Integral theory....

[heretic888]

I thought I'd explain this 'integral theory' i've mentioned with this thread. I'm gonna go at it in parts, instead of slamming y'all with it all at once.

Basically, I'm going to introduce you to a system of developmental psychology called 'Spiral Dynamics' (which Wilber has slightly adapted). Enjoy.

Spiral Dynamics sees humanity proceeding through eight general stages, which are also called memes. In Spiral Dynamics, a meme is simply a basic stage of development that can be expressed in any activity. These memes are NOT rigid levels but flowing waves, with much overlap and interweaving, resulting a dynamic spiral of consciousness unfolding. Development is not a linear ladder but a fluid and flowing affair.

The first six levels of consciousness are called 'first-tier' levels. But then there occurs a revolutionary shift in consciousness: the emergence of the 'second-tier' levels. We will be paying particular attention to this quantum leap into the hyperspace of second-tier consciousness.

Here is a brief description of all eight levels of consciousness (Wilber tracks a few more than the standard eight in his system), the percentage of the world population at each wave, and the percentage of social power held by each.

Both colors and names are used for the stages. Here goes:

-1) Beige, Survival Sense:
sharpen instincts and innate senses

-2) Purple, Kin Spirits:
seek harmony and safety in a mysterious world

-3) Red, Power Gods:
express impulsively, break free, be strong

-4) Blue, Truth Force:
find purpose, bring order, insure future

-5) Orange, Strive Drive:
analyze and strategize to prosper

-6) Green, Human Bond:
explore inner spirit, equalize others

-7) Yellow, Flex Flow:
integrate and align systems

-8 ) Turquoise, Whole View:
synergize and macromanage

I will go into the specifics in the next post.

[heretic888]

1. Beige: Archaic-Instinctual. The level of basic survival; food, water, warmth, sex, and safety have priority. Uses habits and instincts just to survive. A distinct self or 'ego' is barely awakened or sustained. Forms into survival bands to perpetuate life.

Where seen: First human societies, newborn infants, senile elderly, late-stage Alzheimer's patients, mentally ill street people, starving masses, the shell-shocked. Forms approximately 0.1% of the world's adult population, and holds 0% of the social power.

[heretic888]

2. Purple: Magical-Animistic. Thinking is very animistic; magical spirits, both good and bad, swarm the earth, leaving blessings, curses, and spells that determine events. Forms into ethnic tribes. The spirits exist in ancestors and bond the tribe (resulting in the tribal 'ancestor worship'). Kinship and lineage establish political links. Sounds 'holistic' but is actually very atomistic: 'There is a name for each bend in the river but no name for the river.' Aligns with Jean Piaget's pre-operational mode of consciousness.

Where seen: Belief in voo-doo like curses, blood oaths, ancient grudges, good-luck charms, family rituals, magical beliefs, and superstitions; strong in Third World settings, gangs, athletic teams, and corporate 'tribes'; also magical New Age beliefs, crystals, tarot, astrology. 10% of the adult population, 1% of the social power.

[heretic888]

3. Red: Power Gods. Also known as Egocentric. First real emergence of a distinct self or 'ego' separate from the tribe; powerful, impulsive, egocentric, heroic. Manifests a belief in mythic saints, archetypes, dragons, and beasts. Archetypal gods and goddesses, powerful beings, forces to be reckoned with, both good and evil. Feudal lords protect underlings in exchange for obediance and labor. The basis of feudal empires--power and glory. The world is a jungle full of threats and predators. Conquers, outfoxes, and dominates; enjoys self to the fullest without regret or remorse; be here now.

Where seen: the 'terrible twos', rebellious youth, frontier mentality, feudal kingdoms, epic heros, James Bond villians, soldiers of fortune (mercenaries), wild rock stars, Attila the Hun, Lord of the Flies, mythic involvement. 20% of the adult population, 5% of the social power.

[heretic888]

4. Blue: Mythic Order. Life has meaning, direction, and purpose, with outcomes determined by an all-powerful Other or Order. This righteous Order enforces a code of conduct based on absolutist and unvarying principles of 'right' and 'wrong'. Violating the code or rules has severe, perhaps everlasting repercussions. Following the code yields rewards for the faithful. The basis of ancient nations. Manifests rigid social hierarchies; paternalistic; one right way and only one right way to think about everything. Law and order; impulsiveness controlled through guilt and fear; concrete-literal and fundamentalist belief; obediance to the rule of Order; strongly conventional and conformist. Often 'religious' in the mythic-fundamentalist sense. Sometimes referred to as the 'saintly/absolutistic' level, which can also be a secular or atheistic Order or Mission (such as with the communist 'world revolution'). Aligns with Jean Piaget's concrete-operational mode of consciousness.

Where seen: Puritan America, Confucian China, Dickensian England, Singapore discipline, totalitarianism, codes of chivalry and honor, charitable good deeds, religious fundamentalism (e.g., Christian and Islamic), Boy and Girl Scouts, 'moral majority', patriotism. 40% of the adult population, 30% of the social power.

[heretic888]

5. Orange: Scientific Achievement. Also called Rational-Egoic or Rational-Formalistic. At this wave, the self or 'ego' escapes from the 'herd mentality' of blue an seeks truth and meaning in individualistic and scientific terms. The world is a rational and well-oiled machine with natural laws that can be learned, mastered, and manipulated for one's purposes. Highly achievement-oriented, especially toward materialistic gains. The laws of science rule politics, the economy, and human events. The world is a chessboard on which games are played and winners gain preeminence and perks over losers. Manifests as marketplace alliances; manipulate earth's resources for one's strategic gains. The basis of corporate states. Aligns with Jean Piaget's formal-operational mode of consciousness.

Where seen: the 'Age of Reason', Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, Wall Street, emerging middle classes around the world, the cosmetics industry, trophy hunting, colonialism, the Cold War (from the American side anyways, the Russian side was blue), deism (belief in the 'God of Reason'), the fashion industry, materialism, market capitalism, liberal self-interest. 30% of the adult population, 50% of the social power. Orange is the 'center of gravity' in both North America dn Western Europe.

[heretic888]

6. Green: The Sensitive Self. In Wilber's system, this stage is referred to as Early Vision-Logic or the Early Centaur. Communitarian, human bonding, ecological sensitivity, networking. The human spirit must be freed from greed, dogma, and divisiveness; feelings and care supersede cold rationality; cherishing of the earth, Gaia, and life. Against hierarchy; etablishes lateral/horizontal bonding and linking. Permeable self, relational self, group intermeshing. Emphasis on dialogue and relationships. The basis of value communities (i.e., freely chosen affiliations based on shared sentiments). Reaches decisions through reconciliation and consensus (downside: interminable 'processing' and incapacity to reach decisions). Refresh spirituality, bring harmony, enrich human potential. Strongly egalitarian, anti-hierarchy, pluralistic values. Belief in the social construction of reality, diversity, multiculturalism, relativisitc value systems; this worldview is often called pluralistic relativism. Subjective, nonlinear thinking; shows a greater degre of affective warmth, sensitivity, and caring, for earth and all its inhabitants.

Where seen: 'deep ecology', postmodernism, Netherlands indealism, Rogerian counseling, Canadian health care, humanistic psychology (like Abraham Maslow), liberation theology (like Martin Luther King, Jr.), cooperative inquiry, World Council of Churches, Greenpeace, ecopsychology, animal rights, ecofeminism, post-colonialism, Foucault/Derrida, politically correct, diversity movements, human rights issues, multiculturalism. 10% of the adult population, 15% of the social power. These percentages are quite a bit higher in North America and Western Europe, where green is very powerful. It's around 20 to 25 percent of the adult population in the United States, for example.

Green is the last of the first-tier levels. Second-tier is next.

[heretic888]

With the completion of the green meme, human consciousness is poised for a quantum leap into 'second-tier thinking'. This is referred to as a 'momentous leap' where 'a chasm of unbelievable depth of meaning is crossed'. This literally changes everything.

In essence, with second-tier consciosness you can, for the first time, vividly grasp the entire spiral of development. You can therefore understand that each level, each meme, each wave, is crucially important for the health of the overall spiral, and thus each is to be cherished and embraced. Very simply, with second-tier awareness, you can see the big picture--and the entire world suddenly appears in a new, vivid, startling light.

It's important to realize that each and every individual has all of these memes potenitally available to them. The focus is not on types OF people, but types IN people. Thus, each wave can itself be activated as life condition warrant. In emergency situations, we can activate red power drives; in response to chaos, we might need to activate blue order; in looking for a new job, we might need orange achievement drives; in marriage and with friends, close green bonding.

But what none of the first-tier memes can do is fully appreciate the existence of the other memes. Each of the first-tier memes thinks that its worldview is the only true perspective. It reacts negatively if challenged; it lashes out, using its own tools, whenever it is threatened. Blue order is very uncomfortable with both red impulsiveness and orange individualism. Orange individualism thinks blue order is for suckers and green egalitarianism is weak and woo-woo. Green egalitarianism cannot easily abide excellence and value rankings, big pictures, hierarchies, or anything that appears remotely authoritarian, and thus green tends to lash out at blue, orange, and anything post-green. Let me put it bluntly: any first-tier meme will prevent world peace.

All that begins to change with second-tier thinking. Because second-tier consciousness is fully aware of the interior stages of development, it steps back and graps the big picture, and thus second-tier thinking appreciates the necessary role that all of the various memes play. Second-tier awareness thinks in terms of the overall spiral of existence, and not merely in terms of any one meme. And thus, with second-tier consciousness, the world begins to make sense, to come together as a whole, to hang together for the first time. Operating from second-tier consciousness, the possibility of genuine peace opens invitingly on the horizon.

Where the green meme--the highest of the first-tier memes--begins to grasp the rich diversity and wonderful pluralism of different cultures, second-tier thinking goes one step further. It looks for unions that link and join these different cultures, and thus it takes these separate systems and begins to embrace, include, and integrate them into holistic spirals and integral meshworks. Second-tier thinking, in other words, is instrumental in moving from pluralism to integralism.

Well, that's second-tier. On to the specifics....

[heretic888]

7. Yello: Integrative. In Wilber's system, this is referred to as Middle Vision-Logic or the Middle Centaur. It, along with turquoise, is also sometimes referred to as Aperspectival-Integral. Life is a kaleidoscope of interrelated, flowing systems. Flexibility, spontaneity, and functionality have the highest priority. Differences and pluralities can be integrated into interdependent, natural flows. Egalitarianism is complemented with natural degrees of excellence, qualitative distinctions and judgments. Knowledge and competency should supersede power, status, or group. The prevailing world order is the result of the existence of different levels of reality (or memes) and the inevitable patterns of movement up and down the dynamic Spiral. Good governance facilitates the emergence of entities through the levels of increasing complexity (nested hiearchies, or holarchies). 1% of the adult population, 5% of the social power.

[heretic888]

8. Turqoise: Holistic. In Wilber's system, this is referred to as Late Vision-Logic or the Mature Centaur. Universal holistic system, waves of integrative energies; unites feeling and knowledge; multiple levels interwoven into one conscious system; the basis of extensive wholeness. Universal order, but in a living, conscious fashion, not based on external rules (blue) or group bonds (green). A 'grand unification' or big picture is possible, in theory and in actuality. Sometimes involves the emergence of a new spirituality (such as the 'Web-of-Life' or 'Divine Web' theory) as a meshwork of all existence. Turqoise thinking is fully integral and uses the entire Spiral; sees multiple levels of interaction; detects harmonics, the mystical forces, and the pervasive flow-states that permeate any organization. 0.1% of the adult population, 1% of the social power.

[heretic888]

With less than 2 percent of the adult population at second-tier thinking--and only 0.1 percent at turqoise--second-tier consciousness is relatively rare because it is now the 'leading edge' of collective human evolution. Examples of second tier include: the 'global village' itself, Teilhard de Chardin's noosphere, the growth of integral psychology (example: Ken Wilber), chaos theories, complexity theories, the 'spectrum of consciousness', integral-holistic systems thinking, and Ghandi's 'universal harmony'---with increases in frequency definitely on the way, and even higher memes still in the offing....

First-tier memes generally resist the emergence of second-tier memes. For example, religious fundamentalism (blue) is often outraged at second tier because of what it sees as an attempt to unseat its given Order. Egocentrism (red) ignores second tier altogether. Magic (purple) puts a hex on it. Green acuses second-tier consciousness if being authoritarian, hierarchical, patriarchal, marginalizing, opressive, racist, and sexist....

[heretic888]

ok, im done guys. sorry bout the length there!! :D

i hope questions and/or discussion ensues. also remember there is a 'third tier' (in Wilber's system) which consists of four additional memes that deal with the truly 'spiritual' levels of consciousness.

enjoy!!

[Kali]

Wow, that was actually informative! :D While I understood what was being said, it didn't "make sense" to me until you started on the second tier. Parts of it reminded me of chakras, and a few other systems I've read about. However, the idea of a spiral, and not "burning your developmental bridges" is a concept that I really found intriguing.

[heretic888]

yes, Wilber gave chakric 'parallels' with these....

Chakra 1: beige

Chakra 2: purple

Chakra 3: red and blue

Chakra 4: orange and green

Chakra 5: yellow, turqoise, and 'psychic' (shamanism/nature mysticism)

Chakra 6: 'subtle' (deity mysticism/archetypal mysticism)

Chakra 7: 'causal' (formless mysticism)

'Beyond' Chakra 7: 'nondual' (integral mysticism)

There are, of course, parallels in other systems... such as Jean Piaget's and Abraham Maslow's. Its rather alarming how 'coincidental' all these different developmental models are at points....

[Voltron]

Most impressive

[Tokka-B]

Ummm, how did they decide what colors to use and what things they represent? :-? :roll:

[Kali]

Anybody can tell you that colors evoke emotions and thoughts. Red, Yellow, Blue, they all effect us in different ways. Maybe not consciously, but definitely subconsciously. We all know Red is a very strong color, we think of strength, anger, passion, power. Blue is calming. Yellow is sunny, happy, and full of energy.

These color archtypes have been around for centuries.

[heretic888]

Ummm, how did they decide what colors to use and what things they represent?

Most often, it was symbolic. Blue, resonating with the uniform of police officers, was chosen for 'truth and order' types. Beige, resonating with the color of skin and dirt, is chosen for the instinctual type. And so on.

Anybody can tell you that colors evoke emotions and thoughts. Red, Yellow, Blue, they all effect us in different ways. Maybe not consciously, but definitely subconsciously. We all know Red is a very strong color, we think of strength, anger, passion, power. Blue is calming. Yellow is sunny, happy, and full of energy.

These color archtypes have been around for centuries.

Well, Kali, that is partially true. It is true that these colors have different psychological effects and are associated with different archetypes, but not in the Spiral Dynamics system. The real color archetypes are found in the chakra system: chakra 1 is red, chakra 2 is orange, chakra 3 is yellow, chakra 4 is green, chakra 5 is blue, chakra 6 is violet, and chakra 7 is indigo/black/white. The colors in the Spiral Dynamic system were chosen for symbolic purposes only and have no archetypal resonations.

[Tokka-B]

Yea, but what if someone thinks black is passionate and pink is rage and blue is instinct and stuff, this all sounds like mere opinions to me... :roll:

[heretic888]

Yea, but what if someone thinks black is passionate and pink is rage and blue is instinct and stuff, this all sounds like mere opinions to me...

Very simply, just because one THINKS something is a certain way doesn't change reality. The color red, for example, has specific impacts on one's unconscious/subconscious mind. There are many reasons for this, most of which are probably biologic in nature.

The colors, in the chakric systems, are often used as meditation tools. If you contemplate red, along with specific breathing forms and hand postures, it may 'activate' chakra 1. These colors aren't pick and choose here. Green works for chakra 4 meditation, it doesn't work for chakra 1.

In addition, to those that can actually 'see' chakras and auras and the like, it becomes quickly obvious the colors associated with these chakras have quite literal connotations. Your 'aura' is actually the color of the associated chakra, a very interesting phenomena.

[heretic888]

in any event, this thread is about the integral theory above not the colors. if someone wants to discuss the importance of these archetypal colors in the human psyche and whatnot, please start another thread....

[Tokka-B]

Exactly, so if someone thinks about the colors the way you described them, that doesn't make it any more true, so that knocks your stance down too... There are no emotions that SHOULD be compared with the colors you stated, it is all opinion. :roll:

[heretic888]

Exactly, so if someone thinks about the colors the way you described them, that doesn't make it any more true, so that knocks your stance down too... There are no emotions that SHOULD be compared with the colors you stated, it is all opinion.

Ugh.... I think you missed my point. Meditating on 'green' doesn't create whatever psychological effect you want. This is not 'My Ego is Lord of the Universe' as many people seem to think it is. All these meditations, all these archetypal colors, have very SPECIFIC and EXACT effects on the human psyche. These effects are grounded in human physiology, which is relatively unchanging and universal.

Meditating on 'green' activates chakra 4. Its that simple. There is no room for interpretation here. Just because someone THINKS it does something different does not make it true. I assure you, if that person tries to meditate on 'green' it won't go do anything but channel chakra 4 energies.

Again, the Spiral Dynamics system does not use archetypal colors. Its color system is symbolic in nature ('blue' being associated with authority, for example)--often drawing upon popular culture references. The archetypal colors are rather universal to humans, not culturally dependent.

[Tokka-B]

Nope, I might think Blue for volcanos and firestorms and such, while someone might think red as calm, thinking, and such....green could be thought of as the underworld, it is still a matter of opinion, sorry but face the facts, lol.

[heretic888]

Nope, I might think Blue for volcanos and firestorms and such, while someone might think red as calm, thinking, and such....green could be thought of as the underworld, it is still a matter of opinion, sorry but face the facts, lol.


And I might think the world is flat, but it doesn't make it so. Remember, the ego is not the Mighty Lord of the Universe. :roll:

I am referring to the archetypal resonations of these colors, very similar to Plato's divine Forms and Pythagoras's sacred Numbers. By contemplating a certain color or image, with specific breathing and focusing exercises, a SPECIFIC psychological transformation can occur. This is not something open to discussion. 'Green' (as archetype) has a specific effect, as does 'red' and 'yellow', etc, etc, etc....

There is a BIG difference between consciously associating a color with an adjective, which is basically a 'mind trick' used for memory linkages, and activating archetypal chakric transformative energies. What I am talking about transcends individual minds. It is something universal to all of humanity. The 'memory links', however, are unique to the individual psyche.

[Tokka-B]

so since my opinion doesn't make it true, neither do the chakra things....so any color can be any relation

[heretic888]

*sigh*

Aright, you're not even using coherent logic now, so i'm gonna step outta this one.....

And, as i said before, this thread is about integral theory not color associations. If you want to talk about the color archetypes please start another thread.

[Tokka-B]

well, seems no one is talking about the theory, so that is why i brought up color association...color association is plain dumb...it is responsible for the racism we know today... :evil:

[heretic888]

what??? oh man, you are so far off base.......

[Peanut]

Tokka don't get out of control again.

[Tokka-B]

Oh no guys, watch out, that guy tokka is disagreeing again, so out of control!!!!

Oh geez, stop the whining, I am allowed to disagree and if that means arguing my opinion out til the end, I will...

Anyway, I don't follow the same racist guidelines as you do heretic, so I don't think we are transmitting through the same wavelength....

[heretic888]

racist??? i truly do not understand your logic......

[Tokka-B]

Yes, racist....with all the color association, that is just plain wrong...... :x :roll: :evil:

[kyabetsu]

heretic...

any and all of my concerns about the classification of the first tier memes and the relative percentages of world populations that you'd assigned to them look a bit moot now that i've finished your dissertation.


The second tier thinking seems to say that regardless of the PREVALENCE of each type of first tier meme, since they all function as a whole on a global scale, there is very little point in worrying about which countries are laboring under which level of developement...

so i'll skip the bit where i dissagree w/ how much ORANGE the us has currently or how much TURQUOISE there is in existence... and i'll just speak in generalities b/c the whole thing's shifting all the time anyways.

if you'll forgive my math notation... cause that just makes logic statements easier....

So you're saying that human (societal and individual consciousness) is a continuum of many DIFFERENT memes and that that continuum (C) is a function of
1. external forces and environment (x)
2. the prevailing memes of the component societies (y)
3. the memes of the individual (z)
and ... (this is the one i'm confused about) ...
4. continuum itself (C)

okay.
I. so the CONTINUUM of MEMES (second level consciousness) is a function of the concrete world around us... (natural disasters bring on the red survivalist meme, natural resource shortages lead to rationing and therefore more "governmental" BLUE control)...then our level of consciouness as a species is result of the concrete world we live in.

so continuum (C) is a function of the natural world (x)

C(x)= current world state of consciousness

II. the "natural world" is often a function of our individual societies' actions (each society being at whatever developmental meme it's reached). (wars fought alter landscapes; natural resource availbility to any group of people depends on economic structures; etc.) So the real world that shapes the continuum is a function of the COMPONENTS (first tier) of the continuum itself....

natural world (x) is a function of what our component societies (y) do as they INTERACT with the world.

C[x(y)] = current world state of consciousness

III. a COMPONENT society... composed of individuals who EACH contain the potential for ANY meme in the continuum... is shaped by the people within it.

component society (y) is a function of the individual (z)

C{x[y(z)]} = current world state of consciousness.

IV. an individual when EXPOSED to the full continuum... the WHOLE RANGE of human memes: the thoughts of Ghandi, the greenpeace pamphlets, the laws we live under, the religion we're raised in, the superstitions of childhood, and the raw needs of food, clothing, and shelter... THEN the individual, through those life experiences comes to a subconscious equalibrium... their own personal meme...

so the individual (z) is a function of the world state of consciousness...

C|x{y[z(C)]}| = current world state of consciousness.

V. at this point i can point to the object of my confusion... you've just defined something in terms of itself.

C|x{y[z(C)]}| = current world state of consciousness = C(C)...

that's not valid... it doesn't make sense... it's circular logic... a thing that is itself... well you're stuck with the problem that you can't everfind a BEGINNING... you've not got a spiral or a continuum, you've got a Mobius strip... a recursive theory with no starting point...




don't get me wrong, heretic... i see what you and Wilber are getting at... i doubt VERY much if i could make a better stab at explaining it.... but you do see that while it's a pretty good description, it's in no way a formal definition of a system... unless i missed something REALLY big... but yeah... i'm done typing now...

your turn... explain to me what i missed. how can this be a logically functional system?

[heretic888]

any and all of my concerns about the classification of the first tier memes and the relative percentages of world populations that you'd assigned to them look a bit moot now that i've finished your dissertation.


I didn't assign anything. The original theorists, Beck and Cowan, after having performed over 500 population surveys worldwide in dozens of countries, assigned the percentages. I am simply paraphrasing them.

The second tier thinking seems to say that regardless of the PREVALENCE of each type of first tier meme, since they all function as a whole on a global scale, there is very little point in worrying about which countries are laboring under which level of developement...


This is blatantly untrue. There are both healthy and pathological manifestations of each and every meme of development. And there are quite certainly many cultures out in the world today laboring under a pathological version of one of the lower memes (quite often purple or red, if we are talking about Third World countries). The goal is to embrace the healthy aspects of the memes and jettison the pathological.

so i'll skip the bit where i dissagree w/ how much ORANGE the us has currently or how much TURQUOISE there is in existence... and i'll just speak in generalities b/c the whole thing's shifting all the time anyways.


Well, regardless of whether you disagree with these percentages or not, there have been hundreds of surveys performed to come to these numbers. Have you performed any population surveys recently???

if you'll forgive my math notation... cause that just makes logic statements easier....

Actually, after having gone through your entire post, I would say your math notations complicate things horribly almost to the point of incoherence. But ok....

So you're saying that human (societal and individual consciousness) is a continuum of many DIFFERENT memes and that that continuum (C) is a function of
1. external forces and environment (x)
2. the prevailing memes of the component societies (y)
3. the memes of the individual (z)
and ... (this is the one i'm confused about) ...
4. continuum itself (C)


I don't remember ever claiming any kind of system or equation remotely similar to that. In any event, what I presented to this forum was just an INTRODUCTION to the Spiral Dynamics system. I have not given you guys the 'whole picture' of these theories by any account.

To answer some of your questions, though, Wilber posits a very interesting theory known as the 'four quadrants'. Namely, there are four major 'areas' or 'quadrants' of human evolution: 1) the interior of the individual, the subjective, the intentional (this generally tracks the evolution of individual consciousness); 2) the interior of the collective, the intersubjective, the cultural (this generally tracks the evolution of worldviews and cultures); 3) the exterior of the individual, the objective, the behavioral (this generally tracks the biological evolution of the individual organism, particularly the brain); and 4) the exterior of the collective, the interobjective, the social (this generally tracks the social, economic, and technological evolution of a group).

These four quadrants are all different 'lines' of human evolution which are RELATIVELY independent of one another (meaning, a society could be 'orange meme' in socio-economic development but only 'red meme' in cultural development, such as with Nazi Germany). There is no big 'continuum' that is a manifestation of all these quadrants. They are all relatively independent of one another.

so the CONTINUUM of MEMES (second level consciousness) is a function of the concrete world around us... (natural disasters bring on the red survivalist meme, natural resource shortages lead to rationing and therefore more "governmental" BLUE control)...then our level of consciouness as a species is result of the concrete world we live in.

No, not necessarily. This all depends which 'quadrant' you are referring to (intentional, behavioral, cultural, or social). But remember, two of the quadrants deal with INTERIOR development. The two others deal with EXTERIOR development.

In any event, I think both 'nurture' and 'nature' have a say here....

the "natural world" is often a function of our individual societies' actions (each society being at whatever developmental meme it's reached). (wars fought alter landscapes; natural resource availbility to any group of people depends on economic structures; etc.) So the real world that shapes the continuum is a function of the COMPONENTS (first tier) of the continuum itself....

No, not necessarily. There is much more to your 'natural world' than the summation of individual actions.

an individual when EXPOSED to the full continuum... the WHOLE RANGE of human memes: the thoughts of Ghandi, the greenpeace pamphlets, the laws we live under, the religion we're raised in, the superstitions of childhood, and the raw needs of food, clothing, and shelter... THEN the individual, through those life experiences comes to a subconscious equalibrium... their own personal meme...

No, yet again. Most individuals are not exposed to the thinking of the 'whole range' of the Spiral. And, even if they are, they are most often 'stuck' at a particular meme at a relatively young age. Being exposed to the thinking of different memes won't necessarily change anything. A Christian fundamentalist (blue meme) could read a little Socrates (orange to green meme), but he'll still be blue meme at the end of the day.

that's not valid... it doesn't make sense... it's circular logic... a thing that is itself... well you're stuck with the problem that you can't everfind a BEGINNING... you've not got a spiral or a continuum, you've got a Mobius strip... a recursive theory with no starting point...


I don't mean to be rude here, but there are several flaws in your analysis.

First off, even though the second tier transcends yet includes the junior levels, second tier is NOT another name for the Spiral itself. It is one (rather, two) meme(s) within the Spiral. It is not some kind of 'continuum'.

Two, your 'math equation' of what constitutes the entire Spiral (the 'continuum') is entirely your own. I posited no such system or elements in these theories.

Three, your analysis of these individual elements that make up your own 'math equation' are also entirely your own and have little, if anything, to do with the Spiral Dynamics system I have introduced the forum to. I for example, posit both nature AND nurture. You only emphasize nurture.

Four, making this into some kind of math equation in any form just complicates things. There is a saying in the military: KISS-- keep it simple, stupid. :roll: (just jokin' :D )

In any event, thank you for taking the time to read through the thread and I welcome your response.

[Tokka-B]

agreed, agreed, AGREEEED! :|

[heretic888]

uhhh....right.

[kyabetsu]

Yes, racist....with all the color association, that is just plain wrong...... :x :roll: :evil:

tokka... not three posts ago, you were calling Herri a racist and belligerantly ignoring or simply unable to grasp the main point of the discussion... now while it's evident that i've not got a CRYSTAL CLEAR grasp on what Herri's tryin' to SAY, i've gotta wonder if you could say what it is that you're agreeing to..?


anyways... herri...
i'll post more of a discussion post later, but just as a side note, do you realize how condescending you made all that sound? Having never read this theory, i can only ask questions based on my understanding of what you've posted. so. if there's stuff that you didn't say (ie. there were actually surveys taken), then i couldn't know that.

so provided you can leave the comments where you talk down to me like i didn't bother to read ANY of your actual posts out of the discussion, i'll more than happily bring my thoughts to this thread.

if i some how offended you in my posts, then i'm sorry it sounded that way, i meant no disrespect.

[Tokka-B]

No need to bring back a flame war and start trouble, lets just leave it as is...

[heretic888]

i'll post more of a discussion post later, but just as a side note, do you realize how condescending you made all that sound?

well, im sorry if it came across that way (it was unintentional). but i do believe that math equation you created really made things too complicated. but, to answer your general post above, the individual components you used to make up the math equation were not anything I mentioned. it was largely of your own design.

Having never read this theory, i can only ask questions based on my understanding of what you've posted. so. if there's stuff that you didn't say (ie. there were actually surveys taken), then i couldn't know that.

Sorry 'bout that. I can't post EVERYTHING about the theories in a few short messages. What I have given you is just an introduction...

so provided you can leave the comments where you talk down to me like i didn't bother to read ANY of your actual posts out of the discussion, i'll more than happily bring my thoughts to this thread.

Well, if you think I insulted you, I'm sorry it was unintentional. I don't think I did, anyways....

[Kameko]

*slaps forehead*

[kyabetsu]

goodness no, tokka! no flame war at all. i just wanted you to expand on your opinion. please, tell us. what is it you agree so strongly with?

[Tokka-B]

NO, it will just start a flame war, just let it rest so nothing will happen, I don't want anymore trouble on these boards, sheesh.

[kyabetsu]

okay tokka. if you say so. consider it dropped.

hey herri,
okay! sorry i misunderstood. glad to hear there's no hard feelings. gimme a little more time. it's a bad night for long, thinking posts... heh. real life bites sometimes, don't it?

[Voltron]

Heretic, I've got to say there is something different about you. I think it's the nickname "Herri". thus I've decided that I to, would become more lovable if I were given a sweet and adorable nickname such as Volty, or better yet, LORD OF ALL THAT WAS, IS, AND EVER SHALL BE: VOLTRONUS QUINCITECIMAL DRAGULAT! My full name could act as my nickname! Give it a try.

Frankly, my eyes bleed when I read the racism comment. I can't believe you could find away to equate hate with this subject.

[Tokka-B]

Forgive me for not wanting racism corrupting the boards Voltron.... :roll:

[heretic888]

i have no earthly idea how you are getting racism out of any of this....

[Kameko]

Is it just me, or is this conversation going precisely nowhere?

[Tokka-B]

I called it, this thread would start a flamewar, and it seems it has, I'd advise any knowledgebles out there to avoid this and let it go, as it is being discussed by only a few people and not often...

[Kali]

Tokka, this hasn't become a flamewar. And if it has, it's only because YOU started it. It's been said before, you are NOT a moderator! You have no say in what people can and cannot discuss on this board. If you do not want to discuss this, then stay out of the thread. Krang warned you, if you continue to cause disturbances like this, you're going to get your warnings back, and maybe then some.

If we wish to discuss this, we can, it's not hurting anyone. We're not forcing anyone who doesn't want to participate. We're not insulting anyone. The other posters know enough to stay away from topics they don't like/understand.

[Tokka-B]

Ok, explain to me how I started this....the only thing I can find is me trying to stop this from happening, but now everyone is arguing again. Don't get so uptight, your just a mod, sheesh, you are no god. Just take it easy.... :wink: