Do you think the Mirage universe should have a conclusive ending?

[CyberCubed]

Meaning there is a "final" issue of sorts, and the Mirage universe actually ends. There can be more TMNT comics afterward, but it would be a fresh start reboot with no continuation from the last 25 years of TMNT comics.

Or would you prefer the Mirage universe to go on for 50-60 years like DC and Marvel continuities?

For me, I'd prefer some final canon ending to the Mirage universe. I don't really expect or want TMNT to go on forever like Batman or Superman comics, where it just keeps going and retconning old stuff but never ending.

Considering we're pretty much at the point right now where the future of TMNT comics post-Volume 4 seems slim, what do you think?

[jalexbrown]

I wouldn't mind there being a definitive ending to the canon, so long as they stayed open-mided to the idea of rebooting or creating a new canon in the future.

[Andrew NDB]

I think the Mirage TMNT universe was never intended to go on indefinitely. I pretty much think it follows the model of things like Cerebus and Groo and such. I think there should be an ending and I think Eastman and Laird have always imagined it that way... even if they maybe don't agree on or even ever settled on what it would be.

That's why I kind of have a problem with DC/Marvel-esque "modernizing" of the TMNT in the past in a lot of Tales issues. iPods, modern cell phones and stuff when they're supposed to be in the 80s. I don't see them like Batman or Superman or the X-Men (where there's a perpetually pushed-forward "present day")... I think there's a beginning that begins in 1984 and ends when they die sometime in the late 21st century.

But that doesn't mean there couldn't be a virtually bottomless sack of stories from which to do "fill in the gaps" stories pretty much for decades (or for as long as there's interest) afterward.

[Cipher]

I'm with Andrew. The Turtles have a timeline; we see them live out their life. They kill Shredder in 1984. They go public in 2002. We see them in their old age and know they drift apart (one of my favorite things about the series).

We know what the ultimate ending to the Turtles is. The final one dies, probably from old age. But that still needs to be addressed by the series; we need a final cap on the future and a final cap on the themes.

Ideally? Wrap up Volume 4 and then give us a final little flash-forward to the future to put a nice thematic ribbon on everything. I'm not saying everything has to be entirely covered either. For example, the ending to Volume 1 was perfectly satisfying and it concluded witha stranger glancing out a window.

But yeah, the ending is the most important part of any story, and the fact that American comics seem to ignore it constantly really goads me. It's one of the reasons why I don't read a lot of other titles outside of mini-series. I'd like Turtles to be better than that, especially since its already formatted for it and the property's been sold.

[Oculus Orbus]

I want it to have an ending. Not necessarily right now, but at some point soon. I agree this is a good moment to do it, and it would be really nice to have a wrap up of the Mirage continuity before the new one stars running.

[Luzmagica]

Wow....:o everybody until now are agree about this poll , awesome!!
I prefer a conclusive story (bengining and end, a good end of course!), that kind of end that everybody can remember for long time ago.... and then a new line of comics, or reboot.

[discordiatookie]

Reckon that I would like to see an end to it all also at some point...

[Candy Kappa]

I'd love to se a ending.
is there a story about their last adventure, when their old?

[Powder]

I'd like to see it have its closure but if that meant never seeing the same mirage artists again I'd be a little sad. If mirage themselves could do alternate universe kinda things while finishing the current run I'd be happy. For instance, I'd love to see stuff like souls winter have its own series. I also think its a shame that tales didn't get up to like 100 issues cause as many here know, there were alot of plot holes to be closed. But yeah, once again, a last issue or something that shows where they all went off to at the ends of their lives would be great.

[Cipher]

I've said it before, but I'd still love a "Whatever Happened to the Heroes in a Half-Shell?" mini-series.

If it isn't all wrapped up in Volume 4, of course.

EDIT -- And, oh man, I just reread the ending of Tales #45. Perfect example of why the series needs an ending. Tales Vol 2 is actually a pretty somber book, on the whole.

[ToTheNines]

EDIT -- And, oh man, I just reread the ending of Tales #45. Perfect example of why the series needs an ending. Tales Vol 2 is actually a pretty somber book, on the whole.

Sure you don't mean #55?

[sdp]

Turtles have long lifespans though, also if the comic had been as popular as DC/Marvel heroes I assure you the comic would go indefinitely like DC/Marvel universes. But since it is not I can see it having an ending, then again they can have as many issues of the years they didn't cover in the original books if they wanted to do more, not to mention they could just ignore continuity like some of Vol.1 did. Then again I don't really see the book getting a lot of comics out ever, maybe just a few wrapping up Vol.4 or even ignoring that and just giving a random ending. I wouldn't expect much at this point.

[Cipher]

Sure you don't mean #55?#55 goes without saying, but I definitely mean #45. Check the last page.

[Venom]

I agree, there are a LOT of moments throughout the various chronicles of the Turtles' that catches me off-guard and really makes me take a minute to reflect upon the poignant nature of the message.

And ToTheNines, in case your issue isn't handy, the last page is the Turtles promising each other that no matter what happens they will always be there for each other, but check the bottom left corner for the message to be driven home. Earlier they had encountered a lesser god who told them that (to paraphrase) "for every lie told, every unbroken promise and vow unfulfilled a crack forms on the rocks. The world of man crumbles around him."

[Scandia]

Yes, please.

[Venom]

...ends when they die sometime in the late 21st century.

I would hazard that the Turtles live past the 21st century since the surroundings we see them in are either hyper-futuristic or post-apocolyptic.

My interpretation is that Raph travels about a part of the world stricken by some force that rendered that portion so desolate and dilapidated when we see him, Leo lives until he is a shriveled old Turtle lving in a tree-hut.

Don has lived so long that his abode is a sleek futuristic pad somewhere in Japan. I realize in "Old Times" Laird stated is was the early 21st century but that date should be retconned to a far later date since the Turtles are not wrinkled by their 30's and still look much like they did as teenagers.

Anyway, I'm getting WAAYYY off-track and off-topic.

I voted against a conclusion for the simple fact that we most likely will never get a Mirage conclusion. I do hope for a Volume 4 conclusion, but that wasn't the question offered.

That said, from the way the Turtles' stories have been told, I very much agree with Andrew's conclusion that Peter and Kevin both never intended the Turtles adventures to keep going on forever.

[Andrew NDB]

I've said it before, but I'd still love a "Whatever Happened to the Heroes in a Half-Shell?" mini-series.

Hah! And written by Alan Moore? That would be fantastic.

Don has lived so long that his abode is a sleek futuristic pad somewhere in Japan. I realize in "Old Times" Laird stated is was the early 21st century but that date should be retconned to a far later date since the Turtles are not wrinkled by their 30's and still look much like they did as teenagers.

Yeah, I've long said that Peter Laird kind of self-retconned "Old Times." If not entirely, then just pushed back much, much farther in time. Because "The Early 21st century"... that'd be smack in the middle of Vol. 4 and Don is obviously not in that situation.

In some ways, I wonder if the story in the recent Tales Vol. 1 TPB reprint was meant to replace it. If not, one certainly supplements the other.

[oldmanwinters]

Yeah, I've long said that Peter Laird kind of self-retconned "Old Times." If not entirely, then just pushed back much, much farther in time. Because "The Early 21st century"... that'd be smack in the middle of Vol. 4 and Don is obviously not in that situation.

In some ways, I wonder if the story in the recent Tales Vol. 1 TPB reprint was meant to replace it. If not, one certainly supplements the other.

We could always say that the Turtles Forever crossover screwed around with the established Mirage timeline and it had to readjust itself which resulted in either retconing some things or severely delaying their occurrence.:roll

[DrSpengler]

Would I like to see a definitive end to their story? Absolutely.

However, I really don't think either Eastman or Laird ever had an ending in mind, or at least not one they ever took seriously.

The Mirage comic never came across to me as something even half as focused as, say, Cerebus or Bone or other indy books. The first volume got so unfocused and full of guest material that Eastman and Laird had to call a "time out" and reign everything back in with #45.

By the early 90s or so, both Eastman and Laird came across, at least to me, as being far more interested in the marketing of the brand than the storytelling of the original fiction. Even after they reigned it in, they still turned the book over to their staffers and acted just in an advisory capacity.

Then they handed the book over to another company entirely and were just completely *done* with it (for a while).

And when Laird went back to full-on writing duties with Volume 4, and was flat-out asked if he ever had an ending in mind, he replied "no".


Personally, I just don't see TMNT, at least the original Mirage book, as being like so many other indy properties or even finite stories like The Maxx or what have you. The series is far too unfocused and directionless more often than not. And the creators of the series were only "hands on" for a fraction of the run.

While I would LOVE for the TMNT story to have a concise beginning, middle and end...I simply don't see that happened. The Mirage series just falls into a bizarre middle ground between "Corporate comics", which go on forever constantly renewing themselves, and other "indy comics" that begin with a plottd out finish in mind and stop when they get there.

The Mirage series just falls in the middle, as much as I love it, and I think it's simply going to peter-off into the ether; it won't go on forever like a corporate comic, nor will it have an ending like an indy comic. It's just gonna fade away.

[oldmanwinters]

It's just gonna fade away.

Like a ninja should.

"We strike hard ...
and fade away....
into the night."

Or into Nicktoons, whichever one comes first.

[Powder]

Like a ninja should.

"We strike hard ...
and fade away....
into the night."

Or into Nicktoons, whichever one comes first.




Chills, dude...



Chills.

[willtupper]

I know I'm an idiot (so there's no need to remind me here, thank you :)), but I would like the Mirage Universe to have a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure-style ending.

I would like Mr. Laird to write / draw a final issue.

I would like Mr. Eastman to write / draw an entirely different final issue.

I would like Mr. Berger, Mr. Lawson, and (especially!) Mr. Dooney to all write / draw a final issue.

I would like Murph to write a final issue (he is Murph, so he can get anyone he wants to draw it).

They would all have no references to each other.

And the kicker?

I would want them all published on the same day.

It would work in every way. Fans would certainly get at least one ending that made them happy. Every iconic creator involved in the Turtles long history would get one fine way to say goodbye.

Plus, from a marketing standpoint, it would make for a big, juicy newsstory. Which would help get the word out, which would (hopefully!) lead to every issue selling out.

I would also like a pony :D.

[Powder]

I know I'm an idiot (so there's no need to remind me here, thank you :)), but I would like the Mirage Universe to have a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure-style ending.

I would like Mr. Laird to write / draw a final issue.

I would like Mr. Eastman to write / draw an entirely different final issue.

I would like Mr. Berger, Mr. Lawson, and (especially!) Mr. Dooney to all write / draw a final issue.

I would like Murph to write a final issue (he is Murph, so he can get anyone he wants to draw it).

They would all have no references to each other.

And the kicker?

I would want them all published on the same day.

It would work in every way. Fans would certainly get at least one ending that made them happy. Every iconic creator involved in the Turtles long history would get one fine way to say goodbye.

Plus, from a marketing standpoint, it would make for a big, juicy newsstory. Which would help get the word out, which would (hopefully!) lead to every issue selling out.

I would also like a pony :D.


I like what you're going for Will, but I'd rather something slightly different... that is if it were broken up that way. Lets see each of them do one issue, about the future of only one turtle. Raph through Eastman, Donny through Laird etc etc leaving other writers & artists the fates of april & casey, shadow, & even perhaps splinter... (though he's dead, whos to say he isnt watching over his sons from the grave.. with rat king!) Now THAT would be epic.

[Galactus]

Yeah, I've long said that Peter Laird kind of self-retconned "Old Times." If not entirely, then just pushed back much, much farther in time. Because "The Early 21st century"... that'd be smack in the middle of Vol. 4 and Don is obviously not in that situation.

In some ways, I wonder if the story in the recent Tales Vol. 1 TPB reprint was meant to replace it. If not, one certainly supplements the other.

It could be that he didn't really think about it much. I know back in the early nineties if someone mentioned the year 2000 or the 21st century to me it conjured images of the far future, it wasn't until the mid to late nineties that I thought about logicaly. You see things like that in movies and books all the time.

Alternatively this could be exactly what he planned. Afterall I don't think a year has past Mirage-time in Volume 4 yet. To them it could still be 2002 and yet thanks to the Utrom first contact people would have acess to Star Trek-esque Holo Suites and whatnot. Peter did say he originaly was going to do an apacalyptic ending for vol 4 but changed his mind during the hiatus. If that's the case it could have ended with a disaster that could lead in to some of the visions we've seen of the TMNT's future. The only discrepancy I can think of with this theory are two issues published while Laird wasn't approving Tales stories. (Not saying they shouldn't count...although I don't think many would mind if Swan Song disapeared from canon but maybe retcon both to take place earlier or something)

[Andrew NDB]

It could be that he didn't really think about it much. I know back in the early nineties if someone mentioned the year 2000 or the 21st century to me it conjured images of the far future, it wasn't until the mid to late nineties that I thought about logicaly.

I think you're on the money here.

Alternatively this could be exactly what he planned. Afterall I don't think a year has past Mirage-time in Volume 4 yet. To them it could still be 2002 and yet thanks to the Utrom first contact people would have acess to Star Trek-esque Holo Suites and whatnot. Peter did say he originaly was going to do an apacalyptic ending for vol 4 but changed his mind during the hiatus. If that's the case it could have ended with a disaster that could lead in to some of the visions we've seen of the TMNT's future. The only discrepancy I can think of with this theory are two issues published while Laird wasn't approving Tales stories. (Not saying they shouldn't count...although I don't think many would mind if Swan Song disapeared from canon but maybe retcon both to take place earlier or something)

This is possible too... though the Tales TPB reprint seemed to make it a point to make Donatello seem super elderly, well beyond how he appeared in Plastron Cafe #1.

[Cipher]

This is possible too... though the Tales TPB reprint seemed to make it a point to make Donatello seem super elderly, well beyond how he appeared in Plastron Cafe #1.And blind. He also seemed blind as hell.

And to address DrSpengler, I don't think either Eastman or Laird ever pictured the series having an ending. But the fact is that through their collaboration with dozens of artists and writers, it's become a series with a definite timeline, set across all stages of the Turtles' lives. That kind of deserves an ending (like all fiction does). It doesn't necessarily need to be one of them writing either. I think Lawson could do an equal if not better job. A lot of his stories are the ones that have driven home the bitter, "time moves on" side of the book.

[Mutated Turtle]

if they do a ending issue,it should be that all the turtles go their seperate ways...and live their own life...and they meet each other one day,and run into the shredder...they kill him.and live their lives,and on the last page of the issue it should say how they died (you can die from old age >.<)and it should also say this:"We strike hard ...
and fade away....
into the night." but thats just an arbiters opinion.

[Powder]

if they do a ending issue,it should be that all the turtles go their seperate ways...and live their own life...and they meet each other one day,and run into the shredder...they kill him.and live their lives,and on the last page of the issue it should say how they died (you can die from old age >.<)and it should also say this:"We strike hard ...
and fade away....
into the night." but thats just an arbiters opinion.

I'm going to assume you don't read comics.



Shredder has been dead for a longgggggg time.

[Mutated Turtle]

I'm going to assume you don't read comics.



Shredder has been dead for a longgggggg time.

...ive wanted to...wow,really hes dead?!i figured since the 2k3 is based off the comics every episode was. >.<

[Cipher]

...ive wanted to...wow,really hes dead?!i figured since the 2k3 is based off the comics every episode was. >.<Nope. He bit the dust in issue #1, actually. A clone of his bit the dust in issue #23 some twenty years ago and that's all she wrote.

There are quite a few comic adaptations throughout the 2003 series, but overall the comics and the cartoon are very different animals. In terms of plot, characters, tone, everything.

[Vivi]

I think it already does have an ending, it's just missing large gaps inbetween. Lots and lots of gaps.

[Venom]

Nope. He bit the dust...actually. A clone of his bit the dust...some twenty years ago and that's all she wrote.

Whoa, the way you said that was a bit surreal man. I could imagine Raph saying something like that so matter-of-factly in the comics.

[ToTheNines]

#55 goes without saying, but I definitely mean #45. Check the last page.

Ok, I don't have it yet (Ordered it from Mirage 3 weeks ago...). It just didn't seem like it would have that kind of moment in it, now I'm looking forward to reading it.

[Zog the Equalizer]

I think I remember reading somewhere that Laird always imagined it would end abruptly and with out a definite ,well, ending. That said I'd like a kind of loose ending where they could pick up later if they wanted to, but also everything is resolved so there's nothing left hanging

[discordiatookie]

I know I'm an idiot (so there's no need to remind me here, thank you :)), but I would like the Mirage Universe to have a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure-style ending.

I would like Mr. Laird to write / draw a final issue.

I would like Mr. Eastman to write / draw an entirely different final issue.

I would like Mr. Berger, Mr. Lawson, and (especially!) Mr. Dooney to all write / draw a final issue.

I would like Murph to write a final issue (he is Murph, so he can get anyone he wants to draw it).

They would all have no references to each other.

And the kicker?

I would want them all published on the same day.

It would work in every way. Fans would certainly get at least one ending that made them happy. Every iconic creator involved in the Turtles long history would get one fine way to say goodbye.

Plus, from a marketing standpoint, it would make for a big, juicy newsstory. Which would help get the word out, which would (hopefully!) lead to every issue selling out.

I would also like a pony :D.

Heh, that would be pretty awesome.


I like what you're going for Will, but I'd rather something slightly different... that is if it were broken up that way. Lets see each of them do one issue, about the future of only one turtle. Raph through Eastman, Donny through Laird etc etc leaving other writers & artists the fates of april & casey, shadow, & even perhaps splinter... (though he's dead, whos to say he isnt watching over his sons from the grave.. with rat king!) Now THAT would be epic.

And that sounds even better! Something along these lines would be fantastic.

[CyberCubed]

Well Peter Laird is 56 (?) right now, so I hope by the time he's 60 we get a conclusion to Volume 4 at least.

I see the problem is as he's pushing up in the years, he has less and less energy to get back into the comics. That's fine, but it would be nice if other people can finish it for him.

So its best if TMNT does get an ending, because otherwise it'll feel like the original version of TMNT will get "lost" in the wave of the newer stuff.

[Mutated Turtle]

So its best if TMNT does get an ending, because otherwise it'll feel like the original version of TMNT will get "lost" in the wave of the newer stuff.

that is true:trolleye:

[willtupper]

I now like this thread even 4x more than when it began.

Powder, I think your suggestion was excellent :tgrin:.

I like what you're going for Will, but I'd rather something slightly different... that is if it were broken up that way. Lets see each of them do one issue, about the future of only one turtle. Raph through Eastman, Donny through Laird etc etc leaving other writers & artists the fates of april & casey, shadow, & even perhaps splinter... (though he's dead, whos to say he isnt watching over his sons from the grave.. with rat king!) Now THAT would be epic.

[Ninjinister]

Nope. He bit the dust in issue #1, actually. A clone of his bit the dust in issue #23 some twenty years ago and that's all she wrote.


Shredder-Shark.

[Cipher]

Shredder-Shark.Yeah ... well.

Sharks don't count. Because I say so.

[Ninjinister]

http://www.sorozatjunkie.hu:88/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/shark1.jpg

Looks like he can count to one at least.

[Cipher]

Looks like he can count to one at least.That was awful.

[CyberCubed]

Too bad the Foot Clan has no definitive ending. In Vol. 4 we find out the Foot Clan is on the verge of extinction because of those warriors, yet in 2060 we find out the Foot Clan is still active.

[Powder]

Too bad the Foot Clan has no definitive ending. In Vol. 4 we find out the Foot Clan is on the verge of extinction because of those warriors, yet in 2060 we find out the Foot Clan is still active.

Yeah I was just thinking that earlier when I re-read tales 40.

[Cipher]

Too bad the Foot Clan has no definitive ending. In Vol. 4 we find out the Foot Clan is on the verge of extinction because of those warriors, yet in 2060 we find out the Foot Clan is still active.Not really a problem.

1) Like you said, they're only on the verge of extinction. The New York branch is the last chapter, but the organization is still in tact. And we don't know how much Karai is telling the truth at this point.

2) They're not exactly in great shape in 2060 either. For all we know, the Foot could be nothing more than ancient Karai and her merry band of robots.

[willtupper]

I also think it would be neat if the Mirage universe had an inconclusive ending.

Like, right towards the end of the very last issue, one of the Turtles (probably Donatello), wakes up from the ~~~weirdest dream!!!~~~ and then goes to tell his brothers about all this crazy stuff that happened to him.

"But, it was just a dream." Donatello says, mostly to himself. "Just a dream."

Then Mikey would say, "That's cool, bro. But you know, we've got the Foot Clan to stop."

And then a close-up of Donatello with a stunned-look on his face.

"Zoinks!" He says. Stunned that his dream has actually happened.

And that ends the book.

I ALSO THINK THAT MAYBE THE DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TIME HAS MESSED ME UP A BIT. I SHOULD STILL BE IN BED, NOW.

Long live the Turtles! :D

[CyberCubed]

I think we should see Casey as an old man in the last issue, shedding a tear that April had finally disappeared into the Kirby dimension.

[odupianist]

Or we could have another crystal appear (or some other means of getting to the Kirby dimension), and having Casey go after her and pulling her back into our dimension.

[Powder]

Or we could have another crystal appear (or some other means of getting to the Kirby dimension), and having Casey go after her and pulling her back into our dimension.

OR

The turtles have long passed away...

the great grandson of shadow has heard the stories passed down & he draws what the turtles look like in his mind with the crystal...


& then it ends, leaving us to know that TURTLES NEVAR DIEEE!!11!1

[Candy Kappa]

TURTLES NEVAR DIEEE!!11!1

TURTLES FOREVER

yeah, someone where gonna write it sooner or later

[Ninjinister]

Yeah ... well.

Sharks don't count. Because I say so.

I just realized how ironic this statement is, considering the magnificent work you did on him (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3390/3296094101_2de7ac771b_o.jpg).

Sure, it was upon request, but it still stands.

[Venom]

They could never become legends....could they? :twink:

[Cipher]

I just realized how ironic this statement is, considering the magnificent work you did on him (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3390/3296094101_2de7ac771b_o.jpg).

Sure, it was upon request, but it still stands.I'd get back to pretending I knew what I was doing in photo programs, but there's no time.

[Powder]

I just realized how ironic this statement is, considering the magnificent work you did on him (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3390/3296094101_2de7ac771b_o.jpg).

Sure, it was upon request, but it still stands.

Ok for real who the hell is shark shredder?

What is he from?

[Ninjinister]

Tales vol 2, issues 3 & 4, and then 33.

[Powder]

Tales vol 2, issues 3 & 4, and then 33.

In what timeline did that supposedly take place?

[Cipher]

In what timeline did that supposedly take place?Mirage. First met not long after "Return to New York," and then again in what must have been just after Volume 2.

[CyberCubed]

TMNT has a depressingly small amount of issues when you consider its been going on for 25 years.

Even if you count the non-canon issues of Volume 1, (so all 62 issues), all of Volume 2, Image, Volume 4, Tales, Tales V.2, and all the one-shot specials....how much does this add to?

About 150 comics?

[Cipher]

TMNT has a depressingly small amount of issues when you consider its been going on for 25 years.

Even if you count the non-canon issues of Volume 1, (so all 62 issues), all of Volume 2, Image, Volume 4, Tales, Tales V.2, and all the one-shot specials....how much does this add to?

About 150 comics?182 not counting Image, 205 including Image.

And there's still all the specials and short story collections.

It's been going for twenty years. Let's say it was scheduled as a monthly series at all points (it wasn't). Then that would come out to 205 issues/300 months. Add in a couple of hiatuses, the fact that it's had stints both as an irregularly published and bi-monthly series (even without delays), and that's not too bad.