TMNT rogues gallery expansion

[Dragon Turtle]

With Hun and several more new villains set to appear in the comics later this year, what type of new villains would people like to see the turtles face, or what direction should existing villains be taken in.

I always thought it would be great to see each of the turtles get their own individual nemesis, creating new story possibilities and advancing each turtle's own character developement.

I would like to see the Foot Clan removed from the street crime level threat that they have, for the most part, been portrayed as, and placed into more high level types of operations, they could own a worldwide monopoly on espionage and black ops.

Leave the street crime to the gangs and other organized crime syndicates, such as the mafias, triads, and Yakuza, all of which can be developed into their own individual threats.

[CyberCubed]

If you're talking about the Mirage comics, why not bring in Armaggon? Didn't Peter Laird create him? I always wished to see him in something else, like the old or new toon, the toys, but it never happened.

Anyway, the Mirage comics rogues gallery is abysmal. Its almost all one-shot aliens or monsters.

At least the 80's cartoon, the 2k3 series, and the Archie series had a rogues gallery worth mentioning.

Mirage continuity on the other hand is sad.

[trustno1]

Anyway, the Mirage comics rogues gallery is abysmal. Its almost all one-shot aliens or monsters.

and what was armaggon?

[Ninjinister]

and what was armaggon?

None of the above.

[trustno1]

None of the above.

sorry, i was thinking of war for a moment there (not sure why). still a mutant shark man isn't far off from "monster".

[CyberCubed]

The point is all the one-shots in the Mirage universe are usually resolved at the end of the issue. There is no on-going rogues gallery like the other TMNT universes have:

- Shredder: Killed in first issue. His clone is killed by Issue 23.
- Karai: Forms a true with the Turtles
- Baxter, in second appearance turns himself into a cyborg and is defeated, only a brief cameo in Vol. 4.
- Rat King, dies in first issue. Becomes spiritual
- Leatherhead, becomes a good guy
- Savanti Romero, ok I suppose you can count him
- Triceratons, fine, but they appear too irregularly. They never invaded the Earth like the 2k3 series did.


And in all seriousness, who else is there besides various Foot Clan members like Cha Ocho and the like?


The rogues gallery for the two cartoons and the Archie series is far superior.

[trustno1]

why dont you stop raggin on the mirage comics not having villains until you have seen what is coming. tristan and dan both said there are more villains being set up in the next few months. i would rather have decent character development than have villains spat at me each week. the OT and new toon also had far more stories than the mirage comics and even then archie poached half of their villains from the OT. everyone knows that the mirage universe lacks villains. the point of this thread is finding out what people are interesetd in seeing in villains. mirage are actually doing something about it but you do not seem to give two *****.

and wait. savanti counts in his three appearances but the whole return of the shredder and return to new york stories don't? karai has been in and out of the comics constantly since city at war. leatherhead was never a villain. baxter had almost the entire vol.2 devoted to him.

its not as though they could not put more villains in. murphy was the main writer of tales and while he introduced some villains most of his stories were one-shots. his stories were usually very good but they did not often involve reusable villains (or they did but he chose to tell other stories).

[Ninjinister]

Leatherhead never was a villain in Mirage dude >.< In fact, he never even fought the Turtles until his second appearance, when he had just gone nuts. He befriended them prior to that.

[Cipher]

And in all seriousness, who else is there besides various Foot Clan members like Cha Ocho and the like?As far as I'm aware, here's the recurring villain list for Mirage:

- Foot Clan (Officially have a truce with the TMNT but conflict still exists with various members and mystics.)
- Complete Carnage (Still at large. Killed by Leonardo in the far flung future.)
- Savanti Romero (Still at large.)
- Triceratons (Like the Foot, at peace with the TMNT on the surface)
- Oroku Saki Shark (Still at large. And hey, closest thing to Armaggon we'll see.)
- Cha Ocho (Still has feud with Leo.)
- Razorback (Little is known about him or if he's active by the Volume 4 era.)
- Hunter Mason (Ditto.)
- Xihadists, Vampire gang, Nexus Warriors

Plus various one-shot Tales villains which could reappear.

So it's not exactly dead, but the existing villains don't seem to be used very much (Carnage has been grossly overlooked) and there could be a few more. I know Tristan's been saying he plans to introdruce more villains, which is cool.

Here's the thing though, and I'm paraphrasing someone's post in another thread: Mirage TMNT is less about the Turtles fighting villains, and more about the Turtles trying to live their lives, trying to be normal in a completely surreal world. I'm all for more villains and action, but I wouldn't want them to lose that down-to-Earth aspect that comes from not fighting crime. That's what I love about the comics.

[Dragon Turtle]

The point is all the one-shots in the Mirage universe are usually resolved at the end of the issue. There is no on-going rogues gallery like the other TMNT universes have:


The point of this thread is to brainstorm new ideas for new villains or moving the development of older villains beyond one-dimensional status for the future of the TMNT franchise, not to compare and debate the different TMNT Universe villains. If you have any new ideas or suggestions, feel free to post them.

[TristanHuwJones]

Hunter Mason will appear in three issues of Tales, Lin will appear in three, Diamondback (from #36) will appear again this year, Razorback will appear, as will other villains (but if I say, I spoil, so sorry). The Elite that was mangled at the end of #36 will also be back. Complete Carnage has appeared a few times now (another villain I'd love to use). Baxter is also back in Don's mini-series.

Dan also brought back the magi from the original Tales. I don't have them onhand unfortunately, but someone here knows what I'm talking about. The Thieving God Idol followed by the Werewolf dimension one (art by Andie Tong).

If Tales continues, you can bet your arse they'll all be back, as will the villains that have appeared and will appear in Dan's stories. As long as everyone feels THE STORIES are appropriate (what Cipher said about the focus of the comics is spot on). You can have new villains, but you can't force them.

Anyway, villains are coming and hopefully they'll stay. Bottom line is, without support, you're right, the books are done for and those villains become one/two/three-shots.

[Vegita-San]

I always thought it would be great to see each of the turtles get their own individual nemesis, creating new story possibilities and advancing each turtle's own character developement.




I love that idea.

Although I know it's next to nill, I would LOVE to use the Battle Nexus to bring villains from other universes to meet the turtles.

Tempestra from the original toon always had some potential, and could be used as a sort of elemental witch like character the turtles could face :).
Since she seems to control all the elements (Air, Water, Lightning, etc)

[turkishproverb]

How about an evil Utrom in a larger than life exoskeleton, leading an army of evil robots and mutants? :P

[Dragon Turtle]

Hunter Mason will appear in three issues of Tales, Lin will appear in three, Diamondback (from #36) will appear again this year, Razorback will appear, as will other villains (but if I say, I spoil, so sorry). The Elite that was mangled at the end of #36 will also be back. Complete Carnage has appeared a few times now (another villain I'd love to use). Baxter is also back in Don's mini-series.



Will more of Razorback's past and motivations be revealed in upcoming issues of tales?

So Baxter is coming back, that's nice, I always liked how Baxter was his own villain in the Mirage comics, and he makes an excellent arch-nemesis for Donatello. And hopefully the Mangled Elite Foot Ninja can inject some personality into the Foot Elite.


I love that idea.

Although I know it's next to nill, I would LOVE to use the Battle Nexus to bring villains from other universes to meet the turtles.

Tempestra from the original toon always had some potential, and could be used as a sort of elemental witch like character the turtles could face :).
Since she seems to control all the elements (Air, Water, Lightning, etc)

The Battle Nexus could be used introduce new villains, in fact I believe it's a given, although I would also like to see new allies introduced, the turtles could use more of them as well.


How about an evil Utrom in a larger than life exoskeleton, leading an army of evil robots and mutants? :P

If he's interesting, then I say why not.

[CyberCubed]

Baxter was always underused in the comics.

Yet another example of both cartoons taking full potential of an underused character from the comics. I swear, Pete and the other Mirage dudes could learn a thing or two from the cartoon writers.

There also needs to be more mobsters in the comics. Like the ones in the Image series who kidnapped Shadow.

[TristanHuwJones]

Will more of Razorback's past and motivations be revealed in upcoming issues of tales?

So Baxter is coming back, that's nice, I always liked how Baxter was his own villain in the Mirage comics, and he makes an excellent arch-nemesis for Donatello. And hopefully the Mangled Elite Foot Ninja can inject some personality into the Foot Elite.


Razorback is still something of an enigma, but I do have a big backstory that will be hinted at on the last page of #61. In my mind, it ties into why you don't see any superheroes in a world you know they exist in. But that's something for later (if things go well this year).

The Mangled Elite is more of a cameo at the moment, but when you see where he is placed and think about the situation it puts a new slant on certain characters and a big question mark over the intentions of others.

[Coola Yagami]

Pardon my ignorance... who's Razorback?

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

I think it would be really cool to see Rocksteady and Bebop in the comics. Less goofy versions, of course. Not sure what their origin would be like. I've heard that there would be some kind of rights issue that would keep them out of the Mirage comic, though.

Maybe Tokka and Rhazar, then?

[TristanHuwJones]

I think it would be really cool to see Rocksteady and Bebop in the comics. Less goofy versions, of course. Not sure what their origin would be like. I've heard that there would be some kind of rights issue that would keep them out of the Mirage comic, though.

Pitched it, but no dice. I think I posted the pitch on my blog about a month ago...

Pardon my ignorance... who's Razorback?

Go grab Tales of the TMNT #50, he'll also be in #61.

[CyberCubed]

The day Peter Laird ever lets Rocksteady/Bebop into Mirage continuity is the day hell freezes over.

[TristanHuwJones]

But honestly, would you really want them in there? I mean, really, really want them there. You could make them work for maybe one or two stories without them becoming repetitious in their antics. Chances are that once they were introduced, they'd be under more fan scrutiny than any other character. I did say that Peter was open to the idea. Cudley worked in the C.O.W.Boys crossover, but I can't think of too many more stories you can use him in without just retreading over the Archie material or making the stories straight-up bizarre. Admittedly, this is just my opinion based on the stories I've been thinking about.

[Andrew NDB]

I think Cudley could work in a Renet capacity. Sort of this thing that transcends dimensions and can meet multiple versions of the Turtles.

The day Peter Laird ever lets Rocksteady/Bebop into Mirage continuity is the day hell freezes over.

Thank god.

[CyberCubed]

But honestly, would you really want them in there? I mean, really, really want them there. You could make them work for maybe one or two stories without them becoming repetitious in their antics. Chances are that once they were introduced, they'd be under more fan scrutiny than any other character. I did say that Peter was open to the idea. Cudley worked in the C.O.W.Boys crossover, but I can't think of too many more stories you can use him in without just retreading over the Archie material or making the stories straight-up bizarre. Admittedly, this is just my opinion based on the stories I've been thinking about.

I'd really only want them in there if it was some Mirage meet Archie/Old toon kind of thing.

Part of Bebop/Rocksteady's charm was their stupidity, I could never see them fitting in the Mirage universe, even if they were different.

I haven't been following, is Bishop going to appear in Tales?

[turkishproverb]

I was always surprised somethign like Slash never appeared in mirage. Given the turtles parody origins, I figured a parody evil twin thing woudl be obvious.

[Dragon Turtle]

Razorback is still something of an enigma, but I do have a big backstory that will be hinted at on the last page of #61. In my mind, it ties into why you don't see any superheroes in a world you know they exist in. But that's something for later (if things go well this year).

The Mangled Elite is more of a cameo at the moment, but when you see where he is placed and think about the situation it puts a new slant on certain characters and a big question mark over the intentions of others.


I was wondering if their was some significance to Razorback's armor, he always struck me visually as a traditional superhero comic book character.



But honestly, would you really want them in there? I mean, really, really want them there.

Does Mirage own the rights to use Bebop and Rocksteady, the whole rights to various elements of the old cartoon are pretty complicated, with Fred Wolf Films selling pieces of it off left and right.

Conceptually, I don't see anything wrong with Bebop and Rocksteady, any character can become repetitive if their characters aren't developed from their initial appearences, a big reason why I don't particularly care for most arch villains in mainstream comics who are, for the most part, fairly one dimensional.

I always saw Bebop and Rocksteady as possible products of a Doctor Moreau type villain or an evil corporation out to create disposable yet powerful mutant soldiers. Personality wise they could go through the same shift between old toon and Mirage as did the Shredder.

[Cipher]

I mean, really, really want them there. You could make them work for maybe one or two stories without them becoming repetitious in their antics.Who says they'd have to have "antics"?

As a one issue homage, or infrequetly returning characters, I think Bebop and Rocksteady could work. They're violent thugs with super human abilities. That's potentially scary sh*t. Maybe they could be some sort of mutant hitmen created by one of the Turtles' enemies. I like Dragon Turtle's experimental mutant soldier idea too. What if an agency (Razorback?) got ahold of the Turtles' DNA and used it to create them and send them out on tests? There's plenty you could do with those two.

I wouldn't want them becoming main characters or anything, but a one-off appearence by a retooled Bebop and Rocksteady could be, well, fun.

[Andrew NDB]

Does Mirage own the rights to use Bebop and Rocksteady, the whole rights to various elements of the old cartoon are pretty complicated, with Fred Wolf Films selling pieces of it off left and right.

It's been well-documented that Laird has said that Bebop, Rocksteady, and all of the Fred Wolf camp characters could be used to his whim. He just doesn't want to.

On this, I 200% support him.

Conceptually, I don't see anything wrong with Bebop and Rocksteady, any character can become repetitive if their characters aren't developed from their initial appearences, a big reason why I don't particularly care for most arch villains in mainstream comics who are, for the most part, fairly one dimensional.

I always saw Bebop and Rocksteady as possible products of a Doctor Moreau type villain or an evil corporation out to create disposable yet powerful mutant soldiers. Personality wise they could go through the same shift between old toon and Mirage as did the Shredder.

Not a bad take on the characters, but it's not the Mirage Comics' duty to somehow redeem the characters. Better just to make new, better characters from the ground up.

I was always surprised somethign like Slash never appeared in mirage. Given the turtles parody origins, I figured a parody evil twin thing woudl be obvious.

I don't agree with the "parody" aspect to TMNT (homages and nods to Daredevil and Frank Miller's Ronin do not a parody make, even if the titular characters have an over-the-top title... their origin isn't any weirder than many existing superheroes at the time) but I will say at the same time... of all the spinoff children's characters that spawned via the cartoons and Archie comics and such... I think I'd be very OK with a revisionist take on Slash at Mirage.

[TristanHuwJones]

Who says they'd have to have "antics"?

I just meant whatever they do within their characters and stories.

As a one issue homage, or infrequetly returning characters, I think Bebop and Rocksteady could work.

That's what I meant as well. You could only do so many stories with those characters before they became repetitious, so they'd have to be infrequent characters.

They're violent thugs with super human abilities. That's potentially scary sh*t. Maybe they could be some sort of mutant hitmen created by one of the Turtles' enemies. I like Dragon Turtle's experimental mutant soldier idea too. What if an agency (Razorback?) got ahold of the Turtles' DNA and used it to create them and send them out on tests? There's plenty you could do with those two.

My initial idea was that they were extra-dimensional criminals who accidentally crash into our dimension thanks to the Foot Clan's meddling with supernatural forces. A mystic is trying to summon some sort of para-natural being and ends up opening a hole to Bebop and Rocksteady's dimension, who, at that moment, are in a high speed pursuit with that dimension's authorities. They literally come crashing into our world. To make matters worse, they're about two to three stories tall. Anyway, all sorts of **** happens, lots of poking fun at the OT, and Don and Karai's Foot try to work together to send them back to their own dimension (first using the incantation the mystic used, then modifying Leatherhead's transmat) with Renet showing up and Splinter ultimately sending them somewhere using his own mysticism.

That was just one of the ideas I had, but I thought that one would leave things open for a potential return and was also the most fun out of the others.

I think Cudley could work in a Renet capacity. Sort of this thing that transcends dimensions and can meet multiple versions of the Turtles.

But what would you prefer, Renet, or Cudley? It'd be like seeing Renet in Archie -- cool, but they had Cudley.

I haven't been following, is Bishop going to appear in Tales?

Mmmmaybe...

I was wondering if their was some significance to Razorback's armor, he always struck me visually as a traditional superhero comic book character.

When I wrote him, the main inspirations for me were Ninja and Solid Snake from the Metal Gear series, and the Interrogator from GI JOE (I think Cobra had some of the coolest looking villain designs around). You're on the money though, as I did want him to be one of those traditional comic book villains, kinda like Boba Fett in Empire, or Facade in Paul Dini's first Detective Comic. Initially they were more tech based visually, but then they became more like the Hydra-esque dudes we see now. They've undergone upgrades since though (you can check out Andres' designs on both our blogs). I think Paul is going to be drawing them in a slightly transitional fashion in #59.

Wait until you see Razorback in #61 though!


Does Mirage own the rights to use Bebop and Rocksteady, the whole rights to various elements of the old cartoon are pretty complicated, with Fred Wolf Films selling pieces of it off left and right.

I'm pretty sure they got them back a couple of years ago in preparation for the anniversary.


Conceptually, I don't see anything wrong with Bebop and Rocksteady, any character can become repetitive if their characters aren't developed from their initial appearences, a big reason why I don't particularly care for most arch villains in mainstream comics who are, for the most part, fairly one dimensional.

This is true, but I think the nature of the characters (depending on how you introduce them) limits them somewhat. The TMNT universe (Mirage) is fairly grounded in its own hyper-reality. Unless you introduced them post-volume 4, it'd be harder to really push their interactions with the Turtles and the outside world of Earth when most of the freak villains are still relatively human in nature. The Turtles are the only true freaks that are limited by their appearances and nature in general. People complained that they lost something when they could walk around freely in Volume 4, it'd be the same with Bebop and Rocksteady -- until you had a world where they could interact without everyone freaking out at the mere sight of them, you would be similarly limited in the stories you could tell with them.

I'm not saying that the number of stories are small, but they are limited.

Not a bad take on the characters, but it's not the Mirage Comics' duty to somehow redeem the characters. Better just to make new, better characters from the ground up.

I agree... with some exceptions, of course :P

[Andrew NDB]

But what would you prefer, Renet, or Cudley? It'd be like seeing Renet in Archie -- cool, but they had Cudley.

Honestly, probably Cudley. Renet has never really been established as someone that hops across dimensions, but rather just different points in time. Cudley demonstrated the ability to hop dimensions in the Archie books... it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that one dimension might be the Archie TMNT, and one might be the Mirage TMNT. I'm OK with that, and I think the bridger is cool (and doesn't necessitate a ton of baggage or continuity or anything... he's just a travelin' cow head). If I were to write a Mirage TMNT meets Archie TMNT story, he'd be a must.

I agree... with some exceptions, of course :P

Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna read your Hun story with an open mind. If it seems lame or abitrary you know I'm gonna spank you, though, just the same... :)

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

Bebop and Rocksteady could work very well in Mirage, actually. Tristan Jones offered this pitch as the story to the "Free Comic Book Day" issue of TMNT:

We open in another dimension (Caption: NOT Dimension X…), where the two massive brutes are being pursued by authorities in an intense car/other-dimensional-vehicle chase! Suddenly, a vortex starts opening in midair just ahead of them…

Cut to our world, where a Foot Mystic and a band of renegade Foot ninjas are trying to open up a portal to the Netherworld (to summon a demon to help them against the Turtles). Unfortunately, the mystic has misinterpreted one of the symbols in the spell used to open the portal correctly. A portal opens, but when the vehicle Bebop and Rocksteady had hi-jacked comes thundering out and pastes the mystic, it becomes very clear that it’s not the right one!

The rest of the Foot renegades scatter and Bebop and Rocksteady check out this strange new world they’ve stumbled into. They are massive too, at least twice the size of Leatherhead. A registered, costumed superhero flies down to try and stop the duo, but they pulverize him (in a comically brutal way, not to death, but there’s no way a normal human would be able to take it).

Cut to the Turtles’ lair, where Raph, Don and Mike are watching late night television (Leo is reading something). A sudden live news broadcast interrupts and reveals that Bebop and Rocksteady are tearing up midtown as police try and take them down.

After getting a call from April (who’s been caught in the midst of the carnage), they spring into action (they would be disguised somehow, either in gear similar to #36, or civilian clothing – long coats, etc.).

They pluck April out of the danger zone and get her to safety without being noticed, everyone seems too freaked out by the massive duo to care.
Mike notices that Karai and a band of her best warriors are on a nearby rooftop. They join her to try and find out what’s going on, and Karai reveals that a rogue mystic had recently stolen a tome from their archives containing spells/rituals that could supposedly open pathways to parallel dimensions. However, without the book they have no idea what spell/ritual was used, or how to send the two creatures back to where they came from. Don and Karai discuss their options and agree to try and come up with something together, but it means that Mike, Leo and Raph, along with the Foot warriors, will have to try and keep the dimension-hopping duo occupied.

As Mike, Leo and Raph fight Rocksteady and Bebop (taking a number of jabs at the old cartoon along the way), Karai and Don manage to put together a trans-dimensional portal using Leatherhead’s makeshift transmat device and various other bits and pieces Don has accumulated over the years. By channelling the mystic energies of a similar spell through the device, they are able to open a wormhole to another dimension (though not necessarily the one they came from).

The group lures Rocksteady and Bebop to the area above Leatherhead’s old lair (where the portal will open), but the two brutes realise they’re being herded towards a trap and start playing dirty. Don and Karai can only keep the portal open for a small amount of time, and with the brutes wise to the trap, the portal overloads the device that opened it.

At a loss for what to do, Mike suggests they call Renet, but none have any idea how to do that – considering she’s just appeared every time they’ve needed her. However, true to form, she does appear, having sensed a disturbingly large tremor in the space-time continuum. The guys fill her in, and Renet floats up towards Bebop and Rocksteady. She begins channeling her energies, chanting (similar to good ol’ Doctor Strange), but suddenly – WHAM! One of the monsters punches her into a building, sending the sceptre scattering off into an alley.

Don rushes to her aide while Raph, Leo, Mike and the Foot launch another assault on the pair. When it looks as though all is lost, Splinter suddenly arrives on the scene, standing quietly between the battle-weary warriors and the battle-ready monsters. The Turtles freak out, thinking Splinter has finally gone insane, and Bebop and Rocksteady find the situation hilarious. But Splinter has Renet’s sceptre!

Splinter mumbles something and suddenly the two are sucked into the sceptre itself!

With the city saved, Don returns with Renet. Karai tells them that she will help provide the funds to repair the damages caused in the chaos. (If you like the alternate ending, Mike could ask where Splinter sent them).

The turtles return home with their master, exhausted.

ALTERNATE ENDING (one final jab at the old cartoon):
We cut to find that Rocksteady and Bebop have been transported to a dusty, arid dimension, somewhat similar to the surface of Mars. They have been secured by hi-tech restraints and are being marched towards a gigantic construct by hulking soldiers who look similar to The Thing. They stop at the base of the construct, just in front of what appears to be large boarding ramp. “New prisoners for you my lord! We found them inside the forbidden zone.”
Bebop and Rocksteady look up, and we see a grotesquely obese Utrom, sitting in the torso cavity of a massive exosuit (think Obediah Stane’s “Iron Monger” suit compared to Tony Stark’s Iron Man suit). The Utrom grins: “Excellent!”

We zoom out for the final panel, revealing that the construct is disturbingly similar to a certain subterranean construct made famous by the old TMNT cartoons..

I think that would have made for an amazing issue... but unfortunately, it was turned down. So instead of that, we're just getting another reprint of TMNT Vol.1 #1.

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

Ha, and I just realized that Tristan Jones was right here in the thread. Maybe I should read every single post first before offering my own comment, rather than just skim through everything. :lol:

Well, I certainly have egg on my face. :P

[Andrew NDB]

Bebop and Rocksteady could work very well in Mirage, actually. Tristan Jones offered this pitch as the story to the "Free Comic Book Day" issue of TMNT:



I think that would have made for an amazing issue... but unfortunately, it was turned down. So instead of that, we're just getting another reprint of TMNT Vol.1 #1.

Hm... well, having read that now, actually -- literally -- having the Bebop and Rocksteady of yore cross dimensions and enter the Mirage universe/dimension for a minute/for a story, that might be entertaining. That might be fun.

It's just the idea of, actually creating a Mirage version of Bebop and Rocksteady and shoe-horning them into things... (arbitrarily, just out of some kind of nostalgia for the old cartoon by TPTB) that would make me think about burning my collection.

[TristanHuwJones]

If it seems lame or abitrary you know I'm gonna spank you, though, just the same... :)

Can you spank me anyway?;)

[TristanHuwJones]

Hm... well, having read that now, actually -- literally -- having the Bebop and Rocksteady of yore cross dimensions and enter the Mirage universe/dimension for a minute/for a story, that might be entertaining. That might be fun.

It's just the idea of, actually creating a Mirage version of Bebop and Rocksteady and shoe-horning them into things... (arbitrarily, just out of some kind of nostalgia for the old cartoon by TPTB) that would make me think about burning my collection.

Yeah, I totally see where you're coming from. The intention was that it would be a one-shot that people could either leave or take, and the two characters would simply appear for the anniversary and be banished back to another dimension. It was simply an Avengers style bit of fun that would neither affect nor detract from already established continuity. As much as I hate the word, it'd be a filler. It wouldn't progress anything, simply be a one off bit of fun -- hence it being pitched for the anniversary year.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I think it would be really cool to see Rocksteady and Bebop in the comics. Less goofy versions, of course. Not sure what their origin would be like. I've heard that there would be some kind of rights issue that would keep them out of the Mirage comic, though.

Maybe Tokka and Rhazar, then?

Tokka and Rhazar are goofy. Let Bebop and Rocksteady rock instead.

[Coola Yagami]

Hm... well, having read that now, actually -- literally -- having the Bebop and Rocksteady of yore cross dimensions and enter the Mirage universe/dimension for a minute/for a story, that might be entertaining. That might be fun.

It's just the idea of, actually creating a Mirage version of Bebop and Rocksteady and shoe-horning them into things... (arbitrarily, just out of some kind of nostalgia for the old cartoon by TPTB) that would make me think about burning my collection.

But isn't Hun also 'a Mirage version of Hun being shoe-horned' in there instead of making some new big guy from the ground up?

[VaughnMichael]

I say who cares if they want to bring things into the comic as long as it's for fun and isn't going to screw things up.
I'd def. rather see the Archie versions of Bebop & Rocksteady though than say the cartoon ones, or hell make them dif. all together.

[CyberCubed]

Cody Jones should appear in Mirage with the future Turtles, like with old Leo, old Raph, that we've seen in the other issues.

[Andrew NDB]

But isn't Hun also 'a Mirage version of Hun being shoe-horned' in there instead of making some new big guy from the ground up?

Yeah, he is. Jury's out on this one.

This man may need to be dispatched after Tristan:

http://www.toadking.com/6x9=42/paddlin.jpg

[Andrew NDB]

Cody Jones should appear in Mirage with the future Turtles, like with old Leo, old Raph, that we've seen in the other issues.

You think Mirage should tie into the Fast Forward stuff? F*** no.

[TristanHuwJones]

All I'm going to say about Hun is this: the Mirage Hun is no different to the Copperhead character he was originally pitched as for this story. The only difference is the slight physical variation and the fact that he leads the Purple Dragons instead of the Pit Vipers. His place in the story that I hope will unfold is exactly the same.

Regarding Cody Jones: I think there are better things one could do with the Jones lineage. Although I think a character like Sho K'anabo could fit into the Mirage books quite easily, same with the Street Phantoms and Torbin Zixx. Of course, there are probably better things you could do than make those characters work too...

[Cipher]

On "new characters vs new versions of characters":

I can't really say I have a preference. But if you're going to use a character very similar to a pre-existing one from a different version, I say you might as well go for an adaption. The end result should be the same, but it gets the cool homage factor as well.

Let's say you want an issue to have a spooky alien monster which plays itself dangerously close to Sh'Okanabo. It's easier to get excited about a new version of Sh'Okanabo than what might be a one-off monster who fades into obscurity.

Likewise, if the cartoon had an episode about a supervillain who could move through concrete, I think we'd all say "What the hell? Why didn't they just use Complete Carnage? It would be awesome to see him in the cartoon."

There's just a certain kick people get from seeing an existing character put into a new situation or shown in a new light, and there's nothing wrong with catering to that.

[CyberCubed]

You think Mirage should tie into the Fast Forward stuff? F*** no.

So are you saying Shadow never had any kids or grandkids? The Mirage Cody Jones doesn't have to be anything like the cartoon one, just showing that the Casey Jones family continues.

It would also be nice to see if old Leo etc. still keep in touch with April/Casey's children/grandchildren.

[Dragon Turtle]

Honestly, probably Cudley. Renet has never really been established as someone that hops across dimensions, but rather just different points in time.


Yeah, I much more comfortable with dimension hoping then time travel, far fewer continuity headaches.




It's just the idea of, actually creating a Mirage version of Bebop and Rocksteady and shoe-horning them into things... (arbitrarily, just out of some kind of nostalgia for the old cartoon by TPTB) that would make me think about burning my collection.


I think it might be a bit much to say that introducing certain characters into the books would be "shoe-horning" them in, ultimately the decision to bring in any external preexisting character would be Peter Laird's, who has never really made any arbitrary decisions to placate cartoon fans. Hun's (and possibly Bishop) introduction is less about making fans of the 2k3 toon happy, but more about telling an interesting story that fits into the Mirage universe, with a character he likes.



All I'm going to say about Hun is this: the Mirage Hun is no different to the Copperhead character he was originally pitched as for this story. The only difference is the slight physical variation and the fact that he leads the Purple Dragons instead of the Pit Vipers. His place in the story that I hope will unfold is exactly the same.


The Mirage universe needed a character like Hun (not necessarily Hun himself), someone to put a face on the criminal underworld, a character that could be used to advance Casey Jones's character, and you even have that slight parody aspect with Dare Devil, Hun always reminded me of Kingpin.

[Andrew NDB]

So are you saying Shadow never had any kids or grandkids?

No. I'm saying that in scribing the future of the TMNT characters, whatever 4Kids/Fast Forward showed shouldn't be so much as be given even a momentary passing consideration.

It's a spinoff. For little kids. To sell toys.

Looking to spinoff fluff for children to try and mine stuff into the core Mirage material just seems pretty creatively bankrupt in principle (and I'm not talking about potential crossover stuff, like Tristan's Bebop & Rocksteady pitch... which I certainly wouldn't love to see, but could tolerate and maybe have a bit of fun with)... or at least that TPTB at Mirage have run out of ideas.

[Cipher]

Looking to spinoff fluff for children to try and mine stuff into the core Mirage material just seems pretty creatively bankrupt in principle (and I'm not talking about potential crossover stuff, like Tristan's Bebop & Rocksteady pitch... which I certainly wouldn't love to see, but could tolerate and maybe have a bit of fun with)... or at least that TPTB at Mirage have run out of ideas.How did you feel, pray tell, about the introduction of the Battle Nexus in Volume 4?

[Andrew NDB]

How did you feel, pray tell, about the introduction of the Battle Nexus in Volume 4?

Since that's a story in progress it's difficult to judge, isn't it?

[Lord Nightwalker]

With Ninja Turtles, all most anything can, and if written well, will work.
If the tone of the subject matter and Good charachterization are in play, correctly, The impossible is possible.
Just leave the "over the top" campy elements at the front door, I hate the "Jack Ass" mentality of comedy.
Tmnt... Heavy Action adventure horror Scifi Martial Arts Drama.
With a smidgeon of comedy.
*smiles*

*No Soap Opera crap allowed eighter....*

That said, I'm realy looking forward to reading the up coming issues of Tales and TMNT V.4 Looks like some realy cool stuff is heading our way.

[Dragon Turtle]

No. I'm saying that in scribing the future of the TMNT characters, whatever 4Kids/Fast Forward showed shouldn't be so much as be given even a momentary passing consideration.

It's a spinoff. For little kids. To sell toys.

Looking to spinoff fluff for children to try and mine stuff into the core Mirage material just seems pretty creatively bankrupt in principle (and I'm not talking about potential crossover stuff, like Tristan's Bebop & Rocksteady pitch... which I certainly wouldn't love to see, but could tolerate and maybe have a bit of fun with)... or at least that TPTB at Mirage have run out of ideas.

Not that I'm advocating introducing more and more elements of the cartoon series into the Mirage comics, but in the case of the 2k3 cartoon in particular, Peter Laird had alot of creative input in the series, both in direction and design, so it wouldn't be too out of the ordinary for Laird to want to use some of the ideas he had worked on for the show in the Mirage comics, the Battle Nexus for example being one of them.

As for Fast Forward, I actually wouldn't mind if the Dark Turtles showed up as a sort of darker mirror image of the turtles, they may actually work better then Slash at representing the dark side of each individual turtle.

Dark Leo could represent Leo's obsession at perfecting his skills taken to extremes, a sort of Akuma to Leo's Ryu (Street Fighter reference).

Dark Don could be a "Faust" type mad scientist with no morals or ethics, twisting science for his own curiosity.

Dark Mike could be a Heath Ledger/Dark Knight Joker-esque psychopath.

Dark Raph could possibly be an out of control Doomsday/Hulk engine of destruction.

They could probably come from a parallel dimension, like the Earth-2 Crime Syndicate of Amerika.

[Andrew NDB]

Not that I'm advocating introducing more and more elements of the cartoon series into the Mirage comics, but in the case of the 2k3 cartoon in particular, Peter Laird had alot of creative input in the series, both in direction and design, so it wouldn't be too out of the ordinary for Laird to want to use some of the ideas he had worked on for the show in the Mirage comics, the Battle Nexus for example being one of them.

Yeah. I'm not sure the level of Laird's involvement in the creation of the Battle Nexus... if it was pretty high, and the Battle Nexus truly is his baby I have a fairly minimal problem with it pending the story's conclusion (it's not my fault we've only gotten like 2 issues in 3 years). Similarly to why I only have my torch ready for Tristan's Miragizing of Hun... but haven't lit it yet. :)

As for Fast Forward, I actually wouldn't mind if the Dark Turtles showed up as a sort of darker mirror image of the turtles, they may actually work better then Slash at representing the dark side of each individual turtle.

"Dark Turtles" isn't exactly a Fast Forward-exclusive idea (or an exclusive idea at all... even things like Star Trek have evil, mirror universe-type characters of the leads) so I don't think that'd be a big deal. As long as it's just the idea, and not like the whole shebang is noticeably uprooted and transplanted in Mirage only with peripheral changes... that's just vapid and displays a pretty flimsy deck of creative cards.

They could probably come from a parallel dimension, like the Earth-2 Crime Syndicate of Amerika.

Ah, the Grant Morrison special. A good one. "Earth-2" was actually just the Anti-Matter Universe in that, and actually there's a similar but less-cool "Crime Society of America" on Earth-3 now.

[Coola Yagami]

Andrew brings a good point... The Dark Turtles wouldn't even have to look like the FF versions at all. Hell, those guys hardly even looked like Turtles at all. And the fact that Sh'Okanabo made them would probably be taken out. Either that or make a Slash, that most likely wouldn't have to be called Slash either.

[Ninjafromanotherseries]

Dark Don could be a "Faust" type mad scientist with no morals or ethics, twisting science for his own curiosity.




Just like X-men character Dark Beast.

[Andrew NDB]

Andrew brings a good point... The Dark Turtles wouldn't even have to look like the FF versions at all. Hell, those guys hardly even looked like Turtles at all. And the fact that Sh'Okanabo made them would probably be taken out. Either that or make a Slash, that most likely wouldn't have to be called Slash either.

Slash is pretty easy to reimagine. Some new villain in Vol. 4, perhaps a rogue Utrom, had a pet project... using a new mutagen to hyper-evolve an alligator snapping turtle instead of a red-earred slider.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I'd really only want them in there if it was some Mirage meet Archie/Old toon kind of thing.

Part of Bebop/Rocksteady's charm was their stupidity, I could never see them fitting in the Mirage universe, even if they were different.

I haven't been following, is Bishop going to appear in Tales?

No. Watch the first two seasons to see more of their cool side.

[Cipher]

Slash is pretty easy to reimagine. Some new villain in Vol. 4, perhaps a rogue Utrom, had a pet project... using a new mutagen to hyper-evolve an alligator snapping turtle instead of a red-earred slider.So why wouldn't this work if you replace 'Slash' with 'Rocksteady and Bebop'?

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

So why wouldn't this work if you replace 'Slash' with 'Rocksteady and Bebop'?

Slash would rock!

[Vegita-San]

Andrew brings a good point... The Dark Turtles wouldn't even have to look like the FF versions at all. Hell, those guys hardly even looked like Turtles at all. And the fact that Sh'Okanabo made them would probably be taken out. Either that or make a Slash, that most likely wouldn't have to be called Slash either.

Didn't even think about that. THe dark turtles could provide an interesting nemesis for each character. Especially if they didn't share the same personality traits as their counterpart. For instance, just to through the turtles off guard, Dark Leo could have Mikey's Personality but Leo's skills....etc..

[Andrew NDB]

So why wouldn't this work if you replace 'Slash' with 'Rocksteady and Bebop'?

Because Bebop and Rocksteady are synonymous with camp and empty-headed childish humor and otherwise the antithesis of the core of the Mirage universe. They're the poster childs for the least-endearing aspects of the Fred Wolf material.

Slash is kind of a niche character, not really well known, and though I don't remember him very well in the cartoon, seemed pretty hardcore even in the Archie Comics.

And I'm not so much suggesting Slash should literally be adapted into Mirage as I am a Slash-like character -- it doesn't even need to be called "Slash." Just a twisted, evil, bloodthirsty killing machine of a Mutant Turtle that could take on even several of the TMNT at once.

[turkishproverb]

And I'm not so much suggesting Slash should literally be adapted into Mirage as I am a Slash-like character -- it doesn't even need to be called "Slash." Just a twisted, evil, bloodthirsty killing machine of a Mutant Turtle that could take on even several of the TMNT at once.

So...Raph?

[Andrew NDB]

And I'm not so much suggesting Slash should literally be adapted into Mirage as I am a Slash-like character -- it doesn't even need to be called "Slash." Just a twisted, evil, bloodthirsty killing machine of a Mutant Turtle that could take on even several of the TMNT at once.

So...Raph?

If you have a parallel universe where Raph is a "twisted, evil, bloodthirsty killing machine."

[turkishproverb]

If you have a parallel universe where Raph is a "twisted, evil, bloodthirsty killing machine."

2 out of 3 aint bad.

[Andrew NDB]

2 out of 3 aint bad.

I wouldn't call Raphael a "killing machine."

The rest don't apply. Even in a book like Body Count.

[Dragon Turtle]

Initially they were more tech based visually, but then they became more like the Hydra-esque dudes we see now. They've undergone upgrades since though (you can check out Andres' designs on both our blogs). I think Paul is going to be drawing them in a slightly transitional fashion in #59.


I was wondering if Razorback's organization has a name, I thought it would be cool to see them or some other organization given a parody name similar to the Foot Clan.


Andrew brings a good point... The Dark Turtles wouldn't even have to look like the FF versions at all. Hell, those guys hardly even looked like Turtles at all. And the fact that Sh'Okanabo made them would probably be taken out. Either that or make a Slash, that most likely wouldn't have to be called Slash either.

I actually like Adrian Barrios's designs (especially Dark Raph's Ankylosaurus inspired design), much more visually interesting then just having them be exact duplicates, unless they were given evil mirrior universe goatees.:)


I wouldn't call Raphael a "killing machine."

The rest don't apply. Even in a book like Body Count.

Yeah Raph isn't a "twisted, evil, bloodthirsty killing machine", just an angry rebellious loner with a penchant for homicidal outbursts... .J/K:P (seriously, get help Raph)

[TristanHuwJones]

I was wondering if Razorback's organization has a name, I thought it would be cool to see them or some other organization given a parody name similar to the Foot Clan.


Razorback's little group of men (The Razorbacks) are a selection of mercenaries working directly under him. He was involved with another group, but I don't want to say too much about that. I've dropped a few hints already, all I can say is this: just wait until you see the last page of #61 ;)

[deathtojohnny]

I came up with a short story about Slash being the fifth turtle that was discarded by Splinter for being malicious and deformed. From the sub-sewers, Slash grew up watching the other turtles with envy and copied their training and attire (bandanas and belts).

Finally, after 16 years, Slash confronted his "brothers" and Splinter. At first the turtles grow embittered with Splinter for not telling them about Slash and feeling like any one of them could've been the turtle casted out, but Slash eventually reveals his true colors and fights the turtles.

(Let me know what y'all think, and I could post it if you'd like.)

[CyberCubed]

Both Slash and Armaggon would be the ideal two mutants to bring into Mirage continuity over the others.

An evil-killing turtle and a mutant Shark mutant would be great.

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

However, Armaggon would kind of feel like they were simply redoing Shark-clone Shredder. Unless they brought back Shark-clone Shredder and started developing him into becoming Armaggon (or at least a similar character).

[Andrew NDB]

However, Armaggon would kind of feel like they were simply redoing Shark-clone Shredder.

Or Mako from Vol. 3.

Though if you want to see a Mirage TMNT killing a Shark creature, look no further than here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCHzkbxawvI&fmt=18

[Dragon Turtle]

I came up with a short story about Slash being the fifth turtle that was discarded by Splinter for being malicious and deformed. From the sub-sewers, Slash grew up watching the other turtles with envy and copied their training and attire (bandanas and belts).

Finally, after 16 years, Slash confronted his "brothers" and Splinter. At first the turtles grow embittered with Splinter for not telling them about Slash and feeling like any one of them could've been the turtle casted out, but Slash eventually reveals his true colors and fights the turtles.

(Let me know what y'all think, and I could post it if you'd like.)


That would be an interesting take on Splinter, a good villain adds another perspective to the protagonist's character.


Both Slash and Armaggon would be the ideal two mutants to bring into Mirage continuity over the others.

An evil-killing turtle and a mutant Shark mutant would be great.

If they were going to keep the "future shark" angle of Armaggon's character it would be interesting to see them tie him to Savanti Romero and/or Chote.

[turkishproverb]

I came up with a short story about Slash being the fifth turtle that was discarded by Splinter for being malicious and deformed. From the sub-sewers, Slash grew up watching the other turtles with envy and copied their training and attire (bandanas and belts).

Finally, after 16 years, Slash confronted his "brothers" and Splinter. At first the turtles grow embittered with Splinter for not telling them about Slash and feeling like any one of them could've been the turtle casted out, but Slash eventually reveals his true colors and fights the turtles.

(Let me know what y'all think, and I could post it if you'd like.)

Hmm... might want 2 versions of the story, one showing that splinter, while somewhat at fault, wasn't being as bad as Slash says (His poor broken mind would have embellished) but otherwise I love it.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I came up with a short story about Slash being the fifth turtle that was discarded by Splinter for being malicious and deformed. From the sub-sewers, Slash grew up watching the other turtles with envy and copied their training and attire (bandanas and belts).

Finally, after 16 years, Slash confronted his "brothers" and Splinter. At first the turtles grow embittered with Splinter for not telling them about Slash and feeling like any one of them could've been the turtle casted out, but Slash eventually reveals his true colors and fights the turtles.

(Let me know what y'all think, and I could post it if you'd like.)

Which TMNT universe?

[deathtojohnny]

Which TMNT universe?

It's ubique, like the 2007 TMNT movie. The timeline is not even specified. It's just a stand-alone story.

The only characters in the story are the Turtles and Splinter, and how they deal with Slash's arrival.

Splinter, guilt-ridden, asks Slash for forgiveness and leaves the lair to be alone to meditate.

Donatello tries to educate Slash, while Leonardo tries to train him.
Michelangelo is a little uneasy around Slash at first, but he starts to come around, while Raphael totally distrusts him.

It isn't until Michelangelo is nearly mauled, that the Turtles realize that Splinter's instincts were right.

If enough of you are interested, I will polish the story a bit (I wrote it years ago) and post it. My yearning to merge universes drove me to write this, I'm glad to see many of you feel the same way.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

If enough of you are interested, I will polish the story a bit (I wrote it years ago) and post it. My yearning to merge universes drove me to write this, I'm glad to see many of you feel the same way.

Sounds cool.

[CyberCubed]

Having re-read Image recently, I think it would be interesting if Pimiko got a debut in the Mirage universe. They should change her design a bit, but I think Oroku Saki having a daughter could provide some interesting storylines.

The Image run got canceled before they could use her to her full potential, I'd like to see her character return.

[Andrew NDB]

And it seemed that Pimiko was going to do a 180 and become a friend rather than foe of the TMNT. There were good things ahead.

[Dragon Turtle]

I really like the "scion of the villain" concept Pimiko represented. I would like to see the daughter of the Shredder introduced into the Mirage universe, maybe as the leader of the Foot Elite. I could see her as an Azula type character, both cunning and strong enough to take on the turtles and Karai.

And maybe even used to advance Splinter's character, by having him try to stop the cycle of violence between the turtles and the Oroku family.


And it seemed that Pimiko was going to do a 180 and become a friend rather than foe of the TMNT. There were good things ahead.


Mirage was on track to do that with the Lady Shredder from Tales of TMNT #22, who was originally suppose to be Tang Shen's sister.

[TristanHuwJones]

Mirage was on track to do that with the Lady Shredder from Tales of TMNT #22, who was originally suppose to be Tang Shen's sister.

If everything goes okay, she'll be back. But with the twist exposed, we may have to shake things up a little more... ;)

[CyberCubed]

Would have also been interesting to see Pimiko and Lady Shredder (Karai) battle it out for ruler of the Foot Clan.

The only problem I can see with Pimiko is she would wind up turning into a Karai redux, a female ninja who was part of the enemy but becomes friends with the Turtles.

Considering Karai is at peace with the Turtles in Volume 4, perhaps Pimiko can be shoe-horned into Tales somewhere after Volume 2, maybe even having a loose continuity with Image.

[Dan]

What about throwing Tatsu or Khan in there?

[CyberCubed]

What about throwing Tatsu or Khan in there?

Tatsu is really no different than an Elite Guard, just without the uniform.

Tatsu was Shredder's second-in-command, it wouldn't surprise me if the idea behind his character was an Elite Guard. We're also pretty sure Khan in the 2k3 universe was also one of the Elite Guards.

[TristanHuwJones]

Considering Karai is at peace with the Turtles in Volume 4, perhaps Pimiko can be shoe-horned into Tales somewhere after Volume 2, maybe even having a loose continuity with Image.

I don't think that she is to be honest. You need to read between the lines. Something is definitely up...

[Coola Yagami]

Since Shredder is gone and Karai lead the Foot.... maybe Khan doesn't want to follow Karai's leadership and forms his own branch of the Foot, ditching his Elite outfit to be his own guy.

[Dragon Turtle]

What about throwing Tatsu or Khan in there?

The Foot Clan could use some more named characters, as is, they suffer a bit from Stormtrooper Syndrome.

I don't think that she is to be honest. You need to read between the lines. Something is definitely up...

She's putting the moves on Casey, shameful!:evil: I wonder if there will ever be any stories exploring Karai's past relationship with her daughter.

[CyberCubed]

The Foot Clan could use some more named characters, as is, they suffer a bit from Stormtrooper Syndrome.

Aside from Cha Ocho, are there any other named Foot Soldiers? The Image series had Cheng who was a Foot Mystic who drained Splinter's lifeforce.

I still figure Tatsu is more or less the same thing as an Elite Guard, just without the mask and armor.

[ToTheNines]

Bebop and Rocksteady could work very well in Mirage, actually. Tristan Jones offered this pitch as the story to the "Free Comic Book Day" issue of TMNT:



I think that would have made for an amazing issue... but unfortunately, it was turned down. So instead of that, we're just getting another reprint of TMNT Vol.1 #1.

Aha, found it.