The Wealth of Villains

[MikeandRaph87]

One of the many things about TMNT I love is the Rogues Gallery. It is apart of what has made them so successful. Shredder went from one-shot plot device to the definitive foe. Shredder,Krang,Bebop, and Rocksteady are partially responsible for the first wave success in other media and still fun to see to this day and perhaps reappear after Turtles Forever. Rat King,I always wonder why of the characters created up to that point was used in the cartoon but he became the enigmic number two foe. Leatherhead has played different roles in different versions but is arguably best known as a villain. The bizzarro turtle Slash has a fanbase of his own. Baxter no matter the person's thumb he is under or the color of skin or form he takes is an interesting character. Others like Agent Bishop,who thinks he is doing good when he is a villain. The Triceraton vs Federation struggle is awlays fun and I am glad 4Kids added to that to expand upon it. Other lesser foes like Groundchuck and Dirtbag, Big Louie, Tatsu, and The Ultimate Ninja. The wealth of villains thanks to the genius of many creators helps make the franchise. Its just like Batman's gallery of of foes and Spider-Man's. Even the lesser ones are fun to watch/read. Agree? State your favorite villains and why! Thanks for the reply.

[CyberCubed]

Sadly some of my favorite villains have never made it to the cartoons. Armaggon is just damn cool, who doesn't want an awesome shark mutant from the future?

Malinga was a great warlord from Dimension X and the character of Null, who was both a demon/devil and a business man were great.

I actually wish there was a show that adapted the Archie comics into episodes, people who don't read the comics missed out on a lot of good stories and villains.

[MikeandRaph87]

[QUOTE=CyberCubed;921967]Sadly some of my favorite villains have never made it to the cartoons. Armaggon is just damn cool, who doesn't want an awesome shark mutant from the future?

He is definitely the best character to never make it into a character. A favortie of mine as well. He headlined my favorite Archie series storyline and only made that one appearance outside of that since The Forever War is still in limbo. Maybe Nick will see his potential. PErhaps an organized email campaign to Nick L. Oden will do the trick?

[ngroove]

Agent Bishop. Unlike the bumbles that appears in the 1987 series (as much as they were beloved, and I still have the action figures to most of them) he could hold his own, to physically beat the shell, out of all four turtles at the same time, all the while looking slick, complete with shades and a tie.

At first, season three of 2003 Turtles-wise, I actually thought that he was an ordinary human who could pull off those mad moves. Season four, would reveal that he was bio-technologically enhanced, or something of the sort. And he is seemingly immortal, as was seen in a portrait from a seeming past, to long in the future, Fast Forward.

One thing I took a slight displeasure of, although aware its a pretty striking trait that made him a bad guy, was his scientific sadism. To experiment, even mentions dissection, of those poor unfortunate people, or supers, those whose appearance is beyond our own, whether Turtles, Leatherhead, ect. Mad creator of that poor monster who was once his military buddy in that episode "Dragon's Brew" and the show's incarnation of Rat King. At least he was somewhat far fairer to then-disembodied Baxter Stockman, than Shredder ever was.

[CyberCubed]

[QUOTE]

He is definitely the best character to never make it into a character. A favortie of mine as well. He headlined my favorite Archie series storyline and only made that one appearance outside of that since The Forever War is still in limbo. Maybe Nick will see his potential. PErhaps an organized email campaign to Nick L. Oden will do the trick?

I hope he appears but everyone knows e-mails don't work.

Armaggon was definitely the coolest mutant animal character that only appeared in the Archie comics. Sadly he never even got a toy.

[ngroove]

[QUOTE=mikeandraph87;921969]

I hope he appears but everyone knows e-mails don't work.

Armaggon was definitely the coolest mutant animal character that only appeared in the Archie comics. Sadly he never even got a toy.

sayy, what about the SNES version of TMNT Tournament Fighters?:twink:

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Sadly some of my favorite villains have never made it to the cartoons. Armaggon is just damn cool, who doesn't want an awesome shark mutant from the future?

Malinga was a great warlord from Dimension X and the character of Null, who was both a demon/devil and a business man were great.

I actually wish there was a show that adapted the Archie comics into episodes, people who don't read the comics missed out on a lot of good stories and villains.

Why was Null a demon? Why not just an ordinary bad-ass businessman. Jephael actually has proposed some cool stuff on his You Tube page where he said that instead of the Red Sky years, the show would get more into the Archie Comics.

[MikeandRaph87]

Opps.Crappy spell check altered my last post slightly.Best character never to appear in a cartoon would be Armaggon. A lot of potential just waiting to happen!

Agent John Bishop took me by suprise.Black Ops bore me yet he was complexand a different type of evil.I hope to see him again.

Null needed and still does need a backstory if he is to show up ever again. Abecoming more demonic with each successful evil deed is odd and in a way he is a stereotype yet original.The character never pulled me one way or another.

[Logan]

Where's the love for Creepy Eddie?

[Killer Moth]

Null had personality, sure, but I never cared for him. Mainly, as I find the whole "business executive = evil" archetype so tiresome. Oh, well.

Ignoring the obvious one with OT Shredder and somewhat with Krang, I now believe my favorite 80's/90's TMNT villains have more to do with their design rather than the execution. Slash is the clearest example with his action figure design. (Archie tried its best and did a good job, along with its version of Scumbug and a few others.) And there are others, like Baxter Stockman, who is often a villain but with some nuance to him (be it abused lackey or constant failure).

Oft-times, the question can become "are they truly villains in their motivations?" It depends on the media. Chrome Dome was a clear-cut villain in the OT, yet had a noble motivation in Tournament Fighters (to remove his original programming). OT Slash was not evil -- just mentally unstable and violent, and the latter carried over to the Archie version. And then, it later revealed as rebellion to his homeworld being destroyed. Wingnut, Man Ray and Leatherhead had major revisions in the OT as villains, and quite obvious about their villainy with the slight exception of Ray. At least, Mondo Gecko got a chance to reform, which I wish the others had.

Archie Wyrm would be a unique villain, as he is beholden to his hunger. Is that considered villainous if your motivation is hunger? It is, when he wants to kill you and eat your flesh. On a macro-scale, this applies to Malinga. Armaggon would be the most clear-cut villain of the Archie villains, but the series didn't know what to do with him after the Future Shark Trilogy. (When in doubt, dump them in dimensional limbo.)

On a smaller scale, Bebop and Rocksteady shouldn't be ignored, as they clearly enjoy their destructive sides and when done right, do it very well. The Season 1-2 characterization is definitely this, but, depending on your view of Comedy relief B&R, such feelings can shift to pity. (Pity being directed at the verbal abuse the Shredder puts them through, etc.) Hun would be the more constantly serious version, completely reveling in what he does (breaking heads and taking names).

And then, there are certain exceptions or special circumstances. Mirage Shredder was more absolute in his villainy, whilst initially motivated by avenging his brother. Bishop was a clear villain, except, as Laird noted in his emails to the producers, they had a difficult time with detailing his motivations. Then, we have a fascinating in-between with Karai. Mirage Karai wanted to keep the peace, yes, but we are talking about a villainous ninja clan still capable of major death and destruction. 2003 Karai had her honor code shtick to humanize her, and she remained at the Shredder's side despite all compelling (and valid reason) to abandon him until Forever. Chaplin didn't mind the villainy too much, so he rolled along with it.

I suppose my point being is that there is a sizable rogues' gallery, yet trying to figure who is really a villain in the TMNT franchise and who isn't isn't easy as it looks.

I apologize for all the text length but I was on a roll and better not lose the thought. I'll whip up an actual and brief list in the next post. Promise.

[MikeandRaph87]

Killer Moth,that is one of the things I liked the most about the 2003 cartoon. All of those under Shredder;Karai,Baxter,and Chaplin were not evil but feel compelled to do things that would be considered villainous. Hun can even have a softer side while still more villainous then Karai who walked the line because of divdied loyalities,Baxter driven my his ego became sympathetic and not so bad, while Chaplin is just energetic and does not care who his boss is. There is also Agent Bishop who is similar to Ra's al Ghul in that he is trying to his part to same the world from what he sees as a threat and will do whatever it takes to acheive that goal. The Ultimate Ninja was driven by the lust for power and made a raw deal after he got showed. he was not that made of a guy like Baxter his ego got the best of him and got involved with the wrong people. His love for his father turned him around.

I can tell you like the secondary villains yourself being Killer Moth, the lovable loser of the Bat Rogues.:twink:

[Killer Moth]

Killer Moth,that is one of the things I liked the most about the 2003 cartoon. All of those under Shredder;Karai,Baxter,and Chaplin were not evil but feel compelled to do things that would be considered villainous. Hun can even have a softer side while still more villainous then Karai who walked the line because of divdied loyalities,Baxter driven my his ego became sympathetic and not so bad, while Chaplin is just energetic and does not care who his boss is. There is also Agent Bishop who is similar to Ra's al Ghul in that he is trying to his part to same the world from what he sees as a threat and will do whatever it takes to acheive that goal. The Ultimate Ninja was driven by the lust for power and made a raw deal after he got showed. he was not that made of a guy like Baxter his ego got the best of him and got involved with the wrong people. His love for his father turned him around.

I can tell you like the secondary villains yourself being Killer Moth, the lovable loser of the Bat Rogues.:twink:

Agreed, as the 2003 villains were far more fleshed out. Karai and her honor aside, Baxter might be the most unique of the lot. His villainy was defined early on, but his future pitiful state propped him to an interesting form of audience sympathy. Still a SOB, and you felt sorry for him, anyway.

OT Baxter also got an interesting revision between 'A Thing About Rats' and 'Return of the Shredder.' In the former, he was so busy building the Mouser master control, he didn't know what the Shredder was doing with his Mousers. In the latter, his initial dialogue had him act he was an active or more willing participant in the villainy (and apparently aware of Splinter's existence). Understandable, to set him as the Shredder's assistant, but that's quite a change. At least, he was in an asylum when Shredder found him, so it's slightly easier to forgive the characterization issue. (As a side note, would Season 1 Baxter have approved of Shredder's true intention with the Mousers? Because I'm not sure, so I'll leave that as a fun exit question.)

And then, there is the various forms of non-Mirage Rat King, who initially had a lovely shade of moral ambiguity before descending standard villainy. Oh, well, but he is a special case.

As for your last remark, "LOL," indeed. I do prefer the more secondary villains, because they need more fandom love, so to speak. The primary villains are essential, of course, but they already have that. Not that I don't mind adding a little more, myself.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I like the season 4-5 solo adventures, with all those gangsters mad scieentists.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

I wish Lotus Blossom appeared more often in the 1987 cartoon, instead of just a couple of times.

[Killer Moth]

I like the season 4-5 solo adventures, with all those gangsters mad scieentists.

Admittedly, I had a good laugh about the "Leave It to Beaver" gangsters in the Cufflink episode. Imagine Jerry Mathers doing that. Hmm....

A few extra thoughts about Chaplin, as he would be my second choice from the 2003 original villain pool (first choice is Bishop, natch). Between his initial fanboy approach and his nonchalant or laid back attitude (be it liking Baxter despite the betrayal to his reaction to Shredder's true form), it's hard not to like him. It's a shame we weren't allowed to see his progression from nerd to manly nerd in Season 5. I don't mind the shift, but I would have liked to see how they got there.

[Xav]

Hun can even have a softer side while still more villainous then Karai who walked the line because of divdied loyalities,Baxter driven my his ego became sympathetic and not so bad, while Chaplin is just energetic and does not care who his boss is. What are you talking about with Hun? He always seemed like a bad guy to me.

[sdp]

I wish more villains had been re-used instead of so many generic scientists or antagonists the turtles had. I understand why they had Krang/Shredder so many damn times but there is no reason to not use the other recurring villains more instead of the forgetable one appearance antagonists.

Also while I would have loved to see Armaggon animated, he probably would've been wasted and had a worthless appearance, either he would've been dumb or a bumbling fool like other villains. Maybe it was better he never appeared, though that would've made him more popular and more likely to appear in newer Turtles media or even had a toy, I have a feeling he'll be forgotten because all he did was appear in a videogame and archie which aren't very well remembered outside the fandom.

[ngroove]

MikeandRaph, I would not really consider Doctor Chaplin a "villain" villain.

- Keep in mind, to New York, Oroku Saki was a reputed philantropist, whose organization had "great plans" for the city, notably after Triceraton attack. Last I remember, under Karai, the Foot was still a public name of good.

I assume, despite having himself cranking out deadly robotic Karais and Mouser 2.0s, he was still misguided with such assumption of doing good for the city, rather than actually plotting to destroy the Ultroms / take over the universe. And yeah, blind idolism to Baxter Stockman, a great name to the scientific community, sealed his employ with them. Karai, maybe a slowly-growing secret crush, a bonus.

[ngroove]

What are you talking about with Hun? He always seemed like a bad guy to me.

Yeah; any self-aware leader of the Purple Dragons Street Gang, is rated at least "bad" to me.

[ngroove]

I wish more villains had been re-used instead of so many generic scientists or antagonists the turtles had.

Some cases, with the scientists, more mutants are to be made, and if it's Shredder all the time, that would be just predictable.

Like, remember Captain Filch? Not only mutater of Mona Lisa, also - get this - Mutant Anemones! Giant, nigh-mindless, mutant anemones!

Gosh, in that "Turtles Forever" movie, wonder who was mad doctor behind the Mutant Banana?!!:trazz:

[Jester]

A rare triple post has appeared!

[Killer Moth]

I wish more villains had been re-used instead of so many generic scientists or antagonists the turtles had. I understand why they had Krang/Shredder so many damn times but there is no reason to not use the other recurring villains more instead of the forgetable one appearance antagonists.

Also while I would have loved to see Armaggon animated, he probably would've been wasted and had a worthless appearance, either he would've been dumb or a bumbling fool like other villains. Maybe it was better he never appeared, though that would've made him more popular and more likely to appear in newer Turtles media or even had a toy, I have a feeling he'll be forgotten because all he did was appear in a videogame and archie which aren't very well remembered outside the fandom.

They had a good stable with Baxter, Rat King and Leatherhead, but you can only use them for so much for so long.

Frankly, I wish the 87 producers had this attitude with Slash, but they didn't. Some fared better than others as more serious threats later in the series (Chrome Dome, Antrax and the Triceratons), but "toning them down" or have them be bumblers was a necessary evil in early 90's Saturday morning television.

It's also why we may never see the Four Horsemen in any future form. (I forgot to add them as additional favorites in my first post.) Clever designs and original in execution, except we can't exactly have the characters based on the apocalypse running around much. Ironically, X-Men's various animated forms didn't have that problem with their version of the Four Horsemen (a necessity as per Angel's conversion into Archangel). Since X-Men wasn't as "kiddie" as the TMNT were at that point, they were able to. Having Fox, who had more lax censors didn't hurt, either.

At least, Konami gave us War, even if he had to become an alien in the process. The revisioning as an alien was fine, except why he couldn't speak correct English when the Archie version didn't have such issues? He offered one of the best lines in the franchise, "Friendly Fire -- I love oxymorons."

[MikeandRaph87]

About Hun, I just said he had a softer side,but yes he is a bad guy. Reading Peter's entry on his blog about the Recycled Nightmare episode and a couple other moment showed he was not Pure evil but yes a baddie nonetheless. Of the villains in that show aside from my disliking the approach with my favorities Shredder and Rat King, Hun seemed like a punk who got lucky and bored me. If its to be Shredder's right hand I much perfer Tatsu or as henchmen Bebop and Rocksteady though more fleshed out and with a little blood on thier hands.

I am no fan of the mad scientist. They just seemed like a bland cliche. Of all the mob bosses that showed up Big Louie seemed to have potential among them. He was the mellowed down steroype of the Italian godfather type and could work for or against Shredder or another while do his own thing robbing banks or kidnapping whatever to make an illegal buck and gain territory. I honestly think he deserved to be fleshed out and adapted in the Mirage Comics or in the two to three episodes with the mob in the 2003 cartoon. Insteado f that no named red head mob boss Big Louie would have been a good fit IMHO.

[TheCanadiandrome]

The title threw me off, thought it had to do with money lol :tlol:

[MikeandRaph87]

The title threw me off, thought it had to do with money lol :tlol:

I do appreciate the humor of Jester and yourself. Maybe I set myself up there but it was supposed to mean the wealth of villains help make TMNT a success. Its much like with Batman and Spider-Man. They have such great villains that help make them great heroes. Even the lesser rogues like Killer Moth or more obscure ones like Calendar Man, Spook, Dr. Phosphorous,etc. and Kangaroo,Boomarang fan favorite Shocker.etc. TMNT has them too. It makes the TMNT more interesting. The heroes or anti-heroes or misguides characters that surround the heroes in a half shell help make them great!:tgrin: :tcool:

[Killer Moth]

I do appreciate the humor of Jester and yourself. Maybe I set myself up there but it was supposed to mean the wealth of villains help make TMNT a success. Its much like with Batman and Spider-Man. They have such great villains that help make them great heroes. Even the lesser rogues like Killer Moth or more obscure ones like Calendar Man, Spook, Dr. Phosphorous,etc. and Kangaroo,Boomarang fan favorite Shocker.etc. TMNT has them too. It makes the TMNT more interesting. The heroes or anti-heroes or misguides characters that surround the heroes in a half shell help make them great!:tgrin: :tcool:

That is a good question in itself and worthy of its own thread -- how do Krang and Shredder fund themselves and the Technodrome? They steal tech, sure, but having a giant mobile fortress isn't cheap. One of the more fascinating aspects of the middle years is that the villains didn't always have something on hand whenever a Technodrome component broke. Everything breaks down, then they have to go fix it... or not, thanks to the Turtles. Makes for some good cheap villainous motivation. Good times.

And way to word it up with the other lesser comic villains. I approve.

I'll address the Hun/Garbageman tangent when I get additional wits about me.

[ssjup81]

It's also why we may never see the Four Horsemen in any future form. (I forgot to add them as additional favorites in my first post.) Clever designs and original in execution, except we can't exactly have the characters based on the apocalypse running around much. Ironically, X-Men's various animated forms didn't have that problem with their version of the Four Horsemen (a necessity as per Angel's conversion into Archangel). Since X-Men wasn't as "kiddie" as the TMNT were at that point, they were able to. Having Fox, who had more lax censors didn't hurt, either.
I just thought I'd point out that the series didn't air on Saturday mornings either. That also probably had quite a bit to do with it, along with Fox being a bit more lax, as you pointed out.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

About Hun, I just said he had a softer side,but yes he is a bad guy. Reading Peter's entry on his blog about the Recycled Nightmare episode and a couple other moment showed he was not Pure evil but yes a baddie nonetheless. Of the villains in that show aside from my disliking the approach with my favorities Shredder and Rat King, Hun seemed like a punk who got lucky and bored me. If its to be Shredder's right hand I much perfer Tatsu or as henchmen Bebop and Rocksteady though more fleshed out and with a little blood on thier hands.

I am no fan of the mad scientist. They just seemed like a bland cliche. Of all the mob bosses that showed up Big Louie seemed to have potential among them. He was the mellowed down steroype of the Italian godfather type and could work for or against Shredder or another while do his own thing robbing banks or kidnapping whatever to make an illegal buck and gain territory. I honestly think he deserved to be fleshed out and adapted in the Mirage Comics or in the two to three episodes with the mob in the 2003 cartoon. Insteado f that no named red head mob boss Big Louie would have been a good fit IMHO.

I love those Austrian bodybuilders who use "Strongium 90". I plan on a fanfic where Strongium 90 is sold to athletes (weightlifters, amateur heavywight wrestlers, heavywight amateurs boxers) for the upcoming Olympic Games.

[MikeandRaph87]

Yeah,Wally Airhead. I forgot his motivation though. Strongium 90 was a ray so I am not sure how to make it a blackmarket item to athletes like a steriod. A way to isolate the compents that make Strongium 90 and alter it to a chemical compound? It might work but it can be tricky though I do like your premise!

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Yeah,Wally Airhead. I forgot his motivation though. Strongium 90 was a ray so I am not sure how to make it a blackmarket item to athletes like a steriod. A way to isolate the compents that make Strongium 90 and alter it to a chemical compound? It might work but it can be tricky though I do like your premise!

Or just pick one of those machines apart, smuglge them into the Olympic Village, restore it and hide it iside a cabin, where athletes can go and take a doze.

It musn't be the Olympics, just some sporting event.

[pannoni1]

Many franchises/even incarnations of TMNT have only one primary bad side, with both the Foot Clan and the Dimension X bad guys as the two primary axis powers (and even supporting ones such as Dregg' s clan), it really is part of the reason why I like this series so much. Besides creating numerous different plots, it keeps making the good guys think about what the best way is to defeat them. There are even a fair amount of good guys that people often forget to support them along the way.

[Killer Moth]

I just thought I'd point out that the series didn't air on Saturday mornings either. That also probably had quite a bit to do with it, along with Fox being a bit more lax, as you pointed out.

Right, right. My memory must have been a little fuzzy about that. In turn, Fox allowed the 2003 TMNT to do things we wouldn't get with Kids WB or CBS, etc ("Insane in the Membrane" aside).

I'm having a more difficult time trying to express the Hun/Garbageman brother idea then I thought, so I'll skip it for now.

Speaking of relatives of villains, we probably should say something about Barney Stockman. "Oh, yeah, Baxter had a twin somewhere, but we never got around to it until now." I'm sure it was the animators' way to use the Human Baxter character design one more time, but his role was somewhat amusing. Apparently, evil or mischief or wrong-doing must run in his family.

By the way, how many villains who have a sibling somewhere, who may or may not be in the same "profession"? Saki had Nagi in Mirage and I forget the other brother's name and his polar opposite in the OT. OT Baxter had Barney, and Hun would have had Garbageman had the stars been aligned properly. Anyone else, as I'm now drawing a blank?

[ngroove]

Right, right. My memory must have been a little fuzzy about that. In turn, Fox allowed the 2003 TMNT to do things we wouldn't get with Kids WB or CBS, etc ("Insane in the Membrane" aside).

I'm having a more difficult time trying to express the Hun/Garbageman brother idea then I thought, so I'll skip it for now.

Speaking of relatives of villains, we probably should say something about Barney Stockman. "Oh, yeah, Baxter had a twin somewhere, but we never got around to it until now." I'm sure it was the animators' way to use the Human Baxter character design one more time, but his role was somewhat amusing. Apparently, evil or mischief or wrong-doing must run in his family.

By the way, how many villains who have a sibling somewhere, who may or may not be in the same "profession"? Saki had Nagi in Mirage and I forget the other brother's name and his polar opposite in the OT. OT Baxter had Barney, and Hun would have had Garbageman had the stars been aligned properly. Anyone else, as I'm now drawing a blank?

Shredder -> Shredder's mother - Turtles 87', Season 4, Episode 5
Savanti Romero -> Savanti Juliet - TMNT (Mirage vol.1) no.48

Waitasec, siblings???

[Killer Moth]

Shredder -> Shredder's mother - Turtles 87', Season 4, Episode 5
Savanti Romero -> Savanti Juliet - TMNT (Mirage vol.1) no.48

Thank you, as I knew I was forgetting somebody or two.

Speaking of Juliet, it's a pity she didn't appear more often. She left quite the impression, along with her Renfield-like assistant. Speaking of which, did the 2003 series ever think about using her, since they were able to use Romero? Seems like a missed opportunity, especially with her burning skull being animated -- you'd watch, I'd watch. Oh, well.

Edit: Yes, I meant 'siblings,' but I probably should have went ahead and cast a wider net with relatives of any nature. I appreciate you jogging my memory about Juliet, as she had good motivation and being a better-than-average villain.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Right, right. My memory must have been a little fuzzy about that. In turn, Fox allowed the 2003 TMNT to do things we wouldn't get with Kids WB or CBS, etc ("Insane in the Membrane" aside).

I'm having a more difficult time trying to express the Hun/Garbageman brother idea then I thought, so I'll skip it for now.

Speaking of relatives of villains, we probably should say something about Barney Stockman. "Oh, yeah, Baxter had a twin somewhere, but we never got around to it until now." I'm sure it was the animators' way to use the Human Baxter character design one more time, but his role was somewhat amusing. Apparently, evil or mischief or wrong-doing must run in his family.

By the way, how many villains who have a sibling somewhere, who may or may not be in the same "profession"? Saki had Nagi in Mirage and I forget the other brother's name and his polar opposite in the OT. OT Baxter had Barney, and Hun would have had Garbageman had the stars been aligned properly. Anyone else, as I'm now drawing a blank?

Shredder's brother in the 1987 show= Kazou Saki (season 5, "My Brother, the Bad Guy")

[MikeandRaph87]

I am taken aback as it seems Karai is not the stepchild of Saki perhaps its something 4Kids can have as cannon from here on in as different versions brings reoccuring things to the series that follow. Karai as the step-daughter of Saki makes a lot of sense especially the stuggle with honor.

Who have we overlooked of the villains?

[ngroove]

Bloodsucker ( Mirage TMNT #24-26). They can make mutants out of rats, bats, and mosquitos, and even make them downright loveable; a mutant leech; however, that's just scary.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hmbDytF8vvo/TdxPLGqznJI/AAAAAAAAARQ/y8Yah42LYLc/s1600/Bloodsuckercollaggaaee.jpg

[ngroove]

Doctor Malignus (4Kids Toon). I know, I know, he's more of a Silver Sentry arch-nemesis, but he's had his scrapes with Turtle Titan, and appeared a few times throughout the show. Everytime I see him, I would speak his name under the same enthusiasm as I would a master megalomaniac from comicbooks.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

That is a good question in itself and worthy of its own thread -- how do Krang and Shredder fund themselves and the Technodrome? They steal tech, sure, but having a giant mobile fortress isn't cheap. One of the more fascinating aspects of the middle years is that the villains didn't always have something on hand whenever a Technodrome component broke. Everything breaks down, then they have to go fix it... or not, thanks to the Turtles. Makes for some good cheap villainous motivation. Good times.

And way to word it up with the other lesser comic villains. I approve.

I'll address the Hun/Garbageman tangent when I get additional wits about me.

Yes, but isn't the Technodrome needing fuel the most common plot in the entire 1987 show?

[MikeandRaph87]

Yes, but isn't the Technodrome needing fuel the most common plot in the entire 1987 show?

No, it is a common theme in season 3 or between episodes #19-#65. The Technodrome is in need of repairs at other times but repowering it is not the premise of the villain group's schemes outisde of that episode range often if at all. Other times its just stuck yet powered.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

No, it is a common theme in season 3 or between episodes #19-#65. The Technodrome is in need of repairs at other times but repowering it is not the premise of the villain group's schemes outisde of that episode range often if at all. Other times its just stuck yet powered.

Even season 4-5 has much of it.

[Killer Moth]

Bloodsucker ( Mirage TMNT #24-26). They can make mutants out of rats, bats, and mosquitos, and even make them downright loveable; a mutant leech; however, that's just scary.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hmbDytF8vvo/TdxPLGqznJI/AAAAAAAAARQ/y8Yah42LYLc/s1600/Bloodsuckercollaggaaee.jpg

We had Wyrm, as well. Archie Wyrm was almost philosophical..., while he was trying to eat you. Man, why did Forever War had to fall apart, as both he and Scumbug apparently were slated to return? Sighs.

Bloodsucker looks interesting, though. Why is he wearing a sheriff's hat or wearing a hat in one panel at the bottom? Gee, making a Sheriff Lobo reference with that seems so tempting right now. Heh.

[MikeandRaph87]

Bloodsucker is one that I have not paid much attention too. Its mainly for one of the two reasons just presented. Wrym fills a similar role and looked more appealing to me. Its also the fact its just that one story in Mirage that is just after RTNY which I never cared much for beyond that storyline. Bloodsucker may work I don't know I just like Wyrm better but like any cahracter he deserves a chance.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I like the "Northern Lights Out" Vikings, as their entire technology is a cool with the references to Ancient Nordic mythology.

[Jelly Bean]

I like the "Northern Lights Out" Vikings, as their entire technology is a cool with the references to Ancient Nordic mythology.

that episode fell flat for me.

I wonder if a villian could make it if they were dead ass broke...

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Opps.Crappy spell check altered my last post slightly.Best character never to appear in a cartoon would be Armaggon. A lot of potential just waiting to happen!

Agent John Bishop took me by suprise.Black Ops bore me yet he was complexand a different type of evil.I hope to see him again.

Null needed and still does need a backstory if he is to show up ever again. Abecoming more demonic with each successful evil deed is odd and in a way he is a stereotype yet original.The character never pulled me one way or another.

But where were Null and the Four Horsemen actually? I know they were monsters, but were they aliens from another planet?

[MikeandRaph87]

But where were Null and the Four Horsemen actually? I know they were monsters, but were they aliens from another planet?

Null was never said. He come be a human that later on became superhuman like Agent Bishop was a human that became something more only this case would imply some deal with a demon. He could also be very well a humaniod being from another planet its just never said. The Four Horsemen were definitely alien bu I do not recall a place of origin specified for them either. Its just The Four Horsemen are obiviously not human like Null has the appearance of one. That is the problem with his character in his three or four storyarcs before his death alongside Slash and Malinga it was never said anything at all about what he was or where is from.

[Cowabunga Carl]

Bloodsucker is probably one of my favorite characters. The three issues he appears in are some of the best issues outside of those writen by Peter and Kevin. He is really a tragic character when you look at his story arch. He is mutated by accident, driven by hunger, and used by a crazy old man for his own purpose. I'd love to see him again, bu fear he would be misused.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Null was never said. He come be a human that later on became superhuman like Agent Bishop was a human that became something more only this case would imply some deal with a demon. He could also be very well a humaniod being from another planet its just never said. The Four Horsemen were definitely alien bu I do not recall a place of origin specified for them either. Its just The Four Horsemen are obiviously not human like Null has the appearance of one. That is the problem with his character in his three or four storyarcs before his death alongside Slash and Malinga it was never said anything at all about what he was or where is from.

Maybe Null was alien at all. I mean trying to sabotage the entire Earth?

[Andrew NDB]

Null definitely has human origins but absolutely, 100% you would have never, ever seen a Null origin story in the Archie books. Never. Even if it lasted another 200 issues.

Well, unless Steve ever no longer had anything to do with the book and someone new decided to tell their own version of Null's origins.

[ToTheNines]

If it's never going to be revealed, then why don't you just tell us?

[juxtapose519]

I was always disappointed that there were so many villains, but very few that actually had well fleshed-out characters. Some of them only made one or two appearances and were never heard from again. I only purchased most of the Archie comics I own because they featured character that I had action figures for but had never seen in the show.

So while I agree that there were a lot of great villains, most of them were only great because they looked cool or because they were in a great episode, not because their backstory was riveting. Armaggon is badass, but to this day he is still "that shark from Tournament Fighters".

[MikeandRaph87]

Vid Vicious(sp?) from TMNTA#21 and #22. He had an origin and worked with Shredder and then was never heard from after that one story. I don't have an opinion either way but he is a prime example of a character who never got anywhere.

[CyberCubed]

Most of the Archie villains actually were fleshed out properly besides a few.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I was always disappointed that there were so many villains, but very few that actually had well fleshed-out characters. Some of them only made one or two appearances and were never heard from again. I only purchased most of the Archie comics I own because they featured character that I had action figures for but had never seen in the show.

So while I agree that there were a lot of great villains, most of them were only great because they looked cool or because they were in a great episode, not because their backstory was riveting. Armaggon is badass, but to this day he is still "that shark from Tournament Fighters".

I wish Armaggon and Verminator X were in the 1987 show. It's also interesting to compare, since "Once Upon a Time Machine" is the future vision we want (advanced technology, crime-free era), and the "Future Shark Trilogy" the future vision we fear (flooded towns).

[Impervium Gem]

Hello there,

creating this topic was a great idea and I enjoyed reading all of your opinions. I finished watching all 7 seasons of the '87 cartoon as well as a few episodes of the 8th lately so I thought I stop by. :tsmile:

Whenever I get excited about any fictional villain I usually love them SO much that I'm totally happy the very moment I see they are in an episode - and that definitely happened with Krang and Shredder. What was that a blast to see what they came up with to take over the world while constantly bickering on one another. Back then I knew only the German TMNT show, but after hearing Pat Fraley voiced Krang I was very eager to check that out. Was one of the best things I've done in my entire life, seriously!

It's incredible how intelligent they are, even though they act incredibly silly at times all the same. Both are pretty creative with their plans to conquer earth and look rather unique as well. I mean, a talking brain is quite something. :khappy: The body he had designed for Shredder to build has some interesting abilities, too. I was fascinated to see how he enlarged it to get an advantage against the Turtles. Also these "add ons" for its arms we could see during battles inside the Technodrome, the morning stars and axes, etc. were awesome! I got so excited when he told them they'd have to "tangle with him first". God, I LOVE Krang.

He has the funniest laugh I ever heard, too. Evil aliens from outer space are a creepy thought anyway, especially since our technology is inferior to theirs. The entire Technodrome structure is magnificent, even though it's large I wouldn't have thought it housed 972 rooms. A shame they didn't give us a tour to check out everything. Would have loved to have screenshots of every single room. 8D

As for Oroku Saki, the fact that he is a ninja AND skilled in biochemics are just two things that make him special; having the ambition to achieve his goals, using any methods necessary, is truly fascinating. His outfit makes him appear much more intimidating than he could without mask, adding a pretty mysterious effect to him. I like seeing him interact with everyone. The rivalry between him and Lotus was definitely interesting, how hostile he was right from the beginning. Actually I like the episodes with her, seeing a female that skilled in martial arts is great for sure.

Not to forget the hilarious amazingness in forms of Rocksteady and Bebop. Adding an additional pair of mutants to the show was a great idea, they were very adorably drawn and voiced. They really have several cute moments despite their rough attitude. Was sweet when Bebop mentioned once he had tried to visit his mommy a couple of times, but she always began screaming and ran away. In the TMNT world you can probably never know how a loved one might return to your home...

I was surprised how loyal they were towards Shredder when they heard how Krang insulted him, splashed him with two buckets of paint they had left after they painted the interior Technodrome wall. It's funny how they think of video games all the time and play and play and play. :grin:

My interest was also peaked by the over-intelligent, revolting Foot Soldier who soon gained control of all the others. Such topics tend to remind me of the shaky ground technology stands sometimes. As soon as something goes wrong, hell breaks loose. At least it turned out better with Mighty Bebop and Super Rocksteady. "Stop toitles, stop toitles!" ;)

Krang's history fascinates me and as a viewer I am always thrilled to "become acquainted" with his subordinates, (former) allies and foes. He usually seems to be rather pleased with General Traag which is interesting, considering he treats others much nastier than him. I wonder for how long they have known each other. There are so many things that would be worth knowing about all of them.

Would the Turtles not be there to interfere with the evil plans of their enemies the world would certainly be doomed, in Krang's case entire dimensions. He must have conquered several already, spread so much fear and destruction throughout the galaxy. With some people, real or fictional, you may find yourself wondering what they might do IF they had more opportunities than anything Earth provides - and Krang HAS them, is even capable of designing several pieces himself (unless he sends out his minions for an item he desires that is).

I have always fancied villains the most, they are a lot of fun to watch, often a bad example how to treat others and some never get boring. :tgrin:

Have a great time,

Tina

[Mr.Turtle]

i dont care wut other ppl think but i think bishops the best villain ever!

[MikeandRaph87]

i dont care wut other ppl think but i think bishops the best villain ever!

He and Karai really stood out from the 2003 cartoon villains. Never could get behind dull and lucky Hun. I hope to see more of Agent Bishop in the future and I don't ben the President of the Pan-Galactic Alliance. :tgrin: Very interesting and layered. Not entiely evil but misguided. Karai is similar in that respect.

[Mr.Turtle]

i dont think karai can compete with bishop in any way.

[MikeandRaph87]

i dont think karai can compete with bishop in any way.

Maybe not but I did like how the character was written with exception to the gap between season 3 and 4 when she was brought to the proeper authorities along with Dr. Chaplin and wanted to destory the turtles. There was no transition. Aside from that kudos for the character portrayal.

As for Bishop I do not care for spies and black ops, but Bishop was unique. He wanted to save the world from the "evil alien". His paranioia driving his life's mission. Bishop was a warrior for America but did not see the evil he did in trying to perserve his country and planet. It blinded him such as the deal in Good Genes or what he did to Leatherhead as examples. Without the blindness by his paranioa he could have been a good solider. His character develops while has the same core principles and remains mysterious throughout the show. I don't think the turtles ever learned he had a series of cloned bodies to live to the age of about 230(before Fastforward) and was a contemporary of John Quincy Adams and Andrew Jackson. It would have been nice to see them learn of his origin or more than the ten seconds in Wedding Bells and Bytes in the last season to see the plot of Fastforward starting to develop.

[Mr.Turtle]

i dont even kno why u compare the 2 in the 1st place... As for karai I do not care for spies and black ops but she is just shredder's unique b!tch n helped the turtles a couple of times thats all.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

972 rooms.

Up to you in a fanfic.

[MikeandRaph87]

i dont even kno why u compare the 2 in the 1st place... As for karai I do not care for spies and black ops but she is just shredder's unique b!tch n helped the turtles a couple of times thats all.

Dude,I am not comparing them. I just posted that they were my favorite villains of the 2003 cartoon is all. I thought they were well characterizaed and layered with their alligence always waivering. Is it similar? Not really.

[Mr.Turtle]

bishop shud be compared with orokusaki the shredder. n perhaps bishop is a a lil bit stronger coz after all he is a pro alien hunter.

[Impervium Gem]

Up to you in a fanfic.

You're right there, though it would have been great to get some real information. I usually hope someone else does it. *chuckles*

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

You're right there, though it would have been great to get some real information. I usually hope someone else does it. *chuckles*

Just write some fanfic about one ordinary day in Dimension X when Bebop and Rocksteady got lost in the Technodrome, describig everything they go through that day. Doesn't need to involve the TMNT, just a reference abouht the last time the TMNT defeated them could work.

[Impervium Gem]

Just write some fanfic about one ordinary day in Dimension X when Bebop and Rocksteady got lost in the Technodrome, describig everything they go through that day. Doesn't need to involve the TMNT, just a reference abouht the last time the TMNT defeated them could work.

Oh, good idea. In my case Krang is the one I feel most comfortable with, perhaps I'll write something about him at a time the Technodrome was being constructed. He must have had precise wishes for the battlestation's inventory as he would never count on coincidences. Such projects are new to me though so I can't say if and when that might occur.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Oh, good idea. In my case Krang is the one I feel most comfortable with, perhaps I'll write something about him at a time the Technodrome was being constructed. He must have had precise wishes for the battlestation's inventory as he would never count on coincidences. Such projects are new to me though so I can't say if and when that might occur.

Technodrome construction sounds great.

[Impervium Gem]

Technodrome construction sounds great.

There are probably more options, sometimes everything seems limited but at a later point new ideas might pop up after all.

How about yourself? Have you ever written anything related to the TMNT villains or is there any you would like to write about in future?

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

There are probably more options, sometimes everything seems limited but at a later point new ideas might pop up after all.

How about yourself? Have you ever written anything related to the TMNT villains or is there any you would like to write about in future?

Would like to write. I hope you have seen the "Exile of Krang" fanfic on this website, written by someone here in 2004.

[Impervium Gem]

Would like to write. I hope you have seen the "Exile of Krang" fanfic on this website, written by someone here in 2004.

Actually I just finished reading it. The writer did a brilliant job. I think I'll have to re-read it again this evening as it is absolutely fantastic. *wibbles*

Hadn't checked out the fanfic section yet, thanks for the tip. Have mostly looked around the board to get used to everything - and began re-watching the '87 episodes. I'm sure I'll be able to notice things I hadn't at first. It's always lots of fun to discover more and more details about the characters, history and surroundings to get a proper feeling for the story.

Whom would you enjoy writing about (if I may ask)? :)

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Actually I just finished reading it. The writer did a brilliant job. I think I'll have to re-read it again this evening as it is absolutely fantastic. *wibbles*

Hadn't checked out the fanfic section yet, thanks for the tip. Have mostly looked around the board to get used to everything - and began re-watching the '87 episodes. I'm sure I'll be able to notice things I hadn't at first. It's always lots of fun to discover more and more details about the characters, history and surroundings to get a proper feeling for the story.

Whom would you enjoy writing about (if I may ask)? :)

About Technodrome construction? Maybe on Fanfictin Net. Thre is however an episode about it, think it's "Shreeka's Revenge".

[Impervium Gem]

About Technodrome construction? Maybe on Fanfictin Net. Thre is however an episode about it, think it's "Shreeka's Revenge".

That would be awesome if you wrote something! FF.net is a good page indeed.

And Shreeka is quite the lady, it was funny how she went shopping to look perfect during her stay on Earth. :D I like Tempestra too, though. Wouldn't have expected a villainess to be trapped in a video game and then find her way into the real world after such a long time. Who would expect evil in a game anyway? Unless one is a worried parent that is.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

That would be awesome if you wrote something! FF.net is a good page indeed.

And Shreeka is quite the lady, it was funny how she went shopping to look perfect during her stay on Earth. :D I like Tempestra too, though. Wouldn't have expected a villainess to be trapped in a video game and then find her way into the real world after such a long time. Who would expect evil in a game anyway? Unless one is a worried parent that is.

So Tempestra is some kind of alien?

[Impervium Gem]

She seems to be. Incredible how many different races are present in the show anyway. Sometimes it's a pity that we don't know that much about them, where they come from, why they are on Earth, etc.

[MikeandRaph87]

I had a fanfiction idea that she was a human weatherwoman who was willingly subjected to a mutant experiment of Titanus and became his bodyguard. She was captured by drainning her lightning power into a highly advanced micochip and as a bizarre punishment was sentenced to perament imprisisonment in a retro arcade game made around the microchip she was captured in in which was transported close to a century in the the past quietly placed among other arcade games. Maybe its a crazy idea but it works for me.:tsmile:

[Impervium Gem]

That sounds like a cool idea! People do a lot to gain power or increase it and she would have her reasons for participating in such an experiment. It'd definitely be plausible that she was a weatherwoman; same with draining her lightning powers. Reading more about this would be awesome. :)

[MikeandRaph87]

That sounds like a cool idea! People do a lot to gain power or increase it and she would have her reasons for participating in such an experiment. It'd definitely be plausible that she was a weatherwoman; same with draining her lightning powers. Reading more about this would be awesome. :)

People always complain about the weather and know they can't trust the Weartherman/woman so with no respect and technology that can tell weather just as accurate as she could to an audience is bound to get her flustrated and decide to take control of the weather. Titanus,a mutant of the future had mutant experiments that went beyond the mutate into the last animal in contact with so its possible his experiments could have created Tempestra a hotheaded and disrespected weatherwoman for the future Channel Six.

[Impervium Gem]

WOW!!! Your ideas are gorgeous - that must have enraged her to experience barely anything else than disrespect. Also it would be a fascinating example of what such remarks towards someone might cause in their heads, leading to hatred and the desire to control what they know best, wanting those who looked down upon them to regret their previous behaviour as well as many innocent creatures. Observing those whose eagerness, affection or rejection slowly change into cruel obsessions is often worrying, yet a fascination at times. Unless it's in real life of course.

[AT-Man]

I've always liked Hun. He's great as a thug for even a bigger villain or as a leader himself. Except for Karai, he's one of the few "plain" human foes of TMNT who can kick their asses. And he looks like he's out of WWE, heck yeah!!!

[corvus]

Hun and complete carnage. Idk why, I just like them both.

[Newton Gimmick]

I loved the idea of Fly Baxter.

Also Deathwatch.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I loved the idea of Fly Baxter.

Also Deathwatch.

Who came up with that as an idea? I just know it's based on the Fly movies.