Peter Laird on IDW TMNT

[Andrew NDB]

From his blog:

"I've read a couple of issues of the IDW comics, and I just can't get into them, for whatever reasons. I think the most off-putting thing about them -- for me, at least -- is that they don't seem very unique, especially as far as the artwork goes. Say what you will about the weaknesses of our original comics as far as the art is concerned -- and I freely admit we had our weaknesses -- at the very least Kevin and I put a lot of effort into what we were doing and tried to make it look different. Or maybe it just ended up looking different because that's all we were capable of doing!

There is also something about modern color comics which drives me nuts, and that is the unfortunate (as far as I am concerned) tendency towards filling every available space with something -- be it linework and/or color -- instead of taking the classic approach of panels with borders and white space in between. I think the latter approach allows the pages to "breathe", and to my eye, anyway, the former approach is cluttered and generally ugly.

I am also disheartened by the way the story seems to be developing -- there just seem to be a lot of changes made for change's sake. And the introduction of yet another mutated animal character right away (Old Hob) pushes one of my buttons, and not in a good way.

I'm thinking that when the first IDW collection of these new TMNT comics is released, I may pick that up and read it all at one sitting and see if my opinion changes.

As far as wanting my input for any ongoing new TMNT productions at IDW, no, they have not approached me. That's probably a good thing, given the direction in which they seem to be heading. And lest people get the wrong idea, I wish IDW all the best of luck with their TMNT projects."

And later:

"Not really knowing anything about this new "Krang", I won't venture an opinion.

[on April naming the Turtles] This is one of the things which I think gives this new comic series a significantly different "feel" than the original TMNT stories that Kevin and I created. There seems to be more trying to make things seem -- I don't know -- "realistic"? Like it's easier to buy a human female naming turtles after Renaissance artists than a mutated rat. There seems to be less acceptance of some of the ofttimes whimsical nature of what Kevin and I did… and I find the result somewhat lacking.

[about the reincarnation angle] It does nothing for me, and in fact seems emblematic of a trend -- to make things bigger and more "meaningful" than they really need to be -- that I see in modern comics, especially in new "takes" on established characters. I was just reading something online recently about someone remaking the origin of Spider-Man, I think, so that instead of just being a kid who is transformed by the bite of a radioactive spider, he's actually the latest incarnation of some spider deity or something (sorry if I am messing this up -- I just quickly read the piece and don't remember where to find it again). I think it kind of started with Alan Moore when he reinvented "Swamp Thing" and turned him into a "plant elemental". That worked pretty well, but the problem is most writers aren't as brilliant as Alan Moore often is.

I also feel that it diminishes the characters of the Turtles and Splinter… like they can't be who they ARE, they have to be like someone else WAS.

And finally, one of the things about the way we created the Turtles that I always liked was the random, accidental nature of it. For some reason, I find that appealing (possibly because the origin of the Turtles sort of mirrors the creation of that first TMNT comic itself!)… and it's why whenever a new project would come up and someone would suggest redoing the origin of the Turtles and almost inevitably start with "See, there's this firm that's working on genetic engineering, and they take these turtles and -- ", I would shoot that down right away. It always felt so boring to me, so hackneyed. So obvious.

Now, I say all of the above with this caveat: I have not read all of the IDW TMNT comics. I think someday I will, in collected form, so that I can read a bunch of them all at once, conveniently. Maybe after I've done that, I will change my mind. Not likely, but possible. -- PL

[AquaParade]

This is pretty much what I expected. Interesting nonetheless. I feel that Peter is very much a fan of respecting source material. His thoughts on the recent Star Trek reboot, and his big concern with what and what isn't "canon" in the Mirage comics, etc. Stuff like that kind of paints a picture. I suspect he isn't a man accustomed to change. I can only guess, though. Not to say his opinions aren't valid. I wouldn't mind hearing him expand on his thoughts later on.

Thanks for gathering the info though, I kept putting off asking Peter this question, myself.

[CyberCubed]

He's just not fond of color comics, that's what seems to be distracting him. I see why he kept the Mirage run black and white for 25 years.

Other than that the story does read better when you have 4 issues together. The whole first arc was meant to be read in one sitting. I think that his awkwardness around it was the same we had due to the new origin but we're more used to it now.

[Andrew NDB]

He's just not fond of color comics, that's what seems to be distracting him. I see why he kept the Mirage run black and white for 25 years.

What do you mean? Vol. 2 in color was something he pushed for.

[ToTheNines]

I was gonna call him out, but with a 13:170+ color to black and white ratio, I gave Cyber the benefit of the doubt.

[CyberCubed]

What do you mean? Vol. 2 in color was something he pushed for.

They only did that to boost sales, which failed. That's why Mirage stopped publishing among other financial problems at the time.

[TonySiegel]

Not surprised by this... There goes the chance of Peter Laird and Kevin Eastman "collaboing" with IDW for atleast 1 issue :tsad:

[Powder]

Not surprised by this... There goes the chance of Peter Laird and Kevin Eastman "collaboing" with IDW for atleast 1 issue :tsad:

Not at all. Pete said he'd work on something but only by the personal invitation of Kevin Eastman.

[Andrew NDB]

Not at all. Pete said he'd work on something but only by the personal invitation of Kevin Eastman.

That's right. That's what he's said.

[twopinacoladas]

These are things I thought myself, I didn't like the idea of a new mutant cat, I didn't particularly care for the artwork and some of the coloring threw me off. I think some of the recent issues have been a bit better tho. I see where Pete is coming from any how as I had very similar first impressions.

[Uki]

As a big fan of Pete's, I was excited to read his thoughts. I understand where he's coming from, but at the same time, I like the changes made in IDW. I stil looooove me some classic Mirage stuff, but this is a great new take with some fresh blood pumped in and a bit of the OT sprinkled in for seasoning. (Sorry for the mixed metaphors.) ;)

[Oculus Orbus]

These are things I thought myself, I didn't like the idea of a new mutant cat, I didn't particularly care for the artwork and some of the coloring threw me off. I think some of the recent issues have been a bit better tho. I see where Pete is coming from any how as I had very similar first impressions.

Pretty much the same here. More than the coloring, is the overall of the art what doesn't really look too good in my eye. I can tell Dan Duncan is a great artist, but I feel like TMNT doesn't fit him somehow, and there's quite a lot of pages that seem a bit rushed. I can't wait to read Ross Campbell's Leonardo, because I think he'd be more like the kind of artist that perfectly suits in the Turtles universe. Script wise, I was expecting changes to be made, and was actually very excited about it. But I can't help thinking that some bits have been done kind of careless, like Casey and his dad's reaction when they first see Raph (not to mention him buying a hot dog). I mean, I'd be just fine with those things, if the mood of the story were to go that route, wich in my opinion, it doesn't. I've read Waltz's explanation on the subject, but it still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I feel like IDW's Turtles are already very far from the 'urban legends' type of concept. Then you've got the whole new origin, wich could potentially bring a lot of things that I never wanted to see in the franchise. I already dislike the idea of reincarnated Turtles, but also, I'm worried there's gonna be stuff related to that going on forever.

And, rainbow bandanas.

[Venom]

Not at all. Pete said he'd work on something but only by the personal invitation of Kevin Eastman.

That's right. That's what he's said.

Link to the quote, please. I can't find it again for the life of me. :/

[AcidBurn30]

maybe Peter should of thought about this before he sold them to someone else..If he upset about the comic books, (Which to me did a GREAT job)..Wait til he finds out about the 3 toe CGI Nicks are doing to the turtles..I have a feeling he'll be back with the turtles. I mean we did hear Kevin was finish with tmnt and now he's back..

[Powder]

Maybe you should read Pete's other feelings about the TMNT as a whole before you get mixed up.
He basically said if he could go back and un-create them, he would. Don't bank on it.
Besides, Kevin was gone for over a decade. Pete's only been out of the scene for roughly 3.

[Galactus]

He was gentler in his criticism than I expected him to be although maybe I'm projecting my own negativity of the series onto Laird.

I agree with some of what he said and then add in some of my own issues as a fan that probably cares in a very different way to a creator.

I feel that Peter is very much a fan of respecting source material. His thoughts on the recent Star Trek reboot, and his big concern with what and what isn't "canon" in the Mirage comics, etc. Stuff like that kind of paints a picture. I suspect he isn't a man accustomed to change. I can only guess, though. Not to say his opinions aren't valid. I wouldn't mind hearing him expand on his thoughts later on.

I do agree to a point but a guy who green lighted the creation of Ch'rell can't be that afraid of change. To me it seems that IDW brought about these big changes right out the gate and it's taken six issues to set up the basics and it doesn't look like we'll be getting round to the "good stuff" just yet.

This is a shame as I do think Waltz writes the turtles and Splinter very well. I'd like to have seen more of this rather than spending five issues ultimate-izing the characters.

These are things I thought myself, I didn't like the idea of a new mutant cat

I was excited about Old Hob as I figured we weren't getting an army of mutants and he was billed as a different but just as important villain as the Shredder and well....he just isn't.

[CyberCubed]

Old Hob is awesome. He'll probably go rogue at some point.

[Jester]

Maybe. Right now he's almost early Bebop and Rocksteady caliber.

[Samhain]

He basically said if he could go back and un-create them, he would. Don't bank on it.
Besides, Kevin was gone for over a decade. Pete's only been out of the scene for roughly 3.

Yeah, this comment in particular left me feeling a little... weird. I don't see how Kevin is the way he is and Peter is like that. I mean, what has Peter gained by creating the turtles? Alot. He has his wife and his daughter. A happy life, at least on the outside. And he's a millionaire. I just don't get how Kevin can be such a cool dude and Peter such a .... well, you know.

Maybe there are things that happened behind the scenes that we don't know about but jeez, when a creator says something like that about his creations it's a bit unsettling, to be honest.

[VaughnMichael]

I'm in agreement with him thus far but still along for the ride.

[Jester]

Samhain, I think it's because for the last decade he's been the sole owner of the Turtles and everything went through him and he's just totally burnt out. He had to deal with the business end and, probably even more so, fans. Especially some of the ones of us who are never satisfied, and let him know... everywhere. Kevin, on the other hand, seems to get altogether nicer treatment. I can't remember anyone openly complaining on how he handles the Turtles, like many have when Peter was at the helm.

Not saying that their respective attitudes and personalities have nothing to do with it, but I'm sure the TMNT burn-out of being in control for the entire life of the franchise has a lot to do with it. Peter seems to take it all to heart, even if we didn't intend to be hurtful.

[AquaParade]

I do agree to a point but a guy who green lighted the creation of Ch'rell can't be that afraid of change. To me it seems that IDW brought about these big changes right out the gate and it's taken six issues to set up the basics and it doesn't look like we'll be getting round to the "good stuff" just yet.

This is a shame as I do think Waltz writes the turtles and Splinter very well. I'd like to have seen more of this rather than spending five issues ultimate-izing the characters.



I was excited about Old Hob as I figured we weren't getting an army of mutants and he was billed as a different but just as important villain as the Shredder and well....he just isn't.

I agree that the earlier issues could have been utilized better. At least that is my perspective so far. I can't imagine going back and reading issue's 1-4 in the long run, honestly. I'll probably usually start with 5, 6, and the Raph Micro, in the future, which were the issues I've really enjoyed so far.


Peter seems to take it all to heart, even if we didn't intend to be hurtful.

Aw.

[CyberCubed]

Issues 1-4 are great and if you read them as one story arc it opened this universe quite nicely.

[Mayhem]

Maybe when we look back at #1-4 here in context they will appear better, but they didn't spring out at me like the early originals did. I guess because they are a story arc, not singles, and that things are a little spread out in explaining. I have still enjoyed them though.

[oldmanwinters]

To be honest, if I wasn't a hard-core TMNT fan, I probably would have dropped the title after issue #4.

Of course... the hype behind #5 may have drawn me back in one more time just so I could finally get the full(er?) origin story.

I do have high hopes for the near future of IDW, however!

[CyberCubed]

It is bizarre that PL said he would erase it all in a second if he could go back in time. Not only is it strange because he flat out said his daughter Emily might not have existed...but this made him a millionaire.

No matter how successfull he might have become being an illustrator, he sure as hell would have never become a millionaire like he did when TMNT became really big.

And as he said, what about all the friendships he made over the years through the Turtles? The enthusiasm from fans? The impact on pop culture?

It really is weird. It almost makes it seem like he feels he wasted his life on the TMNT franchise and wanted to be something else.

[Samhain]

It is bizarre that PL said he would erase it all in a second if he could go back in time. Not only is it strange because he flat out said his daughter Emily might not have existed...but this made him a millionaire.

No matter how successfull he might have become being an illustrator, he sure as hell would have never become a millionaire like he did when TMNT became really big.

And as he said, what about all the friendships he made over the years through the Turtles? The enthusiasm from fans? The impact on pop culture?

It really is weird. It almost makes it seem like he feels he wasted his life on the TMNT franchise and wanted to be something else.

Yeah. I just wanna know what has he LOST by being the co-creator of the Tmnt? One of the reasons why I have such a huge heart for the Tmnt franchise as a whole is it's kinda the american dream. Stuff they make movies about. Just 2 regular guys, late one night decide to do a silly comic. It takes the world by storm and they get rich. Maybe 10 years away from the turtles will put everything into perspective for Peter.

[CyberCubed]

Yeah. I just wanna know what has he LOST by being the co-creator of the Tmnt? One of the reasons why I have such a huge heart for the Tmnt franchise as a whole is it's kinda the american dream. Stuff they make movies about. Just 2 regular guys, late one night decide to do a silly comic. It takes the world by storm and they get rich. Maybe 10 years away from the turtles will put everything into perspective for Peter.

Agreed, its not like his family life is bad either. He has a wife that's been with him for like 20 years, he has a daughter in College, he still keeps in touch with his friends at Mirage, etc.

If he was divorced, never had kids, and was a bitter old man living by himself I could see where the disdain stemmed from...but that's clearly not the case. His family life seems very positive and loving.

[Donnie]

I'm glad he feels the same way most of us do about the first film, though. The ideal TMNT movie.

[Andrew NDB]

It is bizarre that PL said he would erase it all in a second if he could go back in time. Not only is it strange because he flat out said his daughter Emily might not have existed...but this made him a millionaire.

He specifically said he would only go back if it meant his daughter wouldn't cease to exist.

[Jester]

I am reminded of the old adage, "Money can't buy happiness."

Just sayin'.

EDIT: Also, didn't he say "Emily as we know her..." Meaning the Turtles in a way shaped her life quite a bit, and she'd be a different person if she wasn't the daughter of "that guy who created the Turtles."

[CyberCubed]

I am reminded of the old adage, "Money can't buy happiness."

Just sayin'.

EDIT: Also, didn't he say "Emily as we know her..." Meaning the Turtles in a way shaped her life quite a bit, and she'd be a different person if she wasn't the daughter of "that guy who created the Turtles."

Its common sense if you have a baby in a different year, it won't be the same baby as you would have had otherwise.

If you went back in time to have your first born a year later than what it was originally...it would turn out to be an entirely different baby or person.

[Samhain]

This thread is getting weird...

[CyberCubed]

This thread is getting weird...

We're trying to get inside Peter Laird's head, that's all.

[Noah13]

TMNT is known for being re-invented. Think about all the different versions we have of the turtles.

The IDW is just another re-invention, and from what I've read from Peter Laird, he doesn't like change to his work.

I like the IDW verison. Seeing some ideas from OT being brought into comic form and having a gritty feel to it, just keeps things interesting.

Its just getting hard to still like the guy when he negativity criticizes on other peoples interpretations all the time.

[Dovahkiin]

I agree with Peter on the changes to TMNT. The idea of Old Hob is not great in any way and it is true that it does seem like "...there just seem to be alot of changes made for change's sake."-Peter Laird. I also believe that none of the changes make sense.

Like April O'Niel naming the turtles and the idea of them being mutated instantly into teenagers and all of a sudden develope deep feelings for one another, which is unrealistic behaviour.

-but in the end I can't deny the fact that IDW did create a interesting setup for TMNT. Even though I have alot of dislikes I will still read/watch the comic and new show and just enjoy it for it's own reasons.

[Dovahkiin]

TMNT is known for being re-invented. Think about all the different versions we have of the turtles.

The IDW is just another re-invention, and from what I've read from Peter Laird, he doesn't like change to his work.

I like the IDW verison. Seeing some ideas from OT being brought into comic form and having a gritty feel to it, just keeps things interesting.

Its just getting hard to still like the guy when he negativity criticizes on other peoples interpretations all the time. Many great directors and developers state their dislikes of a product for the sake of improvement. It is the hard part but the people who make the product must heed a critic's review. Paying attention to only the likes will cease innovation that would make the product better.

[Andrew NDB]

Myself, I think it's premature for Peter to say there's changes for the sake of changes... when we have not yet seen the fruition of those changes, where the plot threads will take us to.

It's true, they may take us to... crap. But I really suspect not.

[Plasticplayhouse]

What do you mean? Vol. 2 in color was something he pushed for.

Volume two being colorized was originally something that I looked forward to during vol one. I always thought, "man if the turtles were in color it would be even more awesome!" Once vol two hit, I quickly came to the realisation that black & white was a big part of what I really loved about the turtle comics. It added to the grittiness that the turtle comics were known and loved for. IMO that was one of the major reasons vol two tanked. I think many fans found that colorization was a mammoth change that was better in theory than actuality. After the first two issues I was (temporarily) done with the turtles. A big part of my being done with them was the feeling of being let down and the fact I was going into high school so my new priorities were girls and saving up for a car. The tmnt comic just didn't feel the same anymore.

Any way...I also agree with Pete about the borders and comic being able to breath.

[CyberCubed]

I agree with Peter on the changes to TMNT. The idea of Old Hob is not great in any way and it is true that it does seem like

Its quite obvious Old Hob is in the series for the long haul. I truly expect him to go rogue and betray Baxter and/or Krang.

Like April O'Niel naming the turtles and the idea of them being mutated instantly into teenagers and all of a sudden develope deep feelings for one another, which is unrealistic behaviour.

April naming the Turtles is actually clever, when you think that they already had previous names in this version. After all, why would Splinter name them again then?

[azrael]

Well maybe he can put pen to paper and finish vol 4. I have been enjoying IDW, its different than mirage and thats why I like it. I love mirage and image's vol but IDW has a different kind of spirit about it.

I hope that fire gets reignited in Peter from drinking with friends, breaking in a hotel room, having fun with the TMNT again. I feel bad he is so resentful when it comes to the TMNT. He may need someone to talk to about these feelings, no reason to be a grumpy old man. Or maybe he needs a reality check all the people he inspired, all the books that ripped their idea off, the merchandise, the kids that grew up with the TMNT, the reason he doesnt have to struggle, the reason his family is comfortable.

I love their story (pl and ke) I would love to sit and chill I offereed PL free tickets to where I work and a discount on a hotel inside my jurisdiction. As a thank you for the inspiration and TMNT.

[Noah13]

Well maybe he can put pen to paper and finish vol 4. I have been enjoying IDW, its different than mirage and thats why I like it. I love mirage and image's vol but IDW has a different kind of spirit about it.

I hope that fire gets reignited in Peter from drinking with friends, breaking in a hotel room, having fun with the TMNT again. I feel bad he is so resentful when it comes to the TMNT. He may need someone to talk to about these feelings, no reason to be a grumpy old man. Or maybe he needs a reality check all the people he inspired, all the books that ripped their idea off, the merchandise, the kids that grew up with the TMNT, the reason he doesnt have to struggle, the reason his family is comfortable.

I love their story (pl and ke) I would love to sit and chill I offereed PL free tickets to where I work and a discount on a hotel inside my jurisdiction. As a thank you for the inspiration and TMNT.

Agreed! However, he has said many times now that he has no plans to finish Vol. 4 at the moment. Looks like we have a long wait ahead of ourselves

[Jester]

April naming the Turtles is actually clever, when you think that they already had previous names in this version. After all, why would Splinter name them again then?
Actually, when you put it that way, it makes the "Renaissance artists" names unnecessary. The Turtles and Splinter are, for all intents and purposes, Hamato Yoshi and his sons. Why, just because they are mutant animals now, do they have to have "cool super hero code names"?

[Toby Barrett]

They're starting new lives, and there may be a reincarnated Oroku Saki running around New York somewhere?

[Hermano Dyvas]

Actually, when you put it that way, it makes the "Renaissance artists" names unnecessary. The Turtles and Splinter are, for all intents and purposes, Hamato Yoshi and his sons. Why, just because they are mutant animals now, do they have to have "cool super hero code names"?

While there's no reason Splinter couldn't have given them back their old names there also isn't a reason for Splinter not to go with the new names he and the turtles received in the lab. Either choice makes sense to me.

For the record, I wouldn't exactly call renaissance artist names "cool super hero code names".

[Jester]

For the record, I wouldn't exactly call renaissance artist names "cool super hero code names".
True, but I was primarily just saying they weren't their "real names" but kinda like "Wolverine" or "Storm".

[Kid Icarus]

I find it hilarious that anyone would come close to calling the IDW series slow, especially compared with Mirage Vol 4.

[Andrew NDB]

I find it hilarious that anyone would come close to calling the IDW series slow, especially compared with Mirage Vol 4.

While true, it'd be pretty weird to compare the tail end series of one version to the beginning series of a new version.

[CyberCubed]

While true, it'd be pretty weird to compare the tail end series of one version to the beginning series of a new version.

And since it's the beginning it means the best is yet to come. Vol. 4 was pretty much just extra stories after Splinter's death.

It allowed us to see 30 year old mutant Turtles but that's about it.

[Jester]

And since it's the beginning it means the best is yet to come. Vol. 4 was pretty much just extra stories after Splinter's death.

It allowed us to see 30 year old mutant Turtles but that's about it.
I think the biggest issue with Volume 4 is all the Turtles were on separate adventures. There were way too many concurrent stories to keep track of.

[Andrew NDB]

Still, I have to believe the plan was always to eventually converge them in some grand, hopefully satisfying fashion at/by the end of it all.

[Jester]

Still, I have to believe the plan was always to eventually converge them in some grand, hopefully satisfying fashion at/by the end of it all.
Oh definitely.

[Leo656]

I haven't read enough of the new book to have a worthy opinion, but one thing I can tell everyone to save them a lot of mixed feelings and aggravation: Don't read comics month-to-month, ANY comics, either wait for the trade or save up 4-6 issue chunks and read 'em all at once. It took me most of the last decade to figure out that it's super-rare for any book to be enjoyable in bite-sized chunks anymore, because everyone writes to the TPB. There were a ton of stories I've read that I hated as I read each issue, but as an arc fell in love with later on. It's much easier to make an informed opinion, and a lot less stressful overall.

As for Laird, again, no room to agree or disagree about the new book, but there is one thing I'm almost 100% positive about, and it has a lot to do with my opinions about him in general. I'm almost positive that he never thought he would be, or wanted to be, any kind of commercially successful artist. And quite frankly, people like that annoy the sh*t out of me. People who are the extremely rare few, who are not only good at something, but lucky enough to be recognized for it and praised for it, to the point that people throw mountains at money at them. This allows them a lifestyle and level of comfort that their peers, as well as 99% of the human population, will never know. So of course, they come to resent their wealth and notoriety, and start wishing they'd never gone down that path.

I know money can't buy happiness, but truthfully? Cry me a f***ing river. I'm not going off of what Laird allegedly said about wishing he hadn't created TMNT, because I never read that, I'm just going off the fact that it's always seemed like Laird secretly didn't like TMNT, just like George Reeves secretly thought being Superman was what kept him from being a successful Hollywood star. I think Pete honestly either never wanted to be rich and famous, OR he did but secretly wished it was as a big-time director or screenwriter, not for something he threw together as a joke when he was a kid smoking weed with his buddies in their art studio. Part of me thinks Laird wanted to be famous for writing the next Star Wars or Star Trek, "and I would've gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for those blasted Turtles!"

But part of me thinks he's just one of those "art for art's sake" types who never figured out they're working in a commercial medium, like Kurt Cobain or something. I love Kurt, generally speaking, but I never bought all that BS about NOT wanting to be rich, famous, etc. Here's the simple truth: If you create anything artistic, and you don't want it publicized, scrutinized, plagiarized and vandalized, keep it in your freakin' head and stay in the damn garage. You can't be in a band that sells a million records and then bitch about "the industry", and you can't create a comic book of all things and then cry for 20 years aboiut how the cartoon/movie studios raped your baby. It doesn't work that way. You accept that inevitability the day you print your first promo flyer and cash your first check, you are losing a part of your creation in exchange for getting paid, you don't have the right to complain because someone else does something different from how you would have done it, you gave that away because you wanted to eat, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. But I always think Peter thinks he "sold out" to "the man" and wishes he hadn't, and since I freakin' *wish* I'd been the one to create TMNT, or could even have any hand in working on them at all, it bugs me that he feels that way.

If he DID say he almost wishes he never created TMNT... that's pretty unforgiveable, seeing how much joy they've brought so many people. If he would undo that over some colored bandanas and a mutant rhino, then he's the one who doesn't get it. I think he sold them off because he finally realized he never did "get it", and never will. Shame.

[CyberCubed]

Makes you wonder why he tried to bring TMNT back in the 2000's then. He didn't have to create Volume 4 or the new Tales, and he didn't have to work with the writers for the 4kids series either.

He clearly wanted to revive the Turtles in the 2000's and he did that, with new comics, a cartoon, and even a new movie. I don't see why he would do that if he didn't care.

Or perhaps early 2000's PL is a lot different than 2009-2012 PL.

[Andrew NDB]

I don't like to speculate on it too much. It's clearly very personal, and there's so much we don't know of what was going on in the day-to-day.

[Powder]

I haven't read enough of the new book to have a worthy opinion, but one thing I can tell everyone to save them a lot of mixed feelings and aggravation: Don't read comics month-to-month, ANY comics, either wait for the trade or save up 4-6 issue chunks and read 'em all at once. It took me most of the last decade to figure out that it's super-rare for any book to be enjoyable in bite-sized chunks anymore, because everyone writes to the TPB. There were a ton of stories I've read that I hated as I read each issue, but as an arc fell in love with later on. It's much easier to make an informed opinion, and a lot less stressful overall.


I would agree in regards to the new turtle book, but Ghostbusters & Megaman are both enjoyable & fulfilling monthly.

[oldmanwinters]

Ghostbusters & Megaman are both enjoyable & fulfilling monthly.

Amen to that!

[marcelangelo]

maybe the problem with it is also found in ourselves to some part...it seems we always want to judge something right away..I mean if you cannot wait four or five months till something progresses naturally than it is also a problem of you as a reader insisting on that opportunity to be able to tell right away what you make of this book...
the problem I see with a plan like WAITING for the trades or buying eventually a whole stack of those comics is that it might not get to that point at all as the lack of success of individual issues does close the gates to a possible future trade paperback collection of these comics...

I think with peter most of you are to harsh here, true his words can provoke irritation in a fans mind given the fact that we just love that franchise and what it did to all our lives...but as andrew hinted at(I think you're right here) I suspect we don't even know the half of what it meant to handle something as unique as this property during all thus time...maybe with the turtledoc out someday we will get another glimpse at it but I think just pete and kev can really tell and to have undergone all this for all these years at least to me I think they have earned their right to say anything that they want about the very things that they created themselves...also, think about it this way maybe:he didn't post something aline 'I wish I had never cocreated the turtles' but he did reply to an interesting hypothetical question and brought into consideration a pile of arguments that could influence his decision on that matter...its just q and a for god's sake;)

[Dovahkiin]

Its quite obvious Old Hob is in the series for the long haul. I truly expect him to go rogue and betray Baxter and/or Krang.



April naming the Turtles is actually clever, when you think that they already had previous names in this version. After all, why would Splinter name them again then?


Is the ooze that created the turtles different from what Baxter used on Hob? I'm not sure 'cause I only have a few issues that are spaced apart in the storyline.

Splinter had a mind of a rat when April named the turtles so he would not be able to remember. Splinter would rename the turtles, names chosen by him and not April's selection of names. The act of naming something or someone is the beginning of emotional attachment to it, attachments only felt by the one who gave the name. Since April gave the names the attachment is with her and not with Splinter.

lol all this reminds me of The Neverending story were the kid had to give that girl a new name before the nothing consumes her.

[Jester]

Is the ooze that created the turtles different from what Baxter used on Hob? I'm not sure 'cause I only have a few issues that are spaced apart in the storyline.
No, Hob was mutated in the same mutagen spill as the Turtles and Splinter.
Splinter had a mind of a rat when April named the turtles so he would not be able to remember. Splinter would rename the turtles, names chosen by him and not April's selection of names. The act of naming something or someone is the beginning of emotional attachment to it, attachments only felt by the one who gave the name. Since April gave the names the attachment is with her and not with Splinter.
Splinter was more than a mere rat even before the mutation (wow, Kevin and Tom must have decided to run with that unused Mirage tidbit.) He was used in psychotropic drug tests, which not only helped him remember his past life as Hamato Yoshi, but also helped him reason enough to save the Turtles and April from the Foot. In fact it may be those drugs that make the difference between Splinter remembering the past life and the Turtles not.

[ZariusTwo]

And since it's the beginning it means the best is yet to come.

Rubbish. It's telling the same old s*it again, same wall, new coat of paint. Give me the TRUE continuity anyday.

Vol. 4 was pretty much just extra stories after Splinter's death.

It allowed us to see 30 year old mutant Turtles but that's about it.

Not really. V4 also showed us April's origin, incorporated the Battle Nexus into canon, was giving us more insight into Karai's descent etc.

The Turtles lives are not defined by that bloody rat. There are still interesting stories to tell

[CyberCubed]

The stories after Splinter's death were largely self contained plots stretched out over 20 issues:

- Donatello gets shrunken by some left-behind Utroms from the TCRI building, and the mutagen makes lizards into somewhat intelligent beings. It was a decent story for what it was, but it could have been told in one or two Tales of the TMNT issues.

- Raphael gets bitten by vampires and mutates...nearly kills Raptaar and Fugitoid, and fights with Leatherhead...after Raph regains conscienceness they arrest the vampires. Again...could have been done in two issues.

- Michelangelo flirts with Regenta, kidnapped and taken to prison, escapes with the help of Triceratons and now wants revenge on Regenta. This was a better plotline we may never seen unfold.

- Leonardo travels to the Battle nexus to find out why warriors were killing Foot. He sees an alternate Shredder and we know there's an alternate Splinter.


These 4 stories were stretched out over 20 issues when they're really no more than 3-4 part stories at most.

[ToTheNines]

Rubbish. It's telling the same old s*it again, same wall, new coat of paint.

You are a miserable little man.

V4 also showed us April's origin

Because everyone was totally wondering where April came from before volume 4 right?

incorporated the Battle Nexus into canon

Into Mirage canon.

[azrael]

These 4 stories were stretched out over 20 issues when they're really no more than 3-4 part stories at most.

Since splnter's death was in issue 11 that leaves 19 comics

4*4=16

plus you had april's origin so there have been to extra issues to add to the experience, this was not an action comic vol4 is a comic about freedom, own path's, and full circles.

btw any story can be condenced

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

- Leonardo travels to the Battle nexus to find out why warriors were killing Foot. He sees an alternate Shredder and we know there's an alternate Splinter.

So Battle Nexus is now in the Mirage-Tales of the TMNT universe? I never liked Battle Nexus at all, prefer the Stump's Asteroid better.

[plastroncafe]

The only usable information we got out of April's V4 origin tale was the confirmation that Laird has difficulty writing female characters.

[Oculus Orbus]

Say what you will guys, but I love Vol. 4 and enjoyed every single issue of it. I hope we see an ending some day.

[azrael]

Say what you will guys, but I love Vol. 4 and enjoyed every single issue of it. I hope we see an ending some day.

agreed reading them all back to back is a lot better than waiting inbetween each issue.

[King Suck]

Say what you will guys, but I love Vol. 4 and enjoyed every single issue of it. I hope we see an ending some day.

Agreed. It wasn't my favorite by any means but I remember at the time finding them an enjoyable read.

Im not gonna psychoanalyze PLs comments. PL put in The back door deal with Viacom for him to continue publishing TMNT for a reason. Even if its just a one shot Im hoping we haven't seen the last of Lairds TMNT.

[CyberCubed]

Rubbish. It's telling the same old s*it again, same wall, new coat of paint. Give me the TRUE continuity anyday.

And that's why we're sitting here twiddling our thumbs because Peter Laird is still disinterested in continuing Volume 4.

The Mirage run had 25 years. That was a long time. If anything I am surprised we never had any real reboot until now.

After 25 years of Mirage, and now that Nick owns TMNT, its only natural the comics had their first true reboot. And I'll say it again, once IDW has enough issues under their belt, this series will probably be as loved as the Archie series was.

[Andrew NDB]

After 25 years of Mirage, and now that Nick owns TMNT, its only natural the comics had their first true reboot. And I'll say it again, once IDW has enough issues under their belt, this series will probably be as loved as the Archie series was.

Eh, that doesn't really compute -- IDW isn't a reboot anymore than the Archie series or Dreamwave series was a reboot of the Mirage series.

Different universes, different publishers, even different rights holders now... though even that isn't so black and white with Peter still holding onto the 18 comics a year clause. For all we know IDW could be chugging along at issue #45 and oh, here comes Peter Laird dropping Volume 4, #31, #32, and #33 on us out of nowhere.

I'm not saying that's going to happen... but it could.

[CyberCubed]

Very true, but for all intents and purposes the IDW series is a reboot aimed at the same market the Mirage series was. Its not like this is a comic based on the Nick cartoon, (which we'll apparently be getting at some point), or like what Archie was...its pretty much intended to be a new take on the Mirage material while also taking some cues from the cartoons.

And even if PL continues Vol. 4...he said it'll be no more than 6 issues. Considering his disinterest, it'll be a miracle if we even get 6 more issues out of him.

Of course its possible IDW could publish stand-alone specials that take place in the Mirage universe too, but I kinda see that as unlikely. Maybe if Tristan can finish his Gang Wars story, but that's as far as I see it going.

[Dovahkiin]

No, Hob was mutated in the same mutagen spill as the Turtles and Splinter.

Splinter was more than a mere rat even before the mutation (wow, Kevin and Tom must have decided to run with that unused Mirage tidbit.) He was used in psychotropic drug tests, which not only helped him remember his past life as Hamato Yoshi, but also helped him reason enough to save the Turtles and April from the Foot. In fact it may be those drugs that make the difference between Splinter remembering the past life and the Turtles not.
Okay, I haven't read all of it because I only have a few issues due to the fact I live in an isolated place.

--Many ideas in the IDW reboot still doesn't make sense and the reasons behind it are very poor in quality.

[TristanHuwJones]

I'd be more inclined to call it a new take on the Turtles, full-stop. They aren't necessarily taking cues from a particular source. They're just telling stories they dig with influence coming from all available sources.

[Plasticplayhouse]

And that's why we're sitting here twiddling our thumbs because Peter Laird is still disinterested in continuing Volume 4.


I'm confident that pete still has love for the turtles and at some point he will put pen to paper again.

None of us really have any clue what trials and tribulations pete and Kevin have been through during their journey. I can't fathom what the heck I would do if something I started "just for fun", grew legs, then wheels, then twin turbines and took off to heights that I barely even dreamed of. I can only make guesses to what kind of pressures and problems a situation like that can bring. I don’t fault peter at all for feeling the way he does. Yeah it doesn’t give me the warm fuzzies, but hey, he's the one who lived it and he has the right to feel the way he does. Heavy is the head that wears the crown as they say. kevin got burned out early on, took several years off to do projects that were more personally fulfilling and recently came back to the turtles with new-found vigor. After 25+ years of wearing that crown, pete needs that time too. He specifically mentioned something in his blog to the affect of him not achieving the level of artistry he thought he would have by this point in his life. Like many of us, I'm sure he too has many dreams. He just needs time to explore other passions. At some point the spark/love he had for the turtles will be rejuvenated and he'll be back in some fashion. It may be another 5, 10, or even 15 years, but it will happen. Once you genuinely love something, that love never goes away. It may fade quite a bit at times, but the seed remains.

[marcelangelo]

plasticplahouse, you speak my mind...I couldn't wordsmith it better;)...some of the same things I said a page before here but nobody commented anything so maybe we are the only two who feel this way, but that's enough for me...

[CyberCubed]

I'm confident that pete still has love for the turtles and at some point he will put pen to paper again.

I had always hoped that when the IDW/Nick era started it would cause some "rivalry" with PL, and he'd feel compelled to continue Vol. 4 to show what *his* view of the Turtles are like.

Imagine if we got new comics coming from Mirage and IDW at the same time? It'd be awesome.

Maybe in the next full years after the IDW comics and Nick cartoon are in full swing, PL will say, "This is not the way I would do things," and he'd feel "compelled" to finish Volume 4 to show his view of the series.

[Sophie Campbell]

i wouldn't blame Laird at all for never coming back to TMNT, i can't even imagine what it must be like for him. why the hell would he want to work on that stuff again at this point? it's easy for us fans to be puzzled by that, like how could he NOT love TMNT as much as we do, but nobody has lived and breathed Turtles like Laird and Eastman have, i can't even fathom what it's like.

can you imagine working on the same characters for over 25 years, but not actually drawing many comics about them and developing them, but rather managing a merchandising empire? at least with guys like Stan Sakai, it's still him doing the comic himself, it's still personal.

i always think about don't Eastman & Laird have other stories and ideas they want to do? even if they did, would people keep demanding more Turtles from them? it seems all-consuming to me, i'm not surprised at all that Laird says he might like to go back in time or whatever to prevent TMNT's creation, he does seem like TMNT has hollowed him out or something which isn't surprising, especially after reading stuff like Kevin Eastman's 1998 Comics Journal interview where he talks about how things were like in those earlier days. it wasn't about the characters and fun anymore. i feel smothered just thinking about it.

i hope Laird's batteries recharge and he does some new non-Turtles stuff. i know he's got other ideas and stories in him. i respect him as a creator so i want him to do what he wants to do, but i almost hope he never returns to Turtles and instead breaks free with new characters and ideas.

[CyberCubed]

i wouldn't blame Laird at all for never coming back to TMNT, i can't even imagine what it must be like for him. why the hell would he want to work on that stuff again at this point? it's easy for us fans to be puzzled by that, like how could he NOT love TMNT as much as we do, but nobody has lived and breathed Turtles like Laird and Eastman have, i can't even fathom what it's like.

Then why exactly did he revive it in the 2000's? Starting Volume 4, restarting Tales, making a deal with 4kids to produce a new cartoon, a new toyline, etc.

Peter Laird clearly wanted to bring the Turtles back in 2001 after their initial "death" back in the mid-90's. And he did so because he still liked the franchise.

[rufus]

The 2003 Cartoon could have been an attempt to show the Turtles as more than how they are remembered from the FW series?

[Sophie Campbell]

Then why exactly did he revive it in the 2000's? Starting Volume 4, restarting Tales, making a deal with 4kids to produce a new cartoon, a new toyline, etc.

Peter Laird clearly wanted to bring the Turtles back in 2001 after their initial "death" back in the mid-90's. And he did so because he still liked the franchise.

he revived TMNT because he wanted to, obviously, but 2001 was over a decade ago and maybe he had the re-ignited fire for it when he started but i think was pretty clear he lost it as the years went by. 10 years is a long time for feelings to change. maybe he'll be back someday, who knows, all i'm saying is that right now he's seriously burned out.

[Samhain]

10 years is a long time for feelings to change.

Which is why I think he just needs some time away from the franchise. He'll be back. It worked for Kevin and I'm sure it'll be the same for Peter.

[Konchadunga]

"Money can't buy happiness" is one of the single stupidest fallacies I have ever heard. It's a simple truth of market economics that if something makes people happy, a pricetag will be placed on it, and if Peter Laird didn't believe this, he wouldn't have exchanged such a potentially lovable property for money.

Still, the more I read from Laird, be it his digs at changes made to his creation, his unnecessarily rude comments exposed in the 2003 series production notes, or the reviews on his blog--not one of which, from what I've seen, is positive--the more it seems like he's just become a perpetually unhappy man. He vented about his disdain for what the OT did to his creation when he was perfectly capable of stepping in to improve it instead, and then when he did take a proactive role in steering the 4Kids series, it seems to have become an albatross for him and made him resent the franchise as a whole.

In many ways, selling the license was a smart move on his part; realizing he no longer cared to hold the torch so he passed it to someone who did. Yet it seems hypocritical to complain about an adaptation changing things for change's sake when he no longer cares enough about his original vision to work on it. Another issue is that the way he arranged the deal, he retained some rights to the turtles, but Mirage did not; so any of the staff who cared more about it can't do anything.

Furthermore, I don't think it's an unusual opinion that change for change's sake is exactly what adaptations should do. Otherwise, what would be the incentive to experience them?

[Spitfire]

He essentially feels exactly the same way I do about them. Good to know even one of the TMNT co-creators isn't saying it's awesome out of some misplaced responsibility.

[CyberCubed]

he revived TMNT because he wanted to, obviously, but 2001 was over a decade ago and maybe he had the re-ignited fire for it when he started but i think was pretty clear he lost it as the years went by. 10 years is a long time for feelings to change. maybe he'll be back someday, who knows, all i'm saying is that right now he's seriously burned out.

Isn't Peter Laird 56 now? So back in 2001 he was 46...I suppose he had more energy to invest himself in the franchise back then.

I mean the guy is nearly 60 years old now for goodness sakes.

[FearlessLeader]

I like how a majority of this thread has degraded down to people judging Peter for his personal life and choices. People seem to be forgetting he didn't decide to tell us his opinions on these things as a lark. He was kind enough to honestly and frankly answer people's questions when they were posed to him.

I don't agree with everything that he's said, but I certainly recognize that he doesn't have to take the time out of his life in order to share these things with us. Peter doesn't have a say almost at all in the franchise anymore, if you don't like his opinion just move on.

[CyberCubed]

I like how a majority of this thread has degraded down to people judging Peter for his personal life and choices. People seem to be forgetting he didn't decide to tell us his opinions on these things as a lark. He was kind enough to honestly and frankly answer people's questions when they were posed to him.

I think people are fine with him not wanting anything to do with the franchise anymore. I think what people found a bit unnerving is he said if he could go back in time, he would "almost certainly" stop it all from happening.

Its one thing to want to distance yourself from your own creation, but if given the possibility to go back in time and erase it all from existence? Really strange.

[FearlessLeader]

I think people are fine with him not wanting anything to do with the franchise anymore. I think what people found a bit unnerving is he said if he could go back in time, he would "almost certainly" stop it all from happening.

Its one thing to want to distance yourself from your own creation, but if given the possibility to go back in time and erase it all from existence? Really strange.

Considering time machines are not real and this is never going to happen, I think people need to just realize Peter is a grown man with his own opinions and all of us complaining about them on a message board is probably part of the reason he is burnt out on the fandom in the first place.

And for the record, I was very off put when he first said that myself and then I realized his opinion doesn't change what Turtles means to me and I shouldn't really dwell on it.

I know this is kind of a pipe dream for any fandom, but I kind of wish we could shed this "let's dwell on and over analyze any negative thing we can find". We have so much good stuff happening right now with Turtles with more and more showing up everyday.

We should be happy as a collective unit right now, at least in my opinion.

[CyberCubed]

Well as for the IDW series its fairly entertaining so far, but its obvious the best is (hopefully) yet to come. I guess its taking them awhile to get through all the set-up.

Hopefully after the first Foot fight, April meets the Turtles, and Shredder/Krang get a full debut, the series can finally kick off.

[Sophie Campbell]

i mostly agree with FearlessLeader on this one, i was taken aback too at first by Laird's time machine comment, but at the same time he's lived the Turtles in a way none of us can understand. he's gotta do what he's gotta do and it doesn't have to affect how you feel or engage with TMNT.

have any of you guys read Kevin Eastman's super long interview in the Comics Journal from 1998, 2 years before he sold his share of TMNT? it really sheds a light on how a lot of the daily TMNT-running was, and a lot of it sounds like a friggin' nightmare. it's easy for us to have fun with the Turtles and everything and be fans, but for the creators it's a whole different ballgame. i just think they deserve the respect that other artists get when they want to move on or when they express clashing opinions or whatever, instead of trying to lay blame on them for "abandoning" the Turtles or something. if you really respect Eastman and Laird as artists/creators then you have to afford them that space.

PS: FearlessLeader, love your signature tag image!! it's an honor, thank you! i'm really glad you dig my cover. :)

[Andrew NDB]

have any of you guys read Kevin Eastman's super long interview in the Comics Journal from 1998, 2 years before he sold his share of TMNT? it really sheds a light on how a lot of the daily TMNT-running was, and a lot of it sounds like a friggin' nightmare. it's easy for us to have fun with the Turtles and everything and be fans, but for the creators it's a whole different ballgame. i just think they deserve the respect that other artists get when they want to move on or when they express clashing opinions or whatever, instead of trying to lay blame on them for "abandoning" the Turtles or something. if you really respect Eastman and Laird as artists/creators then you have to afford them that space.

Wholeheartedly agreed.

[marcelangelo]

I agree with all three of you andrew, fearlessleader and mooncalf...great that can see it this way...give the man some peace...and good thing you pointed out the fact that we should indeed enjoy all the things turtles that are happening at the moment all around us...it's pretty wild, sin't it?I cannot remember a time since the ot when THAT much was in progress with our favourite comic characters!...sometimes I have to step back when I see all these beautiful variant art, upcomming toys, movie pre production(okay, that's still to come), collected books and interviews about the turtles and do a quick reality check;)

[ZariusTwo]

he revived TMNT because he wanted to, obviously, but 2001 was over a decade ago and maybe he had the re-ignited fire for it when he started but i think was pretty clear he lost it as the years went by. 10 years is a long time for feelings to change. maybe he'll be back someday, who knows, all i'm saying is that right now he's seriously burned out.

Laird was bombarded by ungrateful fan criticism for much of V4's run, he also had pollitical views that angered several readers and they picked on him for that also. Such negativity would drive anyone to tire of trying to please such ungrateful pricks.

[ToTheNines]

Such negativity would drive anyone to tire of trying to please such ungrateful pricks.

:lol:

Holy sh*t, I'm glad you got un-banned.

[AquaParade]

http://www.tcj.com/the-kevin-eastman-interview-part-i/eastman15a/

There's the interview in which Kevin dishes on the days of Mirage. Pretty sure it was mentioned in this tread. Very interesting read. Now this must be the kind of stuff they have been integrating into that TMNT documentary.

[FearlessLeader]

PS: FearlessLeader, love your signature tag image!! it's an honor, thank you! i'm really glad you dig my cover. :)

Geez it should be me thanking you!

I have admired your work with the guys since you did the Raphael mini-series covers back for Mirage. Leo being my favorite I have to admit I was extra thrilled when it was announced you were doing his micro-issue.

I haven't been this excited for a comic in a long time! :tgrin:

[Hermano Dyvas]

Hey, so what if he doesn't like it? He has a right to. In his place I probably wouldn't like what others would do to my own creation either, making the changes that IDW does. What matters is, so far I like it, in the end that's the only thing that matters :)

Thank you mr Laird, for creating the TMNT. I understand the viewpoint about wanting to uncreate them, it doesn't change me being a fan. I wish him the best of luck with his future endeavors.

[Konchadunga]

Considering time machines are not real and this is never going to happen, I think people need to just realize Peter is a grown man with his own opinions and all of us complaining about them on a message board is probably part of the reason he is burnt out on the fandom in the first place.


I'd like to remind you, though, that Peter didn't need a time machine to squat on the franchise for ten years and slap everything in it around with his "my way or the highway" attitude, scaring away a lot of the old fanbase in the process. Don't get me wrong; I like the 4Kids series. I even like it better than the OT. (Though rewatching the 4Kids series as an adult, I notice some problems I didn't before, while rewatching the OT I notice some virtues I didn't before.) Yet it took a while for me to give it a chance at first, because it was so different. The episode that won me over was "The King," because it was the same plot as a beloved storybook I had as a kid, made during the run of the OT. (Both were based on Mirage's Donatello miniseries, though I didn't know it at the time.) Many people, though, never had that in. For most of them, the show just didn't feel like TMNT as they knew it.

I feel the first movie was very successful partially because it was effective in bridging the gap between the OT and the comics; Laird never considered such pragmatism for the 4Kids show. Also, while I could understand why he wouldn't want to bring in any elements of the OT at first, at the time when the show was mostly an adaptation of the comics, by the time the show was abandoning any pretense of respecting the source material that attitude started to feel hypocritical. Reviving Mikey's pizza obsession would have been an easy way to extend a laurel, at the cost of being maybe just a little annoying. Writing him with a new obsession with being the Battle Nexus Champion wound up making him intensely annoying to a lot of the show's existing viewers. Adding OT characters like Rocksteady and Bebop would have probably attracted more viewers to the show; adding some original characters like Cody turned a lot of existing viewers off of it.

When you add to that, Peter's reprehensibly rude commentary to the staff of the show (in his defense, 4Kids certainly has a history of screwing up what they adapt, so maybe they did make a lot of mistakes, but if any employee ever got me to the point of saying some of the rude stuff Peter said to his; I'd just fire that employee), I start to resent Peter's time ruling the franchise. It was too authoritarian, too finicky, and ultimately, too egotistical; the legacy of a man who believed he was fighting for good ideas against bad ideas, but was often really fighting for his ideas against everyone else's.

So even if he can't really take a time machine and prevent our beloved franchise from existing, it still sounds like one more butthurt expression of "If I can't have my franchise, nobody else can either." I think it's high time Laird learn that not every change made to his series for the worse, and if he really has those objectionable opinions, he might do himself a favor by remaining silent about them.

[FearlessLeader]

I'd like to remind you, though, that Peter didn't need a time machine to squat on the franchise for ten years and slap everything in it around with his "my way or the highway" attitude, scaring away a lot of the old fanbase in the process. Don't get me wrong; I like the 4Kids series. I even like it better than the OT. (Though rewatching the 4Kids series as an adult, I notice some problems I didn't before, while rewatching the OT I notice some virtues I didn't before.) Yet it took a while for me to give it a chance at first, because it was so different. The episode that won me over was "The King," because it was the same plot as a beloved storybook I had as a kid, made during the run of the OT. (Both were based on Mirage's Donatello miniseries, though I didn't know it at the time.) Many people, though, never had that in. For most of them, the show just didn't feel like TMNT as they knew it.

I feel the first movie was very successful partially because it was effective in bridging the gap between the OT and the comics; Laird never considered such pragmatism for the 4Kids show. Also, while I could understand why he wouldn't want to bring in any elements of the OT at first, at the time when the show was mostly an adaptation of the comics, by the time the show was abandoning any pretense of respecting the source material that attitude started to feel hypocritical. Reviving Mikey's pizza obsession would have been an easy way to extend a laurel, at the cost of being maybe just a little annoying. Writing him with a new obsession with being the Battle Nexus Champion wound up making him intensely annoying to a lot of the show's existing viewers. Adding OT characters like Rocksteady and Bebop would have probably attracted more viewers to the show; adding some original characters like Cody turned a lot of existing viewers off of it.

When you add to that, Peter's reprehensibly rude commentary to the staff of the show (in his defense, 4Kids certainly has a history of screwing up what they adapt, so maybe they did make a lot of mistakes, but if any employee ever got me to the point of saying some of the rude stuff Peter said to his; I'd just fire that employee), I start to resent Peter's time ruling the franchise. It was too authoritarian, too finicky, and ultimately, too egotistical; the legacy of a man who believed he was fighting for good ideas against bad ideas, but was often really fighting for his ideas against everyone else's.

So even if he can't really take a time machine and prevent our beloved franchise from existing, it still sounds like one more butthurt expression of "If I can't have my franchise, nobody else can either." I think it's high time Laird learn that not every change made to his series for the worse, and if he really has those objectionable opinions, he might do himself a favor by remaining silent about them.

I am honestly sitting here dumbfounded by you.

Peter created the Turtles he was perfectly within his rights to have any expectation about the franchise that he wanted while he was controlling it. I'm sorry this seems to personally offend you in some way, but I am rather clueless why you are so angry here?

Peter didn't scare any of the fan base away. We like Turtles for the Turtles not for Pete, pretty much the same people are here that were here before the start of the 2003 cartoon. If you mean he did something different with that cartoon and it didn't appeal to the people that loved the OT well that's too bad. I liked it because it was different and more like the comic books. I'm sorry that he didn't include characters you think should have been included and I'm sorry that as Peter got more busy with the 2007 movie and other aspects of the franchise towards the end of the cartoon run that he probably wasn't controlling the content of the show AS heavily (hence Cody Jones and pizza humor). I'm sorry that you don't like the way he ran things, but he doesn't anymore so you don't have to worry.

Also I'm sorry you didn't like the way he treated the employees at 4Kids, but they were professional writers, I have to take flack from people I don't even know for errors in fan fictions I write and I am not even getting paid and some of them are WAY ruder then Pete ever was. It's the nature of business. I am also pretty certain Pete didn't have control to hire or fire people at 4Kids.

I think it would benefit you to be able to walk a few steps in someone else's shoes before frankly you make such harsh judgements about someone you don't even know. Unless you were at Mirage Studios daily during the 2000's you really don't know what Pete's life was like nor what stresses he was putting up with, nor how much heart he put into the projects he choose.

I see you like me and Peter are from America. We live in a Country that allows free speech so much like you can proudly post your rant above for all of us to read, Peter is very much allowed to write pretty much whatever he wants on his blog. I suggest if it bothers you this much maybe you should stop reading it and focus your attention elsewhere on the fandom on something that will make you happier.

[Master Splinter]

I'd like to remind you, though, that Peter didn't need a time machine to squat on the franchise for ten years and slap everything in it around with his "my way or the highway" attitude...

XVCtkzIXYzQ

-ms

[Jephael]

I was very off put when he first said that myself and then I realized his opinion doesn't change what Turtles means to me and I shouldn't really dwell on it.

I know this is kind of a pipe dream for any fandom, but I kind of wish we could shed this "let's dwell on and over analyze any negative thing we can find". We have so much good stuff happening right now with Turtles with more and more showing up everyday.

We should be happy as a collective unit right now, at least in my opinion.

I totally agree. Who cares if Peter doesn't want to involve himself with the TMNT? It's his loss!

[Andrew NDB]

A little more from Peter on IDW:

"Not really knowing anything about this new "Krang", I won't venture an opinion.

[on April naming the Turtles] This is one of the things which I think gives this new comic series a significantly different "feel" than the original TMNT stories that Kevin and I created. There seems to be more trying to make things seem -- I don't know -- "realistic"? Like it's easier to buy a human female naming turtles after Renaissance artists than a mutated rat. There seems to be less acceptance of some of the ofttimes whimsical nature of what Kevin and I did… and I find the result somewhat lacking.

[about the reincarnation angle] It does nothing for me, and in fact seems emblematic of a trend -- to make things bigger and more "meaningful" than they really need to be -- that I see in modern comics, especially in new "takes" on established characters. I was just reading something online recently about someone remaking the origin of Spider-Man, I think, so that instead of just being a kid who is transformed by the bite of a radioactive spider, he's actually the latest incarnation of some spider deity or something (sorry if I am messing this up -- I just quickly read the piece and don't remember where to find it again). I think it kind of started with Alan Moore when he reinvented "Swamp Thing" and turned him into a "plant elemental". That worked pretty well, but the problem is most writers aren't as brilliant as Alan Moore often is.

I also feel that it diminishes the characters of the Turtles and Splinter… like they can't be who they ARE, they have to be like someone else WAS.

And finally, one of the things about the way we created the Turtles that I always liked was the random, accidental nature of it. For some reason, I find that appealing (possibly because the origin of the Turtles sort of mirrors the creation of that first TMNT comic itself!)… and it's why whenever a new project would come up and someone would suggest redoing the origin of the Turtles and almost inevitably start with "See, there's this firm that's working on genetic engineering, and they take these turtles and -- ", I would shoot that down right away. It always felt so boring to me, so hackneyed. So obvious.

Now, I say all of the above with this caveat: I have not read all of the IDW TMNT comics. I think someday I will, in collected form, so that I can read a bunch of them all at once, conveniently. Maybe after I've done that, I will change my mind. Not likely, but possible. -- PL"

[Oculus Orbus]

[about the reincarnation angle] It does nothing for me, and in fact seems emblematic of a trend -- to make things bigger and more "meaningful" than they really need to be -- that I see in modern comics, especially in new "takes" on established characters. I was just reading something online recently about someone remaking the origin of Spider-Man, I think, so that instead of just being a kid who is transformed by the bite of a radioactive spider, he's actually the latest incarnation of some spider deity or something (sorry if I am messing this up -- I just quickly read the piece and don't remember where to find it again). I think it kind of started with Alan Moore when he reinvented "Swamp Thing" and turned him into a "plant elemental". That worked pretty well, but the problem is most writers aren't as brilliant as Alan Moore often is.

I also feel that it diminishes the characters of the Turtles and Splinter… like they can't be who they ARE, they have to be like someone else WAS.

And finally, one of the things about the way we created the Turtles that I always liked was the random, accidental nature of it. For some reason, I find that appealing (possibly because the origin of the Turtles sort of mirrors the creation of that first TMNT comic itself!)… and it's why whenever a new project would come up and someone would suggest redoing the origin of the Turtles and almost inevitably start with "See, there's this firm that's working on genetic engineering, and they take these turtles and -- ", I would shoot that down right away. It always felt so boring to me, so hackneyed. So obvious.

Wow, now that's exactly how I feel about the whole reincarnation thing. It has changed the Turtles so deeply, they're no longer an accident, but something that was "meant to be". It doesn't feel right to me, but I guess this new Turtles really ARE different to the ones we used to know.

I'd like to say that I'm glad Peter is sharing his opinions on the IDW series, because wether you agree with him or not, I'll always be curious to know what he thinks about the new routes the Turtles are taking.

[ToTheNines]

but I guess this new Turtles really ARE different to the ones we used to know.

Was that ever up for debate?

[Hermano Dyvas]

[about the reincarnation angle] the problem is most writers aren't as brilliant as Alan Moore often is.

Did he just serve Tom Waltz? Straightforward guy our Pete. :)

It's obvious Peter has issues with the major differences between Mirage's and IDW's turtles, I wouldn't have it any other way. It means he has a lot of love for what he created and his vision of the turtles.

As a fan however I welcome a fresh new breeze in the franchise. I am happy IDW is turning it into their own thing instead of just copying mirage and I look forward to their universe expanding further.

[1984TMNT]

I think Peter's points are totally valid, and to a degree I kind of agree. However, as far as Peter's opinions go - for IDW's take on the Turtles, they are in a kind of "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation. If they didn't change things "just for the sake of changing them", then Peter would be criticizing the fact that they haven't broken any new ground and are just copying what has come before.

I'm not a huge fan of the re-incarnation thing, but I'll deal with it. It's not going to ruin the series for me, so I'm not too worried about it. As long as the characters come off as true to themselves, I'm down to enjoy the new stories that will come out of this universe.

I lived through Shredder being a Utrom (fundamentally changing his character), which I thought was just awful.....and THAT came from/was approved by Peter - so having the TMNT be reincarnated isn't that big a deal to me.

[plastroncafe]

That doesn't sound like love to me, it sounds like sour grapes.

[Oculus Orbus]

Was that ever up for debate?

No it wasn't, I was just refering to the major changes done in the roots of the characters, that will probably have a huge impact in their development. They could have had another type of origin (wich didn't include reincarnation), and still be very different to the Mirage Turtles. I'm fine with most of the changes we've seen so far, but the origin is such a big thing for me. I'm not even saying that I wanted them to repeat the same old story, I just don't like them being humans reincarnated, that's all.

[Samhain]

I think some people are forgetting that Peter was ASKED for his opinion. He didn't come out of no where putting IDW down. He was asked his opinion and he gave it. Thats's fair.

[CyberCubed]

I agree that its better to see something new.

If IDW stuck too closely people would just view it as a rehash of the Mirage material. They can't even slightly mix it up because the 4kids series already did that with many Mirage stories.

[Andrew NDB]

Peter raises valid concerns and points, but ultimately I agree that it's great that IDW is trying something new.

The reincarnation thing I'm actually really on board with.

[CyberCubed]

.

The reincarnation thing I'm actually really on board with.

Especially since there's probably going to be a plot twist with the reincarnation thing down the road. Its quite possible the Turtles may not be Yoshi's reincarnated sons after all, and they simply "fine tuned what was learned" via the samples in the mutagen.

I could see a great depression arc for Splinter if he realizes they are not his true sons, but then accepts them later on as his new family. It could be brilliant if done right.

[marcelangelo]

Especially since there's probably going to be a plot twist with the reincarnation thing down the road. Its quite possible the Turtles may not be Yoshi's reincarnated sons after all, and they simply "fine tuned what was learned" via the samples in the mutagen.

I could see a great depression arc for Splinter if he realizes they are not his true sons, but then accepts them later on as his new family. It could be brilliant if done right.

yeah, I also have a feeling there's still a twist somehow in the reincarnation thing for the turtles...in one of tom waltz' recent interviews he said a sentence about this that read to me like the door is still open to swing in both directions here...

[Oculus Orbus]

Especially since there's probably going to be a plot twist with the reincarnation thing down the road. Its quite possible the Turtles may not be Yoshi's reincarnated sons after all, and they simply "fine tuned what was learned" via the samples in the mutagen.

I could see a great depression arc for Splinter if he realizes they are not his true sons, but then accepts them later on as his new family. It could be brilliant if done right.

That would be fantastic. Really, if that happened, I'd go nuts for IDW TMNT.

[Konchadunga]

I'm sorry that he didn't include characters you think should have been included and I'm sorry that as Peter got more busy with the 2007 movie and other aspects of the franchise towards the end of the cartoon run that he probably wasn't controlling the content of the show AS heavily (hence Cody Jones and pizza humor). I'm sorry that you don't like the way he ran things, but he doesn't anymore so you don't have to worry.

I think you're a little confused about my stance on things. I never really demanded any of the OT characters to come back. I am certain that a lot of OT fans wouldn't give the new show a chance because they didn't, but that's not how I personally felt. Personally, I took a while to get into it, but was hooked when I did. Second, I don't remember any pizza humor in the show, and my point was that, had there been any, it quite possibly would not have been as annoying as Mikey's new obsession with being Battle Nexus Champion. With Cody Jones, and Fast Forward in general, again I'm not really stating my own opinion so much as what's become a very popular one; I never had much of a problem with that season, and liked it much better than the Lost Season, but the general fan backlash is undeniable. My overall point is that, while I agree the 4Kids show is better than the OT, that quality doesn't really have much to do with its disregard for a lot of OT elements. It definitely does have to do with its incorporation of a lot of Mirage Comic elements, but only so long as the show continued to incorporate them. I loved the show and didn't hold its lack of OT stuff against it, but I can imagine a version I loved more that included some of the OT stuff and didn't include some of the new stuff it added.

As for the 2007 movie, my personal opinion there is that it wasn't worth Peter Laird putting the 4Kids show on the backburner. Don't get me wrong; I liked it, but it didn't leave much of an impression on me with its one-off plot and its family-friction subplot. It just felt like an episode of a TMNT TV show to me, and for me the thrill of the shows is the cumulative effect of their episodes.

I think it would benefit you to be able to walk a few steps in someone else's shoes before frankly you make such harsh judgements about someone you don't even know. Unless you were at Mirage Studios daily during the 2000's you really don't know what Pete's life was like nor what stresses he was putting up with, nor how much heart he put into the projects he choose.

Oh; I have tried to put myself in his shoes, although you're probably right that nobody is really able to, and I made a pretty sympathetic post here (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?p=896083#post896083). Still, just as Peter Laird wishes he could change history so he wouldn't have created the Turtles, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to have his life if it made me as unhappy as he seems to be. Even with all of that money, I don't think I'd want to be that bitter. He probably does have his reasons, and I can speculate about them, but I don't know if I want to think in any great depth about them; lest I start overanalyzing everything and disliking everything.

XVCtkzIXYzQ

-ms

No; it's many people's opinion, and as I made clear above, many people's more severely than mine. I actually got into an arguement with my brother when we dug up an old VHS of "The Big Blow-Out" that we had in a bin, and he referred to it as "The good series." (I did not add that emphasis.) To this date, I think TMNT nostalgia still surrounds the OT more than it does the 4Kids show, and a big part of that is that the 4Kids show was handled in a way that alienated OT fans, almost deliberately. If it hadn't, the fandom would have crossed over, and the franchise would be huge. I think maybe even the Mirage Comics inherrited more fans from the OT, possibly because they had the first movie to use as a bridge.

I know it's easy for some of you to say that the 4Kids show was good on its own merit, and who cares what fanboys say, but for me, it's incredibly annoying to keep hearing a show I like badmouthed because it was allegedly TMNT in name only, and the real problem is that the people doing the badmouthing don't even have what I'd consider bad taste in general, and don't even know they're prejudiced. Had the 4Kids show just thrown the fanboys a bone; provided some icebreaker to introduce them, I'm quite certain a lot of the old fans would come to love it. It would be a treasured part of TMNT mythology to reference in later discussions in adaptations. Yet I think they (maybe Peter, maybe somebody else, but somebody) got too caught up in the notion that "good" = "not like the OT," and the unpopular ideas they had later gave lie to that.

[Jester]

You seriously think the 4Kids series intentionally alienated fans of the Fred Wolf series? Reading the facebook wall for the Nick series will tell you that the biggest reason fans of the FW series didn't flock in droves to the 4Kids series was more because, "This isn't the Turtles I remember, and because of that they automatically suck!" 4Kids threw many "bones" to FW fans. Secret Origins: Part 3 had several references to the OT. Samurai Tourists gave us Gen dressed as Rocksteady and a anthropomorphic warthog. The first episode of >> had a Bebop look-a-like. I think the only thing that was a blatant possible alienation of FW fans was surprisingly the one that was the biggest use of them, Turtles Forever.

Sure Peter didn't want this show to be as goofy for goofiness sake as the FW series was, but it never made an active attempt to alienate FW fanboys. If anything they alienated it because it "RAPED MY CHILDHOOD!!"

[Samhain]

At first when Laird made that comment, it kinda bummed me out. I didn't understand. Then, I read this interview with Kevin Eastman. He basically described how almost overnight they went from 2 dudes making a comic to having to manage a multi-million dollar empire. You see, Laird wanted to DRAW, and make his comics. But, with the turtles having blowing up the way they did he couldn't do it. It's a difficult situation and I can certainly understand why Peter feels the way he does nowadays.

I suggest you read this interview, it might change the way you judge people who have been through something like this.

http://www.tcj.com/the-kevin-eastman-interview-part-i/

[ToTheNines]

Especially since there's probably going to be a plot twist with the reincarnation thing down the road. Its quite possible the Turtles may not be Yoshi's reincarnated sons after all, and they simply "fine tuned what was learned" via the samples in the mutagen.

Quite possible. It was "super solider mutagen" after all.

[Matches Malone]

Quite possible. It was "super solider mutagen" after all.

Back when we were in the first couple of issues, speculation on how the turtles learned ninjitsu so quickly did often surround the concept of the super soldier mutagen. After all, isn't it kind of weird if the turtles were exposed to it and DIDN'T see any improvement in fighting due to it? Not very "super soldiery," if you ask me. I still find that a more satisfying explanation than the reincarnation bit. With Splinter it makes sense, since his mind has been reawakened by the serum. But the turtles just "sensing" something from their past lives just doesn't seem to quite fit with this universe where there seems to be a logical explanation for most everything.

[Leo656]

Sometimes I wonder if it might have been better off if Laird had sold it off to someone else years ago, honestly. It's not that any of his feelings are invalid, or that he has no right to feel burnt out, overworked, unappreciated, etc. But I think a big part of it is that deep down, Pete was never as invested in this whole thing as we are, and there's lots of reasons for that, many of which make complete sense.

BUT I sometimes think about Siegel and Shuster having to sell Superman to DC all those years ago, and it was a totally different situation of course, and they were treated very badly but the point is, it COULD be argued that the character of Superman was a lot better off once it was removed from, and allowed to grow beyond, the creators' original vision. Many of the things we take for granted as "fundamentally" Superman were not created by the people who created him, even the character's personality and behavior are very different than the original intent. So the creators lost their pure, undiluted vision... and in return the world was given the biggest cultural icon of the 20th Century. If Siegel and Shuster had written/drawn every issue of Action Comics and Superman, its very possible the character would never have survived for as long as it has. I'll never EVER say DC was right to treat Siegel and Shuster the way they did, BUT Siegel and Shuster didn't make Superman a legend, DC did that by taking their foundation and building a ton of stuff on top of it. Some was good, some was less so, but a lot of it has more to do with how we think of the character now than what was originally laid out.

I want TMNT to become that kind of franchise, where it might not always be "hot" but it's always "there", where there's always comics to read and toys to buy, and no long stretches of inactivity where people forget it existed and why it was cool, and we all sit around hoping for the next "boom". And honestly, I think we're closer to that happening now than before. With more potential for more TMNT product out there, and less chance of editorial guidance/interference from the original creator(s), it's actually kind of exciting to me to see how some other people are going to add to the mythos. Yeah, there's the potential for a deluge of crap at some point in the future, as happens to everything popular once the creators go hands-off and it's all about the money, but is it really going to be that different from what we've always had and been used to? Good, bad, whatever, if Laird isn't interested in doing TMNT anymore, I'm honestly glad he'd rather let someone who is interested take over. Before he sold it off I was honestly afraid he would just shut the whole thing down; seeing how unhappy he's apparently been at various times makes me wish he sold it off sooner.

Who knows, in another 30 years we might all look back on how IDW, or Nick, or whoever does the next take on TMNT, "finally got it right" with their version just like many people said about John Byrne's take on Superman, 50 years after he was created... and his version was as far from the original as any other take. You simply never know. The TMNT "going corporate" might end up being he best thing for them from a longevity and relevance perspective. :)

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

I am reminded of the old adage, "Money can't buy happiness."


But you probably have a better chance at finding happiness than if you're miserably poor.

I don't know what's going on in Laird's mind when he said that he wished he hadn't created the turtles. He got to make boatloads of money and have famous characters that were loved by tons of kids, and continue to be loved by kids at heart. Most writers/creators can only dream of that. He can throw a big pity party if he wants, but I don't feel sorry for him.

[Rooish]

But I think a big part of it is that deep down, Pete was never as invested in this whole thing as we are, and there's lots of reasons for that, many of which make complete sense.

I think he was very invested! Writing comics, nitpicking the 4kids show scripts... I thought his issue was, as long as he was involved, he was so invested that he couldn't balance the rest of his life.

Interesting reading Eastman's interview. I got the idea that he didn't feel very involved with the Mirage crew like Laird did... I almost got the impression he saw them as mooches! Is this what you guys saw?

[Samhain]

Interesting reading Eastman's interview. I got the idea that he didn't feel very involved with the Mirage crew like Laird did... I almost got the impression he saw them as mooches! Is this what you guys saw?

Yeah, I got that vibe too. Which kinda messed up how I thought all the Mirage dude's acted around one another. Money really does make everything complicated.

[Plasticplayhouse]

That doesn't sound like love to me, it sounds like sour grapes.

na, i do believe that pete still has love for the turtles. he's just a purist, and thats ok.

[Uki]

especially since there's probably going to be a plot twist with the reincarnation thing down the road. Its quite possible the turtles may not be yoshi's reincarnated sons after all, and they simply "fine tuned what was learned" via the samples in the mutagen.

I could see a great depression arc for splinter if he realizes they are not his true sons, but then accepts them later on as his new family. It could be brilliant if done right.

like!!!!!!

[Konchadunga]

na, i do believe that pete still has love for the turtles. he's just a purist, and thats ok.

Meh; with the exception of times when an original product is arguably better than the one that bastardized it (and "arguably" means "with more to argue that the original is better than it simply being the original"), I can't think of any time that being a purist is a good thing. The original Batman comics might have been good, but they weren't the be-all-and-end-all of the series. Originally, their character Mr. Zero was a fairly one-note villain; then the Adam West show renamed him Mr. Freeze and expanded him, and finally Batman: The Animated Series gave him an immense amount of development with a sympathetic motive, and it was so good that it stuck in the comics. Harley Quinn was also so interesting (in part because she gave more dimension to the Joker) that she was added to the comics. Had the comics writers been purists, they could have blocked all of that neat stuff.

Also, there's the chance of an original work starting good and then going to crap. When I first saw the Teen Titans animated series, I thought it was kind of stupid and annoying, and it bastardized some of the stories Marv Wolfman and George Perez did pretty badly (although their wasn't the original take on Teen Titans, either, but it's the one the show is most based on), but it grew on me, and then I got a chance to see what the actual Teen Titans comics had become since the Wolfman and Perez era--long story short, they were intolerable. Annoying, emo, soap opera-ish, senselessly-macabre, and worst of all, making liberal use of the "Which Titan will we kill this month" gimmick to sell comics. At this point, I'm not even going to pretend I don't like the cartoon better.

That said, even when I dislike the direction a new edition/version takes as a whole, doesn't mean that I want to discount every single thing in it. I mentioned I hated the overall direction Teen Titans comics were going, but I loved Ms. Martian, and I'm now very glad she is in the Young Justice show. When good things are created, they should be retained for other adaptations, and when bad things are created, it's worth seeing if they can be revised and improved in other adaptations. Purists tend to be blind to all that.

[Jester]

In that case, Laird isn't a complete purist, because Hun and the Battle Nexus (and maybe other things) make their way into Mirage cannon.

[Hermano Dyvas]

Meh; with the exception of times when an original product is arguably better than the one that bastardized it (and "arguably" means "with more to argue that the original is better than it simply being the original"), I can't think of any time that being a purist is a good thing.

That said, even when I dislike the direction a new edition/version takes as a whole, doesn't mean that I want to discount every single thing in it. I mentioned I hated the overall direction Teen Titans comics were going, but I loved Ms. Martian, and I'm now very glad she is in the Young Justice show. When good things are created, they should be retained for other adaptations, and when bad things are created, it's worth seeing if they can be revised and improved in other adaptations. Purists tend to be blind to all that.

You seem to have trouble putting a difference between fans and the creator of the original version himself.

As the creator of the original universe I think Pete has a right to be a purist about it.

[Donnie]

As the creator of the original universe I think Pete has a right to be a purist about it.

Agreed 100%. JRR Tolkien would be quite critical with the LotR movie trilogy. But I don't care, I still love them! Even though the example isn't exactly the same since the trilogy came out after his death, the fact remains that the creator should have the right to separate from his work and be overly critical about it.

[Konchadunga]

As the creator of the original universe I think Pete has a right to be a purist about it.

And as an American, he has a right to give anyone the finger. Just because someone has the right to do something doesn't mean they should. To go back to Marv Wolfman, he could have objected to the Teen Titans TV series, but in fact he was nice enough to write episodes for it. Stan Lee enjoys the (ridiculously altered) Japanese Spider-Man show. Hideo Kojima considers the unofficial, America-only game Snake's Revenge a good entry into the series; even if it's non-canon. Creators have a right to get hot and bothered about others meddling in their intellectual property, but their peers have the right to state that this is an unpleasant mindset.

If you're going to be that finicky about the direction others might take your series, you should draw the line a long time before selling the rights to a toy company. You should resolve to remain the only person who is writing the stories for your series. Now, I know Peter Laird didn't exactly have the ability to do that, as the comics were a cocreation of him and Eastman, and from what I understand Eastman was more open to the Playmates deal than Laird was, but that it wasn't a one-man show from the very beginning should have been enough for Peter not to act like he was the only one whose input into the turtles mattered, even at the time he was the sole owner.

[Noah13]

And as an American, he has a right to give anyone the finger.

Are you saying we (non-americans) don't have this right?

[Plasticplayhouse]

Are you saying we (non-americans) don't have this right?

Now that's funny! I was kinda thinking the same thing.

[FearlessLeader]

And as an American, he has a right to give anyone the finger. Just because someone has the right to do something doesn't mean they should. To go back to Marv Wolfman, he could have objected to the Teen Titans TV series, but in fact he was nice enough to write episodes for it. Stan Lee enjoys the (ridiculously altered) Japanese Spider-Man show. Hideo Kojima considers the unofficial, America-only game Snake's Revenge a good entry into the series; even if it's non-canon. Creators have a right to get hot and bothered about others meddling in their intellectual property, but their peers have the right to state that this is an unpleasant mindset.

If you're going to be that finicky about the direction others might take your series, you should draw the line a long time before selling the rights to a toy company. You should resolve to remain the only person who is writing the stories for your series. Now, I know Peter Laird didn't exactly have the ability to do that, as the comics were a cocreation of him and Eastman, and from what I understand Eastman was more open to the Playmates deal than Laird was, but that it wasn't a one-man show from the very beginning should have been enough for Peter not to act like he was the only one whose input into the turtles mattered, even at the time he was the sole owner.

Peter is a human being and isn't perfect. Has every choice and word that he has ever said been perfect... no. You seem to expect him to fit into this nice, tidy little idea of how YOU think he should act. That's kind of silly.

Once again I will state if what Pete does and says seems to fluster you to the level where you continuously write these long drawn out rants maybe you should stop reading his opinions and move on to something that makes you a happier person.

[ToTheNines]

If you're going to be that finicky about the direction others might take your series, you should draw the line a long time before selling the rights to a toy company. You should resolve to remain the only person who is writing the stories for your series.

Jesus Christ dude, just look at Volume 1 of Mirage. Pete let a lot of people do a lot of things with the turtles over the years.

[Jester]

Exactly. He just knew what he wanted from the Turtles he was working on, be it volume 4 or the 4kids series.

[Leo656]

I'unno, I think the dude raises a lot of good points. A few people do have a less than sparkling view of Laird, but to be fair, he kinda said and did a lot to put us in that mindset.

Konchadunga made a lot of good points how other creators have been more than accomodating to other interpretations of their precious IP. Laird has always been a little too "Stiff" for my (and I'm guessing a few others) tastes.

At the same time, I think a lot of fans have put Laird (and Eastman too to a degree) on something of an undeserved pedestal "just" because they created the TMNT. Since they've both repeatedly said it's caused them more headaches than joy over the years, I'm not one of those people and I kinda wish they'd sold it off to someone who actually would have been more pro-active with the franchise years ago, even if what came of it wasn't "true to the creators' vision".

That's what I meant earlier by Laird not being as "into it" as we are. I meant we LOVE the TMNT, and I don't think Eastman or Laird ever saw it as more than a business. The more Laird especially talks about it, he makes it seem like it was the worst thing he ever did. I can understand it, but I still hate it.

But all opinions are valid. Let's not go smackin' folks just because they don't all mesh.

[Hermano Dyvas]

And as an American, he has a right to give anyone the finger.

Are you saying we (non-americans) don't have this right?

Actually I was watching this Britisch cop show the other day and turned out there's an actual law against it in Britain. If you do it in public at least.


But back to our subject, just because he can doesn't mean he should, maybe so.

I for one respect the fact that he voices his opinion, even if it clashes with everybody else's. All his fan's going "You shouldn't pull the plug on it if you had a time machine." and he just goes "Yeah, there's a big chance I'd pull the plug on it.". It takes character to do that.

I don't think he should fake enthusiasm about IDW or other mediums if that's not what he feels.

[Matches Malone]

Actually I was watching this Britisch cop show the other day and turned out there's an actual law against it in Britain. If you do it in public at least.


But back to our subject, just because he can doesn't mean he should, maybe so.

I for one respect the fact that he voices his opinion, even if it clashes with everybody else's. All his fan's going "You shouldn't pull the plug on it if you had a time machine." and he just goes "Yeah, there's a big chance I'd pull the plug on it.". It takes character to do that.

I don't think he should fake enthusiasm about IDW or other mediums if that's not what he feels.

I also think some people are overlooking or downplaying the context of his responses. He never just says, "yeah, I wish I never invented the turtles." He goes on to weigh the pros and cons and that even though he ultimately would (if not for his daughter), he would certainly hesitate before doing so. People only use his final decision (which is simply hypothetical) as a means to judge him without noting the context at all. If people actually read his entire responses, he doesn't sound like a bitter old man. Someone who has been worn out by the franchise? Sure. But he also gives plenty of evidence that he's doing his best to be honest without sounding like a bitter old man.

[Fugitoid Jones]

I just think it's kinda funny how Pete doesn't like the artwork for the IDW series, but this is the same guy that had Jim Lawson draw nearly all his stuff. While I admit that Dan Duncan's art wouldn't be my ideal choice for a TMNT comic, I think it's a hell of a lot better to look at than Lawson's squibbles (at least not early Lawson, early Lawson was alright).

[ZariusTwo]

I just think it's kinda funny how Pete doesn't like the artwork for the IDW series, but this is the same guy that had Jim Lawson draw nearly all his stuff. While I admit that Dan Duncan's art wouldn't be my ideal choice for a TMNT comic, I think it's a hell of a lot better to look at than Lawson's squibbles (at least not early Lawson, early Lawson was alright).

I've always loved Lawson's artwork. It's so nice not to be part of the pack mentality isnt it?

[Metropoliskid41]

And as an American, he has a right to give anyone the finger. Just because someone has the right to do something doesn't mean they should. To go back to Marv Wolfman, he could have objected to the Teen Titans TV series, but in fact he was nice enough to write episodes for it.


This analogy/reasoning is flawed, as Laird was very active in the 2k3 series.

[Oculus Orbus]

I just think it's kinda funny how Pete doesn't like the artwork for the IDW series, but this is the same guy that had Jim Lawson draw nearly all his stuff. While I admit that Dan Duncan's art wouldn't be my ideal choice for a TMNT comic, I think it's a hell of a lot better to look at than Lawson's squibbles (at least not early Lawson, early Lawson was alright).

Well, Jim is pretty awesome, if you ask me.

[Metropoliskid41]

I enjoy all takes on the Turtles, its neat to see so many different styles, and I especially really dig Lawson's style.

[FearlessLeader]

Just feeling the need to chime in as another supporting of Jim's work. I love not only his Turtles but really all his artwork! :tgrin:

[CyberCubed]

I think Laird wasn't enthused by Duncan's art simply because it was in color. He said he likes scenes with no backgrounds when the characters are just standing around talking to each other, like those white backgrounds you see in the old Mirage comics.

[Toby Barrett]

That's really an odd critizism to have, considering there are several instances where the characters are talking to each other in panel sequences without backgrounds.

Though, Dan's work is really awesome in black and white! (http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8085/tmntcover4bydanduncand4.jpg) Would have looked awesome in a Mirage book.

[Powder]

Just feeling the need to chime in as another supporting of Jim's work. I love not only his Turtles but really all his artwork! :tgrin:

Ditto. I love his work. Definitely in my top 3 favorite artists list. I'll always defend awesome Lawson.


Though, Dan's work is really awesome in black and white! (http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8085/tmntcover4bydanduncand4.jpg) Would have looked awesome in a Mirage book.

I much prefer it in B/W myself, a few grey tones and his colorless turtles would make a better book.

[Fugitoid Jones]

I've always loved Lawson's artwork. It's so nice not to be part of the pack mentality isnt it?

Pack mentality nothing. I didn't mind Lawson's artwork up till about a few issues into Vol. 4, then everything after that just drove me nuts. People can like it all they want, I'm just saying it wasn't my cup of tea.

[ToTheNines]

Pack mentality nothing. I didn't mind Lawson's artwork up till about a few issues into Vol. 4, then everything after that just drove me nuts. People can like it all they want, I'm just saying it wasn't my cup of tea.

They quit duo-shading his art at some point in Vol. 4.

[Flitcraft]

Dan's work does took pretty darn good in b&w, though it looks like it might be set up to be colored. I bet he might add some more shading if it was just staying in b&w and it would look even cooler.

I'm with some of you folks on Lawson. I really enjoy his art.

After saying that I thought I'd also comment on "Peter Laird on IDW TMNT" since that's the title of this thread... Laird seems to have very specific tastes. A few little things can put him off. He doesn't seem all that excited about the turtles these days so he probably finds it easy to not really care for what's coming out now.

[Andrew NDB]

It's not hard math, really. He (co)created the Turtles, ergo, he would have some direct insight more than anyone else on the planet about how they would think, how they would behave in a given situation, things they would and wouldn't do, things they would and wouldn't say, and otherwise things that would be apocryphal to their core.

But I do believe he's being a bit unfair in his early assessment of IDW. Or at least premature.

[CyberCubed]

But I do believe he's being a bit unfair in his early assessment of IDW. Or at least premature.

He also changes his opinions often. When the Image series first came out he enjoyed it and gave it praise, but nowadays on his blog he posted how he doesn't care for the series, and how he hated the idea of Don being a cyborg.

I realize opinions can change from 1997-2012...but yeah.

Also interesting to note how he confessed to never reading the majority of the Archie series or the later issues of Tales V. 2.

[Andrew NDB]

He also changes his opinions often. When the Image series first came out he enjoyed it and gave it praise, but nowadays on his blog he posted how he doesn't care for the series, and how he hated the idea of Don being a cyborg.

I've never once read him say that about Don as a cyborg. If he did say that, that'd be pretty ironic given what happens in Vol. 4.

[CyberCubed]

I've never once read him say that about Don as a cyborg. If he did say that, that'd be pretty ironic given what happens in Vol. 4.

I'll see if I can dig it up, I know it was posted on his blog sometime back in 2011, probably in one of his earlier "Ask PL" blog posts.

[Leo656]

Off-topic, and this must just have to be where I live or something, but I've never met anyone in person who was that enthusiastic about Jim Lawson. I... I don't see it! I mean, some of the earliest stuff, okay. And maybe in a pin-up sense his style works better than in a sequential storytelling sense... and I'll admit he does some wicked dinosaurs... but on the whole, I can't see it. I've tried, and it's not a deal-breaker for me personally, but ALL of my friends are huge TMNT fans and I can NOT get them to read Mirage. I know when you grow up mostly reading DC and other stuff you see things in a different perspective, but a lot of my friends read way more black n white and indie comics than I do, and they still say they can't get past the art. I swear, I've tried. People at the comic place I used to go to, same thing. Every month, they'd only get in 3 or 5 copies of Vol. 4. Reason I was given? "Nobody buys that book, it looks like crap, we just order it for you and if any little kids come in".

Not trying to be a basher, simply relaying my own personal experiences with this phenomenon.

Maybe everyone in NJ is living in a vortex, I'unno. I know it pissed me off that Vol. 4 could'a sold at least another dozen issues a month if some of the artists from Tales worked on it instead. That book had a lot of great stuff, both stories and art. I miss it.

[marcelangelo]

well, there you have it some people like it some they don't...that's life....may I ask how many people you know that read turtles at all(in person I mean)?...I have never met anyone in my entire life that read the comics(people that I enthusiasted into reading it don't count here) of the turtles....

I enjoy jims style very mucho!...there were times when I was feeling like I am growing tired of it...but after a while of not seeing it anymore I REALLY got into it and appreciated it even more...I think you can't argue that his style is his own, there is no one other on this earth that draws the way he has found for himself and thats the beauty of it...thats the jelly, if someone finds his own individual way of expressing himself...

and with peters comments about the image series?..I think you are seeing all this out of perspective, you give too much emphasis on what someone said once...I have read the same etatements that some of you brought into your posts and I must say I haven't expirienced any of the greef many of you seem to feel...I mean just reaad throuh the ask pl thread that is still open, someone asked him something about the image books and he simply said he didn't like this or that but he didn't say he hated the whole run...deal with the point that he just wasn't trying to cover up the things that were still unresolved when the image run ended but wanted to start fresh with his vision...
about idw?he said he couldn't get into them 'for whatever reasons'...he also mentioned that his feelings may change once he can read through more issues in one sitting...so what is your problem with it?...

[Leo656]

Since high school I've had about dozen friends that were hardcore into TMNT, comics, or both, but only me, Mary, and about two others actually read TMNT comics. Few reasons for that being in the little town I/we grew up in, the closest places to get comics were 7-11 or the little corner newspaper store (remember those?), and all they got was the Archie book, and only sporadically. So I don't laugh when people say they honestly thought the only TMNT book was Adventures, because other than Wizard I never even saw a picture of a Mirage TMNT book until I was 17. Some of the actual comic book shops, 30-40 minutes away might get an issue of Mirage back in 1990 or so, but I had a bigger comics allowance than anyone my age and even I only went comic shopping a couple times a year, so I missed out. As we got older, some of my friends started getting more into comics, and I tried to turn them onto some TMNT books (I picked up most of Mirage in an epic run at my then-local shop about 10 years ago), but aside from the covers they really, *really* didn't like the art.

Remember too, a lot of these folks grew up only seeing TMNT in the cartoon and the movies. So honestly, going from that to Lawson after only seeing more or less one take for 12 years or so... can be jarring. I can see getting used to it, but I still can't get anyone to make the effort. Sorry, honest attempts were made. When you can't tell April from Casey in the same panel it's hard to argue around it. I can deal with it, they couldn't, and as I've said, there were a lot of "I'd get into the book IF..." comments, and while I'll admit, it belies some stubbornness on their part, it always has made me resent Lawson more than I otherwise might.

That said, I actually had much more of an issue with some of the Image art. In some issues the linework was totally wrong for a black n white comic, way too hard to see what was going on. Can't remember which issues those were but I remember they stood out as really bad to me, compared to the other issues. I think they were earlier?

[Samhain]

I, for one enjoy Lawson's style. It just has a certain ''charm'', I guess. When I think of Mirage, I think of Jim Lawson. I can certainly understand there are tons of people that are reading books with David Finch or Jim Lee doing interiors, then they pick up a book with Lawson's turtles in it and put it down in disgust. It is what it is. His style is not for everybody. But he is a damn good artist. A lot of people need really good artwork to pick up a book and give it a chance. Hell, I'm guilty of that.

But sometimes I wish Lawson would have kept the style he was drawing ''RTNY'' in.

[Jester]

Yeah, if you look at his comic adaptations of TMNT and SotO, you can see the style change drastically. TMNT is similar to RtNY, where SotO is closed to Volume 2.

[marcelangelo]

thanks leo for the insight!I apreciate it...yeah, now that you mentino it i sometimes had difficulties telling april and casey apart in jim's books;)haha...yeah, well it isn't perfect but nothing really is...apart from these problems every now and then I must say that I really admire his style...
that's funny I discovered the mirage original comics at the same age as you, buddy;)hahaha...before, during turtles prime(I call that the turtles craze of the late eighties/early nineties now), I had what was called teenage mutant hero turtles super comic magazine(these were no adaptations of the ot original stories, some very great) and I didn't realize that turtles had been a comic book to begin with...and when I found out I discovered ninjaturtles.com(at my friends home, I had no computer back then) and they offered to read the first issue online.bam-they had me from page one!
first issue I got was issue 3, still one of my altime favourites and funny enough I learned it was published in the month and the year I was born, so I got a special connection to that one;)

[Konchadunga]

This analogy/reasoning is flawed, as Laird was very active in the 2k3 series.

It is not flawed, because the 2k3 series was (at least initially) a relatively acurate adaptation of the Mirage comics that Peter Laird had direct control over. That wasn't the case with the Teen Titans animated series; it wasn't developed by Marv Wolfman, made multiple changes from the source material, flanderized the characters tremendously, and in its adaptation of the Judas Contract arc, concluded with the exact sort of ending that Marv Wolfman deliberately avoided in the original. I'm kinda drunk right now, so I cannot really post a lot more, but I think my point is clear. Have you actually seen the Teen Titans cartoon?

[Killer Moth]

It is not flawed, because the 2k3 series was (at least initially) a relatively acurate adaptation of the Mirage comics that Peter Laird had direct control over. That wasn't the case with the Teen Titans animated series; it wasn't developed by Marv Wolfman, made multiple changes from the source material, flanderized the characters tremendously, and in its adaptation of the Judas Contract arc, concluded with the exact sort of ending that Marv Wolfman deliberately avoided in the original. I'm kinda drunk right now, so I cannot really post a lot more, but I think my point is clear. Have you actually seen the Teen Titans cartoon?

(Puts on Titans-fan hat for a moment.)

At most, Marv Wolfman wrote only two episodes. The first was a late Season 1 filler episode, which was lackluster at best. (It was remarkable in that it introduced Aqualad and Trident.) He later wrote part 1 of the Season 3 finale, and offered the best Brother Blood characterization in the series. Either way, Marv wasn't involved much, but he obviously was willing to go along for the ride.

Actually, the animated series was an improvement for both Starfire and Raven. Comic Starfire was basically Innocent fan-service girl, while Comic Raven was walking and talking wangst. Both characters are good, yet the animated series obviously had to tone down such characterizations and, in their way, improve them. However, unique problems later developed, as comic Raven eventually became more like her sardonic and surly animated character. (Her reactions toward Beast Boy by the end of the animated series were borderline abusive, hence the complaint.)

Same with the Judas Contract, as the revisions were acceptable until the writers couldn't decide to make Terra become like her comic self (a hardcore psychopath who loved being evil) or go with the sympathetic character the animated version was becoming. That, and 5 episodes of her in a 13 episode season doesn't exactly allow the audience to truly empathize the loss or impact of her betrayal.

Oddly enough, the show started to nudge toward its comic roots with the final two seasons, especially the final one with its take on "Titans Hunt." It all works out, somehow.

Anyway, it isn't the best comparison, for Laird played an incredibly major hand with the 2003 series than Wolfman ever did. For example, in reading the emails, it is rather interesting in how the 4Kids writers/producers were quite willing to do even more allusions to the OT. As for Laird shooting them down, you can decide if it was a good thing, or not.

Anyway, moving on to hopefully something on-topic. He makes an interesting point about 'changing the origin for the sake of changing,' or to make something more about the Turtles rather than the accidential nature of their birth. On the one hand, the reincarnation angle is an incredibly fresh one, yet, on the other, we lose the Daredevil/Frank Miller parody which inspired the Turtles in the first place. Win some, lose some, I suppose.

[Konchadunga]

Anyway, moving on to hopefully something on-topic. He makes an interesting point about 'changing the origin for the sake of changing,' or to make something more about the Turtles rather than the accidential nature of their birth. On the one hand, the reincarnation angle is an incredibly fresh one, yet, on the other, we lose the Daredevil/Frank Miller parody which inspired the Turtles in the first place. Win some, lose some, I suppose.

Daredevil is a rather obscure character; that the Turtles were a parody of his stories would hardly be apparent to most modern readers, so there is virtually nothing to be gained from reiterating their origin as analogous to his. I retain my opinion that adaptations most definitely should change things for change's sake; that's the point of adaptations, so long as they aren't anything too excessive. (I'm looking at you; Michael Bay!) Also, Peter Laird slammed Cowboys and Aliens for being "by the numbers;" so I'm guessing that part of his attitude is that he's just extremely pessimistic about almost everything.

[Genesis]

I am entirely on Laird's side about the reincarnation bit.

The colour thing sounded like he was reaching for reasons, but I can sorta get where he's coming from.

[Cowabunga Carl]

I always find it interesting how much more Kevin is/was willing to explore different aspects of the TMNT then Peter was. I understand that the TMNT were a labor of love for Peter, but I think they were for Kevin too. Sometimes things work for a while, sometimes they need to change.

Now the argument about change for change sake isn't that compelling for me. I think the change was made so it wasn't just a carbon copy again. We have the Mirage comic, the first movie, the 2k3, and to an extent the OT that all have the same basic origin. We've seen it over and over. I will admit I was a little concerned about the change at first. Now I dig it and it works for this book. I still have the Mirage books and love them. I read them too. It isn't like this new book erases all those.

I honestly think what is going on is Peter is experiencing a little sellers remorse. That he thought the franchise was dead and figured he'd make a quick buck. Then when he saw that there was a successful comic that is doing fairly well he became bitter.

[Galactus]

I always find it interesting how much more Kevin is/was willing to explore different aspects of the TMNT then Peter was. I understand that the TMNT were a labor of love for Peter, but I think they were for Kevin too. Sometimes things work for a while, sometimes they need to change.

I always thought for Kevin it was a funny li'l comic that ended up making him millions. That's why he was less inclined fight for his own personal sense of integrity in the mass media versions, because to him it was well made joke but even then someone that didn't like to stay on something for too long and that's why he seemed to resent it because in his own words "it never stopped". Just like with Laird the business end became so overwhelming he had to step away.

Now the argument about change for change sake isn't that compelling for me. I think the change was made so it wasn't just a carbon copy again. We have the Mirage comic, the first movie, the 2k3, and to an extent the OT that all have the same basic origin. We've seen it over and over. I will admit I was a little concerned about the change at first. Now I dig it and it works for this book. I still have the Mirage books and love them. I read them too. It isn't like this new book erases all those.

It's perfectly valid argument that changing something at it's core changes it to the extent that you may just come up with an original concept using that idea instead of applying it to an already existing property. We've had numerous takes of Batman and Spider-Man and Superman but basics are all in place in each version.

A person who is open to change can still dislike a particular change or changes. I'm personaly okay with the reincarnation but the whole evil corporation manufacturing super soldiers from some shadow figure with an alien connection is just fanboy kewl that I just roll my eyes.

I don't get how the man who okayed or even thought up some major changes in the 4Kids show is closed off from change.

I honestly think what is going on is Peter is experiencing a little sellers remorse. That he thought the franchise was dead and figured he'd make a quick buck. Then when he saw that there was a successful comic that is doing fairly well he became bitter.

He doesn't talk like someone who has sellers remorse or someone that figured the franchise was dead. A movie deal was in place and was a major factor of Viacom wanting to the buy the franchise. He knew Nickleodeon had plans for a cartoon and he's even said he likes what he sees of it from the different material that's been forwarded to him.

His reasons for not caring much for IDW's ongoing book are as perfectly valid as the next even if you or I may not agree.

[ZariusTwo]

However, unique problems later developed, as comic Raven eventually became more like her sardonic and surly animated character. (Her reactions toward Beast Boy by the end of the animated series were borderline abusive, hence the complaint.)

Raven's abuse of BB was completly understandable seeing as the writers admitted they wrote them like how an "old married couple" would act...I agree that it gets a little sadistic (particulary in Titans in Tokyo), but it's still pretty funny, and you know the two love each other to bits anyway (Besides, they became a couple in the comics, and they ended the pre-52 Titan continuity together). Hopefully the new all-comedy Titan cartoon slowly blurs and blends their comic and cartoon histories together.

[CyberCubed]

Keep in mind PL said he only skimmed through the first two issues or so when it first came out. He never seriously sat down to read through the series.

[Andrew NDB]

It is not flawed, because the 2k3 series was (at least initially) a relatively acurate adaptation of the Mirage comics

Not at all.

[Allio]

Not at all.

When it did try to adapt issues of the comics, it was pretty accurate (ie The King) but yet still keeping it different to stay in line with what the show did different (When they meet the time lord's student) and fixed things that made me depressed (the story with the merman XP)

though it still tried to be different, which is how an adaptation should be (Adaptations are difficult the way it should be done, from comics/games to movies, remakes, and even stuff like Sentai into Power Rangers)

[Andrew NDB]

When it did try to adapt issues of the comics, it was pretty accurate (ie The King)

That's the only episode that actually adapted anything. And it was impressive.

Even though I've never really been a fan of that particular issue.

[corvus]

2k3 series is obviously mostly based on mirage.

[Andrew NDB]

2k3 series is obviously mostly based on mirage.

Two episodes halfway decently, then some very, very broad strokes from a few other issues cherry picked and spread out over some pretty ghastly episodes, and then a few episodes in title only (yes, I'm looking at you, "Return to New York," "City at War" -- and I can't stress those quote marks more). That's really it.

[Galactus]

That's the only episode that actually adapted anything. And it was impressive.

Even though I've never really been a fan of that particular issue.

It adapted many stories from Mirage now whether it did so in satisying way is up to the viewer who knows both versions to decide.

Did you really expect 100% accuracy in a saturday morning cartoon or a show written with the benefit of hindshight as opposed to something made on an almost issue by issue basis. Your threshold for how much change should be done obviously differs from most but I'd argue there were a few that were adapted with a much more reasonable degree of accuracy beyond just Donatello #1. The People's Choice, I Monster, Return of Savanti, All Hallows Thieves even Raph's sub story in Challenges to name a few.

[Andrew NDB]

Did you really expect 100% accuracy in a saturday morning cartoon or a show written with the benefit of hindshight

Or more appropriately worded, "Did you really expect 100% accuracy in a saturday morning cartoon written for children?"

No. Not at all. Did I in any way represent my statement with any element of surprise or shock? It's a cartoon for little kids, of course it's going to be watered down to applesauce and sprinkled with toys-to-be filler characters and slapstick fluff. 4Kids TMNT didn't exactly break the mold in any way, shape, or form beyond making a marginally better (or at least marginally more faithful, insomuch as a TMNT cartoon can be for little kids... I don't begrudge them that, it's more a begrudging of how the medium and target demographic does not behoove the source material) cartoon than the Fred Wolf series.

[Venom]

That's the only episode that actually adapted anything. And it was impressive.

Even though I've never really been a fan of that particular issue.

To be fair, Murph adapted his own "Sons of the Silent Age" story for the 4Kids! series.

I've not seen a lot of the 4Kids! episodes. but I remember seeing that one and enjoying how similar the stories played out; then again, the man who wrote the orginal story did his own adaptation so that possibly plays into the quality.

[Cipher]

To be fair, Murph adapted his own "Sons of the Silent Age" story for the 4Kids! series.

I've not seen a lot of the 4Kids! episodes. but I remember seeing that one and enjoying how similar the stories played out; then again, the man who wrote the orginal story did his own adaptation so that possibly plays into the quality.I believe you're almost alone on these boards in feeling that way, but if you enjoyed it, good for you.

I'm still scratching my head over it. Either Murphy didn't realize the gravity of the original story, or he really wanted to take advantage of the opportunity to present an (even more) environmentally conscious episode to kids. And maybe a more upbeat one.

[Andrew NDB]

I'm still scratching my head over it. Either Murphy didn't realize the gravity of the original story, or he really wanted to take advantage of the opportunity to present an (even more) environmentally conscious episode to kids. And maybe a more upbeat one.

Again, it's a cartoon for little kids... and Murphy was a gun-for-hire. The actual "Sons of the Silent Age" story would make little tykes want to slit their own wrists (or at least that would be the corporate/demographic way of thinking) so he delivered something that... wasn't like that.

It would be one thing if Murphy was tasked with, "Hey, deliver us your definitive version of the 'Sons of the Silent Age' comic book story in script-form for the screen"... but he wasn't. What he was tasked with, like I would imagine every writer on the show, was, "Hey, deliver us a version of the 'Sons of the Silent Age' comic book story... but make it age appropriate, real kid friendly and all that. Oh yeah, and here's a bunch of notes from Playmates about stuff you need to include."

[Cipher]

Again, it's a cartoon for little kids... and Murphy was a gun-for-hire. The actual "Sons of the Silent Age" story would make little tykes want to slit their own wrists (or at least that would be the corporate/demographic way of thinking) so he delivered something that... wasn't like that.

It would be one thing if Murphy was tasked with, "Hey, deliver us your definitive version of the 'Sons of the Silent Age' comic book story in script-form for the screen"... but he wasn't. What he was tasked with, like I would imagine every writer on the show, was, "Hey, deliver us a version of the 'Sons of the Silent Age' comic book story... but make it age appropriate, real kid friendly and all that. Oh yeah, and here's a bunch of notes from Playmates about stuff you need to include."Yeah, I'm not really blaming him. Although I guess it seems like I was.

The 4Kids series was what it was, and it's guilty of a lot more kids' TV pitfalls than most fans own up to. I suppose more than anything, I just question the wisdom of adapting that issue in the first place, since even the episode as a stand-alone entry seems tonally inconsistent.

[Roseangelo]

Sons of the Silent Age was also adapted for the old TMNT newspaper strip by Murphy and Jim Lawson (before Dan took over). It was a bit of a downer there, too.

[Venom]

The actual "Sons of the Silent Age" story would make little tykes want to slit their own wrists (or at least that would be the corporate/demographic way of thinking) so he delivered something that... wasn't like that.

That's why a suits way of thinking is skewed.

I was 7 years old when I read "Sons of the Silent Age" and "Soul's Winter" (my first Mirage issues), and while I was confused with the tone and its stark contrast with the cartoon, those 2 isssues are what caused me to fall in love with the Mirage Turtles.

[Cipher]

Sons of the Silent Age was also adapted for the old TMNT newspaper strip by Murphy and Jim Lawson (before Dan took over). It was a bit of a downer there, too.I know it's a little off-topic, but are these, or any of the TMNT newspaper strips, catalogued anywhere online? I'd love to see 'em.

[Galactus]

Or more appropriately worded, "Did you really expect 100% accuracy in a saturday morning cartoon written for children?"

Arn't all saturday morning cartoons made for children? At best you get the writers trying to have their cake and eat it too in regards to writing something they hope will also appeal to some adults as well. I'd say this is true for a lot of the TMNT 2K3 series as well appealing to Laird's personal sense of commercial integrity/brand identity.

Again, it's a cartoon for little kids... and Murphy was a gun-for-hire. The actual "Sons of the Silent Age" story would make little tykes want to slit their own wrists (or at least that would be the corporate/demographic way of thinking) so he delivered something that... wasn't like that.

It would be one thing if Murphy was tasked with, "Hey, deliver us your definitive version of the 'Sons of the Silent Age' comic book story in script-form for the screen"... but he wasn't. What he was tasked with, like I would imagine every writer on the show, was, "Hey, deliver us a version of the 'Sons of the Silent Age' comic book story... but make it age appropriate, real kid friendly and all that. Oh yeah, and here's a bunch of notes from Playmates about stuff you need to include."

I think you're letting you prejudice against a show for children cloud your judgement on this one. Sons Of The Silent Age could easily have had an ending faithful to the comic version. As Rose mentioned the message was there in the newspaper strip which really was for li'l kids watered down version and considering the 2K3 show did have episodes that were hard medicine for kids I can tell you the message wouldn't have been out of place.

I'd argue Cipher is right on the money with this one. Murphy wanted to work in one of his save the earth/anti pollution messages and he felt the episode was the best fit for it. I can buy other factors playing a part such as stretching the plot to fill the full time or having an action quota maybe Muprhy just didn't want to repeat the same story again and write something representative of his current mindset but anyone who thinks the company that okayed Same As It Never Was and Bad Day would shy away from an accurate adaption of the ending of Sons Of The Silent Age is being a bit closed minded.

I know it's a little off-topic, but are these, or any of the TMNT newspaper strips, catalogued anywhere online? I'd love to see 'em.

Most were online somewhere, I can't recall which site. I remember speculation there'd be taken down after the Nick sale so it could be gone now.

[Xav]

It would be one thing if Murphy was tasked with, "Hey, deliver us your definitive version of the 'Sons of the Silent Age' comic book story in script-form for the screen"... but he wasn't. What he was tasked with, like I would imagine every writer on the show, was, "Hey, deliver us a version of the 'Sons of the Silent Age' comic book story... but make it age appropriate, real kid friendly and all that. Oh yeah, and here's a bunch of notes from Playmates about stuff you need to include."I'm not sure what Playmates stuff you are talking about.

[Cipher]

I'm not sure what Playmates stuff you are talking about.Every time you see a vehicle or the Turtles in costume during the 4Kids series? That's Playmates.

It's probable they also had some per-episode stipulations we weren't privy to. The Fred-Wolf series did.

[Andrew NDB]

Arn't all saturday morning cartoons made for children?

Of course!

I think you're letting you prejudice against a show for children cloud your judgement on this one. Sons Of The Silent Age could easily have had an ending faithful to the comic version. As Rose mentioned the message was there in the newspaper strip which really was for li'l kids watered down version and considering the 2K3 show did have episodes that were hard medicine for kids I can tell you the message wouldn't have been out of place.

Not apples to apples at all. There were no suits or Playmates toy lines to concern anyone with on the newspaper strips.

I'm not sure what Playmates stuff you are talking about.

Cartoons don't exist in mass media unless there's big toy lines attached. Do I need to go into further detail?

[Galactus]

Not apples to apples at all. There were no suits or Playmates toy lines to concern anyone with on the newspaper strips.

Are you saying you believe everyone involved in the newspaper strip had carte blanche? Even if there was no official rules to follow everyone involved knew it was to kept all ages.

It's highly unlikely anyone at Playmates or any higher ups at 4Kids were of any concern to Murphy when writing the animated version of "Sons Of The Silent Age". There was no product placement at all in that episode and like I said before, given what the show had done prior to that episode the original ending would not have been at all out of place on the show.

Given what we know of Murphy's more current writing it's a lot more likely he came up with the nuclear power plant aspect completely on his own.