Should Tang Shen Be Reincarnated, Too?

[Jester]

So...to keep from totally derailing the History of the Foot (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=38258&page=7) thread anymore, what are your thoughts on the possibility of Tang Shen being reincarnated like her husband and sons were.

So far there are to working theories:
1. Alopex is Shen reincarnated, but with no memory of her past life. There is really no basis for this theory, so hopefully it's not gonna happen.
2. Cowabunga Carl actually brings up a thought that Shen is reincarnated in April, which actually makes some sense, making her naming the boys a bit more understandable, and also possibly allowing Yoshi a chance to let go of his need for revenge.

I kinda hope she stays dead. Not every character needs to be reincarnated. It seems lazy, to me.

So....what do you think?

[Lampy]

stays dead.

[Cowabunga Carl]

I think she sort of has to come back. I mean there needs to be some closure and there wont be with her still dead and the rest of her family brought back. I think Yoshi and Saki are stuck in this dance of revenge/anger and Shen is the only one who can break it.

[Lampy]

but if saki and yoshi stop dancing... won't that end the feud too early? if she's going to be reincarnated... how about waaaay later? after idw has squeezed the last drop of juice from the Foot/Hamato lemon. and if she does convince them to stop fighting... all we'll get is teenage mutant turtles... and eventually when they're older... just mutant turtles. where does the ninja aspect fit into this?

[Cowabunga Carl]

No it doesn't stop the dance. It just makes it take a different angle. Instead of being revenge for Tang Shen it becomes a feud over honor. It would also explain why they don't kill Saki and how he could stick around.

[Lampy]

saki has a demented sense of honor. so what splinter would deem as honor may seem like foolishness to saki. it'll be a game of kill and hide. and if they try to thwart the foot's evil schemes (because the turtles want to live a peaceful life but the foot keeps reeking havoc) on new york or worldwide... you'll see the whole teenage mutant hero turtles that everyone loves so much.
splinter already tried living a different life... in a different way to avoid the cycle. so tang shen would make him realize what he knew from the beginning?

[Cowabunga Carl]

He didn't though, he still had hatred in his heart. This is shown by his last statement about being released from the promise he made his wife. Her coming back would be to confront him about it, about how until he learns not to hate he can never truly be free or move on.

[Lampy]

if tang shen came back... then it should be for that reason alone and not to stick around... i just hope they choose another medium of bringing her back to reintroduce this peace in splinter. i don't like the idea of april being a mere host for his dead wife.

[Cowabunga Carl]

But see that is just it, she wouldn't be "just a host" if done right. It would show that she is at peace with her past life and has moved on. That she is no longer trapped by the past and thus can become a new person. Yet it gives a reason why April has motherly tendencies towards the Turtles.

[Lampy]

i don't know man... you have some very valid points... but not digging the idea of tang shen and april being one.

[Jester]

i don't know man... you have some very valid points... but not digging the idea of tang shen and april being one.
That's exactly how I feel. I can see it, but I really don't like it.

[Cipher]

I can only see such a development making the story more interesting and the characters' decisions more ambiguous. How would another party react to being implicated in these strange creatures' reincarnation story? What it's someone they know, like April (or at least they think it is)? What do Shredder and Splinter do with this information? I'm all for it.

That is, assuming the reincarnation angle continues to hold up. Any developments to the contrary I also feel would make the story more interesting.

[Cowabunga Carl]

At first I was kind of joking about the whole April thing, but the more I thought about it the more I actually kind of dig it. I mean even if they don't go that route I'd like to see Tang Shen show up again. I really think she is the catalyst that is needed to help Splinter forgo revenge.

[Ninjinister]

*Tang. Like the drink, the Pootie, or the Kaiji.

[Jester]

*Tang. Like the drink, the Pootie, or the Kaiji.
There. Fixed.

[CyberCubed]

If Tang Shen is April you guys do realize Splinter will fall in love with April right?

Please no!

[Matches Malone]

I'm not inherently against Tang Shen coming back. As some have noted, she is a virtually an unused character, mostly a means to push the plot along in the turtles' origin. I loved seeing a bit more of her in the Splinter micro.

I do think that reincarnating her as an established character such as Alopex or April would be terribly lazy, though. A twist for twist's sake. You can point out as many parallels as you want to have it "make sense," but it doesn't keep it from being an unnecessary contrivance. Let the characters stand on their own. If Alopex or April aren't interesting enough on their own without doubling as another person for a shock, then those characters are in trouble. And if they are interesting, then it's definitely too much if they are two people. I supposed there's always a way to make it work, but I'm just not fond of the idea at the moment.

Plus, yeah. I don't even want the question of whether April and Splinter should "get back together" to come up.

[oldmanwinters]

I do think that reincarnating her as an established character such as Alopex or April would be terribly lazy, though. A twist for twist's sake.

I concur with this.

[corvus]

Not gonna happen. I'll put money on that. Shen will stay dead. This thread kind of annoys me.

[Allio]

*inb4 aloplex is tangshen*

[Jester]

*inb4 aloplex is tangshen*
Um...It's in first post.

[Cowabunga Carl]

:trolleye:Hey we've become 4chan! This is awesome!:trolleye:

[Lampy]

I'm not inherently against Tang Shen coming back. As some have noted, she is a virtually an unused character, mostly a means to push the plot along in the turtles' origin. I loved seeing a bit more of her in the Splinter micro.

I do think that reincarnating her as an established character such as Alopex or April would be terribly lazy, though. A twist for twist's sake. You can point out as many parallels as you want to have it "make sense," but it doesn't keep it from being an unnecessary contrivance. Let the characters stand on their own. If Alopex or April aren't interesting enough on their own without doubling as another person for a shock, then those characters are in trouble. And if they are interesting, then it's definitely too much if they are two people. I supposed there's always a way to make it work, but I'm just not fond of the idea at the moment.

Plus, yeah. I don't even want the question of whether April and Splinter should "get back together" to come up.

i agree with this. let the characters be their own characters. if they don't become interesting... kill them off and let them stay dead. like i said... all your points make sense and they could work (like... if they absolutely MUST make tang shen into either alopex or april... then i'd prefer they go with what you're suggesting) but i'd prefer they tang shen and all these other female characters hold their own ground.

[Candy Kappa]

If Thang Shen is alive in any form, it would be like reviving Uncle Ben or Thomas and Martha Wayne

[Jester]

If Thang Shen is alive in any form, it would be like reviving Uncle Ben or Thomas and Martha Wayne
See...HE GETS IT!

[Lampy]

See...HE GETS IT!

:tlol: you're funny bro. a reference to that other thread?

[Plasticplayhouse]

If Thang Shen is alive in any form, it would be like reviving Uncle Ben

in a sense it's like uncle ben never left anyway; his rice is something of legend.


on a serious note...tang need to remain in the past. april/tang is the worst possible scenario. casey would eventually be the turtles step daddy if that was the case.

[FoxZerro]

:tlol: you're funny bro. a reference to that other thread?

I certainly hope so. I mean I specifically made mention of both Bruce Wayne's parents and Uncle Ben faking their deaths to teach a lesson.

However if its not a reference then, it just goes to strengthening my point that bringing back Tang Shen perverts the origin of the turtles because someone else came to the same conclusion as me under separte circumstances.

[Raph's Girl]

If Thang Shen is alive in any form, it would be like reviving Uncle Ben or Thomas and Martha Wayne

Tang Shen being reincarnated would be nice but I don't think it wouldn't last. Heck last time Uncle Ben popped up it was one from an alternate Earth. Kinda the same with Thomas Wayne (he was Batman briefly before the whole DCNu thing happened)

April being Tang Shen would be creepy considering in most incarnations of TMNT Splinter and April have a father/daughter relationship...

Alopex being Tang Shen is POSSIBLY hinted at on the cover Secret History of the Foot.

[Toby Barrett]

IF the woman on the cover even IS Tang Shen.

[DarkLightDragon]

IF the woman on the cover even IS Tang Shen.



I thought I was the only one who believed this.

[Matches Malone]

There's a good chance that Alopex being hinted at on that cover isn't a coincidence, but there's an equally good chance that it may mean something other than her being reincarnated!

[Candy Kappa]

Tang Shen being reincarnated would be nice but I don't think it wouldn't last. Heck last time Uncle Ben popped up it was one from an alternate Earth. Kinda the same with Thomas Wayne (he was Batman briefly before the whole DCNu thing happened)

both examples the said characters are from an different world/reality. And in Flashpoint Bruce was the one who died and Thomas became the Batman.

It'd be like an alternative world where Tang Shen was Splinter :P


Or Silver Surfer Prime breaks the wall of reality...

[Jester]

It'd be like an alternative world where Tang Shen was Splinter :P
I'd so read that, actually.

[Candy Kappa]

I'd so read that, actually.

I really hope for TMNT elseworld comics, there so many variations that can be told.

[Xav]

If Thang Shen is alive in any form, it would be like reviving Uncle Ben or Thomas and Martha WayneOr Hamato Yoshi.

[Candy Kappa]

Or Hamato Yoshi.

To a point, but when Hamato Yoshi and Splinter is the same. It is a different story.

[The Big Bad]

If Thang Shen is alive in any form, it would be like reviving Uncle Ben or Thomas and Martha Wayne

This is the second time the claim has been made. History has proven that this is not the case, as various incarnations of the story have explicitly omitted her without affecting the story. Try to do that with Batman or Spider-Man (where even incarnations that don't explicitly mention their deaths operate under the assumption that they happened), and you end up with drastically different characters; the same is not true here.


What's more, there is a very good reason why reviving Uncle Ben or the Waynes doesn't work, and its because they inhabit the story in which regular people cannot come back from the dead, in theory, at least. However, in this version of the TMNT story, reincarnation and resurrection (see "Shredder, The") are apparently coded into the story's rules.

----

As for my particular preference, yes, I would prefer Shen be reincarnated, although not as April, Alopex, or anybody we actually know--the book's web of interconnected backstories is incestous enough as it is. My particular wish would be for her reincarnated self to be someone utterly unconnected to any other character, but for those characters' insistence that zie is the reincarnation of Yoshi's dead wife. Thus, zie could be used for an exploration of the question of how much the turtles' lives should adhere to the dynamics established in their other selves pasts, and how reliving those isn't a given--there's no reason why Splinter would expect Tang Shen reborn to fall in love with or marry him again, why he should pursue that as an avenue, or even for her to treat hir past family with any affection.

Even if that happens, I do with the series would treat her like a person instead of a prop. Splinter spent an entire year searching for Raphael, despite the increasing unlikelyhood of his continued life. I would like to see signs that he spent a comparable amount of time thinking about why they are reborn and why his dead wife apparently isn't. Is it because he didn't specifically wish for it? Is it because Fate or Karma or whatever thinks that only men get to be reincarnated, and that revenge is the only worthwhile motive for reincarnation?

[Toby Barrett]

It's because life at best is bittersweet?

[Lampy]

I certainly hope so. I mean I specifically made mention of both Bruce Wayne's parents and Uncle Ben faking their deaths to teach a lesson.

However if its not a reference then, it just goes to strengthening my point that bringing back Tang Shen perverts the origin of the turtles because someone else came to the same conclusion as me under separte circumstances.

i don't think you understand what i meant. i was talking about the "SEE ___, HE GETS IT!" line that was used in the "line in the sand" thread. i used it to say jester gets what i was talking about... then old hob countered with someone else "SEE... he gets it?!".

nothing really about what you're referring to. sorry... just thought it was funny.

[chrisdude]

Tang Shen will be an elder version of Venus.

Mother Turtle.

Her magic powers will save the day.

[FoxZerro]

i don't think you understand what i meant. i was talking about the "SEE ___, HE GETS IT!" line that was used in the "line in the sand" thread. i used it to say jester gets what i was talking about... then old hob countered with someone else "SEE... he gets it?!".

nothing really about what you're referring to. sorry... just thought it was funny.

Misinterpreted it my bad. Still I'm happy that other people see the death of Tang Shen as a serious driving point behind the IDW Turtles and I'm not the only one.

This is the second time the claim has been made. History has proven that this is not the case, as various incarnations of the story have explicitly omitted her without affecting the story. Try to do that with Batman or Spider-Man (where even incarnations that don't explicitly mention their deaths operate under the assumption that they happened), and you end up with drastically different characters; the same is not true here.

The difference being that in this incarnation of the Turtles story Tang Shen has been established as a part of what drives the group. Splinter clearly remembers what happened and what he promised her and how that promise cost he and their children their lives. Leonardo also has been having vague memories come to him as shown in his micro.

Keep stating your point as much as you want about Tang Shen's death not being necessary to drive the story, but the fact is that in this world it happened and has a lasting effect that would be tarnished if it were revealed that she were reincarnated and alive.

[Lampy]

Misinterpreted it my bad. Still I'm happy that other people see the death of Tang Shen as a serious driving point behind the IDW Turtles and I'm not the only one.

The difference being that in this incarnation of the Turtles story Tang Shen has been established as a part of what drives the group. Splinter clearly remembers what happened and what he promised her and how that promise cost he and their children their lives. Leonardo also has been having vague memories come to him as shown in his micro.

Keep stating your point as much as you want about Tang Shen's death not being necessary to drive the story, but the fact is that in this world it happened and has a lasting effect that would be tarnished if it were revealed that she were reincarnated and alive.

it's all good dude! i agree with you on this. Tang Shen plays a more essential role IN THIS PARTICULAR incarnation. i think this is the biggest role she's ever played in all the incarnations. i like that she has such a heavy influence in the way splinter behaves. if it weren't for her... in this universe... the turtles would not exist. that alone shows her thread in this particular web of events. cut her out... and everything falls apart. all you'll get is saki and yoshi duking it out in feudal japan. and i'm pretty sure... had it not been for tang shen... yoshi would've died sooner (probably stormed the foot headquarters alone in his rage).... rather than flee with his kids. had it not been for that promise to her... yoshi's sons would have been killed sooner and eventually not have been reincarnated... thus no Turtles. just splinter... maybe. but tang shen's actions here influence the Turtles and Splinter in a much deeper level. in that choosing to flee over vengeance allowed yoshi to reevaluate his motives and behavior.

many can claim that the OT did not incorporate Tang Shen... and for that universe it worked. but different universe... different rules... different outcomes. Maybe the phrase should be reworded: "IDW Tang Shen is the IDW TMNT equivalent to Uncle Ben and Martha/Thomas Wayne."

[FoxZerro]

many can claim that the OT did not incorporate Tang Shen... and for that universe it worked. but different universe... different rules... different outcomes. Maybe the phrase should be reworded: "IDW Tang Shen is the IDW TMNT equivalent to Uncle Ben and Martha/Thomas Wayne."

Well said man. I'm not sure why we are dictating that something that worked in the OT should influence events here at all anyway

[Lampy]

Well said man. I'm not sure why we are dictating that something that worked in the OT should influence events here at all anyway

i think naysayers of this statement are thinking of TMNT as a whole... as a franchise. and in most incarnations... the statement is true. but what makes this statement so easy to shoot down is that the most (arguably) famous incarnation of the franchise does not include a Tang Shen.

[Matches Malone]

i think naysayers of this statement are thinking of TMNT as a whole... as a franchise. and in most incarnations... the statement is true. but what makes this statement so easy to shoot down is that the most (arguably) famous incarnation of the franchise does not include a Tang Shen.

No argument about it. The Fred Wolf cartoon is easily the most popular and famous aspect of TMNT. Perhaps not most critically acclaimed, but there's no doubt which franchise put TMNT on the map as a global phenomenon.

[ToTheNines]

No argument about it. The Fred Wolf cartoon is easily the most popular and famous aspect of TMNT. Perhaps not most critically acclaimed, but there's no doubt which franchise put TMNT on the map as a global phenomenon.

People always say that, but I strongly disagree. I feel like the movie trilogy is the most popular.

[Matches Malone]

People always say that, but I strongly disagree. I feel like the movie trilogy is the most popular.

I think it's possible, but with the crazy amounts of merchandise (t-shirts, toys, video games, etc.) that are tied in with the cartoon, heck even the movies tie back to it, I'd still argue that Fred Wolf is what most people associate TMNT with. I guess they all tie into each other so much that it becomes a little less clear cut, but the cartoon is definitely what started it all, which is where the argument comes from.

[chrisdude]

I think it's possible, but with the crazy amounts of merchandise (t-shirts, toys, video games, etc.) that are tied in with the cartoon, heck even the movies tie back to it, I'd still argue that Fred Wolf is what most people associate TMNT with. I guess they all tie into each other so much that it becomes a little less clear cut, but the cartoon is definitely what started it all, which is where the argument comes from.Maybe it's rolling. Young adults are fond of the cartoon, but kids today probably don't know it all, because they just aren't anywhere to be seen. But at least some kids know the movies. They don't disappear as easily as an off-air show.

It'd be cool to talk to some kids who were introduced to TMNT by the 4kids show...

[Matches Malone]

Maybe it's rolling. Young adults are fond of the cartoon, but kids today probably don't know it all, because they just aren't anywhere to be seen. But at least some kids know the movies. They don't disappear as easily as an off-air show.

It'd be cool to talk to some kids who were introduced to TMNT by the 4kids show...

That's very true regarding the movies having more staying power in the public eye... I guess you could say the newer generations are more likely exposed to TMNT through the newest cartoon/toy versions or the old movies as opposed to Fred Wolf, but I think in terms of sheer numbers, the cartoon is still where they are known, they've just all grown up now. Probably why TMNT and other 80's properties like Thundercats and Transformers are associated with older fans now. Any TMNT shirt you see worn by anyone these days is from there, albeit as a bit of nostalgia.

Boy, this thread that originally derailed a different thread has been officially derailed itself! To contribute to the actual topic, I think the cartoon is why I would definitely say that the argument that Tang Shen is TMNT's Uncle Ben is a bit overstated. The turtles are not defined by her death, they are indirectly created by it. I guess you could say Tang Shen is more in line with the radioactive spider that bit Peter Parker. They're both important, but I don't think it necessarily changes the turtles' core characters if something were to be changed. They are just there to give them their "powers" in their origin stories. Arguably, even the spider is more important than Tang Shen.

Tang Shen was just there to give Yoshi & Saki an excuse (from the writer's standpoint) to feud and thus create the turtles' pathway to ninjitsu, but Uncle Ben gives Spider-man a reason for his actions and beliefs. If Tang Shen comes back, the turtles won't stop knowing ninjitsu, but if Uncle Ben were to come back, the lesson and the consequences of Peter Parker's actions learned would be lessened. I'm not saying I want her to come back, I'm just throwing my two cents on her importance to the turtles' origin. Splinter is definitely TMNT's Uncle Ben. The turtles would not be who they are, as characters or ninjas, without him.

[Archon_Turtle]

Tang Shen is Old Hob!

kdhhQhqi_AE

[Lampy]

That's very true regarding the movies having more staying power in the public eye... I guess you could say the newer generations are more likely exposed to TMNT through the newest cartoon/toy versions or the old movies as opposed to Fred Wolf, but I think in terms of sheer numbers, the cartoon is still where they are known, they've just all grown up now. Probably why TMNT and other 80's properties like Thundercats and Transformers are associated with older fans now. Any TMNT shirt you see worn by anyone these days is from there, albeit as a bit of nostalgia.

Boy, this thread that originally derailed a different thread has been officially derailed itself! To contribute to the actual topic, I think the cartoon is why I would definitely say that the argument that Tang Shen is TMNT's Uncle Ben is a bit overstated. The turtles are not defined by her death, they are indirectly created by it. I guess you could say Tang Shen is more in line with the radioactive spider that bit Peter Parker. They're both important, but I don't think it necessarily changes the turtles' core characters if something were to be changed. They are just there to give them their "powers" in their origin stories. Arguably, even the spider is more important than Tang Shen.

Tang Shen was just there to give Yoshi & Saki an excuse (from the writer's standpoint) to feud and thus create the turtles' pathway to ninjitsu, but Uncle Ben gives Spider-man a reason for his actions and beliefs. If Tang Shen comes back, the turtles won't stop knowing ninjitsu, but if Uncle Ben were to come back, the lesson and the consequences of Peter Parker's actions learned would be lessened. I'm not saying I want her to come back, I'm just throwing my two cents on her importance to the turtles' origin. Splinter is definitely TMNT's Uncle Ben. The turtles would not be who they are, as characters or ninjas, without him.

yea... we Turtles fans get sidetracked a lot. attention span of a turtle? hah!
but interesting point of view matches... not sure i agree with it... but very interesting. i've never thought of it like that. the radioactive spider never crossed my mind. if you're right... and doing by your judgment on the subject alone... if tang shen came back and one character's actions were to change... it'd be splinter. so in a sense... by what you stated up here... Tang Shen is Splinter's Uncle Ben... not the Turtles. Should she be reincarnated... the one person who'd be affected the most would indeed be splinter and as a result the turtles follow suit. interesting 2 cents, matches.:tthumbsu: