Should I go back and re-watch the original series or... [Archive]

Konchadunga

01-23-2012, 06:29 PM

[I'm probably just looking for some "deep" significance in any TMNT incarnation, it is what it is though]

I think the prevailing appeal to all incarnations is their lust for existence; the desire to fill out their respective universes and the potential to take the narrative anywhere and everywhere. Watch long enough, and you'll encounter film noir detective stories, aliens and alien planets, time travel, mad science, sorcery, and a load of other literary tropes incorporated into the narrative. The shows each have those things, so anyone watching frequently will eventually come across an episode they like.

That said, the overall tone is definitely different. To give you a rough idea of the degree of difference, the Turtles are roughly the same except for Raphael, who is closer to his violent comic counterpart, probably since there's less censorship now, and Splinter is almost identical to the OT version, but everyone else is pretty different. April isn't a newswoman, Casey is still angry and violent but that's not his only trait, and Shredder is much more dangerous.

In general, the original show is a comedy, while the new show is an adventure series. The big advantage of the old toon is you can drop in at any time and watch it and enjoy it, because it's slang and recurring pizza obsession make it more instantly memorable, and in the case of some awful episodes you can skip them and pretend they never happened. The 2003 show has (for the most part) a lot more depth. It's really one long story, so you get out of it what you put into it. That makes it potentially better, but to appreciate it you need to watch it on a binge; like on YouTube or DVD, or you're going to find the plot confusing--and once in a while, you'll probably have to sit through an episode you hate to understand it.

Powder

01-23-2012, 06:35 PM

You should do want you want to do instead of letting others choose for ya. ;)

TonySiegel

01-23-2012, 06:39 PM

You should do want you want to do instead of letting others choose for ya. ;)

Just needed a general consensus of opinions before investing the time into either series. Was planning on re-watching both series regardless... got to find something to do in-between the comic release dates :tlol:

[what does OT mean? original toon?]

Candy Kappa

01-23-2012, 06:56 PM

Usually stands for Old Toon

Whats OG?

gobo

01-23-2012, 06:58 PM

Ninja Turtles?? O_o That's for babies, dude.

TonySiegel

01-23-2012, 07:04 PM

Turtles Forever was the ultimate balance of cheese pizza with cotton candy toppings.

[OG = OriGinal or OG = Original Gangster]

Chipzard

01-23-2012, 07:07 PM

Well based on my experience, watching cartoons tend to give me peer pressure, cuz friends and even sibilings, will tease ya and critize ya from watching cartoons. What I do is, I just find another form of the same interests, like comic books. Like Pokemon Magna Comic Books for example, Ninja Turtle Comic Books also :D Just to be on the safe side, so ya won't get pressured by other people, cuz it happened to me before ya know, so I had to stop cartoons, and just collect other stuf that's related, that isnt cartoon ya know :tgrin:

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-23-2012, 07:08 PM

Konchadunga

01-23-2012, 07:08 PM

[what does OT mean? original toon?]

Maybe "Old Toon" as well, but that isn't so accurate anymore now that the 2003 cartoon is old, too.

Another thing about the 2003 show--resist the urge to stop watching just because some of your old favorite characters don't appear. It seems this maybe the biggest complaint about the 2003 show, and it's true that it can feel empty without them at first. If you just endure, though, it starts to attain it's own supporting cast that's equally appealing. Perhaps my favorite new character is Renet, whom I'd basically describe as having Irma's personality along with Time Travel powers--as fun as it sounds!

TonySiegel

01-23-2012, 07:28 PM

Spitfire

01-23-2012, 07:44 PM

They're both worth watching though I will say 2K3 has more going for it overall then the OT. It has continuity for one which most of the OT lacks. It has more good episodes. Though the OT has more episodes it's only 37 more and even then it still has less good ones.

Not taking itself seriously doesn't really mean it works any better then 2K3. Many episodes have ridiculous plots that over use the main villains. For a series with a colorful toyline they really dropped the ball when it came to using it. Every time they needed a villain they opted to create some generic mad scientist or equally uninteresting character instead of using the truckload of baddies they already had between the comics and the toys.

I guess if I had to break it down most of the OT is forgettable. A lot of the middle episodes fail to stick out and without an on going story it's easy to forget about many of them. 2K3 has the advantage there. While most of the comic adaptations fall short due to the content being paired down for a kids series it's still a good watch overall. The OT is too but it relies much more on nostalgia then 2K3 does.

A lot of people will complain that 2K3 isn't as funny as the OT but honestly the OT rarely made me laugh, even as a kid. The most chuckles it gets out of me now are from the hilarious use of words like bodacious. 2K3 isn't a laugh riot either but I never came to the series for that.

Comparing the two overall is a bit hard because they're completely different series and I notice a lot of fans, even the ones who watch both, usually like one much more then the other. I'm in the middle with it. I don't watch either all the time. For me the OT is more of a background noise sort of show as 2K3 I will actually sit down and watch.

Candy Kappa

01-23-2012, 07:51 PM

The 2 OAVs are a fun watch too

gobo

01-23-2012, 07:56 PM

We Wish You A Turtle Christmas is for REAL men. Badge of honor, that one...

Donnie

01-23-2012, 08:06 PM

I think the 2k3 is far superior to the OT, because of the overall darker tone, continuity, everything everyone else said. Not that the OT is bad, I like it, but I only like it because it makes me laugh and reminds me of my youth.

Samhain

01-23-2012, 08:19 PM

It really just depends on what you prefer. While the 80s show is classic, it's also classic cheese and I can't really ''sit down'' and watch it.

If you are a fan of the comic books I say go 2k3. Better stories, continuity, and the art style and animation is great. Also, I love the fight scenes. It's up to you.

Candy Kappa

01-23-2012, 08:24 PM

Next Mutation, Next Mutation... Then We Wish You A Turtle Christmas

Redeemer

01-23-2012, 08:26 PM

Truthfully I actually enjoyed the 2K3 series more than the OT. I jst liked it better. I think I like it more jst bc it has a central plot

Herald7

01-23-2012, 08:29 PM

...give the 4kids version a second chance? I went back and tried to re-watch the OG series on dvd and it was cheesetastic (nostalgia was still there). Does the 2k3 to 2009 series do the turtles justice? I've only seen a couple of those episodes and turtles forever was awesome!

When I rewatch the OT I find it's even better than I remember (and I loved it at the time). There's so many layers there that I wasn't aware of as a child. Humor is much more difficult to write and act for than either action or drama.

I did try watching the 2k3 version when it came out. I don't know, I just wasn't motivated to make it a habit. It just felt like every other action cartoon series. That said, I'd be willing to give it a chance again.

The 87 TMNT series is so much more fun, upbeat, and unlike the source material and 2003 cartoon, doesnt take it's ridiculous premise too serious

Exactly. There is a point where you can take this premise way too seriously and I think the 2k3 cartoon definitely crossed that point, lol. And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way for the franchise. Some brooding every once and awhile is fine. But constantly being brooding and dark does not equal being deep!

The 1st turtles movie was the perfect balance of humor and dark. Period.

Turtles Forever, well...great idea but I can't get passed how they so incorrectly portrayed the OT turtles. And consequently the 2k3 turtles ended up looking like scolding parents. Um, fun? The writing was just too broad.

ABrown

01-23-2012, 09:21 PM

What I don't agree with is when people say that the original cartoon is just as good as the 2003 version. I don't think that the more recent cartoon was a better cartoon because it was darker and not as cheesy. I think that it's better than the original because I consider it to have been a superior product. I think that the newer cartoon had better animation, music, and better stories. Do I happen to prefer that it was also darker and had a more serious tone than the original cartoon? Yes. But I consider myself able to be objective and look past that when determining which was the better cartoon.

CyberCubed

01-23-2012, 09:46 PM

The 4kids series has better consistent writing but he original cartoon is just plain fun. I have a blast with it and you can introduce it to your kids.

Herald7

01-23-2012, 10:21 PM

I think that the newer cartoon had better animation, music, and better stories.

The 4kids series has better consistent writing but he original cartoon is just plain fun. I have a blast with it and you can introduce it to your kids.

Well for me better animation or music doesn't equal better cartoon necessarily. It comes down to the writing. And while the 2k3 series had a consistent plot that also doesn't automatically mean superior product. Many of the most successful and well written TV shows in history lacked consistent plots.

The OT is a lot of fun. But that doesn't mean it can't be taken seriously. Comedy is not all about being bright and happy. A lot of the humor in the OT came from the characters having a very snarky and cynical attitude towards society which we can all identify with and speaks a lot more volumes than a cartoon going out of its way to be "dark."

CyberCubed

01-23-2012, 10:41 PM

Well for me better animation or music doesn't equal better cartoon necessarily. It comes down to the writing. And while the 2k3 series had a consistent plot that also doesn't automatically mean superior product. Many of the most successful and well written TV shows in history lacked consistent plots.

The OT is a lot of fun. But that doesn't mean it can't be taken seriously. Comedy is not all about being bright and happy. A lot of the humor in the OT came from the characters having a very snarky and cynical attitude towards society which we can all identify with and speaks a lot more volumes than a cartoon going out of its way to be "dark."

Oh I agree. A lot of these people haven't actually sat down and watched the original cartoon in years, so they don't truly remember what the show is actually like.

However the 4kids series was indeed very good. And not just for TMNT, it was one of the better made cartoons in the 2000's in general.

Herald7

01-23-2012, 10:53 PM

Oh I agree. A lot of these people haven't actually sat down and watched the original cartoon in years, so they don't truly remember what the show is actually like.

Exactly. And even when they do see it, it's easy to dismiss it as childish at first glance, without noticing that there's so much more to it. :)

However the 4kids series was indeed very good. And not just for TMNT, it was one of the better made cartoons in the 2000's in general.

Yeah I mean I never felt like it was bad; I just didn't fall in love with it the way I have with other shows. But like I said I'd be willing to give it another chance. More ninja turtles is always a good thing...unless it's Ninja Turtles 3, lol. :lol:

CyberCubed

01-23-2012, 10:55 PM

The other thing is the 4kids series mostly has to be watched in order to really appreciate it, since its so continuity heavy.

The original toon was designed where you can jump in at any time, watch any random episode, and you won't be lost. Sure, there's the introduction episodes for all the major characters and recurring characters, as well as the location of the Technodrome every season, but other than that you can jump in at any time.

Although after the Season 10 DVD comes out, I plan on doing a complete rewatch in chronological order for the old series.

Avatar Yuffie

01-23-2012, 10:56 PM

Watch both.

There are times 2K3 made me cringe (Hun's "we have a plan to replace the US President and the UK Prime Minister with mechanical bodies" for example), I feel April's character completely unused when Casey became the Turtles' Go To human and the Shredder is just... blah. But it does have very solid arcs. Worth looking in to.

The fun thing about the OT is that they took all the ridiculousness of the plot and run with it. A crazy AI takes over the Channel 6 building, Don tells them not to destroy other people's property and Raph tells him to shut it? Fun times.

I'm kinda sad for a bit with the OT Turtles' characterization in Turtles Forever. OT!Leo would have looked up at the 2K3 guys, and the others would be more aware that 2K3 Raph treats them like a joke and will comment on it. Oh well...

Herald7

01-23-2012, 11:05 PM

The other thing is the 4kids series mostly has to be watched in order to really appreciate it, since its so continuity heavy.

Good point, thanks. :)

Although after the Season 10 DVD comes out, I plan on doing a complete rewatch in chronological order for the old series.

That sounds like fun actually, lol.

The fun thing about the OT is that they took all the ridiculousness of the plot and run with it. A crazy AI takes over the Channel 6 building, Don tells them not to destroy other people's property and Raph tells him to shut it? Fun times.

Lol, very true, I love how they were basically satirizing the absurdity of your standard action plot line.

Watch both.

Well put. Watch both. :)

CyberCubed

01-23-2012, 11:06 PM

Herald7

01-23-2012, 11:27 PM

I would have liked to see Baxter show up at least twice a season.

Yeah OT Baxter was hilarious in how pathetic he was, lol.

rufus

01-23-2012, 11:31 PM

My only gripes with the OT were the underused characters. Casey Jones should have appeared a lot more, Leatherhead deserved more episodes, I would have liked to see Baxter show up at least twice a season.

If only they did the character appearances more properly.

Casey Jones should really have had more episodes. Shame stupid parent groups ruined his chances of appearing with thier uproar over him.

Foot Soldier Clang

01-23-2012, 11:33 PM

The OT was perfect. Odds are I'll only watch the 2k3 series when my younger cousin comes by and forces me to.

Herald7

01-23-2012, 11:38 PM

The OT was perfect.

Indeed. :)

Odds are I'll only watch the 2k3 series when my younger cousin comes by and forces me to.

Hehe, that reminds me of when I watched the new He-Man with my younger cousin and he was asking me questions about the original cartoon, lol.

ZariusTwo

01-24-2012, 05:47 AM

I think the 2k3 is far superior to the OT, because of the overall darker tone, continuity

The OT had continuity

And "darker tone" doesnt always mean "good". Frankly, I think the 2003 series taking itself seriously is what makes it inferior. The old 'toon knew how ridiculous the premise was and had fun with it.

Turtles Forever, well...great idea but I can't get passed how they so incorrectly portrayed the OT turtles. And consequently the 2k3 turtles ended up looking like scolding parents. Um, fun? The writing was just too broad.

Erm...they DIDNT portray the 80s Turtles incorrectly. I agree with you however that the writing did not help the 2003 Turtles to be accepted by fans loyal to the old show, and, far worse, they proved to be really incompetant in a film that was supposed to be their finale.

I think I like it more jst bc it has a central plot

The plot was about fifty different things per week. Honestly, the only time the plot was centralized was in the first and fifth seasons. Gargoyles and The 90s Spider-Man series has more focus than the 2003 series.

Powder

01-24-2012, 05:49 AM

The OT had continuity

And "darker tone" doesnt always mean "good". Frankly, I think the 2003 series taking itself seriously is what makes it inferior. The old 'toon knew how ridiculous the premise of mutant Turtles actually is and had fun with it.

My problem with the show is in a similar vein. They lightened up the Mirage stores that they adapted, but didn't lighten the tone.
That's the fault with the "taking itself too seriously" thing. If you're gonna lighten the stories up, do the same to the mood. Otherwise it feels pretentious. I love 2k3 though, that's just my big complaint.

ZariusTwo

01-24-2012, 06:08 AM

ABrown

01-24-2012, 04:04 PM

The OT is a lot of fun. But that doesn't mean it can't be taken seriously. Comedy is not all about being bright and happy. A lot of the humor in the OT came from the characters having a very snarky and cynical attitude towards society which we can all identify with and speaks a lot more volumes than a cartoon going out of its way to be "dark."

I've just never found the original cartoon to be funny, not in the least. Cheesy? Absolutely, but to me that doesn't mean the same thing as funny. Honestly, between the two cartoons, I would say that the 2003 one was the funnier one. And it was the darker of the two shows.

Herald7

01-24-2012, 04:23 PM

I've just never found the original cartoon to be funny, not in the least. Cheesy? Absolutely, but to me that doesn't mean the same thing as funny. Honestly, between the two cartoons, I would say that the 2003 one was the funnier one. And it was the darker of the two shows.

::shrugs:: Different strokes I guess. I didn't dislike 2k3 but I never found it particularly funny. It was far too busy desperately trying to be taken seriously and I just didn't buy it. The OT on the other hand felt skillfully written as far as humor and as far as formulaic writing, which is not a bad thing. Again, many successful shows in history went the formulaic route.

Herald7

01-24-2012, 04:25 PM

Erm...they DIDNT portray the 80s Turtles incorrectly.

They painted the OT turtles with a broad, lazy stroke of "they're all goofy." The OT was much more nuanced than that. It never would have been popular in the first place if it was anything like what Turtles Forever portrayed. Turtles Forever was shallow writing that you typically find when they try to remake classic movies. What one fan once described to me as the Cliff Notes version and that is not a compliment, lol. ;)

Herald7

01-24-2012, 04:31 PM

I definatly liked the 4Kids show too, but yeah, trying to make it a kids show while trying to be adult about it is a choice feat that few shows can manage. The 90s were FULL of shows that did that, and only a handful of them were succesful at it.

I think everyone was chasing the success of Batman: The Animated Series and I agree, very few succeeded.

ZariusTwo

01-24-2012, 04:39 PM

Honestly, between the two cartoons, I would say that the 2003 one was the funnier one

Your sense of humour is f*cking awful

I think everyone was chasing the success of Batman: The Animated Series and I agree, very few succeeded.

Even then, Batman: The Animated Series could be cheesy when it wanted to be. Look at episodes like "Christmas with The Joker" for one. All the best 90s shows could make a face and drop their pants once in a while. The ones that couldnt just vanished after a season or so.

Of course, there were several cartoons that tried to duplicate TMNT's quirky humour and failed as well

Herald7

01-24-2012, 04:46 PM

Of course, there were several cartoons that tried to duplicate TMNT's quirky humour and failed as well

Oh very true, I remember those and even as a kid I thought, "Um, are they trying to be like the ninja turtles?" Lol. Emphasize trying. ;)

Avatar Yuffie

01-24-2012, 08:47 PM

They painted the OT turtles with a broad, lazy stroke of "they're all goofy." The OT was much more nuanced than that. It never would have been popular in the first place if it was anything like what Turtles Forever portrayed. Turtles Forever was shallow writing that you typically find when they try to remake classic movies. What one fan once described to me as the Cliff Notes version and that is not a compliment, lol. ;)

Agreed. Leo is so OOC am very VERY happy Cam Clarke never voiced him.

gobo

01-24-2012, 08:57 PM

They painted the OT turtles with a broad, lazy stroke of "they're all goofy."
They weren't all goofy. I know for a fact that one was Mickey and another was Donald.

Herald7

01-24-2012, 09:11 PM

They weren't all goofy. I know for a fact that one was Mickey and another was Donald.

......."Too derivative." ;) :lol:

twopinacoladas

01-24-2012, 10:03 PM

I'd watch both if your interested you will likely enjoy the 2k3 series. I found that it was hard to watch through the original toon the first 4 or so seasons were good nostalgia but once I get to far in it seems to repetitive and the episodes all seem to similar but good to watch for nostalgia in any case.

Herald7

01-24-2012, 10:13 PM

A lot of it just depends on what you're looking for. One show has a consistent storyline and one show is formulaic and both are valid formats, they're just different.

Mr._Mutant_Man

01-24-2012, 11:24 PM

I've never gotten too far into the newer cartoon. Since there are a lot of similarities to the comics, sometimes I feel it's kind of redundant when watching the major story lines. I haven't seen much past the part where Leonardo is recovering after they flee New York, though.

Xav

01-25-2012, 07:31 PM

The OT had continuity
Yeah but only for like half of the seasons nowhere near the extant the 4Kids show did.
Your sense of humour is f*cking awful Oh come on the 4Kids show had it's moments.

gobo

01-25-2012, 08:39 PM

"Nice hats..."

Herald7

01-25-2012, 10:28 PM

Yeah but only for like half of the seasons nowhere near the extant the 4Kids show did.

I don't see the OT as particularly lacking in continuity. It's just that they tended to focus on individual adventures rather than one large one. It's not like the overall scenario changed every week or something. And I actually think the "individual adventures" format is a bit closer to real life. Things happen to us, and then we move on to the next thing, life goes on.

Redeemer

01-25-2012, 11:05 PM

I don't see the OT as particularly lacking in continuity. It's just that they tended to focus on individual adventures rather than one large one. It's not like the overall scenario changed every week or something. And I actually think the "individual adventures" format is a bit closer to real life. Things happen to us, and then we move on to the next thing, life goes on.

Interesting take :lol:
But I like a show with continuity but I also like a break from the show. I think the 2k3 show had a nice balance unlike the OT imo

Herald7

01-25-2012, 11:08 PM

Interesting take :lol:
But I like a show with continuity but I also like a break from the show. I think the 2k3 show had a nice balance unlike the OT imo

I thought so. ;)
I agree it has a balance, yes, I just don't think that in itself makes it the better show.

Leo656

01-26-2012, 05:56 AM

The OT had continuity, it just stopped being episodic continuity very early on. After the first two seasons up until the very end, it wasn't necessary to watch episodes in a specific order to follow the show anymore. But every now and then Usagi or Lotus would show up and they'd reference an earlier episode before moving the plot along. It was a looser continuity but it was there. 2K3 is much more tight as far as order of events from episode to episode, season to season. It could be said there was too much going on at once sometimes, though.

I'unno, I always point out how goofy the concept of TMNT is and how fans shouldn't take some things too seriously, but at the same time I don't agree the license is better off when it's flat-out goofy, or when the silliness outweighs everything else. I still love the old show but I find much of its humor very dated and juvenile. Some of the dialog, especially, you can just tell they were like "We have no idea what they should say here so let's have a forced pun or a pizza joke".

I think it might be more personal to me, though. I have too much of a writer's mentality when I watch comedic stuff in general; I think too much, particularly speaking I tune out when there's a supposedly life-or-death scenario going on and everyone's cracking jokes, I'm conditioned to think that no matter how silly the audience finds the scenario or the premise, the characters involved need to play it somewhat straight or the drama falls out completely. I liked how the TMNT would often break the fourth wall, for example, but going back and seeing how much they did it makes it less clever and almost annoying after a while.

I can see where some would conversely find the 2k3 show overly-eager to be taken seriously, but I'm not sure that's exactly it. There was definitely a bit of "this isn't the old show" forced in to get the point across, but there was also a lot of totally random humor as well. The humor isn't as broad as the old show but I definitely laugh a lot just the same.

I think the "over-serious" label is something that got projected onto it over the years because the tone is SO different from the original, but in truth both shows were conceived and pushed towards two different directions from the beginning. The original was a kids' comedy/adventure show with light action elements, and the newer show was a kids' action/adventure series with a sense of humor. Each show's tone was exactly appropriate for what it was designed to be. Which tone you prefer is simply a matter of personal choice.

For me, the action in 2k3 puts it over. As others have said, it was one of the best action cartoons of the last 10+ years. I like my characters to kick ass, so between Justice League, TMNT and He-Man I had a lot to be happy about back in 2k3. :)

Herald7

01-26-2012, 11:19 AM

I still love the old show but I find much of its humor very dated and juvenile. Some of the dialog, especially, you can just tell they were like "We have no idea what they should say here so let's have a forced pun or a pizza joke".

I can think of many '80s/'90s cartoons shows that fit that label, but I never feel like OT is one of them. In fact very few jokes feel dated at all. Or for that matter, specific to the '80s. They did jokes you would have heard years before and would still hear today. And puns are deceptively simple but are in fact quite challenging to create.

And if we want to talk about juvenile, that's the vibe I get when watching the 2k3. It's like a kiddie show pretending it's grown up (again, chasing Batman: The Animated Series' success). Whereas the OT felt like it was clearly written by grown ups challenging kids to understand adult humor and references.

I'm conditioned to think that no matter how silly the audience finds the scenario or the premise, the characters involved need to play it somewhat straight or the drama falls out completely.

The OT was satirizing your typical action cartoon, that what I think fans don't realize. It's not that they're not playing it straight, it's that they're picking apart the quirks of your standard action plot, which frankly often does take itself too seriously.

ZariusTwo

01-26-2012, 02:59 PM

I find the humour in 2003 to be not just dated...but also stuff that real life adolescents just wouldnt say if their life depended on them.

Herald7

01-26-2012, 03:20 PM

I find the humour in 2003 to be not just dated...but also stuff that real life adolescents just wouldnt say if their life depended on them.

Exactly, 2k3 sometimes felt like those caricatures of the All American teenager which can often get really painful to watch on any show, lol.

Now are the OT turtles always believable as teenagers? No, lol. They do tend to sound more like snarky 20 or 30 year olds, lol. But they do have a clear rebellious, free spirited nature about them very much associated with youth.

ABrown

01-26-2012, 03:31 PM

For me, the action in 2k3 puts it over. As others have said, it was one of the best action cartoons of the last 10+ years. I like my characters to kick ass, so between Justice League, TMNT and He-Man I had a lot to be happy about back in 2k3. :)

Completely agree. Talk about a golden age for action cartoons. And then you throw in Teen Titans and the MTV Spiderman. Lots of great cartoons.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-26-2012, 03:36 PM

After the first two seasons up until the very end, it wasn't necessary to watch episodes in a specific order to follow the show anymore.

Except if you wanted to know how the Technodrome ended up at various places.

ZariusTwo

01-26-2012, 04:14 PM

Completely agree. Talk about a golden age for action cartoons. And then you throw in Teen Titans and the MTV Spiderman. Lots of great cartoons.

The MTV Spider-Man was awful

Herald7

01-26-2012, 04:23 PM

The MTV Spider-Man was awful

Yeah I have to say for me the golden age of action cartoons was a few years earlier than 2003.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-26-2012, 05:14 PM

While talking about all pizza jojes, I think it's time to talk some more serious episodes of the 1987 cartoon: I would go for:

*Raphael VS the Volcano (life-death)
*Shredderville (feeling unnessesary, totalitarian government)
*Splinter No More (here's a lot of political issues, not politics like parties, more how they fear different, how humans threat each other)

I don't think "Poor Little Rich Turtle" should be here. Buffy Shelhammer was stripped on her childhood because of the company and was now a teen, the story was never told with the same serious tone (unhappy rich kids is a popular culture stock character).

How about "Elementary, My Dear Turtle"? When Professor Moriaty rules his timeline, he's adored by a lot of people when the automobile is on the streets. Reminds of some others governments?

Herald7

01-26-2012, 05:24 PM

*Shredderville (feeling unnessesary, totalitarian government)

It was pretty creepy how April and Irma end up as harem girls, but certainly in many dictatorships it's the women who suffer the most.

And I loved how even Shredder doesn't enjoy being the ruler. It makes total sense for his character. He just wanted power, which he felt meant getting other people to do the paper work for him, lol.

ABrown

01-26-2012, 05:27 PM

The MTV Spider-Man was awful

See I'm not even a Spiderman fan, but I really liked that cartoon. It was from Mainframe, creators of the great Beast Wars/Beast Machines cartoon.

Yeah I have to say for me the golden age of action cartoons was a few years earlier than 2003.

I just think that it's impressive that the 2003 cartoon made it through seven seasons with all of the competition that it had. The original cartoon was pretty much the only game in town. When the show started, pretty much all of the 80's toy commercial cartoons were either done, or about to be done. And the DC Animated Universe shows didn't start up until about 1992. So there was a good five years or so where the original TMNT cartoon had virtually no competition. What action cartoon did the original toon have to compete with? The DIC GI Joe series?

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-26-2012, 05:36 PM

It was pretty creepy how April and Irma end up as harem girls, but certainly in many dictatorships it's the women who suffer the most.

And I loved how even Shredder doesn't enjoy being the ruler. It makes total sense for his character. He just wanted power, which he felt meant getting other people to do the paper work for him, lol.

I also like how Shredder blames problems on mutants, to avoid people noticing that Shredder himself is the real bad-ass in town. After all, so many totalitarian government throughout history have carried out this.

Herald7

01-26-2012, 06:04 PM

I also like how Shredder blames problems on mutants, to avoid people noticing that Shredder himself is the real bad-ass in town. After all, so many totalitarian government throughout history have carried out this.

Oh absolutely, using fear of difference as a way of winning over and deluding the population. A pretty sinister concept for a cartoon to tackle!

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-26-2012, 06:28 PM

See I'm not even a Spiderman fan, but I really liked that cartoon. It was from Mainframe, creators of the great Beast Wars/Beast Machines cartoon.

I just think that it's impressive that the 2003 cartoon made it through seven seasons with all of the competition that it had. The original cartoon was pretty much the only game in town. When the show started, pretty much all of the 80's toy commercial cartoons were either done, or about to be done. And the DC Animated Universe shows didn't start up until about 1992. So there was a good five years or so where the original TMNT cartoon had virtually no competition. What action cartoon did the original toon have to compete with? The DIC GI Joe series?

I would see "Power Rangers" and "Simpsons" as main competors, even if Power Rangers is not a cartoon, and Simpsons is not just an action cartoon, but the 1987 TMNT cartoon is like a mix of action, science fiction and comedy cartoons.

It was some "New Adventures of He-Man" action cartoon in the early 1990's.

Leo656

01-26-2012, 11:27 PM

I'm gonna agree that the 2K3 Turtles didn't talk like teenagers, but I never thought they really did in any other medium, either. In fact, it's annoying how often teenagers in fictional media are given personalities that don't much resemble reality, but eh, whattyagonnado?

I rewatched the New Adventures of He-Man series not too long ago, and it was better than I remembered. I totally didn't remember, and didn't care for, the way they changed Skeletor's personality to be almost more like Jack Nicholson's Joker, in fact I swear I read that was a direct reference they were going for The show also tried to be too much like Star Wars, and I hated how when they would bring back a character like Teela they looked unrecognizable, but other than that it was more enjoyable than I remembered. I hated lotsa stuff as a kid that I'm really into now.

Herald7

01-26-2012, 11:35 PM

I'm gonna agree that the 2K3 Turtles didn't talk like teenagers, but I never thought they really did in any other medium, either.

Right like I said I don't think they particularly came across like teens in either show. But whereas I like the OT's attempts, I found 2k3's kind of grating.

Avatar Yuffie

01-26-2012, 11:45 PM

Ben10 and Teen Titans is actually a fun kiddie action adventure series too.

Leo656

01-26-2012, 11:46 PM

I always did imagine them being slightly older in 2k3 than the old show. Like they were 14/15 in the old show and 16/18 in the 2k3 show. Not because of anything really, just how I'd see them in my mind. Mikey always seems the youngest in every medium. They're probably all the same age but it seems like Mikey's slightly behind the others in development.

It never bothered me too much when the TMNT act too mature to be teenagers because I never really stayed in line with people my own age either, I always hung out with people a few years older, and for the longest time I just thought everyone did that. I pretty much have no idea what teenagers generally act like.

CyberCubed

01-26-2012, 11:55 PM

I will say this:

When the original cartoon was good, it was REALLY good. I have never been so entertained watching a kids show as watching the better episodes of the original cartoon.

The chemistry between the main cast and villains was amazing. The 4 Turtles, Shredder/Krang/Bebop/Rocksteady and the Channel 6 news crew all had amazing chemistry with each other. And then when they all mixed up and interacted with the separate groups, it was just as good.

In any other series, I would have found characters like Vernon and Irma to be annoying and a waste of time. But in the original cartoon, they were hilarious and it wouldn't be the same without them. David Wise really knew how to make the Channel 6 news crew work.

Leo656

01-27-2012, 12:02 AM

Yeah it's insane how many recurring characters that show had that were memorable. They had a really great ensemble cast, in any given epsiode you could risk it being crowded, especially when the Neutrinos or the frogs would show up, with all the good and bad guys plus April and Irma you could have like 12 characters to juggle at once, but they did a good job of giving everyone just enough to do without it seeming bloated.

Herald7

01-27-2012, 12:11 AM

I pretty much have no idea what teenagers generally act like.

Well I mean maybe we're not being fair. After all the turtles' lives are anything but the typical teenage experience, lol. They had to grow up and take on a lot of responsibility pretty quickly.

Actually the one time I really believed they were teenagers on the OT was when Leonardo becomes the carefree slacker in "Leonardo Lightens Up." Especially when Splinter comes in at the end and sort of becomes the father figure knowing how to humor him, lol. So I guess a lot of it is just the situations they're in.

In any other series, I would have found characters like Vernon and Irma to be annoying and a waste of time. But in the original cartoon, they were hilarious and it wouldn't be the same without them. David Wise really knew how to make the Channel 6 news crew work.

Exactly the Channel 6 group added such a sense of realism to the show as far as grown ups in the real world and all the politics of a work environment.

Avatar Yuffie

01-27-2012, 12:17 AM

Well I mean maybe we're not being fair. After all the turtles' lives are anything but the typical teenage experience, lol. They had to grow up and take on a lot of responsibility pretty quickly.

And they're mutant ninja turtles who live in the sewers with only themselves to grow up with. It's safe to give suspension of disbelief why they can't give an accurate depiction of a teenage human mind.

Still doesn't excuse the 2k3 Turtles can't give a vibe they're supposed to be adolescents.... TBF they tried to fix that in Fast Forward...

Exactly the Channel 6 group added such a sense of realism to the show as far as grown ups in the real world and all the politics of a work environment.

And it's nice to see April has a life outside the TMNT. This is why I think she has an advantage over her 2k3 counterpart (I swear 4Kids doesn't know what to do with her other than being Casey's girlfriend).

Leo656

01-27-2012, 12:35 AM

Yeah I liked OT April way better than 2k3 April, in the newer show she lacked direction.

CyberCubed

01-27-2012, 12:52 AM

Well being a reporter she was able to go exactly where the main plot of an episode would take place to cover it. And her getting captured, etc. would lead to her still playing a big role in the ep.

Avatar Yuffie

01-27-2012, 01:19 AM

That, and as I said before she's the "go to human" for the Turtles. One of them is sick? She babysits. They need a helicopter? She drives them one. Their Turtle Van got busted? She gives them a ride.

It's the little things like that... it gave a sense she was also a family unit. Sure, 2K3 April is an Action Girl and no longer a damsel in distress, but... it bugs me she'd disappear for many MANY episodes/arcs it felt like she's a special guest star than a regular cast member.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-27-2012, 04:44 AM

Exactly the Channel 6 group added such a sense of realism to the show as far as grown ups in the real world and all the politics of a work environment.

I agree, a busy news station really is New York City. It gives a perfect balance contrasting to the fantastic science fiction concepts of mutated turtles, Dimension X or whatever. This makes TMNT so great, som stories are "Down to Earth", other "Up to Dimension X", others something between.

I also like how it gives more recognizeable places with recognizeable background music. He-Man has:
*Castle Grayskull
*Eternia Royal Palace
*Snake Mountain
*Fright Zone

So just having too such places in TMNT is too less.

ZariusTwo

01-27-2012, 06:16 AM

Please explain your unsettling He-Man obsession to the class.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-27-2012, 06:40 AM

It was pretty creepy how April and Irma end up as harem girls, but certainly in many dictatorships it's the women who suffer the most.

And I loved how even Shredder doesn't enjoy being the ruler. It makes total sense for his character. He just wanted power, which he felt meant getting other people to do the paper work for him, lol.

I would also add "Take Me to Your Leader" to serious episodes, it tackles leadership, tackling leadership and responsibility. Leonardo leaves, noone wants to take responsibility, and the entire world is in great danger. It's not until Leonardo has to trust himself again they can face off Shredder together.

pannoni1

01-27-2012, 07:59 AM

I would definitely give the 4kids a second chance the judge which series you prefer; that way you can have an extra sense of plot that is much appreciated, especially if you know the OT by heart, or vice-versa. If you feel "fuzzy" about any of the shows and feel that curious urge, then it's a good time to watch. I am especially going to rewatch both of these once a release date for the Nick series is released, so that I can have another sense of comparison when that show begins; it can make effective discussion when we see "Nick vs. OT" type threads come up.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-27-2012, 10:49 AM

Please explain your unsettling He-Man obsession to the class.

He-Man and TMNT is just two successful 1980's cartoons.

Herald7

01-27-2012, 01:53 PM

I would also add "Take Me to Your Leader" to serious episodes, it tackles leadership, tackling leadership and responsibility. Leonardo leaves, noone wants to take responsibility, and the entire world is in great danger. It's not until Leonardo has to trust himself again they can face off Shredder together.

Oh yeah I love that, a real character driven episode. And they really seem like brothers here. How they're pushing Raphael to be the leader, though they're clearly not taking him seriously, lol. And it was pretty insightful how he realized it's easier to make wise cracks than decisions. I still think that's why he's always so sarcastic, because he thinks he's not good at anything else.

Leonardo's whining could have gotten really annoying, but I actually felt sorry for him after awhile, lol. And of course Michelangelo is just adorable ("Hey, like, that's why I'm the leader!") :tcool:

Not to mention this episode has one of the best Donatello lines ever: "...And then I looked up and saw the fireworks." Lol :tlol:

ABrown

01-27-2012, 02:46 PM

Please explain your unsettling He-Man obsession to the class.

He-Man and TMNT is just two successful 1980's cartoons.

What's interesting is that He-Man and TMNT are two cartoons that had (what I consider) much better cartoons in the 2000's compared to the ones that aired on television when I was a kid. The difference is that at least the original TMNT cartoon holds up a lot better 25 years later than the original He-Man cartoon does.

ZariusTwo

01-27-2012, 05:07 PM

The 80s He-Man's not exactly horrid, it just suffers from Filmation's appauling animation.

Though to be honest I always thought the 90s He-Man series (the one where he's in space), s infinitly superior both in writing and animation, but despite having a 65 episode run, the show didnt make a big enough impact with the mainstream and is below-niche

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-27-2012, 05:09 PM

Oh yeah I love that, a real character driven episode. And they really seem like brothers here. How they're pushing Raphael to be the leader, though they're clearly not taking him seriously, lol. And it was pretty insightful how he realized it's easier to make wise cracks than decisions. I still think that's why he's always so sarcastic, because he thinks he's not good at anything else.

Leonardo's whining could have gotten really annoying, but I actually felt sorry for him after awhile, lol. And of course Michelangelo is just adorable ("Hey, like, that's why I'm the leader!") :tcool:

Not to mention this episode has one of the best Donatello lines ever: "...And then I looked up and saw the fireworks." Lol :tlol:

Yeah, it's more like the 2003 show in one way. I also like how April and Irma try to contact the Turtles from a snow-covered and frozen Channel 6 building with ice in the radiators, where the staff just sit in winter clothes, but due to Irma's fail, they can't. Probably the only episode whee April and Irma are shown, without getting any contact with the Turtles. They just have to sit there, freezing and waiting for the day to be saved.

Herald7

01-27-2012, 06:20 PM

I also like how April and Irma try to contact the Turtles from a snow-covered and frozen Channel 6 building with ice in the radiators, where the staff just sit in winter clothes, but due to Irma's fail, they can't. Probably the only episode whee April and Irma are shown, without getting any contact with the Turtles. They just have to sit there, freezing and waiting for the day to be saved.

Yeah I laughed when I realized they were just going to leave them hanging like that, lol. But I guess it made sense, it really was a turtle-centric story. Awesome! :tgrin:

Chipzard

01-27-2012, 08:57 PM

don't worry about all of that dude you do what you do
Sigh yeah I know, I just watch some short funny videos on youtube instead :D Sometime, I'll watch some certain favorite scenes from some movies too :tgrin:

Leo656

01-28-2012, 02:58 AM

I loved the rotoscoping style animation as used in the 80s He-Man and other Filmation shows, the problem is that Filmation only had about three movement animations for each character, budget-wise. But rotoscoped characters move much more smoothly and lifelike than in almost any other animation style. If they had more stock footage to use it would'a been better, but eh, whattya gonna do?

Writing-wise, though, 2k3 He-Man clearly wins. I thought both the newer He-Man and TMNT shows had better plots than the originals (generally speaking of course, the original He-Man and TMNT both had tons of gems), and still feel bad that neither got quite the attention I feel they deserved, not sure if too much time had passed since the originals or what.

I remember talking with friends my own age about TMNT back in 2003 and they'd all be like, "That was awesome, they should bring that back," and when I told them there was a new show out presently they'd always respond they weren't getting up before noon on a Saturday no matter how much they liked a cartoon when they were 8. People are stupid sometimes.

Avatar Yuffie

01-28-2012, 05:56 AM

To be fair, 2k3 Turtles had a lot of competition... Avatar the Last Airbender, Teen Titans, Justice League and Ben10. Very good cartoons.

Herald7

01-28-2012, 12:14 PM

I remember talking with friends my own age about TMNT back in 2003 and they'd all be like, "That was awesome, they should bring that back," and when I told them there was a new show out presently they'd always respond they weren't getting up before noon on a Saturday no matter how much they liked a cartoon when they were 8. People are stupid sometimes.

Lol, well I have to admit I had the same reaction initially. It's a lot easier to get up early on Saturdays when you're a little kid. But when you're older, yeah, some people just aren't morning people, lol. But hey, that's why you record things! ;)

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-28-2012, 12:20 PM

Oh absolutely, using fear of difference as a way of winning over and deluding the population. A pretty sinister concept for a cartoon to tackle!

I also like a 2003 episode called "Same As It Never Was" that also takes elements from "Shredderville" and "Elementary, Mye Dear Turtle". Same As It Never Was may be darker, but Shredderville deeper.

Herald7

01-28-2012, 02:14 PM

I also like a 2003 episode called "Same As It Never Was" that also takes elements from "Shredderville" and "Elementary, Mye Dear Turtle". Same As It Never Was may be darker, but Shredderville deeper.

OK I did check out "Same As it Never Was." Well first off it's just hard for me to get past the 2k3 turtles, they're bland, I just don't like them, lol. I mean every now and then I liked them, but then the dialogue would ruin it. And those "what the shell" lines, and people say the OT was cheesy? I mean the Smurfs' joke was funnier than that! ;)

Now as far as the storyline:

"Where the shell have you been all these years? You've been gone for 30 years, Donatello." Um, didn't I see this in that Flight of the Navigator movie? ;)

"Beware what you do, the Shredder is watching." Ooo, subtle! I mean I know the show's for little kids, but really! I never take that as an excuse.

"Rebel leader," .....Yeah it's just impossible for any other franchise to use that phrase ever again, lol.

"This whole attack was to get you into position to do THIS!" I feel like that dialogue could have been tightened up a bit.

But on the positive side, yes the storyline is intriguing. Rather flattering to Donatello that the team would fall apart that badly without him. And I did like the moment when Don interrupted Leo and Raph's fight.

But on the whole I agree with Swedenfan, darker but not particularly deeper. I thought "Shredderville's" plot was a bit more thought provoking as far as issues of leader politics and fear mongering.

ZariusTwo

01-28-2012, 04:02 PM

Ben10 and Teen Titans is actually a fun kiddie action adventure series too.

Teen Titans crossed a lot of adult lines despite being for kids. Raven was practically raped in the fourth season's "Birthmark".

CyberCubed

01-28-2012, 09:41 PM

I honestly wish the old series went on a few more years. If Pokemon, Power Rangers etc. could all go on over 15 seasons and counting I feel TMNT could have been the same.

Avatar Yuffie

01-29-2012, 07:43 AM

Teen Titans crossed a lot of adult lines despite being for kids. Raven was practically raped in the fourth season's "Birthmark".

Well, that, and we have their wacky adventures such as the time they're trapped in a TV world or Robin reluctantly takes a villain's daughter to a prom while his love interest is seething at the sidelines. That's the thing... that show managed to find balance between funny and serious.

ZariusTwo

01-29-2012, 09:31 AM

Well, that, and we have their wacky adventures such as the time they're trapped in a TV world or Robin reluctantly takes a villain's daughter to a prom while his love interest is seething at the sidelines. That's the thing... that show managed to find balance between funny and serious.

Oh yes, very. I loved that they did that, but when it could be, it was much darker than the DCAU ever was.

I honestly wish the old series went on a few more years. If Pokemon, Power Rangers etc. could all go on over 15 seasons and counting I feel TMNT could have been the same.

I have no idea how Pokemon stays on the air, it's lead character doesnt age, he doesnt win any big tournament, he doesnt get closure on several of his rivalries, and he's never had an interesting releationship. I also find it hard to beleive he's saved the planet multiple times from ancient Pokemon and never gotten any recognition for it. I'm probably being a nit-picker about it though, but TMNT and Power Rangers at least can claim they've moved forward in all the time they've been on air.

Falconhood

01-29-2012, 11:36 AM

yep! I have! Since December wiped me out, I blew off some old VHS Tapes and have really enjoyed the early days of TMNT!

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-29-2012, 11:57 AM

OK I did check out "Same As it Never Was." Well first off it's just hard for me to get past the 2k3 turtles, they're bland, I just don't like them, lol. I mean every now and then I liked them, but then the dialogue would ruin it. And those "what the shell" lines, and people say the OT was cheesy? I mean the Smurfs' joke was funnier than that! ;)

My biggest problem with the 2003 show is episodes where a lot of strange monsters (like dragons) show up. But absolutely noone is eaten... :)

I prefer episodes when they face bad guys in town, or the Massachusetts farm (which I would like to see in the 1987 cartoon). I also didn't like Utrom Shredder, science fiction stories are better told with Krang, who could be more like Archie Krang.

Herald7

01-29-2012, 12:30 PM

My biggest problem with the 2003 show is episodes where a lot of strange monsters (like dragons) show up. But absolutely noone is eaten... :)

True, kind of a missed opportunity there, lol. ;)

ABrown

01-29-2012, 02:39 PM

I also didn't like Utrom Shredder

Believe me, I'm as much anti Utrom Shredder as anyone. But the creators handled it in a way that it didn't take away from the show's greatness. The third season of the show made me completely accepting of their decision to make Shredder an Utrom. Had season three been more about Shredder's Utrom persona than about his Oroku Saki persona, I definitely could've been completely turned off by the show.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-29-2012, 03:27 PM

Believe me, I'm as much anti Utrom Shredder as anyone. But the creators handled it in a way that it didn't take away from the show's greatness. The third season of the show made me completely accepting of their decision to make Shredder an Utrom. Had season three been more about Shredder's Utrom persona than about his Oroku Saki persona, I definitely could've been completely turned off by the show.

I don't understand what was the problem with keeping Shredder an ordinary human, and instead bringing Krang to the new show and let him be a bad guy Utrom (more like Archie Krang, who often killed off all life on entire planets in Dimension X). This would let the 2003 show stay more true with the Mirage Comics, but still being open for new stories.

MikeandRaph87

01-29-2012, 03:42 PM

I don't understand what was the problem with keeping Shredder an ordinary human, and instead bringing Krang to the new show and let him be a bad guy Utrom (more like Archie Krang, who often killed off all life on entire planets in Dimension X). This would let the 2003 show stay more true with the Mirage Comics, but still being open for new stories.

This goes back to the idea that Peter Laird hates the fact the 1987 cartoon went far away from his vision of his creation and does not want to have anything of it resurface while he is in control. He wants as much focus on the Mirage Comics only as possible with new elements that the show creates for itself. That means a large majority of secondary charcters that should pop up like Krang are barred for no good reason. While I can see why of that mindset beyond Baxter The Fly and Technodrome bits its a real shame he didn't like what it has become.

Part of the problem of the Utrom Shredder aside from the fact I don't like the idea of Shredder not being human is the fact as an utrom master criminal it reminds me of Krang who is a master criminal who is derived from the utroms like the series combined Shredder and Krang when in fact they did not subconciously its hard to not think it.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-29-2012, 04:00 PM

This goes back to the idea that Peter Laird hates the fact the 1987 cartoon went far away from his vision of his creation and does not want to have anything of it resurface while he is in control. He wants as much focus on the Mirage Comics only as possible with new elements that the show creates for itself. That means a large majority of secondary charcters that should pop up like Krang are barred for no good reason. While I can see why of that mindset beyond Baxter The Fly and Technodrome bits its a real shame he didn't like what it has become.

Part of the problem of the Utrom Shredder aside from the fact I don't like the idea of Shredder not being human is the fact as an utrom master criminal it reminds me of Krang who is a master criminal who is derived from the utroms like the series combined Shredder and Krang when in fact they did not subconciously its hard to not think it.

Sad. I don't like the ideas as.
*All Mirage = Good just because it's Mirage
*All 1987 = Bad just because it's 1987

Fly Baxter Stockman doesn't need to appear, but I still dislike even more what they did to 2003 Baxter Stockman (becoming some brain-guy inside a robot, is he the Earth's own Krang or what?). :)

MikeandRaph87

01-29-2012, 05:34 PM

Sad. I don't like the ideas as.
*All Mirage = Good just because it's Mirage
*All 1987 = Bad just because it's 1987

Fly Baxter Stockman doesn't need to appear, but I still dislike even more what they did to 2003 Baxter Stockman (becoming some brain-guy inside a robot, is he the Earth's own Krang or what?). :)

I mentioned those two things because that is what Peter told me in person were the only two things that he really enjoyed about the show.

Its people's mindset like that that turn me off the Mirage Comics. I admit I am primarily an other media fan. Most of the stuff I grew to love were from the 1987 cartoon. It made me a fan and if its Mirage Comics all the time my interest is limited because most of the more interesting characters didn't appear in the Mirage Comics and if they did the characters didn't get near enough attention like Shredder,Rat King, and Leatherhead. I really like the 2003 cartoon and all but like the 1987 characters better. My main gripe with the 2003 cartoon would be turning Shredder and Rat King non-human and the less than favorable portryal of Michelangelo as well as not bringing back classic characters. I hope IDW and Nick combined can do all of that but time will tell.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-29-2012, 06:23 PM

My main gripe with the 2003 cartoon would be turning Shredder and Rat King non-human and the less than favorable portryal of Michelangelo as well as not bringing back classic characters. I hope IDW and Nick combined can do all of that but time will tell.

Is Rat King non-human in Mirage? I like 1987 Rat King best, and after all he's human. Other things I dislike with 2003 is the cyberspace season at the end, and Cyber Shredder. I can stand Tengu Shredder a little bit more (Japanese mysticism).

Karai is a character I like. She should be in the 1987 show, Archie or some movie. The problem with the 1987 Karai would be, where would she go when Shredder meets Krang? She would probably not live in the Technodrome.

2003 Michelangelo is no problem for me.

MikeandRaph87

01-29-2012, 06:42 PM

[QUOTE=Swedenfan 1982;906340]Is Rat King non-human in Mirage? I like 1987 Rat King best, and after all he's human. Other things I dislike with 2003 is the cyberspace season at the end, and Cyber Shredder. I can stand Tengu Shredder a little bit more (Japanese mysticism).

He is human in the Mirage Comics just like Shredder but the 2003 cartoon made them both non-humans. That irks me because of the lack of humans in TMNT lorei n the first place. Of the three to four Shredder versions in the 2003 cartoon I liked the Tengu Shredder the best. It was also nice to fit Oroku Saki as a human as Shredder in a way. As far as Back To The Sewers goes I was let down by The Shredder War never happening. I was waiting form the season opener that it was in but it never developed. I wanted to see the series go on a few episodes longer for it to occur.

Agent Bishop who experiments with clone bodies to make super soliders and prolong his own life( a contemporary of Andy Jackson) created his imperfect clone in "Bishop's Gambit". The imperfect clone was called The Slayer and after they were defeated and SPlinter was rescued The Slayer was flushed down the sewers and wraped himself in bandages. He was never referred to as The Rat King but was a misunderstood "monster" that the TMNT crossed pathes with and when fighting again they recognized they crossed paths before but were ignorant that it was Agent Bishop's impefect clone called The Slayer.

Karai is a character I like. She should be in the 1987 show, Archie or some movie. The problem with the 1987 Karai would be, where would she go when Shredder meets Krang? She would probably not live in the Technodrome.

Well, she was not introduced until 1993's City At War in Mirage Comics so its possible but not much chance for her to appear. Lotus Blossom is often compared to her because of her skills and questioning her working with the side of evil because honor is the most important thing to her not ot mention relationship with Leonardo. So retroactively she could be the original cartoon's stand in for Karai. We did see Karai in one of the three variants of the Tournament Fighters.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-30-2012, 06:45 AM

[QUOTE]

He is human in the Mirage Comics just like Shredder but the 2003 cartoon made them both non-humans. That irks me because of the lack of humans in TMNT lorei n the first place. Of the three to four Shredder versions in the 2003 cartoon I liked the Tengu Shredder the best. It was also nice to fit Oroku Saki as a human as Shredder in a way. As far as Back To The Sewers goes I was let down by The Shredder War never happening. I was waiting form the season opener that it was in but it never developed. I wanted to see the series go on a few episodes longer for it to occur.

Agent Bishop who experiments with clone bodies to make super soliders and prolong his own life( a contemporary of Andy Jackson) created his imperfect clone in "Bishop's Gambit". The imperfect clone was called The Slayer and after they were defeated and SPlinter was rescued The Slayer was flushed down the sewers and wraped himself in bandages. He was never referred to as The Rat King but was a misunderstood "monster" that the TMNT crossed pathes with and when fighting again they recognized they crossed paths before but were ignorant that it was Agent Bishop's impefect clone called The Slayer.

Well, she was not introduced until 1993's City At War in Mirage Comics so its possible but not much chance for her to appear. Lotus Blossom is often compared to her because of her skills and questioning her working with the side of evil because honor is the most important thing to her not ot mention relationship with Leonardo. So retroactively she could be the original cartoon's stand in for Karai. We did see Karai in one of the three variants of the Tournament Fighters.

Thanks. I was always confused about Rat King in the Mirage Comics, as he's refered to as "Monster".

And with Karai, maybe she's after all inspired by Lotus instead.

MikeandRaph87

01-30-2012, 08:21 AM

[QUOTE=mikeandraph87;906346]

Thanks. I was always confused about Rat King in the Mirage Comics, as he's refered to as "Monster".

I can see that. I can also see why the 4Kids team decided to make him non-human because of the beliefs that he is a savage monster to others even if I detest the idea. He was a man who ended up badly injured in a hospital in NYC yet its not told how he was injured that was given the title of keeper of the rats or something to that effect by a mystical being. There was one for each zodiac animal. The person holds the title until defeated by another who then usurps it unless turned down and given a second chance at their death. I can't find a good synosis of Tales vol.2#35 but here si a good write up form TMNT Enternity on Tales vol.1#4:
http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2011/12/tales-of-tmnt-vol-1-4.html

And with Karai, maybe she's after all inspired by Lotus instead.

I asked Dan Berger in email around 2005 a question about Turtlebot and Karai. He replied than it was just a coincidence that Lotus Blossom and Karai have similarities and that instead of inspiration for Karai it may have been subconciously. Turtlebot's simlarities to Metalhead was in the same respect. Metalhead wa not thought of when Turtlebot was created for Leatherhead's debut episode.

TonySiegel

01-30-2012, 07:07 PM

I've come to a decision fellow clansmen... I will begin my studies of the various Ninja Turtle cartoon incarnations with the OG cartoon. Hopefully it will not be tarnished because of my age (I remember being a child and recognizing the show's impeccability). Will report back in due time!

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-31-2012, 03:34 PM

[QUOTE=Swedenfan 1982;906489]

I asked Dan Berger in email around 2005 a question about Turtlebot and Karai. He replied than it was just a coincidence that Lotus Blossom and Karai have similarities and that instead of inspiration for Karai it may have been subconciously. Turtlebot's simlarities to Metalhead was in the same respect. Metalhead wa not thought of when Turtlebot was created for Leatherhead's debut episode.

So, if you say Peter Larid disliked a lot of the 1987 show, how can we be sure it's true that Karai or Turtlebot weren't inspired by Lotus and Metalhead from the 1987 cartoon.

Watching City at War in the 2003 show again, I see similairities between the maffia leader and another maffia leader, Big Louie in the 1987 show.