Why do you think the series had such a hard time moving on from Shredder?

[CyberCubed]

I remember way back in 2003 when the new show was first starting, Peter Laird promised fans Shredder wouldn't be defeated in every single episode like he was in the old toon, (which was true), but also that Shredder would eventually be finished off and they'd move on to new villains.

But...that never really happened. Ch'rell was the main villain for Seasons 1-3. Then we had Karai as Lady Shredder in Season 4. Then Demon Shredder in Season 5. Then Shredder in 1 ep of FF. Then Cyber Shredder in Season 7. Then Shredder in "Turtles Forever."

Shredder was the main villain of the 2k3 series, same with the original 80's cartoon. Do you think the 4kids writers felt like the show would lose interest in little kids if there wasn't a Shredder in the series?

[Powder]

Well, we had a break with Fast Forward... but that hardly counts as "moving on to new villains" in the big picture. I suppose he's "The greatest evil" & without him everyone else comes off as less threatening and/or insignificant. Also you could say that Shredder was a cash cow villain in the original series (and we all know cartoons mostly serve to be 22 min. toy ads).

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Read the later Archie TMNT Adventures comics if you want more stories where the TMNT kick the butt of other guys and girls than Shredder. Or watch the season 4-6 (1990-1992) solo adventures of the 1987 TMNT cartoon.

But I agree the 2003 cartoon could have more other stories too.

[gobo]

Then Shredder in 1 ep of FF.
"Timing Is Everything" was NOT ep 1.

EDIT: Oh, I read that all dyslexic. :sweatdro:

[BubblyShell22]

Probably because Shredder is the main villain in the TMNT universe. However, they did have other villains in 2K3 which made it better. If it had just been the Shredder as the villain it would've gotten boring.

[ToTheNines]

Are you serious? Batman/Joker... Superman/Luthor... Fantastic Four/Dr. Doom...


Try again.

[Xav]

I think it would be more interesting if they had the Foot trying to avenge Shredder's death.

[Andrew NDB]

Probably because Shredder is the main villain in the TMNT universe.

Not in the core, original universe he's not.

[Coola Yagami]

I guess they felt they needed an ultimate evil, and even when Shredder was dealt with in the series, he was such a menace, it was always an big 'OH NO!!' when news hit that he might come back. Even Turtles Forever had the Turtles (and Hun) start to worry when it seemed that Shredder was coming back.

Plus, tying him into their origin, no matter how inadvertedly was a plus.

[Shark_Blade]

TMNT without Shredder, is like Sonic without Robotnik, or Harry Potter without Voldemort.

Both are the Ying and Yang, one cannot exist without the other. It doesn't feel complete or just right.

[Andrew NDB]

TMNT without Shredder, is like Sonic without Robotnik, or Harry Potter without Voldemort.

Both are the Ying and Yang, one cannot exist without the other. It doesn't feel complete or just right.

Peripherally. I mean, yes, Shredder does need to be there in some capacity, and most certainly at the beginning.

Beyond that? Not so much. But his presence can be felt beyond him actually hovering around, alive.

[Redeemer]

I see what u mean I just wish they would have stuck with one shredder and not multiple incarnations. Ecspecially cyber shredder, "I thought shredder wars would be awesome but it never even made it there."
I would have like to see more of Bishop and "Rat King".

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

TMNT without Shredder, is like Sonic without Robotnik, or Harry Potter without Voldemort.

Both are the Ying and Yang, one cannot exist without the other. It doesn't feel complete or just right.

TMNT has a more expanded number of bad guys, and many later stories work without him. I agree Shredder needs to be in the first stories, but not in every story.

[shuriken]

Peripherally. I mean, yes, Shredder does need to be there in some capacity, and most certainly at the beginning.

Beyond that? Not so much. But his presence can be felt beyond him actually hovering around, alive.

The fact that he has been dead for so long in the comics and the TMNT still feel the backlash of his death is a testament of the importance of the Shredder. In 2k3 I think it was a bit of overkill with the 5 Shredders (Utrom, Tengu, Human/Tengu, Karai, Viral). I liked the idea that Karai wanted to take up th mantle. As for the Tengu Shredder they could have just used any number of Demons to the same effect without cauging up another Shredder incarnation.

[Spitfire]

It's a series, for kids, they need one main villain. In the comic book Shredder and the Foot Clan were really the only major villains. Karai was only ever an ally that couldn't fully be trusted. In the end the only long running villain was The Foot and they're uninteresting with no leader. You really had no other main villains. Shredder impacted their lives the most in the comics hence why I see he was chosen to be the core villain of the series.

You mention he returns a lot in the series but he returned a lot in the comic as well. He came back twice, once as a worm clone and once as a shark mutant. I can see why they chose to keep bringing him back. You had the Utrom Shredder who was basically Krang and Shredder mixed into one villain. Then you had his jaded daughter, who eventually becomes a good guy. You had the Demon Shredder who was the true Shredder that the Utrom Shredder merely copied and also held the Demon Shredder' mystics hostage. Lastly you had Cyber Shredder who was a combination of Viral and the Utrom Shredder's backed up memory.

The Cyber Shredder is really the only Shredder I think is completely pointless. He only existed because the series was going "back to the sewer" and that meant bringing back the main villain because someone at 4Kids thought FF didn't do well because Shredder wasn't in it.

[Xav]

In the end the only long running villain was The Foot and they're uninteresting with no leader. Yes but why does that leader have to be Shredder?

[Shark_Blade]

Because he is the sole founder? Nothing beats the original creator.

[Shellsweet]

*shrugs* Personatly it never bothered me to have the shredder come back over and over again from seasons 1-3, and Karai becoming the shredder was a different character from the actual shredder still. And it was interesting concept to have the Tengu Shredder in the series. But after the Cyber shredder, they were pushing it.

but TMNT Had lots of other Villians in the 2k3 series. (Savanti Rameo, The Ultimate Ninja, Hun, Stockman, Bishop, Draco, Federation, Triceratons (when the Prime Leader was there) and so many others. I think they balanced the shredder out of the series, in my opinion.

But it's a kid show, I don't really try to let it get under my skin too much.

[shuriken]

You had the Demon Shredder who was the true Shredder that the Utrom Shredder merely copied and also held the Demon Shredder' mystics hostage.

But you have to admit that the Utrom Shredder had been around for a long long time, more than enough to establish a mythological fear for not only himself but the Foot. The Demon/Tengu/Oroko Saki 1.0 Shredder could have been ANY other monster/ elemental beast and used for the same effect. Hell he could have been The Dragon Lord with all of the mystic's powers for all I care. TWO Shredder's should have been enough. And yeah Oroku Saki came back twice, as a worm cone and a shark clone thing but overall he was in what like 7 Mirage comics all together?
Cyber and Demon Shredder, as much as I liked their designs, were overkill for me. I think having them in the toon just cheapens Ch'rel's character.

[Redeemer]

Because he is the sole founder? Nothing beats the original creator.

I don't think he was the original creator. It never says in the 2k3 series that I remember. But in the othe universes he is either given power or take leadership of the foot clan.

[Spitfire]

They implied pretty heavily that he was the founder in the Secret Origins story arc. As for the Demon Shredder I think they used him to show fans Shredder's true origins. Seeing the story of the real Shredder was probably the most interesting thing about that whole season.

It's funny because we see 2K3 as Shredder overload but we don't mind it too much when it comes to the Old Toon. Granted no one takes the Old Toon seriously I see a lot of fans complain about Dregg replacing Shredder and Krang for 2 seasons when those two dominated the villain slot for the 8 seasons prior.

[shuriken]

You see but that's different. There was only ONE Shredder. Plus that show was a different format I guess? Kind of like Robotnik/Eggman with Sonic. With each episode pretty much being resolved in the same episode, as opposed to a seasonlong intertwining story.

[Candy Kappa]

Because he is the sole founder? Nothing beats the original creator.

only in 2k3.
in the comic ha was only chosen to lead the NY branch of the Foot.
in the cartoon he cheated to the role of leader, but he wasn't the founder

[Prowler]

It's a strange thing, really.

In the OT we used to complain that the Turtles fought Shredder every single episode, but when we had a no Shredder episode we wanted him bad so badly since some of those no shredder episodes(especially the first ones in Season 4) were pretty bad.

And let's not even get started when Dregg replaced him.

But let's face it, without Shredder the Turtles probably have no reason to live.

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

You mention he returns a lot in the series but he returned a lot in the comic as well. He came back twice, once as a worm clone and once as a shark mutant. I can see why they chose to keep bringing him back.

Didn't the Shark Mutant thing happen during Volume 4's run? That seems like it's a pretty recent thing. If you look at the original Volume 1 (which I think had a perfect ending for the Turtles, btw), the Shredder only came back once. Well... a clone of him, anyway, as the true Shredder was dead and never coming back. But my point is that the main villain (or villains, rather) was not Shredder, but the Foot as a whole. Actually... main villain doesn't even fit there. I think a better term would be "recurring", as the original comic didn't have a main villain at all.

Gosh, I love Volume 1 so much. It's just this perfect little masterpiece with a clear cut beginning and end... sorry to get off-topic there. ^^;

[Jo Dawn]

Peripherally. I mean, yes, Shredder does need to be there in some capacity, and most certainly at the beginning.

Beyond that? Not so much. But his presence can be felt beyond him actually hovering around, alive.

I agree. Shredder was kaput early on in the original comics, and it sure didn't hurt it any. Shredder does not need to be there to make it TMNT. I think most people who think that are stuck in the OT. (No offense.)

I guess they felt they needed an ultimate evil, and even when Shredder was dealt with in the series, he was such a menace, it was always an big 'OH NO!!' when news hit that he might come back.

I never felt Shredder was the ultimate evil. In fact, I was hoping they'd pull a cool comics twist and off him once and for all. I grew tired of the continual 'Oh, he's coming back. Save us.' type thing. Boo. Off him!

Personally, in the 2K3, I felt Bastion could have been much more of a menace. They could have drawn on his pull and power in the world. They had tons of possibilities with other villains in the TMNT universe, also.

I'm not sure what word I'm looking for when I think about why they never can quite move past Shredder. Fear? Were they afraid that people themselves couldn't deal with a TMNT storyline that did not include the Shredder? Which is insulting to many of us who were looking for more than just the same old. I am unsure, however, if their decision gave the fans too little credit, or if it was right on target.

[shuriken]

who is Bastion if I may ask?
Honestly 2k3 missed the boat on a LOT of reoccuring villain eps. More Savanti and possibly his wife, Complete Carnage, Shote, More Rat King, less Karai (LOL).
I think Season 4 was one of the best due to the array of villains they faced and the stories that all connected to the post Final battle of the SHredder fight trauma of Leo. His pressence was there, but he himself wasn't.

[Venom]

who is Bastion if I may ask?

An amalgamation of Bishop and Baxter Stockman. :P