Do you feel the Mirage Turtles always seemed depressed?

[CyberCubed]

One of the themes of Mirage is, "Life at best is bittersweet."

For some reason when I read through the Mirage books the Turtles always strike me as being depressed in many of the issues. I know in tons of issues they're having some terrible things being done to them, but this happens in every series and they usually bounce back.

Its hard for me to pinpoint exactly what I am talking about, but in most stories the Turtles just seem... "adrift," or aimless...and many of themes have to do with them feeling like they were growing apart from one another, (in City at War, Volume 2, Tales issues, Future Turtles).

Anyone else think this?

[Venom]

I know exactly what you mean, and it comes through quite strongly in the books while reading them. It's not necessarily a bad feeling, because it's a very human emotion, but then again I also like the feeling the book exudes because it feels "real".

The Turtles feel more alive in the comics because they deal with "normal" crap like the rest of us: family issues, existential crises, etc.

It probably has a lot to do with the fact that Turtles really wasn't intended to go beyond the first issue, and Eastman and Laird have both states at times that they sort of winged it with the following issues before forming a cohesive vision of the group, which was to ultimately follow them through their lives up to their deaths as much older Turtles.

In some ways, and I've noted this is another topic, but reading through the old books with the knowledge of what was going on during those times with Kevin, Peter, and Mirage, one can pick up on the vibes during the changing eras of the franchise.

Weird, yeah I know, but I love these goofy ass creations so much! There is definitely an air of aloofness to the series, but I feel it's a reflection not only to the Turtles themselves, but also to those who created them and crafted their tales.

[Genesis]

If ever they got that feeling absolutely right, it was in City At War. I do remember reading some Tales issues that kind of tried for the same feeling, but it just never was quite as effective.

[Cipher]

If ever they got that feeling absolutely right, it was in City At War. I do remember reading some Tales issues that kind of tried for the same feeling, but it just never was quite as effective.I could express my love for the characterization in City at War (and to a lesser extent Volume 2) all day. It's a really smart book, and the best TMNT has ever done by quite a large margin.

But yeah, the Mirage universe as a whole is pretty depressing. That's what I love about it. Despite the hordes of aliens, ninjas, Lovecraftian monsters, time-traveling wackiness, rotating artists and indie-surrealism that infiltrates their lives on a regular basis, the series as a sweeping whole sees a group of real, discontent people who are discontent for real, understandable reasons.

And then they all get old and die.

[CyberCubed]

You get such a different vibe from the cartoons, movies, Archie or even IDW TMNT in comparison.

They go through almost the same type of adventures in all of them, but at the end of the day they're pretty much always happy and come back from an adventure with no worries.

I know most of them are for kids, but even in the IDW book the Turtles don't seem to have that same type of realism to them as Mirage did.

[Cipher]

I know most of them are for kids, but even in the IDW book the Turtles don't seem to have that same type of realism to them as Mirage did.And it's a major reason I haven't really been following that book. (Though I wish it well if any members of its creative team happen to read this.) It's fine for what it is, but it isn't what I want or have previously enjoyed in my older-audience Turtles comics.

To be honest, the Mirage universe was such an odd blend of earnest comic-book heroics and bleak realism (and surrealism), I don't think we'll ever see anything like it again. It was the product of some really bizarre circumstances.

As sort of an aside, I'd like to call attention to a letter published in the back of one of the Volume 2 issues. Someone called the books "beautiful and sad." I think that's dead-on for what they were publishing at the time, and it's my favorite tone for the series overall.

[Mewzard]

Now, I haven't read a lot of the Mirage run (I'm through the first two hardcovers of the series, so the first 11 issues and the four micro series), but I can agree with this to a degree. Sure, they do have their moments when things end up alright, but it is somewhat darker.

Death is closer at a few points, they receive some serious blows, and end up in some emotional times. But, I also think they stay strong regardless, and that's something I enjoy. Even when separated, or beaten down, they hold out, and fight back. They're enjoyable characters, and I can't wait to read more.

[Cipher]

Now, I haven't read a lot of the Mirage run (I'm through the first two hardcovers of the series, so the first 11 issues and the four micro series), but I can agree with this to a degree. Sure, they do have their moments when things end up alright, but it is somewhat darker.I almost qualified my first post with "except for the first 15 issues."

The first 11 issues and micro-series are just Eastman and Laird having some gritty, comic-book fun. The tone is really going to change; you're in for a ride.

[Andrew NDB]

I know most of them are for kids, but even in the IDW book the Turtles don't seem to have that same type of realism to them as Mirage did.

Every time it seems like it does, we turn around and there's things like, "Oh look, here's Michelangelo's human friend Woody, the pizza man who is totally cool with mutant turtles!" that pretty well yank me out of things.

But I'm trying.

[CyberCubed]

I think in terms of IDW, we've seen the best characterisation with Splinter. His micro was the best and added much needed depth to his character.

Its early for IDW TMNT though. Issues #1-12 are all pretty much one big story arc. We'll see if they go through the highs and lows of their Mirage counterparts. I don't know if they can top Mirage's best issues though.

The Mirage TMNT universe just seems more realistic and sad than any of the others. Even the Image series continued this tone, which was nice given the completely different writers.

[Kendamu]

Even if it weren't for Woody or other things like that within the IDW series, I don't really think that enough has really happened to realistically give the Turtles that sense of discontent. As soon as they could start to approach that, Raphael was found and then things just took off from there. While the actual storytelling process has been a slow one, if you really look at it altogether the Turtles haven't really had a moment to breathe in IDW.

If any time is dedicated to some sort of post-Foot aftermath in the upcoming books, we just might get to see a bit more of that. I wouldn't necessarily bet on it as IDW isn't really giving off a vibe that's trying to imitate any particular thing that's come before; even if they are borrowing from the OT's pool of characters more heavily than initially expected.

Back on Mirage, I think if Image had got to have a proper conclusion back during its original run, the Turtles might've come off a bit more content. Somehow, in spite of everything that had happened to them throughout the run, they seemed more alive then than they ever had since the early Volume 1 days. Maybe I read into Image a bit differently than some people, but that's how I see it.

[PizzaPower]

i think the depressed feeling gives Mirage TMNT a darker outlook, even darker then IDW's TMNT. Personally I think Mirage TMNT is the BEST TMNT there is.

[pannoni1]

The pace of Mirage just goes by so quickly that there is rarely time for the turtles to really have so fun and feel content. That said, if you know where to look there are still occasions when the turtles look a little less depressing, in particular Michelangelo. It does provide a feeling that the Mirage Turtles are the strongest, wittiest fighters that can take out their enemies the quickest.

[corvus]

City at war was ridiculous as far as this goes.

[AquaParade]

God, I love City at War.

[CyberCubed]

God, I love City at War.

And thank goodness IDW is releasing that in Ultimate Collections #4 and 5.

Truly the best TMNT story arc they ever did.

[Bobby Curnow]

The melancholia in mid-to-late Mirage is some of my favorite TMNT stuff ever. Leo hunting in Northampton, some of the passages in The River, Vol. 2, City at War as others mentioned... the opportunity to just ease up on the gas pedal and see what's going on in the character's minds. It's lovely stuff.

(First off, no one should worry about saying negative things about IDW... we won't be offended, especially in regards to comparison to Mirage. We'll never be Mirage, we're going to do other awesome stuff, but we'll never be able to capture the awesomeness specific to Mirage. If we tried I think it would come off pretty poor)

I do think that depressed quality is something that really has to come from the vision of the artists involved. The IDW story might go in that direction one day, and we've definitely got 'bummer' moments coming up, and story lines that will inspire a lot of doubt in the Turtles... but... Kevin these days is very much 'go go go' action, and Tom is just not a depressed dude in any shape or form (or he hides it VERY well!). And I think that all influences our stories a lot. Like I said, very heavy stuff is going to happen, and I can also see us slowing the pace down at times... but in general that stuff is difficult today in modern comic books. A lot of it has to do with format. 22 pages a month isn't that much time to tell a story. When you've got 40+ pages, it's easier to have a couple pages of Turtles sitting around, being bummed (which again, I say as a compliment, I love that stuff). Micros and minis help, like with Yoshi having a couple panels to mediate on a rock but... you just don't see what we're talking about much anymore outside stand alone graphic novels. Which I do think is too bad, but whenever it happens you hear people complaining that nothing is happening. At least I see that with other books like the Walking Dead, and I'm like 'really? can't they just sit around for an issue and it be okay?' To each their own.

So I think there's a couple reasons Mirage was able to pull it off... the page count, the creative freedom that comes from working on your own creation (you can indulge such tendencies), and I'm sure the success of TMNT probably, paradoxically, created some sense of loneliness and being overwhelmed in it's creators. I think that's the main reason you don't see the same level of depression in the first 11 issues. The future was bright, but with not as much responsibility that would come with managing a huge media empire later.

Anyway, I'm really rambling, but I think this topic is fascinating, and I think this quality of the Mirage TMNT is one of the reasons why it is so thoroughly unique and wonderful.

[corvus]

That and return to new york were great. The turtles were just really depressed.

[Cipher]

So I think there's a couple reasons Mirage was able to pull it off... the page count, the creative freedom that comes from working on your own creation (you can indulge such tendencies), and I'm sure the success of TMNT probably, paradoxically, created some sense of loneliness and being overwhelmed in it's creators. I think that's the main reason you don't see the same level of depression in the first 11 issues. The future was bright, but with not as much responsibility that would come with managing a huge media empire later. This is pretty much what I was thinking when I said it was "the product of some really bizarre circumstances."

I really think the combination of it being essentially an independent/underground comic and, at the same time, part of a blossoming media empire, helped lead to the unique tone of the book. It helped direct how readers saw the book, the resources they were able to throw into it, what the creators were going through, and who they brought on to contribute.

I don't expect a modern, 22-pages-per-month, sales-conscious action comic to be able to replicate that, and it's totally fine, even if it's not my personal cup o' tea.

By the way, it's really cool to have IDW staff weighing in even on topics like this. And it's even more cool to finally have a company putting these stories in front of larger audiences. (Case in point, Mewzard saying he's just gotten into the Mirage series.)

[Killer Moth]

It also doesn't help that "Sons of the Silent Age" and other such stories give a good reason to be depressed, as per no proper reproduction and no genetic legacy, to borrow a phrase from TMNT Entity. Furthermore, from the audience's perspective, the few glimpses into the Turtles' future are the most depressing (except for maybe Future Raph's fight against Karai, which was unintentionally bizarre and Future Leo's affair with Radical, which was just... yeah). At least, with the Turtles' angst, it was before the rise of the current Dark Age, where every comic character in existence has to have dysfunction in some form. Which explains, to use a Marvel character, Squirrel Girl's new popularity. No wonder she's so out-of-place in the current 616 universe, as she probably is the least screwed-up character of them all.

And yet, to Mirage's credit, it does show rather well as to why hanging around with the Turtles isn't as awesome as one would think. Odds are you'll be dead or worse (and the rest to what CyberCubed said about the realism). It isn't the Turtles' fault, per se, but they are danger or weird danger magnets. I think TMNT Entity made this point in regards with Shadow and Issue 69 -- which may be the most depressing issue of all -- and it's a good one. (Made even worse by Raph becoming aware of what will happen to Shadow, and put in the ultimate damned-if-you-do/don't situation.)

Anyway, I'll stop here, other than to say it's hard to top Mr. Curnow's post for many reasons. Excellent observations, all.

[CyberCubed]

I think it probably helped matters that the Turtles personalities weren't exaggerated to their extremes.

Raphael wasn't always the angry one, Michelangelo didn't really do anything clownish or stupid, Donatello while always being the most intelligent...didn't come up with a million and one inventions for the lair, and Leonardo didn't always lead everyone in every issue.

[Donnie]

I think it probably helped matters that the Turtles personalities weren't exaggerated to their extremes.

Raphael wasn't always the angry one, Michelangelo didn't really do anything clownish or stupid, Donatello while always being the most intelligent...didn't come up with a million and one inventions for the lair, and Leonardo didn't always lead everyone in every issue.

Great topic, and I will definitely echo your statement here.

As others have stated, this is the stuff that makes Mirage wonderful. There's always something very beautiful in the melancholy induced writing of the later Mirage issues, although I would argue that you see it also in some of the earlier issues such as #11, and especially #12 concerning Donatello. I believe Peter Laird wrote the bulk of that issue, which brings me to my next point.

Peter Laird. I honestly believe that although he and Eastman completed the Turtles as a team, Laird's writing style was (and has proven to be throughout the years) much more in depth and analytical than Kevin's. Thus, Volume 4 is insanely character driven, save perhaps for Raphael in the later issues.

[Andrew NDB]

Great topic, and I will definitely echo your statement here.

As others have stated, this is the stuff that makes Mirage wonderful. There's always something very beautiful in the melancholy induced writing of the later Mirage issues, although I would argue that you see it also in some of the earlier issues such as #11, and especially #12 concerning Donatello. I believe Peter Laird wrote the bulk of that issue, which brings me to my next point.

Peter Laird. I honestly believe that although he and Eastman completed the Turtles as a team, Laird's writing style was (and has proven to be throughout the years) much more in depth and analytical than Kevin's. Thus, Volume 4 is insanely character driven, save perhaps for Raphael in the later issues.

I think Peter and Kevin together, collectively, created a wonderful creative dichotomy. Things could go "deep" but still turn around and show a great deal of teeth and grit... be it outer space adventures or dealing with the Foot and/or Foot ramifications. Either man by himself, you can tell when you read one of their TMNT stories that something is missing.

That said, I'd still take a Kevin Eastman solo TMNT comic over a Peter Laird solo TMNT comic. Though I dunno... if each man entirely drew each issue himself? I mean, one 48 page TMNT comic written, pencilled, inked and toned by Kevin Eastman vs. a 48 page TMNT comic written, pencilled, inked and toned by Peter Laird? I'd still probably lean Eastman, but that'd be tough to choose. That we've gotten so much Laird content in recent years -- albeit, not so much in the art department -- tends to make me favor Eastman.

[FoxZerro]

I think the depression is necessary to highlight the family aspect of things.

I know that may seem weird but it makes sense. I mean if the things that these characters go through happened to just one person who is alone it would probably drive them insane. Having that family to experience things with or to fall back on when they experience something on their own, is what helps keeps the Turtles kicking. Looking at issue 11 they are all dealing with their defeat in their own way and not having much success with it. Yet when they come together that is when the healing can begin.

Plus throughout most of the Mirage stuff they're still young. Which is what makes the whole Future aspect so interesting. By that time they've grown and learned how to approach things on their own, still that doesn't mean on some level they wouldn't prefer it being like when they were teenagers, when they could just sit, train, and laugh together. I think in their own way each one of the Turtles would want to go back to that, but know that they can't. This can specifically be seen when you look at Donatello in the future and the fact that he has created a computer almost entirely for the purpose of virtually recreating his Brothers.

[corvus]

If I remember For the first few issues Michelangelo didn't seem to have a personality at all...

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

It's how Mirage shall be. There are children/family-friendlier TMNT versions, like the 1987 show, if you don't like that much.

[Billbeaux]

Others have already touched on what I would consider most of the key points:

*Pervasive sense of disconnect with the world around them (heck, you could make a similar case for April and Casey, as C@W illustrated to one degree or another.)

*No "genetic legacy."


To that I would add the fact that the Mirage series proper is essentially one long denouement. Leo addresses this fact--albeit somewhat indirectly--in C@W when he expresses frustration (perhaps with a dash of resentment) at having to continue to fight "Splinter's war" long after they'd put Saki on ice. I'd post the actual quote, which I always found to be quite poignant, but I'm nowhere near my collection at the moment and don't want to garble it. Can I trust someone with a steel trap memory or a longbox within arm's reach to come riding to the rescue? :twink:


It probably also has something to do with the fact that while the Mirage Turtles' moral compasses are typically in good working order, they aren't do-gooders so much as sh*t magnets.

[Billbeaux]

If I remember For the first few issues Michelangelo didn't seem to have a personality at all...


For my own part, I always thought of Mirage Mike as essentially being a "normal guy."

[CyberCubed]

Mirage Mike still liked having fun though. Just look at his Micro, he's all excited about Christmas and borrows a boys sled just to have some fun.

[Logan]

I attribute the Turtles' tendency toward sadness partially because they are moody teenagers and, as I've stated before on this board, they're ultimately the only ones of their kind. They're destined to face this challenge alone, as dramatic as it sounds (which it is).

[Cipher]

Leo addresses this fact--albeit somewhat indirectly--in C@W when he expresses frustration (perhaps with a dash of resentment) at having to continue to fight "Splinter's war" long after they'd put Saki on ice. I'd post the actual quote, which I always found to be quite poignant, but I'm nowhere near my collection at the moment and don't want to garble it."I would gladly die for (Splinter) ... but ... I don't know if I can give him my life."

[CyberCubed]

The best part of Mirage is aside from the Shredder stuff, the series had no real direction. That means the Turtles were never on a quest to save the world or right wrongs or anything, they just were aimlessly pulled into directions they didn't want to go.

There were no major story arcs planned after Return to New York, hence why Volume 1 went into filler land for a while before City at War started.

As people have noticed, Volume 4 seemed to have no overall direction either after Splinter's death, with the Turtles all just wandering into their own little mishaps.

I think oddly enough the fact that the Mirage universe had no overall story waiting to be told after the Turtles killed Shredder a second time probably helped matters. There were no new "big bads" or "world changing events" happening in Mirage like you see in other comics every few years.

[marcelangelo]

This is pretty much what I was thinking when I said it was "the product of some really bizarre circumstances."

I really think the combination of it being essentially an independent/underground comic and, at the same time, part of a blossoming media empire, helped lead to the unique tone of the book. It helped direct how readers saw the book, the resources they were able to throw into it, what the creators were going through, and who they brought on to contribute.

I don't expect a modern, 22-pages-per-month, sales-conscious action comic to be able to replicate that, and it's totally fine, even if it's not my personal cup o' tea.

By the way, it's really cool to have IDW staff weighing in even on topics like this. And it's even more cool to finally have a company putting these stories in front of larger audiences. (Case in point, Mewzard saying he's just gotten into the Mirage series.)

..just wanted to come by on this thread and say thank you for creating that thougt at all..I definatelly feel that same way about them and it is quite beautiful that sad and pretty are so close together..just like in real life at times.oh my, these ARE special comics and I hope many get to enjoy and discover them through the idw collections..
you know yesterday I was finally able to frame and hang up my a.c. farley running through the sewers poster which was the cover to issue#1 of volume 2 and to me this painting on so many levels just speaks out these feelings that many of you have found here...

[Rooish]

I always loved that the Mirage turtles were depressed. I didn't really think of it as "depression" when I read the comics while I was younger, but now I do--Leo, Don and Raph seemed to revel in misery at times, especially in Return to New York and City at War. And Raphael's micro. And their time in Northhampton. And Leonardo: Blind Sight, and most of Tales 2 in fact. Mike usually seemed a little too simple and laid-back to go down as far as his bros.

I wonder if this had to do with the Mirage staff being depressed. I got the impression that several of them--Peter Laird, Murphy, Lawson--had their struggles. To me the Turtles' depression was always refreshing and interesting, but I have a kind of depressing personality too.

[ChromeDome]

I, unfortunately, missed out on the Mirage comics but after reading what everyone has said about them here, I'm definitely going to check them out. I need to catch up on these!