IDW Oroku Saki has a scar over his left eye like the 4Kids cartoon Shredder/Ch'rell.

[Keldor1578]

Does anyone think that Oroku Saki is connected to Ch'rell, one theory that i have, Oroku saki is the reincarnated Ch'rell. It might explain why the Shredder and Krang are enemies, Maybe Ch'rell and Krang were rival in the past and somehow Ch'rell is roborn as Oroku Saki.

[Hermano Dyvas]

These reincarnation theories are getting wild.

I really don't think Oroku Saki is a reincarnation of Ch'rell. If anything I hope the reason Oroku Saki will survive in the present is because he is Ch'rell or Ch'rell took over his identity after the original one died. Not because Ch'rell Shredder is my favorite version but because it would make the most sense right now.

I'm not against Old Hob being a reincarnation of Oroku Saki only if a proper humanlike Shredder is involved like Ch'rell, yes I used the term humanlike loosely but I'm sure you get me. This would also create story potential of a reincarnated Oroku Saki fighting the Ch'rell Shredder for stealing his identity.

My ideal Shredder is still human though.

[Metropoliskid41]

That would definitely be a very interesting approach, Hob as Saki, with Ch'rell as the new Shredder and an enemy to Krang. That would be interesting indeed. I guess my major issue with it is that Saki was a master ninja warrior, and if he was Old Hob, now he has simply been reduced to a streetwise back alley brawler. All of his ninja and stealth technique are gone, and have been replaced with him being a thug. I think if Old Hob was Saki, he'd simply use his cat abilities and go stealth and hunt down the turtles and kill them himself.

[Samhain]

Who said Ch'rell was even in this series?

[Candy Kappa]

Your theory is a bit weak.

Do you say Oroku Saki who killed the Hamato family is an reincarnated Utrom?

[Metropoliskid41]

Who said Ch'rell was even in this series?

No one, he is just speculating, nothing wrong with him posting his theory is there?

[Samhain]

No one, he is just speculating, nothing wrong with him posting his theory is there?

The way the OP worded his post made it seem like Ch'rell was a given in this series.

[Powder]

At least my conspiracy had a lot to back it up. :trolleye: :trazz:

[Andrew NDB]

These reincarnation theories are getting wild.

I really don't think Oroku Saki is a reincarnation of Ch'rell. If anything I hope the reason Oroku Saki will survive in the present is because he is Ch'rell or Ch'rell took over his identity after the original one died. Not because Ch'rell Shredder is my favorite version but because it would make the most sense right now.

I'm not against Old Hob being a reincarnation of Oroku Saki only if a proper humanlike Shredder is involved like Ch'rell, yes I used the term humanlike loosely but I'm sure you get me. This would also create story potential of a reincarnated Oroku Saki fighting the Ch'rell Shredder for stealing his identity.

My ideal Shredder is still human though.

I don't have much/any interest in Alien Shredder. Oroku Saki really should represent the greatest down-to-earth threat the Turtles face to offset all the other more out-there threats they've got (you know, Triceratons, other mutants, Krang in this universe, etc.).

It would be kind of a copout for Splinter if it turned out that Ch'rell is Shredder in the present but it was actually the human Oroku Saki in Feudal Japan. His whole thing we found out in #5 was, "One day we will have a chance for revenge against Oroku Saki!" ... so if 400 years later he and his sons finally get resurrected, then would be going after a guy who turns out to not be Saki at all. Sh*tty. Better luck in the next life, I guess?

So yeah, most evidence would suggest "Oroku Saki" was Ch'rell, even back in Feudal Japan (probably why he was written as being particularly war-mongering in it). I'm really hoping I'm wrong.

[Hermano Dyvas]

That would definitely be a very interesting approach, Hob as Saki, with Ch'rell as the new Shredder and an enemy to Krang. That would be interesting indeed. I guess my major issue with it is that Saki was a master ninja warrior, and if he was Old Hob, now he has simply been reduced to a streetwise back alley brawler. All of his ninja and stealth technique are gone, and have been replaced with him being a thug. I think if Old Hob was Saki, he'd simply use his cat abilities and go stealth and hunt down the turtles and kill them himself.

Yeah Old Hob is a bit of a noob when it comes to fighting but if down the line he got injected with the same psychotropic drug that Splinter was all his memories of his old life would be triggered, just like his ninja skills. It's not too much of a stretch to me.

I don't have much/any interest in Alien Shredder. Oroku Saki really should represent the greatest down-to-earth threat the Turtles face to offset all the other more out-there threats they've got (you know, Triceratons, other mutants, Krang in this universe, etc.).

I can sympathise with this but if he is human that would mean he's 500 years old or so, I wouldn't say that's very down to earth either. :)

It would be kind of a copout for Splinter if it turned out that Ch'rell is Shredder in the present but it was actually the human Oroku Saki in Feudal Japan. His whole thing we found out in #5 was, "One day we will have a chance for revenge against Oroku Saki!" ... so if 400 years later he and his sons finally get resurrected, then would be going after a guy who turns out to not be Saki at all. Sh*tty. Better luck in the next life, I guess?

Not exactly, they'd still get a chance at revenge because Old Hob would be the true Oroku Saki, remember.

I actually think it would be a cool twist if they had been going after the wrong Shredder unwittingly only to find out later he's just an Alien imposter of the guy they really want.

[Hermano Dyvas]

Your theory is a bit weak.

Do you say Oroku Saki who killed the Hamato family is an reincarnated Utrom?

No I am saying Old Hob is a reincarnated Oroku Saki that killed the Hamato family. He just doesn't know it yet, but he's only a psychotropic drug away.

Ch'rell is just an imposter that steals the original Saki's identity after he died in Feudal Japan.

[Andrew NDB]

I can sympathise with this but if he is human that would mean he's 500 years old or so, I wouldn't say that's very down to earth either. :)

Or he discovered the secret to semi-Immortality. Or he's just a normal member of the Foot, possibly even a descendant of Saki (maybe Oroku Nagi!) who unlocked the psychotropic serum himself and awakened the Oroku Saki (reincarnation) within him. Or he found a way to travel through time to guide the Foot to greater glory in our century.

Any of those are preferable to Oroku Saki just being a meanie Utrom "at the wheel" of a human body.

Not exactly, they'd still get a chance at revenge because Old Hob would be the true Oroku Saki, remember.

If that's the case. And a mutant cat Oroku Saki is no better than Ch'rell Shredder, IMO.

I mean, this would mean that the Turtles literally would have no "normal" enemies whatsoever. Who would even be left? Baxter, until IDW turns him into a fly or a cyborg? And then?

[CyberCubed]

I mean, this would mean that the Turtles literally would have no "normal" enemies whatsoever. Who would even be left? Baxter, until IDW turns him into a fly or a cyborg? And then?

Foot Soldiers will still be human. Perhaps Hun if he shows up. Karai should appear eventually.

But I agree. To me the IDW series seems to be heading in the direction of both the Archie and Fred Wolf series, with a little bit of Mirage influence. Meaning the Turtles will wind up battling more supernatural type enemies rather than normal humans.

[Cowabunga Carl]

I'm very interested in seeing how they bring Oroku Saki into this series. I mean Powder's theory that they will have him be Hob is the most reasonable, but I hope they wont go that way as Hob looks to have a lot of development potential of his own. I'd like Saki's line to have survived tell present day and maybe they still run the Foot.

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, I like Old Hob, I think he's already developed a bit of a following since his premiere and so far he's the one completely original character IDW TMNT has brought to the table. Making him into a reincarnated Oroku Saki/Shredder seems like a huge reverse gear, however big of a twist it'd be.

[Cowabunga Carl]

But at this point it wouldn't be a twist, but the expected thing to do. It would be more of a twist if he wasn't. I remember Tom saying somewhere on here that what made us think we has seen the Shredder yet. Was he trying to throw us off or was he actually telling us we hasn't seen him yet.

[CyberCubed]

Technically we did see Shredder, its just Feudal Japan Shredder. Even with the name Oroku Saki and in armor.

The question is if that Shredder is still alive in the modern day, or if there's another Oroku Saki who is the descendent of that previous Shredder.

[Toby Barrett]

Who's to say that a modern Shredder would even be named Oroku Saki? It could just be a title passed among the Foot.

[Candy Kappa]

It could just be the current head of the Oroku family is just named after Saki

No I am saying Old Hob is a reincarnated Oroku Saki that killed the Hamato family. He just doesn't know it yet, but he's only a psychotropic drug away.

Ch'rell is just an imposter that steals the original Saki's identity after he died in Feudal Japan.

maybe I should have had a quote in my post. It wasn't to you but to the OP, where his theory was that Oroku Saki is an reincarnation of Ch'rell

[Hermano Dyvas]

Who's to say that a modern Shredder would even be named Oroku Saki? It could just be a title passed among the Foot.

Of course, this would be the only way Shredder would be at his most down to earth.

Semi-immortality or time traveling to the future from feudal Japan sounds less grounded in reality then a 500 year old utrom Shredder to me. Weird, I know.

In the end though, I want the IDW turtles to face the actual Oroku Saki so they can avenge their deaths with blood!

[Andrew NDB]

Who's to say that a modern Shredder would even be named Oroku Saki?

Splinter in #5. They're out for revenge against Oroku Saki, not Nobuo Uematsu or Takahari Matsumoto.

[Toby Barrett]

I remember Hamato Yoshi vowing revenge before he got ahead in life, however, Splinter has said nothing about revenge. "They walk a path of peace now".

[ToTheNines]

I remember Hamato Yoshi vowing revenge before he got ahead in life, however, Splinter has said nothing about revenge. "They walk a path of peace now".

Then what was the point of him being reincarnated if not to get his revenge?

[Andrew NDB]

Then what was the point of him being reincarnated if not to get his revenge?

Make him apologize, I guess.

[Matches Malone]

Make him apologize, I guess.

"Shredder, you REALLY hurt my feelings when you did that!"

[Andrew NDB]

I suppose it'd have to go a little something like this:

Splinter: "OK, Saki, hold it right there. My wife, my kids, ME, all those people you killed in that castle, probably thousands of others multiplied over the centuries if you're an alien brain thing -- you've got a lot to answer for! Tang Shen made me promise not to hurt you, which sucks because if I had killed you after you had her killed then our children wouldn't have been killed and I'd have enjoyed a few more golden years. I know I swore vengeance on you before you took my head, but my reincarnated sons and I are totally walking a path of peace now for some reason."

Oroku Saki: "So why are you here?"

Splinter: "I'm... not sure. I guess I just wanted to get that off my chest."

[Toby Barrett]

IF Saki has even been reincarnated.

[Donnie]

IF Saki has even been reincarnated.

Or if he's Ch'rell. What's the point of the Turtles and Splinter being reincarnated if Saki wasn't there for them to take vengeance upon? Yoshi's last words were swearing to destroy Saki when they meet again.

[MikeandRaph87]

With all of these wild theories going on it could we have utrom rivals Krang and Chr'ell with the TMNT in the middle. I don't know how I feel about that. I wnat The Shredder 100% human.

[Metropoliskid41]

I can see them maybe trying to appease all, and have Shredder (but not Saki) be Ch'rell and at war with Krang over control of Earth, while the other Utrom try to stop both of them, with the Turtles caught in the middle. Meanwhile Saki is recarnated maybe in the form of one of his bloodline descendants, he buys his time in the foot clan's ranks, only to seize control once Ch'rell has been defeated, or usurp his power when he is weak and we could have a War of the Shredders of such. That way Utrom Shredder fans get a shout out as well as all of us who prefer human Shredder. And that way the Turtles can still get their revenge on Saki.

[MikeandRaph87]

I can see them maybe trying to appease all, and have Shredder (but not Saki) be Ch'rell and at war with Krang over control of Earth, while the other Utrom try to stop both of them, with the Turtles caught in the middle. Meanwhile Saki is recarnated maybe in the form of one of his bloodline descendants, he buys his time in the foot clan's ranks, only to seize control once Ch'rell has been defeated, or usurp his power when he is weak and we could have a War of the Shredders of such. That way Utrom Shredder fans get a shout out as well as all of us who prefer human Shredder. And that way the Turtles can still get their revenge on Saki.

I will be satisfied with that one one condition. Instead of Saki reincarnated why not the current Oruku Saki. His family and all but be Oroku Saki 15th or something and avioding the whole reincarnation bit I'm not crazy over.

[Metropoliskid41]

That could work as well, kind of the Sins of the Father are the Sins of the Son. And thus could end Saki's bloodline as well.

[Andrew NDB]

I can see them maybe trying to appease all, and have Shredder (but not Saki) be Ch'rell and at war with Krang over control of Earth

How diabolical... and Saturday morning cartoonish.

[TobTurn]

Hehehehe no if you guys don't want Ch'rell to be the One True Shredder let him at least be the One True Ch'rell of the multiverse :p

Interesting theories though.

[Plasticplayhouse]

How diabolical... and Saturday morning cartoonish.

agreed. this outcome would not be a good one imo. then again...we have no idea what general krang will look like (unless i missed something). who knows, they may decide to make krang human. if that's the case the krang vs shredder or krang with shredder idea may not be so bad. but the ch'rell character is one i though shouldve never came about in the first place.

[Metropoliskid41]

How diabolical... and Saturday morning cartoonish.

Well we've already seen that Krang has some super intelligent "enemies." Stockman said that "General Krang when to great lengths to secure the mutagen from his enemies." (paraphrased) and then was attacked by ninja bandits.

So to me that means he has a quarrel with some other Utrom, or the smartest group of people on the planet. And then this group, or another third party, has a group of Ninjas, that resemble the foot clan, break in and attempt to steal the research. To me why not just destroy the lab and mutagen if thats all they have and you have more, so that makes me think it is a third party trying to get their hands on it. Old Hob is working for Stockman, who works for Krang. In the Raph issue it didn't appear that Alopex, Bebop, and Rocksteady had ties to Hob or Stockman. That makes me think they are separate and the ones behind the vandalizing of Stockman's lab. My theory may be cartoony, whatever. The series is based on mutagen touching pet turtles and turning them into walking talking hosts for reincarnated japanese ninjas that were killed 500 some years ago. The whole premise is a little cartoony.

Based on what we've seen what conclusions would you draw that seem less "Saturday Morning Cartoonish?"


EDIT: And just to be clear I don't think cartoony or Saturday Morning Cartoonish is bad, I think the premise for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is awesome in pretty much every incarnation we've seen (Not so much in movie #3 and New Mutation) but other than that I have nothing but great things to say about Walking talking anthropomorphic turtles :tgrin: I love being a turtle [fan]!!

[Andrew NDB]

Well we've already seen that Krang has some super intelligent "enemies." Stockman said that "General Krang when to great lengths to secure the mutagen from his enemies." (paraphrased) and then was attacked by ninja bandits.

So to me that means he has a quarrel with some other Utrom, or the smartest group of people on the planet. And then this group, or another third party, has a group of Ninjas, that resemble the foot clan, break in and attempt to steal the research. To me why not just destroy the lab and mutagen if thats all they have and you have more, so that makes me think it is a third party trying to get their hands on it. Old Hob is working for Stockman, who works for Krang. In the Raph issue it didn't appear that Alopex, Bebop, and Rocksteady had ties to Hob or Stockman. That makes me think they are separate and the ones behind the vandalizing of Stockman's lab. My theory may be cartoony, whatever. The series is based on mutagen touching pet turtles and turning them into walking talking hosts for reincarnated japanese ninjas that were killed 500 some years ago. The whole premise is a little cartoony.

Yeah, that. I'm not debating whether or not your theory is sound or how likely it'll be true.

EDIT: And just to be clear I don't think cartoony or Saturday Morning Cartoonish is bad, I think the premise for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is awesome in pretty much every incarnation we've seen (Not so much in movie #3 and New Mutation) but other than that I have nothing but great things to say about Walking talking anthropomorphic turtles :tgrin:

Indeed (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crisler%27s+law).

[Metropoliskid41]

Ha love how thats in Urban dictionary :tlol: :tlol: :tlol:

And like I said nothing but love for the Turtles and their origin!

[Donnie]

Tom's silence about Shredder is a little disheartening!

[Metropoliskid41]

Yeah I don't want to wait 6-12 months to learn more about ol Shred Head. Hopefully we'll get some answers on who exactly he is over the next 3-4 issues & Leo micro series

[Matches Malone]

Well we've already seen that Krang has some super intelligent "enemies." Stockman said that "General Krang when to great lengths to secure the mutagen from his enemies." (paraphrased) and then was attacked by ninja bandits.

So to me that means he has a quarrel with some other Utrom, or the smartest group of people on the planet. And then this group, or another third party, has a group of Ninjas, that resemble the foot clan, break in and attempt to steal the research. To me why not just destroy the lab and mutagen if thats all they have and you have more, so that makes me think it is a third party trying to get their hands on it. Old Hob is working for Stockman, who works for Krang. In the Raph issue it didn't appear that Alopex, Bebop, and Rocksteady had ties to Hob or Stockman. That makes me think they are separate and the ones behind the vandalizing of Stockman's lab. My theory may be cartoony, whatever. The series is based on mutagen touching pet turtles and turning them into walking talking hosts for reincarnated japanese ninjas that were killed 500 some years ago. The whole premise is a little cartoony.

Based on what we've seen what conclusions would you draw that seem less "Saturday Morning Cartoonish?"


EDIT: And just to be clear I don't think cartoony or Saturday Morning Cartoonish is bad, I think the premise for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is awesome in pretty much every incarnation we've seen (Not so much in movie #3 and New Mutation) but other than that I have nothing but great things to say about Walking talking anthropomorphic turtles :tgrin: I love being a turtle [fan]!!

One thing I do know... that was indeed the Foot breaking into Stockgen and not some other ninja clan. This was confirmed (perhaps unintentionally) when Eastman released his layouts for #2 and in the notes states that the Foot ninjas break in. They're also drawn Mirage-style in the layouts. Old habits die hard, I guess.

[MikeandRaph87]

Yeah I don't want to wait 6-12 months to learn more about ol Shred Head. Hopefully we'll get some answers on who exactly he is over the next 3-4 issues & Leo micro series

The storyline is #6-#8 focusing on Krang,Baxter, and eventually the Mousers so I would doubt Shredder woul get any panel time in the main series. Perhaps he will get development in the indidual micros? If not we are going to have to wait until at least mid April. cry:

[Metropoliskid41]

Yeah but I'd still be fine with them at least getting laid out and having their cards down for all to see, right now they are just kind of their as characters but we haven't seem them defined or know exactly what their motivations are and how that affects the Turtles in the grand scheme of things. While I would prefer to know more about Saki and Shredder sooner than later, at least defining Krang will satisfy my hunger for some. This book is awesome, and part of it is the mystery, but I really want some of my questions answered and for some of the pieces of the puzzle to come together :trazz:

[MikeandRaph87]

Yeah but I'd still be fine with them at least getting laid out and having their cards down for all to see, right now they are just kind of their as characters but we haven't seem them defined or know exactly what their motivations are and how that affects the Turtles in the grand scheme of things. While I would prefer to know more about Saki and Shredder sooner than later, at least defining Krang will satisfy my hunger for some. This book is awesome, and part of it is the mystery, but I really want some of my questions answered and for some of the pieces of the puzzle to come together :trazz:

I admit the answers to some of these questions will effect my overall enjoyment of it. At this point I haven't made an opinion yet. I want to see where it all looks to be going before saying its "just okay" or "its awesome!". I remember learning on ninjaturtles.com that Shredder would finally face the TMNT in the tenth episode back in 2003 so right after the first episode debuted I counted down the episodes until Shredder faced them. I can wait longer than ten weeks if its even better.

[Keldor1578]

I have another theory, What if Ch'rell instead of using an exoskeleton suit like the 4Kids cartoon, Ch'rell is using Oroku Saki's body as a host

[oldmanwinters]

Eh, the whole Ch'rell thing was a really brilliant twist in the 4Kids series that allowed them to get away with beheading the Shredder in the Return to New York saga...

But I've had enough of the Shredder as Utrom concept. I'd just as soon it be forever relegated to that particular 4Kids continuity.

[Jester]

Eh, the whole Ch'rell thing was a really brilliant twist in the 4Kids series that allowed them to get away with beheading the Shredder in the Return to New York sage...

But I've had enough of the Shredder as Utrom concept. I'd just as soon it be forever relegated to that particular 4Kids continuity.
Quoted because, well I really couldn't have said it better.

[ToTheNines]

Quoted because, well I really couldn't have said it better.

Agreed here, too.

These poll numbers indicate that most people will also. http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=34325

[Uki]

I have another theory, What if Ch'rell instead of using an exoskeleton suit like the 4Kids cartoon, Ch'rell is using Oroku Saki's body as a host

How funny-I was just thinking something similar when I came upon your post!

What if Oroku Saki was possessed by the villainous Utrom Ch'Rell hundreds of years ago-allowing Saki to live as they plot together. Ch'Rell's enemies have finally caught up to him in General Krang and his allies-Stockman, Old Hob, etc.
The turtles are, as others suggested, reincarnated into the middle of an ages old war!

Ultimately, Ch'Rell could be betrayed by Saki, who has used his technology to gain something like immortality, and we get Shredder and Krang united, as in the old days!

Just thinkin...

[Oculus Orbus]

Eh, the whole Ch'rell thing was a really brilliant twist in the 4Kids series that allowed them to get away with beheading the Shredder in the Return to New York saga...

But I've had enough of the Shredder as Utrom concept. I'd just as soon it be forever relegated to that particular 4Kids continuity.

You said it, completely agree with that.