
Phone: 9155850999

and

COLLECTOR'S LAIR
5 SUR 2907 COL CHULAVISTA
PUEBLA
MEXICO
72420
Phone: 012222718087

SPARTA COMICS
CALLE 5 DE MAYO 8 EST. REFORMA ULTIMO PISO
LOCAL 81
PUEBLA
MEXICO
C.P. 7200
Phone: 525556989009



Has anyone checked those places to see if they have TMNT stuff?

[Lord Nightwalker]

This is why I wish they still had a subscription service. I'd be a subscriber again and cut Diamond out completely. Anyone know If Advanced is still around? Way back in the day our local comic shop switched to them, they were pretty much just like Diamond? Could that be a possible route?

[DK2]

Advanced Comics catalog wasn't that from Capital Comics dist? They folded and eventually got absorbed by Diamond, if my memory is correct. That Haven Dist maybe a a true route for Mirage but I don't how many comic stores will want to deal with another dist. beyond Diamond.
I even looked into Havens site as a guest and they have some Tales issues, TMNT Vol.4 and the Leo mini issues as backstock. Doesn't that not sound good already for Mirage?

[Ninjinister]

Wizkids shut down, but a couple of companies are vying for the rights to their games, so there is hope.

I heard that the rights defaulted back to Topps. After all, I've seen two new releases since I heard they closed their doors.

[junkboy]

I am not too into the Mirage crew as some ppl in this site, but i think we should not be that much pessimistic as well. Yes, there is a huge possibility that this new Diamond situation can affect Tales badly, but this thread shows as if we all are more anxious about the comic's future than the ones making and publishing them. Or Mirage crew is just too silent, not expressin their true concerns. We all are loyal fans i guess ( at least ppl writing in the comics section of this community ) But it is my belief that the only thing we can do is going on to support Mirage as best and trying to spread TMNT comics lore across more popular comic fans. I went to the theater to see Valkyrie with some of the buddies from the local comic shop and i went there with Kevin Eastman's Artobiography like a nerdy, to show them true TMNT... I had convinced lots of ppl before, to buy issue 36 and 50 after showing them Paul's superb art and fitting dark-style storytelling of Tristan.

The remaining things to do are just Mirage's responsibility. I truly hope and believe thay are fully aware.

[Kendamu]

Advanced Comics catalog wasn't that from Capital Comics dist? They folded and eventually got absorbed by Diamond, if my memory is correct. That Haven Dist maybe a a true route for Mirage but I don't how many comic stores will want to deal with another dist. beyond Diamond.
I even looked into Havens site as a guest and they have some Tales issues, TMNT Vol.4 and the Leo mini issues as backstock. Doesn't that not sound good already for Mirage?
Midtown has backissues of Batman. I don't see a problem with backisues being available on a website.

[CyberCubed]

Is Tales still in danger of ending? Has Mirage ran out of money for publishing?

[Andrew NDB]

Is Tales still in danger of ending?

Yes, it is.

Has Mirage ran out of money for publishing?

No, it hasn't.

[TristanHuwJones]

Unfortunately the comics are barely breaking even. Apparently sales dipped another 60 or so last month, which isn't good. If it continues falling at a rate like that each month it's a pretty sure sign Tales will wrap up. There is always hope though, so we'll see what happens. I think there'll be a clearer idea come June...

[Ninjinister]

Unfortunately the comics are barely breaking even. Apparently sales dipped another 60 or so last month, which isn't good.

Even after #56 was so heavily pimped?

[Andrew NDB]

"Sales" is kind of a deceiving term as it applies to comics. If the dealer support isn't there then they aren't even putting said comic on the shelves for someone to even possibly buy it... so what can you do? You can only then rely on, 1) The existing, hardcore fans, 2) Casual Turtle fans who just chance upon www.ninjaturtles.com and realize there's a TMNT comic still being published who then can go to their comic store and special order Tales of the TMNT.

#1 is dwindling for various reasons, and most of #2 probably would just glance to see if there's Bebops or Krangs or cowabungas inside or something to transport them back to the sanctity of their formative years, then would put it back on the rack.

[Ninjinister]

I'm gonna have to side on Andrew on this one, at least on the part I'm certain about. Other than the movie prequels/adaption, and bizarrely, Bad Moon Rising, there is only one TMNT issue showing up in my local store a month, and it's reserved for me.

[TristanHuwJones]

Fair call. To clarify, sales generally applies to the numbers the comic shops pick up. Sales ultimately comes down to the comic shop, because they have to buy them to sell them, and as most people are aware, the comic shops don't really stock TMNT these days, so those numbers usually come down to the people who have been reading it a long time (outside of a few stores that have a couple on the shelves). So those 60 units could be the extras those few stores decided to keep on shelves no longer being ordered, or it could be longterm readers just dropping the book. It's still a sold unit as far as Diamond are concerned.

The unfortunate thing is that, while 56 got good reviews and all that, none of it was done early enough for people to get orders in. I'm going to be pimping 59 with Paul, as it just appeared in Previews yesterday... maybe that'll make a bit of a dent.

I keep saying it too, but I rarely see anyone talking about the TMNT comics in any other forums around these days, or giving feedback in reviews. The fanbase here is dwindling and a big part of comic sales is word of mouth. If I see people are talking about something over on CBR or Newsarama, then I check it out. Even if people are talking about something on say a GB forum or a Marvel forum, I'll give it a look in. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, but when people say there's nothing that can be done to help, it's BS. All fans need to do is start talking about things in other forums, particularly when it comes to the comics. It's always good to have discussions with the hardcore fanbase here at the websites devoted to the Turtles, but without the outside interest, the
Casual Turtle fans who just chance upon www.ninjaturtles.com and realize there's a TMNT comic still being published. are only doing just that. There's no real incentive or urge for them to check things out unless they happen to suddenly get nostalgic on some idle Tuesday.

[Andrew NDB]

The unfortunate thing is that, while 56 got good reviews and all that, none of it was done early enough for people to get orders in.

That's something I was fighting for with Highlander Origins: The Kurgan for Dynamite Entertainment. And, for the most part, we did (yes, in time for around when comic stores would be putting in their pre-orders)... yet it simply didn't make any difference. Dealer support wasn't so much as even fazed by interviews and coverage by Wizard Online, Newsarama, MTV Blog, etc.. Tanked.

Really a sordid state of comics, and it's probably only going to get worse. And it's really no one's fault. Comic stores -- the few that remain -- are only willing to bet on the strongest, proven horses.

I almost had the thought, on a grassroots level -- and it kind of sounds lame (though my day job is as a sales manager for a major hotel chain) -- to do a comic book store search on diamondcomics.com and literally do a mass phone-call blitz, state by state, of numerous comic book stores and tell them about the book. This might actually work.

[TristanHuwJones]

That's something I was fighting for with Highlander Origins: The Kurgan for Dynamite Entertainment. And, for the most part, we did (yes, in time for around when comic stores would be putting in their pre-orders)... yet it simply didn't make any difference. Dealer support wasn't so much as even fazed by interviews and coverage by Wizard Online, Newsarama, MTV Blog, etc.. Tanked.

Really a sordid state of comics, and it's probably only going to get worse. And it's really no one's fault. Comic stores -- the few that remain -- are only willing to bet on the strongest, proven horses.

I almost had the thought, on a grassroots level -- and it kind of sounds lame (though my day job is as a sales manager for a major hotel chain) -- to do a comic book store search on diamondcomics.com and literally do a mass phone-call blitz, state by state, of numerous comic book stores and tell them about the book. This might actually work.

It really is a bitch. There's a strong difference between the capabilities of a TMNT comic and a Highlander book though, just in terms of appeal (nothing to do with quality, I've been loving the Highlander books).

If it weren't for the man-hours and probably extensive phone bill, I'd be tempted to do the same!

[Ninjinister]

That's something I was fighting for with Highlander Origins: The Kurgan for Dynamite Entertainment. And, for the most part, we did (yes, in time for around when comic stores would be putting in their pre-orders)... yet it simply didn't make any difference. Dealer support wasn't so much as even fazed by interviews and coverage by Wizard Online, Newsarama, MTV Blog, etc.. Tanked.

Well, I know I've put in my support. Got both issues of Kurgan along with the last three issues of Tales I needed (54, 55, 56). It's just reading them that's the problem... haven't had the time to devote to that yet >.<

Y'know, this is why it makes me sad that Tristan's FCBD idea was turned down. Patrons would have seen a warthog and rhino on the cover, immediately thought of Bebop and Rocksteady, and brought the book home with them. Upon reading it, there would be a good chance they would have been hooked. Instead, we get one of over 9000 issue 1 reprints that will have been released before the year's end.

[junkboy]

I keep saying it too, but I rarely see anyone talking about the TMNT comics in any other forums around these days, or giving feedback in reviews. The fanbase here is dwindling and a big part of comic sales is word of mouth. If I see people are talking about something over on CBR or Newsarama, then I check it out. Even if people are talking about something on say a GB forum or a Marvel forum, I'll give it a look in. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, but when people say there's nothing that can be done to help, it's BS. All fans need to do is start talking about things in other forums, particularly when it comes to the comics.

I am sure that lots of fans are trying to spread the work through forums and facebook ( my facebook turned into a ****** place where i added lots of comic fans from another continent that i have no info about their personalities. Always using facebook for spreading the word. But other than Bla Bla likes this and "I wish they printed trades" b.s. , i am not getting much.
Forums are better yeah, but the end is same there as well. I remember you opening up a thread at Spawn.com Tristan which was a good act. But there as well, the discussion stopped after a certain point. I remember opening lots of threads in other forums and to post stuff from time to time just for keeping the thread alive and fresh. But not recieving many answers or comments is really disheartening.

Mirage should do much more, must work a lot espacially to spread the word of TMNT comic. Not just try to eat the goodies of the past by bumping the original toon ads and 2k3 show. Those 2 shows are a huge market for TMNT i know, but they seem never caring about the comic world much. As if just the word of "TMNT" to be remembered at 25th year is enough to keep the comics going on.
While the phrase of "if there will be a next year" really bugs me, i still do not wanna think negative.
I think that the fans working for the comic to sell more is an act looking alike a bit the fight between Don Quijote and the windmills. The fans really need to see a giant fighting by their side in that battle ( in this case a sleeping giant which is Mirage )
All those said i will still try to spread the word thru all mediums ( i am sure there are lots of fans thinking same way as me ), pessimism does not get you anything. And if it ends badly, at least you know you tried your best.
( hanging myself down from a high building , with some sarcastic Eric Talbot art drawn on my crippled, broken down body, is the last option in my book i guess )

[Andres P.]

Maybe people say already this, but a quick solution would be; Buy two issues and do a gift to a friend, do it for a couple of months, I`ll be doing myself for sure :)

A new comic-book series based on cartoon side by side Tales should be a help, too.

A!

[Nelson]

I think Mirage sould start an advertising campain with the goal or re-branding the franchise.

As you know most of the people associates the Turtles with nostalgia and the Old Toon. To change that, some fans saying that the Mirage universe is more complex, or Mirage making the Turtles comics visible to the consumers (in the racks of a store or in a simple adversitement) with the hopes that it would create interest by itself won't suffice. The people have a perception about the TMNT (that it is kiddie stuff, or any other percepction that keeps them from buying the comic). We need to change that perception BEFORE the people read a single issue. We need to re-brand it.

When I say whe, I mean Mirage.

[Dragon Turtle]

If it weren't for the man-hours and probably extensive phone bill, I'd be tempted to do the same!

If Mirage was truly serious about boosting comic sales they would hire someone to do just this, but for this to happen, someone needs to convince the higher ups that the comics are worth saving.

[Leo656]

With the recession, comics are hurtin' bad in general. The owner of the place I've gone to for almost 10 years just went under last week. It's hard right now. The big companies are just flooding the market with stuff that's guaranteed to sell no matter what, but even they're not doing big business as I understand it. How can books as inconsistent as the TMNT books find a large, sustainable audience amid this mess?

If it were up to me, I'd scrap it all and start from scratch with an almost entirely TPB business model. Y'know how Archie is doing reprint TPBs of their Sonic the Hedgehog comics? Laird and Co. should work a deal to distribute the entire Archie run through TPBs, and then do the same with the Mirage stuff (even though there's stuff with individual creators to deal with, but c'mon, you know there's a way). Just start by reproducing the entire back catalog of TMNT in TPB format, maybe bonus material too, and doing them in color wouldn't hurt either. I know traditionally TMNT is BnW, but I'm telling ya, any TMNT product would definitely sell better in color, cost effectiveness be damned, and it's partly why the books now aren't doing better.

Then, since it's apprently a waste of time and money to produce monthly issues for an audience that doesn't exist (or even bi-monthly issues... or quarterly... or annually...), all new TMNT stories could be released in TPB format as well, like what the guy that did Hepcats back in the day planned on doing for some of the same economic reasons (whatever happened with that guy, anyway?). A TPB of all-new TMNT material every few months would be better than nothing, wouldn't it? They could market and sell it through the site. And then if the market ever restabilizes, or the audience comes back, they could have a go at doing single issues again.

I'unno, it's an idea.

[CyberCubed]

Yeah, single issue comic books may be done away with altogether aside from the big and popular Marvel and DC series.

I'd love one collected book to come out every 6 months, with 5 all-new 25-30 page stories in them by different writers/artists.

[Leo656]

Why not, right?

I'm so saddened by it, but the comic industry seems to be dying off. In a few years it'll all be digital anyways, and comic companies like DC and Marvel probably make just as much if not more on TPBs. It's like that's the next wave before going all-digital, the way there's been this explosion in TPBs the last 10 years. I remember characters like Wonder Woman or Green Lantern having no TPBs, now there's dozens for every single character ever, even obscure 40s stuff.

[CyberCubed]

It's not all that surprising that a new generation of fans aren't that interested in comic books.

Everyone has other distractions nowadays, the internet, videogames, TV shows, DVDs and Blu-ray, music...and comics are being forgotten.

The comic book industry may not even exist 10-20 years from now.

[junkboy]

Issues will die ofc but TPBs will be with us for a long time imo.
Till the time nothing is printed on paper anymore.
We still have newspapers. The first thing to go digital-only must be newspapers.

I am happy tho, cause that i will be long dead when that full digital age comes.

But comic companies see digital comics as the salvation of industry. Really bad point. As CyberCubed says; It is not the medium that is important. It is the change in the entertainment values of generations. With each coming generation , ppl go on looking for easier entertainment methods. They go lazy.
Watching something or playing a game is much more fitting to the future ( which sucks )
Tho there is art and much less text in it, practically a comic book ( even when it is in issue form ) is a book. The rate of reading "something" goes down with each new generation. This is a known fact.

[CyberCubed]

Before Tales goes under I'd like to see it hit a milestone for number of comics in a particular series.

It's already almost surpassed Vol. 1, which was 62 issues, and we have confirmed issues up to #60.

However this is misleading, do the Leo, Raph, Mike and (possible) Don 4-issue mini-series count as Tales issues? The Leo one is called "Tales of Leo" after all, so if you count these specials you can add 16 issues to Tales final run.

If Tales ends it may not have brought in money, but it was one of the most successful runs in terms of issues since the Archie series, (which has the record at 72 issues....but its really over 100 with all the specials and mini-series combined).

[Cipher]

I've never really understood the American comics industry. Short, monthly titles with extremely limted print numbers, haphazard TPB collections, a general lack of availability. Multiply these issues tenfold for a small or independent publisher and you have absolutely the most inconvenient way to publish a series ever.

This isn't a "manga vs comics" discussion, but Japan really has it right. Some titles are run in monthly anthologies, but every series pretty much survives through quaterly collections, which are run in huge numbers and made contantly available. I would only be too glad to have Turtles (or any comic) shift to semi-frequent TPBs which could be widely and constantly available (I'm talking, major bookstore fare). If they wanted, material could be published online in between book collections.

I really see comics going there eventually. The only thing I don't want to see is strictly online comics. I'll put up with one online reading for new material, but I really hate scrolling and squinting through the art and words.

[Aztec General]

I agree with Ciper. I'd much rather have trade paperbacks, or graphic novels, released periodically than monthly comics. I think it will really help sales. I know it'd make me more likely to buy.

I'd hate to see Tales end of course, but I'd love for a Tristan Jones TMNT series to rise in its wake!

[CyberCubed]

I buy my new comics in batches, so I agree. I don't buy 1 new comic each month, I usually wait until 5 new issues come out and then I order all 5 together.

Honestly if they released a TPB with 5 new Tales in it every 6 months or so, that'd be pretty damn good and perfectly acceptable.

[TristanHuwJones]

I know Dan has tossed the idea around once or twice in conversation, and I also know that Peter was considering putting Vol.4 out in a similar fashion at one point, so who knows. If you guys like the idea, I suggest you let both Dan and Peter know.

I'm not sure if anyone read IDW's Silent Hill books, but I reckon that's a great book format... A TPB or Prestige format book every few months. I still love the tension created by a monthly and the anticipation of the next installment the following month though, and I'd love to see an ongoing, but ultimately it's up to Peter and Dan.

[trustno1]

has it been confirmed yet what is happening with tales or volume 4? i was hoping some news would have come forward in the wake of the movie being announced.

[Roseangelo]

has it been confirmed yet what is happening with tales or volume 4? i was hoping some news would have come forward in the wake of the movie being announced.

Sales are still very low with Tales, but I wouldn't expect any decision to be made/announced until later in the year. Volume 4 is purely dependent on Peter Laird actually finishing the books.

[trustno1]

Sales are still very low with Tales, but I wouldn't expect any decision to be made/announced until later in the year. Volume 4 is purely dependent on Peter Laird actually finishing the books.

thanks. i seem to recall someone mentioning april/may. guess with the movie ahppening its all in the air. i have my fingers crossed that tales will bow out gracefully and a new series will come in.

[GordonUniverse]

Come on, Tales! Make it to 73, you can do it!

[TristanHuwJones]

Head on over to Gogreenmachine.org for a preview of Tales #59! Dialogue and new supporting cast members!

[CyberCubed]

Come on, Tales! Make it to 73, you can do it!

I think the fact that Tales has more issues than Vol. 1 says a lot in itself. In fact considering the original Tales ended in only 7 issues, the fact that we got 65+ issues says a lot.

Don't forget Image only ran for 23 issues, Vol. 2 only 13 issues, Dreamwave only 7 issues, and so forth. Vol. 4 will also likely end prior to 40 issues.

Tales definitely broke a lot of milestones, only the Archie series is ahead of it by another 50 issues, (if you include all the specials).

[trustno1]

i just wish more of them tied togheter. hopefully if it all does continue then the story set up might allow for more flow.

[Andrew NDB]

I think the format of Tales (which essentially can be summed up by "filling gaps") -- while fine in principle -- really only works long-term if there's a strong ongoing flagship book that continues to push the regular story forward.

Barring that, I think the best approach to Tales going forward would be... say, Laird picks the stories/scripts for a given year of Tales that interest him. Then he gathers all the writers of the stories together in some kind of writer's summit... and the writers talk to each other, read all of each other's stories, and then kind of give and take to each other and revise their scripts to give said year of Tales comics an organic feeling to one another, even if they're different stories. For example, maybe a common element or storyline that is developed from issue to issue and writer to writer within the year (even if the stories are seperated by setting and time) and by the end of the year we get a better sense of... while maybe not one unified story, at least having explored a relatively cohesive vision.

If that makes any sense.

[TristanHuwJones]

That's exactly the sort of thing I suggested :)

[GordonUniverse]

Tales definitely broke a lot of milestones, only the Archie series is ahead of it by another 50 issues, (if you include all the specials).

I wouldn't count all the spin-offs the publisher produced as part of the same title. If you did that, you should add all the spin-offs and limited series that Mirage did for their book count, or at least add the spin-offs and stuff for each volume.

Why would "Donatello and Leatherhead" count towards the "Adventures" run if "Tales of the TMNT Vol. 1" doesn't count towards Mirage Volume 1's run?

EDIT: And if you do that, you gotta count "Tales Vol. 2", all the 4-issue specials and "Volume 4" together.

And don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy it lasted as long as it did.

[Ninjinister]

And don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy it lasted as long as it did.

You're acting as if it's already dead and buried.

[GordonUniverse]

I feel like I'm digging a hole for myself here.

There's so much negativity on this forum and across the fandom that I find it ironic that I'm singled out as being negative when I was actually making an effort to be positive.

I guess I should have said "so far".

This is a thread about the possible end of Tales. I'm just saying that IF it is the end, then I'm still very happy with the run that it had. I would be very happy if either Tales would continue or a new series were to start up, of course.

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles will never die!

[Lil G]

I feel like I'm digging a hole for myself here.

There's so much negativity on this forum and across the fandom that I find it ironic that I'm singled out as being negative when I was actually making an effort to be positive.

I guess I should have said "so far".

This is a thread about the possible end of Tales. I'm just saying that IF it is the end, then I'm still very happy with the run that it had. I would be very happy if either Tales would continue or a new series were to start up, of course.

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles will never die!

Good for you! K now... i think even if it does stop, it had a pretty good run. I liked the "The River" story arc but i don't really see what's all that great about bloodsucker....

[VaughnMichael]

I liked the "The River" story arc but i don't really see what's all that great about bloodsucker....
Um he's creepy and cool looking and one of the very few other mutants in the series besides the TMNT.

[Lil G]

Um he's creepy and cool looking and one of the very few other mutants in the series besides the TMNT.

oh yeah i understand that but i dont know.... he just seemed kind of... silent. i cant explain it. but i loved his design, and the way he acted but, eh i dont know.

[TristanHuwJones]

but i loved his design, and the way he acted

There's your answer right there, mate!