Disney purchases Marvel

[The Stryker]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/disney-to-acquire-marvel-entertainment-2009-08-31-9050

Wooo boy.

I imagine some people are going to be mad about this one. I like it.

I demand a Namor/Ariel confrontation.

[GK Punk]

As long as they don't make any drastic changes, I see no reason to complain. I'm a little nervous about it though.

[The Stryker]

It'll probably end up having the same effect as WB owning DC.

Read: None at all.

[GK Punk]

That's what I'm expecting. It's really had minimal effect on DC, so I'm not sure why it would on Marvel. To be fair, I'd be a little nervous no matter who bought a comic company I follow though.

[Brodie]

I now have Disney characters tattooed to my leg...

[GK Punk]

I now have Disney characters tattooed to my leg...

Good call

/thread

[Peanut]

I'm hoping this means better animation standards on the Marvel DTV movies. No more stilted sh*t like Ultimate Avengers.

[Raph's Girl]

This autta be interesting. Will Marvel now get the rights to the Disney comics Boom Studios has been putting out??? Will Spidey team up with Gargoyles? Will Super Gonzo join the Avengers? OOh Will Lexington join Beast's group? Will Derek Maza/Talon become the new Black Panther or be worshipped by the Wakandans??

Will the Gargoyles and Mutates be forced to register? :P

[Spitfire]

Now Spider-man can kick Goofy right in the face.

[Cure]

Spider-Man would never do that. Goofy's a good guy and too likable. Make some sense, homie!

[Spitfire]

Spider-Man would never do that. Goofy's a good guy and too likable. Make some sense, homie!

But he annoys me and I like Spider-man. Would it make more sense if Deadpool did it then?

[ThirdMarioBro]

Well, there goes any hope of Marvel vs. Capcom 3 (not that there ever was much). Whatever. That's what Mugen is for. Though that thought does bother me. Disney has a longer and more violent history of shutting down fan projects (eg: stuff just like Mugen). If they sued a daycare for painting Mickey Mouse on their wall, they'll be far more likely to go after fans for making a Captain America sprite in a fan game.

Overall, this will probably/hopefully mean little in the long run, but I don't like one company owning so much. Doesn't sit right. Probably means nothing, but I've never felt comfortable with so much under one roof. And don't expect the animation to get better on DTV projects. Disney's TV stuff has been dogsh*t for years now.

I wonder how this will affect Spider-Man 4?

[The Stryker]

Disney's TV stuff has been dogsh*t for years now.

Uh. Wrong.

Phineas and Ferb is one of the best animated shows on TV today. Don't get me started on their other shows that have done crazy well.

[Ninjinister]

I'm not predicting any crossovers coming out of this, but if they did, I'd only want to see one:

Wolvie & Stitch.

Word.

[XERO]

This could possibly make the Kingdom Hearts series even more interesting.

[Raph's Girl]

I wonder how this will affect Spider-Man 4?

It won't. They've said that all the movie franchises that are done by Fox will be finished thru Fox till the contracts run out. They're not really changing anything.

[Raph's Girl]

And so it starts.... the first fan art of the Disney/Marvel merger has appeared. *rotflmao*

http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs25/f/2009/243/2/0/Mouserine_by_KidKalig.jpg

[Vicky82]

Goliath vs The Hulk, who would win? now thats a decent match
Angela and Rogue having a conversation on how bad there mothers are. (Demona and Mystique both blue and both have red hair)
Sevarius and Sinister working together.
Gambit flirting with Elisa

[Cure]

Totally didn't see that coming!

[The Stryker]

People still care about Gargoyles?

[Raph's Girl]

People still care about Gargoyles?

Yes :P

Iron Mouse! :lol:
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs193.snc1/6495_138259554816_726714816_2166675_8026490_n.jpg

[Archon_Turtle]

I wonder how this will affect Spider-Man 4?

Disney typically lets outstanding contracts run their course upon acquisition. Such as the THQ game license with Pixar when we acquired them. THQ still makes Pixar video games (as recently as UP) eventhough Disney owns Pixar. I would imagine they will treat things similarly across the board. Bob Iger said in the shareholder call with Marvel that there are a number of already attractive contracts on the table, and there is no reason to try to fix something that isn't broken. I'm sure Disney will determine courses of action in regards to current license situations as they come to a close.

[Vicky82]

People still care about Gargoyles?

yeah of cause. Theres been a Gathering of the Gargoyles conventions for 13 years now. also there are new comic books/Trade paperbacks. Gargoyles DVDs Season 1 and season 2 vol 1 still waiting for vol 2. fans get to talk to each other on the comment room at www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/index.php
Theres a website gargoyles.dracandros.com/ where there is all the information on gargoyles.

[ThirdMarioBro]

Disney typically lets outstanding contracts run their course upon acquisition. Such as the THQ game license with Pixar when we acquired them. THQ still makes Pixar video games (as recently as UP) eventhough Disney owns Pixar. I would imagine they will treat things similarly across the board. Bob Iger said in the shareholder call with Marvel that there are a number of already attractive contracts on the table, and there is no reason to try to fix something that isn't broken. I'm sure Disney will determine courses of action in regards to current license situations as they come to a close.

Well, yeah. That's good to hear, and its honestly the most likely scenario. Bob Iger is a good CEO and has already made a TON of good decisions in his relatively short time at the helm. Its just after the Wall Street "too big to fail" scenario, I kind of get worried about the more distant future with one massive company that holds half the world's IP. Copyrights last far too long in America. If copyrights ran out, perhaps IP holders would work harder to innovate with their properties and keep them fresh.

But yeah, I suppose from the fan's perspective this really is no big deal.

[Machias Banshee]

Let's not forget, Disney also bought up the Muppets.

THAT will be one screwed up crossover...

[BoggleKng]

This could possibly make the Kingdom Hearts series even more interesting.

amen... hmmmm

[Raph's Girl]

Let's not forget, Disney also bought up the Muppets.

THAT will be one screwed up crossover...

Heh... Marvel had a Muppets comic series in the 80's with their Star Line.

I can picture it now tho. The Muppets will be considered to be Mutants and Super Gonzo will be forced to register...

[Hannah]

Saying Phineas and Ferb is the best cartoon right now really isn't saying much.

[Anarky]

Okay, after extensive research and three formal inquiries to Marvel and Disney, this came to light:

So what will happen:
- Disney wants to give Marvel more exposure, which is their main goal. Read: Sell more products and make money.
- Disney gets first dibs on FUTURE Marvel projects outside of Marvel Comics and (I think) Marvel Studios.
- Disney will handle distribution. Read: Marvel Comics at WalMart becomes a realistic scenario.
- Marvel Studios will remain Marvel Studios

Here's what will NOT happen:
- Disney will NOT influence Marvel in any way other than "How about character X."
- Disney will NOT mess around with Marvel's current structure.
- Disney will NOT force their properties and views into Marvel's business.
- Disney will NOT have a Wolverine / Goofy Crossover or similar ****.

Here's what could happen:
- Marvel / Pixar co-productions.
- "Marvel Disney"-imprint.

It is worth noting:
- Both companies didn't have to make the deal, they wanted to. Read: Money-wise, this is a win/win situation.
- Today is the day where some WB and DC people will seriously contemplate suicide.
- The main focus of this whole merger are international markets, where there is huge untapped potential.
- Current Contracts with third parties will not be affected in any way.

[oldmanwinters]

Let's not forget, Disney also bought up the Muppets.

THAT will be one screwed up crossover...

Wouldn't be the first time Marvel has gotten on board with the Muppets!
QzIPV8cilx4
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/3874643117/

[ThirdMarioBro]

- Today is the day where some WB and DC people will seriously contemplate suicide.


HAHA! So true. I'm glad I don't give a crap about comic book rivalry.

[Lordmylar06]

lol, well at the very least the next Kingdom Hearts game could be very interesting...

[Anarky]

lol, well at the very least the next Kingdom Hearts game could be very interesting...
You just don't get it, eh? You're a very special person and I'm proud of you.

HAHA! So true. I'm glad I don't give a crap about comic book rivalry.
This is less about rivalry, this is more about cold, hard cash. Seeing as this deal is focusing on international things more than the domestic ones, the situation must be seen from a purely economic angle.

You see, in Europe, comics are a very niche product to the point where Magic cards are more available than the latest Spider-Man. However, what you get everywhere, from supermarkets, to newsstands to bookshops is the latest Mickey Mouse. The same goes for DVDs. Disney DVDs are available at every gas station while you have to look for everything Marvel besides the big, new movies.

Basically, Europe is a huge, untapped market for comics. There are readers everywhere, granted, but there would be so many more if people knew the comics existed. Now imagine Marvel Comics being available at every newsstand and bookshop. Sales will go up to levels previously unheard of.

[Barkworm]

Errr... at least in Germany Marvel Comics WERE available at every newsstand and bookshop. It was in the mid-90s. It was a fad and it was over rather quickly.

[Lordmylar06]

You just don't get it, eh? You're a very special person and I'm proud of you.
Someone didn't take the sarcasm 101 class. ;)

[The Stryker]

Saying Phineas and Ferb is the best cartoon right now really isn't saying much.

It's still a damn good show.

[odupianist]

It's still a damn good show.

Maybe good, but not the best out there. Spectacular Spider-man is one of the best cartoons I've seen in quite awhile. Cartoons went to **** after the mid to late 90's.

[The Stryker]

I never said the best.

Cartoons were **** in the mid to late 90s with a few gems. Nostalgia is not your friend.

But that's a whole other discussion for another day.

[ZariusTwo]

_X6VoFBCE9k

Cartoons were **** in the mid to late 90s with a few gems. Nostalgia is not your friend.

"Nostalgia" is the most overused word used by joyless ciphers to ever come out of anyone's mouth. Ever. Cartoons in the mid to late 90s were still pretty solid, with the exception of most of the Marvel series, which don't hold up whatsoever.


Here's what will NOT happen:
- Disney will NOT influence Marvel in any way other than "How about character X."
- Disney will NOT mess around with Marvel's current structure.

...YET.

People are only fooling themselves if they think Disney WON'T take a gander at the moraless "structure" of the publishing wing and demand things be amended. Frankly, I wouldnt mind it if Marvel got the P.C hammer. It's stopped being recognisible without someone telling them to clean up their act.

- Disney will NOT force their properties and views into Marvel's business.

You don't know that for certain...and I guarantee that this WILL happen. It might not be immediate, it might take a few years, but it WILL happen.

[Raph's Girl]

And what does Stan The Man have to say about this?

"To me, becoming 'Disneyfied' is not a bad thing. I mean look at (Disney) movies like 'Pirates of the Caribbean,'" Lee, who parted ways with Marvel years ago, but remains its Chairman Emeritus, said in a telephone interview with Reuters.

"Disney knows how to do movies. They know how to do colorful characters and I think the fans, if they think about it, they're going to love it."

http://www.reuters.com/article/ousivMolt/idUSTRE57U6A220090901

[ZariusTwo]

Stan Lee shills just about anything.

This is the man who, when he ISNT backing anything Marvel do, he's suing them

[Archon_Turtle]

Eventually I could see "crossovers" in more of the mashup style Disney uses for Star Wars. Stuff like this, but with Marvel. You get the idea.

http://www.certain.com/event/accounts/register123/disney/waltdisneyworld/events/swbigfig/mickey.jpg

[That Matt Guy]

Errr... at least in Germany Marvel Comics WERE available at every newsstand and bookshop. It was in the mid-90s. It was a fad and it was over rather quickly.

Yeah, even in the US back then. I remember buying comics at gas stations.

[Barkworm]

Do people really still care about what Stan Lee has to say?

[ZariusTwo]

Do people really still care about what Stan Lee has to say?

Considering he revived Spider-Man's marraige in the newspaper strip,..yes. He clearly still knows what a HERO actually is. And he has more of an ironic sense of humour that Marvel's current crop of hacks PRETEND to have. I'd still read something from him even if it'd be a tad melodramatic.

This is what's wrong with comic fans of today. No respect for the people that brought them all the heroes they want beating each up and acting like seedy douchebags rather than bail anyone out of a fire or a collapsing building. THIS is how Marvel have gotten so succesful the last ten years. Moraless vacuam shock value and an emphasis on hack writers indulging in playground politics

[Brodie]

I sure will miss the Punisher MAX line.

[Spike Spiegel]

This is what's wrong with comic fans of today. No respect for the people that brought them all the heroes they want beating each up and acting like seedy douchebags rather than bail anyone out of a fire or a collapsing building. THIS is how Marvel have gotten so succesful the last ten years. Moraless vacuam shock value and an emphasis on hack writers indulging in playground politics

I feel the same way more or less...I've seen way too many "universe shattering events" on both the Marvel and DC sides thes past few years,i.e.:

One More Day
Batman R.I.P
Infinite Crisis
Secret Invasion
Civil War
Back in Black (cheap gimmick)
Identity Crisis
52

[Magneto]

Considering he revived Spider-Man's marraige in the newspaper strip,..yes.

Did Stan actually revive the marriage? Or simply left it alone with the newspaper strip by ignoring the whole "deal with the devil" the Marvel comics chose to go with?

I've never read the Spider-Man newspaper strip, but I always thought it was the latter, rather than the former. :???:

As far as the Disney buying Marvel story, I don't see it affecting the comics in any way at this point. Films and especially merchandising, yes. Exposure? Yes. But the comics are really just a small drop of water in the big money river Disney has. So, no. I can't see that being toyed with to the extent some are fearing.

[Raph's Girl]

uyYb_r4cZHE

Nuff said

[ZariusTwo]

Did Stan actually revive the marriage? Or simply left it alone with the newspaper strip by ignoring the whole "deal with the devil" the Marvel comics chose to go with?

He sort of snubbed BND by having Peter wake up from a dream to find he was still married. The last six months before that storyline had been a "flashback" to when he dated MJ just to plug BND. The fact he wakes up a nightmare is intended to imply everything in BND is something Stan would rather ignore.

Really, the only Spidey continuity worth a damn in terms of growing the characters and giving them new responsibilities is Tom DeFalco's MC2 canon..which, like the newspaper strip, has lasted eleven years despite three cancelations. Disney marketing Spider-Girl towards it's female audience would be a boost for that character. It's obvious her time has come, but alas, I think it will remain the undervalued classic it's always been. The irony of this is that Joe Quesada is a fan of the title and gives it more chances than he ever does with Exiles to be a success. Some argue Tom needs to pass the torch to another writer so it can have more range, others are protective of how Tom views the character, but I think if he had creative control and a fresh talent (in particular a bigger "name", which alas, DeFalco has never been, despite Roger Stern calling him Spidey's best writer besides Stan) DID have a shot, it could potentially boost sales better.

The newspaper strip is notoriously hard to find due to it's declining circulation in Newspapers, but it has remained in publication for thirty years regardless, it has also been gaining considerable success on the internet over the last few years by either being parodied or having the original versions hosted online.

It's fun, accessible, and still features Peter and MJ acting more or less in-character and in refreshingly positive and mature roles. It's a delight to read and I would rather count these rather than the last ten years of character derailment that has destroyed not just those two, but every member of the Spider-Man supporting cast whose name isnt Norman Osborn

I go with what the guy who created (or co-created depending on your view of Lee/Ditko's collaberations together) the character rather than what the company wants. Sales for ASM are in the s*itter and the character would be on the brink of sheer irrelevancy if it werent for Marvel succesfully branding their products

As far as the Disney buying Marvel story, I don't see it affecting the comics in any way at this point. Films and especially merchandising, yes. Exposure? Yes. But the comics are really just a small drop of water in the big money river Disney has. So, no. I can't see that being toyed with to the extent some are fearing.

The rise in the level of moralles filth on both sides is attrocious and DOES need to be addressed by a corproate intervention in the same way the Comics Code was initiated...it's not happening anytime soon, but to say it will never happen is a little short-sighted.


I feel the same way more or less...I've seen way too many "universe shattering events" on both the Marvel and DC sides thes past few years,i.e.:

One More Day
Batman R.I.P
Infinite Crisis
Secret Invasion
Civil War
Back in Black (cheap gimmick)
Identity Crisis
52

it's hard to judge Batman R.I.P since everyone knew it was just Bruce taking a break for a few years, and because it's part of a longer story that hasnt finished yet, but I agree with everything else listed.

[Magneto]

He sort of snubbed BND by having Peter wake up from a dream to find he was still married. The last six months before that storyline had been a "flashback" to when he dated MJ just to plug BND. The fact he wakes up a nightmare is intended to imply everything in BND is something Stan would rather ignore.

Really, the only Spidey continuity worth a damn in terms of growing the characters and giving them new responsibilities is Tom DeFalco's MC2 canon..which, like the newspaper strip, has lasted eleven years despite three cancelations. Disney marketing Spider-Girl towards it's female audience would be a boost for that character. It's obvious her time has come, but alas, I think it will remain the undervalued classic it's always been. The irony of this is that Joe Quesada is a fan of the title and gives it more chances than he ever does with Exiles to be a success. Some argue Tom needs to pass the torch to another writer so it can have more range, others are protective of how Tom views the character, but I think if he had creative control and a fresh talent (in particular a bigger "name", which alas, DeFalco has never been, despite Roger Stern calling him Spidey's best writer besides Stan) DID have a shot, it could potentially boost sales better.

The newspaper strip is notoriously hard to find due to it's declining circulation in Newspapers, but it has remained in publication for thirty years regardless, it has also been gaining considerable success on the internet over the last few years by either being parodied or having the original versions hosted online.

It's fun, accessible, and still features Peter and MJ acting more or less in-character and in refreshingly positive and mature roles. It's a delight to read and I would rather count these rather than the last ten years of character derailment that has destroyed not just those two, but every member of the Spider-Man supporting cast whose name isnt Norman Osborn

I go with what the guy who created (or co-created depending on your view of Lee/Ditko's collaberations together) the character rather than what the company wants. Sales for ASM are in the s*itter and the character would be on the brink of sheer irrelevancy if it werent for Marvel succesfully branding their products

Joe Q has made no bones about his thoughts on the marriage between Peter Parker and Mary Jane for years now. So it wasnt too surprising to see it being retconned out, but it's quite unfortunate that it was done in such a shoddy way (deal with the devil? eh). Stan Lee, to his credit, is very much aware of the dissatisfaction a good number of fans have had with this decision, and he's basically giving Spider-Man fans the best of both worlds. If they prefer Joe Q's version, there you go. If you prefer the Ultimate line, there you go. And if you prefer the marriage intact, apparently the newspaper strip is .. well .. the way to go. Even if the strip plays no role in Marvel 616 continuity, making it .. I'm sure ... bittersweet to some fans who enjoy it for what it is.

Personally, I've enjoyed some of the stuff that has come down the pike since BND, but I could do without OMD, much like the horrid Sins Past. :roll:


The rise in the level of moralles filth on both sides is attrocious and DOES need to be addressed by a corproate intervention in the same way the Comics Code was initiated...it's not happening anytime soon, but to say it will never happen is a little short-sighted.

Yeah, you kinda lost me here. Pretty much the last thing that needs to happen is a big brother type program stepping in to essenti\ally regulate in terms of what has been presented in comics (especially in this decade). I mean, really. To actually ask for something of along the lines of a Comics Code Authority is a little short-sighted as well, and could very well be the equivalent of opening a can of worms.

[ZariusTwo]

Joe Q has made no bones about his thoughts on the marriage between Peter Parker and Mary Jane for years now. So it wasnt too surprising to see it being retconned out, but it's quite unfortunate that it was done in such a shoddy way (deal with the devil? eh). Stan Lee, to his credit, is very much aware of the dissatisfaction a good number of fans have had with this decision, and he's basically giving Spider-Man fans the best of both worlds. If they prefer Joe Q's version, there you go. If you prefer the Ultimate line, there you go.

Quesada is the same. In one of his interviews, he admited one of the other reasons for BND was to boost sales of Spider-Girl and eventually give her some leverage with a wider audience since Peter and MJ have grown as parents in that continuity, plus it's outlasted EVERY attempt at rebooting continuity to the point it's practically definitive.

I don't mind if Marvel want to reboot the franchise, it's obvious they think they have no choice, but they could have just made the Ultimate Universe the mainstream timeline and boosted it's popularity, instead of slowly depriving it of it's dignity and relevancy.

They not only went about rebooting Spider-Man the wrong way, they have not been true to the characters at all since BND began. Combine that with the writers throwing temper tantrums at the fans online, and there's the reason why the title is slowly failing to sell.

And if you prefer the marriage intact, apparently the newspaper strip is .. well .. the way to go. Even if the strip plays no role in Marvel 616 continuity, making it .. I'm sure ... bittersweet to some fans who enjoy it for what it is.

Bittersweet? Hardly. It actually fits so well into continuity and even gives readers a chance to plug gaps with fresh continuty (not to mention seems to be bringing back long-discarded characterisation like Sandman going straight), that it makes BND look even more incompetant and dated. Reallisticly, it's not contributing to the sales decline of ASM, but it's still TRUE Spider-Man. That's something BND can barely lay claim to.

Yeah, you kinda lost me here. Pretty much the last thing that needs to happen is a big brother type program stepping in to essenti\ally regulate in terms of what has been presented in comics (especially in this decade). I mean, really. To actually ask for something of along the lines of a Comics Code Authority is a little short-sighted as well, and could very well be the equivalent of opening a can of worms.

I don't want a repeat of the "Comics Code" fiasco (which we all know Stan Lee gave the finger too, leading to comics striking back and doing whatever they wanted again). What I meant was for more "quality control" for titles that are capable of demonstrating taboo issues and those that do not based on character and format.

[Magneto]

Quesada is the same. In one of his interviews, he admited one of the other reasons for BND was to boost sales of Spider-Girl and eventually give her some leverage with a wider audience since Peter and MJ have grown as parents in that continuity, plus it's outlasted EVERY attempt at rebooting continuity to the point it's practically definitive.

That's a pretty shoddy reason amongst others for the idea of BND, but that's not all that terribly surprising. Under Joseph's reign as Editor-in-Chief, Spider-Man has experienced some very unsatisfying storylines come about. OMD being one, BND being another, and the previously mentioned Sins Past being yet another (just off the top of my head). Thankfully for him, he can always fall back on the Ultimate line being created under his tenure. Otherwise, he would appear pretty inept when it comes to handling Spider-Man in my estimation.

I don't mind if Marvel want to reboot the franchise, it's obvious they think they have no choice, but they could have just made the Ultimate Universe the mainstream timeline and boosted it's popularity, instead of slowly depriving it of it's dignity and relevancy.

As mentioned above, I think alot of fans find Joe Q completely inept when handling anything related to Spider-Man. He's been dead set on doing away with the marriage for years now, and if that was truly the case, which it is, you would think it wouldnt have been implemented in such a shoddy way as we saw in OMD. But whats done is done. Spider-Man franchise, and Quesada's strong feelings about having Peter single again aside, I think most fans will still take the reg 616 universe over the ultimate line anyday. Theres alot of good stuff in the regular continuity that is extremely entertaining. It really doesnt need a complete overall.

Bittersweet? Hardly. It actually fits so well into continuity and even gives readers a chance to plug gaps with fresh continuty (not to mention seems to be bringing back long-discarded characterisation like Sandman going straight), that it makes BND look even more incompetant and dated. Reallisticly, it's not contributing to the sales decline of ASM, but it's still TRUE Spider-Man. That's something BND can barely lay claim to.

That's exactly what would make reading such a strip bittersweet in my estimation. To read something that feels more like Spider-Man than what is currently being presented in the marvel comics (since it's very apparent that comparisons are going to be made), and to know all-too-well in the back of your mind that it will never be acknowledged in the continuity. :ohwell:

[ZariusTwo]

That's a pretty shoddy reason amongst others for the idea of BND, but that's not all that terribly surprising. Under Joseph's reign as Editor-in-Chief, Spider-Man has experienced some very unsatisfying storylines come about. OMD being one, BND being another, and the previously mentioned Sins Past being yet another (just off the top of my head). Thankfully for him, he can always fall back on the Ultimate line being created under his tenure. Otherwise, he would appear pretty inept when it comes to handling Spider-Man in my estimation.

He also paved the way for Marvel Knights (which was ANOTHER fresh continuity that he never used, despite there being LESS reason to retell origin stories because the MK line's purpose was to tell iconic stories)

I think most fans will still take the reg 616 universe over the ultimate line anyday.

All the more ludicrous for them to prefer a continuity that has had it's chronology, beleivability, and mature characterisation of half it's superhero roster deliberatly tossed out of the window just to make money. That's what I call "rewarding stupidity".

They won't budge from 616 because Marvel itself doesnt want to jettison the 616 continuity. If they just bit the bullet and actually tried it, fans would gradually accept the changes. It's not as if the Ultimate line wasnt an initial success..indeed, at the height of it's popularity it was defining Marvel's modern mythology more than anything in 616 was doing at the time.

That's exactly what would make reading such a strip bittersweet in my estimation. To read something that feels more like Spider-Man than what is currently being presented in the marvel comics (since it's very apparent that comparisons are going to be made), and to know all-too-well in the back of your mind that it will never be acknowledged in the continuity. :ohwell:

It's the other way around for me. It's Marvel's current "continuity" that will never be properly acknowledged or accepted and that's why the sales are in the toilet.

[Raph's Girl]

Soo.. Kirby's heirs aren't too happy that Disney bought Marvel....and they're looking to stop it by copywrighting all the characters Kirby ever did, thus preventing Disney and their associating properties from ever using em. So much for a Fin Fang Foom movie....darn :P

http://www.newsarama.com/film/090920-kirby-copyright-marvel.html

Heirs to comic book legend Jack Kirby sent 45 notices of copyright termination to Marvel Entertainment, prospective Marvel buyer Disney, Sony Pictures, Universal Pictures, 20th Century Fox, Paramount Pictures, and others studios that that hold licensed media rights to Marvel characters, this according to a Sunday afternoon report published on the New York Times website.

The Times reports the legal notices expressed an intent to regain copyrights to some Kirby co-creations as early as 2014, this according to a statement from Toberoff & Associates, a Los Angeles firm that helped win a court ruling last year returning a share of the copyright in Superman to heirs of the character’s co-creator, Jerry Siegel.

Mr. Toberoff declined to elaborate on the statement reached for comments Sunday by the Times. According to the newspaper, a Marvel spokesperson had no comment, but Disney replied in a statement, “The notices involved are an attempt to terminate rights seven to 10 years from now, and involve claims that were fully considered in the acquisition.” Fox, Sony, Paramount and Universal reportedly had no comment.

As the Times reports points out, Disney's acquisition of Marvel is far from a done deal and must still be approved by Marvel shareholders. Wall Street is apparently already speculating that due to a complicated array of various rights agreements, shareholders may worry that Disney will face difficulty immediately exploiting Marvel's most valuable intellectual property.

Cited in the story is the fact that Sony holds the film rights to Spider-Man in perpetuity.

The proposed Disney deal could give creators or their heirs new reason to exploit United States copyright law to stake a claim.

Under U.S. law, an author or his or her heirs can begin a process to regain copyrights a certain period of years after the original grant. While the report did not cite what characters were cited in the termination notices, if Kirby’s family were to gain the copyright to a co-created character like the Fantastic Four or the Incredible Hulk, they could become entitled to a share of profits from films or other properties featuring the character, or obtain the rights to sell characters independently of Marvel, Disney, or the various studios that have licensed the Marvel characters.

Seriously tho..this won't do SQUAT to effect anything. Most of Kirby's characters aren't even used anymore...except for that robot in the 12 and Fin Fang Foom. Kirby didn't create The Hulk...he created a bunch of villans....about the only major F4 thing he did was creating the Fantasti Cars. *lol* Here's a list of all his creations....Fantastic 4? Yeah.. of earth 2812! I don't think we have anything to worry about over this...unless they think of making a Devil Dinosaur movie or Fin Fang Foom...after 2014....:

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/appkirby.htm

[ZariusTwo]

As much as I want someone to pry The Hulk and the FF away from the anti-christ of comics, I agree. Chicken-feed at best is all they'll get, that, or "healthy" compensation from Disney to keep their beaks shut.

[Magneto]

He also paved the way for Marvel Knights (which was ANOTHER fresh continuity that he never used, despite there being LESS reason to retell origin stories because the MK line's purpose was to tell iconic stories)

Marvel Knights is alright. But I was more or less referring to Spider-Man related stuff that was created under Quesada's direction. Which obviously the best being Ultimate Spider-Man.

All the more ludicrous for them to prefer a continuity that has had it's chronology, beleivability, and mature characterisation of half it's superhero roster deliberatly tossed out of the window just to make money. That's what I call "rewarding stupidity".

I think the 616 continuity will always be preferred because it's THE continuity pretty much everyone at Marvel grew up on. There's alot of affection for that stuff, so naturally, it's still marketed. DC as of late, is following suit. Becoming MUCH more silver age in tone than it has since the 1985 Crisis on Infinite Earths event.

They won't budge from 616 because Marvel itself doesnt want to jettison the 616 continuity. If they just bit the bullet and actually tried it, fans would gradually accept the changes. It's not as if the Ultimate line wasnt an initial success..indeed, at the height of it's popularity it was defining Marvel's modern mythology more than anything in 616 was doing at the time.

I'm not sure radical changes such as a complete reboot in continuity would be accepted by fans or not. It all depends on how it's presented. And needless to say, some fans will ALWAYS prefer the way something was done in the 616 universe over whatever else is tried. Same goes for the Ultimate line. I like Ultimate Captain America and all, but Brubaker has done some amazing work on Captain America since he's been associated with the character, and I really don't feel the need to just do away with all of that. Especially if it's just for a more Ultimate like version.

As much as I want someone to pry The Hulk and the FF away from the anti-christ of comics, I agree. Chicken-feed at best is all they'll get, that, or "healthy" compensation from Disney to keep their beaks shut.

I figure this is the likely scenario with WB/DC and the Siegels as well.

[Jester]

So it dawned on me today, with Disney now owning Marvel doe this mean that Disney may air new Marvel toons like Spectacular Spider-man and Wolverine and the X-men on their channels as opposed to the NickToons Network. And what does this mean for Spidey? I mean did Weisman leave Disney back in the days of Gargoyles on decent terms?

[Cure]

Spectacular already airs on Disney XD. I dunno about the others.

[Anarky]

So it dawned on me today, with Disney now owning Marvel doe this mean that Disney may air new Marvel toons like Spectacular Spider-man and Wolverine and the X-men on their channels as opposed to the NickToons Network. And what does this mean for Spidey? I mean did Weisman leave Disney back in the days of Gargoyles on decent terms?
Future cartoons are very likely to be aired on Disney channels. The past cartoons will stay where they are until contracts run out and then "go home" to the Disney channels.

Existing contracts, no matter where they are or what they concern will stay in place until the projects associated with them are done.

[Raph's Girl]

I mean did Weisman leave Disney back in the days of Gargoyles on decent terms?

Disney treats Weisman like crap but he still has to ask them permission to do stuff like the recent Gargoyles comic. He had to wait for them to edit the books and they sometimes took months to do just one issue.

[ZariusTwo]

Marvel Knights is alright. But I was more or less referring to Spider-Man related stuff that was created under Quesada's direction. Which obviously the best being Ultimate Spider-Man.

I was referring to how Marvel Knights could have been the relaunched continuity that Quesada clearly wanted from the beggining, instead he raped the original and now it's 616-in-designation-only. A lot of what's in the current continuity fits what MK was laying the foundations for.

I think the 616 continuity will always be preferred because it's THE continuity pretty much everyone at Marvel grew up on.

Any universe that's had to reboot itself five times in ten years using everyone from Jean, to Wanda, to Mephisto having illogical, out-of-character powers isnt "the universe everyone grew up on". That's the universe every reader NOW is being raised on. Us? Marvel don't give a s*it about us, they see us as the enemy because we embraced any era beyond the Silver Age, the era Quesada, Bendis, Miller, and every other writer working there currently was raised on and the era they want back at any cost.

I can symphasise with them slightly on this, I really do. Mss Marvel, Nova, Spider-Woman, Iron Fist, Luke Cage...they all got the shaft once the Silver Age ended, but have since become the backbone of the Marvel universe lately...they were undeground cult classics that left an impression and when their fans got into power, they became relevant and profitable again

You know what's sad? They have sent a very publuc message that ANY generation that takes over from them will now come in and do anything to bring back the 1990s, or bring back the last ten years. Marvel have went from a House of Ideas that listened to their audience to a House where everyone tears the other apart thinking they know what's better for a franchise whilst everything backwards, forwards, and in-between pertaining to the franchise completly collapses in from under itself.

DC as of late, is following suit. Becoming MUCH more silver age in tone than it has since the 1985 Crisis on Infinite Earths event.

D.C have had their critics too where that's concerned, but I've always found it more acceptable because they don't give thier readers the finger (at least not intentionally, Marvel DO give us the finger intentionally)

D.C has it better off because they don't insult the reader's intelligence and it's sort of nice to see that stuff brought back....but that's because, prior to now, nothing about the Silver Age treaded on the character's feet, and for the most part, that still isnt happening. Marvel's current attempts to rip off D.C's return to the Silver Age has affected every character whose names arent Carol Danvers, Jessica Drew, Luke Cage or others etc...all the other characters are largely defined by what came after the Silver Age because they continued to grow and mature, while the ones that benefit more stood completly still.

What Marvel don't understand is that people like them because they never used to be D.C. People liked them because it was a universe that was a little more "real". It used real cities, real landmarks, real Presidents etc. When the principle of time-travel came up, they even told us "oh, anything we do in the past creates alternate universes, ours is preserved". People got into Marvel because they wouldnt "cheat" them with imaginary stories or hoaxy time-travel in the principle title (that's why they had "What If"), and you felt characters could age and maybe even pass the torch...then Marvel realized "Uh oh...passing the torch is a no-no" (Despite the fact that Hal Jordan and Barry Allen are second-generation heroes yet are considered the DEFINITIVE Green Lantern and Flash) and they just stopped dead.


Fans arent accepting a reboot right now, but in Spider-Man and X-Men's cases, the multiple reboots to the universe as a whole have only affected their titles...but considering those two are the flagship heroes, you can see why that's a problem if suddenly they are doing bad buisness.

A large group of fans left after Grant Morrison left the title, ending it on a continuity-raping mess it's not recovered from...but I blame that on Marvel simply not throwing in the towel on the current continuity and insisting they stay glued to it.

Marvel raised me on a beleivable universe. There may be magic, there may be giant aliens, there may be dorky planet-eaters in purple helmets, but there's characters

They don't need it anymore, the characters have outgrown their original statua quoe, readers don't want the same old s*it...and


It all depends on how it's presented. And needless to say, some fans will ALWAYS prefer the way something was done in the 616 universe over whatever else is tried.

Some fans cherry-pick what they prefer and what they don't. All from the same fruit basket. There's several active timeline where everything that occured in the past STILL applies, it's just things have moved a little further, why can't they accept THEM? It's nothing more than cowardly, narrow-minded, biased hypocrisy fuelled by nostalgia and resistance to change, and it has poisoned this industry now and forever. Marvel have people in charge that understand that diversity is what makes Marvel succesful, yet they can't bring themselves to quietly retire the universe that hampered diversity with any dignity..oh no, the principle universe HAS to be ruined all so readers will accept horrific changes and out-of-character moments "better".

Same goes for the Ultimate line. I like Ultimate Captain America and all, but Brubaker has done some amazing work on Captain America since he's been associated with the character, and I really don't feel the need to just do away with all of that. Especially if it's just for a more Ultimate like version.

Who said classic stories had to be jettisoned if the continuity was rebooted?

D.C would try to reconcile Wonder Woman's now "continuityless" World War II era using Dianah's MOTHER in the role of Wonder Woman. Grant Morrison's Batman run has reconciled continuity from before the Silver Age, even the dopiest plotlines became part of Bruce's heavily meditated schizophrensic "Zur En Ah" persona, or revealed as having been experianced...and all of it having a heavy affect on his mind over the years.

We still have retcon punches and other time-distortion events every few years, but the stories beyond the origins arent really tampered with either. Superman's had 150 origins, based on the golden age, the silver age, the Donner Movies...and heaven forbid we'll probably get Mullet of Steel back, or maybe Kevin Smith's "Superman Lives" script in comic form.

BUT...Superman still died, Superman still married Lois, Superman still faced the 1,000 versions of General Zod (and then the real one), Lex Luthor still went from legit buisnessman to mad scientist...every story still counts despite the origin changing.


You can enjoy anything Marvel do with a fresh continuity if they followed the same principle. Ed Brubaker's work on Captain America can be read without having to associate it with an ongoing linear continuity. If they wanted to, Steve could have ended up in this situation because of ANY situation...you could even put one of my favourate "What If..."s in canon and retcon "Cival War" completly, and it could still count.

[Magneto]

I was referring to how Marvel Knights could have been the relaunched continuity that Quesada clearly wanted from the beggining, instead he raped the original and now it's 616-in-designation-only. A lot of what's in the current continuity fits what MK was laying the foundations for.

Relauching Marvel's 616 continuity at the time MK Spider-Man was hitting the stands would have been a bit too much, too soon. We were already getting a relaunched continuity with Ultimate Spider-Man. Did we really need another relaunch implemented by Quesada?

Any universe that's had to reboot itself five times in ten years using everyone from Jean, to Wanda, to Mephisto having illogical, out-of-character powers isnt "the universe everyone grew up on". That's the universe every reader NOW is being raised on. Us? Marvel don't give a s*it about us, they see us as the enemy because we embraced any era beyond the Silver Age, the era Quesada, Bendis, Miller, and every other writer working there currently was raised on and the era they want back at any cost.

Retcons have been in comics for decades now, and is really nothing new. That's where the aforementioned Mephisto falls into. It's not a complete reboot as you are suggesting, it's a retcon of several events but overall keeping much of what transpired in the Spidey books since the marriage in the mid-late 1980's very much in play. Wanda? I don't see House of M to be anymore of a reboot in continuity than The Age of Apocalypse storyline. Honestly, it's pretty soft considering most of all the popular mutants in the X-Men books STILL have their powers expect for a handfull (Magneto being one and yeah ... he'll get em back obviously), which was clearly done to give the arc some ramifications.

Reboots in my estimation, are stuff like;

The Ultimate books.

What followed in the DC Comics following Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Or to a lesser extent, garbage like Heroes Return.

Retcons go like this;

JLA meeting the JSA of Earth-2 back in the 1960's,
Parker as a clone & Reilly as the real deal for a short while in the Spidey Books,
Alec Holland having actually died instead of transforming into Swamp Thing,
The rape of Sue Dibny in Identity Crisis,
Eddie Brock having cancer before his bonding with the symbiote,
the newly released Superman Secret Origin, which is following Birthright
& yeah ... the events of Spidey's BND (which is much softer than the horrid Spider-Man Chapter One by John Byrne in the late 1990s)

As mentioned above, this stuff has been going on for years in comics, and in this day and age where events are happening left and right, it's really no surprise to see retcons still being implemented. Honestly, did they ever stop?

Marvel have people in charge that understand that diversity is what makes Marvel succesful, yet they can't bring themselves to quietly retire the universe that hampered diversity with any dignity..oh no, the principle universe HAS to be ruined all so readers will accept horrific changes and out-of-character moments "better".

I respect your strong feelings on the issue at hand. The idea of essentially replacing the 616 universe because it's basically overstayed it's welcome would certainly force Marvel to boot the nostalgia kick, but I believe that fans and creators like the fact that there's definately more of a linear continuity (even with all the retcons) than say for instance the DCU (Earth-1, Earth-2, New Earth), and are not so froggy to do away with much of the 70s years of continuity in order to completely reboot the "primary universe" from scratch. Sure, it's quite ballsy. And admirable in a way, but taking that kind of gamble could easily improve itself into a massive failure as just as well. And the last thing we need is a Marvel version of Zero Hour following a complete reboot of the 616 universe simply because not everyone decided to play ball, or because of errors on the part of the editorial. Which was such the case over at DC following their major reboot in COIE.

Who said classic stories had to be jettisoned if the continuity was rebooted?

Again, are we talking Reboots? Or retcons?

In a reboot, you wouldnt have a Spider-Man flash back to ASM #12 where Doc Ock unmasked him. You wouldnt have Superman recalling meeting Supergirl for the first time in Action Comics #252. You wouldnt have Lex Luthor mentioning Lexor, and his dead wife and child. Why? Because a reboot of the franchise took place. And there would certainly be a good reason WHY a reboot was put into place. Much like how the Batman film franchise was rebooted following the disaterous Batman and Robin.

A retcon is a completely different story.

D.C would try to reconcile Wonder Woman's now "continuityless" World War II era using Dianah's MOTHER in the role of Wonder Woman.

Which honestly wasnt a bad idea. But yeah, Infinite Crisis took place, and lo and behold, there was the Earth-2 Wonder Woman making an appearance. Putting all that 1940's continuity BACK into play.

Grant Morrison's Batman run has reconciled continuity from before the Silver Age, even the dopiest plotlines became part of Bruce's heavily meditated schizophrensic "Zur En Ah" persona, or revealed as having been experianced...and all of it having a heavy affect on his mind over the years.

And what a great idea that was. :roll:

Much like the underwhelming, Final Crisis.

We still have retcon punches and other time-distortion events every few years, but the stories beyond the origins arent really tampered with either. Superman's had 150 origins, based on the golden age, the silver age, the Donner Movies...and heaven forbid we'll probably get Mullet of Steel back, or maybe Kevin Smith's "Superman Lives" script in comic form.

BUT...Superman still died, Superman still married Lois, Superman still faced the 1,000 versions of General Zod (and then the real one), Lex Luthor still went from legit buisnessman to mad scientist...every story still counts despite the origin changing.

Ok. Exactly. This is what I'm talking about. That's why theres a difference from rebooting something (such as Byrne's Man of Steel), to simply retconing events, origins, and such (Superman: Secret Origin being a perfect example).

You can enjoy anything Marvel do with a fresh continuity if they followed the same principle. Ed Brubaker's work on Captain America can be read without having to associate it with an ongoing linear continuity. If they wanted to, Steve could have ended up in this situation because of ANY situation...you could even put one of my favourate "What If..."s in canon and retcon "Cival War" completly, and it could still count.

I personally find Brubaker's run on Cap to be very enjoyable for many reasons. But not the least being that he has sincerely taken the time to link up thru several events that have transpired in Cap's rich linear continuity. You have the flash backs of Cap and Bucky taking it to the nazis, you have the association with the original 1940's Human Torch being put into a storyline, you have the revelation of Bucky surviving, the death of Jack Monroe, the appearance of the Cosmic Cube, hell .. you even have the long-thought-dead 1950's "Commie Smasher" Cap returning. And it's all done in a very satisfying way. Theres a rich history there that Brubaker is acknowledging, and it all works beautifully.

This is something that simply could not be done with a complete reboot that starts everything from scratch.

[ZariusTwo]

Relauching Marvel's 616 continuity at the time MK Spider-Man was hitting the stands would have been a bit too much, too soon. We were already getting a relaunched continuity with Ultimate Spider-Man. Did we really need another relaunch implemented by Quesada?

There's not a whole lot of evidence that says it'd be a bad thing, or that it's new to begin with.

Ever since Quesada took over, he has tripled the amount of alternate universes in order to tell iconic stories from every era. Marvel recently announced they were getting "serious" with the previously "iconic" Marvel Adventures line, so there you have it, we have an all-new Marvel timeline being built from the ground up.

And then you have the 161 universe, which seems to be the universe that allows the veteran writers to do whatever the heck they want with the franchises they are best kinown for as if they never left (X-Men Forever is the first title in this universe). If Marvel were perfectly capable of launching two AUs at the time the original was in need of diverse options to draw "inspiration" from, then we could have had these much earlier.


That's where the aforementioned Mephisto falls into. It's not a complete reboot as you are suggesting it's a retcon of several events but overall keeping much of what transpired in the Spidey books since the marriage in the mid-late 1980's very much in play

Back then, Peter, MJ, Felicia etc all grew and matured, and acted NOTHING like they are now. If Marvel gave a damn about the characters, NONE of what has been driving away readers would have happened.

As a Spidey authority, I can vouch that neither the continuity OR characterisation is the same as it was even if the gormless hacks we call the BND writing staff claim "everything still counts". So "impecable" they are at continuity that they reprinted a scene from The Lost Years when Peter was remembering Ben Reily in the recent ASM annual thinking Ben and Janine was he and MJ, the scene actually implied he was Ben Reily. The writers had to apologise for that mistake as it was unintentional, but would have given them an apt exucuse to "cleanse" Peter of this crap. Instead, they have no intention of doing so. They are blind to the damage they are doing, cracking under pressure. Thier boss gets away scott free because he actually supports titles where the characters are adult

The reality is these guys have no clue how to write Spider-Man and they don't want to figure out how to adapt to the married version. They despise the character for outgrowing them and they are "punishing" the franchise for such a progession.

The Peter, MJ, Feliica, Flash, Harry, and Norman in BND are NOT the same characters they were in 1987 or beyond, nor are they the characters BEFORE then, who ALSO acted more mature than this. They are parodies of their former selves, and it's done in such a character-raping way that one would think it's deliberate, like they know it's going to be retconned and there doing anything they want before it's swept under the rug. Assasine.

Honestly, it's pretty soft considering most of all the popular mutants in the X-Men books STILL have their powers expect for a handfull (Magneto being one and yeah ... he'll get em back obviously), which was clearly done to give the arc some ramifications.

Then Chris Claremont's X-Men Forever came along, and he came up with a much BETTER explanation for the mutant reduction: Natural selection. Once again, a guy that actually knows what he's doing solves all the problems that Quesada was facing..and no mutant power need be lost at all to tell what is practically the same story of Mutantkind on the brink.

Parker as a clone & Reilly as the real deal for a short while in the Spidey Books

That was the original idea from the beggining. Tom DeFalco wanted Ben in the coustume for up to six months or more, then bring back Peter and MJ once their child was born, reveal Ben was the clone, and then launch him in his own title. Readers could then read a younger, solo Spider-Man (Ben) in one title, and read a married Peter and MJ raising their child in another title, likely up until Peter retired and Ben took over the mantle properly, and was more established with the readers.

Then DeFalco was fired as EIC half-way through The Clone Saga and Marvel, decided to make Ben the REAL Spider-Man. Lo and behold, he gets a BND-style relaunch, fans protest (even though Ben's stories were better written, they were still basic pre-marraige 1980s rehashes as opposed to a fresh approach with a guy who had been an exile on the road for years), the franchise goes into freefall, Peter comes back, and a stroke of accidental genius, so is Norman...Tom fixes any lingering damage...and then he decides to bring back Mayday, make Peter and MJ parents...then Bob Harris kicks him off the title in preparation for a burnt-out Howard Mackie and unmotivated John Byrne.

The rape of Sue Dibny in Identity Crisis

I don't see it as a retcon as it served continuity, it didnt take away anything from it, and even made sense of storylines from the silver age pertaining to identity and villains being reduced to morons when they used to be formiddable, it also explained the political rift between Oliver and Carter Hall.

For all it's great continuity additions however, it's the most msyogonistic thing I have ever read in the last few years...it truley defined "Girls In Refrigerator" even when the villain's motivation was "Don't take your wives for granted". As good as the mystery and motivation was, it's something I don't read much. I hate how women are depicted in comics at times and this was at the height of Didio's own mid-life crisis. EVERY Women in the D.C universe suffered ten-fold back then. At least now he seems to have simmered.

(looks at Black Lantern Sue Dibney)

..Nevermind...

& yeah ... the events of Spidey's BND (which is much softer than the horrid Spider-Man Chapter One by John Byrne in the late 1990s)

Bryne's Chapter One was utter bile, no question (and half of it was, litterally, copy-and-paste), but I wouldnt say a deal with Mephisto (who can't time-travel) is any better.

The only way you could argue that it's "softer" is because of the build-up to OMD (the story where the angel gurantees to Peter he and MJ will overcome any problems in the future and have kids), which tried to "soften the blow" for readers in that "Yes, we know what we're about to do isnt going to last forever, hang around, it's not going to count", and the way it's structured also applies. It's like there just playing in the sandbox whilst there's still some left in the hourglass.

Sure, it's quite ballsy. And admirable in a way, but taking that kind of gamble could easily improve itself into a massive failure as just as well.

It DOES need a "Zero Hour", but one that takes away only the really bad storylines and directions, the ones nobody remembers or cares much for

For example...I'd have had the whole Cival War shitic started by Cap's assasination, not Cap's opposistion to SRA escalating into endangering innocent citizens and making him look like an idiot. Steve would still oppose it, but he'd surrender immediatly in exchange for the amnesty given to any who opposed the act. He's shot dead, all hell breaks loose...nothing be changed other than switching the beggining with the ending.

It's hard to deny that we have reached this point. I think a lot of the current stories are in need of a "restructuring" in order to be appreciated BETTER than they were (let's face it, a lot of the "events" have no quality control and need a retooling if they are to still count), but in cases like Spidey, X-Men, and Fantastic Four...it wouldnt hurt to ignore some stories, especially stories that arent memorable or will hurt them.

To their credit, the amount of diverse continuities Spider-Man has been allocated since Quesada took over has made everything so ambigious that they can get away with murder...and yes, relying on the diversity of your franchise more than a linear path IS ballsy, but any reader that doesnt "get it", it hurts the franchise's flagship title, which will ultimatley affect the character's relevancy in 616 in the same way Carol and Jessica became irrelevant for twenty years until people who liked them got into power.

Which honestly wasnt a bad idea. But yeah, Infinite Crisis took place, and lo and behold, there was the Earth-2 Wonder Woman making an appearance. Putting all that 1940's continuity BACK into play.

Technically, that was to wipe her out of existence so that Hypolotia's oddesey could take over that aspect of continuity "properly" without any baggage from Earth-2. It still consolidated everything back into play though.

Much like the underwhelming, Final Crisis.

About the only thing I didnt like about FC was Tawny The Tiger and the Z-listers saving the day:)

Infinite Crisis left a worse taste in my mouth. I blame that and Didio's idiotic "One Year Later" for the decline in quality on Teen Titans and derailing Wonder Woman...then came Amazons Attack! (BEES...MY GOD!)

[Magneto]

There's not a whole lot of evidence that says it'd be a bad thing, or that it's new to begin with.

Ever since Quesada took over, he has tripled the amount of alternate universes in order to tell iconic stories from every era. Marvel recently announced they were getting "serious" with the previously "iconic" Marvel Adventures line, so there you have it, we have an all-new Marvel timeline being built from the ground up.

And then you have the 161 universe, which seems to be the universe that allows the veteran writers to do whatever the heck they want with the franchises they are best kinown for as if they never left (X-Men Forever is the first title in this universe). If Marvel were perfectly capable of launching two AUs at the time the original was in need of diverse options to draw "inspiration" from, then we could have had these much earlier.

It's all much similar to what began in DC's Silver Age where you had Earth-1, Earth-2, Earth-3, Earth-S, Earth-X, and a Infinite number of other alternate earths. Quesada essentially began following this up at Marvel in the early 2000's with the Ultimate line, and as you have pointed out, branched out even further with the alternate universes. To which I don't have any problem with whatsoever. As it really allows creators to try different things that they may not have had the opportunity to tell by being bogged down in the 616 universe. Much like over at DC when Elseworld stories were just "What If" stories. Now? Some of them such as "Red Son" are actually apart of the newly re-instated DC multiverse.

The Peter, MJ, Feliica, Flash, Harry, and Norman in BND are NOT the same characters they were in 1987 or beyond, nor are they the characters BEFORE then, who ALSO acted more mature than this.

I can definately see your point of view on this. As I am quite aware there are a number of fans (especially the people who have kept up with Spider-Man comics for years) who are less than enthused about Quesada being hell bent on making Parker single again because of the fact that he finds it more exciting for whatever reason. :roll:

Then Chris Claremont's X-Men Forever came along, and he came up with a much BETTER explanation for the mutant reduction: Natural selection. Once again, a guy that actually knows what he's doing solves all the problems that Quesada was facing..and no mutant power need be lost at all to tell what is practically the same story of Mutantkind on the brink.

Certainly sounds like a much improved explanation. Too bad it came years after the fact. :ohwell:

That was the original idea from the beggining. Tom DeFalco wanted Ben in the coustume for up to six months or more, then bring back Peter and MJ once their child was born, reveal Ben was the clone, and then launch him in his own title. Readers could then read a younger, solo Spider-Man (Ben) in one title, and read a married Peter and MJ raising their child in another title, likely up until Peter retired and Ben took over the mantle properly, and was more established with the readers.

Then DeFalco was fired as EIC half-way through The Clone Saga and Marvel, decided to make Ben the REAL Spider-Man. Lo and behold, he gets a BND-style relaunch, fans protest (even though Ben's stories were better written, they were still basic pre-marraige 1980s rehashes as opposed to a fresh approach with a guy who had been an exile on the road for years), the franchise goes into freefall, Peter comes back, and a stroke of accidental genius, so is Norman...Tom fixes any lingering damage...and then he decides to bring back Mayday, make Peter and MJ parents...then Bob Harris kicks him off the title in preparation for a burnt-out Howard Mackie and unmotivated John Byrne.

Jeez. Even more evidence that the shake up that the Clone Saga clearly intended to have were in the best intentions, but spiraled off into a complete and total mess. Thanks for this, BTW. Had no idea what the original intent was with all of that.

It DOES need a "Zero Hour", but one that takes away only the really bad storylines and directions, the ones nobody remembers or cares much for

Basically, I mentioned ZERO HOUR due to the reason it was even brought up into the DC Universe. Continuity became so confusing within the DCU following COIE due to not everyone wanting to play ball, that a "Event" such as ZERO HOUR came about to help clear up what were some pretty confusing discrepancies (like say for instance Hawkman). Which in retrospect, is a shame, being that the intended reboot of the entire DCU following COIE wasnt even 10 years at that point.

Technically, that was to wipe her out of existence so that Hypolotia's oddesey could take over that aspect of continuity "properly" without any baggage from Earth-2. It still consolidated everything back into play though.

In the actual comic, I believe that she (Earth-2 Wonder Woman) was going to be erased, so that yeah Hippolyta could take over that part in continuity, but then there was a number of 'differences' in the TPB. Being one where E-2 Wonder Woman mentions something about "being pulled ... somewhere" before she vanishes. Leaving a question mark on if she is actually erased or not. Hopefully Johns will answer this, as I would assume there would be a reason why he felt this should be inserted into the collected edition.

About the only thing I didnt like about FC was Tawny The Tiger and the Z-listers saving the day:)

Infinite Crisis left a worse taste in my mouth. I blame that and Didio's idiotic "One Year Later" for the decline in quality on Teen Titans and derailing Wonder Woman...then came Amazons Attack! (BEES...MY GOD!)

I felt Infinite Crisis was a fairly solid follow-up to Crisis on Infinite Earths. Yeah, I really enjoyed having the Golden Age E-2 Superman back along with the other Crisis survivors, as well as re-establishing Power Girl as his cousin. The Secret Origins issue going over the turmoil the survivors were going thru in the "paradise dimension" was top notch as well. Sure, I can nit pick some stuff, but overall ... I enjoyed IC quite a bit.

Much more so than Final Crisis.

That's for sure.

[Leo656]

Some of us liked Superman's mullet.

Kinda OT rant given this is mostly a Marvel discussion, but I can't resist throwing my two cents in on a few things that have come up:

I loved Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis, but they were completely different kinds of stories. IC did a great job of making people who hadn't necessarily swamped through decades of DC's continuity feel like they were "in the know", but FC was much more non-linear and you really had to be paying attention to know why certain things and characters were important to the plot. Really heavy on metaphors, symbolism and philosophy rather than the straight-up "DCU vs Darkseid' action story people thought they were gonna get.

For anyone who missed it I actually did a lengthy dissection of Final Crisis in the comics thread a while back, might still be there.

So I get why people didn't dig FC. But I loved it, and after 4 complete read-throughs I think it holds up really well. They just could have done a much better job at streamlining all those cross-over tie-in titles like "Rogues Revenge" and so forth, which, while some were decent in their own right, weren't the "essential" tie-ins they were sold as. They didn't fill in little holes like "Villains United" and the others did for Infinite Crisis. Just extra reading to make more money. Kinda annoying.

Crisis On Infinite Earths... y'know, I must be in the minority, but I honestly don't think that book holds up over time nearly as well as any of its spiritual "sequels". Talk about needing a PHD in DCU to enjoy it. Everything from Zero Hour to IC to even FC was easier to read without already knowing what the heck a "Multiverse" was, and why alternate versions of characters we barely knew being wiped out was supposed to be a big deal. You either got it, or you didn't. Good story, but my favorite part of it was the fact that it set the stage for what I call "the Really good stuff."

But then, I grew up in the 80s. My Superman will always be the one of Byrne and Jurgens. Johns is doing a great job overall, but certain Silver Age stuff (like Krypto) should have never come back, b/c there was a reason it was erased in the first place. And Birthright was just abominable on almost every level, proving that Waid should really have stuck with Flash. "Man Of Steel" is still the book I give to every non-Superman fan to explain who he is and why he's cool, and it hasn't failed yet. That canon should have stuck forever.

On the whole, though, retcons annoy me unless, like Zero Hour and IC, the stories are really, really good. At times they're necessary, but I much prefer when people work within the structures of pre-established continuity to enhance the stories rather than just make up any ol' BS and say "Well, it's different now."

[Brodie]

Why should it be so painful to have to read someone's post? I read your DC rant that has nothing to do with the topic, thinking that there would be some reason for it. You know, like a connection to something relevent, but there wasn't a god damned thing in that entire post that wasn't you just rambling for the sake of trying to make post #66 of this thread the biggest one on the page when people load it up.

[Leo656]

PMing the full reply to that, but long story short;

1) I said it was OT (and if I've ever been ON topic in 7 years, can someone let me know? Cuz it was an accident)

2) I can make random observations about the random observations of others if I choose to

3) Mature people skip things they don't wanna read, they don't read 'em and then bitch about 'em.

[Brodie]

In response to #3...are you saying you want me to skip your post? Cause I'm pretty sure I said in my post that I read the entire thing...

UNLESS you're saying you ignored my post, and wanna bitch about it. Which is what I'm assuming your PM was. I'll let everyone know shortly.

[Leo656]

I'm saying I read it, and dunno why you'd read ANYthing of mine since I'm always verbose, occasionally esoteric, and more often than not I go OT. I won't take it personally if you just skip everything I ever post, I just don't think it's worth hissing at people over. It shouldn't be "painful" to read what someone posts; if it annoys you, just skip it, and keep the catcalls and negativity on the inside, rather than adding more public drama to a board that has far too much of it these days.

Aint mad atcha, nothin' but love fo' ya. Sorry to waste everyone's time... no wait, nevermind, it's what I do.

On-topic: I miss Spider-Man's little armpit webs. They need to bring those back.

[Raph's Girl]

Seems the merger is imminent. Marvel will have a special stockholders meeting on New Years Eve to discuss the deal in further detail:

Marvel Entertainment, Inc. (NYSE: MVL), a global character-based entertainment and licensing company celebrating the 70th anniversary of its founding in 1939, announced today that it has set December 31, 2009 at 9:00 a.m. EST as the date for its special meeting of stockholders. At the special meeting, stockholders will consider and vote on the adoption of the Agreement and Plan of Merger entered into by Marvel and The Walt Disney Company (“Disney”), which provides for a merger in which Marvel will become a wholly-owned subsidiary of Disney. Stockholders who owned Marvel common stock at the close of business on November 23, 2009 are entitled to vote at the special meeting.

Assuming shareholder adoption of the Agreement and Plan of Merger at the special meeting, Marvel anticipates that the merger will be completed on December 31, 2009.

The special meeting will be held at the offices of Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker LLP, 75 East 55th Street, New York, New York.

Important Merger Information and Additional Information:

This communication does not constitute an offer to sell or the solicitation of an offer to buy any securities or a solicitation of any vote or approval. In connection with the proposed transaction, Disney filed a definitive proxy statement/prospectus with the SEC pursuant to Rule 424 on December 2, 2009 (the “Proxy Statement/Prospectus”). Investors are urged to read the Proxy Statement/Prospectus regarding the proposed transaction, because it contains important information. You may obtain copies of all documents filed with the SEC regarding this transaction, including the Proxy Statement/Prospectus, free of charge at the SEC's website, www.sec.gov, or by directing a request to The Walt Disney Company, 500 South Buena Vista Street, Burbank, CA 91521-9722, Attention: Shareholder Services or by directing a request to Marvel’s proxy solicitor, MacKenzie Partners, Inc., 105 Madison Avenue, New York, New York 10016 or by calling Mackenzie Partners, Inc. at (800) 322-2885 (toll free) or (212) 929-5500 (call collect).

Disney, Marvel, their respective directors and certain of their executive officers may be considered participants in the solicitation of proxies in connection with the proposed transaction. Information about the directors and executive officers of Marvel is set forth in the Proxy Statement/Prospectus. Information about the directors and executive officers of Disney is set forth in its definitive proxy statement, which was filed with the SEC on January 16, 2009.

Certain statements in this press release are forward-looking statements, including statements relating to the anticipated time of completion of Marvel’s merger with Disney. These forward-looking statements are subject to certain risks and uncertainties, such as Marvel’s inability to obtain the vote necessary to approve the merger, possible termination of the Agreement and Plan of Merger, potential regulatory impediments to completion of the merger and other risks disclosed in the Proxy Statement/Prospectus.

http://www.mania.com/marvel-disney-deal-imminent_article_119283.html

[Raph's Girl]

Aaaand SOLD! Marvel shareholders agreed to the purchase by Disney!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091231/ap_en_ot/us_disney_marvel_entertainment