Tales of the TMNT #69

[oldmanwinters]

"Dark Shadows" by Dan Berger
Released April 21, 2010

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/slimer2erasmus/TMNT/tales69.jpg

I realize that we already had one thread (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=29372) discussing speculation about this issue, but I figured since it is already up to about 5 pages of information, we might as well close that thread and start a new one. I'm sure a Moderator can merge them if they deem that more convenient.

EDIT:
I'm posting this after getting through the first 17 pages. And... holy cow. Such intense revelations forced me to take a half time break!

Can't wait for the TMNT Entity (http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/) review. This has to be A+! Well, to be fair I guess I ought to finish the issue before giving it that grade. This is the one issue I've been chomping at the bits for since it the story information was released.

[Powder]

My copy is en route with mom dukes! She went out to score taco bell and luckily my comic shop is right up the road from it! Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah!

[oldmanwinters]

Well.... I just finished the last few pages....

"Life at best is bittersweet," pretty much sums it up.

Final Grade: A+ (You hear me, Spengs? :trazz:)
Dan Berger has never disappointed me.
But so many questions that will never be answered. And that, in itself, is a tragedy.

EDIT: Oops! I almost forgot to go back and read Dan's introduction!
Looks like some questions are better off left to the imagination.

[CyberCubed]

I haven't looked at the spoilers, but people please, don't post the events of this issue in other threads.

Meaning I don't want to come across a spoiler from this story posted in a different thread, such as discussing the mirage timeline or something.

Keep your spoilers marked!

[Roseangelo]

The stuff in the spoiler quotes aren't even spoilers. Honestly, I don't get the point of those comments at all unless they're elaborated on, which probably would then require spoiler quotes.

I probably won't get this until next week, but definitely looking forward to it.

[oldmanwinters]

The stuff in the spoiler quotes aren't even spoilers. Honestly, I don't get the point of those comments at all unless they're elaborated on, which probably would then require spoiler quotes.

I probably won't get this until next week, but definitely looking forward to it.

Just raising the suspense! I wanted to elaborate on the spoilers but that would require more spoilers.

Plus:
Dan himself wanted the comic's introduction saved until after the issue had been read, so seeing as how I pretty much echoed what he said in the intro in my 2nd spoiler, I figured some spoilers would be fitting. ;-D

[Powder]

I just finished it. I Really dug it. Can't lie I was kinda hoping for a more 'heartfelt' 'goodbye' introduction in the beginning but I suppose I'm glad that didn't happen... woulda been pretty sad. Great ending, good art/writing as per usual. I may elaborate after more people have read it.

[Andrew NDB]

Quite the issue, amazing.

I could be wrong, but most of the future we've seen beyond this point would seem to cement what happens here as the alternate timeline the ending sort of drives it home as.

But elements of it may still happen... perhaps she blinded Donatello at some point?

[Andrew NDB]

Also, the final act reminds me a lot of my Tales pitch a couple of years ago... with Renet time-travelling with Raphael to lament his future self and what he becomes:

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=24831

[oldmanwinters]

Also, the final act reminds me a lot of my Tales pitch a couple of years ago... with Renet time-travelling with Raphael to lament his future self and what he becomes:

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=24831

That's a pretty good story pitch! You think Dan might have been reading it?:)


But elements of it may still happen... perhaps she blinded Donatello at some point?

I was thinking the same thing!

[Powder]

I kinda **** brix when I saw the pin up in the back cause...

...in my eyes, this picture was finally given a story to accompany it, though not originally drawn by Berger. http://i41.tinypic.com/23kd7d0.jpg

[Cipher]

To hell with you guys and your coyness. I won't be picking this up until after school lets out, and I want spoilers now.

[oldmanwinters]

To hell with you guys and your coyness. I won't be picking this up until after school lets out, and I want spoilers now.

Well, fortunately Tristan Jones won't be punched in the mouth (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=764484&postcount=63) since the story is not a dream...

It turns out the main story of Shadow journaling her life-or-death mission to find her "sensei", i.e., Raphael so that she can confront him verbally and physically in light of a vaguely described feud involving what Shadow did to Donatello at some point was really just Renet showing Raphael what the highest probable outcome of his decision to train teenage Shadow in ninjitsu will lead to. The other option is that he doesn't train Shadow and she likely dies at 23 by the hand of a Foot Mystic. He returns to the present to find Casey and Shadow training. He suggests he become her sensei. Likely setting into motion a dark fate that will claim his own left eye.
Back with Lord Simultaneous, Renet mourns.

This was such a jarring coda to Shadow's storyline after seeing her as the cute little preschooler in Tales #67. I love the contrast.

[Cipher]

This was such a jarring coda to Shadow's storyline after seeing her as the cute little preschooler in Tales #67. I love the contrast.Well, it wouldn't be Mirage if the Turtles got a happy ending.

Thanks for laying out the plot. I categorically cannot wait to pick this up.

[oldmanwinters]

Well, it wouldn't be Mirage if the Turtles got a happy ending.

Thanks for laying out the plot. I categorically cannot wait to pick this up.

No prob, there are oodles more surprising revelations in this issue concerning the Mirage time line, with so many new questions likely never to be answered!

[DrSpengler]

My Review. (http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2010/04/tales-of-tmnt-vol-2-69.html)

Excellent issue that remarked upon so many of my personal concerns with Shadow as a character that I felt Berger was reading my mind.

[oldmanwinters]

My Review. (http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2010/04/tales-of-tmnt-vol-2-69.html)

Excellent issue that remarked upon so many of my personal concerns with Shadow as a character that I felt Berger was reading my mind.

Hey, I never noticed all the TMNT trinkets in Renet's room until you pointed that out, Spengs! Was that Raph's one-eyed bear on the couch?

Speaking of the Mirage Timeline, if we assume the future events of this issue are canon, would you place this issue's swamp scene before the epilogue scene of "A Day in the Life" (Tales #55)?

[Ninjinister]

S***, this seems heavy. Definitely going to pick it up.

[willtupper]

He won't get punched in the mouth THIS TIME!!!

If the next volume of the turtle comic starts out with all the stories from the past volumes being one big dream, rest assured my dear sir. THE PUNCH IS STILL COMING! :D

Well, fortunately Tristan Jones won't be punched in the mouth (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=764484&postcount=63) since the story is not a dream...

[Ninjinister]

He won't get punched in the mouth THIS TIME!!!

If the next volume of the turtle comic starts out with all the stories from the past volumes being one big dream, rest assured my dear sir. THE PUNCH IS STILL COMING! :D

How about you just "Poke" him on Facebook?

[willtupper]

Filthy. Just filthy.

Although now I'm kind of disappointed that Facebook doesn't have a "punch" feature.

And furthermore...

Will Tupper "likes" this Forum post :D.

How about you just "Poke" him on Facebook?

[willtupper]

Oh hi, everybody. When did you get here? :D

Just to add a bit of relevant information to this DEEP and MEANINGFUL discussion, Midtown Comics (www.midtowncomics.com) has Tales #69 (huh, huh) listed as dropping THIS Wednesday, April 28th.

So all the rest of us will hopefully get it then. Yay! Because I'm really looking forward to this issue. I think Mr. Berger is a HYPER-underrated writer, and I've always been fond of Shadow as a character.

Will be bittersweet, though. But so it goes.

[Ninjinister]

Bittersweet, hell. It's downright f***ing depressing.

I found at least six times where I felt like I'd been punched in the gut.

[Powder]

Bittersweet, hell. It's downright f***ing depressing.

I found at least six times where I felt like I'd been punched in the gut.

Whats really depressing is how little the amount of people posting about the second to last issue is.

:/

[Vivi]

I haven't checked in the city if it's in yet, but being international it may be a while. Already I'm burning with the question...

What did Shadow do to Donatello?

[The Big Bad]

Wow, Berger's been on a roll, lately--they should sell the TMNT more often. :P

While I initially found the issue to be a tad wagnsty (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Wangst), it's the sort of thing which gets better with re-reading.

Random thoughts:

I was initially bothered by the fact that the "present day" scene is obviously meant to take place during Shadow's early teenage years, since we've never really seen Raph take an active role in Shadow's training; however, once I remembered that Raph is always the one that appears in the early Shadow stories, and the continuity makes a bit more sense. It also adds a new layer of subtext to all of them. However, it also adds a few complications, such as the fact that Raph apparently knew of the Utrom arrival years before it happened.

Like Raph losing an eye, the world eventually getting crapsacked by global warming now seems to be turning into a consistent thing across incarnations (except, markedly, the 2k3 cartoon). I actually quite like it.

A moment of fridge brilliance: while it initially seemed a bit weird to have...

...the Utroms introduce intergalactic trade to a planet heading towards extinction, upon thinking about it, it makes a lot more sense: humans would be a lot more receptive towards relocation if they'd already interacted with other alien worlds.

Given how the reader's sympathy for Shadow... ...rests almost entirely on the fact that he or she doesn't know what she did, I wonder if revealing how people would feel if it were revealed that her actions were indeed just as bad as everyone hints. After all, Don could just have been the beginning...

[Cipher]

So, I won't have the issue for a little while, but knowing the basics, I can at least ask a few "What the future?" kind of questions.

So, the ending rather strongly implies that these events do come to pass in some form or another, and that's backed up by what images of the future are explained. So how does it affect each little glimpse, either in terms of support or contradictions? In my opinion ...

Supports:

Donatello being blind in the Tales Collected Book (assuming Shadow did it). Raph at the end of #55, complete with Michelangelo being missing (as in, he relocated with the Utroms).

Contradicts:

#40 and #41, unless people have started to return to Earth by 2066. That could work, as Tokyo still seems rather post-apacolyptic in #40. But Leo's living in a pretty pristine world in #41, so who knows?

[oldmanwinters]

Supports:

Donatello being blind in the Tales Collected Book (assuming Shadow did it). Raph at the end of #55, complete with Michelangelo being missing (as in, he relocated with the Utroms).

Contradicts:

#40 and #41, unless people have started to return to Earth by 2066. That could work, as Tokyo still seems rather post-apacolyptic in #40. But Leo's living in a pretty pristine world in #41, so who knows?

I'm pretty curious myself...

As far as the epilogue in Tales 55 goes, I am a bit puzzled, since Raph has his eye patch in that story. The logical explanation is that he remains in the swamp after the loss of his eye and eventually grows insane, but I suppose it's possible he made another trip back to New York or something like that. Clearly he tracks down Karai and the foot after the loss of his eye, so perhaps it really does make sense for Raph to travel after the loss of his eye until he returns to the swamp for good and goes off the deep end.

Regarding the future Leo story in 41, I don't think Tales 69 requires the assumption that every major earth city is flooded beyond repair, although perhaps Utrom technology could have resurrected the habitual environment of the planet at some point.

This looks like a job for... Super Spengs!

[Cipher]

Regarding the future Leo story in 41, I don't think Tales 69 requires the assumption that every major earth city is flooded beyond repair, although perhaps Utrom technology could have resurrected the habitual environment of the planet at some point.But the planet looks extremely populated in that issue. It'd have to be well after any disaster.

Logical conclusion is that the relocation is temporary. Raph's primitive period as we see it in #69 and #55 is temporary as well until the world starts to repopulate, although he may return to it in old age as well.

That is, as far as I can see, the only way to keep #40 and #41 in continuity. And it's not a huge stretch.

Raph loses eye ----> Cameo in #55 -----> World begins to repopulate by 2066 and events of #40 occur, -----> Events of #41 occur, all taking place after 2066, as Leo looks middle-aged even in his earliest appearence in that issue

[oldmanwinters]

That is, as far as I can see, the only way to keep #40 and #41 in continuity. And it's not a huge stretch.


Heh... I wouldn't mind retconing Tales #41 to one of those "improbable" alternate futures. :P

Whats really depressing is how little the amount of people posting about the second to last issue is.
:/

You also have to remember that not everyone will have a chance to get it until this week.

[Cipher]

Heh... I wouldn't mind retconing Tales #41 to one of those "improbable" alternate futures.Why does no one else understand how awesome that issue is once you get over the (implied) Turtle/human romance? Plus it fills in information given to us as far back as "Loops."

And writing off any of the future issues as an alternate timeline now would just be hella lame. One of the best things about the series is that where any other comic would've said, "This is only a possibility," Turtles keeps showing us depressing glimpses of the future and saying, "Yeah, this is just what happens. Sh*t's rough." Anything else would be a cop-out.

[oldmanwinters]

once you get over the (implied) Turtle/human romance?

Eh... I guess that's the thing. For me anyway. :tconfuse:

I will admit that the general themes of vengeance vs. forgiveness are intriguing in that issue. I'd like to see the non-violent Leo's journey to enlightenment explored a bit more, but it seems we've run out of issues.

[The Big Bad]

Yeah, I'm with Cypher: Tales #41 is awesome, and one of my favorite issues in the series.

The problem with its conflicting accounts accounts of the future is that the cities described in and #41 are all places that would be very much affected by global warming; San Francisco, Hong Kong...one would assume these places would be deep-sixed by any global catastrophe. Still, a competent enough fanwanker could still try to reconcile both accounts.

[discordiatookie]

Whats really depressing is how little the amount of people posting about the second to last issue is.

:/

Trying so hard not to click on the spoilers. Reason I ain't in here yet is because:

Firstly the question you all want answered is what the hell is going on with deliveries? Well we've only had a book restock so far this week, due to disruption of flights with volcanic activity in Iceland. Happily since then the flight embargo has been lifted, and we expect delivery on Tuesday. Equally happily, the delivery will include the FCBD stock, so that should go ahead as planned. In the meantime we have a sale event for you tomorrow to make up for all the missing stock.

Effin volcano in Iceland messing with my comic shop! Aaargh! So comics should be here tomorrow, although I won't get there til the end of the week now.

[plastroncafe]

Whats really depressing is how little the amount of people posting about the second to last issue is.

:/

I'm with Discordiatookie, I'm sure I'll have something to say once I have the book in hand, but for some reason my local comic shop doesn't seem to get stuff until a week after everyone else.

[TristanHuwJones]

I think this is ultimately where the biggest problem lies with the comics -- the seeming lack of collaboration. Back when it was just Murphy writing (pretty much), it wasn't so much of a problem, because a lot of the material was his and it linked together, or it was by other people linking into previous TMNT canon. A big problem, at least from my standpoint when I was writing for Mirage, was the lack of collaboration when it came to cross-checking stories with other writers. I could be wrong, but that's just the vibe I took. It felt like no-one really knew what was happening with other books they weren't involved in in a writing capacity, and didn't really know until it either came out or it hit the editing stage, which in some cases, may have been too late to adjust certain stories to make them fit into the grander scheme of things. For instance, when I was writing the Gang Wars stories, if I had've known about Dan's Madhattan Maulitia story, I would've tweaked mine a bit to accommodate those events. Same with Ryan's sequel to #50, and a few other stories. It's not some kind of EPIC gripe, because I still love the books and everyone who worked on them, and had the time of my life on them, I just think the books would've probably worked a touch better if everyone knew what everyone was doing. I know Dan tried to get this to work as time went on, and that it was a hard thing to do as well. I also don't mean to imply that nobody cared either, I think it's just that everyone was kind of into their own stories and the approval process meant it was harder to work things like that, and in my mind, that slight lack of creative cohesion meant we had some disjointed stories.

Regarding #41, I know when we were going over the timeline for the Mirage Universe sourcebook, there were some stories that were being "ignored" to an extent for a number of reasons, but largely because of really conflicting information. #41 was one of them... there were a couple of others, but I can't recall them off the top of my head... a few from Vol.1 and maybe one or two from Tales Vol.2...

[willtupper]

I loved it! Even the

open-ended question of, what ultimately happened?

The deus ex machina of them going "Back to the Future," which is usually something I hate, actually felt natural and honest here.

Just great writing, all around. I think Dan & Murph really wrote the best character-driven stories of the series.

And it's sad that they're rarely (if ever) recognized for this.

[Venom]

I loved it! Even

The deus ex machina of them going "Back to the Future," which is usually something I hate, actually felt natural and honest here.

Felt my flux capacitor fluxing so I had to post. :D

Anyway, I whole-heartedly agree with the sentiments regarding Berger and Murph.

[willtupper]

1.21 Gigawatts! :)

felt my flux capacitor fluxing so i had to post. :d

[Coola Yagami]

Great scott!!!

[Raph's Girl]

I just have to say about this issue... WOW!.... This at least answers how Raph lost his eye. But man. Poor Raph. The knowledge he has of a possable future where Shadow seemingly betrays the family.... ugh...But what happened to Don? Did she kill him in a fit of rage or did she blind him with her katana? And Raph giving Shadow that scar is similar to what Leo did to Cha Ocho.

[oldmanwinters]

I thought it was interesting that...

Cha Ocho and Raph appear to continue their alliance formed in Tales of the TMNT #27 even into old age.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I thought it was interesting that...

Cha Ocho and Raph appear to continue their alliance formed in Tales of the TMNT #27 even into old age.

Not me. They are very similar. I'd even go so far as to say that they are as similar as Raph and Casey are.

I finally got this, haven't read it yet though :tlol:

[discordiatookie]

My comic shop didn't have this in last week. Sometimes they are a week behind. Sigh.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

My comic shop didn't have this in last week. Sometimes they are a week behind. Sigh.

Hence why I prefer ordering online. This was probably the best Berger story I've ever read. Does anyone have his e-mail address?

Everything in this issue made perfect sense to me, except we still don't know what happened between Don and Shadow.

[Cipher]

I thought it was interesting that...

Cha Ocho and Raph appear to continue their alliance formed in Tales of the TMNT #27 even into old age.I'm just glad he shows up again period. I think he's as criminally underused a character as Complete Carnage, and probably the best villain-ish character to come out of the post-2002 comics.

[willtupper]

Reread it tonight, and wanted to mention a moment that just blew me away...

The way Dan laid-out Page 28, the blocking, the pacing - whatever you want to call it - is just one of the best moments I've ever experienced in comics. To have a silent panel (Leo's eyes shut, lost in concentration) actually slow my reading speed, pulling me even deeper into what I was reading... just amazing. Kudos to you, Mr. Berger, for a job done great. :D

[PAAATE]

Got it in the mail today. FANTASTIC!

This just makes me sad Tales is ending :(

[ToTheNines]

Great story, love me some Berger.

Like Spengler said, it was awesome how Shadow addressed her lame gothic phase and being cold to April.

One gripe: Shadow killed by a Foot Mystic at 23? But... truce? I dunno, maybe something goes apesh*t with the Warriors of Perfect Virtue.

[discordiatookie]

Well, that was certainly something special. Wow. Totally not what I was expecting, especially

the time travelling aspect.

You can stick me in the camp of believing that

Shadow blinded Donatello, and didn't actually kill him.

Although that is sheer speculation.

I love that

Shadow has became such a bad ass ninja, even the Foot Elite are terrified of her. Well I say love, but it doesn't end very well for her, (or the others). Good old rage, killing the bonds that tie families together!

Amazing art from Berger, and some lovely, very sad but awesome storytelling also. Loved it.

[funatic]

One gripe: Shadow killed by a Foot Mystic at 23? But... truce? I dunno, maybe something goes apesh*t with the Warriors of Perfect Virtue.

I think the foot mystics have always been operating outside the truce, an anti-Splinter splinter cell on a mission to avenge the Shredder, who are unassociated with Karai - at least that's what issues like Tales v2 2 & 11 led me to believe.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I think the foot mystics have always been operating outside the truce, an anti-Splinter splinter cell on a mission to avenge the Shredder, who are unassociated with Karai - at least that's what issues like Tales v2 2 & 11 led me to believe.

I am definitely going to read those two issues again, and I'll probably have to PM you because you obviously picked up on something that I missed.

[ToTheNines]

I think the foot mystics have always been operating outside the truce, an anti-Splinter splinter cell on a mission to avenge the Shredder, who are unassociated with Karai - at least that's what issues like Tales v2 2 & 11 led me to believe.

I'm pretty sure Karai had Foot Mystics under her control in the Valentine's issue.

But you are right, there's rouge foot running around but not anywhere near the Volume 4 portion of the time-line.

[discordiatookie]

there's rouge foot running around

This gave me so many images in my head, I actually burst out laughing.

[Venom]

Hehehe, rogue and lose, two of the most commonly misspelled words today. :P

[CyberCubed]

Spoilers for anyone who still didn't read this yet...

...

So why are people bringing up the idea this is an alternate timeline?

As far as I can tell, this fits in perfectly with all the "future turtles" stories they've done, and brings development to Shadow and Cha Ocho's characters, as well as explains Don's situation in the Tales pieces, Raph's eyepatch, and Leo living on Earth, whereas Mike probably isn't.

This pretty much wrapped everything perfectly.

[Venom]

The way Renet presents the situation to Raph implies it is an alternate future, albeit the most likely one. If Raph chose not to train Shadow she would more than likely be killed by a member of the Foot at 23.

The present is left ambiguous on purpose to show while Raph realizes what the future probably holds, he still makes the choice to train Shadow so she may live.

The ending is pretty poignant, knowing that Renet shed tears over the Turtles' lives and knowing how things turn out for them.

I really like Renet, wish she had been used more.

[CyberCubed]

Something tells me that after reading this issue, Dan Berger could have quickly gone an issue of Tales giving Volume 4 a quick recap ending, thus pulling everything together.

If I ever had to put someone in charge of giving closure to the Mirage Universe, Dan Berger would be it.

[John Pannozzi]

Reading this issue was more emotionally intense than any other comic book I had read up to that point.

Then, over the this week, I read Scott Pilgrim, and felt even more emotionally invested, and also spiritually enlightened if that make any sense.

At the risk of sounding obvious, does anyone else think the future Shadow's bloodlust can be seen as some kind of statement on how killing someone as profession, whether as a soldier or an assassin , can turn a person into something truly ugly. I wonder what it says about Raph that his "gakusei" became an uncontrollable killing machine, wheras Raph's own sensei managed to raise four fairly decent people, er, turtles into the world, even if he was driven by revenge.

[CommandoJamie7]

*Sigh* I just wish we knew what happened to Mikey.