If Peter hated Venus so much [Archive]

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Xav

02-03-2011, 01:54 AM

Why did he allow her to be created? Didn't he and Kevin have the final say on everything?

shuriken

02-03-2011, 02:37 AM

I think he initially liked the idea to sort of shake things up a bit in the TMNT Universe. I think it was more after the fact kinda deal. After that he didn't want another turtle in the core group, ever.

Avatar Yuffie

02-03-2011, 04:20 AM

Maybe Peter didn't like the way Venus is being set up as a love interest. It does feel kind of clumsy with Leo telling her all of them are not related anyway, so not to squick the kids with the incestuous implications.

Granted in the OT, the Turtles never considered Splinter their father (more like a Mr. Miyagi type sensei), and their enemies keep calling them friends and buddies instead of brothers (though Splinter insists to the audience they're brothers).

DrSpengler

02-03-2011, 05:37 AM

It was my understanding that Saban said they wouldn't do the show unless there was a girl Turtle and Eastman (not Laird) created her as a concession?

And wasn't she evolved from an earlier Eastman/Laird concept for a fifth Turtle? "Kirby" or something? (I don't own Eastman's Artobiography, I'm afraid)

Anyway, I figure Laird sees her as one of his greater moments of "selling out" his artistic integrity. He let Saban bully him into creating a terrible character in exchange for wads and wads of cash. He's rightfully humiliated, if you ask me.

***First of Two Latin Kings***

02-03-2011, 07:40 AM

Anyway, I figure Laird sees her as one of his greater moments of "selling out" his artistic integrity. He let Saban bully him into creating a terrible character in exchange for wads and wads of cash. He's rightfully humiliated, if you ask me.

It was MY understanding that by the time Next Mutation was in the works, Kevin and Peter's friendship was already on shaky ground, but Eastman hadn't been bought out yet and it seems like they couldn't check one another's decisions. Peter is very much a control freak and it seems like he "allowed" a lot of things to happen simply because of the $ involved, and later regretted those decisions on grounds of a lack of artistic merit. Being that they were co-owners, I don't think they had the power to "squash" one another's ideas. Eastman was a lot more involved in project Next Mutation than Laird was and was probably just happy to see their concepts manifesting as a project, even though they were poorly represented, since the turtles didn't have a lot going on for them at the time (yes, there was the Image series, but when you compare the three time frames, 1987-1996, 1997-2002, and 2003-2008, the years in the middle got the short end of the stick turtlewise).

Fugitoid Jones

02-03-2011, 12:01 PM

I was never sure, but I always assumed that Venus wasn't something Kev and Pete wanted but had to have in order for Fox to let the show fly.

I'm sure one of the wise can answer my question, why did Kev and Pete dislike Bebop and Rocksteady so much? Why did they put the kabosh on them appearing on the 2nd movie?

Candy Kappa

02-03-2011, 12:06 PM

Why did they put the kabosh on them appearing on the 2nd movie?

I think that was due to the issues they had with MWS, and also why the Archie series only shares first season with the show

***First of Two Latin Kings***

02-03-2011, 12:08 PM

I think that was due to the issues they had with MWS, and also why the Archie series only shares first season with the show

I think it had more to do with the fact that MWS adapted Laird's designs for them to the point that it was a hit to Laird's ego.

Andrew NDB

02-03-2011, 03:08 PM

Laird had next to nothing to do with NT:TNM. As best as I can tell, as soon as the female Turtle thing became a given he walked away from it and basically told Kevin, "Ho-kay, do whatever you want with this crap, this is your baby."

Avatar Yuffie

02-06-2011, 04:34 AM

I'm sure one of the wise can answer my question, why did Kev and Pete dislike Bebop and Rocksteady so much? Why did they put the kabosh on them appearing on the 2nd movie?

Because they never created Bebop and Rocksteady?

Tokka and Rahzar are pretty cool concepts, I was kinda surprised they were never used in the 4Kids version... how they were defeated in the second live action film were anticlimatic, really.

DrSpengler

02-06-2011, 07:26 AM

Because they never created Bebop and Rocksteady?

No, they created Bebop and Rocksteady (with the help of Ryan Brown, most likley).

Laird's stated time and again that he helped create the two characters and he doesn't hate them, but he doesn't feel they belong in any univere other than the Fred Wolf cartoon (this was his response whenever anyone asked why they weren't in the 4Kids cartoon).

cryan

02-06-2011, 07:41 AM

If Laird hated venus in regards to the Next Mutation series then 7 years earlier in 1990 I am suprised he and Eastman ok Mona Lisa for the cartoon.I was watching one the featurattes on the DVD box sets I have and they said that Fred wolf films had to get thier approval for whoever is going to be in the series.It still amazes me that the writers got her into the series.

Powder

02-06-2011, 07:51 AM

Candy Kappa

02-06-2011, 10:00 AM

Mr._Mutant_Man

02-06-2011, 10:28 AM

It was my understanding that Saban said they wouldn't do the show unless there was a girl Turtle and Eastman (not Laird) created her as a concession?

I don't get why Saban couldn't have just been happy with having April O'Neil as part of the group. Just have her learn martial arts to defend herself, like in the Archie comics. I think a normal human woman probably would have appealed to girls more than a mutant turtle girl would anyway.

Powder

02-06-2011, 10:31 AM

I think a normal human woman probably would have appealed to girls more than a mutant turtle girl would anyway.

Why? Most male fans hated the human additions (Carter, Zach etc) because they watched for the Mutants.
You think the chicks watched for the humans? Nah.

Galactus

02-06-2011, 02:23 PM

I don't get why Saban couldn't have just been happy with having April O'Neil as part of the group.

April wasn't much of an option. Kevin at the time wanted to retire the April O'Neil character which makes so called plans to include her in a second season rather dubious.

If Laird hated venus in regards to the Next Mutation series then 7 years earlier in 1990 I am suprised he and Eastman ok Mona Lisa for the cartoon.

Mona Lisa was originaly supposed to be a female turtle. Mirage objected and she was changed to a lizard.

Of course it's never stated that's what she is and apart from the tail she looks like a female version of the TMNTs right down to the belt buckle. Kind of weak effort to please Mirage. Kinda like how Man Ray was changed to Ray...it's the same damn thing.

one the featurattes on the DVD box sets I have and they said that Fred wolf films had to get thier approval for whoever is going to be in the series.

By now I think that's been pretty much been blown out of the water.

The whole approvals end seems to me to be something of a fallacy anyway. I remember Peter explained how his relationship with Playmates was back when there was a uproar over the toys.

Obviously companies that hold the licenses don't want to anger the owner of the property and at times we've seen that they can value Mirage's input (to varying degrees) and word with them but if they come to a disagreement it seems that either...

a) The company either agree or decide it's not worth pissing Mirage off over this.

b) The two try and come up with a compromise or...

c) They go ahead and do it anyway.

cryan

02-06-2011, 06:14 PM

Very interesting.

Avatar Yuffie

02-06-2011, 06:37 PM

No, they created Bebop and Rocksteady (with the help of Ryan Brown, most likley).

I thought they were created by David Wise, under instructions from Fred Wolf to make more mutants?

I don't get why Saban couldn't have just been happy with having April O'Neil as part of the group. Just have her learn martial arts to defend herself, like in the Archie comics. I think a normal human woman probably would have appealed to girls more than a mutant turtle girl would anyway.

Actually there is a reason why anthropomorphic females like Mona Lisa and Ninjara are popular in the (female) fanbase. April fits more as the older sister type than a teenage peer who'd get involved with the Turtles' wacky adventures.

I think if Saban used an alien Triceraton Venus, or a teenager Jhanna in a role like Starfire from Teen Titans (doesn't get American culture, has powers), she wouldn't get the hate so much.

Koi

02-06-2011, 07:10 PM

I think a normal human woman probably would have appealed to girls more than a mutant turtle girl would anyway.

Mutants are not as relate able as a human character is. Which is why I have to agree with that.

Xav

02-06-2011, 10:30 PM

Tokka and Rahzar are pretty cool concepts, I was kinda surprised they were never used in the 4Kids version... how they were defeated in the second live action film were anticlimatic, really. Why they did appear in Turtles Forever.

I thought they were created by David Wise, under instructions from Fred Wolf to make more mutants? Yeah that what Wikipedia says though the source is a broken link to a Facebook page.

Bjarni

02-16-2011, 01:37 PM

It's on David Wise's facebook, According to Wise himself, he created Bebop and Rocksteady.
This is probably true because he has no reason to make that up.

I can see why Kevin and Peter would agree to do Bebop and Rocksteady, this was early in their agreements with Playmates, they wanted the franchise to do well but I guess they never saw that the characters would become as big as they got.

I can see that as soon as the Archie comics started doing stuff more independently, Peter or Kevin might have asked Murphy to get rid of Krang, Bebop and Rocksteady just so the comics could stand on it's own. The only reason why I believe they would have asked Murph instead of him doing so himself is because they refused to have them in the second film.

And why were they not allowed in the second film? Some people pointed out copyright reasons, but it looks to me that Pete and Kev always owned the rights to Bebop and Rocksteady. Not only that, but Playmates wanted to make a movie before they decided on the cartoon, so incorporating characters would seem like something they would have no problem in doing. But seeing how the first film was based entirely on Volume 1, I guess Peter and Kevin wanted to keep everything in 'Volume 1'.
Tokka and Razhar both appear in Turtle Soup, in two separate stories that don't have anything to do with the film, I'm guessing this was their way to keep the sequel still in "Volume 1 Universe"?

Everyone also seems to be on the right track with Venus, from what I've read, Kevin was the one that was doing the deal with Saban. I also don't think he hated the idea of Venus, Peter probably reluctantly agreed and the moment Kevin sold his right of the comics, Peter pulled the plug.

Xav

02-16-2011, 01:47 PM

Wait what Turtle Soup stories did Tokka and Rahzar appear in?

Bjarni

02-16-2011, 02:17 PM

They both appear in Turtle Soup #1 (1991) (http://mutantooze.org/tmntdb/comics/miragespecials/turtlesoup/01.html)

In "The Purpose of Fear" by J. B. Bonivert, April gets a snapping turtle pet that bites Raph. In his dreams, it has mutated and it looks exactly like Tokka.

In "Turtle Power! " by Rich Hedden and Tom McWeeney, Krang puts mutagen on a wolf and creates Razhar to fight the Turtles.

Short cameos, adding them to Mirage canon is the only explanation I can think of for them being there really...

Xav

02-16-2011, 03:08 PM

Krang was in the Mirage Comics?

Bjarni

02-16-2011, 03:09 PM

The last page shows of the story shows that it's just a kid playing with his Turtle figures.
So it's def not the same universe as the main stories of 'Volume 1'.

But yeah, Krang made an appearance in the Mirage publication.

Xav

02-16-2011, 03:29 PM

But seeing how the first film was based entirely on Volume 1, I guess Peter and Kevin wanted to keep everything in 'Volume 1'.
Tokka and Razhar both appear in Turtle Soup, in two separate stories that don't have anything to do with the film, I'm guessing this was their way to keep the sequel still in "Volume 1 Universe"?

The last page shows of the story shows that it's just a kid playing with his Turtle figures.
So it's def not the same universe as the main stories of 'Volume 1'.
So to keep the sequel still in the "Volume 1 Universe" they published a story that was not in that universe?

Bjarni

02-16-2011, 03:40 PM

I said 'Volume 1' because the first film was inspired by the first issues of the comic book, I guess I should have just said 'Mirage'.

I know I might be confusing (and wrong on the matter), but I really see no reason to have "Tokka" and "Razhar" appear in dream sequences in Turtle Soup except to have them appear in a Mirage book and/or comic book counterparts outside of the movie adaptation...

Avatar Yuffie

02-17-2011, 02:43 AM

Why they did appear in Turtles Forever.

That's more like a cameo than them being regulars.

Galactus

02-17-2011, 10:22 AM

It's on David Wise's facebook, According to Wise himself, he created Bebop and Rocksteady. This is probably true because he has no reason to make that up.

True but he can remember things incorrectly. If anyone remembers the video where he answers fan questions he made a few errors about the old show but he clearly wasn't lying but rather remembering a few details things incorrectly. We've seen this kind of thing with the Mirage crew too.

By his own assertion he "created" them based on designs given to him by Playmates. Where these designs done by Peter and Kevin which we know existed or playmates own drawings based on the Peter and Kevin designs?

I have no problem with him thinking himself as the creator as beyond their "look" he named them, he actualy wrote them and came up with their defining characteristics of being lovable goofs but in the strictest sense he didn't create them anymore than Frank Miller created Daredevil

I can see that as soon as the Archie comics started doing stuff more independently, Peter or Kevin might have asked Murphy to get rid of Krang, Bebop and Rocksteady just so the comics could stand on it's own. The only reason why I believe they would have asked Murph instead of him doing so himself is because they refused to have them in the second film.

From what Murphy has said it seems Peter and Kevin left him to his own devices with TMNT Adventures. Why is it so hard to believe he dispensed with them of his volition? He dispensed with the cartoon storyline and tropes and went his own way as soon as he started writing the book. He even brought them back for a few issues.

And why were they not allowed in the second film? Some people pointed out copyright reasons, but it looks to me that Pete and Kev always owned the rights to Bebop and Rocksteady. Not only that, but Playmates wanted to make a movie before they decided on the cartoon, so incorporating characters would seem like something they would have no problem in doing. But seeing how the first film was based entirely on Volume 1, I guess Peter and Kevin wanted to keep everything in 'Volume 1'.
Tokka and Razhar both appear in Turtle Soup, in two separate stories that don't have anything to do with the film, I'm guessing this was their way to keep the sequel still in "Volume 1 Universe"?

Didn't the Turtle Soup stories occur after Secret of the Ooze? Not to mention both stories are dreams anyway. It's clear from comments made by Mirage people and Peter own blog that they didn't like the way the movie was heading with the lighter tone, lack of Casey and recasting April etc. They didn't care for how Bebop & Rocky were used in the show and did their best to keep them out of the movies presumebly to keep what they thought was certain level of...integrity.

Peter probably reluctantly agreed and the moment Kevin sold his right of the comics, Peter pulled the plug.

The plug on the next mutation was pulled long before Kevin sold to Peter.

Bjarni

02-17-2011, 02:28 PM

True but he can remember things incorrectly.
Very possible. I wouldn't mind knowing how they were created. I always assumed that Kevin and Peter created them for Playmates.

Why is it so hard to believe he dispensed with them of his volition?
He totally could have done that. I even remember that Murphy was planning on bringing back Bebop and Rocksteady. A shot in the dark would be that Kevin and Peter didn't like them seeing that they didn't want them in the film either...

Didn't the Turtle Soup stories occur after Secret of the Ooze?
Yeah, it came out in November. It would be weird to ruin the surprise of two new mutant characters by having them show up before the film's release.
Why they are in the book is anyone's guess. Two random sidecharacters making two random cameos in a random Turtle book. Still loved seeing them there.

recasting April etc
Didn't they have to? Didn't Judith Hoag refuse to do the second one because so many of her scenes were cut from the first one? That's what I heard at least.

The plug on the next mutation was pulled long before Kevin sold to Peter.
I know, I'm talking about the plug for Venus. If I remember correctly (this is back in '97, so I might remember it wrong), Venus still had her bio up on NinjaTurtles.com after the show ended, it wasn't until Kevin sold his rights of the comic to Peter that she was removed from the site and she was never spoken about again.

Lynn

02-17-2011, 02:35 PM

ssjup81

02-27-2011, 02:01 AM

To be honest, I still don't get why there was so much dislike for Venus. I liked her character. The only thing I did have a prob with was the fact that they were trying to make her a love interest, but realistically, it's not too surprising since it's not like there were any other female mutant turtles around for the foursome to hang with.

PizzaPower

02-27-2011, 12:35 PM

azrael

02-27-2011, 01:17 PM

I didnt mind venus I think there should have introduced more females to the turtles, cuz as of right now Mike is the only one who has been laid.

Venom

02-27-2011, 03:50 PM

Leo was implied to have made it with Radical.

Jephael

02-27-2011, 05:48 PM

Didn't Archie Raph sleep with Ninjara's descendant in the future? Though personally I'd rather see him fool around with Mona Lisa.

oldmanwinters

02-27-2011, 06:28 PM

Didn't Archie Raph sleep with Ninjara's descendant in the future?

Well, they at least slept in the same bed. (The Cyber Turtles mini-series, I think) :teek:

I prefer to think that was the extent of their intimacy.:roll:

ssjup81

02-28-2011, 05:39 AM

ill go ahead and tell you. I have every episode of the next mutation and i like venus. I would have loved to see a season 2, but thats neither here nor there. Anyway yup, shoot me, cause i like next mutation.Yeah, I really liked The Next Mutation too. I was in high school when it came out, so I got home too late to watch it. I used to set the VCR to tape it (and PR Turbo ^^). It was a nice show, imo. I still feel it's unfair that it gets so much flack and that Venus gets so much hate.

I wish the franchise could've brought in some more female characters in general.

Luzmagica

02-28-2011, 05:43 AM

Nobody is going to be shooted for like Next Mutation! Maybe NM is not the best incarnation, also the third movie ...It is TMNT too!!!
And I like it enough to be part of my collection.

ssjup81

02-28-2011, 05:46 AM

Nobody is going to be shooted for like Next Mutation! Maybe NM is not the best incarnation, also the third movie ...It is TMNT too!!!
And I like it enough to be part of my collection.Oh...yeah, the third movie that I pretend doesn't exist.:P I wonder if I could watch that movie now, though. I haven't seen it since I was like...maybe... 12 or 13 or something like that.

Luzmagica

02-28-2011, 05:50 AM

Oh...yeah, the third movie that I pretend doesn't exist.:P I wonder if I could watch that movie now, though. I haven't seen it since I was like...maybe... 12 or 13 or something like that.

That movie has nice moments too !!! When you get use to see the look of the turtles...:twink:

ssjup81

02-28-2011, 06:30 AM

That movie has nice moments too !!! When you get use to see the look of the turtles...:twink:As a kid, I just felt extremely let down. I was expecting Super Shredder to come back and fight against the turtles and stuff. I mean, he survived the first one and he wasn't mutated. I figured that the dock falling on him at the end of movie 2 wouldn't do him in. So yeah, I was just so disappointed with movie 3's premise so I'm a bit prejudiced against it. My fav part of it, though, was the Tarzan Boy stuff. lol I bet I could watch it if someone was like, "Yo, Wendy, wanna watch Turtle's III while buzzed?" I'd be like, "Ah, what the hey!" lol

PizzaPower

02-28-2011, 07:21 AM

ill tell you when the series first came out i was not expecting the dragon lord, but hey it was Ninja Turtels and i didnt care, i watched it.

Bjarni

03-01-2011, 06:42 AM

I was expecting Super Shredder to come back
When I look back at the second one, it seems so obvious that they are bringing him back for a third film... or it at least seems that they kept it open for that reason if the next filmmakers wanted to go that route. As a kid, I never thought of him coming back. I just assumed he was dead, like he was in the first one.
So, I was not expecting Super Shredder in the third one, thinking back, it might have kept the franchise alive...

PizzaPower

03-01-2011, 06:43 AM

ssjup81

03-01-2011, 07:35 AM

When I look back at the second one, it seems so obvious that they are bringing him back for a third film... or it at least seems that they kept it open for that reason if the next filmmakers wanted to go that route. As a kid, I never thought of him coming back. I just assumed he was dead, like he was in the first one.
So, I was not expecting Super Shredder in the third one, thinking back, it might have kept the franchise alive...I thought he was dead in the first one too, but when seeing him get brought back for movie 2, I just figured, "Whoa, if they make a third movie, he's so going to come back!" I mean, come on! A DOCK fell on him! :lol: I was like, "He better come back!" Being taken out in that way was just beyond lame. ><