The future era of the Mirage TMNT (detailed chronolgically by me)

[DrSpengler]

Got the urge to put this together today and spent all afternoon and evening researching and writing it up:

The (mysterious) Future Era of the Mirage Universe (http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2010/07/mysterious-future-era-of-mirage.html)

I decided to gather every story that gave us a look at the mysterious future era of the TMNT and piece them together chronologically, detailing how they reference one another and where they contradict one another.


Let me know if I missed any tidbits and I'll add them in, but I think I got most everything. I *almost* forgot about the epilogue in Tales (Vol. 2) #55 until Adam Winters reminded me about it (and a good thing, too, since there's some pretty important info in there).

Anyway, the future era always confused the Hell out of me, but now that I've got it all laid out chronologically, it does offer a pretty coherent (if ocassionally contradictory) narrative.

Also, it's crazy-depressing, man.

[CyberCubed]

Really well-written article, and after reading all that, the Turtles future timeline really does make sense, doesn't it?

I guess it can be said that only parts of the world were flooded, while Japan in all versions managed to survive, as seen in the year 2060 with Raph and again in 2099 or so.

I agree that Shadow obviously blinded Donatello somehow, most likely by accident, but it caused a riff in the family. Raphael being in Tokyo in 2060 shows that he at least still travels for awhile before going insane and losing his mind. Mike is left a mystery.

And I think its also implied Donatello may be the last Turtle left alive, if that blinded Donatello and the simulation was any indication.

We can assume Casey died, and April may have very well faded to the Kirby Dimension like her other, "sisters" that failed. I guess Shadow would be an old lady herself in 2099 or dead herself.

Anyway, Mirage really did have a good story here, while leaving things open for the fans to decide. The only problem is this story is spread out through back-up stories, Tales issues, the Tales 2007 collected book, and other specials....that only the most hardcore fans probably track all this stuff down to read it coherently.

Shame there can't be a collected book that collects, "Future TMNT stories," as you've done in your article, so we can read through it coherently rather than randomly searching various issues and back-up stories.

EDIT: And I forgot to add, this is the best damn ending the Mirage universe could ever get. Even if Vol. 4 is never completed, we still know how the story, "ends" so it is still fullfilling and gives us closure.

[RossMay]

Good work, Spengs. Very good theories on your ordering, though I might not necessarily agree with all of them (for reasons below).

-I always interpreted Raphael living in the swamp was less about him being senile than going feral. Something like out of the bible with going into the wilderness and living with pain in your heart, acting like an animal. His physical faculties don't seem to have deteriorated along with his mind, though I know the two don't always go hand in hand. So I'd prefer to think that he went feral after whatever happened to the family (supposedly Shadow hurting Don, though there could be more), eventually mellowed out as much as he ever was going to and then would see his brothers from time to time.

-Donatello going blind was more a thematic decision (just as Raphael losing an eye was, even in Archie for a completely different timeline) that came out of the late 90s. For a fourth movie pitch that morphed into the "Next Mutation" series, Donatello would be blind but have techno goggles that let him see anyway. This worked its way into being Donatello's future look. This could explain what's going on at Radical's funeral.

-It's a possible future and it's depressing. I don't buy it.

[DrSpengler]

-I always interpreted Raphael living in the swamp was less about him being senile than going feral. Something like out of the bible with going into the wilderness and living with pain in your heart, acting like an animal. His physical faculties don't seem to have deteriorated along with his mind, though I know the two don't always go hand in hand. So I'd prefer to think that he went feral after whatever happened to the family (supposedly Shadow hurting Don, though there could be more), eventually mellowed out as much as he ever was going to and then would see his brothers from time to time.


That's a good alternative, I'll admit.

If that were the case, then "A Christmas Carol" could also fit nicely immediately after "Dark Shadows". I imagine Raph was monstrously pissed after losing his eye, which could account for his feral behavior. With that in mind, "Choices" could make for a nicer ending for his arc, as he finds peace protecting the animals of the swamp.

That could definately work, too, now that you mention it. Maybe I'll reorder my chronology to reflect that idea, since it also works better with Raph's physical appearance in "Choices" (where he looks geriatric) as oposed to "A Christmas Carol" (where he looks more middle-aged).

Good call.


EDIT: Swapped it around and it DOES work a whole lot better in this order. Updated the Notes and my Conclusion to reflect the new order. Definately like the idea of Raph peacefully spending his twilight years protecting forest animals over his going senile and berserk in a murky hellhole.

[oldmanwinters]

Off hand, one omission in your treatment has come to mind: the cryptic prophecy of Splinter's death and Donatello's trip to Japan to bury him in Volume 2, #1.

Off to read more of the list!

[TMNachoT]

shame that some of that future stories were publised as back up stories, i didn`t know about the "christmas carol" or the Treasury Edition...

good article, i posted some questions there...

[oldmanwinters]

Ah! I just remembered another easily forgotten future snippet!

The framing device scenes of "Triptyche" (Tales Volume 2, #38 ) where we see an old (but not exceedingly old) Leonardo (at least I think it's Leo) remembering Master Splinter and the story of their first encounter with Leatherhead. When the memory ends, Leonardo climbs a ladder onto the deck of what appears to be a futuristic submarine.

[funatic]

Great write-up! At least Leo doesn't "die a virgin" har har!

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

Great write-up! At least Leo doesn't "die a virgin" har har!

Huh? :tconfuse:

[Ninjinister]

Huh? :tconfuse:

Read the article.

[Luzmagica]

Maybe not so sad for warriors ninja turtles in older ages...but very painful and sad for a humble fan .... ( :cry: )....Great work anyway!! Congrats!

[Sage Ninja]

wow, what a depressing read. Good job though you are a very good and analytic writer. I can't say I would have had the motivation to put something together like that if it didn't involve my job. Props for you.

I guess this is brutatly realistic take, most people tend to drift apart from their loved ones instead of staying together and this ending for the turtles refeltcs that. Though considering how strong and beautiful the family element is with the turtles it's doubly tragic to see them all die (or seem to) all alone with out each other.

I wonder why Mike's fate was left so undetailed though. That sort of annoys me.

[Scandia]

Wow, talk about grim. I prefer the happier endings of the other universes. Frankly, I do.

If Raphael dies peacefully in the swamp when he is last seen, then the order of death would be:

1) Michelangelo
2) Raphael
3) Leonardo
4) Donatello

Even before that Tales special edition, many people had speculated that Donatello would be the last one to die. Whether it had to do with actual events in the plot, or more to do with his calmer temperament, I am not sure. Perhaps both.

[CyberCubed]

I really wish Murphy didn't use the same ideas in both comic series. He took Raph's eye patch and the water levels rising sinking coastal cities and put it in the Archie series too, which came after a lot of this initial Mirage stuff.

And also Mike being a writer apparently, which also happens in the Cyber-Turtles story.

[PAAATE]

I really wish Murphy didn't use the same ideas in both comic series. He took Raph's eye patch and the water levels rising sinking coastal cities and put it in the Archie series too, which came after a lot of this initial Mirage stuff.

And also Mike being a writer apparently, which also happens in the Cyber-Turtles story.

I like it! Makes the two universes seem more connected.

[jaymq]

Mike dies first and gets no story. Is there no one that thinks he deserves more than little brother syndrome and/or being totally ignored?

:roll:

[Jephael]

This is why I prefer the Archie Universe Future Turtles. They stick together through the generations.

[funatic]

Mike dies first and gets no story. Is there no one that thinks he deserves more than little brother syndrome and/or being totally ignored?

:roll:

Though it seems more doubtful every passing month that we'll see it - maybe Peter Laird will give Mike some closure when he releases the rest of the plot to his TMNT v4 arc, as Mike is currently out having adventures off of Earth in that series, he could fall into a very interesting future situation.

[jaymq]

Though it seems more doubtful every passing month that we'll see it - maybe Peter Laird will give Mike some closure when he releases the rest of the plot to his TMNT v4 arc, as Mike is currently out having adventures off of Earth in that series, he could fall into a very interesting future situation.

Yea, I wanna see that get some closure. But I'm not holding my breath. Laird's taking a well-deserved break from Turtles.

[Cipher]

So, I haven't read the Plastron Cafe short, but why can't Don be blind there as well?

I don't see what the difference is between him "seeing" his holographic brothers in Plastron Cafe and him "seeing" his holographic brothers in the Tales collection. But I guess it's moot.

Anyway, I love all the future stuff. It's one of my favorite things about the series, the fact that we get these realistically bleak glimpses of what happens. You might want to include mention of other stories that hint at the Turtles' future. The ending of "Rocks" deserves a shout out.

This is why I prefer the Archie Universe Future Turtles. They stick together through the generations.It should be clear by the time you get to "City at War" that the Mirage version of the story doesn't lean toward sappiness. I would like this series significantly less if the (sometimes bittersweet) flow of time were not a major focus.

Though considering how strong and beautiful the family element is with the turtles it's doubly tragic to see them all die (or seem to) all alone with out each other. But this is also the only version where the Turtles and Splinter aren't, strictly speaking, good people. They're often selfish or vengeful or narrow-minded. Cha Ocho hits a real chord when he criticizes Leo's point of view at the end of "Scars" (which is another series highlight). Realistically there's just no way these guys are headed for a happy-go-lucky finale. The Turtles here are complex characters; they get more complex endings than settling down for a pizza together.

[Venom]

Hell I'm surprised the Turtles manage to make it to old age! I always find it refreshing that they pass on from old age rather than cut down in battle. It carries an inherent nobility in that the four of them weathered many trials and tribulation across a large spanse of time and came out the other side with their lives.

The fact that the Turtles grow old and die is proof of how badass they are. "C'mon Life, throw anything you've got at us, odds are you'll only win once."

[NameGoesHere1066]

I'm surpriced Mike was the first to go. I always thought Raph would be. Or would be the last one alive.

[DrSpengler]

Updated the article with a few new additions! (http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2010/07/mysterious-future-era-of-mirage.html)

Added the TMNT (Vol. 2) #1 premonition to the "Apocrypha" section, as it doesn't quite gel with what we know about the future, but referenced ways in which it could.

Added Tales of the TMNT (Vol. 2) #45, "Rocks" to the beginning of the timeline as it foreshadows both the global disaster and the Turtles splitting.

And added the framing device from Tales of the TMNT (Vol. 2) #38, what with it containing old Leo and all. This one was hard to place, as outside of visual reference, there's no real indicator of Leo's age (the bokken at least establishes whether he's older than 100 or not). I decided to place it inbetween the main story seen in "Swan Song" and his appearance in "Loops". Seemed like a safe bet, though it doesn't explain the futuristic house he's living in (when in his other future appearances, he's living in a Japanese temple).

Ah well.

[CyberCubed]

You know I wonder if Vol. 4 was originally completed as intended, if the final story arc was going to set in the future. Not an entire bunch of issues, but just one issue or half an issue about the Turtles lives in the future.

This is the best ending the Mirage universe could ever get. I also love how they don't explain everything and leave most of it up to interpetation.

If Vol. 4 is never completed, at least we have the "Future era" of the Mirage TMNT to know how it all ends:

- Raph and Don return to normal
- Utroms evacuate humans from Earth and the Xihad stop their terrorist acts
- Karai, Cha Ocho and Foot Clan remain active far in the future
- April returns to Casey/Shadow at some point


The only things we don't know:

- Whatever happenes with Leo meeting Oroku Yoshi and stopping the Warriors from killing the Foot. At least we know they are stopped as the Foot Clan never dies.

- What happened with the Mike/Triceraton Vs. Straycodon War, as well as closure for Regenta.

[Cipher]

- Whatever happenes with Leo meeting Oroku Yoshi and stopping the Warriors from killing the Foot. At least we know they are stopped as the Foot Clan never dies.Doesn't it? Karai leads a disbanded bunch of robots out of a run-down warehouse in 2060.

Elsewhere, Cha Ocho apparently commands a faction, but we don't know how powerful they are. And the fact that Cha Ocho, a random American Foot member, has taken a seat of power at all speaks to some major weakening in the organization.

And what else do we know? That Shadow is endangered by a rogue Foot attack? And then you have, as always, the splinter groups of Shredder loyalists and Foot Mystics.

Seems like things go pretty south. It becomes very disorganized, at the least. The Foot Clan as we knew it in Volume 1 is very dead.

[CyberCubed]

In Vol. 4, I think in one issue Karai says how there's less than 100 Foot Clan members still active due to the attacks, but I can't recall exactly if that's what she said.

But yeah, they obviously are a shadow of their former selves.

[Cipher]

In Vol. 4, I think in one issue Karai says how there's less than 100 Foot Clan members still active due to the attacks, but I can't recall exactly if that's what she said.If I remember correctly, she says only the New York branch remains at that point. And Leo later comments that they seem to be filling their ranks with amateurs.

They're really hurting in Volume 4, and all evidence points to even further splintering down the road.

[Venom]

The Foot does seem to become more and more splintered as time progresses: Karai still leads a handful in 2001 as well as 2060, Cha Ocho becomes more mystical and heads up a group in the not-so-distant future, the Oroku family still holds some power we found out, as well as the occasional rogue cell that pops up.

The present day Foot seems to have lost its way completely, and Karai is the only one trying to keep it together and unify the group to align more with the honorable traditions.

Well, as honorable as ninja can be.

[discordiatookie]

Yet another great article by your self, DrSpengler. Thoroughly enjoyable, if a wee bit (well alotta bit) sad.

[John Pannozzi]

Everyone thinks that the Turtles’ battlecry is “Cowabunga!”, but so far as the Mirage universe goes, I think the quote from Donatello (microseries) #1, “Life at best is bittersweet,” fits a heck of a lot better. Poor guys. Now I’m gonna cry whenever I eat pizza.

LOL.

Seriously, though, if you want to look on the positive side, there's definitely a spiritual plane in the Mirage TMNT universe, so, maybe in the afterlife, the Turtles, Splinter, April, Casey and Shadow (and maybe also Yoshi for that matter) make peace with each other?

Just my Christian side talking. ;)

[DrSpengler]

You raise a good point, John, that the Turtles do live in a unvierse where afterlives and spirituality is a cold, hard fact, at least in regards to the Turtles' experiences with them.

They've met ghosts on numerous ocassions (Oroku Nagi, the Rat King, the ghosts of Christmas) and various religious figures seem to be realities, such as the American Indian spirits Radical draws her power from.

Though I have to wonder, do the Turtles live in one of those comic book universe ala Marvel or DC where "every religion is correct" in therefor every spiritual pantheon coexists regardless of whether their biblical canon might contradict oneanother?

And what, if anything, do the Turtles believe in, exactly? I know very little about Buddhist beliefs; is there anything evident in Splinter's training that would indicate they were raised Buddhist? Leo seems to at least believe firmly in zen concepts of inner peace, but what kind of an afterlife is that going to get him?

Meanwhile, Don is such a logical, rational scientific character, I never pegged him for being a Turtle of faith. Likewise, Raph seems far too cynical to have any firm religious beliefs. I'd think they'd be Atheists if anything.

Then there's Mikey, and I don't even know *what* his beliefs, if any, might be.


Religion is certainly one of the untouched aspects of the Turtles lives we never really got to see in any depth. It seems outside of zen teachings, which don't technically have to be based in religion, it was never a major part of their lives.

So then *that* begs the question that even though a Christian afterlife seems to exist in the Turtles' universe (along with other religious afterlives), then *would* the Turtles go to that afterlife if they didn't believe in it? And if the different Turtles believed in different things, then wouldn't they each end up in a different plane after passing away.

If Don was an Athiest, then he'd cease to exist. If Mikey was a Christian, he'd go to Heaven (or Hell, depending on how God felt about all the people he killed). If Leo believed in Nirvana, then he'd wind up in that nebulous entity of inner peace. And April, well, she's a doodle so she'd probably end up in the Kirby world with all the other erased doodles.

So that leaves me thinking that even in *death*, the Turtles still wouldn't be reunited.

Which in retrospect, makes everything even MORE depressing.

[Scandia]

Oh I think everybody goes to the same happy place in the afterlife, regarding of specific beliefs.

And I also think that Donnie is at worst, agnostic, but not a true atheist. He may even be a Deist. Or a Humanist who believes there is some sort of higher power/supreme being. I do not see Raphael as an atheist either- he does believe in a higher power of some sort, even though he may be cynical as to how much the higher power cares.

So I do think they are reunited in the afterlife, regardless of what specific spiritual beliefs they may have had before that.

Count me in as one of those people who does believe every religion is valid and that everyone goes to the same place and has the same head honcho.

[oldmanwinters]

Donatello did show his "spiritual" side in "Twilight of the Ring" (Vol. 1 #37), but I guess that issue's canon status is up for debate.

[Cipher]

We can't forget about Donatello's little moment with "The Guiding Light" pamphlet in Volume 2. He definitely wasn't a hard-and-fast atheist. And like Spengs said, there are plenty of confirmed paranormal experiences in the TMNT universe, from ghosts to spiritual planes. You can't just ignore those.

[Powder]

I think we've found another essay for you to write, spengs.

[Kendamu]

I'm sure you guys can poke this idea full of holes, but that's the exact reason I'm bringing it up here instead of pondering on it alone: Could it be that Mikey either never returned from space or maybe that he only returned briefly? Maybe that's why he's not around.

If not, I figure he was likely killed to better serve how depressing the future is since he's the one who could've found a bright side to it all.

[discordiatookie]

I'm sure you guys can poke this idea full of holes, but that's the exact reason I'm bringing it up here instead of pondering on it alone: Could it be that Mikey either never returned from space or maybe that he only returned briefly? Maybe that's why he's not around.


Y'know, you read my mind on that one. I was thinking this just the other day. How gutting would it be if the rest of the turtles, etc, never found out what happened to him. I really can't remember if there's been a post vol 4 issue of Tales with Mikey in it. Oh in fact, yeah I can - there's that picture, right there in Spengs' essay, with Mikey at Radical's funeral. D'oh! Still, I reckon he became the king of the Styrecodons (I really can't remember if that's how its spelled, and I can't be arsed moving the five feet across the room to my comic box to check). :P

[CyberCubed]

Don't worry, when the Turtles are all dead I'm sure they'll all meet as spirits just like Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin did at the end of the Star Wars Trilogy.

They'll also see Splinter as the King of Rats.

[DrSpengler]

Well, I decided to go straight to the horse's mouth and sent Dan Berger an e-mail, asking if he had any thoughts on my chronology, if I at least didn't botch the whole thing.

Dan being Dan, he exceeded my expectations with his response and gave me a lot of detailed insights!

I don't normally bug you guys with the stuff I write, but I kind of felt compelled to ask if I "got it right" or not?

Since we went with the multiple universes theory - everything is basically right because every outcome is possible in some divergent thread universe. :)

I was hoping you could tell me if I got the order of events correct?

I'll give it a shot - but I do need to point out that for the past eight months my brain has been focused on what I'm going to do next rather than the Mirage TMNTverse - so I've forgotten a lot of the minutia (and my memory is lousy to begin with).

And I should note that Peter Laird had ultimate say in everything TMNT while I was the managing editor, and while he did approve the stories for Tales, in the end, he could have (and still may) rewrite the Mirage universe future... so with that in mind...

1) I don’t think it would be too offensive of me to assume that a concrete concept of what that future was like was never actually specified but “made up as they went”.

That's definitely true - there was never a grand a plan, at least not one that Kevin or Peter ever outlined for the rest of the creators (they may have had one in their heads, though).

That aspect of the TMNT was wonderful for the creators because the freedom that Kevin and Peter gave them was a rare thing in the comics industry - but that creative freedom did lead to plot holes (like my own timeline goof with TMNT #45).

2) Tales of the TMNT (Vol. 2) #45 (April, 2008), “Rocks” - During the six months in 2001 when the Utroms were establishing themselves on Earth

Trying to set specific dates is tricky. When Peter began Vol. 4, I'm pretty sure he viewed it as taking place in the "near future" rather than on our calendar year of 2001 (hence the existence of a moon base in #1) - but how far into the future was never cemented. He said a few times that the Turtles were in the mid-30s for Vol. 4, so I think that leaves a few years of play for the timeline.

3) The god tells Mike that for every lie man tells, the rocks of their planet crack. Very soon, their world will crumble from the weight of their lies and he must escape its destruction.

Wow - I'm glad you connected those dots! :)

Actually - I'm glad you've connected so many dots because many of them were intentional and it's very gratifying when someone finds the "Easter eggs." :)

4) Tales of the TMNT (Vol. 2) #69 (April, 2010), “Dark Shadows” (back story) - The Utroms came to Earth in 2001, according to TMNT (Vol. 4), with this back story taking place only “several years” after that. We see Shadow watching the Utroms leave the planet with the evacuees and she is still a teenager close to how she appeared in TMNT (Vol. 4), indicating that by “several years”, they meant “not many”.

True - although it is tough placing the 2001 date as the absolute starting point as noted above.

5) Plastron Café #1 (December, 1992), “Old Times” - Notes: The glimpse of Japan we receive paints it as a beautiful, unspoiled landscape, contradicting the flooded end of the world scenario in the “Dark Shadows” back story.

I took it to take place on a mountain top - as was Raph in #69 - my assumption was that the mountains of Japan are high enough to avoid flooding.

6) Plastron Café #1 (December, 1992), “Old Times” - Also, Don still has his eyesight (that's about to become important in a second).

I didn't have any definite plan regarding what Shad did to Don. I decided to leave it ambiguous on purpose for the reason that some people like horror novels better than horror films (the viewer's mind can create horrors far more real and personal for him/herself - so what I might have come up with may not have been as tragic as something the reader could come up with on their own). So what Shadow actually did to Don was something that could have been explored later. As you point out, we did see Don in the future with full vision (in the Plastron Cafe story) - but Don could have had a "bionic" eye implanted by that time (for those who favor the blinding theme) - although why he'd be blind in the Tales collected would remain a mystery (particularly if he had the option for bionic eyes at some point in the past). Since I had no specific plan for what Shadow did to Donny when I wrote Tales #69 - anything is possible.

That said, the blinding thing is tricky for me because I do like the idea of it for symbolic reasons - but at the same time, if everyone was going around blinding everyone else, the act becomes stale as a story element and therefore creates a dangerous game of inviting tedium into the mythos, which is another reason why I thought it best to leave it up in the air. It would also buy me some extra time to mull things over and see what other writers would be doing in the meantime (as it turns out - there wouldn't be any meantime, but I didn't know that when I wrote #69).

7) Tales of the TMNT (Vol. 2) #69 (April, 2010), “Dark Shadows” (main story) - We learn that Casey has passed away

Not necessarily... perhaps just "absent from her life now."

I know - too vague. ;)

But again - some things I like leaving up to the reader because, frankly, I'm a romantic softy. I spend a lot of time thinking about what the reader will get outta my stories (or what I hope they'll get at the least). So if readers want to think Casey and April are still alive and well during the events of #69 because it makes them feel better, they can - but if they want to think they're both dead to add even more personal gravitas to the armageddon scenario, they can. It's up to the reader to decide how full/empty the glass is - that's a very important element for me in what I do - and it lends itself for future reading since our views and perspectives can change over time - thus potentially giving the work all new meaning at different stages in people's lives (should they ever choose to revisit the material).

8) Michaelangelo (microseries) #1 (2nd printing) (December, 1990), “A Christmas Carol” - Notes: The future-Raph seen here seems to have "gone feral", snarling and barking like a wild animal and getting distracted just as easily. Seeing as how he doesn't look as elderly as in his later appearance, "Choices", I like to think of this as happening right after his eye-gouging in "Dark Shadows". Hey, you'd be pissed, too.

I have no problem with that explanation. :)

However - it could also be Raph another decade or two into the future, where things have gotten even worse for him (should you choose to have a half empty glass ;)

9) Tales of the TMNT (Vol. 2) #41 (December, 2007), “Swan Song” (main story) - Don is wearing goggles, which would be a weird thing for a blind guy to wear, but it’s only one panel and his eyes are closed, so there’s no saying that he isn’t blind (the goggles could also be a device he built to compensate for his blindness).

Good point. :)




Continued Next Post

[DrSpengler]

Continued from above post


10) I suppose one could just argue that only parts of the planet were ruined by global warming

That's my take. The floods arrive due to massive tectonic shifts that cause the Earth's axis to rotate. So IMO it's feasible that some areas that were underwater before the flood will rise up out of the sea and create new land masses while existing lands flood or are violently changed via earthquakes and volcanic activity.

11) Tales of the TMNT (Vol. 2) #55 (February, 2009), “A Day in the Life” (epilogue) - The April robot is a bit strange

It was originally going to be an alien girlfriend - but Peter suggested changing it to the April robot - which I loved, particularly since it tied directly into the little robot Donny was working on in the beginning of the story, thus allowing me to come full circle on the malfunctioning robot bit. And it adds an ominous tone to what happened to April in the future (not to mention Raph's psyche - why would he even want an April bot???).

12) April was dead (or faded into the Kirby world, since she is actually a magic doodle).

Peter hasn't ever talked about it with me - but I've often wondered about that very outcome.

I proposed a story featuring that world, but Peter didn't want anyone else mucking with the Kirby story line since it was so close to his heart.

13) Kind of a morbid gift, Don.

And how! That's what makes the concept so great! The psychology behind it is fascinating. :)

14) Raph’s words about Mikey indicate he’s either lost or dead, a mystery that is never resolved, as future-Mikey is never physically seen again after this point.

That I left completely up in the air because at the time I wrote #55, I had no idea what Peter's plans for Mikey were - he was still in space with the Triceratons at the time (which is why I put in the starry sky ending - in case Peter decided to leave him out there).

15) Tales of the TMNT (Vol. 2) #40 (November, 2007), “Silent Knight” - It is the year 2060. After finding a baby in the sewers of Tokyo...

Yeah, Tokyo not being flooded is problematic for #69 - this is where you can utilize the multiple universe theory to explain away the discrepancies, as unsatisfying as that may be. Or, to go the Marvel Comics No-Prize route, it's also possible that Tokyo was rebuilt by this time (although that would beg for the city to be called "New Tokyo" like they do in all the post apocalyptic movies - although that in and of itself is reason why not to do that :) .

16) Cha Ocho was previously seen in charge of the remains of the Foot Clan, though its possible the Clan had split up at some point.

That's my theory - I love the idea of splinter cells within the Foot as it creates intrigue and seems logical since the organization is full of sneaky ninja bastards.

17) Tales of the TMNT (Vol. 2) #38 (September, 2007), “Triptyche” (framing device) - At best guess, I’d say this story takes place between the main story seen in “Swan Song”, after Leonardo vanquishes Complete Carnage and swears off killing, and his appearance in “Loops, Part I” where he lives in the Mt. Fuji temple. I suppose he just decided to live in a futuristic apartment between those stories.

Anything is possible with this one - I didn't write it, so I don't know - I took it as Leo living on one of those ocean-housing structures (since the Earth appears to be flooded).

18) Tales of the TMNT (Vol. 2) #41 (December, 2007), “Swan Song” (framing device) - Notes: The implication at the end is that Leo is laying down to pass away peacefully in his sleep

I didn't write it, so I can't say for sure what the intentions were - but during my tenor as managing editor, Peter didn't want anyone but himself writing death stories - I don't know if this order existed when Murphy was the managing editor, and the "next life" line does imply he's on his way out - but my orders were "no death stories" for the Turtles... FWIW.

19) Tales of the TMNT Original Vol. 1 Treasury Edition (2007), frontispieces and epilogue - Notes: The implication I got from the end of this story is that Don won’t be waking up again, much like the end for Leo in “Swan Song”.

Again - I dunno since it was written before I got my standing orders from Peter.

20) Apocrypha: There are other stories that take place in the future of the Mirage Turtles, but they either don’t directly relate to the timeline of the Turtles themselves or are so contradictory that they must take place in an alternate future.

As unsatisfying as that may be for the reader, alternate timelines are pretty much unavoidable at times regarding the mostly "editorless" TMNT comics.

21) The story “Road Hogs”, published in the Palladium Books “After the Bomb” supplement, features Raph in a post-Apocalyptic future mentoring a new generation of mutant turtles

I reckon this is the sort of thing that was done for a licensee to tie into their product more than to tie into the Mirage continuity.

22) Conclusion: Well, it’s all very depressing, isn’t it?

So the glass is half empty after all? ;)

Hope that's of some help. :)

Cheers!
Dan

[discordiatookie]

What a response, Spengs! Dan Berger is amazing. Whadda guy!

16) Cha Ocho was previously seen in charge of the remains of the Foot Clan, though its possible the Clan had split up at some point.

That's my theory - I love the idea of splinter cells within the Foot as it creates intrigue and seems logical since the organization is full of sneaky ninja bastards.

And this response, in itself, and I don't normally use such phrases, is full of win. Pure f*ckin win.

[Powder]

Dan Berger- The coolest man in comics.

Nice to get some insight.

[DrSpengler]

I had no idea Laird had instituted a "no deaths" rule for the future era stories. Kind of odd that he apparently instituted it AFTER two stories that vaguely alluded to the Turtles dying had been written.

Also interesting about the April robot being a standin for an "alien girlfriend" Raph was going to have. Though I was more excited that Berger wrote the last panel with the allusion that Mikey never made it back from his Volume 4 space adventure (even though his appearance in "Swan Song" says otherwise).

[discordiatookie]

Mayhap it was a Robo-Mikey built by Don as the brothers missed him so much, in Swan Song. :twink:

As for the alien girlfriend, imagine how many fan squeals there woulda been if she had looked like a wolf, or fox or something. :P

[CyberCubed]

You know, maybe Mike does make up with The Regenta somehow and goes off to live with her on another planet after the whole war boils down.

That would give Mike a happy ending.

[willtupper]

I will not make the joke about this quote.
I will not make the joke about this quote.
I will not make the joke about this quote.
I will not make the joke about this quote.

That would give Mike a happy ending.

:lol:

[PAAATE]

I will not make the joke about this quote.
I will not make the joke about this quote.
I will not make the joke about this quote.
I will not make the joke about this quote.



:lol:

Oh no, you didn't :lol:

[Peter Palmer]

Late to the party, but this was a great read. It was nice to see everything collected and analyzed. Well done!

People were talking about Turtles and the afterlife. Something I always imagined was that once the turtles died, they'd appear in the Hall of Lost Legends from Vol. 1 Issue #43. In the issue, they're told that "they're early" when they arrive as they stumbled upon the place by accident. They find that the place is home to the legends from various mythologies and were told that the Turtles themselves would call the place home someday, a fact that Splinter agrees with.

I always felt that regardless of religion or anything that might split up the brothers in the future, they'd be reunited in the Hall of Lost Legends upon their death.

[Andrew NDB]

Always a good resource.

[Xav]

Raph having both eyes doesn't rule out Road Hogs, it could very well be a glass eye or a cyber eye he got from Don. We never see what his eye looks like without the hood. Plus the world getting nuked would explain the radloactive zombies in Silent Knight.