What is it that this new series has...

[MST3KFan]

...that the previous attempts at TMNT revival after the original cartoon series did not?

The toys are selling like crazy, the cartoon is widely watched...

I'm just curious here as to how the new Nick 2012 show seems to have struck that TMNT chord perfectly that the original cartoon and toyline did back in the late 80s.
I hear everywhere on the internet about how it's a big hit. The toys are predicted to be a big seller for the holiday season.

What is it that this latest incarnation has that the previous TMNT stuff that came after the original series did not that seems to have clicked?
Is it the mix of classic with a more modern feel? Is it that fact that there is a lot of nods to the original cartoon and toyline in everything? I'm curious.

Don't get me wrong here. I enjoy the new toys and cartoon. I just recall no where near that much attention given to say...the 2003 series or obviously Next Mutation...

Let us discusss thoughts.

[Donatello19]

Simple, it's on Nickelodeon.

[NinjaMan]

For me, I personally like the brotherly chemistry. That's my favorite part besides the character designs. The 4 of them really act like brothers. For my 3 year old, I think she likes the designs of the characters. And after a few mins of watching the premier she knew all 4 of their names and their colors.

[chrisdude]

Simple, it's on Nickelodeon.

Yup. Nick was promoting the bajeesus out of this, long before anyone had a chance to see how good it was.

That being said, I doubt any version of TMNT has been so widely accepted and praised by fans since the first or second movie...

[MrTMNT2012]

Its doing amazingly well because of the people behind it. They got Emmys, Annies, Peabody Awards, all kinds of wonderful talent and Voice Talent behind it! It's Nickelodeons BEST Show right now. They understood what made these characters so popular in the 90's and they are doing a damn fine job at recapturing that magic for the new generation (Something the 2003 Series Completely missed).

I was thinking about how Spongebob is Nickelodeons highest viewed show right now (2nd Being Turtles) and how TMNT should have beaten it in terms of views by now but, Spongebob had very low views when it started out and it got higher and higher as the Show went along resulting in Video Games, Movies, TV Specials, Figures.

Just think about this Show in a few years....it's already doing really good so It's only gonna get more popular (Unless I'm missing something). I don't know about the action figures, can someone give me proof that its selling more than the 2003 figures line?

And as for the viewers for the Show, the Newest Episode garnered 2.8 Million during thanksgiving and keep in mind most people thought a new Episode wouldn't air so its doing really good! I'm sure the series will stay at 3 Million average for its 1st Season. Does anyone have the Kids 6-12 Ratings for last Saturdays Episode? And I'm really eager to know what Kids think of this new Show, does anybody know?

[Galactus]

Big company behind it.

I don't think 2K3 did shabbily at all. The CGI movie didn't either and while bringing new elements in was essentialy a sanitized version of the show.

Let's not forget that it was the movie that made Nick want to do a CGI series and while again using new elements the new series is very much inspired by the 2K7 movie.

[CyberCubed]

The show isn't that big a hit ratings wise at least not yet. Ratings have been declining rapidly since the opener.

[Irishmile]

Good writing, good cast, good animation, good promotion, qualitly toys, and yes being on Nick has really helped.

[BubblyShell22]

I like the fact that it has everything in it. Not just lighthearted stuff but that it can get dark and gritty as well. Plus, all of the references to what came before hasn't hurt either. I love this show and hope that it sticks around for a long time. Don't get me wrong, I loved 2K3 and the CGI movie, but this show has a lot more to it, and that's what I like. Plus, the fighting scenes are awesome.

[TurtleTitan97]

I really like the fact that the turtles actually act and look like teens in this show. Also love the amazing fight scenes in this show, along with the Japanese influcence, like the turtles and Splinter speaking Japanese, using chopsticks, etc.

[Coola Yagami]

Kinda cool how the Turtles and Splinter are a family... without having to call each other 'brother' and 'father' every few minutes.

[TMNT-Leonardo]

I like how the turtles act more like brothers to each other than the other TV incarnations. The 87 series for example, I got more of a best friend feeling with they way they inceract with each other.

I also like how Splinter is written. To date, he's probably my favorite TV version. The way he talks and teaches the turtles, makes me feel like he's an actual Sensei. Not to mention little body gestures like walking with his hands behind him (which my Sifu does).

The martial art teachings that Spilnter says are also well written.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I like the family dynamics. This is my favorite version of Splinter as well.

The way he grounded his kids for making a mess and he knew they're sneaking out but he still waited for them to spit out what's happened in "I Think His Name Is Baxter Stockman" (he later retract the grounded part, but he still punished them) is really spot on how much of a stern but fair dad he was.

I like how Leo likes hanging out with Raph, how Mikey loves annoying everyone and how easily high strung and short tempered Don was with the shenanigans (Don's always been my favorite, but he was WAY too nice in 2K3). Actually, RAPH gave the impression he's the sane one among his brothers' quirkiness, and that's a refreshing view instead of "angry black sheep".

[Coola Yagami]

I like the family dynamics. This is my favorite version of Splinter as well.

The way he grounded his kids for making a mess and he knew they're sneaking out but he still waited for them to spit out what's happened in "I Think His Name Is Baxter Stockman" (he later retract the grounded part, but he still punished them) is really spot on how much of a stern but fair dad he was.

I like how Leo likes hanging out with Raph, how Mikey loves annoying everyone and how easily high strung and short tempered Don was with the shenanigans (Don's always been my favorite, but he was WAY too nice in 2K3). Actually, RAPH gave the impression he's the sane one among his brothers' quirkiness, and that's a refreshing view instead of "angry black sheep".

yeah I notice that. Between Leo's superhero antics, Don's technobabble nerdiness and Mikey being Mikey, Raph seems to be the one with the most common sense, despite his 'fight first ask later' attitude.

[Galactus]

Kinda cool how the Turtles and Splinter are a family... without having to call each other 'brother' and 'father' every few minutes.

I can't think of any iteration of TMNT that has done this. In fact the turtles calling Splinter "father" started with the aforementioned CGI flick and was jumped on in BTTS which felt a bit odd since while the 2003 turtles clearly viewed him as their father they never referred to him as such prior to that season. The Nick turtles have done this more than any other iteration. Surely small things like this arn't the reason why the Nick show seems to be a bigger revival than past attempts?

I stand by the fact that a bigger company is behind it and thus gets bigger results.

Another reason I think is the growing presence of the internet and growing presence of blogs and social networking and specificaly sites dedicated to nerd culture. There's all manner of websites dedicated to promoting comic book related and sci fi and fantasy properties. Not many of these things were around back in '03 to feature the 4kids show. There were no websites reviewing it or posting info about upcoming episodes or hyping up characters that may appear. The new show had benefitted greatly from this in my opinion.

[zodiac brave]

im just now watching the bulk of the 2k3 series and i feel like a lot of times it takes itself a lil too seriously and tries a bit too hard to be "cool". don't get me wrong, i absolutely love it, but it feels like it doesn't have the same confidence behind it that the nick series does. it feels like the nick show is perfectly comfortable being a tween show and can strafe the line between super-cute/kiddie and bad-ass/awesome with ease.

[CyberCubed]

im just now watching the bulk of the 2k3 series and i feel like a lot of times it takes itself a lil too seriously and tries a bit too hard to be "cool". don't get me wrong, i absolutely love it, but it feels like it doesn't have the same confidence behind it that the nick series does.

What on earth do you mean by, "same confidence?"

The 4kids series actually pushed the boundaries for what was allowed on Saturday mornings, some of the action (and death scenes) were something nobody expected the show to do. The series had actual impalement for goodness sakes. As well as the sense of continuity.

If only the 4kids series had better humor, which was what it lacked overall, it would have been even better.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Nickelodeon is a huge company that everyone watches, and they've got great voice actors under their wing. The 4Kids incanation never got this attention because KidsWB was not a widely known channel.

[The Big Bad]

What on earth do you mean by, "same confidence?"

The 4kids series actually pushed the boundaries for what was allowed on Saturday mornings, some of the action (and death scenes) were something nobody expected the show to do. The series had actual impalement for goodness sakes. As well as the sense of continuity.

If only the 4kids series had better humor, which was what it lacked overall, it would have been even better.

That has more to do with guts, though, which doesn't necessarily translate into confidence. Confidence in this context is the absolute belief that what one is doing will work, and I agree that this cartoon exhudes it in ways the 4kids toon did. For example, the first and second seasons of the 4Kids toon occasionally had parts where the turtles would recap what had gone before in very forced ways (these are separate from the opening narrations/recaps). These scenes were completely unecessary, and (to me, anyway) gave the impression that they'd been included out of fear that the viewers would not be able to follow the ongoing plot. More notably, the entire seventh season is lacking in confidence, which is why a lot of it was spent on a retread of previous plotlines.

The Nick cartoon, on the other hand, has a lot of confidence in what it's doing. In telling their version of their story, they've changed around a lot of things, and have gone about those changes in an unapologetic way. The show as it is drips with the belief that they really are making the best version of the turtles ever. Heck, it's the reason why I don't have any confidence that the show will become more enjoyable for me over time: if they have absolute confidence in their awesomeness, then there's no reason for them to ever change.

[CyberCubed]

Gargoyles had the same recaps before most episodes. They would show clips from Season 1 episodes while we were in the end of Season 2 for example just
to remind people of something that happened 50 or so episodes ago.

As for the Nick show, what exactly did they change?

- Splinter being Hamato Yoshi again was something they knew would be accepted because its his original cartoon origin and what people are used to.

- The Turtles having new enemies/mutants, etc. is done in every incarnation, everyone knew there would be new characters. Some aren't well received like Spiderbitez while others are.

- The Kraang are basically evil versions of the Utroms.

- April being 16 was the major game changer, but everyone feels it worked out for the best because these Turtles act like real teens. Having April closer to their age has worked out wonderfully.

- Mike's nunchucks becoming a Kurisama is no big deal and is accepted.

- The alterations to the Turtles personalities is something that's done in every incarnation, but in essence they still have the same basic character archetypes they've always had.

[pannoni1]

You forgot one important thing: this series has more people who were fans growing up watching earlier series compared to the other versions, meaning that the staff actually can use some material to incorporate all of the Easter Eggs and twist off some earlier concepts into the show. 4kids didn't have this since the franchise was coming off of its dark period, as Turtles Forever shows with its misconceptions of the 1987 Turtles. However, on the flip side, it is facing much more competition than it ever did, with a mix of classic franchises either making a comeback or continue to sell (Power Rangers, Pokemon, Transformers, Spongebob, My Little Pony) along with newer brands (Kung Fu Panda, Cars) meaning that promotion is more important than ever to having success, and a large company like Nickelodeon proves that it can, with clues about the show in a much more diversified setting (Mall of America, Comic Con, the Toy Fair, Thanksigiving Parade) to maximize exposure. Let's hope this continues.

[The Big Bad]

Gargoyles had the same recaps before most episodes. They would show clips from Season 1 episodes while we were in the end of Season 2 for example just
to remind people of something that happened 50 or so episodes ago.

As for the Nick show, what exactly did they change?

- Splinter being Hamato Yoshi again was something they knew would be accepted because its his original cartoon origin and what people are used to.

- The Turtles having new enemies/mutants, etc. is done in every incarnation, everyone knew there would be new characters. Some aren't well received like Spiderbitez while others are.

- The Kraang are basically evil versions of the Utroms.

- April being 16 was the major game changer, but everyone feels it worked out for the best because these Turtles act like real teens. Having April closer to their age has worked out wonderfully.

- Mike's nunchucks becoming a Kurisama is no big deal and is accepted.

- The alterations to the Turtles personalities is something that's done in every incarnation, but in essence they still have the same basic character archetypes they've always had.

Gosh, it's like I didn't even say that the recaps I mentioned are not the ones from the opening. And yet there the distinction is, plain as day. I have no idea what happened to make you unable to see it, and hope it is not permanent.

As for what has changed besides the things you've mentioned...lessee: plotting, pacing, atmosphere, tone, message, aesthetics, text, subtext, metatext, and in general, anything having to do with the execution of the story--do those not count as "changes"? More importantly, do you truly believe that these do not inform what the writers believe, or that they do not have the ability to affect how the work is received by the audience? If that's the case, then congratulations!: I simply don't know just what to say to you.

[CyberCubed]

But changes from what, exactly? Of course the show wasn't going to repeat the same exact plotlines from either the OT or 4kids series.

The changes they made has to do with the family dynamic between Splinter and the brothers and now April. That is from what I can tell the most well received part of the how thus far.

This is a character driven show, as most of the plots so far are simple and basic, but its the interaction between the cast and villains that makes it enjoyable. The OT worked this angle well too because that's why people can still enjoy the show as adults.

[Lisardo]

im just now watching the bulk of the 2k3 series and i feel like a lot of times it takes itself a lil too seriously and tries a bit too hard to be "cool". don't get me wrong, i absolutely love it, but it feels like it doesn't have the same confidence behind it that the nick series does. it feels like the nick show is perfectly comfortable being a tween show and can strafe the line between super-cute/kiddie and bad-ass/awesome with ease.

Yeah. I like that well-roundedness about it as well. It's a little bit of everything; 'serious' mixed in with 'old skool goofiness'. Perfect mix all around.

[zodiac brave]

What on earth do you mean by, "same confidence?"



exactly what the big bad said. specifically,
The Nick cartoon, on the other hand, has a lot of confidence in what it's doing. In telling their version of their story, they've changed around a lot of things, and have gone about those changes in an unapologetic way. The show as it is drips with the belief that they really are making the best version of the turtles ever. Heck, it's the reason why I don't have any confidence that the show will become more enjoyable for me over time: if they have absolute confidence in their awesomeness, then there's no reason for them to ever change.

its the way the nick crew is just balls-out going for it in their own way. i think its more esoteric than specific. you pointed out a lot particular details:
- Splinter being Hamato Yoshi again was something they knew would be accepted because its his original cartoon origin and what people are used to.

- The Turtles having new enemies/mutants, etc. is done in every incarnation, everyone knew there would be new characters. Some aren't well received like Spiderbitez while others are.

- The Kraang are basically evil versions of the Utroms.

- April being 16 was the major game changer, but everyone feels it worked out for the best because these Turtles act like real teens. Having April closer to their age has worked out wonderfully.

- Mike's nunchucks becoming a Kurisama is no big deal and is accepted.

- The alterations to the Turtles personalities is something that's done in every incarnation, but in essence they still have the same basic character archetypes they've always had.

but what i was referring to was the vibe of the show in relation to its execution as whole and not in the details per se.

yeah, every incarnation is different, but to me, the 2k3 series seems like it feels absolutely beholden to honor the past and does it in such a heavy-handed way. its like they're saying, " hey! get this?? its a reference to this!" where as the nick show just kinda throws it in the background and lets it meld into the nick version of the story.

and dont get me wrong...i'm LOVING the 4kids show. it's great! but that doesnt change that the nick show just seems more comfortable and confident being what it is. and that might also be because they're 2 different types of shows. as i've mentioned (and i think is fairly obvious and accepted) the nick show's target demo is tweens, whereas the 4kids show was trying to be something a little darker, and "cooler" than that.

my point is that the current show is excelling at what its trying to do, where (IMO) the 4kids show stumbled a bit in trying to accomplish what it wanted.

[DonatelloNinja82]

You forgot one important thing: this series has more people who were fans growing up watching earlier series compared to the other versions, meaning that the staff actually can use some material to incorporate all of the Easter Eggs and twist off some earlier concepts into the show. 4kids didn't have this since the franchise was coming off of its dark period, as Turtles Forever shows with its misconceptions of the 1987 Turtles. However, on the flip side, it is facing much more competition than it ever did, with a mix of classic franchises either making a comeback or continue to sell (Power Rangers, Pokemon, Transformers, Spongebob, My Little Pony) along with newer brands (Kung Fu Panda, Cars) meaning that promotion is more important than ever to having success, and a large company like Nickelodeon proves that it can, with clues about the show in a much more diversified setting (Mall of America, Comic Con, the Toy Fair, Thanksigiving Parade) to maximize exposure. Let's hope this continues.


You make a good point, esp about Turtles Forever. They totally made the 87 turtles way goofier than they really were. My oldest son, aged 8 1/2, watched that first (along with some of 2k3 so far), and swore up and down that he would hate the OT because of the goofiness. Leo is his favorite and he couldnt stand how Leo acted in Turtles Forever. I told him to give OT a chance and showed him some Leo-centric episodes, and that changed his tune! He still doesnt like OT as much as 2k12 or 2k3, but its ok :)

[Irishmile]

You make a good point, esp about Turtles Forever. They totally made the 87 turtles way goofier than they really were. My oldest son, aged 8 1/2, watched that first (along with some of 2k3 so far), and swore up and down that he would hate the OT because of the goofiness. Leo is his favorite and he couldnt stand how Leo acted in Turtles Forever. I told him to give OT a chance and showed him some Leo-centric episodes, and that changed his tune! He still doesnt like OT as much as 2k12 or 2k3, but its ok :)

My Son (10) likes the 4kids and '12 series better than the OT also.. but he still likes them... His favorite turtle alternates between Raph and Mike.

[Method101]

The show isn't that big a hit ratings wise at least not yet. Ratings have been declining rapidly since the opener.

oh wow really? I thought this whole time, ratings were on the rise, obviously somewhat of a decline from episode 1 to 2

[BubblyShell22]

I think the reason this series is so good is because they start off with better development. In the OT and 4Kids series, it's already established that Leo is the leader, while in this series he's actually shown being chosen to be leader. The Turtles are acting younger in this series than in 4Kids (as I always thought they seemed older than fifteen based on what they had to go through all the time), and they're still learning more about the surface and about themselves. I like how Nick has done that and has given the Turtles something different to work with rather than make them what they were before. It's just so cool.

[Refractive Reflections]

As most people have said its a balance of gritty fighting scenes and humorous comedy, plus the focus on character interaction and development is what makes its appeal, just like the OT did, because it makes the characters more relatable.

In my opinion, the 2003 TMNT version was just...eh, okay...because the tone seemed too dedicated to prove itself as being "too cool" for the OT silliness. (Remember when 2003 Raph kept hitting Michelangelo before he could say "Cowabunga"?) I know the cartoon was supposed to reflect the Mirage comic more, but the 2003 version seemed too focused on being serious just to distinguish itself from the OT rather than establishing its own unique identity.

Since TMNT had now two different animated extremes of humor and seriousness, this 2012 CGI version had no where else to go but...in the middle somewhere just to make itself "different" from the other 2 previous versions.

One thing though you have to consider is that Nickelodeon, is FOR younger kids (5-9 years old) rather than the OT and 2003 version which could appeal to older kids up to 12 years old. In the 2003 version, the TMNT came across as young adults in their early 20s in both behavior and size (almost 'roided looking at times). In the OT version, the characters legitimately looked and acted like mid-teens (15-17 years old). In this Nick version, they seem more like "Tweenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" (around 10-13 years old) and since they are closer to their demographic its much more appealing.

Another aspect to consider is the size of the Nickelodeon channel itself promoting the show, its a powerful cable station unlike 4Kids CW which was a small network station, but it doesn't have the huge public audience like CBS/network syndication did (and FCC regulations) as with the OT. I don't think the appeal and success of this 2012 CGI version is a "surprise" to anyone since the TMNT brand has proven itself before in previous incarnations and movies unlike the OT which was COMPLETELY new/revolutionary to the general public (outside of the underground comic world) that made it so phenomenal.

[CyberCubed]

In my opinion, the 2003 TMNT version was just...eh, okay...because the tone seemed too dedicated to prove itself as being "too cool" for the OT silliness. (Remember when 2003 Raph kept hitting Michelangelo before he could say "Cowabunga"?) I know the cartoon was supposed to reflect the Mirage comic more, but the 2003 version seemed too focused on being serious just to distinguish itself from the OT rather than establishing its own unique identity.

What are you talking about? The 2003 series was meant to reflect the modern action cartoons as seen in the DC superhero shows, Gargoyles, etc. There's a reason its considered one of the best cartoons of the 2000's.

Since TMNT had now two different animated extremes of humor and seriousness, this 2012 CGI version had no where else to go but...in the middle somewhere just to make itself "different" from the other 2 previous versions.

This I'll agree with.

[TMNT-Leonardo]

What are you talking about? The 2003 series was meant to reflect the modern action cartoons as seen in the DC superhero shows, Gargoyles, etc. There's a reason its considered one of the best cartoons of the 2000's.

It is? Because I thought it was ok, but not great.

[zodiac brave]

The 2003 series was meant to reflect the modern action cartoons as seen in the DC superhero shows, Gargoyles, etc.

it did have things in common with them, but i don't think it was as good as those...well, not as good as the DCAU at least...i havent watched Gargoyles in prolly over 15 years. (which is something i should rectify soon...)

There's a reason its considered one of the best cartoons of the 2000's.


is it really, though?

[Coola Yagami]

What are you talking about? The 2003 series was meant to reflect the modern action cartoons as seen in the DC superhero shows, Gargoyles, etc. There's a reason its considered one of the best cartoons of the 2000's.

uh... no. The first season (at least) tried too hard to show off that 'this ain't the 80's toon', instead of just ignoring the past and doing its own thing. I kinda think the lurking in the shadows, actual martial arts fighting and Shredder being scary was more than enough without throwing in the 'stop saying Cowabunga!!!' bit.

I think once they started um... kinda/sorta adapting the Mirage comics storylines (Shredder Strikes Back/Return to New York) and became more of its own with Chrell, the Battle Nexus and so forth, it completely became its own entity and stopped focusing on 'being way more cool than the 80's' version.

[Avatar Yuffie]

IIRC Avatar the Last Airbender, Ben 10 (this one has the most toys available in my local toy store) and Justice League got the attention of the 2000 kids.

I don't know if this version of TMNT can compete with Adventure Time though.

[zodiac brave]

IIRC Avatar the Last Airbender, Ben 10 (this one has the most toys available in my local toy store) and Justice League got the attention of the 2000 kids.

I don't know if this version of TMNT can compete with Adventure Time though.

i dont have cable...do adventure time and ninja turtles air in the same time-slot?

[CyberCubed]

is it really, though?

Are you joking? When it was airing for the first time it was critically acclaimed and put on the same level as the DC cartoons that were airing at the time.

Granted the show lost a bit of its quality in the last two seasons, but the show was considered excellent for the majority of its run.

[The Stryker]

I think other than not airing at the same time they're just two completely different shows.

Adventure Time is hitting on a bunch of levels right now. They got kids, teens, parents and the internet/hipster crowd. It's kind of amazing. We'll have to see if Turtles can catch up in terms of sheer awareness and popularity but they aren't in competition.

[Coola Yagami]

oddly enough, kids loved Fast Forward even though most of us fans hated it.

[CyberCubed]

oddly enough, kids loved Fast Forward even though most of us fans hated it.

Most fans got over their hatred once they saw Season 5 though. The initial hate was just from Season 5 being skipped and the animation taking a hit.

[Coola Yagami]

I also meant normal fans, not just Technodromers. Casuals and random kids wouldn't know there was a cancelled season 5 and just watch Fast Forward as is.

[zodiac brave]

Are you joking? When it was airing for the first time it was critically acclaimed and put on the same level as the DC cartoons that were airing at the time.


proof? not trying (too hard) to bust your chops, but you make a lot of these really matter of fact, sometimes sweeping statements. i just feel i gotta dig a lil deeper to make sure its not just your opinion being posed as fact... :ohwell:

I think other than not airing at the same time they're just two completely different shows.

Adventure Time is hitting on a bunch of levels right now. They got kids, teens, parents and the internet/hipster crowd. It's kind of amazing. We'll have to see if Turtles can catch up in terms of sheer awareness and popularity but they aren't in competition

tru dat. :tcool:

[Avatar Yuffie]

i dont have cable...do adventure time and ninja turtles air in the same time-slot?

I didn't mean time slot.

Adventure Time is a VERY POPULAR cartoon right now. It snags a huge demographic (kids and their parents and everyone else in between).

[zodiac brave]

I didn't mean time slot.

Adventure Time is a VERY POPULAR cartoon right now. It snags a huge demographic (kids and their parents and everyone else in between).

oic.

but i think stryker hit the nail right on the head. they really are two totally different styles of show. :)

[NinjaMan]

The 2003 toon was good but no where near the level of the DC animated shows. Those cartoons were special. No cartoons of the 2000s compare to them.

[CyberCubed]

proof? not trying (too hard) to bust your chops, but you make a lot of these really matter of fact, sometimes sweeping statements. i just feel i gotta dig a lil deeper to make sure its not just your opinion being posed as fact... :ohwell:

What proof do I need to give you aside from the fact that the majority of TMNT fans liked it?

I actually find this argument highly bizarre. The 4kids series is not some obscure unknown series you're making it out to be. It was on Saturday mornings for 7 years, it aired on reruns on Cartoon Network for at least 2 years, it had a huge toyline and videogames.

The only difference is it didn't air on Nick, so it didn't air on a channel kids watch as regularly.

[Coola Yagami]

What proof do I need to give you aside from the fact that the majority of TMNT fans liked it?

I actually find this argument highly bizarre. The 4kids series is not some obscure unknown series you're making it out to be. It was on Saturday mornings for 7 years, it aired on reruns on Cartoon Network for at least 2 years, it had a huge toyline and videogames.

The only difference is it didn't air on Nick, so it didn't air on a channel kids watch as regularly.

I think it's more of it being a hit with people OTHER than us Turtle fans. Remember, ratings were dropping when we were loving season 4.... and ratings shot up even though we hated Fast Forward.

It just kinda seems the 2K3 show was super-mega-awesome to US, I mean hey, this forum went apeshit when the series was released...... but the Nick version seems to be super-mega-awesome to EVERYONE ELSE and not just us. We have to remember, even if we liked or hated a TMNT related product, our views do not reflect or affect the rest of the 'real world' beyond this forum. Hell, we all could have downright HATED this new show, and it wouldn't have changed how big a hit it is to everyone else.

[CyberCubed]

I think it's more of it being a hit with people OTHER than us Turtle fans. Remember, ratings were dropping when we were loving season 4.... and ratings shot up even though we hated Fast Forward.

It just kinda seems the 2K3 show was super-mega-awesome to US, I mean hey, this forum went apeshit when the series was released...... but the Nick version seems to be super-mega-awesome to EVERYONE ELSE and not just us. We have to remember, even if we liked or hated a TMNT related product, our views do not reflect or affect the rest of the 'real world' beyond this forum. Hell, we all could have downright HATED this new show, and it wouldn't have changed how big a hit it is to everyone else.

I guarantee you if the 4kids series aired on a popular kids network like Nick it would have been just as popular.

Just think of how rich Nick/Viacom is compared to 4kids. 4kids was an anime dubbing company best known for Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh...and then you compare them to Nick who has been around for 30 years.

[zodiac brave]

What proof do I need to give you aside from the fact that the majority of TMNT fans liked it?

I actually find this argument highly bizarre. The 4kids series is not some obscure unknown series you're making it out to be. It was on Saturday mornings for 7 years, it aired on reruns on Cartoon Network for at least 2 years, it had a huge toyline and videogames.

The only difference is it didn't air on Nick, so it didn't air on a channel kids watch as regularly.

of course TMNT fans are going to like it. WE'RE TMNT FANS. that doesn't mean its absolutely loved by all...or even by all of the generation that grew up with it as their first exposure. also, being loved by TMNT fans doesn't automatically make it legendary or as good as any of the other franchises you mentioned.

as for it's obscurity...ummmm...it kinda is.

aside from the logical conclusion that it was hard to keep track of because it often changed time slots and channels...it's just not really a part of the grain of pop culture the way the first one was or the way its looking like the new show might become.

not that i'm someone who should be the basis for the argument, but the reason im just now catching up on the 2k3 series is because i could never really catch it and when i did...it seemed...meh. yes, i'm loving it now, but its because im taking the time and effort to appreciate it. at the time when i was a bit more casual, like all other non-hardcore fans, it just didnt catch my interest.

coola yagami summed it up very well, i think.

and by proof, i meant PROOF.

you said:
Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
Are you joking? When it was airing for the first time it was critically acclaimed and put on the same level as the DC cartoons that were airing at the time.

where are the critical acclaims? what articles are you thinking of that shows it was universally loved and placed along side those other great toons. as i mentioned, you make a lot of these really matter of fact, sometimes sweeping statements. i just feel i gotta dig a lil deeper to make sure its not just your opinion being posed as fact.

EDIT:
I guarantee you if the 4kids series aired on a popular kids network like Nick it would have been just as popular.

Just think of how rich Nick/Viacom is compared to 4kids. 4kids was an anime dubbing company best known for Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh...and then you compare them to Nick who has been around for 30 years.

you yourself are now saying it was done by an obscure company on an obscure network. :/

[CyberCubed]

as for it's obscurity...ummmm...it kinda is.

How on earth is it obscure? Everyone KNOWS it exists. Nobody thinks the Nick cartoon is the first revival of the property since the 80's. Have you ever come across anywhere on the internet that's acting like the Nick show is the first cartoon revival of the property? Nobody is saying, "Hey the Turtles are coming back with a second cartoon on Nick!" because everyone already knows the 4kids series was the first revival.

People also know of the failed Next Mutation series, so I don't know what you're talking about.

aside from the logical conclusion that it was hard to keep track of because it often changed time slots and channels...it's just not really a part of the grain of pop culture the way the first one was or the way its looking like the new show might become.

Nothing ever becomes popular as what comes first. Its the same for any property. Look at Power Rangers and Pokemon, people remember the beginnings of the franchise far more than what they are now.

And I don't think you know how the 4kids series actually aired. It aired on Saturday mornings at 10am EST for 7 years on the same channel. Reruns went to Cartoon Network. It didn't constantly change times.


where are the critical acclaims? what articles are you thinking of that shows it was universally loved and placed along side those other great toons. as i mentioned,

Go online to whereever the 4kids TMNT series is discussed. Read the old review threads for the episodes posted back in 2003-2009 when the show originally aired. Its pretty easy to find with the search feature.

[Cure]

So basically you have no proof and are making stuff up.

[CyberCubed]

So basically you have no proof and are making stuff up.

Are you actually being serious? Read any review threads for the 4kids series throughout the internet. There are also the old ratings for the 4kids series that if I remember correctly were the highest rated cartoon on its Saturday morning block at the time.

[zodiac brave]

How on earth is it obscure? Everyone KNOWS it exists. Nobody thinks the Nick cartoon is the first revival of the property since the 80's. Have you ever come across anywhere on the internet that's acting like the Nick show is the first cartoon revival of the property? Nobody is saying, "Hey the Turtles are coming back with a second cartoon on Nick!" because everyone already knows the 4kids series was the first revival.

maybe they know it exists, but ask a "civilian" about any details and i doubt they'd be able to give any...maybe something along the lines of, "they looked sharper..." vague at best.

People also know of the failed Next Mutation series, so I don't know what you're talking about.

and i don't know what you are.



Nothing ever becomes popular as what comes first. Its the same for any property. Look at Power Rangers and Pokemon, people remember the beginnings of the franchise far more than what they are now.

star trek the next gen is arguably more popular than the original and the star trek reboot is definately more popular than ANY of its predecessors. the dark knight trilogy vs the 80's-90's bat-films comes to mind also. and those are aimed at audiences that arent children. ask an actual child today if they'd prefer new super mario bros to the original. DCaU to Superfriends. THE NICK SHOW TO THE OT OR 2K3...

your arguments weak here.

And I don't think you know how the 4kids series actually aired. It aired on Saturday mornings at 10am EST for 7 years on the same channel. Reruns went to Cartoon Network. It didn't constantly change times.

really? hahaha! you're honestly so arrogant in your opinions that you're going to conclude that i just didn't know when it was on. dude, the show was syndicated. it aired at different times in different parts of the country. in south texas it DIDNT air for 7 years at the same time on the same channel.

*facepalm*


Go online to whereever the 4kids TMNT series is discussed. Read the old review threads for the episodes posted back in 2003-2009 when the show originally aired. Its pretty easy to find with the search feature.

AGAIN...of course its going to be loved by turtle fans. AGAIN...
that doesn't mean its absolutely loved by all...or even by all of the generation that grew up with it as their first exposure. also, being loved by TMNT fans doesn't automatically make it legendary or as good as any of the other franchises you mentioned.

you've got fan-goggles on, bruh. yes its a great show to us turtle fans but if a casual was to ask me how it compared to Batman TAS or Justice League, i'd be honest and tell them while i love it as a fan, it doesn't hold a candle to those.

[zodiac brave]

Are you actually being serious? Read any review threads for the 4kids series throughout the internet. There are also the old ratings for the 4kids series that if I remember correctly were the highest rated cartoon on its Saturday morning block at the time.

go find some and post em. :)

[shuriken]

Nothing ever becomes popular as what comes first. Its the same for any property. Look at Power Rangers and Pokemon, people remember the beginnings of the franchise far more than what they are now.


Not necessarily true, some reboots and revivals were more popular than what came before. Not always but sometimes. B:TAS wasn't the first Batman series or Cartoon but it has been considered the best by many for example.
And Power Rangers and Pokemon well the difference with that is they aren't rebooted so much as just a continuation of the same concept with different characters (Power Rangers at least). But whatevs
I personally really enjoy the Nick show. In terms of the 4kids show though, I feel that it took them a bit longer than the Nick show to really become comfortable in its own skin. It did try a a bit too hard to be the more bad-ass TMNT toon. A lot of times it worked, other times it comes off as being unintentionally funny or awkward. And as much as I enjoyed the cartoon, there are some terrible eps strewn about. Eventually I'd like to re-watch it for it's 10 year anniversary in its entirety, and see if i like it as much as I did when i was 14.
But franchises work in cycles and the TMNT have gone through a few in their 28 years of existence.

[CyberCubed]

maybe they know it exists, but ask a "civilian" about any details and i doubt they'd be able to give any...maybe something along the lines of, "they looked sharper..." vague at best.

You can say that FOR ANY SHOW. Most "casual" fans don't know anything that happened in the original cartoon either outside the basic premise. Who the hell can say off the top of their head what happened in 193 episodes of the original cartoon?

All people remember about it is the Turtles faced Shredder/Krang and the Technodrome in almost every episode. They can't give you episode to episode details either, so what are you talking about?

Can YOU even say what happened in most of the episodes of the OT off the top of your head? Of course not, there's 193 episodes and they all blur together.



and i don't know what you are.
star trek the next gen is arguably more popular than the original and the star trek reboot is definately more popular than ANY of its predecessors. the dark knight trilogy vs the 80's-90's bat-films comes to mind also. and those are aimed at audiences that arent children. ask an actual child today if they'd prefer new super mario bros to the original. DCaU to Superfriends. THE NICK SHOW TO THE OT OR 2K3...

You're talking about massively exposed properties. And the original Star Trek is still what's the "most remembered" due to its impact. Same reason the Star Wars prequel films didn't become more popular than the original trilogy. There are exceptions of course like you've said, but I'm sure you understand.

really? hahaha! you're honestly so arrogant in your opinions that you're going to conclude that i just didn't know when it was on. dude, the show was syndicated. it aired at different times in different parts of the country. in south texas it DIDNT air for 7 years at the same time on the same channel.

If you had the 4kids programming block it probably aired for its entire run. There's no way the series could have lasted close to a decade if it didn't air regularly in more than the east coast.

you've got fan-goggles on, bruh. yes its a great show to us turtle fans but if a casual was to ask me how it compared to Batman TAS or Justice League, i'd be honest and tell them while i love it as a fan, it doesn't hold a candle to those.

Well you're comparing it to great shows. I love the DCAU too, and I'll agree the characterisation and deep stories are above anything TMNT did. But then I'd say the same for the original toon and Nick show too, as entertaining as they are, they sure as hell don't have deep plots.

[zodiac brave]

You can say that FOR ANY SHOW. Most "casual" fans don't know anything that happened in the original cartoon either outside the basic premise. Who the hell can say off the top of their head what happened in 193 episodes of the original cartoon?

All people remember about it is the Turtles faced Shredder/Krang and the Technodrome in almost every episode. They can't give you episode to episode details either, so what are you talking about?

Can YOU even say what happened in most of the episodes of the OT off the top of your head? Of course not, there's 193 episodes and they all blur together.


but when you place it among other ACTUALLY memorable shows (like the DCaU) its just reaching. granted, how memorable the DCaU shows are can just as easily be argued and we'd be stuck in an infinite stupidity loop...



You're talking about massively exposed properties. And the original Star Trek is still what's the "most remembered" due to its impact. Same reason the Star Wars prequel films didn't become more popular than the original trilogy. There are exceptions of course like you've said, but I'm sure you understand.



oop! gotta call you on that. those prequels sucked because of the shallow banal stories and over produced visual effects. had they been good, who knows how popular (and well received) they woulda been. luckily in the next few years we'll get another chance at this with the star wars franchise. and yes the original star trek is remembered most...by adults. not kids...which was the point i was making.



If you had the 4kids programming block it probably aired for its entire run. There's no way the series could have lasted close to a decade if it didn't air regularly in more than the east coast.

sorry to pop your spit bubble castle there, but it didn't. and maybe it lasted despite that because the country (unfortunately) isn't just made up of south texas and the east coast.




Well you're comparing it to great shows. I love the DCAU too, and I'll agree the characterisation and deep stories are above anything TMNT did. But then I'd say the same for the original toon and Nick show too, as entertaining as they are, they sure as hell don't have deep plots.

actually, YOU compared it to the DCaU. but im glad you agree. heh.

[CyberCubed]

Well all I'm saying is people know the 4kids series exist, and most who have watched it enjoyed the majority of the series.

[Refractive Reflections]

Well, well, well.... lookie what I started.. LOL :roll:

I think I have to explain myself a bit though from my earlier comment, but I have to somewhat agree with this...
The 2003 toon was good but no where near the level of the DC animated shows. Those cartoons were special. No cartoons of the 2000s compare to them.

Now I was not bad mouthing the 2003 version or that it would eventually have its own unique tone, but its just very "off-putting" when any series (cartoon or any show) starts off comparing itself to another before it even established its own identity. When it started off, I was thinking "OKAY ALREADY. Dang! How long are you gonna keep telling us you're not the OT??"

I guarantee you if the 4kids series aired on a popular kids network like Nick it would have been just as popular.

Just think of how rich Nick/Viacom is compared to 4kids. 4kids was an anime dubbing company best known for Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh...and then you compare them to Nick who has been around for 30 years.

As for it being MORE popular if it was on Nickelodeon...I doubt Nickelodeon would even bother with that dark toned 2K3 series with a 10 foot pole because the cable station is noted for FAR brighter-themed cartoons.

You can say that FOR ANY SHOW. Most "casual" fans don't know anything that happened in the original cartoon either outside the basic premise. Who the hell can say off the top of their head what happened in 193 episodes of the original cartoon?

All people remember about it is the Turtles faced Shredder/Krang and the Technodrome in almost every episode. They can't give you episode to episode details either, so what are you talking about?

Can YOU even say what happened in most of the episodes of the OT off the top of your head? Of course not, there's 193 episodes and they all blur together.

Hmmm....with this heated remark, your nostalgia/fandom/sentiment for the 2K3 over the OT is CLEARLY showing here. I thought we were focusing on exposure and appeal of any TMNT series to the general public, and not comparing plots of the OT show.

My ending statement on this: As for the "best cartoons of the 2000s"? I know this is a TMNT forum, but really? Are we saying "best" as in popularity or in terms of critics' opinions because those are two completely different things. If the 2K3 was REALLY as popular and captivating as you say, it would have been incorporated into pop culture more (similar to the reboots of Star Trek) rather than prompting the general public about TMNT and a majority of them referring to the late 80s/early 90s phenomena of the OT, movies, arcade, merchandise, etc. (People forget that the OT was even MORE at a disadvantage in its beginnings since its future was completely uncertain and was a 5 episode story arc trial in syndication. Hindsight is 20/20, but foresight takes a greater vision.) I mean the OT was childish and silly beyond belief at times (like other cartoons), but it still was able to grab hold of the general adult public demographic (outside of the TMNT fandom) [U]which I haven't seen with the 2K3 series.

And a thank you "Zodiac Brave" and "Coola Yagami", for giving some objectivity support into this discussion...

[tmntfannumerouno]

Honestly the fact that it was on Nick wasn't necessarily a good thing for me. The last toon I watched on Nick was Rocket Power and since then not much from them has peaked my interest. But it was the Turtles so I did end up watching and wasn't disappointed. I've been watching ever since.

[zodiac brave]

And a thank you "Zodiac Brave" and "Coola Yagami", for giving some objectivity support into this discussion...

welcome! :D

[CyberCubed]

Now I was not bad mouthing the 2003 version or that it would eventually have its own unique tone, but its just very "off-putting" when any series (cartoon or any show) starts off comparing itself to another before it even established its own identity. When it started off, I was thinking "OKAY ALREADY. Dang! How long are you gonna keep telling us you're not the OT??"

It established its own identity right from the beginning. Those callbacks to the OT is the same thing Nick is doing. When Nick showed Mike's "OT face" isn't that the same thing?

Where the hell do you even get the idea that the 4kids series kept bringing up the original toon? In the first season all we got is a few "No Cowabunga" jokes and that's it. We later see April dress up as a news reporter in Season 2.


I mean the OT was childish and silly beyond belief at times (like other cartoons), but it still was able to grab hold of the general adult public demographic (outside of the TMNT fandom) which I haven't seen with the 2K3 series.

Seems to me many adults enjoyed watching the show judging by the review threads on Toonzone, TV.com, and other animation sites that don't have a TMNT bias.

[zodiac brave]

It established its own identity right from the beginning. Those callbacks to the OT is the same thing Nick is doing. When Nick showed Mike's "OT face" isn't that the same thing?

easter eggs and references are different than pointed subtext and remarks. you obviously dont know the differences, especially considering all the "easter eggs" you mentioned that AREN'T, in the "Easter Eggs" thread. having mikey's ot face is a reference to the old toon. having raph constantly "bap" mikey for saying cowabunga is the 4kids producers trying to make an awkward and annoying point.

Where the hell do you even get the idea that the 4kids series kept bringing up the original toon? In the first season all we got is a few "No Cowabunga" jokes and that's it. We later see April dress up as a news reporter in Season 2.

he never said they kept bringing it up, he said it kept trying to remind us its wasn't the ot...again with those awkward, "subtle" jabs at the ot.



Seems to me many adults enjoyed watching the show judging by the review threads on Toonzone, TV.com, and other animation sites that don't have a TMNT bias.

dude..clear your mind, take a deep breath and READ...
FANS ARE GOING TO LIKE IT. PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT ON THE INTERNET POSTING ON INTERNET FORUMS ABOUT CARTOONS PROBABLY DID NOT. THATS THE POINT WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO GET ACROSS.

:teek:

[CyberCubed]

easter eggs and references are different than pointed subtext and remarks. you obviously dont know the differences, especially considering all the "easter eggs" you mentioned that AREN'T, in the "Easter Eggs" thread. having mikey's ot face is a reference to the old toon. having raph constantly "bap" mikey for saying cowabunga is the 4kids producers trying to make an awkward and annoying point.

I don't even know where you get this idea from. It happened once, or maybe twice over the entire run of the show as a JOKE for people who grew up with the OT. And you're claiming this preventing the 4kids series from establishing its own identity? Seriously, what in the world?

he never said they kept bringing it up, he said it kept trying to remind us its wasn't the ot...again with those awkward, "subtle" jabs at the ot.

None of them were jabs. April dressing up as a news reporter, Gen dressing up as Rocksteady were all nods to the past.

dude..clear your mind, take a deep breath and READ...
FANS ARE GOING TO LIKE IT. PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT ON THE INTERNET POSTING ON INTERNET FORUMS ABOUT CARTOONS PROBABLY DID NOT. THATS THE POINT WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO GET ACROSS.

:teek:

Well considering we have no way of asking random people on the street what they thought of a cartoon, we can only go by ratings reports and review threads about what people thought of it on the internet.

Also in case you don't know, most adults actually don't watch cartoons outside adult comedies like Simpsons/Family guy. When I was in College I was pretty much one of the few people who still watched cartoons while everyone else was wondering what I was still doing watching, "kids shows."

[zodiac brave]

I don't even know where you get this idea from. It happened once, or maybe twice over the entire run of the show as a JOKE for people who grew up with the OT. And you're claiming this preventing the 4kids series from establishing its own identity? Seriously, what in the world?



None of them were jabs. April dressing up as a news reporter, Gen dressing up as Rocksteady were all nods to the past.


ok.


Well considering we have no way of asking random people on the street what they thought of a cartoon, we can only go by ratings reports and review threads about what people thought of it on the internet.

right.

Also in case you don't know, most adults actually don't watch cartoons outside adult comedies like Simpsons/Family guy. When I was in College I was pretty much one of the few people who still watched cartoons while everyone else was wondering what I was still doing watching, "kids shows."

my bad. im sorry my knowledge of EVERYONE OTHER THAN MYSELF is lacking. im glad you're here to tell me the absolute truth about everyone who isn't me.

:tlol: :trolleye:

[Refractive Reflections]

dude..clear your mind, take a deep breath and READ...
FANS ARE GOING TO LIKE IT. PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT ON THE INTERNET POSTING ON INTERNET FORUMS ABOUT CARTOONS PROBABLY DID NOT. THATS THE POINT WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO GET ACROSS.

:teek:

Exactly, Zodiac Brave..and thank you. I mean honestly not everyone who doesn't like it is gonna waste their time on those internet forums just to post "this sucks" and give a bad rating on a website. So maybe those websites aren't necessarily THE most accurate assessment of the general public. LOL


Where the hell do you even get the idea that the 4kids series kept bringing up the original toon?

LOL, wow must have definitely pushed a button there for that reaction.
Some people take things WAY too seriously on this forum. ...WAY too seriously...
**cautiously tip-toes in a backwards direction out of the thread***

[CyberCubed]

LOL, wow must have definitely pushed a button there for that reaction.
Some people take things WAY too seriously on this forum. ...WAY too seriously...
**cautiously tip-toes in a backwards direction out of the thread***

I'm not taking things too seriously, I just don't understand where the logic behind, "it doesn't have its own identity" comes from. That doesn't even make any sense to me, because the mere fact that it exists and did different things than the previous cartoon made it its own identity.

[Mondo_Gecko]

I think what JLS, Zodiac and Yagami are trying to say, and what you're not understanding, is there is a difference between popularity and being a fan.

I'll try to give an example, Two and a Half Men and Justin Beiber are popular. Do I like them? No, but there is no denying their popularity and being in the public sphere. When I was a child I enjoyed cartoons such as Bucky O'Hare, Toxic Crusaders, Mighty Max and Eerie Indiana. These were not popular shows, meaning that everyone knew them, they had a niche fan base. It doesn't take away my rabid love and fandom, but they certainly would never be called popular or even critically acclaimed.

A more recent example is a show called Awake. Awake premiered at the beginning of the year, to critical acclaim, most critics called it "the best pilot of the season" Was Awake popular? No, it was swiftly canceled. That is an example of a show, that most likely ten years later will still be highly regarded such as the DCAU is other critics.

There is a huge difference between actual critical acclaim and a fan base and love such as yours for the 2K3 cartoon. Just like there is for popularity and liking or regarding something. Does that help?

[ZariusTwo]

Honestly the fact that it was on Nick wasn't necessarily a good thing for me. The last toon I watched on Nick was Rocket Power and since then not much from them has peaked my interest

You liked something as terrible as Rocket Power and you thought something like Airbender or Anubis couldnt peak your interest?

Ooook

[CyberCubed]

There is a huge difference between actual critical acclaim and a fan base and love such as yours for the 2K3 cartoon. Just like there is for popularity and liking or regarding something. Does that help?

So then you can say this for anything then. The Nick cartoon isn't popular with everyone, a lot of "casuals" dropped off after the first 3 episodes which are why ratings have declined a lot since September.

Some people only checked out the beginning of the show to see what it was like.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

It's everything a lot of us hoped the 2003 show to be. It combines the humor of the 1987 show with the dark Mirage feeling.

Havint Splinter to be Hamato Yoshi is probably what's most popular. For years, I've seen fanworks on the Internet where the creator creates his/her own TMNT universe, and many of them use this concept, even if the tone is more Mirage-dark.

[TMNT-Leonardo]

So then you can say this for anything then. The Nick cartoon isn't popular with everyone, a lot of "casuals" dropped off after the first 3 episodes which are why ratings have declined a lot since September.

Some people only checked out the beginning of the show to see what it was like.

What's your point exactly? That just because the 2K3 series isn't popular with everyone, it means that it's still extremely popular and critically acclaimed? It's not. The 2K3 was moderately succesful at best. It's nowhere near the critical acclaim you seem to beleive it is.

The changing timeslots probably didn't help the factor either. And yes IT DID change timeslots. It was done to the point where I'm sure most kids (and adults) would have decided not to bother trying to find it.

[Avatar Yuffie]

And to be fair, 2K3 lasted seven seasons. That's pretty good, IMHO. It just didn't bleed to the consciousness of the public. I mean, I'd read the reviews of the 2K7 CGI TMNT film and the complaints from the writers who on earth Karai was, even when she was a major character by that time in the tv series.

[TMNT-Leonardo]

And to be fair, 2K3 lasted seven seasons. That's pretty good, IMHO. It just didn't bleed to the consciousness of the public.

Oh yeah, there's no denying it had a good run. It's just didn't stick out in the public's mind.

[CyberCubed]

What's your point exactly? That just because the 2K3 series isn't popular with everyone, it means that it's still extremely popular and critically acclaimed? It's not. The 2K3 was moderately succesful at best. It's nowhere near the critical acclaim you seem to beleive it is.

The changing timeslots probably didn't help the factor either. And yes IT DID change timeslots. It was done to the point where I'm sure most kids (and adults) would have decided not to bother trying to find it.

I don't know where you live, but on the East Coast it aired at 10am every Saturday for nearly 8 years.

[Coola Yagami]

Yeah, not only did noone know who Karai was in the 07 movie, despite her being a major character in the series at the time... most people review Turtles Forever only knowing about the OT cast and not knowing nearly anything about the 2K3 cast. I wouldn't be surprised if people still thought 'wait... there was a new turtles cartoon in 2003? what?'.

I honestly don't know why, hell, I was a big fan at the time and followed every episode. But I guess that's how it was for everyone else.

[TMNT-Leonardo]

I don't know where you live,

It takes 5 seconds to figure that out by looking under a persons avatar for the word "Location" if they chose to put it.

but on the East Coast it aired at 10am every Saturday for nearly 8 years.

really? hahaha! you're honestly so arrogant in your opinions that you're going to conclude that i just didn't know when it was on. dude, the show was syndicated. it aired at different times in different parts of the country. in south texas it DIDNT air for 7 years at the same time on the same channel.

The airing was different depending on the country, and in some places it changed a lot. It might have aired at 10 where YOU were, but where I was it shifted from about 10-11, depening on which season it was at. The time slot was not always consistant. That much is true. You can't keep use "where you were at" as an example that it aired like that for everyone because there's enough people here who can say themselves it aired at a different time where they live.

Yeah, not only did noone know who Karai was in the 07 movie, despite her being a major character in the series at the time... most people review Turtles Forever only knowing about the OT cast and not knowing nearly anything about the 2K3 cast. I wouldn't be surprised if people still thought 'wait... there was a new turtles cartoon in 2003? what?'.

LOL Seriosuly, this happens a lot when I bring up ninja turtles. My friends had no idea there was a cartoon in 2003, despite all the merchaindise and toys that was almost everywhere at that point.

[Coola Yagami]

Exactly, I don't know why, but it just didn't 'spread like wildfire' like this new one did. I'm still surprised some stores I hit Black Friday were completely cleaned out of TMNT stuff.

[Jester]

I'd almost say the reason that this series is more known is the muscle that Nick is putting behind it. 4Kids lacked the advertising money to pimp out the Turtles like Nick has and is. I'm not even sure how I found out about the 4Kids series before it aired (I know I did, because I told my college friends at the time)...I think it may have been this forum. (Thought I'm unsure, I don't remember lurking before I joined in 2004...:P)

[CyberCubed]

LOL Seriosuly, this happens a lot when I bring up ninja turtles. My friends had no idea there was a cartoon in 2003, despite all the merchaindise and toys that was almost everywhere at that point.

Do your friends even watch cartoons anymore? If not, its probably why they didn't know about the 4kids cartoon. As I said, MOST TEENS AND ADULTS do not actually watch cartoons outside of the Fox comedies.

Here's another thing, why is it all the major news and animation websites reporting on the Nick show aren't acting like this is the first revival of the property since the 90's? If they didn't think the 4kids show was made, they probably would be reporting things like, "The Turtles are finally back after 15 years with a second cartoon!" and things like that.

Yet....you don't see that. Everyone is aware of the second cartoon that aired from 2003-2010. Nobody thinks the Nick show is the first revival of the property.

Oh, and movie reviewers not knowing who Karai is, is common sense. Movie reviewers don't know ANYTHING about the TMNT franchise. If the new movie had Rat King and Leatherhead in it they wouldn't know who the hell they were either.

[Jester]

Here's another thing, why is it all the major news and animation websites reporting on the Nick show aren't acting like this is the first revival of the property since the 90's? If they didn't think the 4kids show was made, they probably would be reporting things like, "The Turtles are finally back after 15 years with a second cartoon!" and things like that.

Yet....you don't see that. Everyone is aware of the second cartoon that aired from 2003-2010. Nobody thinks the Nick show is the first revival of the property.
It would be poor research to disinclude the 4Kids series when writing articles mentioning prior TMNT series. Just because an article mentions the 4Kids series doesn't mean EVERYONE knows about it. You'd look like a poor journalist to not mention it. That doesn't make it, as you're so prone to say, common knowledge.

[CyberCubed]

It would be poor research to disinclude the 4Kids series when writing articles mentioning prior TMNT series. Just because an article mentions the 4Kids series doesn't mean EVERYONE knows about it. You'd look like a poor journalist to not mention it. That doesn't make it, as you're so prone to say, common knowledge.

Whatever the case, everyone is aware the show exists. I think the main problem now is no proper DVD releases of the show exist so people can't properly sit down with it.

[Jester]

Whatever the case, everyone is aware the show exists. I think the main problem now is no proper DVD releases of the show exist so people can't properly sit down with it.
EVERYONE is far to broad a term. I'm sure if you looked, you could find plenty of people who weren't aware of the 4Kids series. Heck, more people probably know about Next Mutation. (I mean, if we're speaking with no real facts, why not go big. :D)

[TMNT-Leonardo]

Do your friends even watch cartoons anymore? If not, its probably why they didn't know about the 4kids cartoon. As I said, MOST TEENS AND ADULTS do not actually watch cartoons outside of the Fox comedies.

Yeah, and my friends are the type that still watch cartoons. One of them even has a kid who didn't know what Ninja Turtles were. So really, everyone knowing about the 2k3 series is an overstatement. Hell, I've read youtube comments with people saying "there was a new cartoon?". And like I said, THE MERCHAINDISE FOR THE SERIES WAS EVERYWHERE ARE THAT POINT AND THEY STILL DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT.

It wouldn't really matter if they watched cartoons or not, or if they liked the original show. If it was popular, they would know about it. Hell, there are shows that are popular which I don't even wanna watch, yet I still know that they exisist. The 2K3 series doesn't have that kind of representation.

[CyberCubed]

They must have been living under a rock then. The 4kids series ALSO aired on Cartoon Network in reruns for at least 2-3 years. It was airing on more than one channel regularly.

Let alone the DVD releases, the huge toyline, and the fact that a new games came out yearly for PS2/Gamecube/Xbox and Gameboy Advance for about 4 years in a row.

[TMNT-Leonardo]

They must have been living under a rock then

Yes, please insult people you don't know, because you think it makes your argument stronger.

The 4kids series ALSO aired on Cartoon Network in reruns for at least 2-3 years. It was airing on more than one channel regularly.

Let alone the DVD releases, the huge toyline, and the fact that a new games came out yearly for PS2/Gamecube/Xbox and Gameboy Advance for about 4 years in a row.

So what? Most kids shows have DVD releases, toylines and games. That doesn't mean it's a huge popular hit, it's milking it out as much as possible. It still didn't really stick in peoples mind as much as you seem to think it did, and to the point, NOT as well known. If you think it's anywhere near the icon of of say the original series, you're severly mistaken.

[Jester]

Let alone the huge toyline...
Sorry, this made me laugh.

[The Stryker]

I wish I was one of those people that has never heard of the 2k3 show.

[TMNT-Leonardo]

Sorry, this made me laugh.

I don't even remember half the toys they put out for the 2K3 series. I just remember there was I point where I thought, "Wow, they're doing the same thing they did with the original toyline, stuff that never happened in the show". lol

[Cure]

I wish I was one of those people that has never heard of the 2k3 show.

BOOM, you got them, man.

[CyberCubed]

Y
So what? Most kids shows have DVD releases, toylines and games. That doesn't mean it's a huge popular hit, it's milking it out as much as possible. It still didn't really stick in peoples mind as much as you seem to think it did, and to the point, NOT as well known. If you think it's anywhere near the icon of of say the original series, you're severly mistaken.

The point is that its EXPOSURE. When something is more than just a TV show, and it has toys, videogames, etc. its going to make people more aware of it.

People on the videogame websites back in 2003-2005 always saw the reviews for the new Turtle games (they got poor reviews generally), and were aware the show existed.

And the toyline was always plentiful in stores. Over the entire span the 4kids show was airing there were always huge racks of TMNT figures in Toys R Us, Target, Walmart, etc. You couldn't miss them.

[Vivi]

I for one love that the 2k3 show existed and am glad to have heard of it. Seriously, what is it with thinking one show devalues the other? All shows add to the pot, it's a good thing.

As far as this incarnation goes, the popularity is probably a combination of writing, wonderful voice talent, 3d animation, and a HUGE advertising campaign. As well as timing. This style of animation is very popular at the moment.

But it will not out do Adventure Time. That show is a phenomenon.

[TMNT-Leonardo]

The point is that its EXPOSURE. When something is more than just a TV show, and it has toys, videogames, etc. its going to make people more aware of it.

Did you miss the point where I said, the MERCHAINDISE WAS EVERYWHERE when I asked my friends about it, and they still didn't know of it's exsistance. If my friends were "living under a rock" I'd have to guess everyone else who didn't know about it (even now) despite the exposure were under the same circumstance?

The merchaindise is suppose to give it expourse, but doesn't mean it always works. The series is still not common knowledge. I enjoyed it for what it was, but I'm not gonna lie and say it was hugely succesful because it wasn't.

[CyberCubed]

Did you miss the point where I said, the MERCHAINDISE WAS EVERYWHERE when I asked my friends about it, and they still didn't know of it's exsistance. If my friends were "living under a rock" I'd have to guess everyone else who didn't know about it (even now) despite the exposure were under the same circumstance?

If they don't know its existence its probably because they aren't anything more than casual fans. Do they even rewatch the OT through the DVDs?

The merchaindise is suppose to give it expourse, but doesn't mean it always works. The series is still not common knowledge. I enjoyed it for what it was, but I'm not gonna lie and say it was hugely succesful because it wasn't.

Here's a revelation, not every show is going to become a hugely popular fad. VERY FEW shows actually hit mainstream fad status. A show doesn't have to be tremendously popular to be a success.

Also keep in mind how long the 4kids series was on the air and how many episodes were produced. The show could have very well been a failed 80's reboot and ended after one season. Hell it could have ended after 3 seasons and would have been an average-length show.

Instead it lasts 7 seasons, makes 157 episodes, AND has a full-length TV movie...along with all the assorted merchandize. Can you even think of many other American cartoons that made 157 episodes outside of comedies?

[NinjaMan]

I'll take quality over quantity. 03 toon was good but for me, I hated the ninja tribunal arc, FF and didn't care for BTTS.

[CyberCubed]

I'll take quality over quantity. 03 toon was good but for me, I hated the ninja tribunal arc, FF and didn't care for BTTS.

LOL, even without the last few seasons you still get over 100 episodes.

[NinjaMan]

LOL, even without the last few seasons you still get over 100 episodes.

And there were still duds in those episodes as well. 100 episodes means squat. It's just a number.

[CyberCubed]

And there were still duds in those episodes as well. 100 episodes means squat. It's just a number.

The same could be said for the original series, when those mad scientist episodes started in Season 4, let alone the Euro vacation eps that most people don't care for.

[The Stryker]

Guy. It's Cybercubed. His entire life revolves around how many episodes a cartoon has.

Wow! 100 episodes! This show is awesome! 70 of them are complete trash? Whatever! 100 episodes!

[CyberCubed]

Guy. It's Cybercubed. His entire life revolves around how many episodes a cartoon has.

Wow! 100 episodes! This show is awesome! 70 of them are complete trash? Whatever! 100 episodes!

Except that isn't the case.

[The Stryker]

Oh, I'd definitely argue that.

Buuuutttt that's just me.

[CyberCubed]

I rewatched the entire 2k3 series earlier this year around May or June I believe, simply because I wanted to refresh my memory of the series before the Nick cartoon started. Out of the entire 157 episode run of the show I only disliked around 20 episodes at the most.

The humor of the show was generally either bad or done poorly, and that was one of the 4kids series biggest flaws.

[VaughnMichael]

So anyway the topic of this thread is what do you think this new show has that others haven't had.
For me I'd say it's the reurn of the Mutants, humour, and lots of heart.
This show so far has been a very good balance of everything.

[zodiac brave]

I rewatched the entire 2k3 series earlier this year around May or June I believe, simply because I wanted to refresh my memory of the series before the Nick cartoon started. Out of the entire 157 episode run of the show I only disliked around 20 episodes at the most.


good for you. you, however, are not me...or anyone else. YOU DO NOT REPRESENT THE FANS AS A WHOLE, THEREFORE JUST BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IT, DOES NOT MEAN ITS TRUE.

So anyway the topic of this thread is what do you think this new show has that others haven't had.
For me I'd say it's the reurn of the Mutants, humour, and lots of heart.
This show so far has been a very good balance of everything.

yeah, man! tons of heart! i marathoned the 10 eps last night and it gave me an almost Disney feel of heart, lol. the way they relate to each other is kinda sweet. the OT felt like it was kinda just four comedians and 2k3 sometimes feels like they're family, but a lot of times its just them calling each other bro and nothing beyond that. the writers seem to have sweetness and true heart in mind just as much as action and humor.

[BubblyShell22]

Have to agree about the heart and the overall tone. Also the fact that the Turtles are just starting out as ninjas with a leader who doesn't really know how to be a true leader yet. They're young and are still learning the ways of the world. I like that a lot. I also like how Raph and Leo seem more like friends and don't have that animosity they had in the 4Kids show. They just have a friendly rivalry and nothing more than that.

[CyberCubed]

good for you. you, however, are not me...or anyone else. YOU DO NOT REPRESENT THE FANS AS A WHOLE, THEREFORE JUST BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IT, DOES NOT MEAN ITS TRUE.



yeah, man! tons of heart! i marathoned the 10 eps last night and it gave me an almost Disney feel of heart, lol. the way they relate to each other is kinda sweet. the OT felt like it was kinda just four comedians and 2k3 sometimes feels like they're family, but a lot of times its just them calling each other bro and nothing beyond that. the writers seem to have sweetness and true heart in mind just as much as action and humor.

Except there is a general consensus in the fandom. Everyone knows what aspects of the franchise are well received and which weren't.

There's a reason Next mutation is viewed in a negative manner but the other series are not.

[FearlessLeader]

I don't understand why so many things in this fandom have to turn into pissing matches between the series. This used to happen all the time between the 2003 and the OT.

Each have good points and bad points and in my opinion each series has laid down ground work to pave the way for the next series and they all owe something to the others.

I like them all. :tgrin:

[TMNT-Leonardo]

I don't understand why so many things in this fandom have to turn into pissing matches between the series. This used to happen all the time between the 2003 and the OT.

It's not about which series is better. It's more about the fact that the guy seems to keep arguging the 2003 is extremely well regarded by the public and well known by many people a like when in it's not. Definately don't know about it being consdered " one of the best cartoons of 2000s" either. There's no record of that regard at all.

Not that I hate the 03 series. I enjoyed, but I wouldn't exaggerate the impat more than it actually was.

[liugeaux]

I think the word you're looking for is Zeitgeist - "The defining spirit or mood of a particular period of history as shown by the ideas and beliefs of the time."

It is universally accepted that the OT helped shape the zeitgeist of early 90's children's pop culture. Everyone from Grandmothers, to preachers, to truck drivers, to gourmet chefs knew that the TMNT was a phenomenon. Another good word for it would be ubiquitous. Not many shows ever reach this level of recognition.

The 2k3 show, as good as it was, was destined to be a smaller success than the original. Not enough time had passed between the two iterations and it had alot more competition. The DVDs and games were ways to spread the brand and make money but they weren't indicators of worldwide acknowledgment and acclaim. The only children's cartoon show in the 2000s that I could see as being as important to American pop culture as the OT turtles were was Sponge-bob. THAT was and is a ubiquitous series.

I love the 2k3 show and its the reason I got so deep into following the turtles again 10 years ago, but to say EVERYONE knows about it, simply shows how limited a scope you are working with. Anecdotal, "everyone I associate with knows about it, so that means everyone knows about it" mindsets create false realities and allow people/fan-boys to live in their own little fantasy land. I'm sure it's fun there...always being right.

The nick show has a LONG way to go before it passes either of the two previous cartoons, but its well on its way to being the most significant TMNT property since the OT.

[zodiac brave]

Except there is a general consensus in the fandom. Everyone knows what aspects of the franchise are well received and which weren't.

There's a reason Next mutation is viewed in a negative manner but the other series are not.

there's a general concensus in the fandom that there were only about 20 or so episodes cybercubed disliked??

THIS is what I mean.

:trolleye: