Carter? Dregg? What is this crap? [Archive]

cartoonistaaron

02-04-2011, 10:03 AM

So I was making dinner for me and my wife the other night and popped in the Season 1 DVD of the original 'toon. I decided I'd force myself to watch the 4 "Never Before Seen" episodes.

What the hell? Carter? Dregg? That scientist who looks just like the Mirage comic book Baxter Stockman?

What happened with these episodes? Where did the cartoon take such a weird left turn? Raph's replacement voice wasn't too bad but everything else stunk, on ice. Dregg and Mung had terrible designs, even if the guy doing Dregg's voice (Tony Jay?) was fantastic.

It felt like such an obvious "ratings are falling, shoehorn in everything you can think of" scenario. I never saw the last couple seasons of the show and didn't realize how far it had fallen. What an ignominious end to a once-great cartoon. Thank God for Turtles Forever.

Any other thoughts on the last couple seasons of the original cartoon? Am I alone in my distaste?

AquaParade

02-04-2011, 10:07 AM

That's pretty much how I felt about everything after season 1 :lol:

Still, that must have been a shocker, to someone who had never seen the "Red Sky" season, as I usually hear it called. All things considered, I wouldn't actually say it was the worst era of the old toon.

oldmanwinters

02-04-2011, 10:11 AM

At least the theme song & opening were pretty cool, even though the clips from the first live-action movie seemed ancient by the mid-90s. I recommend you watch Season 8, it had the improved art style and dramatic tension of the later seasons without the bizzare plot twists (second mutations) and lame new characters like Carter and Dregg.

DrSpengler

02-04-2011, 01:19 PM

I didn't mind them in the slightest, personally.

8 seasons of same ole-same ole was getting very, very montonous. I love the Fred Wolf series, I really do, but it was about as repetitive as 80s animation can get.

In Carter, it was nice for the Turtles to have a human ally that wasn't April and was used on a frequent basis. yeah, they had Zack and Casey, but we saw relatively little of them. The Turtles before the "Red Sky" episodes didn't have much in the way of a recurring supporting cast, which was a factor in the show getting stale quick.

And I enjoyed the change of pace that Lord Dregg brought as a villain. 8 seasons of Shredder and Krang had grown weary and season 8 gave them a fair enough sendoff as primary threats. Perhaps I enjoyed Dregg more thanks to Tony Jaye's voice over, but I was just happy to see a regular new villain enter the picture.

A lot of folks hates the last two seasons because of how different they are, but that's the reason I enjoy them.

sdp

02-04-2011, 01:30 PM

Funny my opinion is the exact opposite, now the only carter/dregg episodes I've seen are the ones from the S1 DVD and I thought they were great, yeah they are totally different but its a nice change to see the turtles being a bit more serious and a villain that posed a bigger threat, I thought the second mutation angle was kinda cool too, I look forward to seeing those seasons when I watch through the entire series in a few months, I'm done waiting for Lionsgate.

DrSpengler

02-04-2011, 01:35 PM

The econd mutations didn't bug me, either. It was nice to see episode-to-episode continuity and season-long story arcs return to the series, consistently, for the first time since season 2.

And the second mutations which a lot of people hated really didn't last as long as they'd have you think. Three or four episodes, was it?

Personally, I'm surprised it took until season 9 for the changes to the show to be implemeted. TMNT was long overdue for them, if you ask me.

Powder

02-04-2011, 06:12 PM

I LOVED it as a kid. LOVED IT. I wasn't huge on Dregg, but I loved the second mutations, the "real" foot clan, HAVOC, the dark tone, Aprils new role, and so forth. I don't like it now as much as I did then, but it was still a decent change of pace (Given the exception of Carter [Who should've just been Keno]).

Icebot

02-04-2011, 06:40 PM

I remember back in the day when I saw the first new episode of Season 9 for the first time ever, I was pretty excited to see Shredder and Krang, but instead we get this new guy Dregg. I was hoping the turtles would get rid of Dregg as soon as possible so Shredder and Krang could come back. But then it comes to this: week after week after week, Dregg is getting away just as Shredder used to, and coming back for another attempt to conquer the earth. And I was constantly asking the question: When are Shredder and Krang gonna come back?????

As for Carter, I wasn't too crazy about him either when he first arrived but I thought it was pretty cool how his mutation made him powerful, and I learned to like him more in Season 10, the turtles really needed him to help with Leonardo's mutation.

I learned to like Dregg as a villain once Mung told him about Shredder and Krang in Season 10 and broght them back to earth. I also liked how two of the turtles visited the Technodrome one last time, and used Krang's android body to battle Dregg.

Avatar Yuffie

02-04-2011, 07:18 PM

I actually like the direction of the Red Sky season... although it's kinda jarring if you watch the ending of season 7 (which is my favorite, right up with season 1) then go switch to the first episode of season 8 to the brand new character design.

But then again 2K3 ended in season 4 jumped the Lost Season to FF, so I guess it coulda been worse.

It's interesting to see Raphael and Donatello wondering if they're really should be bothering helping with humans, April going freelance and Leo getting an uncontrollable second mutation. Instead of Carter, they should have used Casey (w/c is funny because as much as I like Serling, if the Turtles needed a permanent robot in the lair, 4Kids should have just used Honeycutt). I also wish David Wise stayed with the series until the end, but well, what can one do...

Dregg is an ok villain. But I prefer the series ended with Shredder instead of him.

Wildgoose

02-05-2011, 03:44 AM

VaughnMichael

02-05-2011, 06:35 AM

I'll take the designs in the Red Sky series over anything in the 2k3 series anyday.
Mung is one of the coolest looking tmnt chracters ever.
He may be typical mad sidkick "yes master" but still he really had his moments.
As much as I enjoy Shredder and Krang in the later seasons the show needed some more stable bad guys and Dregg gave us just that and he wasn't after fuel in every episode which got old fast with S & K.
Anyway that's just my 2 cents..I loved when the turtles mutated again.
I could have done without Carter but the rest of the series is ace in my book.

cartoonistaaron

02-05-2011, 09:32 AM

Nice to see some discussion on this.

I thought the 2nd mutation thing was kind of a neat idea, but I'd like to have seen more April and maybe Casey Jones - heck, even an older version of Zack - versus some dude who had never been on the show suddenly pulling a Poochie and moving in.

The red sky look I thought was kinda neat, I guess it just "felt" weird. Certainly the Turtles themselves looked better than the 2k3 Turtles, but not as good as the old designs.

April's change was good. The Turtle designs were good. The thing with Rat King in the top hat was silly. The replacement of Shredder and Krang with two poorly designed villains filling the exact same role didn't work.

I think it would have worked better if they moved into more serious threats... things like the Rat King, or "Turtles in Space" type of stuff, versus the still-fairly-light stories with darker design elements.

VaughnMichael

02-05-2011, 06:33 PM

April's change was good. The Turtle designs were good. The thing with Rat King in the top hat was silly. The replacement of Shredder and Krang with two poorly designed villains filling the exact same role didn't work.

I think it would have worked better if they moved into more serious threats... things like the Rat King, or "Turtles in Space" type of stuff, versus the still-fairly-light stories with darker design elements.

Did you seriously even watch the entire Dregg series?
Because in the short period of time he was on the show he and Mung did things Shredder & Krang could never even come close to doing in the entire series run.
I also find it funny when people complain about them when they brought the 2 (Shredder & Krang) back and then they betrayed him in typical fashion.
I love how desperate Shredder & Krang are in the final episodes, it really adds more to their character in my opinion.
Oh and p.s. Rat King looks bad ass in his new outfit, A dudes gotta get some new threads at some point lol

CyberCubed

02-07-2011, 12:11 PM

Most people agree Lord Dregg becomes a much better character in Season 10. At first he just seems like an alien who befriends the humans and turns the world against the Turtles, but then in Season 10 he pretty much goes insane.

Season 10 was fantastic, and a great way to end the series. Here's hoping it gets released on DVD so more people can experience those episodes again.

cartoonistaaron

02-07-2011, 12:57 PM

Did you seriously even watch the entire Dregg series?
Because in the short period of time he was on the show he and Mung did things Shredder & Krang could never even come close to doing in the entire series run.
I also find it funny when people complain about them when they brought the 2 (Shredder & Krang) back and then they betrayed him in typical fashion.
I love how desperate Shredder & Krang are in the final episodes, it really adds more to their character in my opinion.
Oh and p.s. Rat King looks bad ass in his new outfit, A dudes gotta get some new threads at some point lol

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree!

I thought the Rat King just looked silly in the hat. I don't mind a redesign but that one I thought just didn't work.

As far as Dregg... Dregg shows up, tricks humans into liking him, Turtles are forced to defeat him... Not much new to see there. And shoehorning Carter in just made it that much worse. Dregg may have been tolerable if he'd had some connection to other characters or stories that had taken place earlier - perhaps some attempt to time him in to the Eye of Zarnoth or something.

I just would like to have seen something totally different. The Turtles in space for an extended period, for example. If they're going to change something, do something beyond cosmetic changes to longterm characters and the introduction of fill-in-the-blank villains with terrible character designs.

shuriken

02-07-2011, 01:57 PM

I thought it was awesome when it first aired. The show was totally getting stale by season 8 imo. But then dramatic changes took place in the TMNT's lives and their core characters and all that. Dregg was pretty cool, Carter was really vanilla, even with his bogus mutation. Which I thought was kinda wierd that the TMNT had those hulk moments. I love the episdoe where they go into the future where Dregg takes over, SAINW sort of reminded me of it. Not the best season IMO, but defenitely not the worst.

Ninja Turtles 25 Years

02-14-2011, 01:48 PM

I was neutral with Carter, but Dregg and his alien minions was the big error. Back in the day, when Dregg was new, I used to avoid the Saturday morning episodes on CBS until an episode where Shredder and Krang had returned. Several weeks later, I learned that it was over for Shredder and Krang, and I learned to get along with Dregg. And it's too bad that Shredder's role during the "Red Sky" seasons ended so soon into, because his role and voice got much more enhanced. I felt that this dark time in the 1994 - 1996 series would of been better for Shredder's appearance rather than looking for an excuse to eliminate him and Krang.

Spitfire

02-14-2011, 03:21 PM

Oh I get it. People didn't like Dregg because they wanted 2 more seasons, to add onto the pile of 8 or so, where Shredder and Krang were the main villains. I think it's very important a series stays exactly the same for as long as possible so it can be stale and boring. I mean some of the best episodes of season 7 totally weren't the ones without Shredder and Krang. I guess it's more creative to make up some lame mad scientist or toy maker to fight the turtles then an alien with an army who actually poses a threat. One who uses tactics to stop the turtles besides kidnap April and attack New York. It also totally sucked in Red Sky that Dregg wasn't even the main villain in every episode like Shredder and Krang were. They made up new and creative ones and even if they worked for him he wouldn't pop up until the end. That was just horrible.

gobo

02-14-2011, 04:37 PM

That was just horrible.
You can say that again!

Spitfire

02-14-2011, 06:03 PM

You can say that again!

I know I loved watching 6 seasons of the same story being told over and over again in a different setting. It's super engaging. Really creative too. I mean it's not like they had a huge successful toyline full of characters they could use besides Shredder and Krang.

Fugitoid Jones

02-15-2011, 04:13 AM

^^ @ Spitfire:

All I can think of is that scene from the first Mighty Ducks,

Gordon Bombay- "Do you guys know what sarcasm is?"

Chubby kid from Heavyweights- "NoOoOoOo!"

I couldn't get into the Red Sky seasons as a kid because at the time I thought Dregg was kinda too generic an alien villain, but mostly I think it was because I was starting to grow out of TMNT at the time anyway. Maybe if the Red Sky seasons had started earlier, I might've warmed up to Dregg and the extra mutations and Carter and blah blah blah.

Mona_Lisa

02-15-2011, 10:34 AM

At least the theme song & opening were pretty cool, even though the clips from the first live-action movie seemed ancient by the mid-90s.

I remember as a kid that I was really excited when the red sky seasons started even though I really disliked the new theme song and intro.

“the clips from the first live-action movie seemed ancient by the mid-90s”.

I liked that the battles got harder…. The turtles could get hurt. I loved Raph's bike…. But I hated Carter….. And I hated the turtles new mutations. I never finished the red sky episodes. But maybe someday I will…….:trolleye:

Sword Slicin' Leo

02-15-2011, 10:41 AM

It was stupid

Ninja Turtles 25 Years

02-16-2011, 07:49 PM

This could be my imagination, but Dregg reminds me of Jafar from Aladdin.

Spitfire

02-16-2011, 07:53 PM

I find it hilarious people hate on Fast Forward and BTTS for not being as "dark" as the rest of 2K3. The Red Sky OT debate is the polar opposite issue so you'd think more people would like it.

Avatar Yuffie

02-17-2011, 02:59 AM

I find it hilarious people hate on Fast Forward and BTTS for not being as "dark" as the rest of 2K3. The Red Sky OT debate is the polar opposite issue so you'd think more people would like it.

That's true. The similarities between the two shows are freakingly eerie too.

Though I'd like to think the Red Sky season is when the OT Turtles realized the good old mantra of "Growing up sucks", while the NT Turtles tries to lighten up (because I admit they all had pretty traumatic experiences in that show: almost blown up in outer space, getting their lairs trashed, dissection).

Icebot

02-17-2011, 06:47 AM

This could be my imagination, but Dregg reminds me of Jafar from Aladdin.

Dregg used to remind me of Jafar also. There's something they have in common: the name of the first episode of Season 10 is "The Return of Dregg". And one of the Aladdin movies is named "The Return of Jafar".

Bjarni

02-19-2011, 11:34 AM

Maybe not the best Turtle episodes, but I liked them. I liked the ongoing storyline, I liked that they were doing it more mature, I liked that they were introducing new characters.

I liked Carter. And I miss him. I hope to see him in the Nickelodeon show actually...

CyberCubed

02-19-2011, 11:43 AM

Season 10 was actually one of the best seasons of the OT.

gobo

02-19-2011, 10:43 PM

Season 10 was actually one of the best seasons of the OT.
:lol::lol::lol: Good one! :D

... That was a joke, right?

VaughnMichael

02-20-2011, 07:11 AM

Season 10 was actually one of the best seasons of the OT.
I'm going to have to agree with Cybercubed for once.
It is one of the best seasons of the old toon.

CyberCubed

02-20-2011, 02:49 PM

I cried when the original series ended back in 1996. Of course I was only like 11 or 12 years old at the time.

I knew Next Mutation was coming, but I was so sad knowing the cartoon had ended.

I feel they could have done one more final season afterward, but Season 10 was an alright ending. Its not like most American cartoons at the time ever had real endings anyway.

Mona_Lisa

02-21-2011, 12:07 PM

:tlol::lol::lol::lol: Good one! :D

... That was a joke, right?:tlol:

I hope it was a joke!!!!

CyberCubed

02-21-2011, 04:47 PM

There are people who didn't think Season 10 was excellent?

PizzaPower

02-21-2011, 05:01 PM

season 10 was amazing, but you could feel it was also the end of the old toon when you watch it.

Coola Yagami

02-21-2011, 10:28 PM

It wasn't dark.... it was a kiddie goofy cartoon pretending to be dark. They still had almost no fighting, Raph did little more than toss his Sais around, the wisecracks between 'fights' got lamer and they were still fighting brightly colored cartoony looking monsters.

But what could they do? After 8 seasons of slapstick comedy and goofy stuff like Elvis aliens and such... turning the characters into dropdead serious characters would confuse the hell out of the fans. It would be like a SuperFriends episode where Darkseid suddenly got serious and beat the SuperFriends bloody and the Wonder Twins sacrificed their lives to defeat him, following with an episode of mourning.

gobo

02-21-2011, 11:09 PM

It wasn't dark.... it was a kiddie goofy cartoon pretending to be dark.
See? He gets it.

oldmanwinters

02-21-2011, 11:13 PM

It wasn't dark.... it was a kiddie goofy cartoon pretending to be dark.

I guess after the Fred Wolf turtles met up with their "uber-serious" multiverse counterparts in the Turtles Forever crossover they decided, "hey, we can be dark and edgy too!":tlol:

Just kidding, just kidding...

Spitfire

02-21-2011, 11:31 PM

It wasn't dark.... it was a kiddie goofy cartoon pretending to be dark. They still had almost no fighting, Raph did little more than toss his Sais around, the wisecracks between 'fights' got lamer and they were still fighting brightly colored cartoony looking monsters.

There were fights every episode, sometimes several, and almost no wisecracks at all. So I'm not sure what show you watched. It was very 90s action cartoon. Sure it had colorful villains but they were a step up from their previous rogues gallery. They were actually threatening and the turtles didn't win all the time. They almost completely cut out the Channel 6 stuff, which up to that point served as a lot of the comic relief.

I don't proclaim it's the greatest turtles thing ever but it's no where near bad. Not liking it is fine but calling it horrible is just ignorant.

CyberCubed

02-21-2011, 11:46 PM

Wow, that is BS.

Seasons 8-10 had fight scenes in every episode, and far more fighting than most of the previous seasons. The Turtles almost died in several episodes. There were still some wise cracks from Raph though.

And it wasn't trying to be dark, they were just trying to be a more action oriented show. Which started back in Season 6, but whatever.

Avatar Yuffie

02-22-2011, 01:12 AM

Ironically that kiddy and goofy 87 cartoon was actually accused for promoting violence to young children. Because it doesn't really follow Saturday cartoon norms back then.

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-08-27/news/vw-116_1_teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles

So yeah, mind boggling. Had the 2K3 Turtles showed up back in the 90's they'd most likely suffer the same fate as Swat KATS.

I wouldn't call the Red Sky seasons "dark" (it would be dark if all the humans were killed when the Channel 6 blew up). Just a bit serious than what was once used to (and frankly I thank the X-Men and Batman the Animated Series for shoving the American animation industry to the right direction).

I guess after the Fred Wolf turtles met up with their "uber-serious" multiverse counterparts in the Turtles Forever crossover they decided, "hey, we can be dark and edgy too!":tlol:

Just kidding, just kidding...

XD

But I remember reading from a YT comment that he find it sad that the OT Turtles at the end of their series were bitter and unsure of themselves. I'd chalk it up to those nasty hormones. They'll get better.

PizzaPower

02-22-2011, 04:11 AM

they where unsure of themselfs, they knew it was the end. it was only a matter of time.

Fugitoid Jones

02-24-2011, 11:03 AM

they where unsure of themselfs, they knew it was the end. it was only a matter of time.

...only a matter of time before Venus showed up and put the Turtles' hormones into overdrive! Lookout Mikey! Looks like Kala has some competition!

Kinda off topic, but I always found it funny during the OT when someone/thing would get mutated and their clothes would get mutated too. Like, if some average guy began to mutate, suddenly he would have shoulder pads and chest armor and stuff.