View Full Version : Why do you think Complete Carnage was never in the cartoons?
CyberCubed
05-28-2009, 12:52 PM
Does anyone find it odd that Complete Carnage is really the only major Mirage villain that was never featured in either the original cartoon or the 2k3 series?
The funny thing is the guy would have fit into either cartoon universe very easily, yet for some reason he was excluded from both. It really is an oddball situation, because the character himself feels rather obscure as a TMNT villain even though it shouldn't be that way.
Archon_Turtle
05-28-2009, 01:00 PM
Does anyone find it odd that Complete Carnage is really the only major Mirage villain that was never featured in either the original cartoon or the 2k3 series?
The funny thing is the guy would have fit into either cartoon universe very easily, yet for some reason he was excluded from both. It really is an oddball situation, because the character himself feels rather obscure as a TMNT villain even though it shouldn't be that way.
While I have no factual basis to this opinion, it wouldn't suprise me if it had something to do with the fact that he is largely based upon Etrigan, a character which Mirage does not own.
Lordmylar06
05-28-2009, 01:14 PM
I think it's because\ the tv would explode for lack of ability to contain such awesomeness. That and he is based on Etrigan, but I think there are enough differences to call him original. Think of similar characters from other companies that get used all the time. Entire cartoon series have been made of parody characters. Justice Friends short cartoon from Dexter's Laboratory for instance.
VaughnMichael
05-28-2009, 01:17 PM
I was thinking perhaps because Kevin Eastman created the character. *shruggs*
But who really knows.
Archon_Turtle
05-28-2009, 01:28 PM
I was thinking perhaps because Kevin Eastman created the character. *shruggs*
But who really knows.
that didn't even occur to me, but you're probably more right than I am.
Cipher
05-28-2009, 05:52 PM
The absense of Complete Carnage and Radical from the 4Kids cartoon always baffled me. For one thing, Complete Carnage rocks my socks. For another thing, why did they make and heavily feature a superhero team without using Radical? Their issues were also pretty kid-friendly (barring "Swan Song") and could easily have translated into an episode.
It's just wierd that every other major Mirage character (featured before Volume 4) made an appearence while those two did not.
While I have no factual basis to this opinion, it wouldn't suprise me if it had something to do with the fact that he is largely based upon Etrigan, a character which Mirage does not own. Doubt it. Complete Carnage as an Etrigan homage is about a thousand times more subtle than "The Green Mantle."
Newton Gimmick
05-28-2009, 08:56 PM
Actually I think the fact that it's basically Etrigan is the only plausible reason.
Eastman sold his Mirage rights, there's no reason why Laird wouldn't use him unless he just doesn't like the character. Eastman has his fingerprints all over so many of the TMNTverse and they're used.
The Green Mantle and other characters were parodies of sorts. Homages. DC probably doesn't have a problem with that. That falls under more grey territory.
Having a character like Carnage however tends to be a bit more likely to fall into infringing rights and likeness and yadda yadda. Bit of a difference between an homage character and a marketable independant character that just happens to share too many qualities with another established character.
Shred Head
05-28-2009, 10:25 PM
Having a character like Carnage however tends to be a bit more likely to fall into infringing rights and likeness and yadda yadda. Bit of a difference between an homage character and a marketable independant character that just happens to share too many qualities with another established character.
I doubt it was a copy right issue since Raptarr got in despite looking completely like Warren Worthington Angel. I dont think there is any kind of hidden consperiacy. I think it was just poor timing they probraly would have gotten to that one sooner or later but maybe even in the 5th season if it got the same amount of episodes seasons 1-4 got. Then the show changed its tone completely after that season and it was no longer doing mirage adaptations.
As for not being in the 80's toon pretty sure they probraly didn't think Radical and Complete Carnage wouldn't be cool enough toys.
Andrew NDB
05-28-2009, 10:30 PM
I'm not sure what Etrigan and Carnage have in common aside from the ears.
Complete Carnage isn't a short, rhyming demon from Hell dressed like a jester. He's a brutish, hulk of a man who isn't even well-spoken who can pass through walls and concrete and sh*t.
Cipher
05-28-2009, 11:08 PM
Complete Carnage isn't a short, rhyming demon from Hell dressed like a jester. He's a brutish, hulk of a man who isn't even well-spoken who can pass through walls and concrete and sh*t.They do share a lot of design elements.
Perhaps it's just a matter of the show being under Peter's creative control and Complete Carnage and Radical just not being characters that immediately appealed to him. Maybe they were always Kevin's thing, and Peter just wanted to see other stories adapted first. Maybe no other writers or story-editors pitched the idea because they weren't encouraged by him. And then, of course, the show's focus changed direction in season five and on.
CyberCubed
05-28-2009, 11:22 PM
It does seem ridiculous though because as you said, they had the Justice Force in the cartoon which Radical should have been a part of...so it doesn't make sense to see her not included.
Didn't she come to Pete's mind at all? It's also jarring how its the only issue of the original Tales not adapted into an episode. So they KNOW they skipped it purposely.
Newton Gimmick
05-29-2009, 02:14 AM
I'm not sure what Etrigan and Carnage have in common aside from the ears.
Complete Carnage isn't a short, rhyming demon from Hell dressed like a jester. He's a brutish, hulk of a man who isn't even well-spoken who can pass through walls and concrete and sh*t.
What pictures of Etrigan are you looking at? They look almost identical.
The ears, the face, the body, the costume (sorta). The only real difference is the horns.
I mean if you don't think he bares more than a passing resemblance to Etrigan then maybe you should check out my new character. Awesome Man!
http://i41.tinypic.com/29mpvdi.jpg
I'm sure DC comics won't mind, because he's nothing like Superman. This guy is taller.
CyberCubed
05-29-2009, 12:34 PM
Weren't there several Batman rip-off's in comics over the years though? Even some that wear almost the same black and gray costume?
Coola Yagami
05-29-2009, 05:25 PM
Nobody was essentially Batman....
Speaking of which, Choate wasn't in the toon either.
Newton Gimmick
05-29-2009, 06:57 PM
Weren't there several Batman rip-off's in comics over the years though? Even some that wear almost the same black and gray costume?
Plenty. You'll find that comics often don't care if other comics rip them off. Especially in this day and age (Although there are exceptions to that) but once you start transporting them to other forms of media, there becomes a problem.
I would say this definitely becomes more the case when you look at how few people have ever read the Mirage comics, versus how many millions more watch the toons. DC would be more likely to step in over a cartoon version, than a comic one. Which I know sounds assbackwards, but is often how it works.
Archon_Turtle
05-29-2009, 09:09 PM
Plenty. You'll find that comics often don't care if other comics rip them off. Especially in this day and age (Although there are exceptions to that) but once you start transporting them to other forms of media, there becomes a problem.
I would say this definitely becomes more the case when you look at how few people have ever read the Mirage comics, versus how many millions more watch the toons. DC would be more likely to step in over a cartoon version, than a comic one. Which I know sounds assbackwards, but is often how it works.
It would simply not be cost effective for them to take action. The cost of bringing a Comic book company to court vs. the amount of money they could most likely get from said company would end up costing them money in the end.
Sage Ninja
06-01-2009, 12:07 AM
who the hell is complete carnage and what his MO?
Blade Raider
06-01-2009, 12:35 AM
Perhaps it's just a matter of the show being under Peter's creative control and Complete Carnage and Radical just not being characters that immediately appealed to him. Maybe they were always Kevin's thing, and Peter just wanted to see other stories adapted first. Maybe no other writers or story-editors pitched the idea because they weren't encouraged by him. And then, of course, the show's focus changed direction in season five and on.
Why wouldn't the parody Peter owns come to mind when he has made such a big deal on his blog about how much he loves Etrigan?
Newton Gimmick
06-01-2009, 02:07 AM
It would simply not be cost effective for them to take action. The cost of bringing a Comic book company to court vs. the amount of money they could most likely get from said company would end up costing them money in the end.
Actually in terms of DC it's not costly at all. They can get a cease and desist easily and they do it all the time to all sorts of stuff. It has nothing to do with them WANTING money, it has to do with them protecting their assets. They get their lawyers involved all the time over stuff like that.
Like I say, they tend to ignore it in actual comics because that generally isn't worth the time, but bringing something into the 4Kids networks, millions of homes, toys, t-shirts, etc, DC would step in a heartbeat. Assuming they thought it infringed on their property.
Andrew NDB
06-01-2009, 02:10 AM
I don't think it's a leap to assume that if TPTB really wanted Complete Carnage in the 4Kids children's stuff then they would've done it... and if that just meant changing his ears, then they would've done that, too.
Simple fact is, either they make a conscious choice not to include him or they just didn't feel like doing a Carnage story.
Newton Gimmick
06-01-2009, 02:21 AM
I'm certain they made a conscious choice not to include him, because they would have had to completely redo the character to the point he was unrecognizable to squeeze him in because DC owns Etrigan.
I think with Laird's love of all things Kirby, he would have absolutely included him if possible because Carnage is so obviously a tribute character.
Probably easier to skip him then have to go back later and omit him from episodes (or pull them) because of legal issues. Which is likely what would have happened.
And although I'm sure some folks will disagree with that, without getting an answer from the powers that be, it's the most plausible reason. Certainly a little more water holding than conspiracy theories.
Scandia
06-01-2009, 04:45 AM
I am just guessing here, but I wonder if the Complete Carnage story was too violent for either cartoon. Though the 2k3 one does have a bit more violence, it is nowhere near up to Mirage level.
I only know a little about CC, but from what I've seen he would have slipped easily into the 2K3 fold. But maybe I'm missing something here, what makes him such a great villain? Is there an essential issue that he stars in?
Cipher
06-01-2009, 04:21 PM
I only know a little about CC, but from what I've seen he would have slipped easily into the 2K3 fold.Of his three major stories, I can only think of one that wouldn't easily work in the 4Kids cartoon.
But maybe I'm missing something here, what makes him such a great villain? Is there an essential issue that he stars in?All of his issues are kind of "essential." If you've only read Tales #5 though, I agree that it's pretty lack luster. #27 and Tales Vol 2 #41 are some of my favorites.
I just think it's cool that the Turtles have at least one super-powerful, damn near unkillable villain. Melding with and drawing power from artificial material makes him far and above the most powerful enemy they've ever had.
Andrew NDB
06-01-2009, 07:13 PM
I'm certain they made a conscious choice not to include him, because they would have had to completely redo the character to the point he was unrecognizable to squeeze him in because DC owns Etrigan.
I think with Laird's love of all things Kirby, he would have absolutely included him if possible because Carnage is so obviously a tribute character.
But did Laird himself actually pitch or write any of the 4Kids cartoons? I don't think he's ever had any say in that... suggestions, notes at best that are either heeded or ignored by the 4Kids team... I don't think he creatively had much more to do with things than that.
Of course, he got to veto anything he didn't like, too.
Newton Gimmick
06-02-2009, 01:25 AM
I don't think he wrote any, but as I understood it he had a lot more creative control and had his thumb more on the pulse of the 4Kids cartoon. I generally felt like he helped lay out the first couple of seasons at least and some of the things he's said in the past while that toon was in it's infancy seemed to indicate that. But again, that's at least partially speculation.
VaughnMichael
06-02-2009, 05:59 AM
I'm still saying it has to do with the fact that Kevin Eastman created him.
I've asked Peter questions about Complete Carnage in his blog when I was working on my custom figure of him and he told me to go ask Kevin about him as he has no idea about the character.
Keldor1578
06-03-2009, 01:36 AM
If season five had 26 episodes like the first four seasons, I think they would had adapted that issue into an episode.The show changed directions in season six.
I'm still saying it has to do with the fact that Kevin Eastman created him. But Kevin created Casey and they use him all the time.
VaughnMichael
06-03-2009, 05:28 AM
But Kevin created Casey and they use him all the time.
Yes but Peter know that character, I don't know the real answer the only person who's gonna give us that would be Peter.
Spitfire
06-03-2009, 12:04 PM
I'm sure it was considered. They did every other tales issue as an episode. It probably had something to do with the format chance happening before they had a chance to use him. They probably didn't want to just randomly toss him in there.
Or as Vaughn said maybe Peter didn't feel he knew the character well enough to bring him to life in animation.
Yes but Peter know that character Why would it matter if Peter knew who he was or not? He doesn't write the scripts for the cartoon.
Coola Yagami
06-03-2009, 10:14 PM
Radical shoulda been shoe-horned in with the Justice Force... After all, they added Nobody, Nano and Green Mantle in there...
VaughnMichael
06-04-2009, 05:19 AM
Why would it matter if Peter knew who he was or not? He doesn't write the scripts for the cartoon.
Not knows as in knows who he is, knows as in understands who the character is.
Or perhaps he just doesn't have an interest in him.
Keldor1578
06-05-2009, 01:11 AM
I still think they probably would had use him if the show did'nt change format after season five.
I find it odd that that was the only Tales comic not to be adapted. And how could Peter not understand the character seeing how he helped write the story?
VaughnMichael
06-05-2009, 11:34 AM
I find it odd that that was the only Tales comic not to be adapted. And how could Peter not understand the character seeing how he helped write the story?
how about we stop guessing and go ask him on his blog hmmm?
BigApple3AM
06-07-2009, 01:34 AM
This is a great question, and it's the perfect time to ask Pete as he's doing a question/answer on his blog right now. I didn't want to step on any toes and ask for you guys, but hurry up and ask because you've got me intrigued!
Candy Kappa
06-07-2009, 05:03 AM
how about we stop guessing and go ask him on his blog hmmm?
don't throw logic in here:lol:
VaughnMichael
06-07-2009, 05:38 AM
don't throw logic in here:lol:
I asked him just now on his blog, so I hope he has a good answer for us.
CyberCubed
06-07-2009, 10:26 AM
Pete responded to Vaughn's question:
I should probably ask Lloyd Goldfine about this, although I did a search of my email correspondence with him and came up with zero references to either Complete Carnage or Radical. I don't remember discussing using one or both of them in the 2K3 show... and it probably has much to do with the fact that I never really thought either character was terribly interesting. -- PL
There you have it. Peter doesn't like the character.
Cipher
06-07-2009, 02:01 PM
More or less what Vaughn, I, and some others suggested.
What a waste, though. Those characters have so much untapped potential. The concept behind Complete Carnage in particular is great, if only he had more than three stories to his name.
Ninjinister
06-07-2009, 02:32 PM
What a waste, though. Those characters have so much untapped potential. The concept behind Complete Carnage in particular is great, if only he had more than three stories to his name.
Thank God he's got four, then. Well, six if you count the Complete Carnage clone... which I don't.
Cipher
06-07-2009, 02:34 PM
Thank God he's got four, then. Well, six if you count the Complete Carnage clone... which I don't.Well, one's a short. And, no, I wasn't counting his purple-tastic appearence in the Savage Dragon crossover.
CyberCubed
06-07-2009, 03:36 PM
I'm surprised Peter greenlit Murphy's Tales story about Leo/Radical being a couple, and both Radical and Carnage dying in the future then.
Well, maybe he greenlit that story so both Radical and Carnage would die.
That whole romance between Leo/Radical was terrible and tacked-on, I don't know what Murphy was thinking.
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