Who's older? Donatello or Raphael?

[Refractive Reflections]

(I want to apologize beforehand if this thread was already posted, but I tried searching for it and couldn't find a specific thread for it.)

I know there have been numerous threads about the age of the Turtles in general, but I was more curious about the birth order of the Turtles. We all know that Leonardo is the oldest and that Michelangelo is the youngest, or at that very least if some versions don't mention that, it seems to imply that.

Therefore it leaves Donatello and Raphael as the middle children, but between them...who's older? Was it ever resolved official by Eastman and Laird? What do you (as a fan) think yourself?

In my small opinion, I get the impression that Donatello was 2nd and Raphael was 3rd because some of Raphael's anger issues may reside in that he is constantly living under the shadow of his more older "accomplished" brothers. With Leonardo excelling in ninjutsu/leadership/athleticism and Donatello in science/academics, it makes it more difficult for Raphael to uniquely shine in his own right with his talents and abilities; thus making Raphael feel like he's being compared to them despite Splinter and the other Turtles not doing so. In fact, it seems like most versions of TMNT seem to focus (not always, but mostly) on Raphael's emotions rather than any unique combating skills (besides his strength and hot-temper) that make pivotal contributions to the Turtles' missions.

[Icebot]

I think I remember a Double Dare episode where Marc Summers was asking the question out of all 4 turtles, which one of them is the oldest? And then one of the players answered Donatello and the answer was correct.

[pannoni1]

I think I remember a Double Dare episode where Marc Summers was asking the question out of all 4 turtles, which one of them is the oldest? And then one of the players answered Donatello and the answer was correct.

About the same, as both the 1988 Playmates figures and 1989 Arcade game profile lists them as 15. And that Double Dare question must have been made up since the same two sources list Leonardo as 16. They seem to be fraternal twins in a way(one fella has voiced both of 'em), since both have a witty quality (geeky vs. daring).

[BubblyShell22]

I honestly don't know. I'd like to think that maybe Raph is second oldest in some incarnations because of how close he is with Leo and how he feels that rivalry with him. But I think for the Nick incarnation, Don is the second oldest and Raph may be third.

[Slade]

I've always figured Raph was second oldest. That way one of the reasons for his rivalry with Leo is because he is just right under him. I remember in the TMNT Tournament Fighters game, everyone had a bio. It listed Leo as 16 or 17 and the other three as 15 or 16. I don't mind that all to much. Since Leo is always said to be oldest.

[Roseangelo]

According to Kevin Eastman Donatello is 2nd oldest.

[Xav]

When did Kevin say that?

[TurtleTitan97]

But I think for the Nick incarnation, Don is the second oldest and Raph may be third.

The motion comics on Nick.com said that Raph was the second oldest.

[Roseangelo]

When did Kevin say that?

At a Con about 10 years ago.

[alliance]

For me personally i wish it was

Leo
Don
Ralph
Mike

To me that makes more sense

[Gokhan]

Easiest answer is no age has ever been given

[Jester]

For me personally i wish it was

Leo
Don
Ralph
Mike

To me that makes more sense
The Giovanni brothers? Yeah, that's right. Ralph is the 2nd youngest.

[Eiko]

I always thought it was Raphael then Donatello.

[Bossa Nova]

When I first was introduced to the Turtles, even when I was little, it never occurred to me that Don might be older than Raph, and even now I still can't imagine them that way. Raph just makes sense in my mind as being second oldest, not only because of his rivalry with Leo as not wanting to be seen as 'second best', but also for his intense protectiveness he has over Mikey and Don, watching out especially for his younger bros. Even if they're officially stated somewhere as being the other way around, in my mind Raph will always be older than Don.

[zkarlette]

I always felt Raphael was older than Don, maybe because Don hangs out more with Mike or something.

[Candy Kappa]

Who's older then who isn't really a huge factor for me


Ralph

The 5th turtle no one likes to talk about :lol:

[Jelly Bean]

I always felt Raphael was older than Don, maybe because Don hangs out more with Mike or something.

that just crap from the 4kids series. In the 80's toon I always thought Don was older than Raph. It kind of sucks that every thinks it is the other way around.

[Xav]

I know there have been numerous threads about the age of the Turtles in general, but I was more curious about the birth order of the Turtles. We all know that Leonardo is the oldest and that Michelangelo is the youngest, or at that very least if some versions don't mention that, it seems to imply that.The old action figures have Mike as the second oldest.

[Storm Eagle]

Easiest answer is no age has ever been given

What do you mean? There have been sources that mention their ages. They've even been mentioned in this thread, and they all somehow put Leonardo first.

[DonatelloNinja82]

I think of Raph as second oldest.

[Xav]

What do you mean? There have been sources that mention their ages. They've even been mentioned in this thread, and they all somehow put Leonardo first.Actually the RPG books list Leonardo the same age as everyone else.

[Donatello19]

The only thing I know about their ages is that Mikey is the youngest (IMO)

[Jester]

Actually the RPG books list Leonardo the same age as everyone else.
Yep, they're all 15. Splinter's listed as...are you sitting down?...25. Yep, far to old to take on Saki himself. :P

EDIT: April's 27, Casey's 22, Shredder's 34 and Baxter is 36, according to the RPG guide.

[Candy Kappa]

Odd age for Splinter, since Saki is 7 when Nagi was murdered

[Xav]

Splinter's listed as...are you sitting down?...25. Yep, far to old to take on Saki himself. :PYou got to remember that's in rat years.

[FoxZerro]

The antagonistic nature of Raphael always made me think he was the second oldest.

Using the argument from JLS about feeling inferior because of his older brother's accomplishments and accolades also fits in better if its only Leonardo ahead of him. I don't think that he would look at Donnie's accomplishments and question his worth to the team, it just doesn't feel like Raph. However living under the shadow of his perfect brother would make sense, its like when you are the younger sibling and have the same teachers as your older sibling, they assume that you will be just like them.

Raphael as the second oldest also explains why he would so badly believe he would be a better leader. I just don't see the third child having that kind of ambition, it just feels better and more real coming from the second banana. Especially you consider the "I understand now why he's the better son" line from TMNT

Also the protective nature he displays towards Donatello and especially Mikey (His best bud) makes it feel like he is older. Plus always living in the shadow of Leonardo would make him more sympathetic to the plight of Michelangelo living in the shadow of Don (both intelligent but one academically and one artistically) and give him cause to take his younger brother under his wing to protect him.

Still I have always placed Don and Raph at the same level where if Leo were 16 and Mike were 14 they are both 15. Especially when they appear to be twins in the IDW series. In that argument even if one is older than the other the difference is negligible.

[Slade]

The antagonistic nature of Raphael always made me think he was the second oldest.

Using the argument from JLS about feeling inferior because of his older brother's accomplishments and accolades also fits in better if its only Leonardo ahead of him. I don't think that he would look at Donnie's accomplishments and question his worth to the team, it just doesn't feel like Raph. However living under the shadow of his perfect brother would make sense, its like when you are the younger sibling and have the same teachers as your older sibling, they assume that you will be just like them.

Raphael as the second oldest also explains why he would so badly believe he would be a better leader. I just don't see the third child having that kind of ambition, it just feels better and more real coming from the second banana. Especially you consider the "I understand now why he's the better son" line from TMNT

Also the protective nature he displays towards Donatello and especially Mikey (His best bud) makes it feel like he is older. Plus always living in the shadow of Leonardo would make him more sympathetic to the plight of Michelangelo living in the shadow of Don (both intelligent but one academically and one artistically) and give him cause to take his younger brother under his wing to protect him.

Still I have always placed Don and Raph at the same level where if Leo were 16 and Mike were 14 they are both 15. Especially when they appear to be twins in the IDW series. In that argument even if one is older than the other the difference is negligible.


Completely agree.

[BubblyShell22]

I also agree with FZ's assessment here. It makes sense in a way for Raph to be second oldest when you put it like that.

[Warhorse]

The antagonistic nature of Raphael always made me think he was the second oldest.

Using the argument from JLS about feeling inferior because of his older brother's accomplishments and accolades also fits in better if its only Leonardo ahead of him. I don't think that he would look at Donnie's accomplishments and question his worth to the team, it just doesn't feel like Raph. However living under the shadow of his perfect brother would make sense, its like when you are the younger sibling and have the same teachers as your older sibling, they assume that you will be just like them.

Raphael as the second oldest also explains why he would so badly believe he would be a better leader. I just don't see the third child having that kind of ambition, it just feels better and more real coming from the second banana. Especially you consider the "I understand now why he's the better son" line from TMNT

Also the protective nature he displays towards Donatello and especially Mikey (His best bud) makes it feel like he is older. Plus always living in the shadow of Leonardo would make him more sympathetic to the plight of Michelangelo living in the shadow of Don (both intelligent but one academically and one artistically) and give him cause to take his younger brother under his wing to protect him.

Still I have always placed Don and Raph at the same level where if Leo were 16 and Mike were 14 they are both 15. Especially when they appear to be twins in the IDW series. In that argument even if one is older than the other the difference is negligible.

Maybe. But, just because someone is older in the sibling rank, does not mean they are automatically going to assume that protective order. I grew up next to a family where there were 3 boys, 3 girls.
Boys:
18
16
14
Girls:
12
10
8.

The 14 year old was the most responsible of the group, not the 16 or the 18 year old. The elders were complete jerks, and took after their abusive father sadly. When the 14 year old turned 18, he tried to get his younger sisters away from his parents, but he was killed by his father in a drunken rage. After his death, it was the 8 year old (she was 12 at the time) became the responsible one, and got her older sisters the hell away from her family to save them. So, sometimes, age doesn't neccesarily mean much in the grand scheme of things. Raphael could very well be younger than Donnie, but he is more emotional than Donnie will ever be, so he takes on that duty that it is up to him to protect his brothers when Leo and Splinter are not around.

But, I can totally see Raph being the second oldest with the whole rivarly thing with Leonardo.

[Zog]

Thread Resurrection....

I always saw it as Leo, Raph, Don, Mikey.

As others have stated I think Raph's attitude stems from being the "second best" or next in line turtle. Still though I see them all hatching around the same time so actual age is negligible but if we had to choose in order this is how I have and most likely will always see it.

[jenna]

They both seem to have "middle child" syndrome, but to me Raphael feels emotionally young. I have always understood Don to occupy the second-in-command role (by virtue of a combination of his left-brained, sensible logic and by rank as the second oldest).

But, and I suppose not unexpectedly given the age of the property and the multitudes of fingers in the TMNT pie, official sources differ. So I guess there will never be a definitive answer.

But I will always think of Donnie as older than Raphael - if only a hatchling's minute.

[Mellie]

I always pictured Don as second oldest.

Leo
Don
Raph
Mikey

makes most sense to me.

[Coola Yagami]

Yep, they're all 15. Splinter's listed as...are you sitting down?...25. Yep, far to old to take on Saki himself. :P



When you think about it... it could be true. I mean, Splinter could have been a 10 year old rat.... then add the 15 years as a mutant training the Turtles.... 25 years sounds about right.

[BabyTurtles]

I'd say Raph because of his complex with Leo

and because he seems more dominant over Don (at least in the 2012 version)

[Warhorse]

Wouldn't it be funny if Raph and Donny were twins in the same egg and burst out of it at the same time? My mom thought that way back when we watched the 1990 movie, cause she thought Raph and Donnie looked like twins while Leo and Mikey were obviously different in their features.

[Hannurdock]

When you think about it... it could be true. I mean, Splinter could have been a 10 year old rat.... then add the 15 years as a mutant training the Turtles.... 25 years sounds about right.

Rats don't live that long. One of the main issues I faced as a rat owner was limited lifespan. Pet rats bred by unreliable sources and inherant disease means only a short life expectancy.

[Shark_Blade]

2k12: Raph is older than Donnie. It won't make sense for a younger sibling to bully the elder. I would give em a good smacking.

OT:
Leo
Raph
Mike
Don

[Candy Kappa]

When you think about it... it could be true. I mean, Splinter could have been a 10 year old rat.... then add the 15 years as a mutant training the Turtles.... 25 years sounds about right.

Not when Yoshi killed Nagi when Saki was 7 years old, when Saki is listed as 34.

34-25=9

Which means Splinter was -2 years when Nagi was killed?

[Technogeek29]

I always saw it as Don being the 2nd oldest he shows the quirks most 2nd born children have. The main one being not following in their parents foot steps as the eldest normally does. Raph on the other hand strikes me as the middle child or youngest because of how imature he acts at times. And the youngest of the family tend to fight which each other or click the most.

Leo
Don
Raph
Mike

(Imo)

[MsMarvelDuckie]

They both seem to have "middle child" syndrome, but to me Raphael feels emotionally young. I have always understood Don to occupy the second-in-command role (by virtue of a combination of his left-brained, sensible logic and by rank as the second oldest).

But, and I suppose not unexpectedly given the age of the property and the multitudes of fingers in the TMNT pie, official sources differ. So I guess there will never be a definitive answer.

But I will always think of Donnie as older than Raphael - if only a hatchling's minute.


The funny thing is, in the TMNT comic strip, Donnie is stated as having hatched LAST! The others were already "trying to escape" their terrarium when he hatched just in time to be bought along with the others.

But my own thoughts echo most here- that Raph suffers from the type of emotional issues of a "second child", always being measured against the "perfect" older sibling. Donnie doesn't have that problem, since he not only has his own area of expertise, but is not scrutinized as heavily- probably because he is lower in the age-ranking. (And if that comic strip is to be believed, even Mikey is older than Donnie, so it explains Mikey as well- he's the "middle-child" AND the "baby" of the family!!)


When you think about it... it could be true. I mean, Splinter could have been a 10 year old rat.... then add the 15 years as a mutant training the Turtles.... 25 years sounds about right.


If that was the case, that's one really OLD rat- even when Nagi was killed. no wonder he has to walk with a stick!


Rats don't live that long. One of the main issues I faced as a rat owner was limited lifespan. Pet rats bred by unreliable sources and inherant disease means only a short life expectancy.


Agreed. Rats typically live about 5-6 years, MAYBE 7 if they're really healthy. Most rodents have a short life-span, which is one reason they breed so quickly- their reproductive life is relatively short compared to other animals.

[lindz247]

For me personally i wish it was

Leo
Don
Ralph
Mike

To me that makes more sense
Agree 100%

[TigerClaw]

I would have to go with Raphael, Hes the only one who has matured, And you see that in all incarnations of TMNT.

[Chabrendeki]

I'm for Don as second oldest.

[Linkage]

I honestly don't know. I'd like to think that maybe Raph is second oldest in some incarnations because of how close he is with Leo and how he feels that rivalry with him. But I think for the Nick incarnation, Don is the second oldest and Raph may be third.

This is the best post in the thread.

[Tartaruhga Muhtante]

Sorry but...it's make some difference? Leonardo is the Oldest brother and the others have the same age, I think . Level of Maturity is relative.

[neatoman]

Well Raph is obviously the one struggling with hormones of the two, so I'll say Don is older.

[Shark_Blade]

How can a younger brother bully his elder brother? Illogical.

So Raph is older than Donnie imo.

[IndigoErth]

How can a younger brother bully his elder brother? Illogical.
Maybe if there were years between, but assuming this is a barely existing age difference I could see it happening purely based on one having a meeker personality.


Personally I'm in the Raph as second oldest camp, goes right along with his competitive nature with Leo.

As an oldest, that's in good part my sister and I right there when we were growing up. And while there's only the two of us, those I knew/know that had more kids in their family, more often the younger ones third+ down seemed as though they tended to take it more in stride.

[Luckyday]

Base on IDW. It seems that it's Leo, Don, Raph and Mikey.

http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/comicsalliance.com/files/2014/08/TMNT05.jpg

[Prowler]

I never cared much about their age. They're all the same age to me, pretty much. Maturity isn't always related to age.

[thebrownranger]

For me, I personally always liked the idea of the age differences between the TMNT to be unknown.

[Andrew NDB]

The truth is it's completely irrelevant. They all became exposed to the mutagen at the exact same moment, so their sentience began simultaneously.

I know different writers and creators like to look at them in terms of "the older brother" or "the younger one"... but that's pretty nonsensical.

[IndigoErth]

Agree it's pretty negligible, though I've always liked Leo's 'big brother' status. Even if he was simply only a little precocious by a short time ahead of the others hatching.

[Andrew NDB]

Agree it's pretty negligible, though I've always liked Leo's 'big brother' status. Even if he was simply only a little precocious by a short time ahead of the others hatching.

Wouldn't have made any difference who came out of the eggs first. Leonardo could be 20 weeks old and Raphael and the others could be a day old... sentience didn't begin until they were exposed to the mutagen so they all began -- mentally, as "people" -- on exactly the same page at exactly the same time.

[snake]

The motion comics on Nick.com said that Raph was the second oldest.

Would Leo be the oldest then?

[IndigoErth]

Wouldn't have made any difference who came out of the eggs first. Leonardo could be 20 weeks old and Raphael and the others could be a day old... sentience didn't begin until they were exposed to the mutagen so they all began -- mentally, as "people" -- on exactly the same page at exactly the same time.
Hey, if it's your way of looking at it, go for it.

Personally I can't find reason to see their existence pre-mutation as null and void, animals are still born and have an age, and birth is separate from 'mutation day.' Had they already been adult turtles and varied widely in age, I doubt they'd all regress back to infants of the same age when mutated. (Edit: Similarly I'm guessing that as a pet Spike/Slash might have been a bit older and seems it as a mutant.)

Not trying to argue that anyone's way of viewing it is wrong, any are potentially valid, but clearly the perspectives vary.

[Rooish]

The truth is it's completely irrelevant. They all became exposed to the mutagen at the exact same moment, so their sentience began simultaneously.

I know different writers and creators like to look at them in terms of "the older brother" or "the younger one"... but that's pretty nonsensical.

God I agree. I absolutely despise this trend, especially the Mikey is the baby crap.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

But the main reason for that "trend" is their maturity levels and how they treat each other. It's been hard-wired into the story to be that way. Fans wouldn't have so much cause for debate in the first place if it wasn't already a thing in the stories themselves.

[slashpieturtlemix]

My vote goes towards Raph being second oldest. He doesn't seem like the third child to me.