I guess there's no stopping it...

[Reznorite420]

Yep, it looks like we (the US) are going to war with Iraq. I knew this dreaded day would come, and I've felt this way ever since before the 9/11 attacks. In a way, I called this sort of outcome the "second fall of Rome". Look at it this way: the US is the modern-day world power, just as Rome was in its days. It fell because of its own arrogance and lack of respect for other worlds, hence the barbarians were able to attack them without warning. I fear that Iraq represents the barbarians in this case.

Alright, I'll admit that I'm only thinking worst-case scenario when I'm thinkng that we might face a nuclear diaster here, but hey, it can't get any worse than worst-case...

I can't exactly think about what to write right now (I'm watching Wolf Blitzer Reports right now...catch you later, feel free to post your thoughts on this, especially you US people)...

[One Radical Dude]

The U.S. needs to do this. It's time for Saddam's regime to go down. Again, let me repeat this....no, this war isn't ONLY about oil. It's only a part of the reason. Iraq needs to be liberated, a government and a madman who gasses their own people need to be taken out. I believe this is a step in the right direction. The President has tried to do this peacefully, and the 'Dipstick Democrats', such as Daschle and Kerry, are whining and crying. Hey, it was these guys that told the President to go to the UN. Hey, it didn't work. Saddam has been given enough time....too much time. This war is expected to last only a few weeks, but will it? We'll have to wait and find out.

[Eye of Sarnath]

I wonder sometimes about people...

There is nothing that needs to be done, only things that should be done. I wonder if you people know what you're talking about.

As of right now, I'd guess not.

[The Defibrillator]

The U.S. needs to do this. It's time for Saddam's regime to go down. Again, let me repeat this....no, this war isn't ONLY about oil. It's only a part of the reason. Iraq needs to be liberated, a government and a madman who gasses their own people need to be taken out. I believe this is a step in the right direction. The President has tried to do this peacefully, and the 'Dipstick Democrats', such as Daschle and Kerry, are whining and crying. Hey, it was these guys that told the President to go to the UN. Hey, it didn't work. Saddam has been given enough time....too much time. This war is expected to last only a few weeks, but will it? We'll have to wait and find out.

dude, you spoke my mind perfectly. right on! I donno whats up with bananaman, but this HAS to be done. for 12 yrs he's been killing people and wreakin havoc in the middle east as well as other places. We've tried diplomacy and It DIDN'T WORK!! he didnt destroy his weapons like we asked.

So please don't give me this "I want peace!" crap!. everyone wants peace! that's why we're doing this!

[Shadow]

Yep, it looks like we (the US) are going to war with Iraq. I knew this dreaded day would come, and I've felt this way ever since before the 9/11 attacks. In a way, I called this sort of outcome the "second fall of Rome". Look at it this way: the US is the modern-day world power, just as Rome was in its days. It fell because of its own arrogance and lack of respect for other worlds, hence the barbarians were able to attack them without warning. I fear that Iraq represents the barbarians in this case.

Alright, I'll admit that I'm only thinking worst-case scenario when I'm thinkng that we might face a nuclear diaster here, but hey, it can't get any worse than worst-case...

I can't exactly think about what to write right now (I'm watching Wolf Blitzer Reports right now...catch you later, feel free to post your thoughts on this, especially you US people)...

You said we gave Iraq no warning? NO WARNING? :roll:

It isn't about use being a world power. We have a responsibility to be a protector of peace and of peoples. Some one must stands up to the stuborn and arrigant Sadam and free the people that are enslaved under his power... If we don't protect an enslaved culture then who will??

[That Matt Guy]

I imagine it will be a replay of the first Gulf War as far as the Iraqi army is concerned: mass defection by the Iraqi troops. I am sure most of the Iraqi military has been forced to fight for Saddam, and will gladly surrender when given the opportunity.

[Reznorite420]

Shadow: Read my post again. I never said anything about us giving Iraq any warnings. I merely made a comparison (fallacious or not), and in fact what I said was that WE might be attacked without warning.

The point in that comparison was that the US, like Rome during its time, is too arrogant for its own good and its citizens are brainwashed into thinking that the US ways are the only right ways. To be blunt, they're not. A lot of these right-winged conservatives I've been talking to at my school lately are always griping about how they are ingrateful to our aid and whatnot. I don't think they're being ingrates; I believe they KNOW that it's not their business to meddle in the affairs of other cultures/countries. That's the main reason why there's so much resentment towards the US; we just don't know when to keep our noses out of others' business.

That being said, I should add that maybe reason why the US is in such economic shambles and national debt right now is NOT because of the WTC attack, NOT because of Democrats/Liberals (it's actually the other side that's to blame), but because we've been sending so much of our money and supplies to other countries that quite frankly have little to no significance in our world and thus leaving less for us to use at home! I say let a country solve its own problems, and if it's not able too, well, that's what it gets for not being on top of things. If a country has to suddenly form a command economy to get back on its feet (figuratively speaking), then so be it. That's what Russia had to do to get out of the poor economic state it was in during the late 19th to early 20th century.

I know all of that sounds selfish, but you have to admit that there are times where you have to put yourself first. Anybody who doubts this, you'll be thinking differently the day our economy collapses to the point of total chaos where people are willing to kill anybody in their path just for a loaf of bread. Again, fall of Rome...

In any case, when this all comes to an end I hope that no weapons of mass destruction are found in Bagdhad (sp) or anywhere in Iraq so that Bush and the rest of the GOP cabinet will look even more like idiots than they already are (anybody on here that's GOP-loyal, don't take that personally). I just want the outcome of this "war" to be a slap in the face to Bush and end up destroying any chance he has of winning the election next year. Good night.

[Karpo_007]

Rez has a good point. All geat empires have fallen at some point. Like rome, And Germany. Sometime it will happen to the US, but that might take hundred of years. I think that the war will be a short one.

[Reznorite420]

PS: I don't need any PMs sent to me on this topic. I'm not saying a name as to who gave it to me, you know who you are. Just so you know, I didn't read it...

[GK Punk]

as much as I REALLY HATE Posting something like this on a Message board, I totally agree with Rez... I try to avoid posting on topics like this, because it always leads to a flame war.

Anyways, as I said...

I've had many discussions with friends, and even my brother that ended up going the same direction of everything Rez said, We are the new rome. But I do hope this is just a small skirmish that will be over in just a few short weeks or months, and I really hope this dosn't escalate in to a complete world war, which is entirely possible.

I'm just glad my health would prevent me from getting drafted if it ever came to that...

[HorseTechie]

It's wild to imagine we are at war again, but I guess since we (the US) gone through so many other wars without too much damage, I don't really feel worried. Even after the big slap in the face that was 9-11... I still don't feel reason to be worried. Especially since it seems to be staying over there in the Middle East... and that they said most of the civilians have left Baghdad too.

Grunger Kittie... don't worry. Us mods and admins will keep an eye on this thread and like topics to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. If it does, we might have to ban politcal/war topics from here for the time being. (I've sen them do this on other fourms).

[Jade Green]

In Revilations (don't ask me where, please, I cannot remember) it talks about the fall of the second roman empire; it also speaks of several nations becoming one.

If we are the Second Roman empire, then indeed we will someday fall; if we are not, then we will someday not be the superpower of the world. (If that makes any sense).

As for several nations becoming one, take a look at Europe and how they've all become one: The Eurodollar.

Of course, this all could be mere coincidence and we are years away from seeng anything like what Revilations really speaks of so don't get angry with me.

[GK Punk]

Horse Techie: That's cool, atleast you guys'll prevent this from getting to out of hand then...

Jade Green: That's similar to what I was thinking, the EU is like the new US, and I know I am no the only one to think that, as Armstrong And Ghetty (local early AM news show) began talking about that aswell... That's the only thing that has me worried is that we very well could be the new Roam.

[Nturtle]

This is a very difficult subject.

This war is not righeous, to bomb a city of 5 million people is not what I would call righeous at all. The oil of course is the main goal, Bush has friends and stocks in the oil buisness you know.
It took Donald Rumsfeld only 2 hours after 9/11 to start think of turning the murder of those on the planes, in the Pentagon and World Trade Center into a war with Iraq.
Saddam Hussein is a dictator, a brutal one too. But after we have bombed Iraq what will we do? What about Syria? Saudi Arabia? Sudan? The Republic of Congo? Zimbabwe? North Korea?
Should we over run all these places too? They all have cruel dictators, not all armed by the USA in the 1980s like Iraq, but they are dictatorships.
In 2 years President Bush has turned everything around, we are in a deficit, the economy has gone down the tubes, the majority of thee world hates us, the UN's credibility and purpose are fading, we are the aggressors in war, our closest alies hate us.
This war will bring more attacks on the US, in all forms including terrorist attacks, already there is evidence that the number of Al-Qaeda recruits is increasing, a scary thought indeed.
The United States which has pushed for globalization so long just tore down its own system.

[That Matt Guy]

If Saddam's forces managed to repell our attack and drive us out of the country, it would be the greatest upset in military history. I don't see that happening.

[Kameko]

Let me start out by saying that I apologize if I have trouble making myself clear. This is a difficult thing to talk about, and it is difficult to put what I wish to say into words. This is also the only post I plan to make on this topic, unless it is in reply to a post that directly addresses me. I know that no matter what I say, everyone will hold to thier own opinions and beliefs, and I can't change that, and I don't plan on trying. Now, for my opinion on this whole situation:

************************************************** ***********

I am backing Bush fully, and I think that we're doing the right thing by taking out this madman. Someone has to stop him, and we have the means, and more than enough of a motive (9/11) by which to do it. And don't you dare try to claim that Saddam had nothing to do with the tragedy of 9/11. His regime has trained countless terrorists, including terrorists with ties to Al-Qaeda.

************************************************** ***********

To those of you who are protesting this war, I have this to say to you:

You say that you are against the war for humanitarian reasons. You fear for the lives of our military men and women. People who join the military know going in that there is a chance that we could go to war while they serving thier country, and they know that thier lives could be put at risk to defend our country and our world.

Then you say, 'But innocent Iraquis could be killed!'

So what you're saying is that we should allow this man, this regime, that gases, tortures, starves, and all-around abuses thier own people -- we should allow this to go on? This man who has weapons of mass destruction, who wouldn't hesitate for a moment to hit us with them, and really any other country in the world, including his own -- we're supposed to let him remain in power? You would rather that thousands suffer and die by terroristic acts than to go to war to end this threat and possibly lose a few lives in the process? Better thousands to die by our enemies hand than to for a few to die in the effort to cut that hand off?

Get real. We're doing this to PREVENT the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands -- or even millions, of innocent people. Yes, it's possible, and even likely, that some people will lose thier lives in this process. But to save so many more lives, it is worth it.

It is precisely for humanitarian reasons that we are going to war.



(*Edited for clarification)

[Karpo_007]

I have heard rumors that US might have Weapons of mass destruction too... :roll:

Yes, Saddam is a dictator, but no one can deny, that it is the oil that motivates this war. If and when attack would be neccesary, it should have UN supporting it. If it's not, the war is Illegal. This shows that when one nation grows strong enough, it can do what ever it wants. Sma e happened with Nazi Germany. Wolrd watched Hitler's actions for awhile, but he crossed the line ivading Poland.

Imnot saying that what US is doing can be compared, atleast not yet. But like many have said, right now there is no real justification for this war.

[The Defibrillator]

Let me start out by saying that I apologize if I have trouble making myself clear. This is a difficult thing to talk about, and it is difficult to put what I wish to say into words.

************************************************** ***********

I am backing Bush fully, and I think that we're doing the right thing by taking out this madman. Someone has to stop him, and we have the means, and more than enough of a motive (9/11) by which to do it. And don't you dare try to claim that Saddam had nothing to do with the tragedy of 9/11. His regime has trained countless terrorists, including terrorists with ties to Al-Qaeda.

************************************************** ***********

To those of you who are protesting this war, I have this to say to you:

You say that you are against the war for humanitarian reasons. You fear for the lives of our military men and women. People who join the military know going in that there is a chance that we could go to war while they serving thier country, and they know that thier lives could be put at risk to defend our country and our world.

Then you say, 'But innocent Iraquis could be killed!'

So what you're saying is that we should allow this man, this regime, that gases, tortures, starves, and all-around abuses thier own people -- we should allow this to go on? This man who has weapons of mass destruction, who wouldn't hesitate for a moment to hit us with them, and really any other country in the world, including his own -- we're supposed to let him remain in power? You would rather that thousands suffer and die by terroristic acts than to go to war to end this threat and possibly lose a few lives in the process? Better thousands to die by our enemies hand than to for a few to die in the effort to cut that hand off?

Get real. We're doing this to PREVENT the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands -- or even millions, of innocent people. Yes, it's possible, and even likely, that some people will lose thier lives in this process. But to save so many more lives, it is worth it.

It is precisely for humanitarian reasons that we are going to war.

word to Kameko!! Exactly my thoughts!! I'm also backing Bush 100% on this one, and I still don't see why so many people hate him. Since Kameko said most of what I was thinking, I don't really have anything to add.

[One Radical Dude]

Nturtle, I disagree that President Bush had anything to do with decline of the economy. The economy began to decline while former President Clinton was in his last year or so in office. He also had a chance to get bin Laden, but he did nothing.

And Kameko, great statement. I understand how difficult it is to say those things, believe me...even I have trouble speaking up.

[That Matt Guy]

Well the US is the only country to have ever used nukes in a war, but I doubt that's what will happen with Iraq. And the UN really isn't that important, I can see US actually leaving the UN sometime in the next 10 years. And I think the world woke up to Hitler after the Blitzkrieg steam rolled into France.

[Kid Icarus]

Let me start out by saying that I apologize if I have trouble making myself clear. This is a difficult thing to talk about, and it is difficult to put what I wish to say into words.

************************************************** ***********

I am backing Bush fully, and I think that we're doing the right thing by taking out this madman. Someone has to stop him, and we have the means, and more than enough of a motive (9/11) by which to do it. And don't you dare try to claim that Saddam had nothing to do with the tragedy of 9/11. His regime has trained countless terrorists, including terrorists with ties to Al-Qaeda.
And so did our government in the mid 80's. Infact, we even gave Saddam the resources to create the weapons he now has. The CIA also trained Bin Laden to help us attack the Soviet Union. Just because we trained them dosn't mean we are responsible for their choices. The same thing applies for Iraq and Saddam.


************************************************** ***********

To those of you who are protesting this war, I have this to say to you:

You say that you are against the war for humanitarian reasons. You fear for the lives of our military men and women. People who join the military know going in that there is a chance that we could go to war while they serving thier country, and they know that thier lives could be put at risk to defend our country and our world.

Then you say, 'But innocent Iraquis could be killed!'

So what you're saying is that we should allow this man, this regime, that gases, tortures, starves, and all-around abuses thier own people -- we should allow this to go on? This man who has weapons of mass destruction, who wouldn't hesitate for a moment to hit us with them, and really any other country in the world, including his own -- we're supposed to let him remain in power? You would rather that thousands suffer and die by terroristic acts than to go to war to end this threat and possibly lose a few lives in the process? Better thousands to die by our enemies hand than to for a few to die in the effort to cut that hand off?

Get real. We're doing this to PREVENT the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands -- or even millions, of innocent people. Yes, it's possible, and even likely, that some people will lose thier lives in this process. But to save so many more lives, it is worth it.

It is precisely for humanitarian reasons that we are going to war.

I am against the war because there are bigger targets that we should be dealing with. North Korea, for example, poses a much larger threat. People there live in Holocaust like conditions, and have been for years. Its leader (I cannot remember his name.) has Labor Camps much like those found under Nazi Germanys controll in WW2.

We should also look in to South Africa, where more people die in one day than in the entire WTC attacks. Where tribal war fare has been going on for years, and where its leaders are restricting the rights of several groups (I am not sure exactaly which groups, as I haven't done near enough research on this).

I am also against the war because I feel all peaceful solutions were not explored fully. The U.N. Inspectors should have been allowed to finish what they started. Bush should also have the suppport of the U.N. security council behind him. If Iraq and Saddam are as big of a threat as they keep saying, why diden't they UN give the go ahead for war?

I don't want to get in to this though. Everyone has a right to believe what they want, and no one has the right to say any one elses opinion is lesser than theirs.

The war is going to happen no matter how much screaming and kicking my side does, and were going to keep screaming and kicking no matter what the pro-war side does.

[Leo656]

I really try not to get involved politically. I stay away from the news. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. However, since everyone else has checked in with their opinions then I guess I will too.

First let me say that this doesn't surprise me. Several of my friends in the army have been telling me for years now that a war with Iraq was just around the corner. The military's been prepared for this since Clinton was in office, so I don't blame Bush for this. He's doing what he thinks is right. Personally, I've always said that we let Desert Storm slide too easily. We should have taken care of business the first time; if we had we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion right now.

Secondly, I refuse to listen to any arguments against the war for "humanitarian reasons". I believe that humanity is, by nature, greedy and selfish and confrontational, and that war is the natural order of life. Prehistoric man didn't settle their debates by sitting down and talking, they settled them by kicking the s*** out of each other. "But we live in more civilized times", some are gonna say. I say: stop kidding yourselves. If human beings were so civilized, then there wouldn't be any war at all, anywhere, period. It's nice to dream about, but it aint gonna happen.

I support Bush for taking a stand regardless of his supposed personal reasons. It takes guts to be the aggressor in war. Strike first, and you've already won half the battle. We all know, each and every single one of us, that another war with Iraq was simply a matter of time. For once I'm glad that we didn't just sit back and wait to be attacked like we usually do.

As for most of the world hating the U.S., let 'em. I say a lot of 'em would probably hate us more if we didn't hold their damn hands so much. Personally, I wouldn't mind if we stopped aiding other countries entirely. No food, no money, no aid, nothing. They hate us? Then let 'em stand on their own two feet without any help from us whatsoever. They want us to butt out of other countries' business, it'd be interesting to see what would happen if we did just that.

Oh wait, we did do that once. I think I saw an old film about a country that ran entirely without U.S. interference. And people got tortured and killed by the millions while the U.S, looked the other way. It was a little hard to understand though; the narration was in German.

I mean, look, let's be realistic. You show me the people with the guns, the land, the money and the weapons, and I'll show you the people in charge.

As for all that stuff about Revelations, the fall of the "second Roman Empire", all that... I don't really know what to say because I don't believe in the Bible. I do agree that we are an incredibly arrogant, elitist society, but that's what happens when the largest damage done to your country in over 200 years added up to 3000 people and two buildings. Personally, I don't think anything is gonna happen to us for a long, long time. We aren't the strongest country in the world like the Yankees are the best team in baseball (oh God it hurts to say that... God I hate the Yankees). No, we're the strongest country in the world like the Yankees playing against a Little League team.

I support pretty much everything Kameko said. Again, I'm not one of the people that watches the news and scours the search engines looking for articles about the war and every single person that's involved with it. So if that makes my opinions "uniformed" or "worthless", well, then, that's your prerogative. I was never good in school; I just cite common sense.

[Tokka-B]

And that is exactly how both the Romans and Germans were, if used in that analogy.

I am against the war, but it isn't only humanitarian reasons, it is the whole concept, the situation in which we are in, how it is being done, the price we pay, (lives and the $ that we don't have since we are in such a huge deficit), etc...the list can go on. The fact is that people are perverse, but that doesn't mean we should just say oh because of that war is now a part of society, I think it shouldn't be. With all the technological advances and things in the past 100 years, war shouldn't even be taking into consideration, we advance by means of peace and understanding, not all out aggression. We act as the big kids on the block and express it in that elitest way, it is possible to be the greatest nation in other ways too you know. Wow, we have the biggest army, that says a lot, such as how we would resort to violence with anyone who disagrees with us.

Ok Leo, lets see what would happen if we got no help from any other nation. After the war we will be begging every country to help us rebuild, we will be begging the UN with their order and such. The dollar will be the new penny, no imports from other countries, as well as export money we get for selling things. No more industry, as all of our manufacturing factories are located in foreign countries.....all the while they trade and live in peace with each other, oh heck they may even decide to form a coaltion and take over this land. That is one of the most close-minded things I have heard so far, most extreme conservatives at least agree with foreign relations. Wait a minute, wouldn't we then get attacked by terrorists on a monthly basis? Bingo, why do you think other countries don't get attacked and bashed as much as us? The U.S weakness is that they don't know how to stop terror, so what is to stop foreign countries from forming terrorist groups and splitting this nation apart when they know we don't care for them? You say that we help them so much, yet that is a good thing, why stop just by a petty disagreement? In doing that we make allies, but we don't control their souls like you think, instead we get a great reputation in exchange. Countries disagree because it is by their best interest, not because they hate us, the reason they hate us is because of what you were just saying, this isolation type atitude is no good in today's world Leo, so face the facts.

[Leo656]

You don't quite get what I meant, but that's ok. I probably didn't state it that well.

I'm NOT in favor of isolationism. It didn't work before WWII and it can't work now. It's been proven time and again that it just doesn't work.

What I was saying was a snide jab at all the people that say "America should butt out of other countries' affairs". It goes both ways is what I'm saying. Either we "butt in," or we stay out of international affairs entirely, which as you said would be a disaster. My point was that we CAN'T just "mind our own business", because that wouldn't be in the best interests of us OR the countries we try and help.

And I maintain that there will never, ever, EVER be peace, because humankind is corrupt. It's nothing more than a good idea, something people say "man, wouldn't it be nice if..." Maybe I'm wrong, I mean I hope I am, everybody wants peace. I'm just a cynical jaded bastard who thinks humanity will destroy itself sooner rather than later.

It's just the natural order of nature. 99% of all the species that ever existed on this planet are dead; it's scientific fact. Human beings, for all our money and "intelligence" and wars and hubris are just another species, and when the planet gets tired of us it'll wipe us out the same way it did the dinosaurs.

Now that I've clarified my argument, you can feel free to agree or disagree. And that's fine. Everybody has their own opinion.

[Leo656]

I forgot to mention that I don't think the money matters of the war really matters. We don't stand to lose that much. In fact, wars historically help the economy. I'd go out and invest in gunpowder if I had anything to invest. As for the defecit, the amount of money does not physically exist in the world to get this country out of debt. That's how we can still afford to give monetary aid to so many other countries. The debt only exists on paper.

[Donatello02]

If you look at the tax cut, the supposed funds for this war are nonexistant. our economy is already doing bad, but this. This will surely be it's demise.

Personally, I believe this war is needless to say, stupid. I disagree with the president, and I disagree with our goverment. I'd go into detail into why, but I'd just start a big flame war. As for the reasons behind this war. People say it's because this man and the country is a threat. In my opinion, this country is a bigger threat to anyone else then Iraq will ever be. People also say Saddam is a cruel dictator that needs to be stopped because he oppresses and kills his own people. It's funny, because if we really wanted to do the just, right thing and take out all dictator and oppressors, we would have done so. Countries like Cuba and Haiti and Indonesia have oppressive goverments and dictators, torturing and killing their own people, yet we sit here idly by, until one of these countries just so happens to have a needed commodity, like oil for example. Then we just dive in, take charge, and start a war. It's very hypocritical if you ask me. Many of the things our goverment does is just that. The only difference between the people who don't agree with me and the ones that do are that a large percentage of the population only excepts what it's goverment tell them, and what their presidents assures them. Anything that doesn't reach the media, therefore never reaches us, and thus becomes nothing more then mere opinions, when in fact they are true. Some say that ignorance is bliss though, that even if our goverment is built on hypocrisy and lies, that it's better to live here, smile, and just agree with everything. But ignorance is not bliss, ignorance is like a disease. It's spreads between vasts amounts of people, showing no differences between race, creed, or color. Ignorance is the main foundation of what is mostly wrong and unjust in this world today. That's all I have to say. Thanks.

[Leo656]

It's no secret that this country is full of hypocrites. That's ALWAYS been the case. This country was founded by slave-owners who wanted to be free. Doesn't get much more hypocritical than that.

Are we a war-like country? Of course we are, we were birthed out of a war. It would be foolish to think that anything is suddenly gonna change.

Does it really, *really* matter what the people think? Hell no, and it never has. The elected officials in this country aren't out for us, make no mistake. Democrat, Republican, it's all a bunch of billionaires pursuing their own agendas. That's why there are "career politicians" that dominate and why it's next to impossible for a third-party candidate to do well.

It doesn't really matter if Bush is only going to war to satisfy his own agenda. You can't say conclusively that Gore wouldn't have done the same thing for different reasons. It's all about agendas, people, that's what politics is about.

And the fact is that we really *don't* get most of our oil from Iraq, but regardless, people are going to claim that oil is the sole purpose. Ah well, I'm sure it'll be put to good use.

I'm not saying that this country, it's leaders, or its policies are perfect. But I honestly believe that what we have here is better than it is anywhere else. Except maybe Canada. They have better beer, money, and donuts. All I am saying is that if we're at war, and we are, it's better to be on the winning team rather than make a lot of noise that won't amount to much. This isn't a people's government anymore and hasn't been for a long, long time. Unlike some, I'm just realistic about it and can deal with it.

[Donatello02]

Exactly, but most people either don't believe, over look, or plain out deny this. They truly belief their country is based on just, right reasons. If they only knew. I'm moving to Canada. Canada owns.

[Tokka-B]

If there is no noise, everyone will think that the war is right and everyone will have the same opinion, if that is the case, then we will never learn. The U.S government IS based on the people because we have the right to vote for our selected candidate for senate and they vote on issues we have a say in. If this government didn't care for it's people, which the current one isn't doing at all, then we should be the ones getting a new regime. We have the highest homeless rate out of any country and most are in D.C next to Bush who is sitting there smokin his cigar, while people next to them couldn't afford one or will die of hunger, so in a sense we are torturing our own people. So what to do about this.....Hmmm, maybe Bush's brilliant tax cuts might help, that way the poor save 5 bucks a month and they can get that nice cigar like ol Georgie.

Anywho, this is not only about oil, it is about revenge from ol daddy. The reason why we are not after other countries? The terrorist attack was by arabs, so we are forced to believe that the arab countries should pay, being the pathetic society we are. If this was by a spanish dude it would be cuba, asian- north korea, it is simple. Not right of course, but hey, it is the American way. :roll:

[That Matt Guy]

Well I'm sure every country's governments are full of backstabbers and hypocrites working on their own angendas, not just the US Gov.

[Leo656]

I love America. But Canada's like cornbread...

Aint NUTTIN wrong with THAT! :D

[GK Punk]

I love America. But Canada's like cornbread...

Aint NUTTIN wrong with THAT! :D

Ain't worth shootin' somebody 'cause they smudge your puma...

Check this out, I found this on a Japanese Cosplay website...
http://www.cyberjunk.jp/coscos/cgi-bin/box/img20030320193719.jpg

Well I guess we know what general feeling there is

[That Matt Guy]

Check this out, I found this on a Japanese Cosplay website...
http://www.cyberjunk.jp/coscos/cgi-bin/box/img20030320193719.jpg

Well I guess we know what general feeling there is

That coming from a country where war criminals are still honored as soldiers. And you wonder why I call them Japs.

[One Radical Dude]

http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/wm217.cfm

Interesting info you should scope out.

[Nickokapo]

Well after reading this whole thread and watching the news for the last 3 days i feel like posting my opinion, which will pale in comparision to the other ones mainly because i know jack sh*t about politics (too complex :P and besides, my country already has enough problems, i could also catch up with the problems of the other countries but it doesnt exactly cheer me up ;) so if you're surprised i didnt see this war coming 'till like a week, now you know why :roll: )
At first i thought bush just wanted the oil but after reading this i realized saddam was torturing his people...i still think bush is interested in the oil but if this war will lead to the freedom of the irak people then i dont think this war will be so bad, im just concerned about civilians, i don't want 'em to die, they're innocent, they don't have to, they don't have the fault of being on war.
As for the cosplay pic, it aint working :ohwell:

[Donatello02]

http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/wm217.cfm

Interesting info you should scope out.

Yes, it is interesting how France and those other countries *GASP* are lookin out for their own interest! Dude, that doesn't matter. It proves nothing. The US Goverment, it's politicians, it's president...they aren't out to better the world. or save innocent oppressed civilians, or to take out all evil rogue dictators, no they are not. They are out for their own interests, wether you like it or not. Period.

[Tokka-B]

Amen to the truth.

[Machias Banshee]

(excellently said, Kameko... ;) )

My brother might be getting sent off to Korea soon...I have friends from everywhere that are enlisted. It worries me what will happen. So many countries are arguing over this. I wish the arguing and slandering would stop...

All i will say in this subject, Is that no matter what, My heart will be in support of all our troops, no matter who they are, no matter where they go.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
:D :goofygri: :goofygri: :D :goofygri: :goofygri: :D
:D :goofygri: :goofygri: :goofygri: :goofygri: :goofygri: :D
:D :D :goofygri: :goofygri: :goofygri: :D :D
:D :D :D :goofygri: :D :D :D
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[HorseTechie]

I don't want to get into this battle of For and Agianst... but I am not worried about this war.

War happens. Life happens. Peace Happens. Life Happens. It's just the cycle of nature to keep the balance. But I'm not one to get very deep in political matters aside from what I hear on the evening world news.

I do think it's stupid for people to be protesting against the war now. It's already STARTED. What they do seems futile now, like a child crying after skinning his knee. Really makes me wanna smack my head whe the teens (looking for a good excuse to get out of school, more likely) have signs with the Peace symbol looking like a freaking Mercedes sign. They don't even know what a peace sign looks like! :lol:

So yeah.. I'm glad we got this war going. Maybe for once something will come out of this to release the pressure from this building conflict with the Middle East. Well, a settlement for at least a decade or so until another conflict boils up.

I support Bush, and I support our troops. I have faith that they will bring us the Peace we want back again. Correct me if I'm wrong, I beleive I also heard on the news how many immigrants who fled Iraq to come here, don't want to go back there until Saddam is out. Makes sense to me. But then, I was thinking "WTF?" for a bit when ont he news they also said the US had first helped support Saddam's cause before he became the big PITA that he is now. Now how's that for biting that hand that feeds ya? :evil:

[Tokka-B]

So you are saying we NEED war to balance out the peace in this world? I don't really see the logic in that, oh well.

People protest to express their viewpoint and to keep it alive. Most of us know that the war will happen but we want others to know that there are some who don't like war and would prefer peace. If we kill off the idea of peace this soon, the Bush administration will think this was a good idea and possibly use it again. Although I do agree that it is really annoying how people will skip school to protest if they just want to get out of school for a day, that is just stupid.

I had yet to see the threat in the Middle East so a war to me would start a threat, not stop one.

Yes, we did in fact support Saddam's cause in the Iran/Iraq war which is enough of a reason for them to have wmd. But also when he was attacking countries, we didn't even mind because it was just 2 foreign countries getting rid of one another, an elitest attitude which would get us in trouble 15 years from then. I don't know if there are any hopes left, except for less than 10 terrorist attacks within the next decade. :(

[HorseTechie]

Yeah, without war, there will be no understanding of peace. Like if there was no dark, we would not have an understanding of light. :evilgrin:

Of course, on a lighter note. If we did not participate in real life war in some way, then how can we fully appreiciate fictional war, like in Lord of the Rings? Or Star Wars? Or even real-life based movies like Braveheart and Saving Private Ryan?

Sure... this is reality, and people are dying out there, but it is all in the hopes of earning freedom for those willing it in the future.

*decides to shut up now before she starts quoting Braveheart*

[That Matt Guy]

Has anyone heard anything about those protesters who were trying to break into an airforce base and "shut it down"? Morons. I hope the guards at the base shoot them.

[Tokka-B]

Well I am going to ignore that sick comment from matt. :roll:

Anyway, yes you need dark to know what light is, but the point is, there have been so many wars in history that we know what they are and how to fictionally operate them, but why is this even a reason to go to war? :roll:

Also 500 people were ARRESTED for protesting against the war in California, I think we are getting rid of the wrong regime, our own is the one taking away freedom. :roll:

[That Matt Guy]

Well I am going to ignore that sick comment from matt. :roll:

First of all, breaking into an air force base to shut it down is not protesting for peace, it's a crime. Second, the MP at the base have the right to shoot anyone who forcefully enters a base. I know it's a bit extreme but there is a big difference between civial disobedience and breaking a federal law.

[Tokka-B]

I am saying the comment is sick for the shooting part, as I don't support capital punishment. But yes, that was a crime, they can block roads and stuff, but when you try to shut down something you are not protesting anymore...

[One Radical Dude]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=540&u=/ap/20030321/ap_on_re_mi_ea/war_conquered_town_2&printer=1

This is definitely something I was happy to see. If you saw the news earlier, they showed residents in a southern Iraqi town of Safwan celebrating, a picture of Saddam was removed, and a Iraqi citizen beat Saddam's face (of the poster) a few times with a shoe.

[HorseTechie]

Hee...

Yes, I would rather we go on with the war, and hopefully end the conflicts between them and us once and for all. It's a lot nicer than living in fear of another horrid terrorist attack, if not getting a superbowl stadium nuked or something. :dead:

And hopefully, this will stay as a war between them and us, and not turn into World War 3. That, I don't want... and in a strange way, I'm relieved that France and Germany are not in on it.

[Tokka-B]

Actually we have more of a chance of having terrorist attacks because of the war.

People are happy because they don't want to die from our troops. If they truly didn't like the conditions they were living in, they would have actually asked for our help, but all I see is protests in the middle east, This rebuilding process will not work I am afraid.

The end does not justify the means.

[Voltron]

If we are attacked by terrorists, we have troops swarming the entire middle east. America is nothing but freedom, people. You don't like freedom? then kill yourself. Thank you.

[Tokka-B]

I love freedom, hence why I have stated my own opinions.

[That Matt Guy]

Just as I suspected, entire Iraqi army divisions are surrendering without a fight. And who can blame them? Most of them were armed w/ Kalashnikov rifles and other out dated Soviet weapons.

[Tokka-B]

Yea, all these outdated weapons that seem to scare arrogant Bush. :lol:

[Donatello02]

What's with the ignorant idea that all terrorists are from the middle east?

[Tokka-B]

I don't know, but it apparently is the only reason to go to war with Iraq that the republicans come up with. I grew up in the Middle East, I might have to flee this country before they send me to a concentration camp or something, heck my town even forbids muslims to practice at mosques... :roll:

[That Matt Guy]

Yea, all these outdated weapons that seem to scare arrogant Bush. :lol:

:lol: At one time Iraq had the 4th largest and most well equipped army on earth, now they just have 1960s era rifles and equipment. As far as the Iraqi soldiers are concerned, I really do feel sorry for them.

[Tokka-B]

Yea, ironic how we are attacking Iraq now when they have no weapons that can harm us, it is a shame what this country has come to. But all empires have fallen, Rome, German, Britain, etc....guess it is our turn

[That Matt Guy]

Well I wouldn't say this war is America's downfall as a world power, but it sure isn't helping our image overseas.

[Tokka-B]

Heh, what do you know, some American troop just attacked his own division with a grenade and injured like 15 people.... :roll:

[Voltron]

Let me start out by saying that I apologize if I have trouble making myself clear. This is a difficult thing to talk about, and it is difficult to put what I wish to say into words. This is also the only post I plan to make on this topic, unless it is in reply to a post that directly addresses me. I know that no matter what I say, everyone will hold to thier own opinions and beliefs, and I can't change that, and I don't plan on trying. Now, for my opinion on this whole situation:

************************************************** ***********

I am backing Bush fully, and I think that we're doing the right thing by taking out this madman. Someone has to stop him, and we have the means, and more than enough of a motive (9/11) by which to do it. And don't you dare try to claim that Saddam had nothing to do with the tragedy of 9/11. His regime has trained countless terrorists, including terrorists with ties to Al-Qaeda.

************************************************** ***********

To those of you who are protesting this war, I have this to say to you:

You say that you are against the war for humanitarian reasons. You fear for the lives of our military men and women. People who join the military know going in that there is a chance that we could go to war while they serving thier country, and they know that thier lives could be put at risk to defend our country and our world.

Then you say, 'But innocent Iraquis could be killed!'

So what you're saying is that we should allow this man, this regime, that gases, tortures, starves, and all-around abuses thier own people -- we should allow this to go on? This man who has weapons of mass destruction, who wouldn't hesitate for a moment to hit us with them, and really any other country in the world, including his own -- we're supposed to let him remain in power? You would rather that thousands suffer and die by terroristic acts than to go to war to end this threat and possibly lose a few lives in the process? Better thousands to die by our enemies hand than to for a few to die in the effort to cut that hand off?

Get real. We're doing this to PREVENT the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands -- or even millions, of innocent people. Yes, it's possible, and even likely, that some people will lose thier lives in this process. But to save so many more lives, it is worth it.

It is precisely for humanitarian reasons that we are going to war.



(*Edited for clarification)

You're my hero....

[That Matt Guy]

Heh, what do you know, some American troop just attacked his own division with a grenade and injured like 15 people.... :roll:

Friendly fire sucks.

[Tokka-B]

It's not moral. War can never be a moral act, not even as a "last resort." In the best case, war is a necessary evil. What is the moral difference between a crusade and a jihad?

Bombing of civilian populations is a form of terrorism, even more abhorrent than low-tech terrorist street bombings of innocents. This has been so ever since the first instance of "strategic" bombing (coincidentally, in Iraq, in 1917 by the British), up to the devastating bombing of Afghanis in our efforts to destroy Al Qaeda, and our continuing bombing raids into Iraq over the past ten years.

Pre-emptive war is anti-American. The concept was made infamous by Adolf Hitler, who claimed his aggression was necessary, to prevent attacks on Germany.

War always has corrosive effects on Constitutional Rights. It brings out the worst in presidents, vice-presidents, and attorneys general who are tempted to take Nixonian shortcuts.

Those were a few more of my reasons not to go to war with Iraq, basically war is just plain stupid, a bunch of barbarians using might, no brains. Why can't we all just put our heads together and come up with a global solution? Nah, that would take too much thinking, LOL.

[That Matt Guy]

Heh, what do you know, some American troop just attacked his own division with a grenade and injured like 15 people.... :roll:

Well it turns out the soldier who did that was a muslim, and he did it on purpose. He killed a Captain, so I'm sure he is will spend the rest of his life in jail.

[Tokka-B]

Well, he wasn't originally a muslim, he is a convert, and most converts would do that to show how awful a religion (that they hate) can be, when it isn't the religion, it was the dude who wanted to make it seem horrible. I bet that is why he converted. :cry:

Also, take a look at this article:

SAFWAN, Iraq (March 23) - Civilians in southern Iraq are beginning to wonder if the U.S. and British troops who have captured their towns are liberators or occupiers.

"I swear it was better when Saddam was here," said Jamal Kathim, as his angry friends nodded in agreement.

Iraqis in the predominantly Shi'ite south had high hopes for stability at the start of a four-day-old war that President Bush said would liberate them.

Instead many are struggling to find food, water and medicine when they leave their mud huts and wander along highways through coalition checkpoints.

Shi'ite emotions are caught between fears of President Saddam Hussein's troops returning and fury over what they say is the failure of coalition troops so far to deliver on the humanitarian front.

When Iraqis are not worrying about food supplies, they wonder why U.S. helicopters have swooped down on their villages and allegedly fired on civilian vehicles.

The dead and wounded are sometimes rushed to a British-controlled checkpoint near Safwan, a town of 16,000.

"All I can do is change the bandage," said a British soldier to a wounded Iraq civilian with shrapnel in his leg.

Hospital officials in Safwan said they have treated about 40 civilians who were injured or killed in air raids by coalition forces since the conflict started.

"We try to move the wounded to bigger hospitals and we find American forces pointing guns at us at checkpoints," said Fadil Abbas, the director of the Safwan hospital, pointing to a stretcher with a blood stain.

Other residents of Safwan, where the Iraqis and coalition forces signed a ceasefire after the 1991 Gulf War, said coalition forces are preventing them from retrieving the corpses of 200 Iraqi soldiers in a nearby town.

After hospital officials placed two civilians in a mosque before burial, teenagers gathered at a petrol station that had been looted, walking barefoot in gasoline and siphoning it for a few dollars.

"The Americans and British said it was going to be a liberation but this is an occupation," said Majid, 15.

In the countryside, women in black shawls scrubbed clothes in dirty water.

Other Iraqis sat outside their huts watching coalition troops crawl along the desert floor and tanks rumble across a highway, their treads ripping up the tarmac.

An electricity pylon that was destroyed by coalition bombing and burnt out Iraqi tanks reminded them of the war that had raised hopes among Shi'ites.

Many have bitter memories of their 1991 rebellion against Saddam, which was ruthlessly crushed after the Americans left.

Frustrations were palpable at a checkpoint where an Iraqi man was urgently trying to tell an American soldier something about a nearby power plant.

"He doesn't understand me. There are four Iraqis who work for the government who won't let us go in there to look for our relatives because it was shelled. The men have guns," said the man. "Why don't they listen?"

[Donatello02]

He's muslim. He's evil. He's a terrorist. Let's hang him. And then we can mutilate his satanic carcass.

The NEW mindset of America. Yay.

[Voltron]

Who the hell cares what Iraqis think? ********! Who are they to tell us what to do? We got guns, and we are saving their asses from genocide!

You want us to leave the towns after we liberate them? Yeah, and why not just have our troops shoot themselves in the back as well! I mean, no one would EVER think that once a town is liberated, all the radicals and loyal supporters of Hussein just disappear.

Another thing! France now wants a say in what happens during Iraq's reconstruction! Damn Cheese suckers! Why is it that Europe smells? France! France! FRAAAAAAAAANCE!

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html[/url]

[That Matt Guy]

Well, he wasn't originally a muslim, he is a convert, and most converts would do that to show how awful a religion (that they hate) can be, when it isn't the religion, it was the dude who wanted to make it seem horrible. I bet that is why he converted. :cry:

Yeah it's just pathetic. But still thats no excuse to attack your own troops.

[Tokka-B]

Well Voltron, I can't really comment on what should or would happen as the war was a poor choice anyway. And I hope you were joking when you said you don't care what the Iraqi's think... :roll:

It just goes to show the type of people that favored a war. :lol:

[Leo656]

I suppose a better choice would be to casually mind our own business until we got sucker-punched by Iraq or some other country again.

Oh, wait, I forgot, what's going on in Iraq has nothing to do with us. And even if Saddam does has weapons of mass destruction, he'd never turn them on us. Nope, Iraq would never bother wasting their time attacking us. Why would another country attack us if we just stayed out of their affairs?

Oh, wait, sorry. Forgot about that whole Pearl Harbor thing.

And the 9/11 attack, which was completely unprovoked.

Is it asking too much that America, just once, throw the first punch? Is it? Do you honestly believe that we would NOT be going to war with Iraq within the next five years or so anyway? If so, you need to seriously wake up and realize that we've been on the brink of war with Iraq since Desert Storm ended. Nothing ever really got settled. Now, hopefully, it will be.

We're at war. And, like it or not, we're the GOOD GUYS. I don't care what some frigging tree hugging hippie celebrity tells me I should think about the war. I don't care how fashionable it is to criticize the President or his policies. Watch the news. More than 60% of America is FOR the war. That tells me something. It tells me that as a whole, America realizes that we're in the right. And a bunch of morons who can't live in the real world breaking into Air Force bases, protesting in the streets obstructing traffic, and making life miserable for everyone else, are NOT going to make a damn bit of diference.

And I'm not going to say that "I don't care what the Iraqis think". So you need to step back before you make blanket statements like that, Junior. What I WILL say, is that if these people liked it better under Saddam, they should have joined his damn army and fought to preserve the current status quo. They'd make a lot more difference than the pathetic attempts his soldiers are currently making.

[One Radical Dude]

Good statement, Leo.

I do think that this war may be longer than expected. A lot of things have happened, thus far, and I think it's far from over. Either way, I still support this war. I want to see Saddam's regime disintegrate.

From what I heard not too long ago, according to Iraqi TV, Saddam is supposedly going to make a 'historic speech.' Whether this shows that he really is functioning well or not, that remains to be seen. I wouldn't doubt if this 'speech' was recorded at an earlier date.

[Zenrick]

I am just angry 'cause access to San Francisco was cut off due to the irritating as crap 'peace' rally people. I want to toss grenades in their crowd 'cause they are my enemies just like Iraq.....if they dont like our countries decision, LEAVE! Dont freaking wreak havoc in our country and cause problems from the inside. I've lost a TON of respect for System of a Down for making that gay video about their 'peace' rally. I could care less if their stupid Armenian people were murdered so long ago and their parents had to flea to america. The killing wont stop, so we must take action and if they hate that go back to Armenia, dont cause problems in our America. ****. And whats with these stupid people from hollywood trying to start crap? F that and F them, they are Iraqis to me.....traitors......I just hope Jeanine Garoffolo and the Dixie Chick singer ugly woman are imprisoned for high treason ;) that'd be great!
-J

[Voltron]

Saddam is just like Hitler. You think he should be left in power?

He attacks other countries without provocation.

He tortures and murders his own people.

His son was EXILED from Iraq in fear of death for pissing off his father.

He is a lunatic and a genocidal madman.

He is setting oil wells on fire, destroying the environment.

The only reason France, Germany, and Russia are opposed to this war is because Saddam gives them a good deal on oil. If that deal was taken away, see how fast France rushes in.

Now, why isn't this war justified?

[Donatello02]

Saddam is just like Hitler. You think he should be left in power?

He attacks other countries without provocation.

He tortures and murders his own people.

His son was EXILED from Iraq in fear of death for pissing off his father.

He is a lunatic and a genocidal madman.

He is setting oil wells on fire, destroying the environment.

The only reason France, Germany, and Russia are opposed to this war is because Saddam gives them a good deal on oil. If that deal was taken away, see how fast France rushes in.

Now, why isn't this war justified?

Our goverment has a history of unprovoked attacks, mostly on innocent civilians. The US goverment tried genocide with the Japanese during WWII. We are destroying the enviroment with our power plants and pollutants. France, Russia, and Germany are doing what every other country including America does today, and that's look out for their own interests. Now why is this war justified?

[Tokka-B]

Yea, I'd say Bush is more like Hitler.

He attacks a country that hasn't done anything to us, Iraq didn't do 9/11 a terrorist did, if Mcveigh when to Romania and killed thousands, would they then blame it on us, the common citizen?

You could say Bush tortures his own people without a good economy, so many people are becoming homeless and not cared for that we have to go worry about another country that can be dealt with by there own people...Bush lowers the taxes to feed the rich in hopes of them spending the money, who is he kidding? I'd take Roosevelt's New Deal anytime now...sheesh Bush has the death penalty in Texas, thus killing thousands of people, if that isn't torture, I don't know what is...

Don't tell me you didn't think he would set the oil wells on fire when we are attacking his country for no reason...that is like saying he won't use wmds sometime soon, it isn't a question about whetther he has them or not anymore, it is a question of how to deal with it. I can not stress this anymore, the end does not justify the means....just cause you have a knife in your house, doesn't mean I should attack you because I think you will use it on me...

Saddam is evil. I've never said he isn't. He does horrible things. But by lowering ourselves to his level we become just like him. We're now on his level...not above it like we could be. "When slaying monsters one must be careful not to become one in the process." Peaceful ends through peaceful means...that's the only way the human race will avoid its own destruction. We didn't try all that hard to end things peacefully...war should only come as a last ditch effort when it is FORCED upon a nation. Defending our own nation from our own soil would be an example. Going to another nation, invading it, conquering it, and occupying shows that we were the aggressors and chose to bring war. That is morally bankrupt and wrong.

Friendly fire has been too common in this war, and we have lost many lives so far, too many already and we haven't reached baghdad yet. Neither have we captured any of Saddam's regime, but so quickly do we forget what the main task is, I doubt our regime will even give him a try at court if we even catch him, not wanting to here a thought out speech and such, of course we are known to take away things when we don't like them, such as innocent until proven guilty...

During a war, it should be normal that at least 90% of the population of your OWN country is with you, when it gets down to 70, then you know you aren't listening to the american people and others around the world and it is just pathetic and pure ignorance.

I really wouldn't be surprised if Bush gets impeached, being a war criminal it is almost inevitable.

BTW, sorry Don for not being here earlier, a sudden wave of pro-war comments was too quick for me, lol.. :wink:

[Leo656]

>>>Bush has the death penalty in Texas, thus killing thousands of people, if that isn't torture, I don't know what is... <<<

Well I call it worthless, blood sucking wastes of life getting what they deserve. I don't know what *you'd* call it. To me, if you're walking down the street and decide that you're going to rape and murder the next woman that passes, and you do, that means that you forfeit your right to live. Prisons are overcrowded as it is, and I sure as hell don't want these people walking the streets again.

In fact, that's one of my main reasons for supporting Bush, is the fact he had more prisoners put to death than any Texas governor in the state's history. He had to be doing something right.

But then again I support capital punishment 100% and you obviously don't, so we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that one.

[One Radical Dude]

Actually, Tokka, I read from a few places that the Oklahoma City bombing has Saddam Hussein's name on it. You see, McVeigh and Terry Nichols may have been Iraqi agents, and trained by the Iraqi government. It makes sense to me.

Again, countries such as Russia, China, etc. have made Saddam Hussein powerful by selling him weapons of mass destruction.

If President Bush is to blame for the bad economy, why did the plunge begin during the last year or so of the Clinton Administration? Sorry, but that isn't Dubya's fault.

It sounds like you're supporting Saddam, even though you say that 'he's evil.' People are attacking Bush in the United States because of who's in office right now. I bet if Al Gore was in office today and makes the decision to do exactly what GWB has done in the Iraq situation, you would not be criticizing him. I didn't criticize Clinton when he bombed Kosovo and other nations.

I support the Presdient right now, and he is doing the best that he can. I don't agree with him on everything. Clinton is the criminal, and he got away with everything.

Most of the anti-war/peace demonstrations aren't even peaceful. It ends up being violent. Lots of people are blocking the streets, some throw rocks, vandalism takes place....they really seem peaceful, don't they? :trolleye:

Tokka, you mentioned "friendly fire". Dude, people are going to be killed in this war....even if it is from "friendly fire!!" There is no such thing as a war without casualties. As a soldier, etc. in a war, you sacrifice your life to defend people's right, to liberate people, etc. etc. Pretending that there's nobody going to harm the United States isn't going to create peace. Remember 9-11-01? When dictators like Saddam are in power, there is no way to peace. The Iraqi people have no freedom, no peace, etc.

GWB gave Saddam numerous opportunities to change his ways, but Saddam has refused. Bush could have easily tried to stop him sooner, but people wanted to give Saddam chances to change. If you're with Saddam, you're supporting a Hitler or a Stalin.

[Voltron]

Bush is an idiot. And there are more than two sides to every argument.

YES we should liberate Iraq but it may be impossible

NO Bush is not right for America

Now Bush may be a self agrandizing moron, and this war MAY NOT be justifiable in some aspects, especially considering that

We haven't done ANYTHING to North Korea after it's threats.

We haven't stopped ALL the terrorists yet

We look like monster assholes

Our Economy is going to hell

We are governed by pompous assholes that care nothing for anyone but themselves, they are totally above the law (even though they really aren't) they disregard everything that America stands for.


BUT


Saddam does the same thing, EXACTLY the same thing....

The US rarely attacks unprovoked,

Except during the cold war when we stuck our noses into Korea, but in that case we had to save those people from genocide

and Vietnam, when France told us to fight for them

And the Spanish/American War, when we lied about the Maine and just went ape **** down in Cuba...

The truth is, Saddam had warning, and was given ultimatums to avoid war. He didn't tale them..

Either way we are getting called into Korea and I'm most likely going to die fighting someone I don't even want to fight.....

War is a rich man's chess game...

[Donatello02]

War is only necessary when it's made so. Their is no valid reason for this war. Period.

[Tokka-B]

Exactly Don, I am tired of this debate anyway, I think we all know each other's view on things by now anyway. We shouldn't get into capital punishment, as that is a different issue as well as economic revivals. All I can hope for is that the arrogant empire will cease to be dominant and be more of a member of the global community as equals. I also hope we don't have a terrorist attack here again, but that may seem inevitable now..

[Voltron]

What's so civil about war, anyway?

[Tokka-B]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Leo656]

Axl is the smartest man in history.

[Tokka-B]

Axl?

And what do you mean by smartest?

[Barkworm]

Yea, I'd say Bush is more like Hitler.

He attacks a country that hasn't done anything to us, Iraq didn't do 9/11 a terrorist did, if Mcveigh when to Romania and killed thousands, would they then blame it on us, the common citizen?

You could say Bush tortures his own people without a good economy, so many people are becoming homeless and not cared for that we have to go worry about another country that can be dealt with by there own people...Bush lowers the taxes to feed the rich in hopes of them spending the money, who is he kidding? I'd take Roosevelt's New Deal anytime now...sheesh Bush has the death penalty in Texas, thus killing thousands of people, if that isn't torture, I don't know what is...

Don't tell me you didn't think he would set the oil wells on fire when we are attacking his country for no reason...that is like saying he won't use wmds sometime soon, it isn't a question about whetther he has them or not anymore, it is a question of how to deal with it. I can not stress this anymore, the end does not justify the means....just cause you have a knife in your house, doesn't mean I should attack you because I think you will use it on me...

Saddam is evil. I've never said he isn't. He does horrible things. But by lowering ourselves to his level we become just like him. We're now on his level...not above it like we could be. "When slaying monsters one must be careful not to become one in the process." Peaceful ends through peaceful means...that's the only way the human race will avoid its own destruction. We didn't try all that hard to end things peacefully...war should only come as a last ditch effort when it is FORCED upon a nation. Defending our own nation from our own soil would be an example. Going to another nation, invading it, conquering it, and occupying shows that we were the aggressors and chose to bring war. That is morally bankrupt and wrong.

Friendly fire has been too common in this war, and we have lost many lives so far, too many already and we haven't reached baghdad yet. Neither have we captured any of Saddam's regime, but so quickly do we forget what the main task is, I doubt our regime will even give him a try at court if we even catch him, not wanting to here a thought out speech and such, of course we are known to take away things when we don't like them, such as innocent until proven guilty...

During a war, it should be normal that at least 90% of the population of your OWN country is with you, when it gets down to 70, then you know you aren't listening to the american people and others around the world and it is just pathetic and pure ignorance.

I really wouldn't be surprised if Bush gets impeached, being a war criminal it is almost inevitable.

BTW, sorry Don for not being here earlier, a sudden wave of pro-war comments was too quick for me, lol.. :wink:
I think Tokka is totally right. Bush is such a hypocrite. Every time I see this moron on TV he talks about liberating Iraq, but is anyone, ANYONE that naive to think that he would attack Iraq, if its oil ressources weren't that big? It's not just that there is a war, it's also how this war started.
-A lot of actors are against war. What happens? The American government appeals to the people to BOYCOTT their movies. Well, just another kind od dictator-ship...
-France is courageous enough (yes courageous) to refuse to join in this war. So French Fries must be renamed to "Freedom Fries"! That's just sooooo cool! Where are we, kindergarten (or should I say "Freedom Garden" :D )???
-The USA won't listen to UNO? So what's the reason of having the UNO?
All this things are just ridiculous...

[One Radical Dude]

The "Freedom Fries" thing is only at that one restaurant. And remember, there were name changes of foods back during World War I and II.

Again, France is every loyal is very loyal to Saddam Hussein. The same goes with Russia, China, and Germany.

Sorry, if GWB was like Hitler, he would be torturing people. If you say that Bush is like Hitler, then you should say that Clinton is also a "Hitler", as well. He attacked Kosovo, Haiti, and I didn't see a whole lot of peaceniks back at that time.

[Barkworm]

For me GWB is one of the most disgusting living beings on Earth, but I agree that except Mao Zedong and Stalin noone can be compared to Hitler.
And remember, there were name changes of foods back during World War I and II.
True, but shouldn't mankind be wiser now???

[That Matt Guy]

Well I too have mixed feelings about this war now, if Saddam had all of these chemical weapons that Bush claims he does; don't you think Saddam would have tried to use them on us by now? It seems the only weapons the Iraqis have are vintage Soviet era rifles and anti-tank rockets. But let me ask this, how many of you would be surprised if the Iraqis used chemical or biological weapons on the US and British forces?

[One Radical Dude]

Well, we've already seen the Iraqi forces use weapons that they supposedly did NOT have. There was one more thing that I forgot to mention, and that's the West Nile virus. I'm not saying that this is a fact, but I did hear that the virus somehow came from Saddam. If so, then this definitely means that they have those chemicals.

As for biological weapons on the U.S. and British forces, I wouldn't be that surprised. Anything goes during a war. Despite what has happened, my opinion on war has NOT changed.

[One Radical Dude]

And if these peaceniks want peace, they (a lot of them) need to do a peaceful protest, not act violent. I've seen a lot of flag burnings, poster burns, rock throwing, trashing up places, and even throwing chairs around (that happened in Sydney, Australia)! That kind of crap makes me wanna vomit.

[That Matt Guy]

Well, we've already seen the Iraqi forces use weapons that they supposedly did NOT have. There was one more thing that I forgot to mention, and that's the West Nile virus. I'm not saying that this is a fact, but I did hear that the virus somehow came from Saddam. If so, then this definitely means that they have those chemicals.

Yeah Saddam has a few Scud missiles, but that is nothing to start a full scale war over, and those Scuds aren't even that powerful compared to what we have. But what do I know, Saddam might be saving the worst for last; and I wonder how many civilians will be killed if the Iraqis use chemical or biological weapons. I have heard that West Nile thoery before, I am not sure if it is true either.

[That Matt Guy]

And if these peaceniks want peace, they (a lot of them) need to do a peaceful protest, not act violent. I've seen a lot of flag burnings, poster burns, rock throwing, trashing up places, and even throwing chairs around (that happened in Sydney, Australia)! That kind of crap makes me wanna vomit.

I agree with you on that, I don't think a lot of these peace protesters give a crap about Iraq; I think a lot of them just hate Bush and the military.

[Barkworm]

It's just sad when some idiots use violence to show how much they dislike war.

[heretic888]

All i have seen so far.... in the war, in the terrorist attacks, and in the 'peace' protests are one consciousness block going jihad on the others. the egocentric/tribal terrorists like Osama and Hussein use their visciousness and power to rape and pillage whoever they can. The conservative/absolutistics like Bush and the majority of the Republican party go around preaching about this 'axis of evil' and push their concrete-literal values on others. The rational-egoic materialists (whom comprise a fair share of both the Republican and Democrat sides) only care about the hit in the economy and are concerned with increasing their capitalistic horizons. The overly-idealistic green-liberals (largely Democrats and Liberterians) want peace and dialogue and arrogantly/agressively pushing their values on others in the crusade for 'sensitivity' and 'political correctness'.

All of these 'consciousness blocks' have something worth saying, but they all have messy baggage they need to jettison. No matter what you think, only Order-types like Bush and the Republicans can deal with the tribal atrocities of the terrorists and dicators. The green liberals have nothing to do here. All the peace talking, dialoguing, linking, and sharing in the world is not going to stop the Hitlers and Osamas and Saddams of the world. Of course, these 'truth and order' conservatives have a lot of that fundamentalist ******** that needs to be jettisoned. The green liberals, likewise, have a lot worth saying: human rights, feminism, ecologic awareness, animal rights, and so on..... but they need to get rid of this politically correct inanity that plagues their movements.

What I haven't seen so far is a truly integral approach to situation. And I doubt I will. Its a sure bet the conservatives will go on a talking about evil this and that, and the materialists will go on worrying about the stock market and oil, and the sensitive liberterians will go on worrying about not 'offending' anybody. Each as exclusive and imperialistic as the other.

[Tokka-B]

Well, as much as we would like this country to be more of a whole instead of seperate divisions, (indivisible?) the beauty of it is the fact that we all have several different opinions about this war and that there is a whole spectrum there instead of one idea, unfortunately only one idea will be used in the end, but I think we should start having each "division" cooperate with one another and talk it out to make a good decision inclusively, and add several scents of global opinion as well to make the decision accurate. To stretch this out more in my opinion, I think we should just become more a part of the international community and be a part of the world court and such as well as accept treaties and codes.

On another note, I was amused to see on AOL when I signed on.....BAM, there is a story about how Saddam's phone is tapped or whatever and other stuff that may be rumors, but if they were true, now Saddam knows it, lol...They do this on the news stations too, they give each specific plan of attack and how they will do it with what weapons, when, where, everything...sheesh :lol: :lol:
I just hope this doesn't turn into Vietnam in the sense that they will lie about our deaths and reassure us the war will be over soon if it won't and that they are losing a lot but don't mention us. That was a big problem then, see Apocalypse Now to know what I am talking about.

[heretic888]

I wasn't referring to a uniform, monolithic creed here when i said 'integral'. Rather, I was hoping for a more unified vision that takes ALL of these 'consciousness blocks' into account in a more 'holistic' scope. A 'big picture', if you will.... I will clarify this later.

[Reznorite420]

(That uber-long post)Wow...I didn't realize I wasn't the only one that thought the way you did.

And another surprising thing: 5 pages...I didn't expect this thread to survive locking past 2 or 3.

[heretic888]

well, I'm plannin' on starting up another thread clarifying this 'integral theory' which, admittedly, is heavily based on the more recent writings of Ken Wilber (as well as quite a few other theorists).....