The Turtles AS Ninjas- heroes and the colored bandanas

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Being a fan of the IDW rendition of the turtles, I've often wondered about some of the debates about the turtles and thier being ninjas- can they be heroes and still be ninjas? Should all thier headbands be the same color? And I think the awnsers aren't what some TMNT fans think.

For example, with Splinter's current 'no-kill policy, and the Turtles almost 'heroic' actions in fighting criminals in IDW. There are historical precidents for this. It is believed that the first Ninjas were actually farmers who lived near Bhuddist Temples in Japan, trained by the missionary monks from China in the martial arts, to defend them and thier temples from a Shinto Japan hostile to the new religion/Philosophy. (This is why many ninja weapons greatly resemble farm tools- that's what they actually evolved from) This would make the original ninja protectors, not assains- it was only later that the Koga and Iga would corrupt what the monks had taught them into an art of Spying, sabotoge, and assasination.

If one accepts this origin for Ninjitsu, then Splinter- who just had his Buddhist faith bolstered by the reincarnation of himself and his sons he had prayed for. (No matter how much against the tements of buddhism said reincarnation is), then Spilnter migh see himself and his sons returning Ninjitsu to it's true. 'pure' path- that of protectors and defenders. Such is a plausable way to take 'vengence' out of the equation (which is the path Tang Shen begged Yoshi not to take thier sons down), and make thier actions more altruistic.

Second, I bring up the matter of the masks. I've heard arguments that the Turtles should all wear the same color because they were from the same 'clan'. This, in my opinion, is utter hogwash. Shinobi wore whatever colors, outfits, or garments would help them get thier jobs done- which were more often spying and sabotoge, much more than assasination. Even the black outfit we so associate with the Shinobi actually came from the stagehands of Kabuki dramas-which ninjas would often disguise themselves as to spy on Daimyo's courts. There is no evidence that historic shinobi- such as Hattori Hanzo, ever wore any kind of clan colors. This is more an invention of Japanese fiction, and hollywood.

Now, I may get flamed because of this post, but if somebody's going to argue for the red masks and the turtles not being heroes, let it be for the right reasons, not 'because thier ninjas' that term- which is more modern and far less accurate than shinobi- has been very, very misused!

[Andrew NDB]

For example, with Splinter's current 'no-kill policy, and the Turtles almost 'heroic' actions in fighting criminals in IDW. There are historical precidents for this. It is believed that the first Ninjas were actually farmers who lived near Bhuddist Temples in Japan, trained by the missionary monks from China in the martial arts, to defend them and thier temples from a Shinto Japan hostile to the new religion/Philosophy. (This is why many ninja weapons greatly resemble farm tools- that's what they actually evolved from) This would make the original ninja protectors, not assains- it was only later that the Koga and Iga would corrupt what the monks had taught them into an art of Spying, sabotoge, and assasination.

Seems a little bit too chicken and the egg to me. I mean, if you go back far enough on just about anything you can find a different truth than what was ultimately settled on. And in terms of the TMNT, (speaking of the source material) the only important question to ask is: was Hamato Yoshi born during times when "it is believed" that the farmers were trained to defend themselves? No, he was born was born after the "corruption" of Koga and Iga and there was the more accepted definition of "ninja" pretty firmly in place.

And if the whole idea of the "Ninja" Turtles is to make them Ninjas like the Ninjas were before they were really known as Ninjas... then I'm not really sure what's the point of the title in the first place.

I actually endorse the European "Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles" thing. If they're doing the TMNT in a medium that's going to depict the Turtles not actually being ninjas, then why not just remove the word and replace it with "hero"? At least that way they're not sh*tting on the concept of it.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Seems a little bit too chicken and the egg to me. I mean, if you go back far enough on just about anything you can find a different truth than what was ultimately settled on. And in terms of the TMNT, (speaking of the source material) the only important question to ask is: was Hamato Yoshi born during times when "it is believed" that the farmers were trained to defend themselves? No, he was born was born after the "corruption" of Koga and Iga and there was the more accepted definition of "ninja" pretty firmly in place.

And if the whole idea of the "Ninja" Turtles is to make them Ninjas like the Ninjas were before they were really known as Ninjas... then I'm not sure what's the point of the title in the first place.

In my opinion, arguing the 'after the fact' issue is nonsensical. People throughout history have tried to 'purify' movements or philosophies back to a 'less corrupt' form, many times to a state from before the reformer was ever born. By that logic there would BE no reform movements!

I will grant that Yoshi was born after the fact- but, we had seen in the comic he had changed after the events of his and his sons 'death' and 'rebirth'. The angry yoshi, yes, was a 'ninja through and through. But the promise he made to his wife, and his rebirth- seems to have had a change of heart. Compare the splinter who raised the turtles to get revenge for Yoshi's death in Mirage number 1, to the Splinter who eximamines his own feelings to make sure he is not driven by hate in Splinter microseries #1, and decides to kill the shredder not out of vengance, but to protect his sons. There is a diffrence.

I'm not saying these turtles will be out on the streets fighting criminals like super heroes, but I think they will be helping those in need when they can, and not just 'protecting thier family'. (THough that will be a top priority)

[Andrew NDB]

In my opinion, arguing the 'after the fact' issue is nonsensical. People throughout history have tried to 'purify' movements or philosophies back to a 'less corrupt' form, manytimes to a state before the reformer was ever born. By that logic there would BE no reform movements!

I guess I'm more interested in your specific sources and when precisely the term "ninja" was coined. Was it when the Japanese farmers were supposedly armed and trained by Chinese monks, or was it some time later... say, around the Iga and Koga times?

I mean, I'm pretty sure people have had sex with corpses at some point before the term "munging" (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=munging) originated. If the first person to have sex with a corpse ever did so in an attempt to, say, (just shooting from the hip now) give peace to a burdened soul, does that mean that's the true definition of munging? No, that's crazy.
I'm not saying these turtles will be out on the streets fighting criminals like super heroes, but I think they will be helping those in need when they can

Why? They aren't a part of humanity or our world. Why fight our battles for us? They will never, ever be a part of our world. What do they get out of it, and why would protecting us be a part of their mission statement, ever?

I mean, it's one thing if they're coming back home from getting supplies or something and see someone getting robbed or gang-raped or something (of course they'd jump in)... it's quite another if they're like actively going out looking for human crimes to stop like Batman or Kick-Ass or something.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

The term 'ninja' actually comes from the fiction of the Edo period, after the time said profession had largely died out. (The last recorded usage of Shinobi in battle was by Tokugowa Ieasu in 1614) They were never actually called that in thier own heyday, during the feudal era. Rather, the term 'shinobi was used. The fictional assasins called ninja, loosley based on the Shinobi, with thier almost 'supernatural' skills, were a creation of the Romanticized fiction of the Edo era- much the way we in the west romanticize pirates.

And to make it more interesting, some Japanese lituature of the period DOES use some ninja as noble heroes who help the weak, forced into bad situations where they have to break the law/dishonor themselves (Much like we view the 'outlaw' figures, like robin hood and han solo, in our fiction)

[Andrew NDB]

The term 'ninja' actually comes from the fiction of the Edo period, after the time said profession had largely died out. (The last recorded usage of Shinobi in battle was by Tokugowa Ieasu in 1614) They were never actually called that in thier own heyday, during the feudal era. Rather, the term 'shinobi was used. The fictional assasins called ninja, loosley based on the Shinobi, with thier almost 'supernatural' skills, were a creation of the Romanticized fiction of the Edo era- much the way we in the west romanticize pirates.

Even if we're to accept that, we also have to remember the simple fact that the Turtles are "Ninja" Turtles. It's in the title. Even if it's a retconned modern romanticization of "shinobi"... then that's what it is, with all the connotations that come along with it.

And "Teenage Mutant Shinobi Turtles" sounds like sh*t.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Even if we're to accept that, we also have to remember the simple fact that the Turtles are "Ninja" Turtles. It's in the title. Even if it's a retconned modern romanticization of "shinobi"... then that's what it is, with all the connotations that come along with it.

And "Teenage Mutant Shinobi Turtles" sounds like sh*t.

Ironically, that's why the term that became 'ninja' was created by the Edo era authors, out of the Kanji characters that made up the japanese version of the word 'shinobi'- because they thought the Japanese term for Shinobi was too much of a mouthful for thier readers! :tlol:

Also, to mess with people's minds even more... some Ninja WERE Samurai as well, like the above mention Hatto. Actual Samurai would lie, trick, cheat and steal to win a battle- the code of Bushido and the 'honorabe' samurai, while they did exist, were also Romanticized by Edo period fiction. Shinobi wern't there to do the jobs Samurai found 'dishonorable'- the Samurai could be just as dishonorable as they were! :lol:

[Toby Barrett]

I don't really mind either direction that could be taken, they both offer fun story ideas.
One thing I do like in IDW so far, is how Raphael is more of a Hero Turtle than the other three, constantly going out on patrols with Casey. I think it's a fun way to distinguish his personality from the other turtles, and could lead to some interesting paths in the future.

[FoxZerro]

This is a very interesting thread. I have enjoyed reading the debate that Andrew and P_Kahn have been having. Honestly I think I would have to fall on the side where the Turtles are not looking to become involved in human affairs. Yes they would easily get involved if they stumbled upon a crime in progress and someone was getting hurt. In fact that should be the only time they get involved because based on their training they wouldn't go out looking for a fight, they would only get involved when they have to.

Looking back at the original Mirage books rarely did they go out looking for a fight. In fact the only time I can say they started the fight with their enemy was the first issue and Return to New York. Other than that you have a group of people trying to live their lives as peaceful as possible and fate just doesn't want to let that happen.

The same can be said for the IDW books, which is probably my favorite part of them thus far. They don't go out looking for trouble, trouble finds them. The only argument that could be made against that is the patrols that Casey and Raph go on, and even then that just seems like an excuse the both of them use to hangout.

The problem that I have that exists when you try to make the Turtles into heroes is that it doesn't jive with the way of the ninja. Even those Farmers trained by ancient Chinese monks were willing to kill those who threatened them. The distinction in modern fiction is that heroes don't kill (I am basing this belief on Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe) unfortunately a Ninja should be willing to kill when the need arises. Having their life threatened by another person that should justify their life being forfeit and taken in order to confirm the threat has been neutralized.

I support the TMNT having a code. One of my favorite moments in all Turtle Fiction is the oft-repeated scene of Raph telling Casey his punishment does not fit the crime. It makes perfect sense for them to believe that. Still when an infinite number of Foot Ninjas are coming out of the woodwork and their only goal is to end you and your brother's lives, then it makes sense that you would kill or severely wound them, because they have given up their right to life by demanding yours.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Ineresting posts and a very civil debate, everyone. :)There are some points I do agree with- such as the Turtles not seeking out criminals to fight, but I feel they would help anyone in need they came across. After all, you don't have to be a hero to do the right thing. Also, I have no problem with them killing in self-defense, or in defense of another. I had no problem with what Splinter was going to do to shredder in the micro to protect his family.

Listen, I may not like the Mirage series and it's blood and violence, but I restpect it, and it's fans. If they want the dark, gritty ninja turtles, that's thier thing. I'll stick with the cartoon hero ones, and the ones like IDW who (for now) are riding the line. It is cool for everyone to have thier owwn version to enjoy. :tgrin:

[Andrew NDB]

If they want the dark, amoral ninja turtles, that's thier thing. I'll stick with the cartoon hero ones, and the ones like IDW who (for now) are riding the line. It is cool for everyone to have thier owwn version to enjoy. :tgrin:

I'm a little puzzled how "Willing to kill" or to go a step further even "Raised to kill" automatically equates to them being amoral.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I'm a little puzzled how "Willing to kill" or to go a step further even "Raised to kill" automatically equates to them being amoral.

Wrong word choice- I was trying to comment on the level of graphic violence in the comic in that statement, not on the Turtle's actual morality(I've edited my post to reflect that.) It's all a matter of taste, and the Mirage comics, which I have read most of, just aren't to my tastes. That's not to say they are not amazing comics, they're just not for me. Also, on the morality issue, I'm not judging the morality of their actions in the comics, merely saying the way it's presented is not to my tastes. My only explanation for why I don't like it is... it's just what I like.

[ChromeDome]

Wow, this was a really interesting thread!

Not to be too much of a nerd, but can any of you tell me where you learned about the origins of Ninjas? After reading this I'm interested in understanding more about them.

[Cryomancer]

The beauty of Mirage is that the morality, "did we do the right thing", character motivations, etc are generally not very black and white. The turtles take out Shredder, an obvious threat to the city...but they do it for vengeance, and doing so causes consequences for the city itself later on. Raphael and Casey go out to take down random thugs vigilante style, thus helping the victims of some of the criminals, but they're doing it because they want a fight. The turtles themselves don't always agree with each other's actions or motivations either.

This is a big part of what makes Mirage a good read. It sticks to it's themes, many of which all go back to "life is at best bittersweet'.

I don't think the TMNT have any single motivation or direction in their lives, and I think the story is better for it. They have their ninja skills, they have been trained for their mission. Then their mission is over, and the rest of the comic is how their lives unfold from there.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Wow, this was a really interesting thread!

Not to be too much of a nerd, but can any of you tell me where you learned about the origins of Ninjas? After reading this I'm interested in understanding more about them.

College history classes! :)

And if we're going to see the turtles act like true ninja, I wanna see them out there spying and commiting sabotoge, and etiher selling thier ninja skills to the highest bidder, or finding a daimyo to serve! :tlol:

(Before somebody jumps on me for that remark, that was a joke.)

[Venom]

I wanna see them out there spying and commiting sabotoge, and etiher selling thier ninja skills to the highest bidder, or finding a daimyo to serve! :tlol:

Actually, the only thing on that list they didn't technically do was be mercs.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Speaking of the Turtles as Ninjas- how would all of you feel about having actual Japanese mythology tied into the comics- we already have Bhuddism mentioned, how about Tengu (the patrons of the Japanese martial arts) King Sojobo (who is being used in the nick cartoon prequel comic) the kami (Ametrasu, lord Izumi-who cameoed in Archie, Susano, Rajin/Raiden orichi), the turtles doing jutsus with thier ninjitsu, etc. ?