Early Apologies

[CookSux]

I don't want to drag things on long after they're dealt with, but I feel as if whenever there's a cool "Religion" thread up, I don't get to post anything because it's locked before I get a chance to lay my 2 cents down. But technically, Christianity isn't a religion it's a relationship, so the whole "don't talk about religion" rule shouldn't apply :P

Hmm aside from going into depth and explaining how evolution is not possible, I'll just post something in response to Tokka's ignorant comment about how "Jesus never existed or never died for anyone". First of all, there is written proof that he was a real person, not only because of the Bible, but all other documents that came from that time period. Plus... I don't know if it was King Herod or Ceasar, but one of them forced everyone to be registered. Even that is proof of an actual man. That's why he's written in most history books of the time. Even Ceasar turned Christian. BTW if you're going to argue against Christianity, at least read the document that everyone like you does. Then again, you might convert like good old Darwin himself.

[Duke]

Christianity isn't a religion it's a relationshipAmen

[Tokka-B]

Yea, this topic definately shouldn't have been brought up.....

But if you want a debate over evolution and such matters, I'd be more than happy to have one with you, we could invite others too, but the only problem would be that it couldn't be held on this board... :wink:

[BigThew]

i think this may be the wrong message board to discuss these topics
there are plenty of other message baords to discuss religion

people are allowed to hzve their own oppinons and beliefs...leave it at that

[Tokka-B]

Of course they are, but the excitement of a debate is to learn from each other and compare our opinions in a formal way....So it would be boring if everyone had an opinion and nothing to talk about...

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

CookSux, people have the right to be whatever religion they want!
Anyway, this threads just going to turn into another flame war.

BTW I do agree with one thing, Jesus is a proven historical figure. It's like debating if Napolean existed. But, the question is if he is what he was believed to be.
Let's just talk about candy!

[GK Punk]

CookSux, people have the right to be whatever religion they want!
Anyway, this threads just going to turn into another flame war.

BTW I do agree with one thing, Jesus is a proven historical figure. It's like debating if Napolean existed. But, the question is if he is what he was believed to be.
Let's just talk about candy!

WRONG!

You CANNOT prove that Napolean exsisted! :lol:
just kiddin' tetsu! :lol:

[Machias Banshee]

*grins* ONe of my relatives was a General in Napolean's army, AND...one of his relatives was the author of "the 3 musketeers" the man in the iron mask" and "the count of monte cristo" ...



:D

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

Cool!
I'm a decendant of Charlemaigne!

[Leo656]

I have indisputable proof Napoleon existed.

He was in "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure". Film doesn't lie. Especially that movie.

[GK Punk]

I have indisputable proof Napoleon existed.

He was in "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure". Film doesn't lie. Especially that movie.

Bah! That film was modified by the US Government to make us non-napolean believers to look bad!

[Leo656]

I figured you'd be the first person to cite that movie as proof Napoleon exists, GK. That would prove that at some point in history there lived a bowler worse than you are.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

ooh burn! :lol:

[GK Punk]

That would prove that at some point in history there lived a bowler worse than you are.

Can't argue there... I AM the worst bowler

[Leo656]

I can just see GK in a Napoleon costume slamming his fist on the floor at the bowling alley saying "SH*T" in French over and over again. That'd be a pisser.

[Machias Banshee]

:lol: I didnt think GK was THAT short... ;) :P :D

[GK Punk]

I can just see GK in a Napoleon costume slamming his fist on the floor at the bowling alley saying "SH*T" in French over and over again. That'd be a pisser.

merde! Soyez silencieux vous, fiend!

[kyabetsu]

*plays the sacred chord on her air guitar*

WHAAAAAAhahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

be EXCELLENT to each other....

[Leo656]

Hoooboy, looks like Kya's gotten into the brownies again! :evilgrin:

[GK Punk]

*pases brownies to the left hand side

Sounds like a fine idea, leo, sounds like a fine idea indeed

[kyabetsu]

*takes the brownies gleefully and also passes them left. Hums "Pass the dutchie on da left han' side..." through a mouthful of brownie*

[GK Punk]

bwahahaha you are the only other person I know that would make reference to that song

[Leo656]

Heh, I think we started a possible "mango-killer" of a food craze...

[GK Punk]

Heh, I think we started a possible "mango-killer" of a food craze...

INDEED!

[kyabetsu]

i love that song...


~* it was a cool an lovely, breezy afternoon.... *~

*dances*

[Leo656]

Heh... sooo, Kya... you celebrating tomorrow? :evilgrin:

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

I think we're all getting a little extra "grass" in our easter Baskets this year. :evilgrin:

[kyabetsu]

dude... i celebrate EVERY DAY.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Leo656]

Hey, kya, your watch looks like it's stopped. What time does it say? :lol:

[kyabetsu]

*raises head SLOOOOWLY. Blinks at Leo.*

whaaaat?

man... you got anymore Brownies... i'm STARVED...

:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:
:tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza: :tpizza:

[GK Punk]

*hands more brownies to Kya

[kyabetsu]

dang. you just keep feedin' a habit dontcha. :P
i'm glad i ain't countin' on nobody ta cut me off when i've had enough. :lol: :lol:

oh!
way off topic but i FINALLY got a copy of PHOTOSHOP!!!

*kya commenses work on her own sig line banner.*

[GK Punk]

dang. you just keep feedin' a habit dontcha. :P
i'm glad i ain't countin' on nobody ta cut me off when i've had enough. :lol: :lol:

oh!
way off topic but i FINALLY got a copy of PHOTOSHOP!!!

*kya commenses work on her own sig line banner.*

:lol:
I could have given you a copy of photoshop

[Leo656]

I thought there was an unspoken rule that we were going to stomp out this thread by being as OT as possible, thus preventing the possibility of any religious debates, discussions, or arguments?

Don't whiz in the punch bowl, HT. :evil: :P

[Tokka-B]

Ugh, that's the last thing we need, mods breaking the rules of the forum.... :evil:

Anyway, if you guys would like to have a debate somewhere else please let me know...

**Laughs at how they will wimp out** :lol:

[Leo656]

Sadly, I don't mind intelligent debates about sensitive issues.

But I tend to agree with a lot of your points on the subject, rendering the need for debate pointless. :|

Machias might though, I had a good discussion about it with her earlier. Go see if she'll bite. :D

[HorseTechie]

Oh we were...? Sorry, I missed that whole fiasco thing last night... complete with unspoken rules.

Not that I said anything really! :goofygri:

[Machias Banshee]

*taps riding crop in one hand*

Naughty horse mods need to learn their lesson.... :evilgrin:

[Leo656]

Too bad Krang deleted most of the threads, HT. You missed a hoot. :lol:

[Tokka-B]

I wasn't talking about you leo, I was talking about having a debate with cook and any other creationist who doesn't agree with me...

[Leo656]

Yeah, I didn't figure you meant me, cuz like I said, I personally think a lot of what you've said makes sense. I was just saying that it really is kinda funny that one of the people that really doesn't mind debating these kinds of issues is one of the people that agrees with you, that's all.

[CookSux]

Hmm how about instead of a debate we post valid sound points on your case. Since you are leaning towards evolution here's what I, and many other scientists, have discovered.

It is true that there is no proof of macroevolution. Fossil records and such aren't enough, and it's merely just a bias from scientists who believe that it is from so called evolution. You all should realize that Darwin himself turned Christian in his later days, and debunked his whole theory on evolution. Sure it's true that microevolution happens, such as bacteria growing resistant to antibiotics, but it's not enough for such drastic changes in macroevolution. If we consider an arm to be a machine and say that it came from a fin, it's ridiculous. An arm is made up of many parts working in a complex system. Evolution requires things to progress in a step by step progression over many years. So basically it'd start off as a tiny nub and etc. If we put in natural selection into play, what the heck kind of advantage is it in the grand scheme of things? So it'd be nearly impossible for that to happen... plus it'd take an incredibly long time. Not only this, but evolutionists don't have solid facts when it comes to mapping out species. Either way, I just think that most of you don't know what you're talking about and regurgitating what they heard in their science class. Plus let's add in the whole Big Bang Theory. Sure it's possible that two nuclear atoms hurtling through space randomly smacked each other from out of no where, but it doesn't just happen. The energy it would require is immeasurable and almost impossible for it to happen without some supernatural hand in the big picture. The creation of life itself, saying that we came from single celled organisms? That's ludicrous. First of all, if we're all talking about things being random... there are 55 unique codes of RNA for something to be created. For life to first start, the organism must be able to replicate itself. So this creature must have two sets of these "randomly" crated genes. Scientists have figured, that if such a random occurance happened, the total amount of RNA is larger then the size of the Earth. I'm a little skeptical when people say that things just happened out of no where, especially with these facts. It all has to do with information. For example, if you put a group of monkies in front of a computer and left them there for many years, sure it's possible that somewhere in that garbled mess would be Shakespeare's Hamlet. But just because it's there doesn't mean that the monkey meant anything. Shakespeare wrote Hamlet with a meaning and could also bust out many plays in a single year. Just because random codes of genetic makeup are being pumped out doesn't mean that they stand for anything. BTW scientists have newly discovered that our genetic makeup is more similar to whales than monkies. Does that mean we come from whales? Besides, let's say that Leonardo DaVinci made two paintings. They're both similar because they both came from the same artist. So monkies resemble human beings... they're just another piece of art if you ask me.

[GK Punk]

Just want to point out to everyone, Krang has already said he plans to lock all religious conversations now days, so just becareful in the direction your debate goes... and Please don't tell anyone what not to believe in

[CookSux]

Yeah, but I'm willing to get a strike as long as I get my point across. Besides, I'm not really debating the whole Evolution vs Creationism thing for the sake of being a Christian. I'm just pointing scientific findings out as they are in the real world.

[GK Punk]

Well aslong as you know what could happen :)

[Leo656]

Cook, I like ya, really, I just don't wanna see anymore arguments. That's my only problem.

And I'm gonna speak my p.o.v. on the entire thing, trying hard to keep religion out of it as much as possible.

I, myself, am an agnostic. I don't so much have strict beliefs as I do ideas. I believe God may exist, but not to the point where I would ever feel right telling someone that their ideas or beliefs is wrong.

For example, some of Tokka's arguments make sense to me, therefore I lean towards them a little bit more. But I'm not gonna stand up and say they're right, just like I'm not gonna stand up and say you or anyone else is.

I can not and would never say anyone else is right or wrong about stuff like that, for one reason: If there is a God, I'm pretty sure I'm not Him, and therefore I do not know everything (as hard as it may be to believe).

The whole debate is arrogant, because it operates under the assumption that the speaker, no matter WHAT they believe, knows the intricate details of life, creation, and everything else. And we DON'T. Nobody does.

There is no right or wrong. There's you, there's me, there's what you believe and there's what I believe. Somewhere along the way, we believe some of the same things. Somewhere else along the way, our points of view differ.

There's no right or wrong beliefs, just different. I wish people would understand that more often, because then humankind in general would be a lot more tolerant, and there would be a lot less conflict in the world.

And that's as serious as I'm gonna get for one weekend. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[CookSux]

Regardless of how bad it is for spitting my mouth, I tend to speak my mind very easily. I know that it isn't good to rebuke people for believing in their own thing. Besides, I'm not forcing anyone to believe anything. It's just that when it comes down the to cold hard facts, I'm very stubborn about it. Oh well, I'll probably get my 1 and only warning, but I say that it's worth it... it's not like that's set in stone.

[Machias Banshee]

*shakes head, whimpering*

why...why....why.....


look, guys...we had this mess happen last night...I didnt get much sleep cuz of it....i had lil sleep cuz i got up for the cartoon....its that special time.....this is not a good time to start up this stuff....

Look, no matter what youre beliefs, they are YOURS. Do not try and get "points across" or "explain your reasonings"....

please, get off the subject of macroevolution, creation vs. evolution, all that... I'm geting cramped from locking so many threads in such a short time....

[Leo656]

I'unno, I dont think a warning is due really. You havent resorted to knocking anyone personally, that I've seen, and that's when these things get outta hand. Like BIC's thread yesterday was doomed from the first post when he made a crack about heretic.

It's not so much the idea of debates about sensitive issues, it's that when it comes to stuff like religion nobody ever wants to admit that they might be wrong about anything so oftentimes personal attacks get thrown in because people run out of ways to actually support their argument. That's when threads get locked and people get warnings.

[Leo656]

((raises eyebrow at Machias...))

"That special time"...? "Cramps"?

Uh oh... look out, everyone, we got a menstruating reptile on our hands! We DEFINITELY don't wanna make her mad!

[Leo656]

Hey, c'mon, that was clever! None of YOU thought of it!

[Machias Banshee]

*Shmucks Leo upside the head with her army boot*

[CookSux]

I don't want to think about that.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

I think Leo has the right idea.
But, for the record belief in evolution does not make someone an athiest!
For all any of us knows, evolution my be a system for God(or gods) to improve on their work.
Personally I go with the Zenist philosophy on the subject:
It matters not why or how things are, but that they are!

BTW Don't let this get out of hand or "Brother Tetsu" will need to make another sermon! :evilgrin:

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

At least I won't pick on you Machi,
I'm a guy with a good attitude about menstration. :lol:

[Leo656]

HALLELUJAH, Brother Tetsu!

...which reminds me... did you rinse out the collection plate since last night?

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

Of course! :lol:

[CookSux]

Actually people are either creationists, or naturalist/materialist when it comes to the start of life. But on your comment about evolution being a system for God (or gods) improving their work... wouldn't that just make God imperfect from the start? And if God (or gods) was imperfect, then what's the point in believing in him?

[Machias Banshee]

:sick: oh god...gutter mind... ew ew ew ew ew ew ewwwwwww!!!

[Leo656]

Maybe God would use evolution as a tool, I'unno. Maybe He prefers not to get involved directly. I know that if I had a job like his I'd try not to get my hands dirty too much either. Too much work. What good is being omnipotent if you never have time to enjoy it?

Besides, if God actually did get his hands dirty He woulda smacked me around on general principle by now for being such a jackass. Not to mention what I did to Brother Tetsu's collection plate.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

Actually people are either creationists, or naturalist when it comes to the start of life. But on your comment about evolution being a system for God (or gods) improving their work... wouldn't that just make God imperfect from the start? And if God (or gods) was imperfect, then what's the point in believing in him?
People can have very different beliefs and can not be categorized into two groups like that. Also people have different Ideas of God as well.

[CookSux]

People can have very different beliefs and can not be categorized into two groups like that. Also people have different Ideas of God as well.


I'm aware of that, but we're talking about the beginning of life itself. There really is no middle ground. If you don't believe in creationism, then you're a naturalist/materialist and vice versa. It's a black and white thing. Besides, I'm sure people have different definitions of who or what God is, but that's not what the point of this discussion is. It's like, you can't say that you're tall and short at the same time. (Bad example, but I hope it kinda makes sense)

[GK Punk]

Maybe God would use evolution as a tool, I'unno. Maybe He prefers not to get involved directly. I know that if I had a job like his I'd try not to get my hands dirty too much either. Too much work. What good is being omnipotent if you never have time to enjoy it?

Besides, if God actually did get his hands dirty He woulda smacked me around on general principle by now for being such a jackass. Not to mention what I did to Brother Tetsu's collection plate.


Leo, it is such a tragedy the way you besmirched Brother Tetsu's collection plate...

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

People can have very different beliefs and can not be categorized into two groups like that. Also people have different Ideas of God as well.


I'm aware of that, but we're talking about the beginning of life itself. There really is no middle ground. If you don't believe in creationism, then you're a naturalist/materialist and vice versa. It's a black and white thing. Besides, I'm sure people have different definitions of who or what God is, but that's not what the point of this discussion is.
What I'm saying is that it's not a "black and White" issue someone can believe in middle ground. I suppose I do. Although I don't concerm myself much with it.
I brought up the different Ideas of God because not every religion has the idea of "infallability".

[Leo656]

I told him to knock that "Hallelujah" stuff off. He knew what would happen.

Besmirched it once, I did, besmirch it again I shall, should he get out of line.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

I told him to knock that "Hallelujah" stuff off. He knew what would happen.

Besmirched it once, I did, besmirch it again I shall, should he get out of line.
Actually my church is so poor we took it as a donation. :lol:

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

:sick: oh god...gutter mind... ew ew ew ew ew ew ewwwwwww!!!
What's that suppossed to mean? :-?

[Reznorite420]

CookSux:

1) The Bible is not a historical document, it is in essence just a book of parables in a metaphorical sense that really should not be taken literally in every part

2) Jesus may have existed (he obviously did if there's Roman historcial archival evidence), but how do we know he didn't suffer from some mental illness? IMO, the ramblings of Jesus on how he could heal people and other happenings would be considered schizophrenic today. But that's only by scientific fact. An open mind like mine would think that perhaps he DID perform those miracles, but I only take that with a grain of salt at this point.

As archaic I think religions such as Christianity are, I don't shrug it off as pure nonsense *coughunliketokkacough*. There might be some truth in it.

NB: This is all I will contribute to this thread. I will neither respond to nor criticize what anybody else says beyond here. I will never even read this topic as long as it remains open.

[CookSux]

1) The Bible is not a historical document, it is in essence just a book of parables in a metaphorical sense that really should not be taken literally in every part

2) Jesus may have existed (he obviously did if there's Roman historcial archival evidence), but how do we know he didn't suffer from some mental illness? IMO, the ramblings of Jesus on how he could heal people and other happenings would be considered schizophrenic today. But that's only by scientific fact. An open mind like mine would think that perhaps he DID perform those miracles, but I only take that with a grain of salt at this point.

How can anyone say that the Bible isn't a historical document? People might not take it word for word, but it's not one lavish story book. BTW I don't think Jesus ever went around claiming that he could heal the sick or such, in fact he tried to avoid giving away his location. In many cases Jesus would heal someone, and tell them not to tell anyone... yet the person who had been healed went out proclaiming it like any sensible person would. Jesus wasn't boastful of his gifts, so I don't understand where the schizophrenia would come into play. Besides, I've seen some mighty crazy things and conclude that anyone with multiple personality disorders are possessed by an evil spirit. There have been times when I've seen demon casting and all that jazz so the whole Spiritual Warfare thing isn't too new to me. But that's just getting off topic.

[kyabetsu]

I'm a guy with a good attitude about menstration. :lol:

what the heck...?

uh. dude.
look.
there's not too much POSITIVE about it.
what you just said up there is like saying, " I'm the guy with the GOOD attitude about tunneling bed sores. "
it happens but NOBODY, us ladies included, has a particularly good attitude about it.

"...because it suckith.
it suckith EPIC amounts of booty."
--(kya, 4:13-14)

[Krang]

I've said this many times before: No more topics relating to religion. I wouldn't mind it at all if it weren't for certain closed-minded members who can't handle it without attacking other people's beliefs. I'm not going to give you a warning, CookSux, since you discussed it maturely and didn't get a chance to discuss it last time, but please don't start any more threads about it in the future until those people can prove that they are mature enough to discuss it.