Michaelangelo and Raphael

[Sage Ninja]

I've always been a big fan of Michaelangelo and Raphael's brotherly relationship. I've liked how they play off each other and how, even in the early days of the comics where depicted as being best friends. Even though my exposure to the orginal comics is small, I think it was nice that thir relationship is hinted at as being therapeutic and calming to Raphael and being the thing that kept him from going berserk (before he met Casey Jones). But from I hear after Casey comes along Raph tends to gravitate toward Casey more than Mike.

It's too bad that in the movie mediums Raph and Mike's closeness isn't explored at all. But I think it's made up for in the cartoon universes. In the 2k3 toon, I like the tension filled and volitile nature of their friendship, it's very love hate. (though it got diluted to a snark-fest later on down the road :roll:) But I do love it when these two have extended interaction with each other. This is in stark contrast of old toon Raph and Mike's friendship because it was mostly Raphael who teased and antaganized, and Michelangelo was the one who got annoyed.

[Scandia]

I voted for Old Toon because it is the version of Raphael that I tolerate the most. Mikey seems more consistent, and I do not dislike him. Raphael is my least favorite in all universes- but he is most tolerable in the OT/Archie.

[Newton Gimmick]

Raph annoys me with his constant "I'm tough I don't like what we're doing" attitude in most of the mediums. So I voted Mirage because although he did do that there, he and Mikey have a decent relationship and he's not abusive.

[Cipher]

Mirage. There are several hints throughout the series that Mike is a real calming force for Raph, and he's very protective of him. It's been a pretty consistant trait from the first few issues all the way up to recent stories.

Their relationship in the 4Kids cartoon takes its cue from the comics at first, but quickly devolves into "Mike makes fun of Raph, Raph hits Mike." Not to mention that those particular versions of Mike and Raph are probably my least favorite, with their over-the-top "I have ADD!" and "Everything makes me angry!" personalities.

They don't appear to have any kind of special relationship in the old cartoon.

Raph annoys me with his constant "I'm tough I don't like what we're doing" attitude in most of the mediums. So I voted Mirage because although he did do that there, he and Mikey have a decent relationship and he's not abusive. I agree with you about most versions of Raph, but he's really not too irritating in the comics. After "Sons of the Silent Age," he's pretty much calmed down and accepted his lot. There's some Leo/Raph tension in "City at War," but everything the Turtles knew was changing at that point.

[Sage Ninja]

They don't appear to have any kind of special relationship in the old cartoon.

I thought they did though it's pretty subtle. Raphael and Michaelangelo where always potrayed as the least dedicated to the whole hero bit than Donatello and Leonardo, they also seemed a bit more fed up with with it than the other two and take practice as seriously. Donatello and Leonardo always seemed more eager to jump into stuff while Mike and Raph (especially Raph) where like "God, why"? They both seemed more relaxed and more interested in doing other things involving having a life outside of their miserable ninja one.

I always saw it that Raphael and Mike sort of connected on that level, that they both shared a more apathatic view on their lifestyle than the other two. Kind of like Fry and Bender on Futurama.

And like I mentioned before Raphael and Michelangelo had a relationship somewhat like the one they have in the new toon, except that instead of Mike being they one that makes fun of Raph it's the other way around, and Michelangelo gets annoyed by it, but doesn't react violently like Raph does.

[Roland]

I voted old toon because Raph is less in conflict with his bro's and says funny things like "does the phrase go suck a lemon mean anything to you".With Mike i loved his words like "problemo" and "cowabunga". His view of something was funny for me also.

[Guitar_Raph]

My vote went to 2K3 because their brotherhood remids me of them being like Moe & Curly. Sure, they worked together when they were on a motorcycle together. But it's the Green Mantle episode that cracked me up.

As for other forms;

Next Mutation; Not much. They were too busy for each other. Raph on his motorcycle while Mikey did his pirate radio show (The Sewer Hour).

COOTS: They rocked as musicians & as "songwriters". Raph wrote the music, Mikey the lyrics. Guess they took guitar lessons together (LOL).

[ToTheNines]

I voted old toon because Raph is less in conflict with his bro's and says funny things like "does the phrase go suck a lemon mean anything to you".With Mike i loved his words like "problemo" and "cowabunga". His view of something was funny for me also.

What does that have to do with the relationship between Mike and Raph?

[Cipher]

I thought they did though it's pretty subtle. Raphael and Michaelangelo where always potrayed as the least dedicated to the whole hero bit than Donatello and Leonardo, they also seemed a bit more fed up with with it than the other two and take practice as seriously. Donatello and Leonardo always seemed more eager to jump into stuff while Mike and Raph (especially Raph) where like "God, why"? They both seemed more relaxed and more interested in doing other things involving having a life outside of their miserable ninja one.It seems like it works on paper, but I'm having trouble remembering any specific instance when Mike and Raph really had a moment together.

[Rooish]

Yay I like these topics!

Raph and Mike are my favourite relationship in the TMNT world. It all started when I read Mirage Vol. 1 Issue 4. In this issue, Raph gets crazy protective of Mike when a Foot soldier cuts his arm and calls Mike his "best buddy." This kind of hit me hard for some reason--I thought it was fascinating that, so early in the series, this wild and angry Turtle's best friend was the happy and laid-back Mike.

I voted Mirage because their relationship rarely became love-hate in that series ... it was just a nice friendship. Although I do feel Raph really did drift from Mike once Casey showed up, and when Raph started having more fights with Leo he became more involved in the team's decisions, strengthening his relationship with Leo and weakening it with Mike.

Raph and Mike's relationship in the 2003 show is always fun to watch, of course, but it does make me sad how abusive it is at times. I do like when they just have fun together, like in episodes like "Timing is Everything." It was surprising how quickly Raph and Mike's relationship degraded in the new show.

I do find it odd how Raph and Mike barely talk in the movies ... although it's cool that in COOTS the two wrote the songs.

I don't remember many interactions of meaning between Raphael and Michaelangelo in the old cartoon, but I think this is because there's not much deep emotion on that show. Still, I notice that Raph teases Mike an awful lot, and if anyone bothers to interpret relationships in the new show, that indicates that Raph either really likes or really dislikes Mike. In one of the earlier episodes, Raph expresses grave concern that Mike is dead (forget which one), which I thought was sweet. In any case, even in the old show Raph and Mike seem to be paired off together frequently.

Raph always seems to have such emotional relationships with everybody ... especially Leo and Mike, but in 2k3 he and Don seem very close too.

[MurderOfCrows]

Mirage, hands down. But yes, the introduction of Casey alters things -- dilutes it a bit -- but so does Casey and April, when Mike decides he'd rather take care of the baby then continue palling around with his brothers.

The introduction of the humans into their lives changed their entire dynamic; Raph got Casey; they created balance -- Raph kept Casey in check, Casey got Raph to blow off steam that would otherwise be vented on his brothers or otherwise in poor fashion.

Mike was allowed to bond with Shadow and was going to stay with April and Casey and be mr. ninja nanny for Shadow, and that pulled him out of his brother's conflicts, where I think he liked it better...

And thus, Raph and Mike, who were close, drifted. It's a sad thing, but it happens. I still see them being very good friends, but honestly, all told, it's going to change like any family relationship with the pressure of outside influence.

[Newton Gimmick]

I agree with you about most versions of Raph, but he's really not too irritating in the comics. After "Sons of the Silent Age," he's pretty much calmed down and accepted his lot. There's some Leo/Raph tension in "City at War," but everything the Turtles knew was changing at that point.

Agreed. Not being snarky here, but that was basically what I was saying.

[Rooish]

Mirage, hands down. But yes, the introduction of Casey alters things -- dilutes it a bit -- but so does Casey and April, when Mike decides he'd rather take care of the baby then continue palling around with his brothers.

The introduction of the humans into their lives changed their entire dynamic; Raph got Casey; they created balance -- Raph kept Casey in check, Casey got Raph to blow off steam that would otherwise be vented on his brothers or otherwise in poor fashion.

Mike was allowed to bond with Shadow and was going to stay with April and Casey and be mr. ninja nanny for Shadow, and that pulled him out of his brother's conflicts, where I think he liked it better...

And thus, Raph and Mike, who were close, drifted. It's a sad thing, but it happens. I still see them being very good friends, but honestly, all told, it's going to change like any family relationship with the pressure of outside influence.

Wow. Really great analysis! There is such crazy character development that happens in Mirage. Great praise to Laird and Eastman and Lawson for that.

You can always count on one thing to stay constant in life, and that's change.

Oh I have a question! There is a story in Turtle Soup #3, by A.C. Farley. It seems to involve Raph and Mike arguing about something (from this picture).

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p84/Rooish/0304.jpg

Does anyone know what this story is about, and care to give a synopsis?

[Time Mistress]

Mike and Raph - easily my favorite relationship in all of TMNT! I officially love this thread!

I thought the new toon did a great job with their relationship. That's one of the things that annoyed me about the old toon sorry to say, Raph was way too much of a bully and Mike was just too nice or ditzy to ever fight back, but new toon Mike gave as good as he got, at least in the earlier seasons.

Not that the old toon didn't have its moments. The end of A Thing About Rats is one of the best examples. Raph says roughly, "If anything happened to that doofus I'll never forgive myself."

Raph's always the one watching his brother's backs, but he watches Mike even more than the others because Mike is Raph's only little brother, both Don and Leo are older bros to Raph.

I'd say they're closest in Mirage though. Case in point - that page Rooish just posted. The story is called - Crack in a Hard Heart. And it's easily one of my all-time favorites. He's a transcript of it I did for Jenna X a while back since the issue is hard to find. (Hope I'm allowed to post this, if not I'll edit it out and you can pm me for it.)

Crack in a Hard Heart - by A.C. Farley

Pannel: Mike stands alone in a forest (out by the Northampton farmhouse probably). Mike's bandana is down around his neck.

Mike: RAPHAEL!

Pannel: Close up on Mike.

Mike: OH MAN! Why did I volunteer to find him? It's clear he doesn't want to be found...

Pannel: Raph sits up in a tree watching Mike look for him.

Mike: RAPHAEL! Raphael! Aren't you hungy?

Raph: Here I am...

2 Pannels: Mike looks up and sees Raph's feet dangling from the branch he sits on. Raph hops down from the tree.

Mike: Didn't you hear? Was it fun to make me hike up this mountain?

Pannel: Raph is wearing his banana above his eyes, like a sweatband. He stands walking away from Mike.

Raph: Won't hurt you to get some exercise.

Mike: Oh...yeah...THANKS A LOT!

Pannel: Mike hops over a log in their path.

Mike: C'mon Raphael! Wait up! You've been crying! I can see you have!

Pannel: Raph has his back/shell to Mike.

Raph: LEAVE ME ALONE! There's nothing wrong! Just leave me alone! I MEAN IT!

Pannel: Raph slides his bandana down over his eyes.

Mike: Sorry, but I can't leave you like this!! Let me...help?

Pannel: Raph throws a punch at Mike with a wap that it looks like Mike either just dodges or hits him across the stomach/plastron.

Pannel: Close up of Raph's clenched fists.

Mike: RAPH! C'MON BUDDY!

Pannel: Raph's fists unclench.

Pannel: Raph slides his bandana back up like before.

Raph: Mike, please! GO AWAY!

Pannel: Raph turns back away from Mike again and drapes his arms over a tree branch.

Mike: Raphael, what could upset you like this?

Raph: You're going to think it's stupid! It's just something I think about. Sometimes I wonder about out future! What if something happens to one of us? JUst now, while you were searching for me, I'd been thinking...what if we didn't have Master Splinter anymore? What is he...

Pannel: Close up of Raph's face as a tear slides out of his eye.

Raph: What if he died?!

Pannel: Reverse angle of last pannel. Mike is now is the foreground with Raph in the background a hand still closed around the tree branch. Mike has turned away from Raph posibly contemplating Raph's words.

Raph: I was wondering: how I would feel? Then, all of a sudden, the whole thing became very real! I guess I imagined too well! I began to feel awful as I would if this terrible daydream was real! Then I...I...

2 pannels: Raph puts a hand over his face. Mike puts a hand on Raph's shoulder.

Raph: Mike, I think there's something wrong with me!

Mike: No, my brother! Nothing wrong! Just something very right! We would all feel the same. It's just harder for you to balance your feelings with that hard heart of yours. Don't be sad! We'll get by!

Pannel: Mike spreads his arms wide in a welcoming gesture.

Mike: So, come! Let's go to our supper and add yet another precious memory of all of us together!!

3 pannels: Mike starts heading back down the mountain. Raph slides his badana back down over his eyes and starts to follow Mike home.

Raph (thinking to himself): That guy can be such a doofus!


Another amazing Raph/Mike story was the recent issue of Tales of TMNT with "Old Man Raph." And that no matter how old Raph gets or how the bros may drift apart some day, Raph will always remember Mike especially with love.

[Jelly Bean]

Very sweet. Very sweet indeed. Is that Raph or Mikey getting pushed away in the very first pannel?

I guess I'm going to be first to say this but I even though I really do dig the Raph and Mikey friendship, sometimes it gets on my nerves. I can't say this for the mirage comics since I've never read them, but in the 80's toon and 4KIDS toon I kind of find their friendship a bit mean spirited. Especially from Raph in both cartoons.

80's Raph is always putting Mike down, and 4KIDS Raph is pretty violent and belittling of Mikey. Mikey in the 4KIDS cartoon may ask for it alot, but sometimes it seems like Raph really hates the little spazz. I'm sorry this didn't happen during the shows run in either cartoon, but I would have liked to have seen Mikey slap Raph back (4KIDS toon) and tell Raph off (80's toon).

That's one of the things that annoyed me about the old toon sorry to say, Raph was way too much of a bully and Mike was just too nice or ditzy to ever fight back

It's because he was too nice. I don't find 80's Mike ditzy like other people do.

But yes, the introduction of Casey alters things -- dilutes it a bit

do you think there was ever any jealousy on Mike's part when Casey came into the picture?

[Rooish]

Very sweet. Very sweet indeed. Is that Raph or Mikey getting pushed away in the very first pannel?

Can't tell, but it looks like Mike is slapping Raph. Which seems OOC ... maybe trying to snap Raph out of it?

Time Mistress, thanks so much for posting the transcript. That was very sweet. I love how Mike can get through to Raph ... even in the new toon, in that episode of BttS when Raph snaps out of being mind-controlled by remembering Mikey.

I do dislike the meanness in their relationship at times. Sometimes Mike is very annoying and provocative, although it's rare that he is in Mirage, and even more rare in the OT. Raph just consistently gets caught up in his feelings a lot, and when you hurt so much, I guess it's easiest to lash out at those who treat you best and would never abandon you.

It's interesting--you can tell how much Raph needs, and cares about, his family. But you never really get the perspectives of how much the others need Raph. How much does Raph mean to Mike--as much as Raph needs him, or less (because Mike is less controlled by negative emotions)?

do you think there was ever any jealousy on Mike's part when Casey came into the picture?

Possibly, but Mike's not really the resentful type, and it's never really been explored, so that would be an example of "fanon" I suppose (to quote another thread on these forums).

[Lordmylar06]

Wow. Really great analysis! There is such crazy character development that happens in Mirage. Great praise to Laird and Eastman and Lawson for that.

You can always count on one thing to stay constant in life, and that's change.

Oh I have a question! There is a story in Turtle Soup #3, by A.C. Farley. It seems to involve Raph and Mike arguing about something (from this picture).

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p84/Rooish/0304.jpg

Does anyone know what this story is about, and care to give a synopsis?
Let me see if I remember this right...
Raph was being moody and sad, so he kinda ran off. Mikey ends up finding him and realizes he's crying. He tries to comfort him and Raph swats him away. He says what's the use of having family if they're all going to die, something of that nature. Mikey retorts with telling him that's why they need to cherish the time they have, and they walk back together when Raph realizes he's right.
I may not be exactly right, but this post really got me all nostalgic. I'm gonna read some Turtle Soup when I get home!

[Venom]

I've always loved the Raph/Mike relationship dynamic! It's somewhat sad that later on this aspect was lost, but as mentioned drifting apart is a normal part of life; Casey was a person Raph could relate to and escape from his bros for a while with. Mike seems to enjoy the more peaceful things in life and took great joy in playing with Shadow. The baby was Mike's way to escape the crazy hectic stuff the Turtles endure during their normal lives.

I've always had a story involving the Raph/Mike relationship that I would like to tell, but with the future of Tales up in the air I've never pitched it.

[Sage Ninja]

Not that the old toon didn't have its moments. The end of A Thing About Rats is one of the best examples. Raph says roughly, "If anything happened to that doofus I'll never forgive myself."

not to be a geek but what he said was " if anything happens to that little twerp I'll never forgive my self." :) And it was indeed cute to hear him say it. There are a few other instances of classic toon Raphael expressing comcern/protectiveness of the little party dude. In the mondo gecko episode Raphael is the only one that cries when he thinks Michaelangelo was killed. And in Shredder Triumphant he got protective of Michaelangelo when a slave trader was touching him and told him to get his hands off him. It was so cool, it reminded me of 2k3 which made me :D

About the Casey jealously thing, do you think they would ever explore something like that in a theatrical version of the turtles? I dearly would like to see Raphael and Mike's special friendship explored on the big screen, since it's been ignored most of the time, and show what a calming stabalizing effect Mike has on him, then shake that up by having Casey show and sort of take Mike's place as the one Raph turns to. I don't mean have him become a green eyed monster that acts nasty to Casey, but it could be subletly hinted at. Do you think movie writers would ever bother to explore this?

Also we've discussed what being close to Mike does for Raph, but what do you think being friends with Raph does for Michelangelo? Mike is very gregarious and gets along pretty well with all his brothers, but what exactly does Raph bring to the table that makes him special to Mike?

[NameGoesHere1066]

2k3 Mike and Raph for the win!

As much as Mikey annoys me, I have to say that I did enjoy the Mikey and Raph relationship. The 2k3 series really brought their relationship alive for me. I liked the added twist of the sibling rivarly they had with them sometimes competeing against each other. In the comics there is none of that and I thought having something other than Raph's resentment of Leo was cool in the new toon.

I really think it was the performance of Wayne Grayson and John Campell that really made the Raph+Mikey thing work. Other wise it would have just been alot of empty bickering on the characters part. Isn't it said that Wayne and John are pretty close friends in real life?

[Ginny]

The 2K3 series Mike and Raph definately! I love the way they interact in the 2k3 series. Pretty much all of my favorite moments from the 2K3 series involves Mike and Raph.

[Jephael]

I voted Mirage, simply because in the comics they really delve into the brothers' feelings towards one another.

[WinterMorning]

I can't say I know what Mike and Raph's relationship was like in the Mirage comics. I really can't recall what they were like in the old toons *must watch dvds again!*...So my vote goes to 2K3 by default, I suppose. I do enjoy their relationship in that series, though it can get annoying sometimes, which I guess is supposed to be the point (just like real life sibling bickerings). I really must beef up on my TMNT studies :\

[Sage Ninja]

I really love the how sweet Mikey is to Raph right here in this comic strip. I really want to see more of this kind of interaction between Raph and Mikey, and I like that Mike cares for Raph enough to do something like this for him.

http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/680901.html

you know this was pointed out by the one who orginally posted this in the new movie thread, but why couldn't Mikey have been shown doing nice considerate things for Raph more often in the 2k3 toon? Even though NT Raph can be pretty mean and boardeline abusive of Mikey, he does show that he cares alot of Mikey, but Mikey doesn't really show any real caring for Raph I've noticed. :o

[WinterMorning]

Awesome link, Sage. That was a really great read.

[MeanGreenMachine]

Even growing up with the old show, I thought the new show did a lot of this better. The relationship of the brohters and them calling Splinter father instead of master is one of them.

[NameGoesHere1066]

my biggest gripe about the 2k3 cartoon was how quickly Raph and Mikey's relationship devolved to just petty bitching and arguing.

I think the 2k3 toon had something really interesting and tangible with Raph and Mikey at the start of the series that took it's cue from the orginal mirage comics and seemed it was going to go further and deeper on their relationship than the comics did. But it really went down hill into a sterotype of a little brother/older brother relationship.

Especially in FF and BTTS. I cry when I watch the second to last episode of BTTS where that stupid cape came into the picture. I'm sorry but that wasn't Raph and Mikey there people.

[Sage Ninja]

BUMP!

ok people we have a few more turtle mediums now than we did when I made this thread. We have IDW issues, a new turtle movie, and a new cartoon series. Does anyone think think that the special friendship that Raph and Mikey have shared in the past will be explored in these mediums? I haven't read of the new comics controlled by other people but for those who have read them do Raph and Mikey have a special conection with each like they did in the mirage comics?

As far as the movie is concerned I'm not holding my breathe, the movie medium seems to be choose to not explore the Mikey Raph friendship in favor of the conflict going in the movie or Leo and Raph's bitchfests, so the only other place we can hope for some Mikey and Raph friendship is the Nick series. Do you think their special friendship will take it cue from the 2k3 series? Will they go in a different direction, wil it be ignored?

[TurtleTitan97]

I hope so. I liked how they were in 2k3 and hope they do the same in the new show.

[MikeandRaph87]

This about the easiest question Ninja Turtle-wise that could be asked of me. I love the TMNT because of the '87 cartoon and its still the best in my eyes.Part of that is the characters of Michelangelo and a close second Raphael and their dynamic. Tow send Coleman and Rob Paulsen's excellent portrayals is what inspired my Blogspot username thus this one.

My Mirage reading is largely '84-'89. I see that Mike keeps Raph anchored but their relationship seemed not fully explored because Casey Jones came into the scene atleast from what I read and know.

The 2003 cartoon was not the way I cared to see their relationship.Mike being all out annoying and Raph picking on him being rough,almost abusive. I hope that a future incarnation will take cues from the original cartoon that made me love the two characters.So far IDW just. Had them in one scene by themselves so far. Mike brought Raph to the guy they get free pizza from and they walk in on the mouser attack.

I went to Barnes &Noble and it had a Secret Origins novel of 128 pages. It was two different ones. The first had Mike and Raph together and the other ad Leo and Don pairred together. Maybe its an indication of thier relationship?

[Sage Ninja]

I will say that I have always prefered Raph+Mike over say Mike+Don or Raph+Leo. Even though in the OT all the turtles seemed to get along with one another rather well regarldess of who they were with.