Some insight from inside the TMNT World

[Canadian Turtle]

So as many of you know I am currently deep in production on the TMNT documentary project, I can say we are achieving much more than I thought we would be able to! The official TMNT community has been a major help so far! I can't thank them enough!

I have seen a lot of threads on here about the "doom and gloom" of the franchise, talking about the ending of TMNT, if and when we get a movie, and so on.

We, as you can imaging I spoke about such things with many of the people I was privileged enough to get to know.

I can't say everything but I will say a few things.

First off these people all deserve a lot more credit than we give them, they are too often cut down on here with no reason. They are working very hard to continue to bring you a quality product that we all love and enjoy.

The Current Show: I know that Peter is very proud of what they have accomplished on the new show! As I believe many of us would agree. When the new show comes to an end we shouldn't freak out, we can't expect it to last forever. It is no secret that there is a "feature" project with the new cartoon being premiered at Sandi Con by 4kids. This was discussed at their panel which I am sure you can find on the net.

The New Movie: This I can't say to much about other than they are talking about it, it would likely be a "hybrid" style shoot, and people are confident it may happen some day soon. In the world of movie making deals rest on dollars and contracts, as much as the Mirage crew wants to make something it can be put on hold by the powers that be. Though Peter seemed optamistic about it!

TMNT Longevity: Personally I think it is silly that people are worried about TMNT "going away" How can it go away any more than super man or batman can go away? Even if it sleeps for a while it will never disappear forever. From the perspective of some at Mirage taking a break can be a huge help to get those creative juices flowing again. When being so close to one specific property some times you need a little time to step back and take a breather, but in that case they will be back.

Lets cut them some slack, I think we are pretty lucky and have a vibrant and very alive franchise compared to pretty much all others of the same generation.

Thanks! Check for more updates on the doc at: www.turtledoc.com

[Kendamu]

Speaking of taking a breather, nice to get some optimistic fresh air in here!

[CyberCubed]

If the TMNT cartoon ends, then TMNT is pretty much dead outside the comics.

The cartoons are always what attracts kids to the franchise, and without a cartoon and a toyline to advertise it, TMNT might as well go back to being an obscure comic book franchise.

Its actually pretty disappointing that no effort to renew the show for another season is being made by any of the three parties. Does Playmates actually expect their toys to continue to sell without a cartoon? Does 4kids not want to bank off merchandize success of the possible 5th movie with new eps of the cartoon?

It really is troubling. Sure, we'll have the comics, but without a cartoon on the air the TMNT franchise is for the most part dead. Its a damn shame.

[Leonardo19]

So as many of you know I am currently deep in production on the TMNT documentary project, I can say we are achieving much more than I thought we would be able to! The official TMNT community has been a major help so far! I can't thank them enough!

I have seen a lot of threads on here about the "doom and gloom" of the franchise, talking about the ending of TMNT, if and when we get a movie, and so on.

We, as you can imaging I spoke about such things with many of the people I was privileged enough to get to know.

I can't say everything but I will say a few things.

First off these people all deserve a lot more credit than we give them, they are too often cut down on here with no reason. They are working very hard to continue to bring you a quality product that we all love and enjoy.

The Current Show: I know that Peter is very proud of what they have accomplished on the new show! As I believe many of us would agree. When the new show comes to an end we shouldn't freak out, we can't expect it to last forever. It is no secret that there is a "feature" project with the new cartoon being premiered at Sandi Con by 4kids. This was discussed at their panel which I am sure you can find on the net.

The New Movie: This I can't say to much about other than they are talking about it, it would likely be a "hybrid" style shoot, and people are confident it may happen some day soon. In the world of movie making deals rest on dollars and contracts, as much as the Mirage crew wants to make something it can be put on hold by the powers that be. Though Peter seemed optamistic about it!

TMNT Longevity: Personally I think it is silly that people are worried about TMNT "going away" How can it go away any more than super man or batman can go away? Even if it sleeps for a while it will never disappear forever. From the perspective of some at Mirage taking a break can be a huge help to get those creative juices flowing again. When being so close to one specific property some times you need a little time to step back and take a breather, but in that case they will be back.

Lets cut them some slack, I think we are pretty lucky and have a vibrant and very alive franchise compared to pretty much all others of the same generation.

Thanks! Check for more updates on the doc at: www.turtledoc.com


I agree with all this. You are a TRUE TMNT fan! People forget to accept things for what they are.

[Canadian Turtle]

I agree with all this. You are a TRUE TMNT fan! People forget to accept things for what they are.

Thanks bro! That means a lot to me!

You said it right there, my whole big point in way fewer words hahaha! Thanks!

[Buslady]

My #1 wish is that TMNT is treated like a adult level property, less retro more modern comic book look on merch.

My #2 wish is that they get the next issue of V4 out....I've all but forgotten the story.

There's no doubt they're working on a lot of projects, i just hope it's going in the right direction.

[turkishproverb]

Oh, I think many of them are trying, and I'm glad to hear this optimism for a change.

[CyberCubed]

I still don't get this thread. The only thing to be "optimistic" about is the comics, since there is some good stuff with trades, Tales, Forever war, and so forth coming. And we have the second wave of Neca figures finally coming out.

What else is there to be happy about? The cartoon ending pretty much means the death of TMNT in the mainstream media for who knows how many years. With no cartoon the Playmates toyline might as well end too and go on hiatus.

I don't get it, we're happy that TMNT is going back to being an obscure comic book series? Sure, I love the comics, but without a cartoon on the air, you might as well say TMNT is dead for the forseeable future.

[TristanHuwJones]

Then why not be optimistic about the comics? Someone said it over in another thread, with all the attention turning to the comics in the face of the show ending, maybe the franchise will be treated the way everyone seems to want it to be treated -- as a more adult brand more in touch with its true roots. We know that Imagi aren't going to be involved, so it's doubtful it will have too much to do with the 07 movie, and with the show ending, it's even more doubtful it'll resemble that. What does that leave, logically? New ground, or the comics.

[Roseangelo]

Then why not be optimistic about the comics? Someone said it over in another thread, with all the attention turning to the comics in the face of the show ending, maybe the franchise will be treated the way everyone seems to want it to be treated -- as a more adult brand more in touch with its true roots. We know that Imagi aren't going to be involved, so it's doubtful it will have too much to do with the 07 movie, and with the show ending, it's even more doubtful it'll resemble that. What does that leave, logically? New ground, or the comics.

There's nothing to be optimistic about in the comics. The book isn't in the top 300 overall and it's not even in the top 50 for independent books. Mirage isn't taking the comics any more serious than they have in the last 5 or so years; it just happens to be the only thing that doesn't have its graveyard dug just yet, but even that's just a matter of time. We still don't know whether or not the book will go into 2010 and the lack of sales doesn't speak for optimism in that regard. That's just how it is.

[TristanHuwJones]

There's nothing to be optimistic about in the comics.

it just happens to be the only thing that doesn't have its graveyard dug just yet,

There's something right there.

We still don't know whether or not the book will go into 2010 and the lack of sales doesn't speak for optimism in that regard. That's just how it is.

The book isn't in the top 300 overall and it's not even in the top 50 for independent books.

The book is never decided on until about halfway through the year. All my pitches were made in June last year, after the decision was made to move ahead with the 09 season. A decision on 2010 won't be made until the same time. You know that nothing gets planned solidly beyond a year, and that's not just at Mirage, that's at Marvel, DC, and pretty much everywhere else.

Also, Tales has been selling at pretty much the same numbers since #10. It fluctuates between 2500 to 3000 units occasionally spiking at 3500. It actually sold its lowest at #9, managing only 1600 units. The other months that it doesn't appear on the sales lists cap the number 300 spot at roughly 3000 units, so chances are (and this is what Dan has told me as well) the book is selling anywhere between 2000-3000, usually averaging at 2500. The other thing is that more and more mid-range titles appear from the bigger companies, which push titles that have been selling the SAME number of units further down the scale. It doesn't mean they aren't selling, they just aren't making the top 300.

The sales HAVE dropped. I won't deny that and I never have, but it's only by a couple of hundred (Amazing Spiderman has seen sales drop by much more in years it's had movies!), and that fluctuates. There are still no sales data for this year either.

There is nothing wrong with people being optimistic. Just because they're optimistic, doesn't automatically make them naive or ignorant to what's going on. I'm pretty damn sure that everyone on this board, outside of a few newcomers, is aware of the state of things at the moment and I'm sure everyone is going to be disappointed (to varying extents) if things go the way of the dinosaur, but it all just comes down to outlook. Each to their own.

[TwinbeeMkII]

I'm glad some still have optimisum and hope these days. Granted things are lower then we like but I've seen franchises in worse shape survive and thrive because of it. Besides, if we the fans don't keep hope alive that there's a future, what's the point of the creatives to keep it up? We're the ones who have to show them there's still life left in the franchise. To do that we have to show them we have faith in them. Nice topic Canadian, and great input Tristan. Let's show Mirage we'll support this franchise till we're old and grey.

[Lord Nightwalker]

I am optimistic about the TMNT comics and property as a whole, As a long time fan I have to be. This anniversary could be big for things to turn around and snowball into something great. Unfortunately, it could snowball in the other direction as well. That's the reality of it. But hey, I'm a fan, and a dreamer. So I say find a way or make one.
If I had the ability and income, I'd do what ever I could to help the TMNT comics exist. All I can do is buy what I can, as I can. Which works out pretty well in the regard that I have nearly every issue. But I do not have the kind of money it takes to aid in the running of a company or I'd donate what I could. If the cease publication of the comics I will be quite upset.
I'll probably start sketching my own. Again.
As far as comic book properties go, and I do like quite a lot, TMNT and Batman are my absolute favorites.
If the book ends I will miss them.
At least until DC buys the rights.
Or something.

[Buslady]

Its also hard to be optimistic about the comics when the Pete says V4 will resume when all the 07 movie stuff was all over & done with. Here it is 09, ok so where's the book??

[trustno1]

how is it hard? we still get tales of the tmnt every month. to be honest, it would not bother me at all if peter stopped volume 4, so long as tales kept going. he can finish volume 4 any time even in tales if he wanted to.

maybe you should ask him your exact question on his blog.

[Roseangelo]

so chances are the book is selling anywhere between 2000-3000, usually averaging at 2500.

I have it on good authority that sales are much, MUCH lower than that.

[Andrew NDB]

It is no secret that there is a "feature" project with the new cartoon being premiered at Sandi Con by 4kids. This was discussed at their panel which I am sure you can find on the net.

The TMNT-meets-TMNT thing for children? Should be fun for people into that sort of thing, or folks nostalgic for the old Fred Wolf cartoon. I couldn't care less.

The New Movie: This I can't say to much about other than they are talking about it

To be fair, though, the hybrid factor intrigues me but I have no confidence it wouldn't be only be slightly less of a toddler/Playmates' toys pandering affair than the last movie was.

Not excited, and with all the dozens upon dozens of promising movie deals that came and fell apart to make TMNT Part 4 (to finally arrive at a pretty embarassing final movie) the odds just aren't in TMNT Part 5's favor... both the chance of it even getting made and the chance that it won't be forehead slappingly awful.

TMNT Longevity: Personally I think it is silly that people are worried about TMNT "going away" How can it go away any more than super man or batman can go away?

Personally I think it is silly to compare TMNT to either Superman or Batman... for pretty obvious reasons.

It's not your fault by any means, of course, but nowhere in your post do you give any insight or hope about the TMNT comics... which is the last vestige of the franchise that even tries to appeal to people over the age of 10 (or old who can't let go of their childhoods... not that there's anything wrong with that).

I do agree that TMNT's longevity isn't in jeopardy. I'm far more concerned with TMNT's credibility in the long haul... so far all we're seeing is an endless, repeating cycle of catering to the lowest common denominator, then wondering why the little kids keep outgrowing it. Over and over again, all the while ignoring that the TMNT was never intended to be for little kids to begin with.

Sooner or later TMNT is going to run out of third, or fourth, or fifth chances. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

[TristanHuwJones]

I have it on good authority that sales are much, MUCH lower than that.

Well, good for you, I'm telling you what I was told by Dan at the end of last year. If I were to guess, then sales'd be around the 2000 mark at the end of last year, but I don't know, and there have still been a number of months in the past where sales have dipped further than that. Like I said, #9 MADE the top 300 at 1600 units, so the sales numbers fluctuate.

That's beside the point anyway. The point I was making is the outlook. Everyone is well aware of the reality of the brand, outside of a few newcomers. What does it matter to you if people are optimistic? As I said, everyone knows what's going on.

[Kendamu]

So an independent comic is selling less copies than Batman. We're supposed to be surprised?

[CyberCubed]

No cartoon = no way to get a new generation of kids interested in Turtles.

The idea is the cartoons introduce people to the franchise and then they might get into the comics. After all, isn't that how most of us discovered TMNT in the first place via the original cartoon?

How can we be optimistic without a cartoon?

[Archon_Turtle]

I said a bunch of stuff! Blah blah blah!


I completely agree with you Isaac. I also cross-blogged this post on theturtlevan.

[Kendamu]

No cartoon = no way to get a new generation of kids interested in Turtles.

The idea is the cartoons introduce people to the franchise and then they might get into the comics. After all, isn't that how most of us discovered TMNT in the first place via the original cartoon?

How can we be optimistic without a cartoon?
Just because one particular cartoon series is coming to an end doesn't mean that they'll never be animated again in the not-too-distant future. I mean, it's not like the world immediately forgets about any comic character that suddenly doesn't have his own cartoon series anymore. I think that the Turtles can survive without a cartoon lined up immediately after this one.

[CyberCubed]

Just because one particular cartoon series is coming to an end doesn't mean that they'll never be animated again in the not-too-distant future. I mean, it's not like the world immediately forgets about any comic character that suddenly doesn't have his own cartoon series anymore. I think that the Turtles can survive without a cartoon lined up immediately after this one.

That is true, but Batman has consistently had a cartoon on the air for years.

After Batman: The Animated series ended, we got Batman Beyond, then Batman played a major role on Justice League.

In addition to that there was The Batman, and now Brave and the Bold. There has been an animated form of Batman on TV in one form or another since pretty much 1992.

With TMNT if the 2k3 series ends, what is there to look forward to? Sure, maybe 5-6 years from now we'll get another cartoon, but it'll probably not be all that good, and the 2k3 universe will be abandoned forever.

[TristanHuwJones]

Kids will still watch reruns. And if kids were getting into the comics, the sales numbers would be a lot higher. It's rare that I see a kid below the age of 15 in a comic shop. Even when I was in the the U.S. (and I hit those comic shops hard).

[Canadian Turtle]

Kids will still watch reruns. And if kids were getting into the comics, the sales numbers would be a lot higher. It's rare that I see a kid below the age of 15 in a comic shop. Even when I was in the the U.S. (and I hit those comic shops hard).

I agree, I think the comic image and industry needs to take a swing away from the exclusive older male culture and get youth back into it again... or it will ultimately die all together.

[TristanHuwJones]

With TMNT if the 2k3 series ends, what is there to look forward to? Sure, maybe 5-6 years from now we'll get another cartoon, but it'll probably not be all that good, and the 2k3 universe will be abandoned forever.

Therein lies the point I've been trying to make. Why not look forward to the prospect that it could be better? It could be "not all that good" but it could be twice that. ****, it could even be the Spawn style animated series everyone wants!

It's the "glass half empty" point of view people are taking that is bringing things down. It's fine to have that point of view, but it doesn't get anyone anywhere really.

[CyberCubed]

Well the TMNT 2k3 series was the closest version of a cartoon the comics that we got, even if they took creative liberties, and Peter Laird approved of almost every script before the 4kids writers actually went ahead of it.

I also imagine the length had something to do with it. 155 episodes for a cartoon is an amazing run. If we get another cartoon, it'll last maybe 52 eps at the most and end, or maybe even just 26 episodes.

The cartoon is what introduces kids to the franchise and then said kids may look up the comics. If there is no cartoon, a random 14 year old kid is unlikely to go to a comic store and pick up a black and white comic when there are Batman and Superman comics sitting right there next to them.

[TristanHuwJones]

But that kid might not be into Batman or Superman. That kid might've been into TMNT a couple of years ago, and therefore might pick up the TMNT comic. Kids read Manga, and that isn't in colour and half of it is read backwards. Just because it's Batman or Superman and it's in colour doesn't mean people are going to pick it over a black and white comic.

Again, "glass half empty".

[Kendamu]

Well the TMNT 2k3 series was the closest version of a cartoon the comics that we got, even if they took creative liberties, and Peter Laird approved of almost every script before the 4kids writers actually went ahead of it.

I also imagine the length had something to do with it. 155 episodes for a cartoon is an amazing run. If we get another cartoon, it'll last maybe 52 eps at the most and end, or maybe even just 26 episodes.

The cartoon is what introduces kids to the franchise and then said kids may look up the comics. If there is no cartoon, a random 14 year old kid is unlikely to go to a comic store and pick up a black and white comic when there are Batman and Superman comics sitting right there next to them.
Well, hopefully this whole Barnes & Noble thing picks up because when that same random kid goes there to buy Batman, he'll see TMNT and go, "What's this?" Hopefully he'll like it.

[Andrew NDB]

In many ways, I think it's positive that "Everything" TMNT is dying in the mass media (aside from the comic). Better to let everything die, I say, and then let the franchise sit on ice for 5-10 years so that TPTB can come back to the table with something more befitting the source material in the mass media than the toddler nonsense we're forcefed at large. Maybe this means a TMNT movie unlike any other. Maybe this is a made-for-TV/Direct-to-DVD type affair. Maybe a semi-ongoing, mature animated feature on something like HBO. I don't know. Sometimes... often times... it's just that things need to hit rock bottom in order to come back better, or properly.

I know it may never happen. I tell you, though, I'd rather gamble on the odds of that happening than to just be content with the kind of twisted, vicious circle of one kiddie incarnation to the next to the next to the next we're looking at now.

In all likelihood, I don't doubt that TPTB will still just jump at the next little kid cartoon deal that comes their way with asking only a modest amount of concessions. I just think it's unfortunate. And makes the problems within the TMNT's portrayal in the mass media self-perpetuating.

[Archon_Turtle]

In many ways, it's positive that "Everything" TMNT is dying in the mass media (aside from the comic). Better to let everything die, I say, and then let the franchise sit on ice for 5-10 years so that TPTB can come back to the table with something more befitting the source material in the mass media than the toddler nonsense we're forcefed at large.

It may never happen, but better that than status quo.

In some ways I agree with Andrew. Better to let something die gracefully then to make it trudge on for years too long *cough* Simpsons *cough*

[CyberCubed]

I'd love to see a TMNT movie in the same or similar tone as something like Batman Begins, but who knows if that'll ever happen.

Aside from that though, saying that there should never be another kids cartoon is just bad business. That would never happen.

[Drtooth]

No cartoon = no way to get a new generation of kids interested in Turtles.

Come on... we all know that the cartoon ghas basically run its course, and the reason why FF and BTTS don't measure up is due to the fact the writers thought that there would be one more season of each. And then when nothing happened, we got all these filler episodes that don't go anywhere, while big, exciting plots go completely unexplored.

Face it. It's been on the air since 2003... 6 years for 7 (or 8... however you count it) seasons. And well over 100 episodes. That in and of itself is a triumph, in the days of lack of interest in kid's animation and production caps. Heck, I'm pretty surprised they would have even let it go on for 5 seasons.

I'm disappointed we won't get the big, dynamic closure we were all expecting. We had more closure with the "Lost" season, dispite the fact it took an odd turn to Naruto-land.

And think about it this way. How many cartoon toy lines are their VS movie toy lines? Sure, we're getting The Brave and the Bold right now, and we had Spectacular Spider-Man and Transformers Animated... but those shows all attribute their success (if you can call it that) due to movies.

Not to mention the fact that if the show was to continue, we'd get more clumsily added toy placements (think of what the show could be like if they integrated the music Turtle line into it. NOT pretty) And Mikey would continue his character slide into big baby, and Raph would still be Oscar the Grouch, mumbling about how stupid Mikey is.

[Roseangelo]

In all likelihood, I don't doubt that TPTB will still just jump at the next little kid cartoon deal that comes their way with asking only a modest amount of concessions. I just think it's unfortunate. And makes the problems within the TMNT's portrayal in the mass media self-perpetuating.

I expect this is exactly what will happen. Nothing changes for the TMNT so long as TPTB don't change.

[Kendamu]

I don't see what's wrong wtih having a kid's show. I mean, it's not like The Brave and the Bold is eating into public perception of The Dark Knight.

[CyberCubed]

Come on... we all know that the cartoon ghas basically run its course, and the reason why FF and BTTS don't measure up is due to the fact the writers thought that there would be one more season of each. And then when nothing happened, we got all these filler episodes that don't go anywhere, while big, exciting plots go completely unexplored.

By my count FF had 6 pure fillers out of a total of 26 episodes. Fillers are skippable episodes, but what do you count as filler?

Were Jammerhead's appearances filler? I wouldn't say so, since one ep was also about them catching Darius and the other was the first episode.

Was "The Journal" and/or "Graduation Day" filler? Hm, it really depends on if you consider those eps character building. FF doesn't have that many pointless eps as a whole.

And of BTTS, there were 3 pure fillers out of 13 episodes. The Serling/Turtle Tots ep, Superquest, and possibly that Justice Force episode. Its not that many useless eps as people claim.


I'm disappointed we won't get the big, dynamic closure we were all expecting. We had more closure with the "Lost" season, dispite the fact it took an odd turn to Naruto-land.

Yeah this is true and I agree, it just that having 3 Shredder's in a showdown would be an epic conclusion for the show and the entire Shredder story in general. Maybe we can still get a DTV out of it if we're lucky.

How many cartoon toy lines are their VS movie toy lines? Sure, we're getting The Brave and the Bold right now, and we had Spectacular Spider-Man and Transformers Animated... but those shows all attribute their success (if you can call it that) due to movies.

Well why can't the possible 5th movie revive interest in the cartoon? Seems like a missed opportunity if 4kids drops the series right before a possible 5th movie is announced.

Not to mention the fact that if the show was to continue, we'd get more clumsily added toy placements (think of what the show could be like if they integrated the music Turtle line into it. NOT pretty) And Mikey would continue his character slide into big baby, and Raph would still be Oscar the Grouch, mumbling about how stupid Mikey is.

Raph's been making fun of Mikey since the first season. While its true Mike has had his character played for laughs too much, it doesn't bother me that much.

And I doubt we'd see stupid stuff like Music Turtles actually in the cartoon. There's no way to work something like that in there.

[TristanHuwJones]

Just a quick update regarding Tales Sales:

Tales #54 made number 278 on the top 300 sales for January.

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2009/2009-01.html

[gobo]

"Tales Sales"... :D Awesome.

[Andrew NDB]

Just a quick update regarding Tales Sales:

Tales #54 made number 278 on the top 300 sales for January.

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2009/2009-01.html

Those aren't the final numbers, though, are they?

If #55 does less than that, there's simply no justice in the world.

[Andrew NDB]

I don't see what's wrong wtih having a kid's show. I mean, it's not like The Brave and the Bold is eating into public perception of The Dark Knight.

Yes... but TMNT first needs to have it's own Dark Knight, or even its own Batman Begins. It doesn't. It's never had that.

[GodzFire]

Canadian Turtle, here's one big thing I'd like you to ask your connections; why haven't they considered re-running the classic cartoon series on TV? Once it ended, no channel has ever re-ran it.

It's a rich history of turtles, and now would be the perfect time to start. Hell, they could even re-issue more classic action figures in a "throwback" fashion, including some of the characters that were never made. (I'll be creating a new thread about this)

[Lord Nightwalker]

No cartoon = no way to get a new generation of kids interested in Turtles.

The idea is the cartoons introduce people to the franchise and then they might get into the comics. After all, isn't that how most of us discovered TMNT in the first place via the original cartoon?

How can we be optimistic without a cartoon?

Nope.
I cut my teeth on the Mirage Black and white comics.
Found them at the comic shop and that cinched it for me.
Then I found the Archie TMNTA at or local grocery store and started to nab every one of those I could find to.
Then I watched the 80's toon.
And wished it wasn't so silly. But the pilot episodes kickd ass. I still have those on vhs. *smiles* While I thought it could have been a better cartoon, It did have it's moments and it did help feed my TMNT craze.
Ultimately though, The comics were my "bread and butter".

I'd be cool with it completely if it reverted back to it's comic book roots, and then a new toon or movie down the line.
Don't underestimated the potential of a great book or comic because it's a different visual medium from a televised show.

[Drtooth]

Raph's been making fun of Mikey since the first season. While its true Mike has had his character played for laughs too much, it doesn't bother me that much.


In the older episodes, I really think they handled both much, much better. Now it seems that that's the only thing those two characters are about. Mikey was originally portrayed as the fun loving, child like brother... now he devolved into the childish goofball. Same thing with Raph. he was the brooding, slightly angry member of the crew... and then in FF he basically became grouchy.

And I doubt we'd see stupid stuff like Music Turtles actually in the cartoon. There's no way to work something like that in there.

They'd find one. No matter how ridiculous they would manage to do it, they would. I have horrible thoughts about TMNT becoming like Jem or the DTV movie Rocking with Judy Jetson. But that's all hypothetical.

As for FF's "filler," that's basically the term used to discribe an episode that doesn't have a bigger purpose. And There were quite a lot of them, only establishing how things have changed, as if not loudly obvious neough to being with.

I think if we're ever going to get another TMNT cartoon, we have to wait and reboot the franchise again. They really need to start anew.

[Canadian Turtle]

Canadian Turtle, here's one big thing I'd like you to ask your connections; why haven't they considered re-running the classic cartoon series on TV? Once it ended, no channel has ever re-ran it.

It's a rich history of turtles, and now would be the perfect time to start. Hell, they could even re-issue more classic action figures in a "throwback" fashion, including some of the characters that were never made. (I'll be creating a new thread about this)

I think this is a common misconception among TMNT fans. Groups like Mirage or any rights holders don't have direct pull with the television networks to "make them" play anything, besides they don't own the rights to the original cartoon. Even if Lions Gate was approached to air those shows it is purely a networks decision to come forward and ask to air those and as far as I know the only channel here that runs shows like that is TeletoonRetro and they have a stupidly small selection of shows as it is.

[sdp]

I just moved to Mexico City and there is a channel that airs OT around 12:30 on saturdays and sundays.

[Archon_Turtle]

I think this is a common misconception among TMNT fans. Groups like Mirage or any rights holders don't have direct pull with the television networks to "make them" play anything, besides they don't own the rights to the original cartoon. Even if Lions Gate was approached to air those shows it is purely a networks decision to come forward and ask to air those and as far as I know the only channel here that runs shows like that is TeletoonRetro and they have a stupidly small selection of shows as it is.

A network like Boomerang might run it once it becomes "Classic" status. Kinda like how the shows I grew up with now run on nick-at-nite...*cries*

[CyberCubed]

I think if we're ever going to get another TMNT cartoon, we have to wait and reboot the franchise again. They really need to start anew.

Of course I expect that to happen eventually, it just would have been nice to see the 2k3 universe get a more epic sendoff.

[joe-eyeball]

I agree with several people on this forum who still lean heavily in the not so optimistic group. This is because I refuse to be optimistic over things which are clearly descending into a black hole. I mean with the show it progressively got worse (2k3= great, then fast forward=so so, then btts= crap). Then the toys (Playmates= complete crap, Neca= who knows?). Then the movie (Who really freakin knows?). Then the comic with a dismal future.

So being optimistic just because the Turtles are barely hanging on in some capacity is kind of rediculous. Its like watching a slow painful death, where in the end the Turtles may become a joke.

People need to understand that we who are negative about the current state of the Turtles are not acting this way because we no longer care (well, most of us anyway) its because we would just rather see them die off for a while than fall in line like a bunch of sheep accepting whatever crap they give us. It just makes no sense to me to say: "I'm just glad we got the Turtles in some form, I don't care, I'll just take what I can get." To be totally honest the only positive thing I think of for the Turtles are the memories of past.

[gobo]

the Turtles may become a joke.
I'm pretty sure most (not all) people already thought that for years.

[Andrew NDB]

I think some people here are confusing negativity and "doom and gloom" with plain and simple, pragmatic realism. We all want the best for the franchise... we all believe it has untapped potential (though we may disagree -- strongly -- on what that potential lies in and the means in which to tap into it).


I'm pretty sure most (not all) people already thought that for years.


Yep.

[CyberCubed]

I guess the only hope now is if the 5th movie comes out and winds up being darker than the previous ones.

[turkishproverb]

Yes... but TMNT first needs to have it's own Dark Knight, or even its own Batman Begins. It doesn't. It's never had that.

It had a film of that dark style (TMNT 1) but it was in the smack dab MIDDLE of the old series which hurt the impact it could have had.

[Andrew NDB]

It had a film of that dark style (TMNT 1)

C'mon. We all love TMNT 1 and you'll get no argument from me that it's the closest we've ever gotten to seeing a proper TMNT production outside of the comic books... but let's not put on beer goggles and pretend it was something it's not.

[turkishproverb]

Please. It was about as dark as the v.1 comics EVER were. Heck, the return of shredder had jokes, even if it would adapt to far less time count. The movie was what I state it was.

If we're talking about beer goggles, I remind you there is a mean drunk as well as a happy one.

[FearlessLeader]

While I am respectful of everyone here and enjoy the fact that the majority of this board lives in a Country built on the foundation of freedom of speech. I feel like a lot of you are missing the point of fandom all together.

It's to have fun.

I don't know any of you personally nor will I hazard to pretend to, but a lot of you come across as very bitter, angry people. I come to this board because it is the BEST for getting information about the fandom right away, but I don't come here to socialize because this board is not fun.

If I were a new fan testing out Turtles fandom and I came here I would run for the hills. Reading the posts here is stressful. Everyone is so unhappy and pessimistic.

I enjoy Turtles fandom. I don't expect anything out of it. I don't have my list of demands that I expect to be met. It's just nice to relax, reading or watching characters that I relate to and that have been with me almost my entire life.

I will be the first to admit if I don't like a part of the fandom (for me Next Mutation and Fast Forward mostly) I don't focus on it. I focus on the parts I do like (pretty much everything else) and I will continue to focus on it and love it while it is there. I don't believe it is my job personally to make Turtles last forever. I am just grateful for what I get. I was and will be sad again when it fades away for another resting period. So I am going to continue to be with these characters as much as I can until then in whatever way I am allowed.

And I am happy.

I am not trying to say my way of thinking is right mind you, but with all the negativity in this one thread alone I just wanted to have a little spark of positive though.

Thank you Canadian Turtle. I am not certain if anyone has said that yet? But it was very kind of you to take the time to come here and share what news you have garnered with us. I really do hope things work out with this new film and that the characterizations in it are as good as they were in the last film.

You can feel free to reply to me and tell me any manner of things about me not understanding anything or what not. But I have read all of your posts, I do. I just honestly don't care. We have gotten so many wonderful things from this property in the last 6-7 years, that I can't complain.

And I have said what I want to say now. Thank you! :tlove:

[turkishproverb]

I have 3 things to say in response to say that

1. Your right, I forgot to thank Canadian turtle. Thanks!

2. Good points on all the complaining. I do a little, but I also post positives sometimes. I see where your coming from though.

3. Who did your sig pic? :tcool:

[FearlessLeader]

3. Who did your sig pic? :tcool:

Eric Talbot did that piece for me at Fanexpo in Toronto last year!

It's a beautiful piece I really like his work! :)

[turkishproverb]

Cool. Nice one.

[Andrew NDB]

Please. It was about as dark as the v.1 comics EVER were.

Ah. I guess I probably missed the deleted scenes with Oroku Saki blowing up or his head getting chopped off, the TMNT drinking beers, swords getting rammed through stomachs visibly coming out of enemies' backs, Foot committing seppuku gorily, Donatello jamming his staff into opponent's necks bloodily, TMNT dropping S bombs, blood flying left and right across the page, and other bits. I give you the full benefit of the doubt and, one step further, even envy that you got to see the full cut of the movie that includes these deleted scenes.

Heck, the return of shredder had jokes, even if it would adapt to far less time count.

I guess I'm confused here. You believe the presence of jokes in a thing makes a thing less mature? I'm not sure where you're coming from here.

The movie was what I state it was.

Afraid not. I love it, I can watch it over and over (and it's the only TMNT movie I can have on with friends over and not be embarrassed over), but it's still TMNT Lite... some kind of TMNT Mirage-Cartoon hybrid that sells the former short (not Terribly short, but noticeably) and does the latter too much credit.

[TristanHuwJones]

See, I tend to think that as long as a TV show like FF, BttS and, as the first movies proved, the Old toon are on the air, you're never going to get a movie remotely similar to the comics. There might be some nice nods and all that, but the studios and investors are going to expect what's popular.

Until the comics become popular again, the chances (in my mind anyway) of seeing a faithful Mirage movie are zero and none. Spiderman and the X-men movies all came at a point when there were no TV Shows, same with Begins (the Batman started as a response to its production), which was why they were as faithful to the source material as they were. All there really was at the time was the comics and the toylines (there's your proof that a toyline can continue without a cartoon actually, if a company is willing to try).

I'd love to see a Mirage-y movie probably more than anyone (I even started writing one for fun), but until the comics become better sellers and get the recognition amongst both the fanbase in general and comic stores they deserve, I just don't think it'll happen. That said-- buy the comics people! ;)

[Andrew NDB]

See, I tend to think that as long as a TV show like FF, BttS and, as the first movies proved, the Old toon are on the air, you're never going to get a movie remotely similar to the comics.

Never is a strong word. It only takes one up-and-coming director that's a Mirage fan (alternately, who becomes familiar with the Mirage TMNT) with a hit or two under his belt who takes up TMNT as a labor of love. With enough stock to have, if not carte blanche, then enough pull to make more or less exactly the movie they want to make with little/no pressure to make toys and make absolutely sure it offends absolutely no one anywhere of any age.

I agree there's almost better odds at winning big at the casino on a given night, but it's far from impossible. It happens all the time.

That said-- buy the comics people! ;)

There's nothing I'd wish to see more than more people reading the comics. And yes, what's good for the goose is good for the gander here.

[Dragon Turtle]

See, I tend to think that as long as a TV show like FF, BttS and, as the first movies proved, the Old toon are on the air, you're never going to get a movie remotely similar to the comics. There might be some nice nods and all that, but the studios and investors are going to expect what's popular.


If that is the case then there never be a faithful Mirage adaption, since there will most likely always be some form of kid related show in the works and any investor who is remotely familiar with the TMNT franchise will look back on the billions it has made as kids property.



Until the comics become popular again, the chances (in my mind anyway) of seeing a faithful Mirage movie are zero and none. Spiderman and the X-men movies all came at a point when there were no TV Shows, same with Begins (the Batman started as a response to its production), which was why they were as faithful to the source material as they were. All there really was at the time was the comics and the toylines (there's your proof that a toyline can continue without a cartoon actually, if a company is willing to try).


The comics have long way to go before it could even challenge the cartoons in popularity, but if movies such Spiderman and the X-Men are the measuring sticks for faithful movie adaptations, then something like that isn't really that impossible for the ninja turtles.

[Andrew NDB]

To be fair, and it's not that I don't want to see Mirage TMNT doing gangbusters in sales, but I don't think the sales of a given comic have ever had anything to do with whether or not a faithful adaption gets to the screen.

I don't think Hellboy over at Dark Horse Comics was ever pulling Batman or X-Men sales, yet Guillmero Del Toro had a couple of hits under his belt, chose Hellboy as his next project, and nobody in Hollywood effed with him or tried to change his vision.

[TristanHuwJones]

This is true, but Hellboy also doesn't have the various different incarnations the Turtles have had (certainly not one of the most memorable and successful cartoon shows in history). Same with Sin City.

The popularity of the Turtles at the time certainly had a big say in how the movies turned out, which you can see just by looking at them. The original was a blend of the cartoon and the comic, because the comic had revolutionized the B&W boom of the 80's, and the cartoon was really going strong. When 2 came about it was all about trying to get Rocksteady and Bebop in there. 2k7's movie, while very much its own thing, also felt a lot like what was happening in the 2k3 season at the time (and it had the coloured bandanas).

If you don't have a cartoon running, and the comics are suddenly popular again, what do you think people are likely to look to for source material, especially if the comic manages/d to outlast the cartoon shows? I'm not saying it'll happen, but it's a possible scenario, and the only one (combined with yours Andrew) that's likely to get us a truly Mirage-esque movie.

[Andrew NDB]

This is true, but Hellboy also doesn't have the various different incarnations the Turtles have had (certainly not one of the most memorable and successful cartoon shows in history).

It certainly doesn't help.

Same with Sin City.

Another good example to my case, though. Even if there had been some kind of pre-existing "Sin City: The Animated Series" with Hartigan and Marv parading around saying "Darn!" and "Dang it!" while throwing bolas at costumed bad guys instead of bullets, Rodriguez had a track record with a studio, decided he liked the comics, and made the ****ing movie he wanted to make.

It also doesn't hurt that Rodriguez famously knows how to make quality movies on the cheap.

The popularity of the Turtles at the time certainly had a big say in how the movies turned out, which you can see just by looking at them. The original was a blend of the cartoon and the comic, because the comic had revolutionized the B&W boom of the 80's, and the cartoon was really going strong. When 2 came about it was all about trying to get Rocksteady and Bebop in there. 2k7's movie, while very much its own thing, also felt a lot like what was happening in the 2k3 season at the time (and it had the coloured bandanas).

If you don't have a cartoon running, and the comics are suddenly popular again, what do you think people are likely to look to for source material, especially if the comic manages/d to outlast the cartoon shows? I'm not saying it'll happen, but it's a possible scenario, and the only one (combined with yours Andrew) that's likely to get us a truly Mirage-esque movie.

I hear you, but TMNT 1 was just a traditional Hollywood/studio-spawned film. We lucked out that TPTB liked enough in the Mirage source material that a lot of it made it to the screen in some form, but let's not confuse the issue -- Golden Harvest saw a cartoon doing gangbusters, saw a toy line doing gangbusters, and a population of kiddies going crazy over TMNT, so they went to Mirage for movie rights, found a director, etc., and basically built the movie from the ground up on their end.

I'm not talking about that or suggesting that, and you can't compare that to Hellboy.

I'm talking about a director that has a hit or two under his belt, has a multi-picture deal with a studio and basically gets to pick his next film... not the other way around (the studio deciding they want to make TMNT Part 10 and then finding a director, etc.).

[Dragon Turtle]

I don't think Hellboy over at Dark Horse Comics was ever pulling Batman or X-Men sales, yet Guillmero Del Toro had a couple of hits under his belt, chose Hellboy as his next project, and nobody in Hollywood effed with him or tried to change his vision.

Right around the time the first Hellboy movie was made, the comics were in pretty bad shape, the movie basically saved the Hellboy comics.



If you don't have a cartoon running, and the comics are suddenly popular again, what do you think people are likely to look to for source material, especially if the comic manages/d to outlast the cartoon shows? I'm not saying it'll happen, but it's a possible scenario, and the only one (combined with yours Andrew) that's likely to get us a truly Mirage-esque movie.

Or you can have a studio see the value and money making potential in such a movie, and now would be the best time with movies such as the Dark Knight and Iron Man doing huge business at the boxoffice, which right now is the most realistic way of obtaining a Mirage-esque movie.

[Andrew NDB]

Or you can have a studio see the value and money making potential in such a movie, and now would be the best time with movies such as the Dark Knight and Iron Man doing huge business at the boxoffice, which right now is the most realistic way obtaining a Mirage-esque movie.

Precisely. Right now, insomuch as studios are concerned with superhero movies now, we're in "The Darkening" period... make'em as dark'n gritty as possible (literally, this is what is coming from studios' summits).

Which works fine for the TMNT, since all they need to do is just make a faithful take on the Mirage TMNT. Bam -- dark and gritty. They don't even need to make any changes beyond whatever is entailed in translating a comic book vision to the screen through the looking glass of a director with a vision.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

See, I tend to think that as long as a TV show like FF, BttS and, as the first movies proved, the Old toon are on the air, you're never going to get a movie remotely similar to the comics. There might be some nice nods and all that, but the studios and investors are going to expect what's popular.

Until the comics become popular again, the chances (in my mind anyway) of seeing a faithful Mirage movie are zero and none.

I think the first movie is "remotely similar" to the comics. It was darker than the cartoon, and followed a very similar plot. It also had similarities to the cartoon, which was important to make it as marketable as possible. I think blending the two versions of the turtles was, and still is, the best way to go.

[Canadian Turtle]

A few of you who have been "optimistic" thank you!

Reira - CRAZY cool Talbot piece, that guy is the man, I had the chance to chat with him a bit down in New York, but unfortunately he was not around when I was at Mirage. I hope to grab something similar to yours sometime.

Its not all bad that this thread has become an open debate on what the next movie should be about, compared to the past movies. In itself we see how rich our TMNT history has been with all versions good and bad, and those at Mirage share common opinions on the outcome of these products in some cases.

Thanks for not making it out to be any one persons fault or responsibility for any "injustice" that you may feel has been done to the property. Just remember it is a business which relies on a complex world of producers, money, and writers, all working for better or worse to bring what they think is the most commercially viable product while staying true to the property at the same time, this is no easy task. Keeping in mind also that Mirage reads what you say, even on here, and takes it into consideration so again if you have an opinion on it thank you for voicing that with some respect.

[CyberCubed]

The TMNT franchise cannot thrive without a cartoon on the air. There goes free advertising.

[Andrew NDB]

It also had similarities to the cartoon, which was important to make it as marketable as possible. I think blending the two versions of the turtles was, and still is, the best way to go.

I couldn't disagree more. There's no pleasing everyone and it's foolish to try.

In any case, they've tried everything but a straight-out adaption (and by straight adaption I'm not necessarily suggesting any kind of word-for-word, verbatim, panel-for-panel adaption like Sin City) of the Mirage TMNT material. In many ways, it's the last thing left to try.

[Dragon Turtle]

The TMNT franchise cannot thrive without a cartoon on the air. There goes free advertising.

Cartoons are not free.

[Drtooth]

I'm probably the only one here who liked and still likes the 2k7 movie, but it really came off more like an OVA of the current series, only CGI, theatrically released, and with different voice actors. Of course, it didn't hurt that the 2k3 series had the turtles with the same personalities as their first 3 movies.... unlike the OT vs those films.

I really want to see a fifth movie, and I want to see it dark and gritty,don't forget it's up to film producers, a studio, and other financial backers. 2k7 did well enough to warrant a sequel... but only in the terms that 2K7 was low budget, and did pretty good initially with the merchandising. We were going to get another film by the same studio, but they wanted some goof ball comedy film with (and this is an educated guess since they have an ex-Dreamworks guy now) celebrity voice actors, fart jokes, and useless pop culture references (and I mean, outside of the WB forced advertisement for Gilmore Girls) by the bowlful. A fifth movie on the part of another company is going to be an amazing feat just to pitch... and they really need to strike while the iron is hot, since the comic book movie fad won't last forever.

But then again, I bet 90% of casual, nostalgic fans will whine that the turtles don't say cowabunga a hundred times, and that Bebop and Rocksteady aren't in the film.

[CyberCubed]

Cartoons are not free.

For 4kids/Mirage they are not of course, but for the viewers, as long as its not on cable, its free advertising to bring a new generation of kids into the TMNT fandom.

TMNT cannot possibly thrive on just being a comic book series. That's why I find it truly bizarre that people say, "Be optimistic" when the cartoon and possibly toyline are both ending.

Its as I said, oh wow, TMNT is going back to being an obscure comic book franchise that nobody buy's outside of us hardcore fans anyway. Well isn't that just nice?

[Drtooth]

TMNT cannot possibly thrive on just being a comic book series. That's why I find it truly bizarre that people say, "Be optimistic" when the cartoon and possibly toyline are both ending.

Okay... here's something... let's say they were going to make a new season of TMNT. Now, following their model, the next season would have some action figure based plot line, the characters would further get Flanderized, the show would still be lighter and airier than it should be, and the fan base would complain about how terrible it is, and pretty much beg for it to be canceled and then whine when it is.

Now one of 2 things can happen. They'll use this as a strategic restructuring, trying to come up with a better concept for the current show in 2 years... or we'll have to wait 3-5 years for another relaunch. Now, that sounds much better than having the Turtles use the power of music to find the 7 crystal notes so they can free April from the silent dimension, or Teenage Mutant Firefightin' Turtles: Fightin' Fires in SPA-A-A-A-ACE!

Besides, 4kids will no doubt keep rerunning TMNT for the foreseeable future. it's one of their biggest hits, even in reruns. look how long they reran Sonic X, and it has less than half the episodes TMNT has.

[Dragon Turtle]

I'm probably the only one here who liked and still likes the 2k7 movie, but it really came off more like an OVA of the current series, only CGI, theatrically released, and with different voice actors. Of course, it didn't hurt that the 2k3 series had the turtles with the same personalities as their first 3 movies.... unlike the OT vs those films.


I liked the 2k7 movie, a bit more action (which is the only real thing that will bring in casual non TMNT fans), a bit more character and story development, and perhaps better human models, and I personally wouldn't hesitate in saying the 2k7 movie was the best TMNT movie ever produced.



TMNT cannot possibly thrive on just being a comic book series. That's why I find it truly bizarre that people say, "Be optimistic" when the cartoon and possibly toyline are both ending.


As far as the future of TMNT as a kids franchise is concerned, there really doesn't need to be any doom and gloom, since TMNT has already proven it can come back and find a new audience. The reality is that cartoons and toylines end, it's just that simple, but it doesn't mean they won't come back, TMNT has already proved itself.

[Andrew NDB]

But then again, I bet 90% of casual, nostalgic fans will whine that the turtles don't say cowabunga a hundred times, and that Bebop and Rocksteady aren't in the film.

F***'em. It's time to stop punishing the TMNT as a franchise just because they're not aware of the TMNT's Mirage comic beginnings. It's not the TMNT's fault for that, is it?

[Kendamu]

F***'em. It's time to stop punishing the TMNT as a franchise just because they're not aware of the TMNT's Mirage comic beginnings. It's not the TMNT's fault for that, is it?
Hence why I think that another movie should be put off by about another 5 or 10 years. By that point, all the nostalgia freaks will be kids who grew up with 2k3. With that market in mind, a more faithful adaption can be made and appreciated by people who grew up with a continuity similar to the one many of us are wanting to see adapted. By that time, all the casuals who are our age won't really give a crap and, if they do, they'll be outnumbered by a bunch of people in their 20s who grew up on 2k3.

EDIT: I am of the personal belief, however, that characters such as Krang, Bebop, and Rocksteady can easily fit into a more serious continuity if they were treated more like their OT Season 1 selves. I don't expect it to ever happen, but I do think it's possible.

[CyberCubed]

Okay... here's something... let's say they were going to make a new season of TMNT. Now, following their model, the next season would have some action figure based plot line, the characters would further get Flanderized, the show would still be lighter and airier than it should be, and the fan base would complain about how terrible it is, and pretty much beg for it to be canceled and then whine when it is.

But we don't know that. BTTS did make the show a bit darker, they thankfully dropped "It's Ninja Time" and the actual color and tone of the show isn't so bright like it is in FF. I also like the character designs for the Turtles more this season.

Thankfully with Splinter rescued the whole cyber world theme would be dropped, and if the 3 Shredder thing was any indication, next season could have been great. I don't doubt they'd throw in some toy adverts in there, but I feel it could have been only up from here sans the animation.

Now one of 2 things can happen. They'll use this as a strategic restructuring, trying to come up with a better concept for the current show in 2 years... or we'll have to wait 3-5 years for another relaunch.

That's what I don't want, another re-launch. I wouldn't mind the show sitting on the shelf for awhile before they go back to it, but I'd rather they just continue where they left off from the end of BTTS rather than another re-boot. If 4kids still airs reruns its not like kids would be lost, and there's no need to re-introduce everything again.


As far as the future of TMNT as a kids franchise is concerned, there really doesn't need to be any doom and gloom, since TMNT has already proven it can come back and find a new audience. The reality is that cartoons and toylines end, it's just that simple, but it doesn't mean they won't come back, TMNT has already proved itself.

Before 4kids, there were two failed attempts to bring the Turtles back. That CG-I show that no network wanted, and the proposed WB cartoon.

4kids took a chance on the show when nobody else wanted to. Without 4kids, where can a cartoon air? When 2k3 reruns aired on Cartoon Network the show tanked in the ratings. If there isn't a viable cartoon channel for a new show, TMNT is screwed.

Which is why its a shame 4kids is dropping it, Mirage really doesn't have any options otherwise, especially since KidsWb died.

[Drtooth]

That's what I don't want, another re-launch. I wouldn't mind the show sitting on the shelf for awhile before they go back to it, but I'd rather they just continue where they left off from the end of BTTS rather than another re-boot. If 4kids still airs reruns its not like kids would be lost, and there's no need to re-introduce everything again.

I see what you're getting at, and my view still stands. It would be great to have one last season that closes up all the loose ends, (having a small arc where the turtles go back to the future to save Cody from Darius... The Shredder Wars... and all that), but I don't think we'd get that. I think BTTS was halfway decent, in as much as only half the episodes were good (Of course, I'm estimating the season finale is going to be one of them)... in fact, if you cut out most of the redundancies and the 2 terrible episodes, you would have gotten a much more positive outlook by the fans. I like what they were trying to do with BTTS... I just wish they stuck closer to it.

And whos to say that 4Kids won't be Mirage's licensing partner 5 years from now? All they have to do to keep afloat is keep making T-Shirts and stuff like that. And I still say a reboot with another tone in mind... like Ultimate TMNT... would be their best chance. Preferably after a fifth movie actually gets made. And who knows. Maybe the market would open up for new TMNT toys.

Look at Batman. We had Batman TAS, then Batman Beyond, then Justice League, then Batman Begins, The Batman, and Brave and the Bold. And the last 2 aren't even a full year apart from when the last one ended and the first one began. Spider-Man too. Since the movies started there have been 2 different animated series. That's what keeps these comic book based cartoons on the air... they're all different incarnations of the same thing, sort of like how they are in comic form. Plus, it helps them to stay fresh.

[Dragon Turtle]

Before 4kids, there were two failed attempts to bring the Turtles back. That CG-I show that no network wanted, and the proposed WB cartoon.


No one wanted them then because there was no precedence that the TMNT franchise could be revived and be profitable, but now you have the TMNT 2k3 series as proof that it can.


Without 4kids, where can a cartoon air?


4Kids is not dropping the TMNT franchise, TMNT will remain in rotation in 4Kid's animation block as long as they need filler material.

And then there's the internet, digital downloads, dvds, cable channels (such as Disney XD), this is not 1997, there are many alternative media outlets were the 2k3 series can pop up.

[CyberCubed]

Which is what I'm saying, if 4kids is letting the franchise rest for awhile it doesn't matter, but if they ever feel TMNT is profitable again, I'd rather the new series be in continuity with Seasons 1-7 rather than being another re-boot. There is no reason to throw the universe they built up away just to do the same thing a second time, its still the same damn Mirage source material.

[Cipher]

Which is what I'm saying, if 4kids is letting the franchise rest for awhile it doesn't matter, but if they ever feel TMNT is profitable again, I'd rather the new series be in continuity with Seasons 1-7 rather than being another re-boot. There is no reason to throw the universe they built up away just to do the same thing a second time, its still the same damn Mirage source material.If the next series was just going to be a "Mirage for the kiddies" thing again, then they should just go ahead and attach it to the current continuity. Otherwise it would have what I like to call "The Batman Syndrome." That show basically tried to do the exact same things as B:TAS minus the charm, so why not stop beating around the bush and just continue B:TAS?

But there are a plethora of other directions for a Turtles show. Archie adaptations (which are already decent for kids' TV), a completely new concept like the cancelled WB cartoon, etc. Even, dare I say it with bated breath, an uncensored Mirage adaptation (yeah, I know, it' won't happen).

[Andrew NDB]

Which is what I'm saying, if 4kids is letting the franchise rest for awhile it doesn't matter, but if they ever feel TMNT is profitable again, I'd rather the new series be in continuity with Seasons 1-7 rather than being another re-boot.

Of course you would rather see that, but they're not worried about staying in continuity. None of you are even in the demographic that matters for a cartoon like that... they don't and shouldn't care that you want them to make more seasons in continuity. A generation of little tykes have outgrown the TMNT cartoon and 4Kids/TPTB are going to be looking to reboot and rehook another generation of little tykes on TMNT in due time... that pretty much means clean sweep of continuity.

Vicious circle... over and over and over.

[Roseangelo]

Vicious circle... over and over and over.

Much like this conversation...

[Andrew NDB]

Much like this conversation...

Yeah. A case of... message board imitating art, imitating life?

[Roseangelo]

Yeah. A case of... message board imitating art, imitating life?

Or perhaps just the inescapable fate of anything connected to the TMNT.

[Jester]

Tristen really hit it by saying that the TMNT movies seem to imitate the other media, if the comic is the only media, could we expect a Mirage-esque movie?

[Cipher]

Tristen really hit it by saying that the TMNT movies seem to imitate the other media, if the comic is the only media, could we expect a Mirage-esque movie?Yeah, I totally remember that scene in the first movie when the guys all rushed into the Technodrome and...oh, wait.

[Dragon Turtle]

If the next series was just going to be a "Mirage for the kiddies" thing again, then they should just go ahead and attach it to the current continuity. Otherwise it would have what I like to call "The Batman Syndrome." That show basically tried to do the exact same things as B:TAS minus the charm, so why not stop beating around the bush and just continue B:TAS?


The Batman didn't try to do the same thing as B:TAS, at least not in the beginning. Conceptually, there was nothing wrong with The Batman, it was the execution that was subpar.

I personally wouldn't mind if they kept the 2k3 continuity, but I would much rather see them do something new.



Of course you would rather see that, but they're not worried about staying in continuity. None of you are even in the demographic that matters for a cartoon like that... they don't and shouldn't care that you want them to make more seasons in continuity. A generation of little tykes have outgrown the TMNT cartoon and 4Kids/TPTB are going to be looking to reboot and rehook another generation of little tykes on TMNT in due time... that pretty much means clean sweep of continuity.

Vicious circle... over and over and over.

There is precedence of a cartoon staying in the same continuity after a lay off, especially if the same production company is involved. Unlike the shift between the OT and the 2k3 cartoon, any future cartoon would probably have the same tone as the 2k3 cartoon. And I don't believe that Mirage/Playmates/4Kids are going to let the franchise rest for too long.

[CyberCubed]

From the Lloyd Goldfine interview at the comic con, the guy seems rather proud of the Turtle universe he created. If that guy is still at 4kids years later, I wonder if he would get the chance to continue where he left off. I'm also sure Peter Laird would rather see the 2k3 universe continue rather than another re-boot.

The fact that Pete took 2k3 elements like the Battle Nexus, Hun and the Ancient One and put them in the Mirage comics canon says a lot in itself.

They will almost market a TMNT toon at kids, there's no way around that. The 2k3 series had to be a re-boot because the original 80's cartoon was nothing like the Mirage source material, whereas the 2k3 series, although it changed a lot of stuff, still mostly adapted a lot of the early comics.

Its a damn shame when Bruce Timm can make the DCAU last 450 episodes and 14 years, yet Peter Laird and Lloyd Goldfine can't do the same for TMNT 2k3.

[Jester]

Its a damn shame when Bruce Timm can make the DCAU last 450 episodes and 14 years, yet Peter Laird and Lloyd Goldfine can't do the same for TMNT 2k3.
Yes...but there were gap in there...

[Dragon Turtle]

Yes...but there were gap in there...

No real gaps, just different properties.

[gobo]

Plus, it's just absurd to expect TMNT to fair as well as DC or Marvel franchises... even though they came close.

[Cipher]

The fact that Pete took 2k3 elements like the Battle Nexus, Hun and the Ancient One and put them in the Mirage comics canon says a lot in itself.When the hell did that happen?

Its a damn shame when Bruce Timm can make the DCAU last 450 episodes and 14 years, yet Peter Laird and Lloyd Goldfine can't do the same for TMNT 2k3.Me thinks it would help if the Turtles also had an extended universe spanning hundreds of different characters. Like The Question. The Question could make anything good.

[TristanHuwJones]

When the hell did that happen?

The Battlenexus has become a focus of Vol.4, The Ancient One appeared in the Leo movie prequel comic and Hun is going to be in Tales #56, 59 and 64.

Me thinks it would help if the Turtles also had an extended universe spanning hundreds of different characters. Like The Question. The Question could make anything good.

IF the comic sells well enough to continue into next year, I think you'll find that there'll be some expansion. I know Dan would like to see the rogues gallery expanded, and I'd like to bring back some one-off characters that've been used in the past (provided I can keep writing for Mirage if things do continue).

[veemonjosh]

Its a damn shame when Bruce Timm can make the DCAU last 450 episodes and 14 years, yet Peter Laird and Lloyd Goldfine can't do the same for TMNT 2k3.

Yes, but the DCAU was made up of several shows. TMNT 2K3 was just one, split up into three parts ala B:TAS.

I mean, did any of the individual DCAU shows last 158 episodes? No, so why complain?

[Cipher]

The Battlenexus has become a focus of Vol.4, The Ancient One appeared in the Leo movie prequel comic and Hun is going to be in Tales #56, 59 and 64.I knew about The Battle Nexus and Hun. The Ancient One was what got me, since CyberCubed said he'd been integrated into Mirage canon (which the movie prequels do not fall into).

[Jester]

Yes, but JLU and the DCAU takes in the entire DC Comics (which is a might redundant...:P) Universe. The Mirage Universe is nowhere near that large. Though it would be cool to see other titles from Mirage based on the other characters from the universe, like the Justice Force.

[Andrew NDB]

Tristen really hit it by saying that the TMNT movies seem to imitate the other media, if the comic is the only media, could we expect a Mirage-esque movie?

Yeah, I totally remember that scene in the first movie when the guys all rushed into the Technodrome and...oh, wait.

I knew about The Battle Nexus and Hun. The Ancient One was what got me, since CyberCubed said he'd been integrated into Mirage canon (which the movie prequels do not fall into).

Correct. And if anyone says that the fourth movie is somehow compatible with the Mirage comic universe, I'm calling horsesh*t right now.

[CyberCubed]

I mean, did any of the individual DCAU shows last 158 episodes? No, so why complain?

Doesn't mean the 2k3 universe can't continue with different subtitles or adventures or whatever.

Outside of a direct-to-DVD movie, I don't see the Mirage universe TMNT with all red bandana's ever being accurately represented.

[turkishproverb]

Me thinks it would help if the Turtles also had an extended universe spanning hundreds of different characters. Like The Question. The Question could make anything good.

See, i always thought that was a big flaw of mirage.

Fugitoid could carry an all ages series on his own easy. Casey could star in something targeting older people a la punisher pretty easily. All the old heroes have their places they could fit, as cameos or otherwise. Heck, a superhero book starring their younger selves would be great.

Mirage HAS other characters, they just won't USE them without the turtles. A shame, really. As much as I like the turtles, some of these characters could hold their own media spotlight for a bit.

Heck, a 2k3 universe Fugitoid series would be great...

[Andrew NDB]

Doesn't mean the 2k3 universe can't continue with different subtitles or adventures or whatever.

Sure it can. You get a major toy company and Fox and investors in the room and discuss a cartoon that's now become tired (speaking only ratings-wise) and whose audience has mostly moved on, they're going to want to -- eventually -- come back to the table with a new incarnation that is as accessible as possible to a new generation of little tykes carrying as little baggage as possible. This almost guarantees some kind of reboot and new take.

[tOkKa]

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumb_238/1203284971VadCR9.jpg

-->> .. ugh o gawd ,my head..


oi .. medic..

[Drtooth]

If the next series was just going to be a "Mirage for the kiddies" thing again, then they should just go ahead and attach it to the current continuity. Otherwise it would have what I like to call "The Batman Syndrome." That show basically tried to do the exact same things as B:TAS minus the charm, so why not stop beating around the bush and just continue B:TAS?


Really really surprised Zarius didn't come in here and say something about that one yet.

NO! The Batman wasn't TRYING to be Batman TAS (at least, not at first... maybe around season 4). it was doing its own thing, using Batman Begins as inspiration... sort of like how Batman TAS used the 1990 movie as inspiration. In fact, first season a couple of the episodes actually had some thematic similarities.

And while not as beloved as Batman TAS (mainly due to the awkward, lackluster, and cartoonish 3rd season), it didn't need to be a clone, nor did it have to cater to Batman TAS fans. And by that logic, 2K3 should have featured the EXACT same things seen in the OT, and not have had room to grow and become its own thing. Of course, let's not kid ourselves. We'd wind up doing the OT with different writers and voice actors trying to copy the OT, and not measuring up... either causing a palid imitation, or at best, a retread.

[Dragon Turtle]

IF the comic sells well enough to continue into next year, I think you'll find that there'll be some expansion. I know Dan would like to see the rogues gallery expanded, and I'd like to bring back some one-off characters that've been used in the past (provided I can keep writing for Mirage if things do continue).

Will we be getting our first look at King Cobra in TMNT #59 and any chances of seeing Li Xiao Yoa & Xiaolong this year?

[Kendamu]

I have to agree with what was said earlier about expanding the universe and getting more books out there. I would totally buy monthlies of Tales, Casey, and Nobody instead of Tales, Batman, and Detective.

[Cipher]

And while not as beloved as Batman TAS (mainly due to the awkward, lackluster, and cartoonish 3rd season), it didn't need to be a clone, nor did it have to cater to Batman TAS fans. And by that logic, 2K3 should have featured the EXACT same things seen in the OT, and not have had room to grow and become its own thing. Of course, let's not kid ourselves. We'd wind up doing the OT with different writers and voice actors trying to copy the OT, and not measuring up... either causing a palid imitation, or at best, a retread.My wording may have been poor. The Batman's problem was that it was too similar in conception to B:TAS, that concept being a moderately serious children's action cartoon. When you look at B:TAS, the 60's series, and Brave and the Bold, they all stand as completely seperate versions of the property with different tones. On a larger scale, The Batman falls dangerously close to B:TAS.

TMNT 2003 worked because it took a radically different direction from TMNT1987. It doesn't invitie comparison. It's for this reason that I hope the next Turtles series could either have a new tone, or it goes the route of dark action cartoon again, that it has new origins and a rearranging of the mythos (for instance, an Archie adaption would be different enough from any series yet as to keep itself seperate). Not that I realistically expect that to happen, and not that a retread couldn't be good in its own right.

[Kendamu]

It doesn't invite comparison, but that's all the casuals who remember the OT did and that's why it wasn't that popular amongst the older crowd. It was too radically different from the OT.

[TristanHuwJones]

Will we be getting our first look at King Cobra in TMNT #59 and any chances of seeing Li Xiao Yoa & Xiaolong this year?

Yyyyyep! Hun, Lin and the Razorbacks come back in #59, along with the debut of King Cobra, and Li Xiao Yao (but not Xialong) will appear in #64 ("The Burning Man"). Jim's doing the art for Burning Man, Paul is doing #59, and the Razorbacks come back in #61, with some familiar friends :evilgrin:

[CyberCubed]

We don't need another cartoon. They should have just continued BTTS. You don't revamp all the character designs in the show for a measly 13 episodes.

God, I can't stand un-needed reboots. Its bad enough they constantly do it to Batman.

[Drtooth]

God, I can't stand un-needed reboots. Its bad enough they constantly do it to Batman.

Yeah, because that did absolutely NOTHING for his franchise.

[CyberCubed]

Yeah, because that did absolutely NOTHING for his franchise.

We did not need The Batman at all.

[Dragon Turtle]

We did not need The Batman at all.

The Batman wasn't made for us, it was made for little kids.

[trustno1]

The Batman wasn't made for us, it was made for little kids.

just like 2k3 was not made for us. we got lucky in that we could watch it constantly and it had a quality to it that was like batman. we could have easily started off with something like fast forward or back to the sewers or something even less for an older audience. the reason **** is falling appart is because kids stopped watching the show. ratings fell. kids lost interest in the turtles. if kids are not interested toys do not sell. if the toys are not selling the toy company will stop backing the show and focus something that will sell (playmates are doing star trek now which has a much broader audience than tmnt). if the show is not being backed by its main source of finance then it ceases and if ratings are low then the network or studio cuts funding and reassesses it. mirage have two sources of income - licensing and publishing. if licensing is failing because kids are not interested any more then what is left is publishing. if publishing fails then mirage shuts shop. this is reality. it is time everyone stopped whining about a show finishing that was not even marketed towards them and stopped crying about toys that have been failing for at least two years now and started doing something to help.

[CyberCubed]

So what do we have to look forward to with the TMNT franchise?

Vol. 4 will be wrapped up in 6 issues, Tales is ending in 2010, the cartoon is over, and the toys are...let's not go there. NECA may not even continue past Wave 2, and we have a videogame for Wii coming.

And we're suppose to be optimistic? I'm being serious here in a non-joking manner. What do we honestly have to be happy about?

[TristanHuwJones]

So what do we have to look forward to with the TMNT franchise?

Vol. 4 will be wrapped up in 6 issues, Tales is ending in 2010, the cartoon is over, and the toys are...let's not go there. NECA may not even continue past Wave 2, and we have a videogame for Wii coming.

And we're suppose to be optimistic? I'm being serious here in a non-joking manner. What do we honestly have to be happy about?

I did say that no decision regarding Tales is going to be made until June. Nobody knows. They might drop Tales and start a new ongoing. They might continue Tales and change the format. They might continue Tales and keep the format. Vol.4 MAY be wrapped up in 6 issues. Peter said 6 was a rough number. It could be more, it could be less. Only Peter knows.

Fact of the matter is, and it's been the same answer from everyone else that's already responded, the comics are the only thing you can actually do anything about. If you don't want to, that's your deal. I can't make you do anything, no one can. Where did you hear Tales was ending anyway? And who's to say that Pete will stop the comics altogether? Vol.4 will end.

Someone else mentioned that Next Mutation came like a year after the old toon finished. 2k3 came what, a few years later and lasted seven?

You've got ongoing talks about a movie happening, you've got the documentary happening, the Wii game (which might not necessarily be the last - if it's successful there's always chance of Ubisoft wanting to do more), Tales will go through at least until the end of this year, Forever War starting at the end of the year and continuing into 2010 (from what I've been told), and if the Archie trades do well, then there was some discussion of them bringing out more.

How you view it is up to you, but really, crying about something never accomplished anything.