Is anyone else glad that there's little to no romance/shipping in the TMNT franchise?

[CyberCubed]

Other than the April/Casey pairing, is anyone else glad that there is little to no shipping or romance in the TMNT franchise?

I'm looking at alot of blog posts with younger fans or "anime fans" getting into the TMNT franchise for the first time and all they're talking about is shipping or pairings. Mainly due to Don's crush on April but even stuff like pairing Karai and April together despite them not even meeting in the show yet.

The only other full-on TMNT pairing we had was Raphael/Ninjara in the Archie series, which is a bit more obscure since comics are not read by casuals as much as the cartoons are. The other stuff (Leo/Radical, Leo/Lotus Blossom, Raph/Mona Lisa, Mike/Kala, Mike/The Regenta), is all often obscure or one-shot events at most.

I think of the other fandoms I'm in all they talk about is their ridiculous "shipping wars" where they actually fight with each other over which character should be paired with which character.

I am thankful the TMNT fandom doesn't have to endure such nonsense, although the Nick cartoon attracting the anime fandom probably isn't going to help in the coming years.

[Jester]

Dude, you're deluded if you think this fandom is free of Shippers...there just aren't many here.

[CyberCubed]

Dude, you're deluded if you think this fandom is free of Shippers...there just aren't many here.

I am well aware of those, "Turtlecest" shippers, but at least they stay out of the main fandom and hide in their little safecircles so we don't have to deal with them.

But other fandoms dealing with comic book or anime characters deal with this heavily. Good thing the TMNT franchise rarely focuses on romance.

[Powder]

Hop on Tumblr or Deviantart. You know nothing about the fandom outside of this site, apparently.

[Pterobat]

In this case, it's a good idea to separate the franchise from the fandom when we're talking about the issue.

In the franchise, there are other canon pairings besides April and Casey, though a lot of them don't go anywhere, like you said. I don't think that's a "good" thing. Romantic relationships are like any other kind of character interaction: they're a part of life and can be done good or they can be done bad. They are not a corrupting force and no more prone to being badly written than anything else.

In the fandom, shipping doesn't exist because of the creators or what they do. Shipping exists for series without canonical romance, shipping exists for pairings the creators have denied, and shipping exists for anything and anyone you could name.

I don't usually participate in this aspect of nerd culture (and not for TMNT), but that doesn't make me better than shippers. They're just expressing their fandom in the way they want to.

There are still pairings that will shock or confuse me, but it's a fact of fandom life that other people are going to be into that, so I gotta live with it.

I see no reason why the Turtles fandom is immune to this, or that it actually is...I suspect it's like Jester said, and none of the shipper-y types are on this forum. But any fandom is larger than its message boards.

As for why the shipping centers around the Nick series, it's probably because the Nick series is *new*. Even the 2003 series ended four years ago, which makes it ancient in media years. While fandoms do pore over long-dead series, never underestimate the draw of a series that is new, fresh, and airing-as-we-speak. That is why a lot of the fannish culture right now centers around the Nick series.

[Yorae]

I am well aware of those, "Turtlecest" shippers, but at least they stay out of the main fandom and hide in their little safecircles so we don't have to deal with them.

But other fandoms dealing with comic book or anime characters deal with this heavily. Good thing the TMNT franchise rarely focuses on romance.

The franchise/canon itself yes, the fandom though.. That's a different story.

Hop on Tumblr or Deviantart.

Don't forget fanfiction.net!

But as far as romance in the TMNT franchise itself, I'd say its about the right amount. We have April and Casey, and then Raph and Ninjara off the top of my head and a few others that escape me right now.

[Refractive Reflections]

I think the more appropriate topic should be "glad there's little to no Mary Sue-ish/teenybopper/superficial romance and shipping?"

I can't tell you how irksome it is to filter past all the annoying Turtlecest and Mary Sue Deviant Artwork and fanfiction stories out there. I had a mini-rant of sorts (LOL :lol:) about trying to find an easier way to find decent fanfics/fancomics that have more substance than just romance/sexuality. If anyone is interested in the topic: http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=40294&page=3


As long as there is some genuine substance to a romance and its NOT the central focus of the franchise then its okay, something that's beyond the whole infatuation and sexuality aspect to it, otherwise it becomes incredibly superficial in terms of story telling/character development. (So far the official TMNT franchise seems alright with a good balance, but as for the TMNT fandom...a WHOLE other story.) I'm usually only interested in romance stories, in general, that expose and reveal other aspects of a character's personality that actually gives more depth/complexity to that character.

[Jester]

Yeah, that's why I have trouble with the RPG threads....tons of "And I'll be my fan character, _______". Can we not just use canon characters, please.

[CyberCubed]

I guess it probably helps that TMNT has an all-male main cast besides April.

When you think of the franchise the only two major females are April and Karai, the others only tend to appear in certain series, (like Irma in the original toon, or Ninjara just in Archie, etc).

[Refractive Reflections]

I guess it probably helps that TMNT has an all-male main cast besides April.

When you think of the franchise the only two major females are April and Karai, the others only tend to appear in certain series, (like Irma in the original toon, or Ninjara just in Archie, etc).

LOL, not only that but if there were too many females in the TMNT cast then it would be more of a "sorority house" atmosphere with more drama emphasis, rather than action/fighting. :lol: The TMNT franchise would then border onto appealing to a more female demographic and probably most of us (mostly males) wouldn't find TMNT as appealing as we do now.

[Pterobat]

I guess it probably helps that TMNT has an all-male main cast besides April.

When you think of the franchise the only two major females are April and Karai, the others only tend to appear in certain series, (like Irma in the original toon, or Ninjara just in Archie, etc).

Yeah, but it sucks that there are less female characters because, you know, we girls would like somebody to identify with, too.

Look at it this way: if there were more female characters, that means less original characters to fill the gap. Maybe. :P

[Yorae]

LOL, not only that but if there were too many females in the TMNT cast then it would be more of a "sorority house" atmosphere with more drama emphasis, rather than action/fighting. :lol: The TMNT franchise would then border onto appealing to a more female demographic and probably most of us (mostly males) wouldn't find TMNT as appealing as we do now.

I don't think the appeal to females is reliant on having more female characters. From what I've seen, younger female fans thrive on franchises with almost all-male casts but which focus more on drama/inner conflict/angst.

[zkarlette]

That's true, the OT has a big female following and there weren't many female characters. We don't need this show to become " sweet valley high".

[CyberCubed]

Yeah, but it sucks that there are less female characters because, you know, we girls would like somebody to identify with, too.

Look at it this way: if there were more female characters, that means less original characters to fill the gap. Maybe. :P

And it could go in the wrong direction, see Venus.

I am hoping Irma shows up in the Nick cartoon as April's classmate...I think the April/Irma dynamic could work well in the new series.

[Pterobat]

Venus's gender wasn't the problem. The problem was they tried to shoehorn a fifth character into a dynamic that had already been well-established, and made this character a naive idiot. A fifth male Turtle could have been just as awful in this way.

And of course viewers can like characters of a different gender from themselves, or have other traits different from them. That's not the point, though: the point is that having more female characters shouldn't be seen as a negative thing, and sometimes it *does* work for female viewers.

[IcyKali]

I was actually also surprised by the lack of crazy shipping in the main part of this fandom. I wonder if it's because people like the ones on this forum just don't have the sort of bashing, ship-war-inducing attitude?

Also, it's highly likely that there are shippers here and they just don't talk about it. I'm a shipper, but I've never done any shipping fanart or fanfiction, nor have I ever really had a conversation about it.

[Refractive Reflections]

I don't think the appeal to females is reliant on having more female characters. From what I've seen, younger female fans thrive on franchises with almost all-male casts but which focus more on drama/inner conflict/angst.

I guess I was looking more on the other side of the issue where if, and I mean IF, too many females were added to a TMNT TV series (OT, 2K3, or 2012) it would gain more girl fans (despite TMNT already having some) but abandon boy fans. During that age most kids play within their own gender. What I was thinking is that if boys kept seeing too many female characters the boys would think it was a "girly" show and not watch it.

Even though the plentiful female characters could "kick butt" still I think boys would abandon it, just because there were too many girls (in their simple minds), and lump the changed TMNT series into the category with other girl action shows like "Sailor Moon" even though the tones for either show are completely different.

[Candy Kappa]

I like how this thread describes Shippers are a separate unit of a fandom, as if that is all they are about and contribute.

[Jephael]

As a fan fiction writer, I usually try to stick with the canon relationships, especially when concerning properties like Harry Potter or Back to the Future. But with comic book/cartoon characters, I like to take some creative liberties. I'm a big Raphael/Mona Lisa shipper. I also like to ship Beast Boy and Raven from Teen Titans together, though in the comics they did hook up at one point, so in a way it's canon.

[Shredded]

I guess I was looking more on the other side of the issue where if, and I mean IF, too many females were added to a TMNT TV series (OT, 2K3, or 2012) it would gain more girl fans (despite TMNT already having some) but abandon boy fans. During that age most kids play within their own gender. What I was thinking is that if boys kept seeing too many female characters the boys would think it was a "girly" show and not watch it.

Even though the plentiful female characters could "kick butt" still I think boys would abandon it, just because there were too many girls (in their simple minds), and lump the changed TMNT series into the category with other girl action shows like "Sailor Moon" even though the tones for either show are completely different.

I don't think adding more females would gain it more female viewers or any-thing like that at all.

No one in their life has ever gone. "Oh so that show have more girls huh? Omg! I better go watch that!" ....

If my little pony as taught us some-thing, it is that as long as characters are written well, it doesn't matter what gender they have, what marks a well written character is that any gender can relate to him/her despite of the characters or viewers gender!

The real issue is that half the world population are women, and it can become frustrating as hell to feel so under represented in our favourite mediums all the time, it's like never to be acknowledged at all. To only be met with fictional worlds where men are the domination species, only men can do interesting stuff or have flaws, and we are treated as an entire other species all together where it's a "big deal." every time a woman enters the picture.

"Women with important functions, flawed background and personality.. what's that?"
thanks, really mature -_-;

And you know, a good writer can write lots of female characters without making them a love interest.
It hasn't happened in the tmnt show, but it could, good writers should be able to write a nice platonic male-female friendship. You know, like Leo and April in the last episode.

Avatar the Last airbender was a show that had a very fair amount of women, without ending up in the sailor moon, my little pony category.
Heck. "Avatar the legend of Korra." has a female lead, and doesn't fall into that trap, it is possible!

A sign of a bad writer is that they keep falling back on the love interest as if it's a safety net and they have nothing else.

I gotta be honest though, in the case of the nick show, I have a very difficult time disliking either crush. first of all, these a clearly teenagers surfacing for the first time, so for them to develop first time crushs only seems natural, and yeah.. falling in love is a way of life.

Donnies crush on April do appear a lot, but on the same way it doesn't get in the way of their other interactions, it's there for a breath joke, and then Donnie is back to being Donnie again, rambling some scinesy mumbo jumbo. They actually managed to write it so it doesn't feel forced.

And Leos crush on Karai while looking way more subtle, also seemed interesting and genuinly sweet, and I could easily see it lead to dillemas plot wise. So well.. I have such a hard time disliking any of these pairings.

Would it be nice though, if they introduced a woman no one has a crush on? Sure! that would be wonderful if Irma went on a visit, and she was merely "one of the dudes but a girl." that would be great!

[Loudo]

As for why the shipping centers around the Nick series, it's probably because the Nick series is *new*. Even the 2003 series ended four years ago, which makes it ancient in media years.
Are you sure about this? I don't think the 2012 series has had enough time yet to have more "shipping" material than the 2003 series. XD

I like how this thread describes Shippers are a separate unit of a fandom, as if that is all they are about and contribute.
Yeah, that.
I mean, I write ship fics myself but I don't post them here because I know this forum isn't frequented for the most part by people who would like to read those. That doesn't make me a separate unit of the fandom.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

A fifth male Turtle could have been just as awful in this way.



Archie Slash almost became that when he teamed up with the turtles against Malinga.

[Pterobat]

There's a million people in media studies who will say that boys will watch things with boys, and girls will watch things with girls and boys, so it makes more sense to market to boys. But that's not something that's the ideal state of affairs.

The real issue is that half the world population are women, and it can become frustrating as hell to feel so under represented in our favourite mediums all the time, it's like never to be acknowledged at all. To only be met with fictional worlds where men are the domination species, only men can do interesting stuff or have flaws, and we are treated as an entire other species all together where it's a "big deal." every time a woman enters the picture.

"Women with important functions, flawed background and personality.. what's that?"
thanks, really mature -_-;

THANK YOU.

Jeez.

Are you sure about this? I don't think the 2012 series has had enough time yet to have more "shipping" material than the 2003 series. XD

I haven't done any formal surveys or anything, it's just an observation from my time spent Tumblring, where most Turtles posts are about the 2012 series, and that many general fandom communities are discussing currently-running shows like Dr. Who, Sherlock, and Supernatural with a lot more quantity and gusto than older shows.

Archie Slash almost became that when he teamed up with the turtles against Malinga.

Slash is a good character, though. I think it would've been too lazy to make him a fifth member of the Turtles instead of simply being their ally, but he's definitely not a silly, naive idiot like Venus.

[CyberCubed]

I get the feeling many people watching the Nick cartoon are new to the franchise and have no experience with TMNT otherwise. That's where all these new shippers are coming from.

They never saw the two previous cartoons, movies or comics so this is their first exposure to TMNT and think this is the usual.

Boy if those shippers ever watch the older incarnations they'll be surprised how different they were.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Slash is a good character, though. I think it would've been too lazy to make him a fifth member of the Turtles instead of simply being their ally, but he's definitely not a silly, naive idiot like Venus.

Slash rocks when he's cool, beats up everyone and not stupid looking for palmtrees.

[Loudo]

I haven't done any formal surveys or anything, it's just an observation from my time spent Tumblring, where most Turtles posts are about the 2012 series, and that many general fandom communities are discussing currently-running shows like Dr. Who, Sherlock, and Supernatural with a lot more quantity and gusto than older shows.
Oh, ok. I'm not familiar with Tumblr, but I'm not surprised if the 2012 is getting more comments.
However, if we are talking about things like fanarts and fanfics shipping characters together, there are plenty from the 2003 series and I think the 2012 series will need much more time to surpass its ancestor.

[Refractive Reflections]

I don't think adding more females would gain it more female viewers or any-thing like that at all.

No one in their life has ever gone. "Oh so that show have more girls huh? Omg! I better go watch that!" ....

If my little pony as taught us some-thing, it is that as long as characters are written well, it doesn't matter what gender they have, what marks a well written character is that any gender can relate to him/her despite of the characters or viewers gender!

The real issue is that half the world population are women, and it can become frustrating as hell to feel so under represented in our favourite mediums all the time, it's like never to be acknowledged at all. To only be met with fictional worlds where men are the domination species, only men can do interesting stuff or have flaws, and we are treated as an entire other species all together where it's a "big deal." every time a woman enters the picture.

"Women with important functions, flawed background and personality.. what's that?"
thanks, really mature -_-;

While I understand your issue and agree that women should wholeheartedly be represented respectfully in TV shows...BUT...
We're talking about kids 10 years and younger...:roll: We're not talking about viewers older than elementary school.

You really think kids have the mental capacity to identify themselves with girls when they are already trying to establish their own sexual identity in being a boy or girl? And this is the time before the whole "birds and the bees" talk...

Anyways, I have yet to see a sizable proportion of elementary school boys be proud that they watch "My Little Pony". (Ugh...sometimes people forget that we are talking about KIDS watching TMNT and its appeal to them..not grown teenagers or adults here...sheesh)

There's a million people in media studies who will say that boys will watch things with boys, and girls will watch things with girls and boys, so it makes more sense to market to boys. But that's not something that's the ideal state of affairs.



THANK YOU.

Jeez.


Thank you Pterobat for understanding/support. I have no idea how Shredded interpreted and twisted the benign, innocuous comment into an offensive sexism issue. Oh brother...

[Pterobat]

Uh, I *was* agreeing with Shredded. I do think it's not a big deal for kids of any age to be asked to identify with people that are different from them, since, unless they're living in a box, they're going to experience that in real life. And the mentality Shredded described is a real problem, and really annoying.

When I said that "girls will watch boys and girls, but boys will only watch boys", I was *not* agreeing with that idea. It's just that, whenever you discuss gender in media, somebody will say that that's the common wisdom by the Powers that Be, usually not agreeing with that view, either.

[CyberCubed]

Well girls do tend to watch boy cartoons more than boys watching girl cartoons.

The only difference is female superhero leads like Wonder Woman and Batgirl or stuff like that.

[CyberCubed]

Who is Radical? Is she from the comics?

Yes. She's a superhero character.

[RiseAbove873]

Yes. She's a superhero character.

Thanks for the confirmation. I did a quick internet search and deleted my post after I found her, but before I read your reply.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Eastman and Laird themselves deliberately decided there wouldn't be female Turtles. In the Mirage series, April and Renet were the major female characters.

I remember a cartoon of Doctor Who where the series could sell a blank videotape, the title being "Doctor Who: The Great Love Scenes".

[Refractive Reflections]

Uh, I *was* agreeing with Shredded. I do think it's not a big deal for kids of any age to be asked to identify with people that are different from them, since, unless they're living in a box, they're going to experience that in real life. And the mentality Shredded described is a real problem, and really annoying.

When I said that "girls will watch boys and girls, but boys will only watch boys", I was *not* agreeing with that idea. It's just that, whenever you discuss gender in media, somebody will say that that's the common wisdom by the Powers that Be, usually not agreeing with that view, either.

Anyways, my first comments were just about that..."girls will watch boys and girls, but boys will only watch boys". I was just stating how it is, NOT my personal hardcore beliefs on how it should be. Furthermore, its followed by the fact that kids will play with other kids that they have the most interests with, and usually at that young age and young mentality its with the same gender. What I was expressing is that for a KIDS show to display deeper issues of relating to others outside of their own gender beyond the romance interest is great :), but is a tall demand since most kids can't even decide what they want for dinner or what clothes to wear, much less fully grasp the innate similarities/differences between boys and girls, that we do as adults, at such a young age.
...And that adult viewers need to be aware of that.

Furthermore its unfair to place kids shows, like TMNT, as the target for much broader societal/cultural issues of sexism when NOT EVEN our own primetime, adult audience shows can get it right and they take sexism to a MUCH greater extreme.


But I have to point out though, if one were to say that only "boy shows" do that oversimplification to the other gender, isn't entirely true... there are "girl shows" (children and tween shows) that oversimplify boys into the object of "romantic interest" only and that's frustrating also. (That reinforce to girls on those shows the only boys worth dating are the good-looking, popular guys, with many Gary Stu qualities.) Of course the oversimplification/objectification is no where as bad as girls/women, but don't think us guys are immune to it either in the female realm of entertainment.

[plastroncafe]

Hooray! Fanboy misogyny 101!


You really think kids have the mental capacity to identify themselves with girls when they are already trying to establish their own sexual identity in being a boy or girl? And this is the time before the whole "birds and the bees" talk...

Just so I'm clear, kids are just boys. And boys can't identify with girls because that means they'd have to think about sex, and they're too young for that.

Is that what you're trying to say there, JLS?

Anyways, I have yet to see a sizable proportion of elementary school boys be proud that they watch "My Little Pony". (Ugh...sometimes people forget that we are talking about KIDS watching TMNT and its appeal to them..not grown teenagers or adults here...sheesh)

That's a shame, that sizable proportion of the elementary age boy market you've got your finger on the pulse of is missing out on a great show with clever writing and great character design.

All because girls are icky and confusing.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

While I understand your issue and agree that women should wholeheartedly be represented respectfully in TV shows...BUT...


So, children younger than 10 shall grow up with shows representing females as stupid?

[Refractive Reflections]

Hooray! Fanboy misogyny 101!

Just so I'm clear, kids are just boys. And boys can't identify with girls because that means they'd have to think about sex, and they're too young for that.

Is that what you're trying to say there, JLS?


I guess the clarified terms is gender identity, NOT sexual identity. Whoops! LOL :roll:

What I was saying is that age, kids are trying to understand the differences between being a girl and boy and its a difficult time for them to understand those differences when society tells them what behaviors/attitudes is a "girl" and "boy" and trying to sift out that from relating to a different gender in having shared personalities.

So, children younger than 10 shall grow up with shows representing females as stupid?

(Ugh...why are people taking this out of context...)

I'm not saying that, what I am saying is that don't expect children to have the same appreciation and cognitive awareness, like we do as adults, to fully learn about and understand the different gender in solely a KIDS show and people placing those expectations on a kids show is a tall order.

They should learn it from, and is most effective, through life experience, parental guidance, and in schools, not in a one-way form of communication (i.e. TV).

[plastroncafe]

I guess the clarified terms is gender identity, NOT sexual identity. Whoops! LOL :roll:

What I was saying is that age, kids are trying to understand the differences between being a girl and boy and its a difficult time for them to understand those differences when society tells them what is a "girl" and "boy" between having shared personalities to relate to.

No, I get what you're saying. I just happen to think that your opinion is bunk, and offensive.

This right here:

LOL, not only that but if there were too many females in the TMNT cast then it would be more of a "sorority house" atmosphere with more drama emphasis, rather than action/fighting. The TMNT franchise would then border onto appealing to a more female demographic and probably most of us (mostly males) wouldn't find TMNT as appealing as we do now.

Is offensive.

[Refractive Reflections]

No, I get what you're saying. I just happen to think that your opinion is bunk, and offensive.

That kids don't have a difficult time trying to understand who they are when growing up? When peer pressure tells them what's girly or manly?


This right here:
Is offensive.

You noticed that boys and girls do interact with each other differently right? Between different genders and within the same gender?
...So if I said TMNT is already a fraternity house of characters, with it mostly having an all-male cast, is considered offensive too? :-?
But honestly, how many shows do you know where there is mostly an all-female cast and a majority of them are male fans? (I'm not saying I support this unfair balance, but that's just how the TV audience gravitates toward.)

[Zulithe]

I guess you could call me a shipper of sorts. I find it amusing more than anything; I'm not that serious about it or anything. Mostly I just read the posts on tumblr and deviantart and it's fun to think about the "what if..." scenarios as well as the kind of stuff that is not likely to ever be explored in the comics or shows.

Like personally I know a lot of TMNT fans would find this reprehensible but I feel like at least one of the turtles should be gay. If it were up to me it would be Raph :p Being gay myself it's always just been something I've offhandedly thought about. Not gonna detail it more than that... I just have my own feelings and theories on it. And yeah I know it is totally ridiculous to even think about these sorts of things when they are the only ones of their kind... well, depending on which universe and whatnot you subscribe to :) But hey, just because they are mutant turtles doesn't mean they don't have needs!

[plastroncafe]

I find your condescension tiresome.

There is precious little difference between the wants and needs of an elementary school child, regardless of gender.

The only reason children are "confused" is when they're told they can't like something because of their gender expression. If we let kids like what they wanted to like regardless there'd be no confusion.

There's nothing wrong with a boy liking My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. It's a good show with solid writing and animation.

Just as there's nothing wrong with a girl liking TMNT, for the exact same reasons.

But you wouldn't know that when you come to places like this. Where talk of "ships" is dismissed as Girl Stuff and made "less than." It's crap, and it should be called out as crap every time it surfaces.

Just because someone doesn't play with your dolls the way that you do doesn't make them any less of a fan than you are. Get over it.
And while you're getting over it, get over the idea, no matter how subtle, that girls/women are less than boys/men. Because that's what this all boils down to.

We're not less, we're equal. And we have every right to be here.

[Pterobat]

Yeah.

Basically, nobody is saying that boys and girls aren't different.

It's just that the reasoning "you can't have too many girls in a show for boys because boys are already confused about life and showing characters who are different from them will confuse them more" is weak.

Everybody is going to experience people who are different from they are, right from day one, and it's no big deal for entertainment to try to reflect that.

Asking why series with mostly-female casts aren't popular with young boys only proves there's a double standard, because plenty of girls, including me, grew up liking TMNT, which was "for boys", and had mostly male characters.

[snake]

So, children younger than 10 shall grow up with shows representing females as stupid?

That's most of the crap on Disney channel or any of those channels:roll:

[Refractive Reflections]

I find your condescension tiresome.

There is precious little difference between the wants and needs of an elementary school child, regardless of gender.

The only reason children are "confused" is when they're told they can't like something because of their gender expression. If we let kids like what they wanted to like regardless there'd be no confusion.

There's nothing wrong with a boy liking My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. It's a good show with solid writing and animation.

Just as there's nothing wrong with a girl liking TMNT, for the exact same reasons.

But you wouldn't know that when you come to places like this. Where talk of "ships" is dismissed as Girl Stuff and made "less than." It's crap, and it should be called out as crap every time it surfaces.

Just because someone doesn't play with your dolls the way that you do doesn't make them any less of a fan than you are. Get over it.
And while you're getting over it, get over the idea, no matter how subtle, that girls/women are less than boys/men. Because that's what this all boils down to.

We're not less, we're equal. And we have every right to be here.

I think the point of confusion was not clearly separating my opinions from societal trends/tendencies. I apologize if it was interpreted offensively, and I do believe in gender equality and I don't think any particular trait/show as "girly" or "manly", but we live in this world that DOES do it. Unlike we as adults who have the knowledge to go beyond it, for children it's difficult because they start with a new slate and sometimes just want to "belong", and fall into that.

As for the "shipping", well I prefer romantic stories that have substance, as I said before, where each other brings out different sides to them that goes beyond the whole infatuation/sexuality aspect of it because there is more to life than just romance with you live with someone. Inevitably you have to relate to that person when the infatuation subsides and learn to grow with each others' strengths, weaknesses, and personalities.

My sincerest apologizes if you were offended.

[The Big Bad]

This seems highly relevant to the discussion: Boys don’t read Girl Books and other lies my Society Told Me (http://culturallydisoriented.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/boys-dont-read-girl-books-and-other-lies-my-society-told-me/)

Personally, I'm fine with shipping as a concept. Sure, I don't claim to understand a whole bunch of it, and think there's some problematic attitudes underpinning some of it--mostly the idea that affectionate relationships have to have romantic undertones--but it's too large and diverse a concept to be treated as a monolith. Plus...Veronica/Meg (Veronica Mars) forever, y'all !


That's true, the OT has a big female following and there weren't many female characters. We don't need this show to become " sweet valley high".

Yes, because this was precisely the problem with Avatar: The Last Airbender and The Hunger Games. Or Kill Bill. Or The Powerpuff Girls. Or Y: The Last Man. Or Beyond Good and Evil. Sweet Valley High clones, all of them. (ETA: I have never read any "Sweet Valley High" books and so cannot attest to their quality. The fact that their subject matter and target audience are girls does not make it any better or worse than any of the other named products, nor is pointing out the difference meant to be a condemnation.)

Yes, these are not all children's products. But all too often, the idea "boys don't consume stuff starring girls" becomes the equally wrong-headed "men don't consume stuff starring women"; the problem is by no means limited by age.


Even though the plentiful female characters could "kick butt" still I think boys would abandon it, just because there were too many girls (in their simple minds), and lump the changed TMNT series into the category with other girl action shows like "Sailor Moon" even though the tones for either show are completely different.

We're talking about kids 10 years and younger... We're not talking about viewers older than elementary school.
[...]


Again, Avatar's, commitment to gender parity (or something quite resembling it) did not seem to harm it any, and I'm curious to see where you get this notion that it would from. You seem to underestimate children greatly.


Anyways, I have yet to see a sizable proportion of elementary school boys be proud that they watch "My Little Pony". (Ugh...sometimes people forget that we are talking about KIDS watching TMNT and its appeal to them..not grown teenagers or adults here...sheesh)

Question: do you believe this state of affairs is something inherent, or the result of a culture that keeps on pushing a false narrative that "stuff for boys is good, stuff for girls is good enough for them" precisely via shows like TMNT? And if its the latter, why shouldn't TMNT play a part in pushing against those notions? If The Hunger Games can do it, what's stopping TMNT?

[Blossombrooks]

I'm Blossombrooks and i'm a 'shipper'...god this is like an AA confessional.
The notion that none of the members on here 'ship' is obviously wrong (hello, waves:D) no I don't do 'turtlecest' yes I use an non-canon character. Why?? Because I wanted a female character to kick some ass, not be a member of the foot and have a convincing relationship. I invented my o/c when I was a kid watching the OT, at that age and even now as an adult I still long for balance.

TMNT[/I]? And if its the latter, why shouldn't TMNT play a part in pushing against those notions? If The Hunger Games can do it, what's stopping TMNT?


Its a vicious circle really, our nature once defined us this way but nurture is now in control and if parents don't allow their children the freedom to make choices irrespective of gender then it will continue. Should TMNT change the boundaries? I don't want to see it change beyond recognition but Nick Splinter and 2k3 Splinter make moves to train April and that gives me hope. She is portrayed as strong, I think there's room for a little Katniss in there.

[Jester]

Splinter training April to be a ninja was started with the Archie books, thank you very much. ;)
As for "shipping" it seems to only further cement stereotypes....not break them down

[BubblyShell22]

I do ship occasionally when I have an idea for it, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it as long as it's done well. It doesn't matter what version it is, as long as it's well-written, I'll read it. And if I have an idea, I'll gladly put it out there and just see how it works. If people don't like it, fine. If people do, that's great.

I haven't done much shipping for the new cartoon yet though I did create an OC for Leo for my story "Truth and Lies." I also ship Don and April in that one. But other than that, not much shipping from me yet. I did ship Leo and Karai in 2K3 and might do it for the new series if it's hinted at more. I want to wait to see what the show does first before I make it official yet.

[Shredded]

Anyways, my first comments were just about that..."girls will watch boys and girls, but boys will only watch boys". I was just stating how it is, NOT my personal hardcore beliefs on how it should be. Furthermore, its followed by the fact that kids will play with other kids that they have the most interests with, and usually at that young age and young mentality its with the same gender. What I was expressing is that for a KIDS show to display deeper issues of relating to others outside of their own gender beyond the romance interest is great :), but is a tall demand since most kids can't even decide what they want for dinner or what clothes to wear, much less fully grasp the innate similarities/differences between boys and girls, that we do as adults, at such a young age.
...And that adult viewers need to be aware of that.

Furthermore its unfair to place kids shows, like TMNT, as the target for much broader societal/cultural issues of sexism when NOT EVEN our own primetime, adult audience shows can get it right and they take sexism to a MUCH greater extreme.


But I have to point out though, if one were to say that only "boy shows" do that oversimplification to the other gender, isn't entirely true... there are "girl shows" (children and tween shows) that oversimplify boys into the object of "romantic interest" only and that's frustrating also. (That reinforce to girls on those shows the only boys worth dating are the good-looking, popular guys, with many Gary Stu qualities.) Of course the oversimplification/objectification is no where as bad as girls/women, but don't think us guys are immune to it either in the female realm of entertainment.

That's because those shows aren't intelligent and doesn't have good writing, neither does the girl shows presenting boys like that. Those aren't good shows!

And... ten year old boy have no problem watching girls as long as they actually do some-thing awesome. For just a few examples.

Sailor moon, while they have a 'mostly' female fan-base... 30-40% of the sailor moon fan-base are actually boys!
Why? because they fight monsters and it's awesome, that's why.

"Legend of Korra." the real story is that nicklelodion was highly against having a female main character in that show, using the exact same reasoning you just did. "But we'll loose boy viewers this way!"
.... they didn't, Legend of Korra was the most viewed animated show in all of 2012. When they made a survave afterwards actually asking people what they thought about the lead character being woman, they mostly asked children in the age 12-15 and the answer was astounding..
The children honestly did not care one bit whether Korra was a girl or not, they just thought she was awesome.. cause she was awesome.

"My little pony friendship is magic." is honestly an amazing show, because it's the first all star girls show I can think off actually breaking away from the usual girl stereo-type.
Having female characters not caught up in what producers seems to think girl characters are all about, what producers think girls want to watch, not having them always talk about only;
"Boys, social status and clothes." which seems to be the three major concerns in the regular cartoon girls life.. as if we don't think about other stuff.
(this is also a problem coming from having mostly male writers working in the industry, they just assume what girls want, they don't really know. So having a woman work on girls shows such as Powerpuff girls or my little pony, it turned out different, wauw, who knew?)
And what was the product of my little pony, breaking free of the usual stereo-types? Because it had well rounded good characters, whom were not caught up in the usual "girl syndrom." They were characters with different personalities and back-grounds, whom just happened to be girls, always a character first and foremost.
Boys could identify to! not only twenty year olds, but ten year olds as well, they love the show cause it's funny and well written, they don't care that the main characters are girls, cause they are not caught up in the usual girly context.


Seems to me kids couldn't care less about what gender their characters have, as long as they are fun and exciting.
So it's sad the kids are programmed from such a young age to think. "omg, girls, different species entirely!" when in reality.. we aren't that different at all, we want the same things basically.

Hell the Trekkie culture were created by girls, and it's sad so many girls feels like they have to write "Gender-bend." fan-fictions because they identify better with the males, and wished there was a female some-where like that, same personality as the males, same interests, just being female, that's all we really want.

So well.. boys wont watch girls shows? that's a lie, it's just that most girl shows hasn't been well written at all! and been to caught up in what people think are girls things, for their own good, namely characters whom talks about nothing else then.
"Boys, social status and clothes." which is aggravating for girls to, I liked watching "totally spies." because of the spy missions, I couldn't stand the constant boys talk, none of my friends could, it's just the writers whom assumed that that was the only way to write female characters! Not even girls really like it to be to cherry sweet, no one likes "Bratz." after they turned thirteen-

And this is a problem, medias are labeling girls as being one specific thing and acting in only one specific way.

yeah it's a universal problem! it's even larger in the movie world than the TV world, at least the TV shows consistently tries to do some-thing about it, while the movies really do any such thing.

But if we don't speak up against it, and use success stories to make examples, telling about the problem and spreading the word.. then what?

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

I guess you could call me a shipper of sorts. I find it amusing more than anything; I'm not that serious about it or anything. Mostly I just read the posts on tumblr and deviantart and it's fun to think about the "what if..." scenarios as well as the kind of stuff that is not likely to ever be explored in the comics or shows.

Like personally I know a lot of TMNT fans would find this reprehensible but I feel like at least one of the turtles should be gay. If it were up to me it would be Raph :p Being gay myself it's always just been something I've offhandedly thought about. Not gonna detail it more than that... I just have my own feelings and theories on it. And yeah I know it is totally ridiculous to even think about these sorts of things when they are the only ones of their kind... well, depending on which universe and whatnot you subscribe to :) But hey, just because they are mutant turtles doesn't mean they don't have needs!

Not reprehensible, just pointless. Why should there be a gay Turtle anyway? To make the others feel uncomfortable? To act like a gay stereotype? (Raphael having a collection of Barbara Streisand records?) Or if you want gay sex involving the Turtles...well, you don't have to look far for that.:tconfuse:

[Refractive Reflections]

To "The Big Bad",

All I was ever trying to say...was that kids at a young age relate to other kids of the same gender more than of a different gender. We can see that in playgrounds when 70-80% of the kids stick with their own gender. So in these kids' minds, as limited as they are, if they see more and more female characters in a show, the boys will feel alienated since it "appears" to be catering to girls more than boys (the "sorority house" reply). (And culturally, kids are immediately informed about their gender differences.)

Of course it would be great to have depthful and plentiful female characters in a TMNT cartoon...as I said before, but you have to ask the question is do you think kids have the cognitive ability to transcend above those gender differences and see their character? Remember now this is the age of "cooties", can't even plan their day out, have temper tantrums, and the same stage of life were bullying is rampant.

If kids we're able to really look beyond the superficial more boys would appreciate "My Little Pony" and enjoy it with its good themes/morals. Furthermore, if kids were so mentally capable of appreciating diversity we wouldn't have the problem of bullying in our schools. So that's why I "underestimate" (as you say) children.

Let's not forgot the added pressure of pop culture telling those children what's "traditionally" male or female in terms of interests.

Therefore after all of this, it makes sense that a children's franchise would mostly have an all-female or all-male characters because its difficult sometimes to have an equal proportion of both boys and girls enjoying it (without being primarily comedic).


Sailor moon, while they have 'mostly' a female fan-base... 30-40% of the sailor moon fan-base are actually boys!
Why? because they fight monsters and it's awesome, that's why.

C'mon now Shredded :lol:, I have a feeling those male fans are teenage boys and older because of the "enticing" microskirts those girls wear. Now if they had full length dresses or pants I could see your point, but that anime show definitely has some Lolita imagery. (I'm surprised more parents didn't complain about that show.)

---
In the end, as much as we may want to help our children grow to appreciate diversity through TMNT or other kids' shows, the big question is...CAN kids mentally process that (Without directly instructing them like Sesame Street does.)? I mean the OT show constantly hinted about the problems of racism (with the Turtles and Splinter being ostracized/persecuted by society), but I never saw or heard a kid (KIDS only now) come away from that show consciously thinking about it and applying it to their own life and being against racism.

I'm going to end my replies here on this thread.

Sorry CyberCubed, I didn't mean for pointing one societal tendency to be twisted into an explosive issue of a misogynistic opinion (which I never had and apologize to anyone if it was interpreted as such); it was unfair to your thread here CyberCubed. :ohwell:

[Shredded]

Not reprehensible, just pointless. Why should there be a gay Turtle anyway? To make the others feel uncomfortable? To act like a gay stereotype? (Raphael having a collection of Barbara Streisand records?) Or if you want gay sex involving the Turtles...well, you don't have to look far for that.:tconfuse:

Just because a person is gay doesn't mean he falls into any gay arch type.

homo-sexuals of either gender are just people whom happens to have a sexual preference different than the norm. They are still as different as every-body else, they don't necesarily like Barbere Straisand or any-thing like that.

And it's only natural for any-one whom stands a bit out-side of the norm to want some-body to identify with in their favourite franchise, that's all natural, that's the same reason I keep shouting. "More women!" at every-thing.

Also the reason I keep on shouting. "Woman whom is a bit of a dork, awkward in conversations, doesn't fall in the regular smart girl gender-role." ... cause that is the woman I would be able to identify with..

[Blossombrooks]

Splinter training April to be a ninja was started with the Archie books, thank you very much. ;)

Ah ok, fair enough. I haven't read any archie, just mirage, but good for them. :D

As for "shipping" it seems to only further cement stereotypes....not break them down

You can't tar it all with the same brush, some fics which use relationships are well thought out (not mine I hasten to add :lol:) and handle the theme in a way that shows the characters at their best and worst. It really is down to the author. Not all 'ship' fics are about damsels in distress swooning, and if they are well each to their own, no one is forced to read it but I don't personally want to see that type of ship included in canon.

[Loudo]

Not reprehensible, just pointless. Why should there be a gay Turtle anyway? To make the others feel uncomfortable? To act like a gay stereotype? (Raphael having a collection of Barbara Streisand records?) Or if you want gay sex involving the Turtles...well, you don't have to look far for that.:tconfuse:
Why shouldn't there be a gay turtle? I can understand if you tell me "I don't care about the romance, I just want to watch the Turtles fight". But if a turtle can be straight, he can be gay.
And why should having a gay turtle make the others feel uncomfortable? Let me rephrase that. Why do you think that is a legitimate response? If some of the turtles feel uncomfortable having a gay brother, that's their problem to overcome (and it could potentially make an interesting story to tell).
And, you know, you don't have to fit a gay stereotype to be gay. Raphael can be gay without changing one bit of his personality or musical tastes.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying there should be a gay turtle, but there is no reason why there shouldn't be one. Especially in the continuities where the turtles show some form of sexuality.
If Archie Raph can have a girlfriend and Nick Don be a creepy stalker, then I don't see why we can't have a Archie/Nick gay turtle.

[CyberCubed]

Nobody wants to see a gay turtle because that implies Turtlecest. People only do that to pair the Turtles to each other.

The only other male turtle is Slash and he's usually never around.

[Shredded]

To "The Big Bad",



C'mon now Shredded :lol:, I have a feeling those male fans are teenage boys and older because of the "enticing" microskirts those girls wear. Now if they had full length dresses or pants I could see your point, but that anime show definitely has some Lolita imagery. (I'm surprised more parents didn't complain about that show.)

---
In the end, as much as we may want to help our children grow to appreciate diversity through TMNT or other kids' shows, the big question is...CAN kids mentally process that? (Without directly instructing them like Sesame Street does.) I mean the OT show constantly hinted about the problems of racism (with the Turtles and Splinter being ostracized/persecuted by society), but I never saw or heard a kid (KIDS only now) come away from that show consciously thinking about it and applying it to their own life and being against racism.

I'm going to end my replies here on this thread.

Sorry CyberCubed, I didn't mean for pointing one societal tendency to be twisted into an explosive issue of a misogynistic opinion (which I never had and apologize to anyone if it was interpreted as such); it was unfair to your thread here CyberCubed. :ohwell:

I know plenty of adult men whom has fond memories of Sailor moon and talks exstremely fondly of it, as fondly as they talk about "Dragon Ball Z"
just saying.

And no, I am not talking about adding pressure to the children, I am talking about having more girls merely present and merely play more vital parts, having girls being more diversed and also being presented as flawed complex beings, whom also make mistakes and learn, and also are relateable.
Just having them present, as characters, would make the world of a difference.

Avatar the Last airbender all-ready proved that it is possible having a cast of almost 50/50 percent boys and girls, without any-one even noticing, we were just happy to have the interesting girls there.

Harry potter is a franchise every-body also adores, whom has a huge presentation of diversed girls, and the main girl Hermione, neither falls into the pitt of being the regular girl stereo-type, in this case having a female author probably also helped a lot.

Heck, Josh Whedon sat out to specifcially prove that you can have an action TV-show geared towards teens and young men with a female lead, that is still popular because of the story.. and he did, that's how Buffy the Vampire Slayer came to be.


The big issue, the big thing is that... we shouldn't sepperate things into. "This is for girls" and "this is for boys." at all..

Our society are moving forward, the lines between being female or male is whisked away, gender matters less and less for what interests you happen to have and honestly.. it shouldn't matter at all. To call teenage mutant ninja turtles a. "Boys show." is shooting yourself in the food, it's a kids show, geared toward all kids, boys and girls a like.

My little pony succeeded because it seized to try and be "A girls show." but just wanted to be. "A show." that is good in its own right, that just happens to have an all female cast.

There's no such thing as. "This is a boys club only." or "this is a girls clubs only" and it's also highly sexiest towards either gender to force that down on us.

The geek pot is just that, a pot of geeks, coming from all over the world being all genders.

This is a continuating problem, in all big franchises, and it wont go away any time soon, it's a left over from ancient times where females indeed only did have specific roles in the old stories, and the males had to be the heroes and main characters. All greek stories are like that, all shakesperian plays are like that. It's our modern very new culture that wants it different.

People have trouble writing women or including women for what-ever reason, some even views us as a different species entirely, which is frustrating for us.. I could write a whole essay about Christopher Nolan and his odd way to represent women in his movies.. it's really odd ones you start thinking about it.

How-ever, this show has proven itself competent in writing a female whom breaks away from the boundary, Karai, she's more character than she's female.. she just happens to be female! and that's a good thing so really, I can't complain about this show at this point.

It has an all-star male cast, safe April, because that's how it's always been! it's going to include more women in coming episodes, that much is certain, I cannot complain at all! it is doing some-thing! and so did the 2k3 show, it tried, it really did, and I can only commend both shows for it.

[Loudo]

Nobody wants to see a gay turtle because that implies Turtlecest. People only do that to pair the Turtles to each other.

The only other male turtle is Slash and he's usually never around.
So Raph can have a fox-lady girlfriend and Don like human girls, but a gay turtle must desire his own brothers?
What is that, another stereotype "Girls can fall in love with monsters, while boys can't"?

[CyberCubed]

So Raph can have a fox-lady girlfriend and Don like human girls, but a gay turtle must desire his own brothers?
What is that, another stereotype "Girls can fall in love with monsters, while boys can't"?

What would be the point? Michaelangelo falling for Mondo Gecko or something?

For the record I never cared for the Raph/Ninjara pairing either.

[Loudo]

The point would be the same of having Don drooling every other episode after April, Leo falling in love with Radical and Don acting dreamy with alien princesses: things like that make the characters more real.
Clearly, like every element in a show, they can be developped well or badly (cough... Nick Don... cough...).

[CyberCubed]

The point would be the same of having Don drooling every other episode after April, Leo falling in love with Radical and Don acting dreamy with alien princesses: things like that makes the characters more real.
Clearly, like every element in a show, they can be developped well or badly (cough... Don... cough...).

I remember Greg Weisman wanted Lexington to be gay in Gargoyles. Makes no sense as previous episodes showed him drooling over female Gargoyles.

[Shredded]

What would be the point? Michaelangelo falling for Mondo Gecko or something?

For the record I never cared for the Raph/Ninjara pairing either.

The point is that people whom just happen to have a different sexual preference rarely have any good characters they can actually identify with, as gays usually presented in any visual media are horrible stereo-types.

The point is, many uses their favourite franchises as a point to identify with characters with, and it feels frustrating when there is no one to compleately identify with and you just have to make some-thing else up.

Now, there is a difference between wanting some specific shipping, or simply just have a character being gay, just to have some-thing identifiable.

But you know, shipping in reality, is just a guilty pleasure for lots of people, often awkward teenagers, whom just tries to get their confused feelings and dreams out of the way.

It's not real, most grow out of it.

Would I want to personally want to see one of the turtles being gay? .. not really, gotta be honest. I view them in a specific way, and I don't want them to change.
Would I get angry about it? no.. not really, for me it would just sort of be there.

It would be cool though if some-one some-where, would actually bother to make a new original adventure show, and have a gay character whom does not fall into any prior gay stereo-type, but is just a good character in his own right, whom happens to be gay.

Also who really cares if Michelangelo is gay? it doesn't matter to the story at hand, it doesn't matter to the here and now situations, and if no one is ever going to specify it.. who is going to tell? thus far he didn't have a love interest, so who knows.. and who cares at this point?

Maybe the only thing he can ever love is Pizza? he is pizza-sexual.

[Loudo]

I remember Greg Weisman wanted Lexington to be gay in Gargoyles. Makes no sense as previous episodes showed him drooling over female Gargoyles.
I guess you're not familiar with bisexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexuality).

[CyberCubed]

I usually dislike it when writers take a straight character in a show or story (who has had relationships in the show) and then have them gay as the show progresses.

A good example would be Willow on Buffy the vampire slayer. Her becoming a lesbian just kinda went flat. Not to mention her love interest Tara is killed and replaced with a really terrible character.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Why shouldn't there be a gay turtle? I can understand if you tell me "I don't care about the romance, I just want to watch the Turtles fight". But if a turtle can be straight, he can be gay.
And why should having a gay turtle make the others feel uncomfortable? Let me rephrase that. Why do you think that is a legitimate response? If some of the turtles feel uncomfortable having a gay brother, that's their problem to overcome (and it could potentially make an interesting story to tell).
And, you know, you don't have to fit a gay stereotype to be gay. Raphael can be gay without changing one bit of his personality or musical tastes.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying there should be a gay turtle, but there is no reason why there shouldn't be one. Especially in the continuities where the turtles show some form of sexuality.
If Archie Raph can have a girlfriend and Nick Don be a creepy stalker, then I don't see why we can't have a Archie/Nick gay turtle.

If we want to get facetious, why couldn't there be a soft-shelled Turtle in the group? Seriously, the only motive I could think of for having any of the characters being gay would be pandering. "Look, we've got a token homosexual!" Yes, there was Franklin in the Peanuts comic strip, but he was never anything other than a token African-American. The TMNT series never struck me as being about romance, and if it were it would make some sense.

[pannoni1]

TMNT is an action/adventure franchise with a side of comedy, in which any romance can be played out. But romance is the deepest way to build characters since it clearly expresses their caring toward others, and is why so many characters have such rabid fanbases. Romance works best when developed over seasons, not episodes since unlike action which requires quick thoughts, romance is a process that needs time to develop. That's why the April/Casey relationship worked so beautifully in the 4kids series, through gradual meeting and development. Michelangelo/Kala, Leonardo/Lotus, and Raphael/Mona Lisa all seemed radiant in terms of building a relationship it was just that there was never a chance to build them due to the demands of other adventures since there's always a case that needs to be solved.

[Coola Yagami]

TMNT is an action/adventure franchise with a side of comedy, in which any romance can be played out. But romance is the deepest way to build characters since it clearly expresses their caring toward others, and is why so many characters have such rabid fanbases. Romance works best when developed over seasons, not episodes since unlike action which requires quick thoughts, romance is a process that needs time to develop. That's why the April/Casey relationship worked so beautifully in the 4kids series, through gradual meeting and development. Michelangelo/Kala, Leonardo/Lotus, and Raphael/Mona Lisa all seemed radiant in terms of building a relationship it was just that there was never a chance to build them due to the demands of other adventures since there's always a case that needs to be solved.

Also due to status quo. Raph and Ninjara had their relationship develop because she actually got toe move in and become a '5th Turtle' so to speak for over 10 or so issues, but if it was a cartoon, Ninjara would be a guest character and their romance wouldn't be shown as much.

April and Casey had romance since they weren't the main characters, whatever they do is plot B or even C to the main focus on the Turtles kicking ass and taking names.

and also.... LOL @ at people not understanding that boys and girls are different as kids are having confusing times as they grow up to identify themselves due to peer pressure and society. They must have forgotten their own childhood. Since day one the outside world around you tells you as a boy you gotta be tough, manly etc, and as a girl you have to pretty, girly etc. But what if you're a wimpy guy? Or a tomboy girl built like a brick house? They have no control of how they were born and are ridiculed by their peers for being different. Yes, you can ask 'well why can't a boy watch a girl show if it's well written?' I doubt that boy can use the 'well-written' excuse when society mocks him for watching such a show. Likewise for girls calling said girl 'weird' or whatever cause she chooses to watch Gi Joe over Jem. We forget, as adults or teenagers, we have the right to watch whatever the hell we want and not a damn what anybody says or thinks of us. As children though, the outside world, peer pressure and society as a whole, has a huge impact on how we're supposed to think and act.

[IcyKali]

My two cents: plenty of boys secretly watched shows like the Powerpuff Girls regardless (fun fact: I'm a big PPG fan! It was originally made for an older audience). It's not that children can't sympathize with characters that are the opposite sex from them, it's just that culture gives them confusing signals, and producers (and peers, and parents, etc.) might not understand what's really important when thinking of a target audience. Remember that there are plenty of bogus psychological studies out there.

As far as I can tell (note: I haven't read the comics, so keep that in mind), none of the turtles have been "confirmed" straight. They've had a few crushes, but I don't think any of them are explicitly can't be attracted to the same sex. Even if they have been, things like that are fluid--if somebody who thought they were a vegan accidentally eats some meat and likes it, what does that make them (not a perfect example, but still)? There's some food for thought (no pun intended). If you're writing a fanfiction or something, you can do whatever you want with that. It could make an interesting story, although because of the whole "mutants" thing they've had plenty of stories about acceptance already.

As for shipping... I think plenty of people here ship, they just don't mention it much because they don't get the sense that people here are focused on that kind of thing. I ship, but I don't share because I'm sure members here wouldn't care for it.

[CyberCubed]

As far as I can tell (note: I haven't read the comics, so keep that in mind), none of the turtles have been "confirmed" straight. They've had a few crushes, but I don't think any of them are explicitly can't be attracted to the same sex. Even if they have been, things like that are fluid--if somebody who thought they were a vegan accidentally eats some meat and likes it, what does that make them (not a perfect example, but still)?

These are all of the turtles crushes off the top of my head:

Leonardo: Lotus Blossom (OT), Karai, (4kids and Nick), Radical (Mirage)

Raphael: Mona Lisa (OT), Ninjara (Archie), 4kids (maybe Joy?)

Michaelangelo: Kala the Neutrino and Buffy Shellhammer (OT), Sara from Savage Dragon (Image), the Regenta (Mirage). April (Movies 1 and 2)

Donatello: Alien chick (Mirage and 4kids), April (Nick).


There's no reason to think otherwise when they've never been portrayed as such.

[Coola Yagami]

These are all of the turtles crushes off the top of my head:

Leonardo: Lotus Blossom (OT), Karai, (4kids and Nick), Radical (Mirage)

Raphael: Mona Lisa (OT), Ninjara (Archie), 4kids (maybe Joy?)

Michaelangelo: Kala the Neutrino and Buffy Shellhammer (OT), Sara from Savage Dragon (Image), the Regenta (Mirage). April (Movies 1 and 2)

Donatello: Alien chick (Mirage and 4kids), April (Nick).


There's no reason to think otherwise when they've never been portrayed as such.

Kiiiinda consider Leo/Radical and Mike/Regenta as more than just crushes since they got to do the nasty. I think it was implied that future Raph was sleeping with another foxchick, most likely to try to make up for losing Ninjara during his youth.

[Pterobat]

Honestly, nobody's saying there aren't social pressures for boys to watch only "boy's" things. I'm just saying that this can't be used to justify (not just explain) the lack of female characters in the TMNT franchise.

People say it's okay for a girl to watch boy's things, but not for a boy to watch girl's things, and likewise, that girls can identify with male characters, but boys can't identify with female characters. That is messed up.

It's also messed up to suggest one of the Turtles being gay would lead to Turtlecest, because, yeah--no.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

It's also messed up to suggest one of the Turtles being gay would lead to Turtlecest, because, yeah--no.

Then where would a gay Turtle go for gratification? I don't think most gay humans would want to do the nasty with a Turtle.

[Vegeta]

All I see are pictures of donatello and april together, in love, or having sex on tumblr. So.....I guess there is plenty o' shipping.

[CyberCubed]

All I see are pictures of donatello and april together, in love, or having sex on tumblr. So.....I guess there is plenty o' shipping.

I'm almost scared to ask this, but where are you seeing this stuff?

When I view TMNT things on tumblr I just see people making animated gifs of funny scenes from the episodes.

[Shredded]

I think the fear of turtle-cest comes from all the fan-work that genuinely pairs the turtle up with each other all the time.

It's out there, we all know it's out there. Is it messed up? sure it is! Why does it happen?

I guess the thing is that these turtles are sort of unique as an action team in that sense that, they are not just comrades in war, they are family, and they all love each other. Genuinly love each other behind all the rivalry, fights and other problems.

What people seem to miss though, is that they love each other as close family and brothers.. because they are close family and brothers!

For some reason, some people out there have difficultly handle any relationship where two characters genuinly love each other without being sexually attracted to each other.

Question should be obvious. why? why can't two persons love each other as close brothers without being sexually obligated?
Leave Frodo and Sam alone wont you, they have it very hard as it is.. And kirk and Spock.. and rainbow dash and applejack.. and raphael and Leonardo.. and Bilbo and Thorin oakenshield.. and Merry and Pippin.. and Sherlock Holmes and Watson <-oldest shipping couple ever right there.

What all these characters have in common I just mentioned is that.

Yes! they do love each other! Kirk and Spock clearly loves each other, Holmes and Watson clearly loves each other in most incarnation. Frodo and Sam loves each other, the turtles all loves each other, there is no shame in that.

How-ever, at no point in their entire own franchise has any-one of these expressed any sexual desire in each other.
They have expressed desire for emotional support, mere company from the other part, and expressed deep sadness when the other one is hurt, forming a deep love connection that easily could have been romantic, but isn't.

Does this mean any of these characters in a weak moment could fall into the arms of the other one in love?
... I don't know! maybe. And honestly I don't care, they love each other, and their sexual preferances just never were important to the story they were a part of, the only aspect that was, was the fact that they did love each other.

What makes the turtles more messed up though, is that they are brothers.. and brothers just don't do that to each other.

Raphael loves his brothers dearly, and he puts up a tough "I don't take crap." facade, but he'll do any-thing to protect them regardless. That's why we love him, that's why people keep shipping him (even though in this scenario, yes it's wrong!).. His sexual preferance . really doesn't matter at all in this connection.

If some-one feel like they can connect better to Raph if he had a secret crush on Casey jones we knew nothing about, then fine, what's the problem?

[Vivi]

If you mean obsessing about it on these forums, then yes. But otherwise it. is. everywhere.

[DonatelloFan]

This is the first time I've heard the term 'shipping'. I'm guessing it's a different way of saying 'relationship', I don't know. That term doesn't make sense at all.

[Loudo]

If we want to get facetious, why couldn't there be a soft-shelled Turtle in the group?
I can think of no reason, can you? We've had the turtles turned into cyborgs, turtles without tail and carapace, turtles blinded...
Anyway, I don't see your point. In theory, anything can be done. Then when you write the story, you choose some elements and discard others. You can't tell me "If we had a gay turtle, then we would have to have a differently abled turtle too".
To repeat myself, I'm not saying there is to be a gay turtle. But excluding that for the reasons given in this topic is stupid, and frankly quite homophobic.

Seriously, the only motive I could think of for having any of the characters being gay would be pandering. "Look, we've got a token homosexual!"
So, all the straight characters are there so you can have a token heterosexual? No, they're there because heterosexuality exists and so can be represented in fiction. The same applies for homosexuality. Just because it's less common, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Leonardo: Lotus Blossom (OT), Karai, (4kids and Nick), Radical (Mirage)

Raphael: Mona Lisa (OT), Ninjara (Archie), 4kids (maybe Joy?)

Michaelangelo: Kala the Neutrino and Buffy Shellhammer (OT), Sara from Savage Dragon (Image), the Regenta (Mirage). April (Movies 1 and 2)

Donatello: Alien chick (Mirage and 4kids), April (Nick).
Half of these are only in some fans' head...

There's no reason to think otherwise when they've never been portrayed as such.
Let me clear two points.

First, the turtles' sexuality has never been an important part of their characters. It's not something the writers have chosen to develop, with only a few exceptions. Everything else was either a one issue story or wasn't really very prominent.
So, if one author chooses to focus on this aspect, they can develop it in any way they want, because while it's true that the turtles have never been portrayed as gay, they haven't for the most part been portrayed as straight either. It's all a new field to explore.

Second point. You seem to assume that if a character has shown to like a girl, then he is straight. In real life, things don't work like that:
First of all, you can find new things about your sexuality in any moment of your life. It's not something written in stone. It's full of gay guys out there who have had relationships with girls in the past, even involving sex. Even married people can find out to be gay at one point of their lives.
This is especially true when you're a teenager (since we're talking about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles). Sexuality is still something to discover when you are so young. I have considered myself straight until I was 18. So the turtles can have crushes on all the girls you want. That doesn't mean they can't be gay.
Just like gay people exist, bi people exist as well. Sexuality isn't black or white. You can like and fall in love with girls and still like and fall in love with boys. One guy I know has recently married a boy, yet if you doubt his bisexuality he gets pissed.

Then where would a gay Turtle go for gratification? I don't think most gay humans would want to do the nasty with a Turtle.
Again, if turtles x girls is fine (and we have seen it: Leo and Radical, Don and April) why the hell must turtles x boys be an alien concept?
And if the turtles can have relationships with female monsters (Mikey and Sara, Raph and Ninjara), why can't they have them with male monsters?

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

So, all the straight characters are there so you can have a token heterosexual? No, they're there because heterosexuality exists and so can be represented in fiction. The same applies for homosexuality. Just because it's less common, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


Female turtles exist too. Yet as I mentioned before, Eastman and Laird deliberately chose to have the Turtles be all male. Of course, you can have a gay Turtle. You can have April O'Neil be a transsexual if you like. But you haven't made the case there's any reason to do so other than pandering.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I think of the other fandoms I'm in all they talk about is their ridiculous "shipping wars" where they actually fight with each other over which character should be paired with which character.



How serious do the fans take these "fights"?

[Candy Kappa]

One turtle should be Bisexual, the second should be Homosexual, the third should be Transexual the fourth shall be Female.

and to symbolic "race" diversity the turtles shall be 1 Box Turtle, 1 Red Eared Slider, 1 Yellow Belly Slider and the last a Diamond back.

I'm sure that will make everyone happy.

[Shredded]

... this threat seems to have turned into more of a discussion of principle than the actual show.

We were talking about "Fan shipping." right? What people like to do in their own spare time and how they like to make their own fan interpretation of the turtles.


Not what should happen in the show, movies or comics.

We have actual cannon stuff, and we got fandomn stuff, allright.

Fandomn stuff can base things off the cannon stuff, and the people making that can do what ever the hell they like. They can make Raphael fall in love with another dude and it's no problem. Let them!

If some-thing like the Nick show ever decided to do that... well you can count me stunned!

Not sure what I would think about that, but you gotta admit, it would be a twist. Because right now I am pretty sure that it will never ever happen
And I am sure most other people have the same mind-set, it's not even an issue, cause it wont happen.
Considering that around 30' percent of the world population have alternative sexual preferances, should we introduce characters with different sexual preferences just to have them present?
I don't know.. mostly we don't deal with sexuality at all in this show, only when it matters to the plot.
For all we know Stockman in any incanartion could be gay cause he never had any love interests. Personally I like to think he is married to his work like so many other mad scientists out there, and Michelangelo is married to Pizza.
But it honestly doesn't matter to the plot, and when it doesn't matter to the plot, we do not specify.

Turtles are not about the romances, the romances are at the very most, b-plots to the action A-plots.
Cause the show is about the action and adventure, not romance, relationships nor sexualities. We got other shows for that!

And sadly, America aren't as far as Britten, whom constantly stuff gays into the background of their Doctor who episodes.. just because they can.
John Watson has a lesbian sister now, why? ... just because.

[CyberCubed]

Half of these are only in some fans' head...

Uh, no. Since the cartoons are aimed at children, they make the crushes blatantly visible for kids to see.

Mike blushes bright red when talking to Kala in one of the episodes. Leonardo's crush on Lotus was even blatantly stated in the episode. Raph's crush on Mona Lisa was a bit more subtle, but it was there.

The relationships in the comics, (Ninjara, Sara, the Regenta, Radical), all existed.

[Loudo]

Female turtles exist too. Yet as I mentioned before, Eastman and Laird deliberately chose to have the Turtles be all male. Of course, you can have a gay Turtle. You can have April O'Neil be a transsexual if you like. But you haven't made the case there's any reason to do so other than pandering.
Yes, female turtles exist, in fact we've had one (poorly conceived but that isn't because she was female). Anyway, I don't get what your point is. Just in case you've forgotten (and I don't see how that could be since I've repeated it more and more times) I'm not saying there has to be a gay turtle, I'm not even saying there should be one, what I'm saying is that there is no reason why there shouldn't be one. And if you don't agree with my statement, it's you who should bring reasons not me.
Reading that we can't have a gay turtle because that would mean his personality would change, or he would like Madonna, or he would automatically desire his brothers, or his brothers would feel rightly awkward around him... THIS is what I'm complaining about.

And for those who say tmnt doesn't deal with sexuality much (at least when it comes to the turtles), you may have been right once, but are you watching the new show? We've had two female characters so far, and both have already and immediately been made the object of explicit or implicit love interest by the turtles.
So you can't look at me with a straight face and say: "Raph shouldn't fall in love with Casey when he is introduced because this isn't a show about romance".

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Yes, female turtles exist, in fact we've had one (poorly conceived but that isn't because she was female). Anyway, I don't get what your point is. Just in case you've forgotten (and I don't see how that could be since I've repeated it more and more times) I'm not saying there has to be a gay turtle, I'm not even saying there should be one, what I'm saying is that there is no reason why there shouldn't be one. And if you don't agree with my statement, it's you who should bring reasons not me.
Reading that we can't have a gay turtle because that would mean his personality would change, or he would like Madonna, or he would automatically desire his brothers, or his brothers would feel rightly awkward around him... THIS is what I'm complaining about.

And for those who say tmnt doesn't deal with sexuality much (at least when it comes to the turtles), you may have been right once, but are you watching the new show? We've had two female characters so far, and both have already and immediately been made the object of explicit or implicit love interest by the turtles.
So you can't look at me with a straight face and say: "Raph shouldn't fall in love with Casey when he is introduced because this isn't a show about romance".

OK, I haven't seen the latest show. So romance is a big thing now? Of course, if you want to deviate too far from the Mirage origins, then I suppose anything can go.

[The Big Bad]

To "The Big Bad",

All I was ever trying to say...was that kids at a young age relate to other kids of the same gender more than of a different gender. We can see that in playgrounds when 70-80% of the kids stick with their own gender. So in these kids' minds, as limited as they are, if they see more and more female characters in a show, the boys will feel alienated since it "appears" to be catering to girls more than boys (the "sorority house" reply). (And culturally, kids are immediately informed about their gender differences.)

Of course it would be great to have depthful and plentiful female characters in a TMNT cartoon...as I said before, but you have to ask the question is do you think kids have the cognitive ability to transcend above those gender differences and see their character? Remember now this is the age of "cooties", can't even plan their day out, have temper tantrums, and the same stage of life were bullying is rampant.

If kids we're able to really look beyond the superficial more boys would appreciate "My Little Pony" and enjoy it with its good themes/morals. Furthermore, if kids were so mentally capable of appreciating diversity we wouldn't have the problem of bullying in our schools. So that's why I "underestimate" (as you say) children.

Let's not forgot the added pressure of pop culture telling those children what's "traditionally" male or female in terms of interests.

Therefore after all of this, it makes sense that a children's franchise would mostly have an all-female or all-male characters because its difficult sometimes to have an equal proportion of both boys and girls enjoying it (without being primarily comedic).
[...]


In the end, as much as we may want to help our children grow to appreciate diversity through TMNT or other kids' shows, the big question is...CAN kids mentally process that (Without directly instructing them like Sesame Street does.)? I mean the OT show constantly hinted about the problems of racism (with the Turtles and Splinter being ostracized/persecuted by society), but I never saw or heard a kid (KIDS only now) come away from that show consciously thinking about it and applying it to their own life and being against racism.

So then you believe that there's no way to change culture, and that children can't ever be taught that hey, women, people of color, and those belonging to the LGBT spectrum are people? Because really what that boils down to is a stance that children can't be taught anything at all. I mean, if we can teach them to respect other people, then why not extend that to all people, instead of just a privileged few?

To illustrate how diversity in shows *does* shape how children think, here's a thought experiment: I believe most of the posters here first came into contact with the TMNT as kids. Lets say, as a hypothetical, that whatever everyone's first incarnation of the property was, it did manage to display a good level of diversity--gender parity, respectfully handled gay characters (not necessarily the turtles)--the whole shebang. Would we still be having this discussion, now that we're all older? I venture to say that the answer would be "no". Just like most people accepted the current core cast of seven men and one woman, and an extended cast composed mostly of men--all heterosexual--as the norm, people would have accepted that more diverse cast, all else being equal.

But no: the TMNT ended up being its undiverse self, and so a good segment of the fans have become dead-set against seeing any change, seeing the inclusion of queer characters and people of color as "pandering". Funny how it's not called that when straight male characters are introduced.

In any case, this is what I mean when I say that yes, more diverse shows change attitudes. It doesn't have to be conscious, but it happens.

[plastroncafe]

I love how "pandering" has come to mean "adding anything that deviates from the straight male default."

To get back on topic:
I find the question that started this whole thread to be...well, wrong.
There's plenty of shipping to be found in the turtle franchise, and I'm not even talking about fanon. Heck, one need only look at the Mirage universe to see it.

I'm not bothered by someone's dislike of fanon shipping, to each their own. What I dislike is the condemnation/blatant bigotry that seems to follow in dislike's wake.

It's fine that Cyber Cube doesn't like shipping. It's perfectly reasonable for him to be squicked out by Turtlecest. We all have our boundaries, and those boundaries should be respected.

What is not okay is for people to demean others for their likes and/or dislikes. If you don't like something, bully for you. Let it go, and move on. Here, have a cookie for the walk.

[Jester]

If the show was "geared for" little girls than some would argue that the addition of a straight male character might be seen as "pandering." Almost seems like a "darned if you do, darned if you don't" scenario. If you don't have a diverse cast, you're condemned by certain groups for not having the requisite number of A and too many of B, but if you DO diversify the cast, those are just pandering "tokens".

If a character is well written it shouldn't matter if their a straight white guy or a green skinned transsexual, just so long as they seem to be real, dynamic, 3 dimensional characters.

[plastroncafe]

If the show was "geared for" little girls than some would argue that the addition of a straight male character might be seen as "pandering." Almost seems like a "darned if you do, darned if you don't" scenario. If you don't have a diverse cast, you're condemned by certain groups for not having the requisite number of A and too many of B, but if you DO diversify the cast, those are just pandering "tokens".

If a character is well written it shouldn't matter if their a straight white guy or a green skinned transsexual, just so long as they seem to be real, dynamic, 3 dimensional characters.

Your comparison assumes an equality that doesn't exist in American Popular Culture, Jester.

While well written characters should be the goal of any work, the fact remains that the majority of those "real, dynamic, three dimensional" characters we have today in children's media are white, straight, and male.

In spite of the fact that the vast majority of us are not.

[Jester]

Your comparison assumes an equality that doesn't exist in American Popular Culture, Jester.
But there's not as much of an inequality as you seem to think there is either, plastron.

[plastroncafe]

Certainly, not when compared to the past. But it's hardly an all inclusive utopia.

If it were then we wouldn't have people comparing all female driven stories to "Sorority Houses" and "Sweet Valley High."

Or all gay characters having Streisand records, or being hopelessly attracted to ANYONE of the same gender, including siblings.

We have an entire thread where someone is happy that there's no romance, because...why?
I can only assume that it's because romance takes away from the story, because...girls are icky? I don't know.

[CyberCubed]

Your comparison assumes an equality that doesn't exist in American Popular Culture, Jester.

While well written characters should be the goal of any work, the fact remains that the majority of those "real, dynamic, three dimensional" characters we have today in children's media are white, straight, and male.

In spite of the fact that the vast majority of us are not.

This reminds me of back in the 70's when they always threw a token black character into a show to avoid being called racist.

Now we have to have a token gay character in every series to avoid being homophobic. Instead of y'know, just not needing one for a story.

Every gen will have something like this where people cry foul over nothing.

[plastroncafe]

This reminds me of back in the 70's when they always threw a token black character into a show to avoid being called racist.

Now we have to have a token gay character in every series to avoid being homophobic. Instead of y'know, just not needing one for a story.

Every gen will have something like this where people cry foul over nothing.

A perfect example of the problem in action.
Black characters aren't props. Gay characters aren't props. Female characters aren't props.

We're not here to further your story, we're part of it. And we always have been.

The problem isn't that we're asking for inclusion, the problem is your assumption we have no right/reason to be there in the first place.

[Shredded]

But there's not as much of an inequality as you seem to think there is either, plastron.

My little pony has straight male characters to. Plenty of them, and none of them love interests as the show doesn't even go there (how refreshing for a girls show.) no one has complained thus far.

Just to give a list from the top of my head.

Spike
BigMac
Discord
King Sombra
The Flim Flam brothers
Snips and snails
Iron-will
Prince blue blood (brief love interest for Rarity, by the end of the episode she had developed a deep hatred of the stalion.)
Filthy-rich
Fancy-pants
And many more

it's okay if you are annoyed at me for bringing My little pony up all the time.. but.. it's just the only show geared toward girls I can come up with which does not fall into the pit of typical female stereo types I hate oh so much!
And yes I am an adult woman watching that show, I also watch new mutant ninja turtles.. what do people want from me?

Okay what else did I watch when I was a little girl geared towards me.
Totally Spies! half the villains were mad male scientist, and their "Leader trainer." figure was a man called Jerry.

Kim Possible.. tons of male main characters.
Ron Stoppable
Rofus
Dracon
Waid
The tweeps
the gym teacher
almost all the villains..

Even in shows, which are supposed girl shows for teenage girls, if you really make an honest head count there, there are usually more males than women, so it's a fall accusation you have there.

I admit in "Winx club." every single male introduced was a love interest, and so was they in "Bratz."
But here's the thing, I did not like that aspect of Winx club! I liked they were super powered fairies and could make pretty transformations and all of that, I did not like all the over empathasing on the boys as being only ever love interests for some-one.

It happens in shows geared towards girls, but that's not necesarily a good thing!
And even winx club had male characters coming in form of teachers and so on, whom wasn't love interests for any-body.

[ToTheNines]

We have an entire thread where someone is happy that there's no romance, because...why?
I can only assume that it's because romance takes away from the story, because...girls are icky? I don't know.

You're questioning the crux of a thread started by cybercubed. Just thought I'd let ya know.

[plastroncafe]

You're questioning the crux of a thread started by cybercubed. Just thought I'd let ya know.

Wisdom can come from the strangest of places...or so a commercial told me this one time.

[Jester]

I think I respect shows, like Law and Order: SVU who leave it vague and you never really wonder about a character's sexuality...and then in a logical story point they reveal it. It's not the thing that makes a character, like, "Oh, he's the 'gay' one" but rather, "Oh, that's the forensic psychologist, and he happens to be gay."

[plastroncafe]

I don't watch SVU, but I'm curious...are the straight characters equally as vague in terms of their sexuality? No opposite gender boyfriends/husbands wives/girlfriends are mentioned until it's relevant to the plot? Or is it just the queer characters who should remain vague until narrative necessity?

[RaphAndDonnie]

I love how "pandering" has come to mean "adding anything that deviates from the straight male default."

To get back on topic:
I find the question that started this whole thread to be...well, wrong.
There's plenty of shipping to be found in the turtle franchise, and I'm not even talking about fanon. Heck, one need only look at the Mirage universe to see it.

I'm not bothered by someone's dislike of fanon shipping, to each their own. What I dislike is the condemnation/blatant bigotry that seems to follow in dislike's wake.

It's fine that Cyber Cube doesn't like shipping. It's perfectly reasonable for him to be squicked out by Turtlecest. We all have our boundaries, and those boundaries should be respected.

What is not okay is for people to demean others for their likes and/or dislikes. If you don't like something, bully for you. Let it go, and move on. Here, have a cookie for the walk.

You pretty much summed up everything I wanted to post. There are ships that I like (not necessarily in the turtle-verse) and ships that I don't but I'm not not going to condemn anyone for it- that would just be stupid. Of course seeing it shoved in my face every time I'm on some other site (like Facebook for example) does get tired some after a while :roll:

[Jester]

To be fair the "queer" character I mentioned is a minor player, who isn't in every episode (as much as I like him. I wish he were used more.). Some character's relationships are more open than others. The secondary characters back-stories tend to be revealed when it's story essential. To be honest most all of the character's outside relationships are B plots material at most.

[Shredded]

To be fair the "queer" character I mentioned is a minor player, who isn't in every episode (as much as I like him. I wish he were used more.). Some character's relationships are more open than others. The secondary characters back-stories tend to be revealed when it's story essential. To be honest most all of the character's outside relationships are B plots material at most.

Well... screen writing one-o-one.

You never ever reveal information unless it's directly linked to the plot.

You only have precious little time to tell your story, even more so in a show where you only have twenty minutes episodes and every single episode must tell an entire mini-story.
Comic books also runs into similar problems as they often only have 26 pages for their entire mini story, which means less information can be handed out in a issue.

You only have that much time, and thus any information you reveal must be connected to the plot ahand.

So yeah, that's why. It's because these shows are actually written well!

[Bossa Nova]

I don't watch SVU, but I'm curious...are the straight characters equally as vague in terms of their sexuality? No opposite gender boyfriends/husbands wives/girlfriends are mentioned until it's relevant to the plot? Or is it just the queer characters who should remain vague until narrative necessity?

It's been awhile since I've seen SVU, but I'm pretty sure the female lead detective doesn't start dating til later in the series where it is relevant to the story. The male lead detective does has a wife and children, but they do play a pretty big role in his character development so they're mentioned earlier on. Also, I seem to remember another detective's son being gay, but I can't recall that it was left vague and secret (but at the same time, I'm not sure what you mean by narrative necessary, if the psychologist had said upfront that he was gay for absolutely no reason, wouldn't that have felt equally forced, like shoving in the audience that they have a gay character even though there's no real reason we need to know that right now? I remember him only bringing it up because it did effect the plot somehow and it felt natural, not like he wanted his friends to suddenly have this huge reveal about him or anything). I'm not really sure if that answers anything, just saw SVU and since I used to love that show thought I'd drop my two cents. Also to clear my mind of this ridiculous thread for awhile and some of the truly bigoted statements rolling around.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

A perfect example of the problem in action.
Black characters aren't props. Gay characters aren't props. Female characters aren't props.

We're not here to further your story, we're part of it. And we always have been.

The problem isn't that we're asking for inclusion, the problem is your assumption we have no right/reason to be there in the first place.

If you're doing a story about a pygmy tribe, there is no reason to include any tall people.

[Shredded]

If you're doing a story about a pygmy tribe, there is no reason to include any tall people.

Beside, these TMNT shows are filled with asien people any-way!

So that eliminates the race issue X)

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

This reminds me of back in the 70's when they always threw a token black character into a show to avoid being called racist.



The 1987 TMNT show used this several times when it came to gangs, showing both white and black gang members.

[Loudo]

Black characters aren't props. Gay characters aren't props. Female characters aren't props.

We're not here to further your story, we're part of it. And we always have been.

The problem isn't that we're asking for inclusion, the problem is your assumption we have no right/reason to be there in the first place.
This is what I call ability to synthesize. Bravo. :)

If you're doing a story about a pygmy tribe, there is no reason to include any tall people.
Considering TMNT is set in one of the most densely populated and diverse city on the entire planet, I'm not sure how this comparison applies.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

And sadly, America aren't as far as Britten, whom constantly stuff gays into the background of their Doctor who episodes.. just because they can.
John Watson has a lesbian sister now, why? ... just because.

Call it bigotry if you like, but I find the idea of stuffing gays (or African-Americans, or anyone else) into the story just for the sake of "diversity" rather childish. In the Doctor Who that I've seen, romance was rarely even covered, save for TARDIS companions leaving because of it (Jo Grant and Leela for example).

For the record, I follow a webcomic whose author is openly gay. And he has only two male homosexual characters in it (and no lesbians). The other characters who have romances are all straight male/female. Which ought to tell you something.

Going back to the original topic, why does romance and sexuality play so little part in the TMNT franchise, or at least did so in the old days? Because the show was aimed at children too young to have romantic interests. When I was a schoolboy, it was "boy germs/girl germs". Not until high school did I see boys and girls take a romantic interest in one another.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Call it bigotry if you like, but I find the idea of stuffing gays (or African-Americans, or anyone else) into the story just for the sake of "diversity" rather childish. In the Doctor Who that I've seen, romance was rarely even covered, save for TARDIS companions leaving because of it (Jo Grant and Leela for example).

For the record, I follow a webcomic whose author is openly gay. And he has only two male homosexual characters in it (and no lesbians). The other characters who have romances are all straight male/female. Which ought to tell you something.

Going back to the original topic, why does romance and sexuality play so little part in the TMNT franchise, or at least did so in the old days? Because the show was aimed at children too young to have romantic interests. When I was a schoolboy, it was "boy germs/girl germs". Not until high school did I see boys and girls take a romantic interest in one another.

I liked the Donatello-Irma, Michelangelo-Kala/Buffy Shellhammer, Raphael-Ninjara clushes, as long as they stayed on a way for children, mostly comedy, and not was the major plot. Raphael-Ninjara was deeper, but still for children (actually Irma's humor was much more adult like in a sex-comedy).

[plastroncafe]

If you're doing a story about a pygmy tribe, there is no reason to include any tall people.

You're right, what was I thinking. There aren't any gay people in New York City. Nor women. Or black people. How foolish of me.

Beside, these TMNT shows are filled with asien people any-way!

So that eliminates the race issue X)

Yeah, as villains. And let's not forget the only major "good guy" character of color is changed into a rat. Because America hasn't had a problem with that in the past at all...

Call it bigotry if you like, but I find the idea of stuffing gays (or African-Americans, or anyone else) into the story just for the sake of "diversity" rather childish. In the Doctor Who that I've seen, romance was rarely even covered, save for TARDIS companions leaving because of it (Jo Grant and Leela for example).


Really?
Maybe you need to see more. Rose and 9/10 was nothing but a love story. Also Madam du Pompadour. And Captain Jack Harkness? There's a lot of romantic storylines in Doctor Who, and they're a heck of a lot more diverse than most of mainstream American pop culture.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

You're right, what was I thinking. There aren't any gay people in New York City. Nor women. Or black people. How foolish of me.



Yeah, as villains. And let's not forget the only major "good guy" character of color is changed into a rat. Because America hasn't had a problem with that in the past at all...



Really?
Maybe you need to see more. Rose and 9/10 was nothing but a love story. Also Madam du Pompadour. And Captain Jack Harkness? There's a lot of romantic storylines in Doctor Who, and they're a heck of a lot more diverse than most of mainstream American pop culture.
Guess Doctor Who is different nowadays. But then, in 1963 it was a more child-oriented show about an alien who travels to different places and times and we see the past.

But the TMNT series does have women, blacks (Bebop in the OT, Baxter Stockman in Mirage)...well, is Vernon Fenwick supposed to be gay?

Racism in fact is a big problem in Asia as well. Japanese tend to dislike other Asians, and other Asians dislike Japanese even now. And after the Vietnam War, the Vietnamese started persecuting their ethnic Chinese, part of the reason it provoked a brief but brutal invasion from China itself.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Guess Doctor Who
Racism in fact is a big problem in Asia as well. Japanese tend to dislike other Asians, and other Asians dislike Japanese even now. And after the Vietnam War, the Vietnamese started persecuting their ethnic Chinese, part of the reason it provoked a brief but brutal invasion from China itself.

"Splinter No More" and "Shredderville" are the best racism-centered episodes. I Also like how Shredder, being from Japan, talks in the "Turtle Terminator" about being reduced to eat Chinese food.

[jaymq]

I remember Greg Weisman wanted Lexington to be gay in Gargoyles. Makes no sense as previous episodes showed him drooling over female Gargoyles.

Apparently self-discovery doesn't exist and everyone knows what they are the second they're hit puberty.

[CyberCubed]

Apparently self-discovery doesn't exist and everyone knows what they are the second they're hit puberty.

Lexington was an adult Gargoyle though.

[Shredded]

Yeah, as villains. And let's not forget the only major "good guy" character of color is changed into a rat. Because America hasn't had a problem with that in the past at all...



Ah ah, No! all characters including villains count when you talk diversity! In fact, having a black guy play a vital part as a villain is a good thing, because then he is a character whom just happens to be black.
There's nothing worse than a token "black guy." or "Girl." to be there just to be there because. They need to have a character that carries a function, and villains does that!

And that did all-ready happen! Stockman! it even happened twice, now we have Xever to!... all though he is a fish mutant now..

And it's not just the villains whom are asien.

If we take the 2k3 show, boy is there a load of asien good guys there!

There's Hamato Yoshi when we see him in flash backs, The ancient one, the high ninja tribunals, those warriors they fought with in that season. Karai is some-times kind of an anti-hero.

And don't ask me why.. but I always imagined that if the turtles were human, Leonardo would be asien in appearence...
And Raph would be latino, Mikey would be ginger and Donatello just ordinary western looking.. okay that's beside the point, they are turtles!

Then there is the newest 2k12 show. Where thus far.. the only good guys we actually have seen is.
The turtles, Splinter, April, Aprils dad, Leatherhead and.. Miyasaki I guess.. you know the noodle guy.

The turtles are turtles (though actually with a sort of more asien look to them than usual, in the still pictures their eyes is always a little askew as if they are asien, a nice little touch.)
Splinter whom is Japanes, leatherhead is an aligator.
April has always been a western looking new-yorker, so her dad would kind of be the same thing.
And Miyasaki is.. Asien.

So if we are going to do a head-count here we have two white people among our heroes and.. that's it.

Among our villains we have two, Bradford and Rockwell.... and neither of those are ordinary white people any-more any-ways. And I guess we have Snake-weed and Spiderbite to all though.. yeah, really doesn't matter what race they started out to be at this point.
The purple dragons looks like a group made out of diversity of both black, latino and asien looking people, so that's pretty neat.

So erhm.. no. No this new turtle show thus far has no problem in being a "white mans show."

[BubblyShell22]

Uh, the noodle guy's name is Murakami, and you forgot about Falco who's also white. And let's not forget Carlos Chiang O'Brien Gambe who is a mix of different races if his name is anything to go by.

And as for having gay people in fan fiction, I don't see the problem with it. It's not pandering, it's just a what if scenario that people want to expand on. Naturally, they aren't going to explore the idea in a kids show because that would make a lot of conservatives get angry and refuse to let their children watch the show. So, that's why we have fan fiction. It's there to explore different areas, and if someone wants to write about one of the Turtles being gay, they can. It doesn't automatically mean they're going to fall in love with their brother or anything. Anyone can create an OC that the Turtle in question could fall in love with.

I'm surprised people aren't getting mad about the Turtles being straight, pairing with a female human and reproducing with them. Personally, I don't see how it's possible, but stuff like that is out there. It may not be my cup of tea in certain instances, but I'm not being forced to read it, so I don't.

Same goes with Turtlecest. I don't see it happening without some sort of internal conflict going on as to why they would have these feelings and whether said feelings aren't wrong. But it's out there, and if you don't like it, don't read it. That's all there is to it.

[Jester]

What does it say about the state of "American Popular Culture" that voice actors like Kevin Michael Richardson and James Avery, both large black men, can play two athletically built Asian men? Or, since I'm watching Gargoyles, Cree Summer voicing a white cyborg chick with a weird attraction to machines?

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Uh, the noodle guy's name is Murakami, and you forgot about Falco who's also white. And let's not forget Carlos Chiang O'Brien Gambe who is a mix of different races if his name is anything to go by.

And as for having gay people in fan fiction, I don't see the problem with it. It's not pandering, it's just a what if scenario that people want to expand on. Naturally, they aren't going to explore the idea in a kids show because that would make a lot of conservatives get angry and refuse to let their children watch the show. So, that's why we have fan fiction. It's there to explore different areas, and if someone wants to write about one of the Turtles being gay, they can. It doesn't automatically mean they're going to fall in love with their brother or anything. Anyone can create an OC that the Turtle in question could fall in love with.

I'm surprised people aren't getting mad about the Turtles being straight, pairing with a female human and reproducing with them. Personally, I don't see how it's possible, but stuff like that is out there. It may not be my cup of tea in certain instances, but I'm not being forced to read it, so I don't.

Same goes with Turtlecest. I don't see it happening without some sort of internal conflict going on as to why they would have these feelings and whether said feelings aren't wrong. But it's out there, and if you don't like it, don't read it. That's all there is to it.

Well, fan fiction is fan fiction. Ever heard of Rule 34? (If it exists, there's porn of it.) There's stuff out there that would make even the strongest people here shudder.

As for sexuality in a kid's show, I don't think most people would consider it appropriate, and not just the conservatives.

[Candy Kappa]

oooh, this thread is a fun read.

Guess Doctor Who is different nowadays. But then, in 1963 it was a more child-oriented show about an alien who travels to different places and times and we see the past.

Even the first Doctor could get his groove on, the Aztec episodes for example. And he was a father once.

[Loudo]

As for sexuality in a kid's show, I don't think most people would consider it appropriate, and not just the conservatives.
Of course you can't have sex scenes in a kids show. That doesn't mean you can't show relationships where it's implied sex is consumed.

Having gay characters in a kids show is appropriate. You deal with them the same way you deal with straight ones. And the same way you do in real life, actually. I'm sure you know the sexual orientation of most of your friends without watching them have sex.

[CyberCubed]

Have there ever been any gay characters in cartoons that aren't anime? And I mean confirmed, not fanfiction wishes.

[ToTheNines]

Captain Sawyer from Superman: TAS.

[Blossombrooks]

Pleakley from Lilo and Stitch, it wasn't 'confirmed' as in labeled (why would you in a kids show? Kids don't need labels) but yeah as the series and the films after that developed it was just accepted and obvious.

[ToTheNines]

I think Mikey's gay in the Nicktoon.

[RaphAndDonnie]

Have there ever been any gay characters in cartoons that aren't anime? And I mean confirmed, not fanfiction wishes.

In the short lived Cartoon Network cartoon "Time Squad" it was HEAVILY implied that Larry 3000 was gay. So it was practically confirmed.

[Loudo]

Have there ever been any gay characters in cartoons that aren't anime? And I mean confirmed, not fanfiction wishes.
I'm assuming you mean kids cartoons only? Because shows like The Simpsons, Family Guy and American Dad are cartoons and there are a lot of gay characters there.

[CyberCubed]

Yes kids shows. All those comedies are aimed at adults.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Of course you can't have sex scenes in a kids show. That doesn't mean you can't show relationships where it's implied sex is consumed.

Having gay characters in a kids show is appropriate. You deal with them the same way you deal with straight ones. And the same way you do in real life, actually. I'm sure you know the sexual orientation of most of your friends without watching them have sex.

The only way I'd know if anyone were homosexual is if they said as such.

As for kid's shows, try explaining the term "gay" to someone who doesn't know what sex is.

[Coola Yagami]

Not really. Just say gay is boys that like boys or girls that like girls. I mean, boys sometimes like girls, and don't know what sex is yet. They just start thinking they're pretty but don't know about sex yet.

[Vivi]

This thread...has kind of become a parody of itself.

[The Big Bad]

The only way I'd know if anyone were homosexual is if they said as such.

As for kid's shows, try explaining the term "gay" to someone who doesn't know what sex is.

Oh, dear. You've just erased every child of a gay couple from existence.

In any case, lemme give it a shot. "Sometimes, sonny jim, two people like each other very much, and decide that they want to spend time together--sometimes even marrying one another and starting families. Sometimes it one boy and one girl, other times it's one boy and another boy, and sometimes it's two girls; these last two are known, for historical reasons, as gays and lesbians. All of these are equally valid and worthy of respect."

Wow. I really thought that'd be harder. [/sarcasm]

[Jester]

This thread...has kind of become a parody of itself.So much this....

[miru]

I am a shipper myself.

RaphXNinjara

LeoXVenus

DonXApril

MikeXLotus

CaseyXKarai

MondoXMona

LeatherheadXAlopex

And not just TMNT: I'm also a Sonic shipper.

SonicXBlaze mainly.

[CyberCubed]

This thread...has kind of become a parody of itself.

Yeah, not sure why this thread ended up like this.

I originally made it simply to talk about the lack of romance or official pairings in the TMNT franchise besides April/Casey.

How this turned into a thread about feminism, discrimination, racism and about gay roles in TV shows I don't quite understand.

[Jester]

I am a shipper myself.
RaphXNinjara
LeoXVenus
DonXApril
MikeXLotus
CaseyXKarai
MondoXMona
LeatherheadXAlopex

And not just TMNT: I'm also a Sonic shipper. SonicXBlaze mainly.
All I can think as a response to that is a resounding, "No duh!"

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Oh, dear. You've just erased every child of a gay couple from existence.

In any case, lemme give it a shot. "Sometimes, sonny jim, two people like each other very much, and decide that they want to spend time together--sometimes even marrying one another and starting families. Sometimes it one boy and one girl, other times it's one boy and another boy, and sometimes it's two girls; these last two are known, for historical reasons, as gays and lesbians. All of these are equally valid and worthy of respect."

Wow. I really thought that'd be harder. [/sarcasm]

I still doubt "sonny jim" would truly understand the concept of "gay" as a small child.

[Candy Kappa]

I don't mind romance moment in TMNT, it is a part of life (no matter what way you swing) Casey Jones love life is very interesting to read in the Mirage universe, April, Gabrielle and adopting Shadow. Bittersweet and all that jazz.

Since it is canon I wish we could see more of Leo and Radical before she was killed off like a background character, and see a conclusion of Mikey and Regenta story.

But I hope things are kept, well tragic/problematic. At least up until you can't tell more "we are the only of our species" type of stories, and then maybe branch out. different species haven't exactly stopped others to involve in romantic relationships.

Shipping is fine, it's just people having fun and some produce some mighty fine art.

I still doubt "sonny jim" would truly understand the concept of "gay" as a small child.

kids aren't as stupid as some might think, they can think for them selves and can be very perceptive

LeatherheadXAlopex.

lol wut :P

How this turned into a thread about feminism, discrimination, racism and about gay roles in TV shows I don't quite understand.

Shouldn't be too surprised, this is the Technodrome forums. :D

on a side note. captain jack Harkness is awesome, best man-slut character ever.

[Shredded]

Uh, the noodle guy's name is Murakami, and you forgot about Falco who's also white. And let's not forget Carlos Chiang O'Brien Gambe who is a mix of different races if his name is anything to go by.


Ah.. I did mean Falco not Rockwell.. I shoulnd't write comments as late as I did (time difference.)

To be fair we have no idea what Rockwell looks like, we never ever saw a picture for him. So go ahead, make him Indian, it's just as plausible as all other scenarios.


Point still stands races are presented in kind of all tmnt shows, so that argument is invalid.

My point just is, when a show actually do some-thing like you would want, in regard to gender roles, race presentation or representations of sexuality. Don't look down on it.

If I really want to make a head-count in details for Avatar the last airbender, there are still more male characters than female characters present. And I can elect to be angry about that, or just be very very thankful that they actually decided to present a good chunk of diversed female characters into this fantasy adventure show, which is not about romance, but about the awesome adventure and all the cool fight stuff.

If they suddenly decided to put in a clue that the new Doctor Stockman might be gay, or if Mikeys meeting with Bradford actually was mikey having a little chrush (weird.) okay.. so? I really don't care.

And I have no idea why, but suddenly the idea of Doctor Stockman actually being gay both in the 2k3 show and the 2k12 makes sense to me..
Why the hell does that make sense to me? my own thought process eludes me.

[Loudo]

The only way I'd know if anyone were homosexual is if they said as such.

As for kid's shows, try explaining the term "gay" to someone who doesn't know what sex is.
Or, you know, they could introduce you to their boyfriend/girlfriend. Or tell you they like a boy/girl.
You don't need to call a character "gay" to make them gay. Just show us they are gay. Don drools over April and no one has any problem defining him straight, yet he's never been called "straight" in the series.
This is how kids learn what homosexuality is. Once they know what it is, you can teach them how it is called.

How this turned into a thread about feminism, discrimination, racism and about gay roles in TV shows I don't quite understand.
Why are you surprised? If someone writes misogynist, discriminating, racist or homophobic posts, there will be inevitably someone else who will point that out.

[The Big Bad]

To elaborate on what Loudo has said: whether accurately or not, romance and shipping are considered to be domains of fandom dominated by women. Shipping of non-canon couples is also currently the only way for people to actually see any same-sex romances in the TMNT-verses. However problematic some of its underpinings might be, they is also, for the most part, harmless--they are just the way a subset of fans have chosen to interact with a story they love. Even Miru, who I understand can be a bit overzealous when it comes to expressing hir preference for particular couples, is hurting no one by doing so--not like others have here by dehumanizing gay people and women--some of which read this very board and make significant contributions to it every day.

And yet, despite being for the most part harmless--except when discussion escalates into hurtful comments and actions, which can happen with every sort of discussion--shipping and romance have been singled out as a particular blight on a fandom, and dismissed as nonsense. Given that they are, again, seen as feminine or even girly, the underlying message is that "girly" interactions are invalid, while more allegedly male interactions are reinforced as the acceptable norm.

And that's bull. And some of us are attempting to call out the sexist and homophobic attitudes that underpin comments like the original post. Because really, people out there like stories where Karai and April kiss? SO WHAT?! You're perfectly free to not like it, but that doesn't make it bad, or worthy of condemnation, and it has no power to ruin one's experience unless one allows it to. Saying that its a bad thing that ruins the fandom--and that those who indulge are silly, trivial, or simply bad fans for doing so--suggests not negative things about them, but about the people making the claim: if people liking romance ruins things for a person, then the problem is that person's insecurity, not their preferences.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

To elaborate on what Loudo has said: whether accurately or not, romance and shipping are considered to be domains of fandom dominated by women. Shipping of non-canon couples is also currently the only way for people to actually see any same-sex romances in the TMNT-verses. However problematic some of its underpinings might be, they is also, for the most part, harmless--they are just the way a subset of fans have chosen to interact with a story they love. Even Miru, who I understand can be a bit overzealous when it comes to expressing hir preference for particular couples, is hurting no one by doing so--not like others have here by dehumanizing gay people and women--some of which read this very board and make significant contributions to it every day.

And yet, despite being for the most part harmless--except when discussion escalates into hurtful comments and actions, which can happen with every sort of discussion--shipping and romance have been singled out as a particular blight on a fandom, and dismissed as nonsense. Given that they are, again, seen as feminine or even girly, the underlying message is that "girly" interactions are invalid, while more allegedly male interactions are reinforced as the acceptable norm.

And that's bull. And some of us are attempting to call out the sexist and homophobic attitudes that underpin comments like the original post. Because really, people out there like stories where Karai and April kiss? SO WHAT?! You're perfectly free to not like it, but that doesn't make it bad, or worthy of condemnation, and it has no power to ruin one's experience unless one allows it to. Saying that its a bad thing that ruins the fandom--and that those who indulge are silly, trivial, or simply bad fans for doing so--suggests not negative things about them, but about the people making the claim: if people liking romance ruins things for a person, then the problem is that person's insecurity, not their preferences.

Then we cannot legitimately object to Turtlecest, can we? Because that's...bigotry!

[Candy Kappa]

Comparing same-sex romance to incest, stay classy.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Comparing same-sex romance to incest, stay classy.

Inbreeding is very common in the animal world, for the record. Ask any zoologist or breeder.

And the claim that you must be a bigot to object to the idea of a gay Turtle is laughable. Then let's call Eastman and Laird misogynistic for the fact that they wouldn't allow and female Turtles in the TMNT series.

[The Big Bad]

Then we cannot legitimately object to Turtlecest, can we? Because that's...bigotry!

Ah, but people aren't just saying: "I, personally, don't like the idea of gay turtles". That, I feel, would be more or less fine, since it's purely in the realm of personal preference--for example, my ideal turtles are asexual, because I don't see how their turtle biologies would allow them to be physically attracted to anything. However, what people here have been saying is "the concept of gay turtles is wrong and icky and disgusting, and people who like it deserve shunning" which yeah, all sorts of bigoted. I ask: if one accepts that the turtles are sexual--which has been the case to varying degrees in several incarnations--then just what the heck is the problem with one of them being gay? And no, "I don't like it" does not actually constitute an actual problem with the concept.

And yes, although I didn't mention it originally--nice strawmanning, by the way--this does extend to turtle-cest. Again, these are fictional characters, and those who find the idea appealing--for reasons I have yet to fathom and do not share, but then again, I don't need to--from what I've seen, do not labor under the impression that it makes actual, real life, nonconsensual incest acceptable, or that anybody else has to like it. Again, what's wrong with having the common courtesy of letting them enjoy the TMNT the way they want to? How does their existence hurt you?

[Jephael]

I originally made it simply to talk about the lack of romance or official pairings in the TMNT franchise besides April/Casey.

How this turned into a thread about feminism, discrimination, racism and about gay roles in TV shows I don't quite understand.

You left out fan fiction, dude. Seriously, I dunno why you can't ever acknowledge FAN FICTION. That friggin' irks me for some odd reason!

[Candy Kappa]

You left out fan fiction, dude. Seriously, I dunno why you can't ever acknowledge FAN FICTION. That friggin' irks me for some odd reason!

because it is not canon?

[Jephael]

because it is not canon?

So what if it's not canon? Fan fiction can still be just as entertaining. Besides it's like what Bart Simpson once said: None of this stuff really happened.

[BubblyShell22]

Well, fan fiction is fan fiction. Ever heard of Rule 34? (If it exists, there's porn of it.) There's stuff out there that would make even the strongest people here shudder.

As for sexuality in a kid's show, I don't think most people would consider it appropriate, and not just the conservatives.

No, I haven't heard of that rule at all, and frankly, it makes no sense.

And I'm not talking about sexuality in general. I was talking about having a gay character openly in a kids show, not sex itself. You really need to read my post more carefully.

[CyberCubed]

Come to think of it, perhaps Muckman and Joe eyeball were gay. Sure Joe had a crush on Irma, but the two seemed way too close for regular garbagemen. Joe eyeball even had no problem clinging to Muckman's back.

[plastroncafe]

How this turned into a thread about feminism, discrimination, racism and about gay roles in TV shows I don't quite understand.

It's called "calling people out for having crap opinions."


And the claim that you must be a bigot to object to the idea of a gay Turtle is laughable.

You are absolutely correct, and who ever has suggested such a thing should be laughed at.
As you're the only one who has, please hold still while we laugh at you.

Then let's call Eastman and Laird misogynistic for the fact that they wouldn't allow and female Turtles in the TMNT series.

Um...they did. Her name is Venus.

Your strawmen are looking a little ragged there, big guy.

[Jephael]

Come to think of it, perhaps Muckman and Joe eyeball were gay. Sure Joe had a crush on Irma, but the two seemed way too close for regular garbagemen. Joe eyeball even had no problem clinging to Muckman's back.

Wow, that's just reaching. By that logic, Rocksteady and Bebop were secretly engaged.

[CyberCubed]

Wow, that's just reaching. By that logic, Rocksteady and Bebop were secretly engaged.

There's a difference between being good friends though and being much closer.

Bebop and Rocksteady always gave you the buddy vibe, Muckman and Joe seemed like they could be more than friends or co-workers.

The only other potentially gay character I could think of was Prof. Sopho.

[Loudo]

Since we're talking about turtlecest, I think it is a normal phenomenon in the fandom. I mean, in any fandom most of the shipping fanworks are going to be about the main characters. That is because they are the characters most of the fans love and care about.
The main characters in TMNT happen to be four brothers (and, to a lesser extent, a woman), so that is what the shippers are going to work the most with.

And, considering they're the only members of their species, it doesn't even come out as forced. Unless the writers are genereous enough to make the turtles meet a human/mutant who likes them for what they are, they don't have many options. Even in small human tribes, marriage among close relatives isn't necessarily uncommon.

Regarding the moral implications I think incest, like any form of sex, is only wrong when it is non-consensual (in a broad sense; a parent abusing their position is clearly still a form of violence). What causes no harm, can't be wrong.

Now, unlike the concept of gay turtles, which I would personally enjoy seeing in canon, I like turtlecest to be confined to fanworks only (despite the fact I read and wrote turtlecest). For a simple reason: I wouldn't like the lasting changes that it would bring to the turtles' group dynamics. In a fanfiction you can write about what you want and those events will be confined to that work. You can make two turtles fall in love, a good character turn evil, a main character die, and then forget about it and restart from the beginning. In canon, everything that happens really happened.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

It's called "calling people out for having crap opinions."



You are absolutely correct, and who ever has suggested such a thing should be laughed at.
As you're the only one who has, please hold still while we laugh at you.



Um...they did. Her name is Venus.

Your strawmen are looking a little ragged there, big guy.

Not half as ragged as your victim mentality. Oh, how miserable you are because you're a female and homosexual to boot. Like others don't suffer misery too? Tell that to people who are say, too tall or too short. Tell that to people who are blind, deaf, or otherwise handicapped. Tell that to people who have bad health. Maybe your opinions aren't very well-informed as you thought. But people like you don't like being informed how wrong they are. For the record, read some of the other posts. I'm not "the only one."

I've heard of Venus, but I assumed she wasn't a Turtle. I did remember seeing in a Mirage comic a comment by Eastman himself that there would be no female Turtles. I don't remember the issue but I can look it up.

[Shredded]

I've heard of Venus, but I assumed she wasn't a Turtle. I did remember seeing in a Mirage comic a comment by Eastman himself that there would be no female Turtles. I don't remember the issue but I can look it up.

Venus was a character concieved for the short lived life action TV show.

"TMNT the next mutation."

The show was very short lived, and Venus as a character very poorly recieved as well as the show in genneral.

She was supposed to have been a fifth turtle that was hit by the ooze along-side with the others but got sepperated, only to be picked up by a different ninja master whom brought her back to Japan and turned her into a konuich with a speciality in the mystic arts and in the art of sensing stuff.

In the beginning of the show, Venus's sensei in Japan was killed off and she re-united with the other turtles.

People seem to either hate or love this character. My honest opinion?

Character-wise.. she's fine! she's a different character, whom is about all the mystism side of the ninja stuff, which gives her a unqie personality and a natural addition, they actually manages it so her thing doesn't over-shadow Splinter, whom used to be the "I can do mystic stuff." guy. He still seems to be the mature sensei father figure here, while she is a foreigner needing to adjust.
Her character is fine, has personality, has personality flaws (which you need i a multi dimensional character.) and actually has multi dimensions.

How-ever! What really sucks about her addition is that the moment she enters, it's obvious all of the four original turtles just wants to sleep with her, they don't even cover it up.

They even have a whole conversations about. "We are not actually brothers and sister, we were just picked up in a shop, so it's oki for us to have a crush on you."

And the turtles just spend all of their time trying to either impress her, or being disgusting teen guys so she can wrinkle her nose at them. And when her present deminish's their characters. That's a terrible thing! They have characters beyond that! they are not that shallow or dumb, I exspect better from the turtles.

And what is more.. that life-action show has no April! So what is the point of adding a new female of it is for the cost of the usual female? You still only have one, you solved no problem.

And where-as April carries an actual important function of beings the turtles main link to the real world, Venus had no functions Splinter couldn't have full-filled. Other than being all four turtles crush on the same time. so erh..

The character was fine! the execution of introducing her and having the other turtles react to her, royaly sucked!

Some-times it's not just about adding diversed characters.. it's never about just adding diversed characters. It's really also all about how you execute it and if you execute it probably!
She could have been a welcome addition to the turtles, had she been executed way better and hadn't been a new perma cast member, but maybe.. some-one they communicated with from Japan and shows up ones or twice? actually to share a scene with April???

Her design is pretty neat though, I actually really like it.

http://www.beyondhollywood.com/uploads/2012/03/TMNT-Venus-de-Milo.jpg

[plastroncafe]

You're so cute when you're attempting to be dismissive, Type 97 Chi-ha .
Not only am I not a homosexual, but I also don't compete in the oppression Olympics. But yours was a valiant effort none the less.

Good show!

[snake]

I am a shipper myself.

RaphXNinjara

LeoXVenus

DonXApril

MikeXLotus

CaseyXKarai

MondoXMona

LeatherheadXAlopex

And not just TMNT: I'm also a Sonic shipper.

SonicXBlaze mainly.

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
Typical miru

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

You're so cute when you're attempting to be dismissive, Type 97 Chi-ha .
Not only am I not a homosexual, but I also don't compete in the oppression Olympics. But yours was a valiant effort none the less.

Good show!

But you certainly did talk about "crap opinions" and imply I was a bigot for not liking the idea of a gay Turtle in a children's cartoon. What did you expect?

The TMNT series is not a morality play. It doesn't preach about racism or other evils, and the episodes don't end with the bad guys chastened and remorseful. Just as there are good and evil Asians in the series, there are good and evil homosexuals in the world. But there are already plenty of stories about homosexuals on television and everywhere else. Why bother adding it to TMNT, if it wasn't in the original Mirage series?