Why is Baxter Stockman Black in comics and White in cartoon?

[markberry]

Not sure if i missed something or if this has already been talked about, But i am curious.

[Mayhem]

Probably the usual worry about portraying the sole black guy in the realm as bad, so they changed him to a stereotypical mad scientist look.

[hitmonkey]

Yeah, I assumed they didn't want their one black character to be a bad guy. Funny thing is, white-washing the character seems far more offensive.

Since we're on the subject, my big question about Baxter in the '87 series is why did they turn him into Jerry Lewis? The look, the voice, all of it.

[Drose18]

I have both the toys and when i play with them i use the fly as chaplin from 2k3 cuz he had orange hair and was a sorta clumsy scientist.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Funny, Bebop was black before being mutated.

[Candy Kappa]

They where worried that having Shredder being an abusive boss to Baxter would be offensive, funny thing is. Shredder ain't Caucasian.

[Ninjinister]

They where worried that having Shredder being an abusive boss to Baxter would be offensive, funny thing is. Shredder ain't Caucasian.

Nope. They had designs for him in each ethnicity drawn up for the show, and there was a note indicating that it didn't matter which was used. The white version was meant to be a parody of Doc Brown.

[MikeandRaph87]

I asked Dan Berger this nearly a decade ago.According to his information Baxter was made to be white because of sensitive censors of the time.They knew that Baxter would be the most abused character and a black man being pushed around without the ego that '03 had and was spineless and whinny should be white to aviod problems despite the fact an asian man voiced by a black man would be the chief abuser of Baxter.Mr.Berger might be off somewheere but that is what he told me back during season 2 of the 2003 cartoon.

[ZariusTwo]

Didnt seem to matter much in the long run, as Baxter was quickly written out of the show after only a few episodes in favour of characters that could move more merchandise and comedic interest in Bebop and Rocksteady (I'm just making a guess as to what the motivation behind removing Baxter was)

[chrisdude]

I asked Dan Berger this nearly a decade ago.According to his information Baxter was made to be white because of sensitive censors of the time.They knew that Baxter would be the most abused character and a black man being pushed around without the ego that '03 had and was spineless and whinny should be white to aviod problems despite the fact an asian man voiced by a black man would be the chief abuser of Baxter.Mr.Berger might be off somewheere but that is what he told me back during season 2 of the 2003 cartoon.Interesting.

Funny enough, I'm reading Ultimate collection vol 3, and the only black characters I recall are Stockman and that crazy, uh... revolutionist in the woods. Are they all crazy in the original comics?

[FoxZerro]

I completely believe that they didn't want him to a black character who was pushed around / completely subservient to a white character argument (fully aware that Shredder is Asian). The reason is that in his first appearance in the Simpsons, Waylon Smithers was portrayed as a black man and his complexion was changed to avoid the very same thing

[CyberCubed]

Since Baxter was really dopey and cowering under Shredder in many of the Season 2 episodes, that would have been seen as racist showing, "the black guy" being a cowering wimp to the Shredder.

Not sure why, but that's how it is.

[Jephael]

There was that one episode where Baxter temporarily grew a backbone and got fed up with Shredder's mistreatment, but yea ordinarily he was a pansy!

[gobo]

Nope. They had designs for him in each ethnicity drawn up for the show, and there was a note indicating that it didn't matter which was used. The white version was meant to be a parody of Doc Brown.
I remember reading that somewhere. Can you remind me where?

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I seem to recall that information coming from Peter Laird's "Blast from the Past" blog.

[TurtleFan2012]

You know what's odd? There is a black scientist in season 10, "Mobster from Dimension X" who looks like the 2003 Baxter.

[MikeandRaph87]

You know what's odd? There is a black scientist in season 10, "Mobster from Dimension X" who looks like the 2003 Baxter.

:lol: I thought I was the only one who noticed that! I watched it this past Monday and was wondering if the desgin was inspired by what Baxter actually looked like or was simply a coincidence!

[Ninjinister]

I asked Dan Berger this nearly a decade ago.According to his information Baxter was made to be white because of sensitive censors of the time.They knew that Baxter would be the most abused character and a black man being pushed around without the ego that '03 had and was spineless and whinny should be white to aviod problems despite the fact an asian man voiced by a black man would be the chief abuser of Baxter.Mr.Berger might be off somewheere but that is what he told me back during season 2 of the 2003 cartoon.

Well then he and Murphy remember that time differently.

[MikeandRaph87]

Well then he and Murphy remember that time differently.

I sent him questions every so often from 2000-2009 and I archived his responses. That was one of the many I asked him over the years and that was the reply he gave me so I took it as fact until proven otherwise. Murphy may have more knowledge since Dan is more of the tech guy and artist while Murphy was more of a character desginer so perhaps Murphy would know.

[markberry]

i havent seen a lot of the 2003 stuff just the original cartoons.
But my guess was similar to a majority of the answers posted.

thanx

[markberry]

Funny, Bebop was black before being mutated.

i totally forgot about that hah

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Since Baxter was really dopey and cowering under Shredder in many of the Season 2 episodes, that would have been seen as racist showing, "the black guy" being a cowering wimp to the Shredder.

Not sure why, but that's how it is.

But season 2 wasn't created back then.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

I find it interesting that non-white characters are really only used in cartoons only if the source material portrays them that way.

[Xav]

You know what's odd? There is a black scientist in season 10, "Mobster from Dimension X" who looks like the 2003 Baxter.Anyone have an image?

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Didnt seem to matter much in the long run, as Baxter was quickly written out of the show after only a few episodes in favour of characters that could move more merchandise and comedic interest in Bebop and Rocksteady (I'm just making a guess as to what the motivation behind removing Baxter was)

The Baxter Stockman action figure was one of my favorites as a child, with the wings and the extra arms. I would think that he'd be an interesting enough character to move merchandise.

It would be interesting to find out the motivations for certain characters disappearing . I would have liked to have seen more of General Traag too.

[gobo]

I always thought of it this way: To have the token black guy be a bad guy is borderline. To have the only two black people in the series be bad guys is blatantly racist. And, a black gang member just makes more sense than a black mad scientist.
I would have liked to have seen more of General Traag too.
Really? O_o He was in 15 or so eps, and he wasn't even the interesting stone warrior/rock soldier.

[CyberCubed]

The Baxter Stockman action figure was one of my favorites as a child, with the wings and the extra arms. I would think that he'd be an interesting enough character to move merchandise.

It would be interesting to find out the motivations for certain characters disappearing . I would have liked to have seen more of General Traag too.

He's talking about Season 2. It was only Shredder and Baxter for the first half of the season until it went back to Shredder/Bebop/Rocksteady.

Also I find this bizarre. Baxter, Rat King, Traag and to a lesser extent Leatherhead appeared throughout the course of the show right up till the Lord Dregg era.

[Xav]

I always thought of it this way: To have the token black guy be a bad guy is borderline. To have the only two black people in the series be bad guys is blatantly racist. And, a black gang member just makes more sense than a black mad scientist.Why? You don't think a black scientist is believable?

[zkarlette]

Why? You don't think a black scientist is believable?

Come on.. You skipped the first part of his post making him sound super racist..

[rinascimento]

what had been really bad, is the fact that bebop was black in the show, but in the mutating toyline he was white in his human form. totally racist.

[Icegaze]

This thread... and some posts. I don't even...
Someone says it makes more sense to have a Black gang member instead of a Black mad scientist. Ok...

[Candy Kappa]

http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.no/2008/09/blast-from-past-95-baxter-stockman-and.html

[Icegaze]

"We never sent these sketches (NB: Baxter Stockman, April O'neil roughs) to Wolf, and I have to say that I'm surprised anyone would think Baxter was white in his first appearance in the comics.

I'm not really sure why his race was changed for the cartoon. I can't remember at this point in time if we ever asked or complained about it, probably because -- as you can see from the fact illustrated in the first sketch -- we were prepared to go in either direction when we we created him. His race really wasn't that important." -- Peter Laird

[TurtleFan2012]

Anyone have an image?

Here you go. I like to pretend he is Baxter as a good guy lol.

[JakeSully]

Yeah, I assumed they didn't want their one black character to be a bad guy. Funny thing is, white-washing the character seems far more offensive.

Since we're on the subject, my big question about Baxter in the '87 series is why did they turn him into Jerry Lewis? The look, the voice, all of it.

I know, why white wash the original? and he did look like Jerry Lewis in the old toon.

[gobo]

Why? You don't think a black scientist is believable?
Uh, I completely remember saying "there's nothing more laughable than a black scientist". Good eye. :roll:

[chrisdude]

Maybe they didn't want the show to be too black, because all the turtles were already black.
;)

[Xav]

Uh, I completely remember saying "there's nothing more laughable than a black scientist". Good eye. :roll:No you said a black gang member makes more sense than a black scientist.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Bebop wasn't visible in human form for that long, Baxter was human for a great many episodes before mutating- heck, I really don't think they even planned to mutate him, at first.

Speaking of OT Baxter, does anyone else think Dr. Chaplain from the 2K3 series kind of reminds them of OT Baxter Stockman?

[Dirty Blond]

No, gobo said that to have a lone black character as a baddie on a show is borderline racist; so a gang member -- black or white -- makes more sense as a villain than a scientist.

[CyberCubed]

We saw black Bebop in 4 episodes. The first 2, Shredderville, and Plan 6 from Outer Space.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

We saw black Bebop in 4 episodes. The first 2, Shredderville, and Plan 6 from Outer Space.

Yes, but when they were initaly created, it was intended Baxter be visible as a human longer, wheras Bebop would spend most of his time in the series as a mutant (which he did).

And again, Dr. Chaplain? :ohwell:

[TurtleTitan97]

Speaking of OT Baxter, does anyone else think Dr. Chaplain from the 2K3 series kind of reminds them of OT Baxter Stockman?

Not really. :ohwell:

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Guess I'm the only one that sees it :ohwell:

[CyberCubed]

Chaplain was obviously a throwback to white Baxter just like the Evil Turtlebot was Metalhead.

[gobo]

No you said a black gang member makes more sense than a black scientist.
TV exec logic... Compare the number of black gang members you've seen on TV to the number of black mad scientists. That's my point.

[arkangel]

My Baxter is bad and black just like the original source material. :)

[Xav]

Funny enough, I'm reading Ultimate collection vol 3, and the only black characters I recall are Stockman and that crazy, uh... revolutionist in the woods. Are they all crazy in the original comics?Well there was that one black guy who got scared by Leo and joined the Foot clan.

[oldmanwinters]

I guess one could probably ask David Wise about it, but this early concept art shared by Steve Murphy suggests they really wanted to have Baxter capitalize on the popular "Doc Emmett Brown" look from the Back to the Future franchise.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/2331442448/in/faves-22047800@N07/
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2344/2331442448_26df5539f5.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/2331442448/)
TEENGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES - The Original Series :: Early "Baxter Stockman" concept designs by x (( 1987 )) [[ Courtesy of Steve Murphy ]] (http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/2331442448/) by tOkKa (http://www.flickr.com/people/terrible2z/), on Flickr

[Jephael]

I guess one could probably ask David Wise about it, but this early concept art shared by Steve Murphy suggests they really wanted to have Baxter capitalize on the popular "Doc Emmett Brown" look from the Back to the Future franchise.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/2331442448/in/faves-22047800@N07/
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2344/2331442448_26df5539f5.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/2331442448/)
TEENGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES - The Original Series :: Early "Baxter Stockman" concept designs by x (( 1987 )) [[ Courtesy of Steve Murphy ]] (http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/2331442448/) by tOkKa (http://www.flickr.com/people/terrible2z/), on Flickr

Damn, that would've been a good question to ask in that interview I did with David for my website!

[pannoni1]

So in the end, it was just another pop culture reference. I would have loved to see a time travel episode before Baxter became a fly. Still, the pens in is pocket, the hairstyle, the round glasses, and the white suit all are based upon Doc.