I HATE Fathers and Sons!

[Jester]

Ok, so maybe hate is too strong a word, but of all of the "fill in the past/Baby Turtle" episodes, this is probably the most, "Really?" for me. For one, it makes it seem that Splinter knew why Yoshi was singled out by the Shredder, especially since he lays some blame on the Tribunal, who the Ancient One wanted Yoshi to train under. Splinter tells The Ancient One that if the Tribunal had taken care of "The Utrom Shredder" Yoshi would be alive...but wasn't Splinter just as shocked as anyone that Saki was in fact an Utrom? And way to shoehorn the Ancient One into the Pre-Teen Mutant Ninja Turtles lives.

[Candy Kappa]

I'n not a fan either of the kid turtle episodes

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Probably needed another episode to make it a thirteen-episode season when Nighmares Recycled was canceled, so they quickly scrapped up a terrible and boring story.

[BubblyShell22]

I love Turtle Tot episodes, so this one was fine with me. I do agree about the whole "Utrom Shredder" thing though that Splinter knew about it all along when he looked just as shocked as the Turtles in "Secret Origins." I think maybe that was due to careless writing on the writers' parts and that they forgot that little tibit. But it's not enough for me to really hate the episode.

[Luzmagica]

I love Turtle Tot episodes, so this one was fine with me. I do agree about the whole "Utrom Shredder" thing though that Splinter knew about it all along when he looked just as shocked as the Turtles in "Secret Origins." I think maybe that was due to careless writing on the writers' parts and that they forgot that little tibit. But it's not enough for me to really hate the episode.

100% agree.:thumbsup:

Who can hate this...?
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4665/turtletots.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/turtletots.jpg/)

or this...

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/963/tmntetoys.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/i/tmntetoys.jpg/)

[Jester]

100% agree.:thumbsup:

Who can hate this...?
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4665/turtletots.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/turtletots.jpg/)

or this...

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/963/tmntetoys.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/i/tmntetoys.jpg/)
Those are all well and good, but these Turtle Tots have Buck teeth....
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_BvMF1cOmSj4/TEYeuSc8f3I/AAAAAAAAETc/mETxg65L_vI/s1600/Teenage+Mutant+Ninja+Turtles+S05E10+Fathers+%26+So ns+%28DVB-T%29+N.M.S.jpg
To be fair the episode killer for me is the ret-con. The Turtles excitedly praising Splinter after he beats the demon is adorable. "Way to go dad!" is sooooo sweet. But I loathe shoehorning "The Turtles met ____ as kids" I'm surprised there wasn't an "Oh, they knew April before they "knew" April" episode.

[Revan]

But I loathe shoehorning "The Turtles met ____ as kids" I'm surprised there wasn't an "Oh, they knew April before they "knew" April" episode.

It seems like an effective technique to gain interest with kid viewers. It's so easy to write these shoehorns into the show to enhance the continuity (though older audiences recognize it as a cop out).
Still, your point is clear and I get why it seems lame.

Side note: I like the episode. It's such a guilty pleasure.:P

Edit: I just remembered a similar situation that I was wondering about when it was written. During the ninja tribunal arc, we learn the tengu shredder is the true shredder... blah! And his symbol is the same as chrell's only it is inverted to be a dragon foot. I didn't care for that. To me, the tengu shredder was the poser. Chrell was the true shredder. The entire series was based on chrell being shredder and then they up and change everything and now there is some demon coming to take over the world... who has been the "true" shredder all along...

[ToTheNines]

I'm surprised there wasn't an "Oh, they knew April before they "knew" April" episode.

I bet one of the writers made a draft for one, but it just didn't get used.

[k_lala]

I thought the episode was great. When all the NT episodes were released on Youtube I remember this episode being the highest viewed out of all of them.

I have to rewatch the series again to see if Splinter always knowing Shredder was an utrom. Maybe the writers did it that way so us fans would be shocked as well at the same time.

[oldmanwinters]

I agree that this episode wreaked havoc on the continuity, even though the damage had already been done by the revelation that the Guardians knew Shredder was an Utrom all along, yet presumed him dead after his beheading in Return to New York Part 3.

[k_lala]

I agree that this episode wreaked havoc on the continuity, even though the damage had already been done by the revelation that the Guardians knew Shredder was an Utrom all along, yet presumed him dead after his beheading in Return to New York Part 3.

Your right about that, like i said, I believe the writers of the show did this intensionally to leave us "fans" in suspense and shock when they would reveal the utrom thing later on.

The continuity thing wasn't a make or break for me. I really liked the coolness factor of how shocked I was when it was all revealed. It was all part of there storyline as well, leading all the way up to the end through Tribunal.

[oldmanwinters]

But I loathe shoehorning "The Turtles met ____ as kids" I'm surprised there wasn't an "Oh, they knew April before they "knew" April" episode.

This is another thing that started to annoy me about the series, since the continuity established the facts that the turtles had met the Ancient One, Casey Jones, and Serling as toddlers. The whole deal with training a young Casey really undermined the concept that April was the first human contact they had, since they were pretty much meeting Casey on a fixed schedule in the daylight. It undermines the whole taboo about going up to the surface in "Things Change."

[BubblyShell22]

What's wrong with buck teeth? I had buck teeth as a kid and for even longer until I got my braces. I thought it was cute that they had buck teeth. When I saw it I said to myself, "Hey, they were just like me."

As for them meeting Casey when they were younger, they never knew it was him. We don't even know until near the end when he says his trademark battle cry. At the end of that ep, they wonder about what happened to that kid, never knowing that he was standing right in front of them. I thought that was funny.

[gobo]

Splinter tells The Ancient One that if the Tribunal had taken care of "The Utrom Shredder" Yoshi would be alive
And, despite all his rage, Splinter'd still be a rat in a cage... leaving The Turtles defenseless when they get mutated.
Probably needed another episode to make it a thirteen-episode season when Nighmares Recycled was canceled
But, it's only a 12-ep season without "Nightmares Recycled".
I'm surprised there wasn't an "Oh, they knew April before they "knew" April" episode.
Note to self: write this idea into a 'fic for Jestahman... :evilgrin:

[Jester]

As for them meeting Casey when they were younger, they never knew it was him. We don't even know until near the end when he says his trademark battle cry. At the end of that ep, they wonder about what happened to that kid, never knowing that he was standing right in front of them. I thought that was funny.
yes, but like Winters said, it undermines the "April was their first human friend" and "DO NOT GO TO THE SURFACE!" in season 1. I guess you could chalk that up to the Turtles learning their lesson at the end of...er...The Lesson.

[Ninjinister]

One part that really stood out for me about this episode was when Splinter had to tell Ancient One that Yoshi was dead. That moment felt like a punch to the gut - like a brief moment of "Tales of Yoshi" all over again.

[Raph's Girl]

yes, but like Winters said, it undermines the "April was their first human friend" and "DO NOT GO TO THE SURFACE!" in season 1. I guess you could chalk that up to the Turtles learning their lesson at the end of...er...The Lesson.

At the end of TMNT Adventures Splinter reveals to April that she wasn't their first human friend. No. Their first human friend was Lynda Ling (who Splinter knew when he was human but the turtles met her as children). :P

[Jester]

At the end of TMNT Adventures Splinter reveals to April that she wasn't their first human friend. No. Their first human friend was Lynda Ling (who Splinter knew when he was human but the turtles met her as children). :P
GAH. Countered with Archie. :P

[Tinuvielsdreams]

I didn't mind "The Lesson" I got the turtle tot action figures
I kept trying to decide if the whole thing worked for me as far as ages of the characters. I also doubt they would have duped Splinter so easily; all knowing ninja master who doesn't know when his kids are sneaking around

Father and sons I don't care for. Their faces reminded me of bugs bunny crossed with a turtle tot. I understand what they were going for with the cute little kid teeth thing but I think they went over board.

I really enjoyed season 4 but I don't go out of my way to re-watch that particular eppy

As for "True shredder", anything to avoid bringing in a whole new enemy...:P

[Jester]

What's funny about whole "One True Shredder" thing is that in one of the episodes Yoshi says that Ch'rell may be just as big a threat as the demon Shredder.

[Tinuvielsdreams]

What's funny about whole "One True Shredder" thing is that in one of the episodes Yoshi says that Ch'rell may be just as big a threat as the demon Shredder.

Don't recall that but maybe in the television movie he was :lol:

[Koi]

Some of my favourite episodes were when they are tiny little turtles.

[ToTheNines]

Loved the flashbacks in "Tales of Leo"... and I draw the line there aside from "Triptyche" and a few of shorts from Tales of the TMNT.

[Luzmagica]

Some of my favourite episodes were when they are tiny little turtles.

Yes...I confess ...I love :tlove: Tiny little turtles...so cute!
Even this examples :
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/34/teenagemutantninja.jpg (http://img710.imageshack.us/i/teenagemutantninja.jpg/)


Loved the flashbacks in "Tales of Leo"... and I draw the line there aside from "Triptyche" and a few of shorts from Tales of the TMNT.

Me too!!

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1/tales1w.jpg (http://img69.imageshack.us/i/tales1w.jpg/)

:tgrin:

[Jester]

Tales of Leo works. It doesn't try to shoe horn in characters like The Lesson, Fathers and Sons, and The Incredible Shrinking Serling. I've never liked it...even in the last Archie books ;) or the Star Wars prequels.

[Tinuvielsdreams]

I didn't think about tales of Leo for some reason but yes I loved it applied to that concept, it was appropriate

[BubblyShell22]

Tales of Leo has to be one of my favorite eps ever.

I understand what you mean, Jester, but it makes sense in a way. I always wondered how The Ancient One knew who Leonardo was when Leo went to train with him. They never introduced themselves formally, so it makes sense that The AO recongized him from that visit.

[Jester]

How did Yoda recognize Luke?

Just sayin'

[gobo]

How did Yoda recognize Luke?
Obi Wan told Yoda he was coming, duh.

[oldmanwinters]

I always wondered how The Ancient One knew who Leonardo was when Leo went to train with him. They never introduced themselves formally, so it makes sense that The AO recongized him from that visit.

I figured Splinter either sent him a letter snail-mail style, or else met up with him on the Astral Plane, as he is so fond of doing.

[gobo]

I love Mothers & Daughters. ^_^

At least the sweet ones... The sweet ones are so sweet. :goofygri:

[Vivi]

I'm watching it right now, it's kinda cute.

I like that Splinter and the Ancient One were reconnected after his mutation and before the Tribunal episodes. It makes sense.

Also, Raph is a brat.

[BubblyShell22]

Of course Raph is a brat. Some kids are at that age.

[gobo]

Raph's always been a brat. It's due to a little thing called self-control that he doesn't have very much of.

[Sword Slicin' Leo]

I'n not a fan either of the kid turtle episodes

Then just don't watch them...there are only so many ideas left

[twopinacoladas]

I enjoyed that episode, I'd almost say I like it more than the others from the Ninja Tribunal episodes.

I almost cant stand the other characters Adam, Joi must have been created for toys? Tho I don't know if they actually made those ones. Also that Raph turns into a bladed wheel seemed stupid to me. I think it gets better by the end and after watching it again I actually do like the Ancient One more than when I originally watched it. Its decent as its a long story arch, I don't dislike it as much as I did my first viewing so much now.

[Cowabunga Carl]

I always kind of dug this episode. I mean it was to see the family unit as a whole. It was nice to see. Plus they get their bandana's it was cute.

[ABrown]

Fathers And Sons was such a huge continuity error. The episode makes it pretty clear that Splinter knew that Shredder was an utrom. And if he did know, didn't he think that it was something that the turtles needed to know when they were fighting Shredder all those times in the first season? He didn't think that it might be useful to mention to them that: "hey, if you cut off Shredder's head, it not going to kill him."

It's another one of the many reasons that I don't think that it was the creators original intention to make the Shredder an utrom. I think that while the first season was in production, it somehow was decided that they would make the Shredder an utrom. In any event, Fathers And Sons is another one of those cases where it's better not to think about it. It's better to just sit back and enjoy the ride.

[oldmanwinters]

It's another one of the many reasons that I don't think that it was the creators original intention to make the Shredder an utrom. I think that while the first season was in production, it somehow was decided that they would make the Shredder an utrom.

Nah, I think all the clues for an Utrom Shredder are there in the first season: The fact that Saki's stomach is never exposed and always mysteriously wrapped in bandages, the centuries-old feud between Shredder & the Utroms referenced in "The Shredder Strikes pt.1," the little Utrom detail at the hilt of the Sword of Tengu, and the fact that the rooftop fight in "Return to New York Pt.3," and the fact that Peter Laird teases a surprise origin twist for the Shredder in the Special Features of the early DVDs. But I suppose you could always ask Peter Laird what the deal was on his TMNT blog.

probably couldn't have concluded any other way than having Shredder beheaded. The Utrom-Shredder reveal was an organic and necessary twist to tie together the Foot Clan and Utrom plots. It also served as a convenient and necessary way for Shredder to get his head chopped off so early in the series.

I do agree that Fathers & Sons is just a colossal blunder by the show's brain trust, though.

[FearlessLeader]

As far as I recall from talking to a few of the voice actors from the show, they had a "Turtles Bible" prior to season one with plot points of pretty much the entire series planned out, up to what I am assuming was season 5.

So as with all the hints oldmanwinters already pointed out I do believe Ch'rell was planned from the start.

[Xav]

I agree that this episode wreaked havoc on the continuity, even though the damage had already been done by the revelation that the Guardians knew Shredder was an Utrom all along, yet presumed him dead after his beheading in Return to New York Part 3. They never said he was dead they said he was defeated.

[Koi]

I want to read this so called "turtles bible" now...

[oldmanwinters]

They never said he was dead they said he was defeated.

That's because "dead" is one of the eight words you can never say on (children's) television.:twink:

I want to read this so called "turtles bible" now...

Hmm...


In the beginning, Kevin & Peter created the turtles and their multiverse. Now the multiverse was without depth and the turtles generally lacked distinctive personalities (except for Raphael being that loner, cool-but-rude guy that he is). People bought the first comic so Kevin & Peter said "Let there be a second issue," and there was a second issue introducing an ally and a new villain (the original antagonist was just a one-shot chump who was easily disposed of). Kevin & Peter saw that the second issue also sold well, so they decided to keep on pumping out issues every few months gradually giving each turtle their own personality. Truth be told, that third issue was kinda pointless, but things really started taking off (literally) once the turtles found that alien transporter that sent them into space for three issues.

Then Kevin & Peter said, Let us feature filler stories until we can think of a new villain," but since none of the candidates really stuck they decided to resurrect the cheese-grater cosplayer and leave readers to wonder how he wasn't dead. The answer never really came until decades later outside of some vague hints in issues 19-21 that can be a little hard to read on account of how dark the ink is. But I digress; are not these things already discussed across the internet?

Mark Freedman saw that the TMNT franchise was good and it could possibly become a brand with mass appeal given the right presentation. The turtles got shopped to Playmates toys, who then decided to pony up and pay for a few episodes of an animated cartoon. Fred Wolf saw that the cartoon was good, so he decided to start pumping out shows by the dozen. Steve Barron saw that it was good enough to make at least one decent movie with the help of Kermit the Frog's friends.

Eventually, kids got tired of the cartoon because they were deceived by the false prophets of the Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers in the 90s and that last live-action movie had left a bad taste in many folks' mouths. Kevin decided that if you can't beat the Rangers then you might as well join them, so he let Saban take a crack at their own turtle costumes (which proved to be of only slightly less quality than those seen in the third movie). Unfortunately, the world wasn't yet ready to embrace a female mutant ninja turtle, so that show got canned after a year.

Kevin, being the aficionado for drawing bullets & boobs decided to sell all he owned and buy Heavy Metal magazine, leaving Peter to make the turtles in his own image. Through his prophet, Mark Goldfine, Peter created another cartoon that tried to ignore the original series in everyway save for the colored bandannas. Many fans of the old show never embraced this new interpretation of the franchise, continuing to ignore the comic book source material while repeatedly asking the question, "why are there so many Krangs?" The comics still continued although most of the issues printed went unsold and unread while Peter's editorials became a soap box for political diatribes and rebukes of critiques. Eventually, Peter abandoned the comics to focus on a new movie that very few people actually saw. Having given his entire life's focus to the TMNT for over twenty-five years, Peter finally rested on the twenty-sixth year, selling off the franchise lock, stock, and barrel to Nickelodeon, where it remains to this day.

:lol:

[ABrown]

They never said he was dead they said he was defeated.

Then how do you explain why the same guardian was surprised to supposedly see Shredder alive when the turtles set the trap for him?

[Xav]

Fathers And Sons was such a huge continuity error. The episode makes it pretty clear that Splinter knew that Shredder was an utrom. And if he did know, didn't he think that it was something that the turtles needed to know when they were fighting Shredder all those times in the first season? He didn't think that it might be useful to mention to them that: "hey, if you cut off Shredder's head, it not going to kill him."

It's another one of the many reasons that I don't think that it was the creators original intention to make the Shredder an utrom. I think that while the first season was in production, it somehow was decided that they would make the Shredder an utrom. In any event, Fathers And Sons is another one of those cases where it's better not to think about it. It's better to just sit back and enjoy the ride. And you think Splinter would know the water tower wouldn't kill him. And the Shredder as an Utrom thing was planned from the start I remember Peter said it somewhere.

[oldmanwinters]

Conclusive evidence for the Saki = Utrom reveal being planned from the beginning:
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/blast-from-past-139-evil-utrom-designs.html

[Jester]

Conclusive evidence for the Saki = Utrom reveal being planned from the beginning:
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/blast-from-past-139-evil-utrom-designs.html
I still don't buy it. Now, if Kevin Eastman had said it...I'd believe it....and probably buy it for $80!

[ABrown]

So after seeing this episode, did most people believe that Master Splinter knew all along that Shredder was an utrom? Do people just take this episode to be a continuity error? This episode really was something that I was always curious about what other turtles fans thought.

[Revan]

So after seeing this episode, did most people believe that Master Splinter knew all along that Shredder was an utrom? Do people just take this episode to be a continuity error? This episode really was something that I was always curious about what other turtles fans thought.

It's a mistake that works best if you simply don't think about it and just try to enjoy the episode... if possible

it seemed like more people took issue with the way the turtle tots were drawn more than anything