Republicans push for an amendment that would ban abortion; even if the woman is raped

[psych23232323]

Apparently, the Republican Party is trying to get a "human life amendment" pushed through that would make abortion illegal; even in cases of rape or incest.

They want to basically have the Fourteenth Amendment of the US Constitution to apply to unborn babies as well.

Mitt Romney; representing the Republican Party in this year's Presidential Election; is supporting that abortion should be illegal but should be allowed in cases of rape.

His VP Candidate, Paul Ryan, was against abortion, even in cases of rape, but has changed his tone to allow abortion in rape circumstances.

Todd Akin, a U.S. senate candidate, made statements of how pregnancy can't occur if a woman is raped; something along the lines of her tension from the rape causes hormones to be released that prevent pregnancy from occurring; something like that.

Romney and Ryan are against his statements but it's now become a hot issue.


I personally would not support an anti-abortion law. I just don't like the government taking away rights from people that they've been entitled to have for a long time.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/21/todd-akin-gop-platform-rape_n_1818532.html

[Spitfire]

Won't ever happen. Even if it did pass it would take one person to die from an illegal basement abortion for them to revoke it. I think the Republicans are trying campaign with insanity this time around. Every week they come up with some crazy thing they want to do.

[Leo656]

I was gonna say the same exact thing, bro. I think it's pretty clear this election is fixed (like they all are). It's the same script as 1996, weak Democrat candidate whose biggest hook is that he's not his opponent.

In fact, anyone notice that as soon as it looked like Romney might actually win, he and his associates started acting batsh*t crazy? I swear it's fixed, and they'r just not "supposed" to win this time, and are taking no chances. Obama will win, then in 4 years the Repulican candidate will win. You start to see patterns if you pay close enough attention to this nonsense.

[Cure]

I remember when these threads were locked right away.

[Jester]

I remember when these threads were locked right away.
Yeah....those were the days.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

At least the Chick-Fil-A thread wasn't so controversial, and fizzled out on its own.

[Leo656]

I still fundamentally disagree with the idea that a bunch of grown-ups can't discuss grown-up things on a message board.

[mysterycolor]

I still fundamentally disagree with the idea that a bunch of grown-ups can't discuss grown-up things on a message board.
i agree, i wish more topics could be freely discussed.

[Xav]

I personally would not support an anti-abortion law. I just don't like the government taking away rights from people that they've been entitled to have for a long time. I personally don't like abortion. I support giving rights to those who don't have them.
I still fundamentally disagree with the idea that a bunch of grown-ups can't discuss grown-up things on a message board. And you actually think conspiracy theories are grown-up things?

[Jester]

I personally support giving rights to those who don't have them.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
- Declaration of Independence (emphasis mine)

[mysterycolor]

I was gonna say the same exact thing, bro. I think it's pretty clear this election is fixed (like they all are). It's the same script as 1996, weak Democrat candidate whose biggest hook is that he's not his opponent.

In fact, anyone notice that as soon as it looked like Romney might actually win, he and his associates started acting batsh*t crazy? I swear it's fixed, and they'r just not "supposed" to win this time, and are taking no chances. Obama will win, then in 4 years the Repulican candidate will win. You start to see patterns if you pay close enough attention to this nonsense.

what patterns? let's take a look at the amount of time each party has controlled office- starting in 2012 and working our way back...
current- 4yrs democratic party (obama)
8yrs republican party (g.w. bush)
8yrs democratic party (clinton)
12yrs republican party (g.h.w bush & reagan)
4 yrs democratic party (carter)
8 yrs republican party (ford & nixon)
8yrs democratic party (kennedy & johnson)
4 yrs republican party (eisenhower)
20yrs democratic party (Roosevelt & Truman)

the serving 8yrs and switching parties stops with George H.W. Bush, as he only served one term... technically if you are looking for patterns we are more likely to only see Obama serve one term because out of the 12 names (excludes Obama) only 5 have successfully served 2 (or more) full terms as president.

[Candy Kappa]

The US politicians are a lot more entertaining then ours.

[psych23232323]

I remember when these threads were locked right away.

I was just posting what was currently happening; kept seeing it on news sites I visit, so I thought it was important for people to know.

If it's going to cause problems, then I'll stop posting. I'd delete them but there's no way I can do that.

There should be a feature that allows me to delete posts if they are going to cause problems for people.

[Katie]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
- Declaration of Independence (emphasis mine)

So if, God forbid, your wife was violently raped and became pregnant from that rape (yes, senator Akin, that can happen) you would want herf to carry that child to term and give birth to it......a daily 9 month reminder of that rape?

I probably would never have an abortion unless I was raped or would die from carrying the child. But I'm also not going to tell some other woman how to handle her body....and I'm definitely not for old white men making laws that dictate what I can or can't do with my own reproductive health.

[oldmanwinters]

I usually try to avoid these types of threads like the plague, but I think Jester deserves a little back-up as the poor token conservative.

Rape, under any circumstances is a horrible thing. But even that doesn't give the victimized mother a right to take away her unborn child's life.

[ZariusTwo]

I usually try to avoid these types of threads like the plague, but I think Jester deserves a little back-up as the poor token conservative.

Rape, under any circumstances is a horrible thing. But even that doesn't give the victimized mother a right to take away her unborn child's life.

Very much agreed. Abortion is a selfish and murderous act. Take the positives out such a harrowing experiance and deal with the issue like a grown-up.

[PAAATE]

It's fighting abortion that's a selfish act. Trying to impose your beliefs on another person, because.... Why? Why do people feel the need to invade other peoples privacy like that? Some people believe abortion is wrong, they will never have one. Fine. That's their decision, I don't care. Some people believe it's right. They might get one. Fine, okay. Once again, I don't care.

Why do we care what other people do, as long as it doesn't affect us? It's such a disgusting, authoritarian state of mind. I mean, for all the liberty, independence and freedom that Americans like to talk about, some of you sure like to remove those same values from other individuals.

Very much agreed. Abortion is a selfish and murderous act. Take the positives out such a harrowing experiance and deal with the issue like a grown-up.

Are you ****ing kidding me? "Positives" of rape... I mean, sure. Between the physical and emotional trauma, I'm sure it's a ****ing party.

[The Stryker]

Raise the baby of the man that raped you! Hey! You didn't want to have sex or get impregnated that day but you got both! Bonus! Look at the positives! Now you're forced to raise a baby you don't want! All that joy and wonder of spending money and resources to raise the child of a rapist is now yours!

Oh boy! Rape me now!

[Xav]

Raise the baby of the man that raped you! Hey! You didn't want to have sex or get impregnated that day but you got both! Bonus! Look at the positives! Now you're forced to raise a baby you don't want! All that joy and wonder of spending money and resources to raise the child of a rapist is now yours!

Oh boy! Rape me now!Well that's an extreme example, but even than there's always adoption.

It's fighting abortion that's a selfish act. Trying to impose your beliefs on another person, because.... Why? Why do people feel the need to invade other peoples privacy like that? Some people believe abortion is wrong, they will never have one. Fine. That's their decision, I don't care. Some people believe it's right. They might get one. Fine, okay. Once again, I don't care.

Why do we care what other people do, as long as it doesn't affect us? It's such a disgusting, authoritarian state of mind. I mean, for all the liberty, independence and freedom that Americans like to talk about, some of you sure like to remove those same values from other individuals.Because a lot people think abortion is murder, and don't think people should have the right to murder their own children.

[PAAATE]

Well that's an extreme example, but even than there's always adoption.

Extreme? A very real example. Sure, in an ironic voice, but still. That's the reality right there.

Because a lot people think abortion is murder, and don't think people should have the right to murder their own children.

And a lot of people don't think it's murder. Once again, why do you care? Should we ban meat since a lot of people think that's murder?

And don't say "Meat is something natural, we're designed to eat blah-blah-blah", because we've been aborting pregnancies since we learned how pregnancies work all those thousands of years ago.

[ComicBookBoy]

Let's look at it this way:
_If a man kills a woman and she is pregnant, the man gets two murder charges.
_But if a woman decides to abort (kill) her own unborn baby, she is not charged with anything.
I don't care if the baby is one week old or one year old, murder is murder.

Rape may harm a woman, but that does not give her the right to harm a little baby.

""See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.."

[Xav]

And a lot of people don't think it's murder. Once again, why do you care? Should we ban meat since a lot of people think that's murder?

And don't say "Meat is something natural, we're designed to eat blah-blah-blah", because we've been aborting pregnancies since we learned how pregnancies work all those thousands of years ago.I care because I don't like killing babies, and meat is made from animals not people.

[PAAATE]

I care because I don't like killing babies, and meat is made from animals not people.

You don't have to kill anyone. Hell, you don't even have to watch ;)

Abortions will happen whether you like it or not. Because they've always happened and always will happen, and can be traced back thousands of years and will keep happening until we as a species go extinct. The question is, how safe and humane should it be for the people involved? Should one fetus die legally or should one fetus die illegally, with the risk of a second person - the mother - also dying, and a third or fourth person ending up in jail?

People are animals, too. Just because we have a perceived intelligence that stems from us "understanding" and creating symbols like shapes and languages, doesn't make us any different from a biological standpoint. Don't fight biology!

[PAAATE]

Don't fight biology!

Hahahahaha, oh, I can't stop laughing. But you all know what I mean!!! ;)

[Jester]

So if, God forbid, your wife was violently raped and became pregnant from that rape (yes, senator Akin, that can happen) you would want herf to carry that child to term and give birth to it......a daily 9 month reminder of that rape?
Considering how my wife was conceived, she's even more pro-life than I am. It's because of her that I'm even a little leery of my once held "only in cases of rape and incest" exception for abortion. I used to feel that in most cases abortion was in fact very selfish. Someone's poor choices in their sexual life means that a child's life is forfeit? Really? Not taking necessary precautions before the fact and then just destroying the consequence of that inaction seems wrong, BUT in the case of rape that choice is taken from the woman, and thus the abortion seemed less selfish.

Then I think back to my wife, and if her mother had thought that way, I wouldn't have her. Or my son. Yes, the fact that she was conceived by such a vile act was evil, and against her mother's will, but there is some good to come of it. Heck, in trying to convince me away from my view, Angela and I have talked, and if, heaven forbid she did conceive via rape, she'd carry the baby and put it up for adoption...because she knows that any life, no matter how it got here, is precious.

[Xav]

You don't have to kill anyone. Hell, you don't even have to watch ;)So your logic is if you think something is morally wrong you should just close your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist?
Abortions will happen whether you like it or not. Because they've always happened and always will happen, and can be traced back thousands of years and will keep happening until we as a species go extinct. The question is, how safe and humane should it be for the people involved? Should one fetus die legally or should one fetus die illegally, with the risk of a second person - the mother - also dying, and a third or fourth person ending up in jail?Why have laws against murder? People murder each other ever day so why ban it? What about rape? People are gonna get raped anyway, so why make it against the law?

[PAAATE]

So your logic is if you think something is morally wrong you should just close your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist?

No, I just said you don't have to kill anyone. :P

This is a way too complex issue, I've said what I have to say, you all know where I stand, this discussion won't change anything anyway, and I'm desperately trying to work, so I'm out of here :p

[ComicBookBoy]

You don't have to kill anyone. Hell, you don't even have to watch

Abortions will happen whether you like it or not. Because they've always happened and always will happen, and can be traced back thousands of years and will keep happening until we as a species go extinct. The question is, how safe and humane should it be for the people involved? Should one fetus die legally or should one fetus die illegally, with the risk of a second person - the mother - also dying, and a third or fourth person ending up in jail?

People are animals, too. Just because we have a perceived intelligence that stems from us "understanding" and creating symbols like shapes and languages, doesn't make us any different from a biological standpoint. Don't fight biology!
We are not animals, so we shouldn't act like animals.

[Candy Kappa]

The condom is not 100% safe, neither is the pill or the spiral. Unexpected pregnancy can occur.

If such a law passes there will be a lot of strange miscarriages or back to the good old coat hanger. No woman should be forced to go though an unwanted pregnancy, especially if she was raped. If she wants to ditch it or keep it, it is her choice.

We are not animals, so we shouldn't act like animals.
suuuure...

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

If abortion is okay, then there is no moral reason against the death penalty.

To quote playwright George Bernard Shaw, you cannot bring someone back if they were executed. You cannot bring someone back after they have spent time in jail either.

[Xav]

The condom is not 100% safe, neither is the pill or the spiral. Unexpected pregnancy can occur.

If such a law passes there will be a lot of strange miscarriages or back to the good old coat hanger. No woman should be forced to go though an unwanted pregnancy, especially if she was raped. If she wants to ditch it or keep it, it is her choice.Yes but women still have to choose to have sex to get pregnant, and even if she doesn't want the baby why does she have to kill it? Why not put it up for adoption? There are plenty of people out there that want children but can't have them themselves.

[Candy Kappa]

Yes but women still have to choose to have sex to get pregnant, and even if she doesn't want the baby why does she have to kill it? Why not put it up for adoption? There are plenty of people out there that want children but can't have them themselves.

Isn't there enough parent-less children out there?

And pregnancies have their risks, it's not all flowers, sunshine and "honey i want strawberries" in the middle of the winter 2 O'clock in the morning.

Humans as well as other intelligent creatures have sex for more then just reproduction, choosing to have or not have sex is not valid to be forced to go through a pregnancy when a child is unwanted. I would never force my girlfriend to carry though a pregnancy if we got unlucky.

[ComicBookBoy]

Isn't there enough parent-less children out there?

Isn't there enough murder out there?

[Candy Kappa]

Isn't there enough murder out there?

Isn't there enough people out there?

[ComicBookBoy]

And pregnancies have their risks, it's not all flowers, sunshine and "honey i want strawberries" in the middle of the winter 2 O'clock in the morning.

And abortions have their risks:
_studies suggests that women who abort face a 50% increase in breast cancer,
_women who have experienced abortion have a 600% increase in their risk for Abruptio Placenta in future pregnancies (This can result in extreme and severe life-threatening bleeding),
_abortion causes infertility in 2-5% of the women who have an abortion,
_50% of women who have had abortions report experiencing emotional and psychological problems lasting for months or years.

[Xav]

Humans as well as other intelligent creatures have sex for more then just reproduction, choosing to have or not have sex is not valid to be forced to go through a pregnancy when a child is unwanted. I would never force my girlfriend to carry though a pregnancy if we got unlucky.Yes choosing to have sex is valid. You don't need sex to live.

[Brodie]

I read what Zarius said, and I was getting upset. But then I remembered he has a mental disability.

[The Stryker]

_50% of women who have had abortions report experiencing emotional and psychological problems lasting for months or years.

And that couldn't possibly be attributed to the situation that led to abortion or anything of course not. How about you throw out some more meaningless statistics that amount to a hill of beans. I heard if you go outside you increase your chances of getting hit by a car by 100%!

Force people to have unwanted children because of YOUR moral standing. Nobody is asking you and people like you to police the world personally.

Church going Christian here BTW. Enjoy the rape everyone! Because...well....sperm is alive apparently.

[ComicBookBoy]

And that couldn't possibly be attributed to the situation that led to abortion or anything of course not. How about you throw out some more meaningless statistics that amount to a hill of beans. I heard if you go outside you increase your chances of getting hit by a car by 100%!

Force people to have unwanted children because of YOUR moral standing. Nobody is asking you and people like you to police the world personally.

Most women have unwanted pregnancies because they were careless, not because they were raped. What I said still stands.

Church going Christian here BTW. Enjoy the rape everyone! Because...well....sperm is alive apparently.
Keep insults out of this discussion. What you said is just insulting and has no meaning in this discussion.

[The Stryker]

Most women have unwanted pregnancies because they were careless, not because they were raped. What I said still stands.


Keep insults out of this discussion. What you said is just insulting and has no meaning in this discussion.

What insults just saying that I am a church going Christian and I don't believe others should be forced to do something because of moral standings of a few others.

You have a statistic for that first one or are just going to go with what you perceive again? Even if it was the case, who cares? It's their body, their choice and their lives. Sure it's f*cked up and irresponsible but guess what? Free will homie! That's speaking for the women that just had an accident of course. Rape victims shouldn't be looked down upon for not wanting to carry on the legacy of the dude that raped them.

[ComicBookBoy]

What insults just saying that I am a church going Christian and I don't believe others should be forced to do something because of moral standings of a few others.

Originally Posted by The Stryker
Church going Christian here BTW. Enjoy the rape everyone!
Sorry about that, I thought you were saying that church going Christians enjoy the rape. I misunderstood you.

[Candy Kappa]

This is as stupid as the law that states a rapist can marry his victim to avoid persecution, heck they could go hand in hand. Let the rapist marry the victim if she gets pregnant from the rape, so the child won't be born out of wedlock.

this article and view points makes me sick to my stomach of this, let's give a f*ck about women's rights and care more about someone that is unborn then the living. had this been just another anti-abortion viewpoint it would be an eye roller, but it's about rape. Shall we blame the victim as well, was she showing her knees. she practically asked to be raped no abortion for you. F*ck this sh*t

[ComicBookBoy]

You have a statistic for that first one or are just going to go with what you perceive again? Even if it was the case, who cares? It's their body, their choice and their lives. Sure it's f*cked up and irresponsible but guess what? Free will homie! That's speaking for the women that just had an accident of course. Rape victims shouldn't be looked down upon for not wanting to carry on the legacy of the dude that raped them.

They don't have to keep the baby as their own, they could give it to an adoption agency. If you had to choose whether to live at an adoption agency or be put to death which would you choose?

[Andrew NDB]

The way things are going, they really ought to be encouraging, perhaps even forcing abortions in some cases... not banning them.

[Dirty Blond]

And you actually think conspiracy theories are grown-up things?

http://youtu.be/0CrggAPwDEY

[Master Splinter]

This is as stupid as the law that states a rapist can marry his victim to avoid persecution, heck they could go hand in hand. Let the rapist marry the victim if she gets pregnant from the rape, so the child won't be born out of wedlock.

This brings up an interesting thought... What kind of rights does the rapist have now that he is a father? Sure he committed a crime by raping the woman but he should still have rights as a new father correct? Could he legally keep the woman he raped from having an abortion because he is the father and wants to raise the child? What if he is very christian and believes every word out of Leviticus. Should the woman be forced to marry the man who raped her just so everything is peachy in the eyes of the lord.

I don't agree with this but it seems like many here would with the backwards thinking I am seeing in this thread. You can believe whatever you want, but if you are trying to make a law based on your religious belief then it seems as though you are crossing a line, because there is a big chance that I don't believe what you believe. So don't force your beliefs on me. If you have a problem with it, pray for me, and in the end I will deal with God on my own. I don't need your laws, guidance, or approval for that.

-ms

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

The way things are going, they really ought to be encouraging, perhaps even forcing abortions in some cases... not banning them.

What about for underage females? Can parents or guardians compel kids under their care to get an abortion, as the mother didn't have the legal right of consent?

[Andrew NDB]

What about for underage females? Can parents or guardians compel kids under their care to get an abortion, as the mother didn't have the legal right of consent?

No, but the state should probably step in at that point and sterilize the kids afterward until they're an adult. Or something.

Too many people, and at the rate and growth of resources we're expending is unsustainable. China is the model to follow, but no one will ever be the president or governor to make the tough decisions that need to happen (1, maybe 2 children per registered family, etc., and oh, you know that underage kid that squeezed out a kid? that wasn't a "freebie," that counts to the 1-2 kid total).

[ComicBookBoy]

This brings up an interesting thought... What kind of rights does the rapist have now that he is a father? Sure he committed a crime by raping the woman but he should still have rights as a new father correct? Could he legally keep the woman he raped from having an abortion because he is the father and wants to raise the child? What if he is very christian and believes every word out of Leviticus. Should the woman be forced to marry the man who raped her just so everything is peachy in the eyes of the lord.

I don't agree with this but it seems like many here would with the backwards thinking I am seeing in this thread. You can believe whatever you want, but if you are trying to make a law based on your religious belief then it seems as though you are crossing a line, because there is a big chance that I don't believe what you believe. So don't force your beliefs on me. If you have a problem with it, pray for me, and in the end I will deal with God on my own. I don't need your laws, guidance, or approval for that.

-ms
It's not that the guy who raped the woman should have a choice in whether the baby is aborted or not, it's that no one should have a choice of whether or not to kill their baby. The baby should be allowed to live without any consent from the mother or the father.

You tell me not to press my beliefs on others, and not to fuse my beliefs with the laws, but aren't you trying to do the same thing? Except you're belief is that abortion should be legal and that it's not murder.

[Master Splinter]

No, but the state should probably step in at that point and sterilize the kids afterward until they're an adult.

Too many people, and the rate and growth of resources we're expending is unsustainable. China is the model to follow, but no one will ever be the president or governor to make the tough decisions that need to happen (1, maybe 2 children per registered family, etc., and oh, you know that underage kid that squeezed out a kid? that wasn't a "freebie," that counts to the 1-2 kid total).

You are absolutely right Andrew, the world's population is growing at a crazy rate, and to a point to where we will be killing each other over natural resources... wait that's already happening!

-ms

[Candy Kappa]

You tell me not to press my beliefs on others, and not to fuse my beliefs with the laws, but aren't you trying to do the same thing? Except you're belief is that abortion should be legal and that it's not murder.

But would people that share the same view get an abortion, people have a free will. Or do you think that people are so stupid that they loose their own way of thinking just because something is legal.

Pretty sure woman did abortion when it was illegal, people was drinking alcohol during prohibition times, and some people don't drink today even thought it is legal to have a beer.

this is very akin the the anti-marijuana vs legalizing marijuana, some people think it'll be Ragnarok if it gets legal cause everyone will get high and go on a murder rampage.

[Master Splinter]

It's not that the guy who raped the woman should have a choice in whether the baby is aborted or not, it's that no one should have a choice of whether or not to kill their baby. The baby should be allowed to live without any consent from the mother or the father.

You tell me not to press my beliefs on others, and not to fuse my beliefs with the laws, but aren't you trying to do the same thing? Except you're belief is that abortion should be legal and that it's not murder.

No I am not pressing my beliefs onto you. My belief allows free-will (something God gave to us all if you believe in that sort of thing), aka a choice, a choice to believe whatever you want to believe, you can believe abortion is wrong, you can believe abortion is okay. What you decide on your own is not my decision to make. You on the other hand do not offer any sort of choice. It's either your way or the highway to hell or jail. I can understand that you feel you have a moral obligation to protect an unborn child but I feel it is my moral obligation to keep you the f.u.c.k out of my business. Your religion is not the same as mine so how can you prove that you are right and I am wrong?

-ms

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

No I am not pressing my beliefs onto you. My belief allows free-will (something God gave to us all if you believe in that sort of thing), aka a choice, a choice to believe whatever you want to believe, you can believe abortion is wrong, you can believe abortion is okay. What you decide on your own is not my decision to make. You on the other hand do not offer any sort of choice. It's either your way or the highway to hell or jail. I can understand that you feel you have a moral obligation to protect an unborn child but I feel it is my moral obligation to keep you the f.u.c.k out of my business. Your religion is not the same as mine so how can you prove that you are right and I am wrong?

-ms

Religion has nothing to do with this. Pressing beliefs upon people is done in every society. In the USA, people cannot legally drink until age 21; public accomodations (restaurants, hotels, etc.) cannot refuse service to people on the basis of race, religion, etc.; you cannot use asbestos in construction or manufacturing; you cannot have a radar detector in your vehicle in West Virginia; you cannot walk around naked in public. Society can restrict abortion if it wants to; it is not a "constitutional right".

[Xav]

Yeah, I'm against abortion not because of my religion but because of my morals.

[ComicBookBoy]

But would people that share the same view get an abortion, people have a free will. Or do you think that people are so stupid that they loose their own way of thinking just because something is legal.

Pretty sure woman did abortion when it was illegal, people was drinking alcohol during prohibition times, and some people don't drink today even thought it is legal to have a beer.

this is very akin the the anti-marijuana vs legalizing marijuana, some people think it'll be Ragnarok if it gets legal cause everyone will get high and go on a murder rampage.

So, what about just plain murder? People do it all of the time, why restrict it?
THE REASON: because if you restrict something and make punishments for them then far fewer people will murder. The same can be said for abortion.

[Andrew NDB]

I've always had a pretty tough time buying the "It's murder!" thing.

I mean, every month that a woman menstrates out an unfertilized ovum into the toilet... is she guilty of murder, because she refused to have the egg fertilized and that ovum could have been a life, even the next Albert Einstein? Of course not, that's crazy.

It seems like a slippery slope when people try to define the moment when "legitimate" life begins. If we're talking about a human zygote, then... you know... even a mosquito is more self-aware and intelligent than that at this point, so it can't be a question of quantifiable sentience.

"But it COULD become a life!" is the rallying cry I hear. But then I find myself arriving right back at the beginning of my argument in this post.

[Master Splinter]

Yeah, I'm against abortion not because of my religion but because of my morals.

And that is perfectly fine, but to make that decision for others is in my mind wrong.

So, what about just plain murder? People do it all of the time, why restrict it?
THE REASON: because if you restrict something and make punishments for them then far fewer people will murder. The same can be said for abortion.

No matter what counterpoint any of us have for or against the issue it is going to be hard to persuade the other. It's probably best that a mod close this thread asap before feelings get hurt because I would love to respond to some of this but I think I've already crossed a line replying in this thread.

-ms

[Candy Kappa]

one thing is important to say is, it's not about having an abortion whenever you want. it's no longer an option after the fetus develop consciousness and pain receptors. (It's pro-choice not pro-abortion)

The law is simple here in Norway, you can't take an abortion after week 12. after that you need a special permission due to medical reasons. The second trimester don't start until week 14 after the last menstrual period.

[Spitfire]

It still amazes me how conservatives want to actually move backwards and fight change. Shut down anything that tries to replace gas, ban abortion, take health care back to where companies can F over clients, and spending money to kick every illegal immigrant out of the country and erect some kind of super fence that they will figure out how to get past anyways. I mean really they're genius. They're philosophy is basically "If people want to make choices in their lives that I don't agree with I and don't effect me at all I want to make it illegal." On top of "If someone is stupid enough to let me rip them off that's their problem."

[PAAATE]

It still amazes me how conservatives want to actually move backwards and fight change.

Does it really, though? ;) Think about the word. Conservative :p

But yes, change is inevitable. Not everyone will like every change, I'd be the first to admit that, but change still happens. You learn to deal somehow or suddenly you're old and grumpy and everything was better before and you let yourself be consumed by anger and hatred and all of a sudden everyone hates you.

Or... something along those lines...

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

It still amazes me how conservatives want to actually move backwards and fight change. Shut down anything that tries to replace gas, ban abortion, take health care back to where companies can F over clients, and spending money to kick every illegal immigrant out of the country and erect some kind of super fence that they will figure out how to get past anyways. I mean really they're genius. They're philosophy is basically "If people want to make choices in their lives that I don't agree with I and don't effect me at all I want to make it illegal." On top of "If someone is stupid enough to let me rip them off that's their problem."

Not all change is for the better. If you pack on 300 lbs. of lard, is that a desirable change?

As far as replacing gas is concerned, forget it. Sometimes there is no replacement. Nuclear power turned out not to be a magic cure-all for our energy needs. If there is no water to drink or produce food, what do we have as a replacement? Absolutely nothing at all.

Banning abortion? The reality is that the pro-abortion people don't want any restrictions on abortion, using the emotive argument that it's oppressing women. Should we allow infanticide while we're at it?

Think national health care is so wonderful? It turns out that in nations that have it, it's not so wonderful in practice that it is in theory. One British girl on Devianart told me she hated the national health care system, and I've heard people on other forums complain that the system has become overrun with bureaucracy and politics and quality has suffered.

Kicking out illegal immigrants? Why shouldn't we? All this propaganda about "they do work Americans won't do" is bushwa. That's because they work at the American equivalent of starvation wages, and employers don't pay taxes on them. A good deal for the employers, a bad deal for the rest of us.

As for "what others choose to do doesn't affect me," also bushwa. If someone gambles their money away, what about anybody they're supposed to support, such as their wife and kids? If someone refuses to wear their seat belts while driving, that does affect society-namely in supporting someone who might be maimed for life instead of receiving relatively minor injury. So other peoples' decisions do affect you, whether you can see it or not.

Being ripped off? You can avoid being ripped off in most cases by doing basic research and taking basic precautions. Oftentimes people wind up being ripped off as a result of their own stupidity. Society isn't responsible for that.

[Katie]

This brings up an interesting thought... What kind of rights does the rapist have now that he is a father? Sure he committed a crime by raping the woman but he should still have rights as a new father correct? Could he legally keep the woman he raped from having an abortion because he is the father and wants to raise the child? What if he is very christian and believes every word out of Leviticus. Should the woman be forced to marry the man who raped her just so everything is peachy in the eyes of the lord.

I don't agree with this but it seems like many here would with the backwards thinking I am seeing in this thread. You can believe whatever you want, but if you are trying to make a law based on your religious belief then it seems as though you are crossing a line, because there is a big chance that I don't believe what you believe. So don't force your beliefs on me. If you have a problem with it, pray for me, and in the end I will deal with God on my own. I don't need your laws, guidance, or approval for that.

-ms

In 31 states the rapist does actually have parental rights. So, as a woman, you would then have to go to court again to fight for the termination of the rapists parental rights should he demand custody or visitation.

Also, in my understanding of God, God is all knowing.....your whole life is known to Him before you are even known. So, this being the case, God already knows the fate of every fetus. Why would he put a soul in something he knows isn't going to be in the world.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

one thing is important to say is, it's not about having an abortion whenever you want. it's no longer an option after the fetus develop consciousness and pain receptors. (It's pro-choice not pro-abortion)

The law is simple here in Norway, you can't take an abortion after week 12. after that you need a special permission due to medical reasons. The second trimester don't start until week 14 after the last menstrual period.

Most abortions in the USA, according to what I've heard, are performed very early in pregnancy. Abortion wouldn't even be an issue if there wasn't such a hysteria against any restrictions on it.

[Master Splinter]

In 31 states the rapist does actually have parental rights. So, as a woman, you would then have to go to court again to fight for the termination of the rapists parental rights should he demand custody or visitation.

Also, in my understanding of God, God is all knowing.....your whole life is known to Him before you are even known. So, this being the case, God already knows the fate of every fetus. Why would he put a soul in something he knows isn't going to be in the world.

So in theory a man can rape a woman, get her pregnant, have the law keep her from having an abortion, take her to court for custody, and possibly have her pay child support as well.

Wow.

-ms

[ComicBookBoy]

In 31 states the rapist does actually have parental rights. So, as a woman, you would then have to go to court again to fight for the termination of the rapists parental rights should he demand custody or visitation.

Also, in my understanding of God, God is all knowing.....your whole life is known to Him before you are even known. So, this being the case, God already knows the fate of every fetus. Why would he put a soul in something he knows isn't going to be in the world.

Each of those children who were aborted still had a soul, and God still loved them. That is why God said,
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.."
Just because God knows that those children are going to be murdered doesn't mean He is going to intervene. If God stopped every person from doing something evil then the world would be perfect.

[Katie]

Murder shouldn't be used to describe an abortion.

Murder is a legal term whereby a human knowingly and with malice ends the life of another human. For it to be murder, the fetus would have to be considered legally alive. In the legal definition of life....life begins at birth not conception.

Exceptions are sometimes made when the fetus would be viable outside the womb as in the Lacy Peterson case.

[Jester]

What abouts cases where the mother and baby are killed and the killer is charged for BOTH deaths? If a fetus isn't a life, then there shouldn't be mutiple counts of murder in those cases. You can't have it both ways.

[Katie]

See that exception thing I wrote?

Some states allow a second murder charge if the fetus is viable outside of the womb. Doubt any state would bring double murder charges if the woman was only a few weeks preggers

[Leo656]

:o The stuff I miss when I go to work... :lol:

Yeesh, all this commotion over what is, essentially, a blood clot. Madness. This one's gonna be long, I am very close to this topic and have very passionate beliefs. The easily offended know to just skip it.

You know when you're officially "a living person"? When you pop out. That's it. Not before. Anything prior to that is "A work in progress" and anything can happen. If I am on the road, just around the corner from work, but I'm not there yet, almost, but pretty close... I'm still not "at work", and I'm not given credit towards being so. Likewise, I don't count anyone as a member of the human race until they are present and accounted for... and usually, not even then. It's a rather broad, silly, and extreme way to make a point, I grant you, but all the intelligent arguements were taken already.

More on point: Abortion isn't murder, in many cases it's the RIGHT thing to do. My sister shacked up with an asshole, he beats her, he beats her in front of the kids, it's the way sh*t is with them. She had the first kid hoping he would calm down. No change, except now my 13-yr old neice has a f*cked up life and mental issues from watching her mommy get hit her whole life. My sister had several abortions since then, since she's on welfare, can't afford even ONE kid and really didn't even need that one (although I love and adore my neice), but about 6 years ago, she made another mistake (which is all it can be called when someone willingly chooses to have a baby with an abusive poiece of sh*t) and got pregnant again. This time it was gonna be a boy, so she decided "He will change when he has a son", instead he became worse than ever. He doesn't care about those kids, they ONLY represent a way for him to control my sister and make her miserable forever. She loves and adores her kids, and always talks about how they are "the reason she was made to suffer so much", b/c at least THEY got to be born... BUT she also tells me every time we talk about how as soon as her youngest is older she is absolutely going to kill herself, because she knows she made every bad decision possible and now she is paying for it. I love those kids, but I cannot stand how HER life had to be destroyed so they could exist. I will not accept it. Ever. She should NEVER have had kids; she only stayed with that piece of sh*t "for their sake" and the courts wouldn't let her leave him.

My parents never should have had kids either, they both had a few before they got together and had me, I was a complete accident, not planned for, and my parents never got along so all having me accomplished was forcing two people who hated each other to hate each other IN FRONT of ME, putting me into years of therapy and years of self-loathing, insecurity, wondering why I exist at all... it's just NOT a good way to live. And this is not self-pity, this is simply me telling it as I see it: There is nothing special about me, or my life. I'm an average guy with an average job who's going to have to work ten years after I'm dead to wipe out my debt, same as anyone and everyone else. I highly doubt I have some higher purpose, or that the world would be in ANY way different for better OR worse if I was never born. I'm not arrogant enough to think I matter. There is no reason why I had to exist, when all it did was ruin my parents' lives and erase any chance for them to find happiness with other, more suitable partners. My step-siblings hated my father so much for having me, they refused to go to his funeral, because my existence "ruined" their family. My parents only stayed together b/c of me, and every single day growing up I had to hear the fights, see the abuse, and try and convince myself it wasn't MY fault, when the only reason they stayed together at ALL was because Mom got pregnant. Now, my sister repeated our mother's mistakes, and now I have to watch and listen to HER kids go through exactly what *I* went through. It's torture.

Human life is NOT sacred. FACT. In fact, there is no life on Earth that is LESS noble than human life. We are the absolute worst offenders on the entire planet, but because we have a "higher intelligence" we convince ourselves we are special? That every single egg that has a chance at life deserves to be carried to term, no matter what? "Because they might be the next Einstein"? They could be the next f*cking Hitler, too, ever think about that? I mean this with every fiber of my soul: NO ONE should EVER have kids, under ANY circumstances. Preventative measures need to be taken by ANY means necessary, and that includes abortion. Like Andrew said, planet's (over)full. Cramming more puppies into the sack isn't going to mean anything except less air for all of them.

People have sex with people they shouldn't. That is a shame, but it has never and will never change. We can NOT just say "Well, be more selective, or don't have sex", because that goes against our genetic programming, which is far stronger than any "higher brain functions" or "morality" we PRETEND to have. You can't punish them and everyone else involved by making them have and take care of kids they didn't want, can't take care of, and whose own lives are going to be ruined by piss-poor upbringing.

And don't even mention adoption as an alternative, b/c unless you're a super-rich bleeding-heart liberal like Angelina Jolie or Rosie O'Donnell, people only want to adopt brand-new, fresh and clean, lily-white babies. Most black, Hispanic, mixed-race, crack-addicted, HIV-infected, Down's Syndrome-afflicted babies DON'T get adopted, they either linger and die OR grow up to become wards of the state, which is a nice way of saying "Future Criminals". Really fair deal, huh?

Being pregnant is not a "gift" or a "Blessing" (Go find any pregnant woman 6-7 months along and ask her how "blessed" she feels, I f*cking dare you), it's a MEDICAL CONDITION. That can be good or bad depending on circumstance. That book of make-believe and fairy-tales people cite to justify human life (but none other, and only Male human life) as sacred was written to control people's thoughts and actions during a time when the average life expectancy was 25 and half the population was dying of Plague, it has ZERO relevance anymore. None. Nada. Nothing past the "Treat others as you want to be treated" part, which is the only relevant thing in there and, ironically, the part EVERYONE ignores, while cherry-picking whatever they want to justify whatever THEY believe, and force it on others. Again, madness.

Sorry to rant, but again, I'm *really* close to this subject. Abortion is right, like it or not; not only is it *A* right, it's just plain right. You may never hear me say this again: Stryker and Andrew are absolutely right about absolutely everything they have said so far.

"Not every ejaculation needs a NAME, folks..." - George Carlin

[mysterycolor]

In the legal definition of life....life begins at birth not conception.


And there is the rub- people want to use religious definitions and beliefs about life to dictate the rights that women have over their own bodies... In the United States the scientific explanation that brings us to life beginning at birth is what we have come to accept as truth- what someone believes is right or wrong within their personal life is moot because we have the privilege of separation of church and state. It is why we dont issue social security numbers for each pregnancy and issue death certificates in the case of a miscarriage- the government simply doesnt recognize it as a human life until it is born.

[Xav]

I've always had a pretty tough time buying the "It's murder!" thing.

I mean, every month that a woman menstrates out an unfertilized ovum into the toilet... is she guilty of murder, because she refused to have the egg fertilized and that ovum could have been a life, even the next Albert Einstein? Of course not, that's crazy.

It seems like a slippery slope when people try to define the moment when "legitimate" life begins. If we're talking about a human zygote, then... you know... even a mosquito is more self-aware and intelligent than that at this point, so it can't be a question of quantifiable sentience.

"But it COULD become a life!" is the rallying cry I hear. But then I find myself arriving right back at the beginning of my argument in this post.I guess I would say when there is brain activity, when it can think and feel.

And there is the rub- people want to use religious definitions and beliefs about life to dictate the rights that women have over their own bodies... In the United States the scientific explanation that brings us to life beginning at birth is what we have come to accept as truth- what someone believes is right or wrong within their personal life is moot because we have the privilege of separation of church and state. It is why we dont issue social security numbers for each pregnancy and issue death certificates in the case of a miscarriage- the government simply doesnt recognize it as a human life until it is born.I't's not about dictating the rights that women have over their own bodies it's about giving rights to the unborn, and what does the separation of church and state have anything to do with supporting abortion or not?

[Spitfire]

Not all change is for the better. If you pack on 300 lbs. of lard, is that a desirable change?
You're gonna compare human rights to someone plowing too many cheese burgers? Sorry not a valid counter argument.

As far as replacing gas is concerned, forget it. Sometimes there is no replacement. Nuclear power turned out not to be a magic cure-all for our energy needs. If there is no water to drink or produce food, what do we have as a replacement? Absolutely nothing at all.
There's plenty of other renewable sources of energy, not that nuclear isn't still an option. Problem is it doesn't benefit big wigs financially speaking so it will never happen.

Banning abortion? The reality is that the pro-abortion people don't want any restrictions on abortion, using the emotive argument that it's oppressing women. Should we allow infanticide while we're at it?
The argument that a fetus is comparable to a living, breathing, person with a fully functional brain and self awareness is ridiculous. It can't feel. Here's a science quote for you "Fetuses are not capable of feeling pain at the beginning of the fetal stage, and may not be able to feel pain until the third trimester"

Think national health care is so wonderful? It turns out that in nations that have it, it's not so wonderful in practice that it is in theory. One British girl on Devianart told me she hated the national health care system, and I've heard people on other forums complain that the system has become overrun with bureaucracy and politics and quality has suffered.
I never said do what Europe does, I said it shouldn't be legal for health care companies to pull the crap they do. People can complain about free health care all they want but it's better then being stuck with a debt you can't afford to pay off.

Kicking out illegal immigrants? Why shouldn't we? All this propaganda about "they do work Americans won't do" is bushwa. That's because they work at the American equivalent of starvation wages, and employers don't pay taxes on them. A good deal for the employers, a bad deal for the rest of us.
Instead of attacking the immigrants themselves, who they will waste millions trying to stop, they should go after the guys who hire them. They don't do that though because those guys are the ones with the money and money changes everything.

As for "what others choose to do doesn't affect me," also bushwa. If someone gambles their money away, what about anybody they're supposed to support, such as their wife and kids? If someone refuses to wear their seat belts while driving, that does affect society-namely in supporting someone who might be maimed for life instead of receiving relatively minor injury. So other peoples' decisions do affect you, whether you can see it or not.
Yeah but how does abortion affect you? How does gay marriage affect you? It doesn't. My statement was referring to things that do you zero harm. I made that pretty clear.

Being ripped off? You can avoid being ripped off in most cases by doing basic research and taking basic precautions. Oftentimes people wind up being ripped off as a result of their own stupidity. Society isn't responsible for that.
You should be a business man. If people are stupid enough to put trust in you then abuse that trust. Perfect mentality. It's okay to pray on people with lower IQs or from low income areas with bad education systems. I mean who cares about them? They're not equal to me because I'm smarter and I have more money.

Selfish. Sad and selfish.

[Leo656]

Brain activity? That's kind of silly. There's people who are fully walking around upright, and even feed and dress themselves, yet have NO evidence of brain function at all. Many of these people even get elected to high-ranking positions of importance.

Joking aside, rights of the unborn? Who gives a F*CK about the rights of people who don't even exist beyond a possibility? Who honestly cares, when there are millions of REAL people all over the world who have their rights taken away and trampled on every single day? Don't they count? Or are we only pretending to be noble and caring in regards to those who have no minds of their own yet and haven't proven themselves incompetent? It's a serious question.

People care more about the rights of "people" who haven't even grown a brain (literally), and many of those same people never gave two cents to a domestic violence charity, or a charity to protect kids from child abuse. Yet they have very strong opinions and arguments about what life means and whether women can flush some blood down the toilet. I find that very interesting, honestly.

"If you're Pre-Born, you're Fine, if you're PreSchool, you're F*CKED!" - George Carlin

EDIT: Y'know what, screw it, he already said the Final Word on this debate YEARS ago. Here it is, and it's bulletproof. Not safe for school, work, or anyplace else. But it's all true. Bad language out the @$$, so be warned.
V9iY8Std8nQ

[mysterycolor]

I guess I would say when there is brain activity.

I't's not about dictating the rights that women have over their own bodies it's about giving rights to the unborn, and what does the separation of church and state have anything to do with supporting abortion or not?

i would like to believe you are joking...but deep down i know you arent :tsad: the connection between separation of church and state and supporting abortion is that the majority of people that argue the "rights" of the fetus are doing so based upon their religious beliefs and the biblical definition of life- and this cannot be what we base government policies on because we are not a christian nation and we do have freedom from religion and a separation of church and state.

[Xav]

The argument that a fetus is comparable to a living, breathing, person with a fully functional brain and self awareness is ridiculous. It can't feel. Here's a science quote for you "Fetuses are not capable of feeling pain at the beginning of the fetal stage, and may not be able to feel pain until the third trimester"So would you be against abortion at that stage in development?
i would like to believe you are joking...but deep down i know you arent :tsad: the connection between separation of church and state and supporting abortion is that the majority of people that argue the "rights" of the fetus are doing so based upon their religious beliefs and the biblical definition of life- and this cannot be what we base government policies on because we are not a christian nation and we do have freedom from religion and a separation of church and state.So what a nine month fetus isn't a life, but a premature birth that survives is?

[Spitfire]

So would you be against abortion at that stage in development.
So what a nine month fetus isn't a life, but a premature birth that survives is?

Considering you'd basically die if you tried to have one after I believe 22 weeks I would be against it. It's unsafe and would literally kill the Mother. No doctor in their right mind would perform one that late in the game.

[mysterycolor]

So would you be against abortion at that stage in development?
So what a nine month fetus isn't a life, but a premature birth that survives is?
according to the current definition of life, yes- just like you don't have a funeral for a miscarriage but you may for a baby that dies of complications after being birthed.

[Leo656]

I wouldn't suggest a full-blown funeral for the aborted/miscarried fetus. But out of respect, someone could at least play "Taps" on a kazoo... That's not too much to ask, I don't think.

I'm feeling nice. I only self-censor once every hundred years, and only when I'm asked VERY nicely.

[Spitfire]

Honestly that's insensitive and uncalled for. It also doesn't help any of the arguments you've made. Abortions and miscarriages are hard for women. Just because they choose to abort a baby does not mean they aren't affected by it. It hits them both mentally and psychically.

[mysterycolor]

Honestly that's insensitive and uncalled for. It also doesn't help any of the arguments you've made. Abortions and miscarriages are hard for women. Just because they choose to abort a baby does not mean they aren't affected by it. It hits them both mentally and psychically.
you are absolutely right- and that is why decisions involving pregnancy, abortion and anything else surrounding our reproductive system should be left for us to determine what is best. as if just being pregnant isnt tumultuous enough, add in a less than desirable, or absolutely tragic situation into that... and make it worse by having people hover around judging when they know nothing about what it is like. ever notice that during abortion debates people rarely bring up the situations where pregnancy has to be "terminated" because complications will result in the death of the mother- how dare anyone make that woman feel wrong for choosing to abort the fetus so she can live... it is disgusting the way we treat women in this country it is often referred to as the "invisible burka"- we may not come right out and cover our women... but politicians wont hesitate to slash their rights for a campaign promise... and the fact that it is effective proves just how deep the nastiness goes.

[Xav]

Too many people, and at the rate and growth of resources we're expending is unsustainable. China is the model to follow, but no one will ever be the president or governor to make the tough decisions that need to happen (1, maybe 2 children per registered family, etc., and oh, you know that underage kid that squeezed out a kid? that wasn't a "freebie," that counts to the 1-2 kid total).Really China is the model to follow? So we should force women to have abortions, and abort all the female fetuses so we have an imbalance of men and women?
you are absolutely right- and that is why decisions involving pregnancy, abortion and anything else surrounding our reproductive system should be left for us to determine what is best. as if just being pregnant isnt tumultuous enough, add in a less than desirable, or absolutely tragic situation into that... and make it worse by having people hover around judging when they know nothing about what it is like. ever notice that during abortion debates people rarely bring up the situations where pregnancy has to be "terminated" because complications will result in the death of the mother- how dare anyone make that woman feel wrong for choosing to abort the fetus so she can live... it is disgusting the way we treat women in this country it is often referred to as the "invisible burka"- we may not come right out and cover our women... but politicians wont hesitate to slash their rights for a campaign promise... and the fact that it is effective proves just how deep the nastiness goes.WTF, again your thinking in extremes that the only two views on abortion are abortion is ok no matter what, or ban abortion with no exceptions.

[Leo656]

You're right, Spitfire, I do have a very dark sense of humor and I somewhat, and very reluctantly, apologize. I've taken the liberty of toning down my earlier statement, as I feel the rest of it is fine, if morbid. Morbid humor is still humor.

If anything I'm desensitized because I'm a lot closer to this debate than most people who argue so passionately about it, including, I'd argue, some women. At the very least I've known a disproportionate amount of women who've had one or the other. A lot of them also use dark jokes as a defense mechanism. Sorry if you or anyone else was offended, it's not the first time I've made that joke and honestly, it WAS the first complaint I've gotten, but I can see how some wouldn't like it.

The thing is Xav, it's not an all-or-nothing, it's about choice. Specifically, women NEED to be allowed to CHOOSE if they can have an abortion or not. A cancerous tumor growing in someone's brain is technically "life", but they have the choice of getting rid of it if they can.

Now I'm gonna get flak for comparing an unborn baby to a cancerous tumor. I can't win today.

[PAAATE]

You're right, Spitfire, I do have a very dark sense of humor and I somewhat, and very reluctantly, apologize. I've taken the liberty of toning down my earlier statement, as I feel the rest of it is fine, if morbid. Morbid humor is still humor.

Hey, I laughed :p

The thing is Xav, it's not an all-or-nothing, it's about choice. Specifically, women NEED to be allowed to CHOOSE if they can have an abortion or not.

This.

[Jester]

See that exception thing I wrote?

Some states allow a second murder charge if the fetus is viable outside of the womb. Doubt any state would bring double murder charges if the woman was only a few weeks preggers
Since I loathe to post out of ignorance I went an looked around to see if I could find the "youngest" fetus protected by the Unborn Victims of Vilolence Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act), and most I found were in the 3rd trimester, outside of most legal abortions. However, the law does call a "baby in utero," "a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb." The vagueness of the language made a lot of pro-choice people oppose the bill. 2004 Democratic Presidential candidate John Kerry said he had "serious concerns about this legislation because the law cannot simultaneously provide that a fetus is a human being and protect the right of the mother to choose to terminate her pregnancy."

Abortion will always be a hot button because on one side, religiously minded or not, people will call for the right of the unborn to live, and on the other people will say that the mother's rights over her body trump those of the child. All sides have slippery slopes. There was a recent case of a couple who sued for "wrongful life" because their daughter was born with Down Syndrome and had they known, they would have terminated the pregnancy. What's to keep people from eventually choosing to abort children based on any sort of perceived issue before birth? Does the choice to end a pregnancy become ever become wrong because the choice was made because the child won't be perfect, or is just plain inconvenient?

[Xav]

The thing is Xav, it's not an all-or-nothing, it's about choice. Specifically, women NEED to be allowed to CHOOSE if they can have an abortion or not.Women NEED to CHOOSE to not have unprotected sex.

[Leo656]

Again, sh*t happens. "Why can't I have paper towels to wipe up that milk I spilled?" "You shouldn't have spilled the milk in the first place, assh*le. Your fault for not knowin' better. Nobody gets paper towels ever again, they only exist to fix mistakes you shouldn't have made, so THERE."

Not very fair, is it? People are gonna make mistakes, and they need the resources to correct those mistakes. Again, a LOT of this comes down to one basic moral question: IS human life sacred? If you say Yes, you're probably anti-abortion. If you say No, you probably wonder why more people don't have them.

I say, "No, of course human life isn't sacred, what ever gave anyone a moronic assumption like that?"

Jester, you raise a good point, and again, I say let it be a CHOICE. I, for one, could never take care of a kid with HIV, Down's Syndrome, etc. I long ago decided that I can't take care of ANY kid. My biological need to f*ck trumps my societal obligation to breed. If something happened, and my wife got pregnant and it turned out the kid would have some serious problem, well, to me it would be horrible of me to even pretend I could handle that kind of responsibility. I know people that do, and they're great at it, *I* can't do it. I don't have the money, the patience, and the selflessness it takes to be a parent to anyone, especially a special needs child. And I see how many people with Down's and other diseases are treated in life by the people they meet... I can't exactly wish it on anyone. Not EVER going to say they'd be better off not being born, BUT, I strongly feel it is the parents' job to CHOOSE what will be best - for EVERYONE, and yes, that includes the parents. In the end, some will choose life and some will choose to abort life. But I believe everyone needs to choose for themselves, and you can NOT take that choice away.

Sadly... and this is gonna sound SO f*cked up, but it's the truth... MOST parents I know STRONGLY have some level of resentment for their kids. They resent the exorbitant cost, the lack of freedom, the neediness, the selfishness, the crying of the baby years, the arguing of the teen years... they resent, essentially, losing their entire lives for the sake of "someone else", someone who will never understand or appreciate the sacrifices that were made for them. For me, having kids is like smoking: Everyone I knew who did it wish they never started, so I never saw any reason anyone would want to, ever. If I got anyone pregnant, even by accident, my life would be entirely ruined, and I am not about to have that.

Selfish? Absolutely. But it's MY Choice. Everyone needs to make their own.

[mysterycolor]

There was a recent case of a couple who sued for "wrongful life" because their daughter was born with Down Syndrome and had they known, they would have terminated the pregnancy. What's to keep people from eventually choosing to abort children based on any sort of perceived issue before birth? Does the choice to end a pregnancy become ever become wrong because the choice was made because the child won't be perfect, or is just plain inconvenient?

You can already detect some genetic defects such as trisomy 13 (patau syndrome, trisomy 18 (edwards syndrome) & trisomy 21 (down syndrome) in the first trimester- so who is to say that people aren't aborting when they learn of the genetic abnormality? and who is to say they are wrong if they do? roughly 80% of babies born with patau syndrome die within their first year and at least half of babies born with edwards syndrome die within a week, that is if you actually make it to term as many of them are still born. As for down syndrome, many can live relatively long lives but are prone to health problems, developmental delays and a slew of other problems that will be around for their entire life... and this syndrome i know for sure has seen an uprise in abortion when detected- one article said 90% of fetus' diagnosed are then aborted in the United States...

[Master Splinter]

Women NEED to CHOOSE to not have unprotected sex.

Yeah because a rapist is going to take the time to put on a condom and choose a victim that has been on the pill. Get real!

WTF, again your thinking in extremes that the only two views on abortion are abortion is ok no matter what, or ban abortion with no exceptions.

Actually you are wrong. There are three views. However the third view is so extreme nobody agrees with it. MysteryColors views are not extreme, they are neutral. Pro-Choice is a neutral view, it gives the option of having an abortion or not having one, it is not forcing anything upon anyone. Your view of making abortions illegal so that no woman can have an abortion is one extreme side of the view. The opposite extreme view would be to make every woman have an abortion, but it is so crazy nobody agrees with it. But that's the fact that you and others won't bring up. Our view for Pro-Choice is a neutral view, it's not extreme, it's right down the middle.

-ms

[Jester]

You can already detect some genetic defects such as trisomy 13 (patau syndrome, trisomy 18 (edwards syndrome) & trisomy 21 (down syndrome) in the first trimester- so who is to say that people aren't aborting when they learn of the genetic abnormality? and who is to say they are wrong if they do? roughly 80% of babies born with patau syndrome die within their first year and at least half of babies born with edwards syndrome die within a week, that is if you actually make it to term as many of them are still born. As for down syndrome, many can live relatively long lives but are prone to health problems, developmental delays and a slew of other problems that will be around for their entire life... and this syndrome i know for sure has seen an uprise in abortion when detected- one article said 90% of fetus' diagnosed are then aborted in the United States...
Just because it's already being done, doesn't mean it's right. It's eugenic, pure and simple. Heaven forbid we find the "gay gene." Would there be an uproar if parents all of a sudden started aborting their potentially gay progeny? And what about false positives and negatives, which may say that a kid will be just fine and then they're born with Down Syndrome or the tests say that the child may have Down and they wind up fine? Both cases exist. No test is 100% accurate.

This may sound callous, but I think we've gotten way beyond people caring about really extreme gallows humor, but how would we study and fight disorders without people born with them? Then again, if they are all aborted, then we don't have the disorder, right?

[Katie]

It should still be a choice. If you don't believe in abortion then your choice is to carry the pregnancy despite any birth defects. If you do not have moral issues terminating a pregnancy where the fetus is genetically damaged, then you should be allowed to do it. It's a personal choice that no one who isn't a biological parent of the fetus should be involved in. And if you are a rapist....your rights to parenthood are void.

If this was to pass (and it won't) it would open the door to changing the legal definition of life. Life at conception. So then what?

Do women get tried for murder if they have a miscarriage? Or manslaughter (wasn't intended, but it happened)
What about fertilized eggs which don't attach to the uterus? They would be legally alive....is it's the woman's fault? Is it suicide?

Also if all abortions are banned, what if the life of the mother is in danger? Whose rights are more important? A 15 year old in another country which does ban all abortions was denied treatment for acute leukemia because she was 12 weeks pregnant. Prognosis without treatment was only a month or so if I remember right. Baby would have died with her, but she was denied treatment.

What if?

This stuff will happen if a law like this were to pass.

[ComicBookBoy]

you are absolutely right- and that is why decisions involving pregnancy, abortion and anything else surrounding our reproductive system should be left for us to determine what is best. as if just being pregnant isnt tumultuous enough, add in a less than desirable, or absolutely tragic situation into that... and make it worse by having people hover around judging when they know nothing about what it is like. ever notice that during abortion debates people rarely bring up the situations where pregnancy has to be "terminated" because complications will result in the death of the mother- how dare anyone make that woman feel wrong for choosing to abort the fetus so she can live... it is disgusting the way we treat women in this country it is often referred to as the "invisible burka"- we may not come right out and cover our women... but politicians wont hesitate to slash their rights for a campaign promise... and the fact that it is effective proves just how deep the nastiness goes.

If a woman was going to die if she had the baby then I would not say it is bad for her to have an abortion, but I will not say it is right either. "The greatest way to express your love for another is by giving your life for them."

But if a woman has an abortion just because she doesn't want the baby then she is completely wrong in doing so. That is murder and nothing more.

[ComicBookBoy]

A lot of people seem to think it is okay for a person to abort a baby because the baby will be born with some kind of problem like "down syndrome" or some other kind of problem, but what if a one year old baby was accidentally dropped and as a result, now had complications? He was completely alive and was able to live but he would have complications. Should the parents be allowed to kill their kid just because he now has complications? If you say "No" then you should no longer use the excuse "we should abort him because he will have complications."

[Xav]

Murder shouldn't be used to describe an abortion.

Murder is a legal term whereby a human knowingly and with malice ends the life of another human. For it to be murder, the fetus would have to be considered legally alive. In the legal definition of life....life begins at birth not conception.

Exceptions are sometimes made when the fetus would be viable outside the womb as in the Lacy Peterson case.And at one point blacks were legally 3/5 of a person.
You know when you're officially "a living person"? When you pop out. That's it. Not before. Anything prior to that is "A work in progress" and anything can happen. If I am on the road, just around the corner from work, but I'm not there yet, almost, but pretty close... I'm still not "at work", and I'm not given credit towards being so. Likewise, I don't count anyone as a member of the human race until they are present and accounted for... and usually, not even then. It's a rather broad, silly, and extreme way to make a point, I grant you, but all the intelligent arguements were taken already.But people keep growing until their 20's aren't they too "A work in progress"?
Yeah because a rapist is going to take the time to put on a condom and choose a victim that has been on the pill. Get real!You know damn well I am not talking about rape. Don't be a ****ing asshole.

[Katie]

I don't understand how the legal definition of when life starts has any comparison to the civil rights issues of the 19th century. No one ever said that a slave wasn't alive...they just didn't consider them to be anything much more than farm animals. Of course that was a stupid way to look at things.

I suppose though that bringing up the slave reference does present an interesting comparison. In the case of slaves, the white males deemed that slaves were not human (or no better than animals) to justify the opression of a group that was different fom them.

Similarly, people who would pass laws that dictate a certain moral standing do so to enforce their set of morals onto a group that has different beliefs.

I'm against abortion as a method of birth control......i'd likely never have an abortion (except for rape or if my life was in danger) because of my fundamental Christian upbringing. However just because that is my belief does not mean everyone should do as I do. Someone else may think differently.

Not my place to judge (that's in the bible, right?) Also not my place to save or convert anyone. No one should be forced into morality. Everyone should have a choice.

[Spitfire]

I like what Katie here has to say. Why can't more people understand this logic?

Also not a single anti-abortion person has told me how someone they don't know getting an abortion affects them.

[ComicBookBoy]

I like what Katie here has to say. Why can't more people understand this logic?

Also not a single anti-abortion person has told me how someone they don't know getting an abortion affects them.

People murder and rape others all over the country. It doesn't affect you, so should they legalize murder and rape?

[Samhain]

People murder and rape others all over the country. It doesn't affect you, so should they legalize murder and rape?

I gotta ask you, do you believe in Dinosaurs?

[ComicBookBoy]

I gotta ask you, do you believe in Dinosaurs?

I'm not quite sure what that has to do with anything but yeah.

[Samhain]

I'm not quite sure what that has to do with anything but yeah.

Okay then, good to hear.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

I suppose though that bringing up the slave reference does present an interesting comparison. In the case of slaves, the white males deemed that slaves were not human (or no better than animals) to justify the opression of a group that was different fom them.

Funny how you bring up "white males". Like everyone else was opposed to slavery? Slavery is still practiced today in many Muslim countries.

And BTW, slaves were considered human, as you couldn't kill a slave and not be charged with murder. (Look it up.) Also note that slaves were hardly considered subhuman if you look at the literature of the time. In the Mark Twain books; the slave Jim was talked to and treated like a person and not a piece of furniture. Even the cruel slaveowner Simon Legree in Uncle Tom's Cabin considered Uncle Tom human in the sense that Uncle Tom was able to humiliate Legree and make him feel small by being a good person.

[Katie]

In the history of the United States, slavery was perpertated by white males. It was before females had voting rights.

Fictional accounts of how slaves were regarded is not reality. I'm from Alabama. I can take to to a farm which was a breeding facility for slaves. Yep....treated just like horses. Auctioned. Looked in the mouth. Forced to breed.

Some slave owners were more progressive, but generally blacks were considered to be no better or more intelligent than a beast. Infact, the bank I work for has a building where slaves were held as collateral on loans. Treated as I treat cattle today.

What happens in the world today is irrelevant when the comparison was that blacks in this country were once not considered to be people. They actually were only considered 3/4 of a person in states which needed a boost in population to gain congressional seats.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

In the history of the United States, slavery was perpertated by white males. It was before females had voting rights.

Fictional accounts of how slaves were regarded is not reality. I'm from Alabama. I can take to to a farm which was a breeding facility for slaves. Yep....treated just like horses. Auctioned. Looked in the mouth. Forced to breed.

Some slave owners were more progressive, but generally blacks were considered to be no better or more intelligent than a beast. Infact, the bank I work for has a building where slaves were held as collateral on loans. Treated as I treat cattle today.

What happens in the world today is irrelevant when the comparison was that blacks in this country were once not considered to be people. They actually were only considered 3/4 of a person in states which needed a boost in population to gain congressional seats.
Most white males didn't have voting rights either, until deacdes after America's independence...and most people didn't own slaves except for a rich few. And yes, women did own slaves of their own accord. The stories I mention are fiction but they are based on reality. Sorry to disappoint you, but slaves could hardly be claimed to be considered less than human if they could legally be released and become citizens...or if it were murder to kill a slave. Even then, killing animals was not considered as serious as killing a slave. You're going to have to learn the whole story before you talk on this matter.

[The Stryker]

Are we seriously going on about slavery because one idiot brought it up in a desperate attempt to validate his opinion?

Also Chi-ha, where'd you get this information? Talk to a relative of a slave once? Some girl in canada? Hm?

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Are we seriously going on about slavery because one idiot brought it up in a desperate attempt to validate his opinion?

Also Chi-ha, where'd you get this information? Talk to a relative of a slave once? Some girl in canada? Hm?

My information on slavery? A course I took in college on Latin American history, part of which was about the comparison of slavery and later race relations in the USA versus that of Brazil. Yes, it's too big a topic to discuss in this forum, but one interesting note: Brazil imported a tremendous number of slaves while the USA imported only a small number. Which affected how slavery worked in each country.

[Leo656]

While I'm glad this thread has mostly stayed civil, and we're proving we can at least imitate what a reasonable conversation looks like, it still just looks like the opposing sides can't agree, and both sides think the other is totally nuts. Nice to know some things stay constant.

Here's where I come off as an arrogant, self-righteous prick to support my position. Ready? Here we go.

Who do I love more, myself or God? Interesting question. There is me, the one person I can always trust to have my back, the one who has never lied to me or given me false hope or misled me, the one and only person who is going to be in the grave when I die. I get along with that guy.

OR, we have God, who may or may not exist, but I gotta tell ya, He doesn't take my calls. Or if he does, they go straight to voicemail and He forgets about 'em. I was raised Catholic in a devout family full of people who never questioned their faith at all, and I did my best for yeeeaaaars to walk that same line, but you know what? The more time passed, the more I saw something interesting. You know who has the strongest faith of all? People who always get their way. People who have easy lives, people who have money, people who don't have to struggle. The more messed up stuff happens to you, the harder life gets, the worse off you are, and I don't care who you are, you start asking hard questions about Why. Why you, why me, why them, and they tell you "Don't ask, God's plan," and I'm like "Fine." But what about the day you realize that God's Plan involves a lot, a LOT of people starving to death, living on the streets, being born in some third-world backwater and dying in a week from AIDS or malaria, and all kinds of messed up stuff in between? What is the POINT of this so-called Plan?

When I realized God's Plan is all about some people suffering for no good reason, while others get rewarded despite being horrible people, and that basically, MY happiness was not a part of this Master Plan, I removed myself from it. I won't say "I don't believe", because God may well exist. I DO hope all this sh*t we go through has a point. I really do. But I'm still waiting for proof, because "Faith" is something I lost after the hundreth time I prayed and begged, "Please let that assh*le stop beating my sister;" "PLEASE let my mother get off drugs so she can have a long and happy life;" and nothing changed. I guess we're all being taught some "moral lesson" and these "simple creatures" are just pawns in the game, and their "Role" is to suffer so... what? So someone else might learn a lesson? Bullsh*t. Doesn't work that way, or at least it BETTER not.

God might exist, but He doesn't live on this planet. WE do. WE are the ones who have to live on this planet and deal with everything, and if people tell themselves "This is God's will," and it keeps them from blowing their brains out, good for you. But I refuse to accept ANY religious justification for a REAL issue/problem, like whether abortion is OK or not. God does NOT care, if He did, He would take a more active role in things, if it all mattered so damn much. I mean, if He didn't want my mother to have any abortions, she would have dropped dead after the first one to "teach her a lesson", no? If God hated gay people, they'd all be struck dead. God isn't the one casting stones, telling raped women to "suck it up and deal with it," or telling gays that they're "Morally Wrong". WE spout that bulls*t, because we hate anyone we don't like/understand, and we make up New God Rules to justify how WE want the world to work. And every time God ever spoke to anyone to tell them "The Rules", it was privately, with no one around, to some guy who walked up a hill or out into a field all alone with no witnesses. I'm sure those rulings are iron-clad, infallible, and not at ALL Total Bullsh*t. I'm sure.

Say abortion is wrong because it messes with chicks' heads. Fine. Say it's wrong because that potential life could have grown up to be a super-hero. Ok, I can buy that. "It's wrong because someone I've never met, but apparently has more powers than Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, The Brother Eye Sattelite, and the entire Justice League combined, who I am SURE loves me even though he's never paid any particular attention to ME personally and he sure seems to hate a lot of other people... Well I trust that judgment 1000%, no questions asked! If he says it's wrong, it's wrong!" That's not an argument, that's someone inventing an argument to reinforce their belief when their belief is proven BS.

So I don't trust God's judgment on anything. If He's real, He'll forgive me for being prideful, I'm sure. He must already know I'm a Huge Assh*le, because it's only by His will I exist as I do, right? Meanwhile, I think more rational and SANE arguments against abortion are needed before anyone takes them seriously. "God ain't down with it" isn't enough, sorry.

[Xav]

Are we seriously going on about slavery because one idiot brought it up in a desperate attempt to validate his opinion?I'm an idiot for what? Bringing up facts? Some white people wanted to take away the rights of slave owners to buy and sell property, even though it didn't effect them, and they wanted to give rights to what was legally only 3/5 of a person.

[Donnie]

In the history of the United States, slavery was perpertated by white males. It was before females had voting rights.

And who sold the white merchants the slaves from Africa? Africans.

I'm from Alabama.

Eek.

What happens in the world today is irrelevant when the comparison was that blacks in this country were once not considered to be people. They actually were only considered 3/4 of a person in states which needed a boost in population to gain congressional seats.

Hm...I believe you are speaking of the "Three-Fifths Compromise", which in 1787 stated that three-fifths of the slave population would be counted towards a state's representation in Congress.

[Jester]

Which the South wanted because it would give them an unfair political advantage, since they would be more populace than the North if the slaves were counted. It was a case of the wanting to consider them sub-human, except in cases where it would be politically expedient to consider them human.

[The Stryker]

I'm an idiot for what? Bringing up facts? Some white people wanted to take away the rights of slave owners to buy and sell property, even though it didn't effect them, and they wanted to give rights to what was legally only 3/5 of a person.

You're an idiot because that example has nothing to do with unborn fetuses. Nobody debated that the slaves were alive. There's a wee bit of difference between an entire race of living, walking, talking people and a being that basically amounts to a jelly sack.

Also it bothers me that the fallback argument for any issue on both sides eventually boils down to 'Well, The Blacks!'.

[Katie]

And who sold the white merchants the slaves from Africa? Africans.
Yes.....to the whites



Eek.

Nice. Ever been to Alabama? If so, where? Don't judge based on what is shown in the media. We're not all racist hicks. Infact the two most racist people I have ever met in my life were from New York and Chicago.


Hm...I believe you are speaking of the "Three-Fifths Compromise", which in 1787 stated that three-fifths of the slave population would be counted towards a state's representation in Congress.

So I got the number wrong....you knew what I was talking about.

Chi ha.....not sure why you're so defensive when someone says something about white men. I'm not saying that you support slavery or that in particulat today's white male wants slavery....but that is the history of the United States.

Yes Brazil imported more slaves....but couldn't you argue that the Portugese were white......or at least let's say men of European decent.

It was despicable for sure....but the treatment of African slaves is absolutely not a good comparison for placing rights on an unborn fetus.

[Xav]

You're an idiot because that example has nothing to do with unborn fetuses. Nobody debated that the slaves were alive. There's a wee bit of difference between an entire race of living, walking, talking people and a being that basically amounts to a jelly sack.

Also it bothers me that the fallback argument for any issue on both sides eventually boils down to 'Well, The Blacks!'.Again they weren't saying they weren't alive, but they were saying they were lest than white people, and in both cases people wanted to take away the rights of others because they thought something was morally wrong, even if it didn't effect them.

[The Stryker]

It's still completely different homie. It's a reach and a half. A race of people being enslaved and treated like farm animals is different from sacks of jelly.

Again. Its only about the choice here. Thats it.

[Duke]

i would like to believe you are joking...but deep down i know you arent :tsad: the connection between separation of church and state and supporting abortion is that the majority of people that argue the "rights" of the fetus are doing so based upon their religious beliefs and the biblical definition of life- and this cannot be what we base government policies on because we are not a christian nation and we do have freedom from religion and a separation of church and state.
There's a big difference between "freedom from religion" and the constitutional right of "freedom of religion."

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Chi ha.....not sure why you're so defensive when someone says something about white men. I'm not saying that you support slavery or that in particulat today's white male wants slavery....but that is the history of the United States.

Yes Brazil imported more slaves....but couldn't you argue that the Portugese were white......or at least let's say men of European decent.

It was despicable for sure....but the treatment of African slaves is absolutely not a good comparison for placing rights on an unborn fetus.

Because as a white male I'm sick of being blamed for all the world's evils, which is what you definitely are implying.

Well guess what? While males didn't invent slavery, or colonialism, or oppression, or torture, or genocide. Slavery existed in Asian, African, and pre-Colombian American cultures for milennia, and they didn't need white people to invent of perpetrate it. And not all slaves were African, either. As for colonialism and conquest, that has been going on in the cultures mentioned above too. The Japanese colonized part of China and other Asian nations and did not treat the natives nicely. But once the Communists took over China, then Chairman Mao showed the Chinese what brutality really was. He wasn't white. Neither was Pol Pot, who slaughtered a whole quarter of Cambodia's population. And ever heard of Idi Amin?

And BTW, American Indians owned slaves, too...which ought to tell you something. And that's your much-needed lesson in world history.

[Candy Kappa]

Because as a white male I'm sick of being blamed for all the world's evils, which is what you definitely are implying.

Well guess what? While males didn't invent slavery, or colonialism, or oppression, or torture, or genocide. Slavery existed in Asian, African, and pre-Colombian American cultures for milennia, and they didn't need white people to invent of perpetrate it. And not all slaves were African, either. As for colonialism and conquest, that has been going on in the cultures mentioned above too. The Japanese colonized part of China and other Asian nations and did not treat the natives nicely. But once the Communists took over China, then Chairman Mao showed the Chinese what brutality really was. He wasn't white. Neither was Pol Pot, who slaughtered a whole quarter of Cambodia's population. And ever heard of Idi Amin?

And BTW, American Indians owned slaves, too...which ought to tell you something. And that's your much-needed lesson in world history.

thanks for the old well known history lesson?

[PAAATE]

Because as a white male I'm sick of being blamed for all the world's evils, which is what you definitely are implying.

I'm a white male too, and I didn't feel anyone was implying anything. Stop it with the guilt :p

[Xav]

Again. Its only about the choice here. Thats it.Well than why can't I choose to own a slave?

[The Stryker]

Well than why can't I choose to own a slave?

.....wow. What the hell are you even talking about anymore?

Because as a white male I'm sick of being blamed for all the world's evils, which is what you definitely are implying.

When did she imply that? She was just talking about black slavery in america which did involve white males. Unless you want to dispute that fact.

[Candy Kappa]

Well than why can't I choose to own a slave?

well According to PETA, all pets and house animals are today slaves, cause slavery totally doesn't exist today...

[PAAATE]

Well than why can't I choose to own a slave?

Well, you could always kidnap someone, make her pregnant, keep her in your basement until she gives birth, then you kill her, you don't tell ANYONE about the baby, and then you could raise it into slavery.

Because a stupid question deserves a stupid answer.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

thanks for the old well known history lesson?

Believe it or not a lot of people don't know this.

And Katie did imply it was white males who bought slaves.

[The Stryker]

In america. That's all. You're just being overly defensive

[ComicBookBoy]

While I'm glad this thread has mostly stayed civil, and we're proving we can at least imitate what a reasonable conversation looks like, it still just looks like the opposing sides can't agree, and both sides think the other is totally nuts. Nice to know some things stay constant.

Here's where I come off as an arrogant, self-righteous prick to support my position. Ready? Here we go.

Who do I love more, myself or God? Interesting question. There is me, the one person I can always trust to have my back, the one who has never lied to me or given me false hope or misled me, the one and only person who is going to be in the grave when I die. I get along with that guy.

OR, we have God, who may or may not exist, but I gotta tell ya, He doesn't take my calls. Or if he does, they go straight to voicemail and He forgets about 'em. I was raised Catholic in a devout family full of people who never questioned their faith at all, and I did my best for yeeeaaaars to walk that same line, but you know what? The more time passed, the more I saw something interesting. You know who has the strongest faith of all? People who always get their way. People who have easy lives, people who have money, people who don't have to struggle. The more messed up stuff happens to you, the harder life gets, the worse off you are, and I don't care who you are, you start asking hard questions about Why. Why you, why me, why them, and they tell you "Don't ask, God's plan," and I'm like "Fine." But what about the day you realize that God's Plan involves a lot, a LOT of people starving to death, living on the streets, being born in some third-world backwater and dying in a week from AIDS or malaria, and all kinds of messed up stuff in between? What is the POINT of this so-called Plan?

When I realized God's Plan is all about some people suffering for no good reason, while others get rewarded despite being horrible people, and that basically, MY happiness was not a part of this Master Plan, I removed myself from it. I won't say "I don't believe", because God may well exist. I DO hope all this sh*t we go through has a point. I really do. But I'm still waiting for proof, because "Faith" is something I lost after the hundreth time I prayed and begged, "Please let that assh*le stop beating my sister;" "PLEASE let my mother get off drugs so she can have a long and happy life;" and nothing changed. I guess we're all being taught some "moral lesson" and these "simple creatures" are just pawns in the game, and their "Role" is to suffer so... what? So someone else might learn a lesson? Bullsh*t. Doesn't work that way, or at least it BETTER not.

God might exist, but He doesn't live on this planet. WE do. WE are the ones who have to live on this planet and deal with everything, and if people tell themselves "This is God's will," and it keeps them from blowing their brains out, good for you. But I refuse to accept ANY religious justification for a REAL issue/problem, like whether abortion is OK or not. God does NOT care, if He did, He would take a more active role in things, if it all mattered so damn much. I mean, if He didn't want my mother to have any abortions, she would have dropped dead after the first one to "teach her a lesson", no? If God hated gay people, they'd all be struck dead. God isn't the one casting stones, telling raped women to "suck it up and deal with it," or telling gays that they're "Morally Wrong". WE spout that bulls*t, because we hate anyone we don't like/understand, and we make up New God Rules to justify how WE want the world to work. And every time God ever spoke to anyone to tell them "The Rules", it was privately, with no one around, to some guy who walked up a hill or out into a field all alone with no witnesses. I'm sure those rulings are iron-clad, infallible, and not at ALL Total Bullsh*t. I'm sure.

Say abortion is wrong because it messes with chicks' heads. Fine. Say it's wrong because that potential life could have grown up to be a super-hero. Ok, I can buy that. "It's wrong because someone I've never met, but apparently has more powers than Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, The Brother Eye Sattelite, and the entire Justice League combined, who I am SURE loves me even though he's never paid any particular attention to ME personally and he sure seems to hate a lot of other people... Well I trust that judgment 1000%, no questions asked! If he says it's wrong, it's wrong!" That's not an argument, that's someone inventing an argument to reinforce their belief when their belief is proven BS.

So I don't trust God's judgment on anything. If He's real, He'll forgive me for being prideful, I'm sure. He must already know I'm a Huge Assh*le, because it's only by His will I exist as I do, right? Meanwhile, I think more rational and SANE arguments against abortion are needed before anyone takes them seriously. "God ain't down with it" isn't enough, sorry.

Let me straighten a few things out here. God does not hate anyone; He doesn't hate gay people or anyone else. He hates the sin, not the sinner. That's why He, Christ, sacrificed Himself, so that we could be forgiven of the sins that we have committed. But we can only receive that forgiveness if we put our faith in Him and not in ourselves. God does not make each person sin. He is the one Who teaches us how to not sin. He created Adam and Eve without sin, and their lives were perfect. But Adam and Eve sinned, and because of their sin, the world changed. The world is so messed up because of their sin, and everyone else's sin. God never promised a perfect life on Earth for anyone. And He never promised that all the good people would have good lives;
"He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

[愛]

Those are not facts, so there's really nothing to straighten out.

This has also gone way off topic, which is a topic we should have closed a long time ago. Only warning.

[ComicBookBoy]

Abortion is wrong because it is murder. If you support abortion then you support murder.

[ComicBookBoy]

Those are not facts, so there's really nothing to straighten out.

This has also gone way off topic, which is a topic we should have closed a long time ago. Only warning.

He spoke against God, I' couldn't just let that happen.

[PAAATE]

Abortion is wrong because it is murder. If you support abortion then you support murder.

"According to some." You forgot that part :)

[PAAATE]

He spoke against God, I' couldn't just let that happen.

He wrote an insightful post about his own experiences and his own views. And it was mostly agnostic, not "against god". Freedom of speech? Freedom of religion?

[ComicBookBoy]

He wrote an insightful post about his own experiences and his own views. And it was mostly agnostic, not "against god". Freedom of speech? Freedom of religion?

I fully agree that he has the freedom of speech to say what he believes, but I also have the freedom to defend what I believe.

[Barkworm]

I respect the people in this thread who keep trying to get their point across to the fruitcakes but I'm sure you know that it's useless.

[愛]

I fully agree that he has the freedom of speech to say what he believes, but I also have the freedom to defend what I believe.

What you believe makes me very uncomfortable.

[Xav]

.....wow. What the hell are you even talking about anymore?I'm talking about my right to own a slave.
Well, you could always kidnap someone, make her pregnant, keep her in your basement until she gives birth, then you kill her, you don't tell ANYONE about the baby, and then you could raise it into slavery.

Because a stupid question deserves a stupid answer.How is it a stupid question? If I see nothing morally wrong with slavery I should be allowed to do it.

[The Stryker]

I'm talking about my right to own a slave.
How is it a stupid question? If I see nothing morally wrong with slavery I should be allowed to do it.

A slave would imply a living person not a lifeless mass of goop which is where the difference lies.

Unless you're running a lifeless goop slave ring which I don't think will get you any results.

[Jester]

This may come off as nit-picky, but doesn't the fact that it's a developing life void at least the "lifeless" part of your "lifeless mass of goop" argument?

[PAAATE]

I'm talking about my right to own a slave.
How is it a stupid question? If I see nothing morally wrong with slavery I should be allowed to do it.

As people have already said: You can't compare abortion to slavery. When did this thread turn into a discussion about slavery?

But hey, even if the two were comparable: Most people don't support slavery. In the same way that only a minority would support legalizing murder or kidnapping. Where do most people stand on abortion? **** if I know, but it's not as clear-cut as that whole slavery-thing.

Oh, and I seriously hope you're being hypothetical. You don't really support slavery, do you?

[Cure]

I support slavery. I'm too lazy do anything. I'd be an equal opportunity slave owner, though, and have one of every race.