Karai=Miwa?

[Ninjawolf]

So this has been a common theory but I don't think there's a thread for this... (if there sorry.)

So do you guys think Karai is Miwa? Here is what I think could be evidence....

-Karai looks to be 17-18... Miwa is probably about the same age depending how lomg it was between the Fire and the mutation.

- Karai calls Shredder 'Father' an old leaked bio stated that Shredder had an adopted daughter named Miwa...

- Shredder made a point in the latest episode about Splinter/Hamato doing something to them both... what Hamato did was not specified but why else would he want Karai to hate a man she never met unless he's trying to turn her against her biological father?

So what do you guys think?

[CyberCubed]

She's obviously Miwa.

They're not going to introduce ANOTHER 16-year old Japanese ninja girl after Karai.

[Ninjawolf]

She's obviously Miwa.

They're not going to introduce ANOTHER 16-year old Japanese ninja girl after Karai.

While it is obvious and makes A LOT of sense we can still talk about it... I wonder what Oroku has been telling her about Hamato

[NinjaPug]

I guess we should assume Saki told Miwa/Karai that he was married to Tang Shen and that Yoshi was responsible for the fire that killed her mother.

[Irishmile]

He probably told her splinter killed her mother..... And in the 80s never rewinded rented videotapes.

[Jester]

And in the 80s never rewinded rented videotapes.
Heartless monster!

[snake]

She's obviously Miwa.

They're not going to introduce ANOTHER 16-year old Japanese ninja girl after Karai.

.......we could have 3
Miwa, karai, and pimiko:lol:

[BabyTurtles]

I guess we should assume Saki told Miwa/Karai that he was married to Tang Shen and that Yoshi was responsible for the fire that killed her mother.

if you think about his crush on her and what he did to splinter it's really twisted :ohwell:

[ToTheNines]

.......we could have 3
Miwa, karai, and pimiko:lol:

That would actually be really really cool.

[CyberCubed]

I'd rather see Lotus Blossom return.

[pannoni1]

It remains a mystery whether the presumed Karai is Karai herself, or is still somewhere else, most likely in Japan controlling that regions' Foot and that Shredder is using Miwa to believe that he is her father. But if Splinter discovers that Karai was formally Miwa, it may persuade him to follow Leonardo in that Shredder is just using Miwa/Karai to conquer the world by giving her special powers.

[Jester]

It remains a mystery whether the presumed Karai is Karai herself, or is still somewhere else, most likely in Japan controlling that regions' Foot and that Shredder is using Miwa to believe that he is her father. But if Splinter discovers that Karai was formally Miwa, it may persuade him to follow Leonardo in that Shredder is just using Miwa/Karai to conquer the world by giving her special powers.
What?

Seriously I didn't understand most of that.

[Shark_Blade]

I thought Karai is Miwa as well.

But who is her real biological father is yet to be certain. She might truly be Yoshi's daughter.

Or she could be Shredder's daughter but then Tang Shen flee from him and married Yoshi later, telling him it is their daughter. Kinda like Kill Bill movies where Beatrix flee from Bill, all for the betterment of her unborn child.

[NinjaMan]

I thought Karai is Miwa as well.

But who is her real biological father is yet to be certain. She might truly be Yoshi's daughter.

Or she could be Shredder's daughter but then Tang Shen flee from him and married Yoshi later, telling him it is their daughter. Kinda like Kill Bill movies where Beatrix flee from Bill, all for the betterment of her unborn child.

That'd be one heck of a twist.

[Jester]

It's also the kind of twist they wouldn't put in a kid's show....

[Shark_Blade]

Anything is possible. The amount of violence in TMNT is abundant compared to other toons, so it's not just a "kids show" per say. So a twist like that wouldn't surprise me.

E.g. of violence: Like how Raph shattered Snakeweed into smithereens? That surprised me how violent his "death" was. And in 2K3, how Leo decapitated Shredder? Pure awesomeness.

These shows are not merely kiddie stuff imo. And I like it.

[Cure]

so it's not just a "kids show" per say.

Yes, it is. You're in denial.

[Shark_Blade]

**** off. It's not normal kids show. ;)

[Jester]

**** off. It's not normal kids show. ;)
Hate to agree with him, but how exactly is it not? Doesn't the thing get a Y7? Is it only "not a normal kid's show" because you (and the rest of us adults) like it?

[Shark_Blade]

Maybe. If anything it's above average kids show, leaning towards M content imo.

Lets get back on topic about Miwa. What do your think about the relation with Karai?

[Shredded]

Karai is Miwa, I suspected that all the way from Episode one, long before Karai had been introduced, and every-thing happening since then just seemed to confirm my suspecions further and further.


If we look at the first episode only. "The Turtles rising."
What made me suspect right there was very simply, Splinter telling he had a wife and daughter. And they both died.

Okay, I can see how the wife is an important plot point here, but why adding the daughter? Teng-shen in herself would be a strong enough point, you don't need any-thing else. Splinter never had a daughter before in any other incarnation, neither did Hamato Yoshi, and the only thing it really adds is more grusome.

Unless.. they intend to use her later. Which means she is still alive. But then, where is she? what character do we got whom is afflicted with the Shredder?
Well, Karai, boom, there ya go.

Also, an essential rule for screen-writing, especially in shows like this where you only have twenty minutes episode to tell a story each. You have to be very economic with what you tell, all must have some-thing to do with the story, no plot point is ever introduced if it doesn't come up later, and well, Splinter having a daughter now, that is a plot point! it will and shall come up later in the show.
Karai is Miwa.


Then Karai shows up, and it just becomes more and more obvious. her calling Shredder Father, her being a truth seaker, always searching for the higher truth while telling the truth herself, Shredder going all.
"Remember what he did to us!"
Meaning, Karai thinks Splinter killed her mother.. yeah, it's more and more obvious the more we move along.

Is it a bad thing that it's so obvious? no, no it isn't, it just means the show creators actually planned ahead and left clues for younger viewers to follow, there's nothing worse than a twist that comes out of no-where and thus makes no sense.
This twist will make sense, cause we all-ready saw it coming.

It is ofcause still a little medi-ocre when we did see it coming.

A perfect twist is any story is when the twist happens, and the entire audience goes. "Oh! that's what happened, now it makes perfect sense!"

Movie, the sixth sense, there were clues enough in it, and the entire movie were about the twist so when it happened, the audience really did go. "Oh now it makes sense, I see!"
J.K. Rowling is also a master of these twists in her potter books, it's always so when you reread the book, all twists were always present, you just were aware of them before you read the reveal, and then when re-reading it makes so much sense.

[Drose18]

Actually didnt splinter say he LOST miwa not she got killed?

[Candy Kappa]

As for now it seems very obvious that Kara is actually Miwa, but I'd love to see otherwise.

It would have been interesting if Shredder had two daughters, he could have had Karai before the fire accident, had her of necessity to maintain a heir to the Clan, but then he kept Yoshi's child who reminds him of Shen and maybe are more of a loving father forwards Miwa instead. I just want to see a Shredder that is just more then "Bwhahaha I'm evil."

[Jephael]

At first I really didn't care much for this idea, but more and more I see her in action, I think it'd make for an interesting twist.

[JoshDA7X]

Having just finished watching the most recent ep, I'd have to say that I think she is indeed Splinter's daughter!

[Coola Yagami]

Having just finished watching the most recent ep, I'd have to say that I think she is indeed Splinter's daughter!

Now that Splinter knows Shredder has a teenage female ninja, I'm surprised he doesn't suspect anything.

[Xav]

Maybe. If anything it's above average kids show, leaning towards M content imo.Wha? What M rated content? There's no blood, sex, or swearing on the show.

[Coola Yagami]

Wha? What M rated content? There's no blood, sex, or swearing on the show.

I guess the Snakeweed Fatality scene... but then again, monsters and such have always been destroyed in kiddy cartoons and it's no big deal. It's a big deal when humans get destroyed... like if Dr. Falco DIDN'T dodge Leo's sword strikes in 'Monkey Brains' and got hacked up to a bloody mess....

As long as there's no swearing, Karai shower scenes, people being cut up to bloody ribbons ON-SCREEN (not that off screen implied stuff), Purple Dragons trying to rip April's clothes off, and of course, Family Guy style humor, this is still a normal kid's cartoon.

[CyberCubed]

The show is for kids. Nobody will ever get stabbed in the series.

[Coola Yagami]

The show is for kids. Nobody will ever get stabbed in the series.

Kinda what I just said Cybercubed, but yeah sure.

[Ninjawolf]

let's get back on topic guys... if Karai is indeed Miwa It would be pretty twisted... it's the cruelest thing he could do against Splinter... use his own daughter against him

[Coola Yagami]

let's get back on topic guys... if Karai is indeed Miwa It would be pretty twisted... it's the cruelest thing he could do against Splinter... use his own daughter against him

Right up Shredder's alley, if ya ask me.

[Shredded]

I just want to see a Shredder that is just more then "Bwhahaha I'm evil."

But that is pretty much whom he is isn't it?

Just sir "No one is as evil as me! bwahaha!"

I guess we should leave the conflicted multi dimensional antagonists to the other villains. Karai is that sort of a person, I could see this Stockman also gain more dimensions eventually (poor guy.)
Then we have the purple dragon guy Leo showed mercy to (I forgot his name.)


And yeah, thus far that would be the villains with more dimensions to them than just being evil. But hey, it's a kids show, they can't all be conflicted, and some-times it's actually really nice having a badass villain whom is just evil, makes a nice contrast to the other more conflicted characters, and also serves a moral antagonists as a symbol of evil against the protagonists morals, this time, mainly Splinters morales which seems to be all about "Mercy." and. "All life is precious, so waste not."

In opposed to Shredders. "No Mercy." and. "If you are no use to me, then what are you good for? then I might as well kill you."


And yeah, yeah using Karai, secretly Splinters daughter to destroy Splinter is a very cruel thing. I could just imagine Shredder having caught Splinter and then demand Karai to finish him, that would be straight up Shredders alley.


A friend of mine and me also used this morning to discuss possible ways for Splinter or Karai to figure out the truth, and you know, that's an interesting subject.

I mean, whom is going to figure out first? Splinter or Karai? and how will they react.
Does the turtles find out first, and how would they react?

Leo; What did Splinter ever do to you by the way?

Karai; He killed my mother, Oroku Sakis wife, Teng-shen.

Leo; What?

Mikey; Dude, this is so messed up!


Honestly I can't wait to see how they are going to handle this and how it's going to unfold, there are so many possibilities.

[Cure]

Maybe. If anything it's above average kids show, leaning towards M content imo.



Hahaha, oh my God. You're a crazy person.

[Shark_Blade]

As I said I felt it leans towards M but not necessarily M. More as T rating. Hahaha, oh my God. You're a crazy person.

Go **** yourself road runner.




A friend of mine and me also used this morning to discuss possible ways for Splinter or Karai to figure out the truth, and you know, that's an interesting subject.

I mean, whom is going to figure out first? Splinter or Karai? and how will they react.
Does the turtles find out first, and how would they react?

Leo; What did Splinter ever do to you by the way?

Karai; He killed my mother, Oroku Sakis wife, Teng-shen.

Leo; What?

Mikey; Dude, this is so messed up!


Honestly I can't wait to see how they are going to handle this and how it's going to unfold, there are so many possibilities.I figure as much. Karai will open up and finally get the true story of her past. Will she stick with the turtles or Shredder after that? If its with Shredder, she knows she's fighting the wrong side. If its with the turtles, she will have to face his "father".

Maybe it's best for her to drop everything and just leave then.

[Cure]

As I said I felt it leans towards M but not necessarily M. More as T rating.


Still completely nuts!

[Zulithe]

I mean, whom is going to figure out first? Splinter or Karai? and how will they react.
Does the turtles find out first, and how would they react?


Just knowing that Shredder has a teenage female Japanese ninja under his employ must be enough to arise suspicion... especially from splinter, who should at least be considering possibilities like this... but yeah, it's a kid's show, that's really the only answer to these sorts of questions... lol

[Shredded]

Just knowing that Shredder has a teenage female Japanese ninja under his employ must be enough to arise suspicion... especially from splinter, who should at least be considering possibilities like this... but yeah, it's a kid's show, that's really the only answer to these sorts of questions... lol

I don't see how Shredder merely having a teenage girl in his employe makes any difference.

There are tons of teenage girls out there, it doesn't mean any-thing.

How-ever, that she claims to be Shredders daughter does! and that could be the moment Splinters suspecions could be rised, could go some-thing like this.

"Oroku Sakis Daughter?"

"Yeah."

"How old is she supposed to be?"

"Urh.. 17-18 I guess. Why does that matter?"

"I left Japan sixteen years ago, at that time did Oroku Saki not have any child nor wife."

"But how is karai then possible?"

"How indeed."

Is that confirmation that she is Miwa? No, not really, it isn't.

How-ever, the exact moment she tells just one of our protagonists.
"Splinter killed my mother." the gig will be up, that will be the dead give-away. It's a piece of information that would make the turtles and Splinter grow suspecious, even if Karai doesn't know it.

[Yorae]

The show is for kids. Nobody will ever get stabbed in the series.

Leo did stab Raph in the shell in Rise of the Turtles, if that counts for anything.

[snake]

Go **** yourself road runner.
.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
But seriously, I agree with cure.

[BubblyShell22]

It's obvious Karai is Miwa as I feel that's an essential plot point in the rivalry. However, it'll be interesting to see how they find out the truth. I'm sure Splinter has suspicions already, and I can see why he would. I can't wait to see how this all unfolds.

[Zulithe]

I don't see how Shredder merely having a teenage girl in his employe makes any difference.


Well Splinter is supposed to be all wise and stuff. Heck I know I'd be considering it as soon as I heard about "Karai" -- a japanese female the same age as Miwa would have been and with ninja training (possibly even with a signature style that would indicate shredder himself tutored her). And I certainly don't think I'm as wise as Splinter would be if he actually existed in the real world and not just in kid's cartoon :)

I *love* TMNT, I don't care that it is targeted for kids, so I accept all of this. I just go with the flow :P

[Shredded]

Well Splinter is supposed to be all wise and stuff. Heck I know I'd be considering it as soon as I heard about "Karai" -- a japanese female the same age as Miwa would have been and with ninja training (possibly even with a signature style that would indicate shredder himself tutored her). And I certainly don't think I'm as wise as Splinter would be if he actually existed in the real world and not just in kid's cartoon :)

I *love* TMNT, I don't care that it is targeted for kids, so I accept all of this. I just go with the flow :P


Oh me to, and I am absolutely and deeply in love with this show!
I think it's one of the best animated tely shows I have seen in a loooooong while!

I mean people have gone nuts over "Young Justice." last year and all I could say was. "Well.. it's oki, certainly not bad, but merely okay really."
This is way better in my mind, I love it so much, I am in love with this thing!

Legend of Korra is the most beautiful animated show I have ever seen in tely but.. the pacing was to flawed for me to call it the perfect show, it had a lot of hiccups, still a really good show though, but far more flawed than this.

And if we backtrack from that.. what do I really have in recent stand-out animated show? urh... the last one being this good, I think, is Teen Titans, and that's kind of an old show around now.

Unlike so many else, I do not want this show to be more complicated than it needs to be, and I don't want it to be darker or any-thing like that. I like it just as it is! as a fun, straight-forward action adventure.

I really think our current work lacks that in hollywood. They always try so hard to be "Dark." and "Gritty." and "Realistic." and "Twisted." ext.. when honestly, all I need for the most part is just a good oll fashioned good time, with a likeable hero, a cool villain and some neat action scenes with a straight-forward engaging plot, done buisness.

That's why I liked Avengers so much last summer, yeah the plot was simple and straight forward, it was merely. "Good guys vs. Evil guy." but that's all we needed, we don't need to make every-thing "Christopher Nolans Batman."

Honestly.. over complicating stuff does not make it better at all! and it's a classical error many writers make, thinking as long as it's complicated it's good. no, then rather keep it simple.
When I work with new first time script writers, they often make that same mistake of writing it so confused and complicated that it's not at all engaging or understanable for the audience, simplicity, is really the greatest key when writing a story, sketch or play.

And yeah, Splinter is wise and stuff.. but again, Shredder merely having a teeange girl approximately miwas age in his employment, makes little difference, Shredder has a massive force of ninjas, that most of them are young and some of them female only makes sense.

How-ever! the exact moment the turtles finds out she is the Shredders daughter, (which hasn't happened yet.) Then the ball will start roling I assure you, then would be the time to start suspecting and things unravel.

Yeah, we the audience all-ready know she is Miwa, because we can look at the plot point as an audience would, we can piece this together and say. "This bit of information is only there because it will matter later."
How-ever, the characters within the show havn't gotten that far yet, they need to catch up with us.

But they will figure out soonish, and it will be messy. and I can't wait to see how that will unfold!

[Coola Yagami]

Naw... it's too suspicious. Out of all of the faceless nameless mooks, Leo just happens to fight a teenage female with an actual name and some sort of status over the regular Foot. Splinter should still sense something there. It woulda been easily dismissed if Leo fell for random female Foot Ninja # 45, but this teenage girl Karai somewhere in Shredder's top ranks should raise some sort of suspicion.

[Jephael]

Out of all of the faceless nameless mooks, Leo just happens to fight a teenage female with an actual name and some sort of status over the regular Foot. Splinter should still sense something there. It woulda been easily dismissed if Leo fell for random female Foot Ninja # 45, but this teenage girl Karai somewhere in Shredder's top ranks should raise some sort of suspicion.

I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself, pal. Splinter just found out about Karai, and he hasn't had much time to process this new information. Keep in mind that she isn't the first of Shredder's big-name henchment to encounter the Turtles. When you think about it, Leo's situation with Karai is similar to Mikey's with "Rad Brad" earlier in the season.

[Konchadunga]

But that is pretty much whom he is isn't it?

Just sir "No one is as evil as me! bwahaha!"

No; not exactly, or he would have just killed Miwa/Karai.

I guess we should leave the conflicted multi dimensional antagonists to the other villains.

Why?

And yeah, thus far that would be the villains with more dimensions to them than just being evil. But hey, it's a kids show, they can't all be conflicted,

Yes they could; easily; that kid show villains aren't is a big deficiency with them.

and some-times it's actually really nice having a badass villain whom is just evil,

No it's not. That's stupid and with Shredder being the chief antagonist, will only make me grow sick of him the way I did in the 2003 series. All characters can be improved with depth, and if done right that doesn't undermine how threatening they are. The really scary guys in the real world are the types who think they're doing right when they commit mass murder; let's have some more of them in fiction. Straight greed and anger are boring.

[Shredded]

No; not exactly, or he would have just killed Miwa/Karai.



Why?



Yes they could; easily; that kid show villains aren't is a big deficiency with them.



No it's not. That's stupid and with Shredder being the chief antagonist, will only make me grow sick of him the way I did in the 2003 series. All characters can be improved with depth, and if done right that doesn't undermine how threatening they are. The really scary guys in the real world are the types who think they're doing right when they commit mass murder; let's have some more of them in fiction. Straight greed and anger are boring.

The Joker doesn't seem very conflicted about what he is doing and he is one of the most awesome villains ever made!

Look, there are two kinds of awesome villains.

The kind where you actually are able to put yourself in their place and see exactly where they are coming from, which makes them conflicted and sort of like an anti hero some-times, whom just happens to fight for the wrong thing.

Javert From Les Mirable, Captain Ahab from Moby dick, Doctor Frankenstein, Judge Frolo from Hunchback of Notredame, Lotso from Toy Story 3 and the list goes on.

Amazing villains where you truly feel for them, and you are able to sort of see what they see. Where they see themselves as the good guy, not even realisng they are caught in their own obsession and is doomed to failure.

And then there is the villains whom are just evil. but is a lot of fun regardless, serving their role as great adversary, scarring the hell out of us, and being a lot of fun fighting!

Professor Moriarty, Ratigan from Basil of Bakerstreet, Hades from Hercules, the Joker from Batman, the Riddler also from Batman, Sauron from the lord of the rings, Lord Voldemort...

The difference to me between these two kinds of villains are that the more complex ones often (not always.) appears in more complex multi layered works.
While the just evil people, may be less complex.. but are much more fun! and belong in more fun works!

Negaduck gotta be one of the most evil dudes I have ever seen, he just revels in his own evil, but god dammit is he entertaining with his beloved chainsaw in hand!

Ratigan as well.. man is he fun every single second he is on screen.

Azula from avatar the last airbender, she's pure evil, but dangit that makes her Scary. Slade as well from Teen Titans, that he just is "Sir evil." is what makes him scary.

And when the story does not call for more, there's nothing wrong with it not being more.

What I is most important with any villain, is that he and her must be what the story calls for.

This story calls for that the Shredder needs to be threatening! we ought to be scared by him along-side the turtles.
He needs to be scary to ninja masters, and he needs to be very intimidating.

That in itself, is tough to pull off.

They could have elected to make him love Karai, as in genuinly love her, and I thought that was what they were going to go with before I saw her first episode, as I also thought it would add more complexity to what is going to happen.
But it seems clear to me now, that they didn't.. but yet I can't really mind that much at all, instead of adding complexity, it adds to how cold this Shredder is, and that's not neccesarily bad.
Because he is very bad-ass, he is very intimidating, I want to see more of him, and thus it's a job pulled very well off.
The fact that he doesn't care and doesn't have mercy, if done right, adds to the intimidating factor, it sends a signal that this dude actually would go ahead and do nasty evil things without hesitation, and when done right, that is scary, it's kind of badass.

Is it an oppertunity wasted? perhaps.. if you were ever going to give this Shredder a little more depht, his relationship with Karai would have been your most perfect chance ever, there wont be another chance like that. But they didn't go for it, and I don't mind, then it doesn't become to bitter-sweet he finally goes down, and it'll be a lot of fun.

Also we don't have to suffer through all of that. "This Is not what I wanted Leonardo, now I must take on the mantle of the Shredder." crap we had to go through with the 2k3 show where Karai seemed like she couldn't make up her mind about what the freak she actually wanted!

[Konchadunga]

The Joker doesn't seem very conflicted about what he is doing and he is one of the most awesome villains ever made!

The Joker works better than most villains who are evil for no apparent reason because unlike them, he is actually visibly having fun with it--except for Heath Ledger's joker, whom I find incredibly overrated. Also, sure killing people for fun is incredibly evil, but the Joker does have other personality traits besides evil. He actually makes jokes that don't harm anyone and is occasionally an amusing guy for his allies to hang out with. Most shallow, motivation-less, scary villains, however, never seem pleased even when they accomplish evil, and never smile even in an evil way. That's not awesome, it's minimalist.

And then there is the villains whom are just evil. but is a lot of fun regardless, serving their role as great adversary, scarring the hell out of us, and being a lot of fun fighting!

I have a hard time being scared of any villain in a kids' cartoon, so that's not much of an option here. And again, none of that would be undermined by giving a villain depth. A villain who has what he views as a noble motivation can still be a horrifying murderer and a good fighter.

Professor Moriarty

Not a big classic literature person, so I can't comment.

Ratigan from Basil of Bakerstreet

Same as Joker. Still more the exception than the rule, though.

Hades from Hercules,

I'll be the first to admit I hate Hades. Nothing but anachronism, loud, in-your-face attitude, and catch-phrases. Take the "evil" part away and he's just your typical 1990s cartoon character. I find the whole decade's sense of humor to be very overrated.

the Riddler also from Batman,

Wait; the Riddler is scary or fun to watch? Since when? I thought he was a just a duller version of the Joker, in both regards.

Sauron from the lord of the rings, Lord Voldemort...

See my response to Moriarty.

While the just evil people, may be less complex.. but are much more fun! and belong in more fun works!

Negaduck gotta be one of the most evil dudes I have ever seen, he just revels in his own evil, but god dammit is he entertaining with his beloved chainsaw in hand!

Ratigan as well.. man is he fun every single second he is on screen.

See, the Shredder from the first TMNT cartoon would fit that bill. He's funny, and his megalomania manifests itself in the form of goofy inventions, and he makes jokes. But this Shredder isn't like that. He's more like Ch'rel, whom I thoroughly despise. This show's "fun," as you describe it, really doesn't extend to the villains.

Azula from avatar the last airbender, she's pure evil, but dangit that makes her Scary. Slade as well from Teen Titans, that he just is "Sir evil." is what makes him scary.

Slade has more depth than that, and once again, grow up; cartoons aren't scary and if you want that watch a monster movie. Let sentient lifeforms be sentient.

And when the story does not call for more, there's nothing wrong with it not being more.

Maybe, but there's nothing right with it, either.

What I is most important with any villain, is that he and her must be what the story calls for.

Obviously that's the most important thing, but that doesn't mean it has to be the only thing. Truly great works go above and beyond what is required.

This story calls for that the Shredder needs to be threatening! we ought to be scared by him along-side the turtles.
He needs to be scary to ninja masters, and he needs to be very intimidating.

That in itself, is tough to pull off.

Bullcrap. Anyone can write an intimidating character. Of course, you need to put him in the show more often and have him be a constant threat, which narrows down the focus, but it's not hard to do if that is your intent.

They could have elected to make him love Karai, as in genuinly love her, and I thought that was what they were going to go with before I saw her first episode, as I also thought it would add more complexity to what is going to happen.
But it seems clear to me now, that they didn't.. but yet I can't really mind that much at all, instead of adding complexity, it adds to how cold this Shredder is, and that's not neccesarily bad.
Because he is very bad-ass, he is very intimidating, I want to see more of him, and thus it's a job pulled very well off.
The fact that he doesn't care and doesn't have mercy, if done right, adds to the intimidating factor, it sends a signal that this dude actually would go ahead and do nasty evil things without hesitation, and when done right, that is scary, it's kind of badass.

Is it an oppertunity wasted? perhaps.. if you were ever going to give this Shredder a little more depht, his relationship with Karai would have been your most perfect chance ever, there wont be another chance like that. But they didn't go for it, and I don't mind, then it doesn't become to bitter-sweet he finally goes down, and it'll be a lot of fun.

The problem, though, is that he might not go down at all. However horrendous a person the Shredder is, the heroes won't give him the death he deserves because of the stupid Kantian morality demanded of cartoons, or if they do they'll just bring him back because the writers think a shallow villain is the best for a constant nemesis. (Really, the whole idea of a nemesis is stupid.) Having a truly wicked villain, for me, requires that he get a truly wicked end. Something like this, though hopefully more well-done. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZkblH8Q22I) In the long run, though, you can't really have either in a kids' show. You need more gore and more length.

Also we don't have to suffer through all of that. "This Is not what I wanted Leonardo, now I must take on the mantle of the Shredder." crap we had to go through with the 2k3 show where Karai seemed like she couldn't make up her mind about what the freak she actually wanted!

You effectively debunked your own point, considering what a pure evil shallow crap-villain Ch'rel was, which is precisely why Karai looked stupider and stupider for being loyal to him. Why expect things to be different here, if the villain is the same? If it's because Karai seems different, then valid point, but that wasn't what you seemed to be implying.

At any rate, we are probably going to have to agree to disagree until we meet in an alley with katanas, here. I admit that I really do not like large hams--good or evil--nearly as much as most people seem to, so I don't like over the top villains and I'm not a big fan of Michelangelo, either. I prefer my literature subtle and intellectual, and I absolutely will not buy that this necessarily undermines any emotional punch. The Matrix had a strong intellectual side, and it still had plenty of scary imagery and great action. I realize that attempts to imitate this standard (including those by the extended Matrix franchise itself) often wound up creating a lot of pretentious, emo drivel that made me wish for action films more like the Street Fighter movie with Jean Claude Van Damme, but nowadays Marvel's films show me we've arrived at a happy medium.

[Andrew NDB]

The amount of violence in TMNT is abundant compared to other toons, so it's not just a "kids show" per say.

No, it pretty much is.

[Konchadunga]

Violence isn't considered very adult in America.

[Shredded]

*Konchadunga

going to be a long post and am going to answer sort of randomely.

I thought Slade was scary, admittedly I let him scare me, it was not like I was crying in fear or any-thing, but I let myself be intimidated... also it's a kids show, it's not Moby Dick (all though that's a great book and you should read it.)
... how does Slade have more dimensions? what did he ever do that gave him more dimensions? he manipulated Terra and turned her against her friends, even took over her body.. which is almost body rape.
When he teamed up with the Titans in the Trigon arch, it was only because it benifitted him at that very moment in time, he just does what benefits him the most in any given moment. And that's a scary man I can allow myself being inimidated by when he mind-rapes Robin so Robin but no one else can see him in the dark.

Same way I let myself be intimidated by the Daleks (creatures of pure evil btw.) when they appear in Doctor who.. most of the time.. when the directing and writing is good enough.

Uh, be careful what you say about the Riddler on the enternet! Just a fair warning, there are loads of people whom will defend the riddler and love him to the bitter end!
And back in time in the sixties the Riddler was actually bigger than the joker for a while due to Frank Gorshins portrayal of him back in the sixties Batman seriel, where he surpassed the joker by far in popularity.

What you think about him, that's your own deal, I think he has his merits and some interesting interpretations along the way, and I would like to see him hit the limp-light again eventually, with perhaps a new more different presentation, I like to think of him as being slightly more sophisticated than the joker.

You don't need to be a litterary person to know whom Sauron or Lord voldemort is, they actually made movies about that. Some consider them the biggest most influencial fantasy movies ever made that shaped the way we make blockbuster movies today. Lord of the rings you might heard of those?
Moriarty also appears in several movies, he is Sherlock Holmes's arch nemesis you know.
But reading doesn't hurt either, it's nice sitting down with a good book ones in a while.... and thanks for telling me to grow up in the same post where you freely admit that I have probably read more books than you have.

And well.... the main function of an antagonist is to be the best possible obstacle for the protagonist. Whether the author choose to make the antagonist sympathetic or not, is really up to them.

I've just saw Django unchained.. wauw.. that antagonist was a despisable person! I mean, you hated being in the same room with that guy!
but he was intended to be that way, and in this situation it worked, it was satisfactory to see him finally get a knife to the stomach.

A villain always need to be well-written and well represented! a hero is never ever any better than the villain, the more difficult it seems to take the villain down the better.
And Shredder looks like a difficult tough adversary, that's his main job, so codus to that. Good villains are damn important, it has to look difficult to beat them. Other-wise they are effectless!
He is the obstacle that must be over-come, the tougher the obstacle the better.
The person we are really supposed to feel with and go on an emotional journey with, is the protagonist, which in this case, is the four turtles, every-one else in this univers only exists to serve the turtles journey in life.



What the problem with 2k3 Karai mostly was for me, was that she was entirely inconsistent.

The conflicted character that goes on a soul journey and is torned between two sides, is often the most interesting character, when written well.

Zuko in avatar the last airbender. (I assume you know who he is since you know whom Azula are.)
Is an amazing character in that regard, he starts out bad, goes on a soul journey where he learns and changes, commit mistakes and ends up a new re-born person.

Here's the thing though, with Zuko, I by all times get his actions and why he does what he does, even his mistakes I get. I get what he want, I even get "What he thinks he wants, and what he actually wants but don't know he wants yet."
his emotional journey is linear, and I get it! .. Also his dad is kind of all evil and the main protagonist, just to give you another "Entirely evil." person from a good animated show.

With Karai, her journey were at first linear, and I got it, she was a person whom genuinly loved the shredder, and wanted to honour him. how-ever, being a person of such great honour, what the Shredder often ended up asking of her didn't fit with her own honour codex, and thus she was conflicted.
I thought it was pretty straight forward, Karai was a good person still standing in Shredders shadow, whom needed to learn how to life by her own honour rules, I thought that she deep down knew that Shredder was evil, and her journey was to become that person whom could actually restore honour back into the foot clan.
I exspected her to be sad and bitter about her fathers defeat, but I also thought she knew why it had to happen.
Then the end of season three come and she went. "This is not what I wanted Leonardo, this is not what I wanted."
... erh.. Karai what did you exspect? For the Shredder to make ammends and make the Utrons apologetic cookies?
What happened after that, didn't seem to fit at all with her character growth, and I didn't get her any-more, she also seemed to swap in and out, according to what the writers needed today, no real consistency, no real journey, I had no idea what she wanted or where she stood.

[Slade]

I'm leaning more towards this, and Im sure since she called Shredder father it will be true, but I don't like it. Don't know if anyone agrees with me, but I feel this would ruin Karai's character in this version.


Unless there's a "real" Karai still in Japan or something.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Eh, I'm ok with it.

The question is even if that tidbit is out of the open, will Karai change (I'm under the impression she honestly loves and enjoys being a bad guy)? Will the Turtles change? An so on.

[BubblyShell22]

Well, I think it's a great twist to the story and something completely different than other incarnations.

As for her character, it depends. If she finds out the truth, she could be conflicted as to who is really her father as she's been raised by Shredder and fed lies by him yet Splinter is her real father. Either that, or she'll continue to be a bad guy and turn on Splinter due to what she's been told by Shredder. We'll have to wait and see on that one.

[Atren]

Assuming Miwa and Karai are one and the same which seems very likely.

One option would be if instead of lies Shredder has told her truth, just presenting all the facts from his point of view. That would make things a lot more complicated as it then becomes subjective question whom she going to believe.

[Machias Banshee]

After nearly 20 years of being raised and taught to hate a man by your close family, it's going to take nothing short of Shredder disowning her or trying to kill her to make her see the truth...

[ToTheNines]

I can't seem to find the post or remember who pointed this out earlier today, but I was intrigued to learn that in The Alien Agenda when Leo said "there's good in her!" there's a clear shot of Splinter's old family over his shoulder.

I'll have to rewatch sometime soon and confirm.

[Martin]

After nearly 20 years of being raised and taught to hate a man by your close family, it's going to take nothing short of Shredder disowning her or trying to kill her to make her see the truth...

Well he DID put a blade to her neck that one time, and he is kind of an ass to her most of the time. It's too soon to say what Karai actually thinks of Saki as a father figure, but for some reason I don't think fear and intimidation is the best way to go about raising a child.

[Jester]

_2LjwM3B688

[Jephael]

_2LjwM3B688

So what exactly are you hinting at with this awesome clip?

[Jester]

So what exactly are you hinting at with this awesome clip?
Nothing...just the "Karai is Miwa! Miwa is Karai!" made me think of it.


...also possibly that "KARAI IS A MAN!!!"



Just look at Tournament Fighter. (Seriously I thought she was a dude.)

[Jephael]

Nothing...just the "Karai is Miwa! Miwa is Karai!" made me think of it.


...also possibly that "KARAI IS A MAN!!!"



Just look at Tournament Fighter. (Seriously I thought she was a dude.)

Now you got me thinking of that scene in Austin Powers.

"It's not your mother, it's a man, Baby!!!"

[changepas39]

I was thinking the exact same thing!

[Jester]

Now you got me thinking of that scene in Austin Powers.

"It's not your mother, it's a man, Baby!!!"
WgOIEGz7o_s

[TheSmartOne]

So I had a thought the other day... Nick seems to have taken the 'Karai is Shredder's daughter' route this time around, but the new Shredder seems to be far darker then the 2k3 Shredder- At least in the sense that as far as representation goes, we've only seen Shredder as Shredder- Full armor costume all the time, only brief close up's of his eyes and stuff (4Kids Shredder was shown walking around simply as Oroku Saki fairly early on. It's a seemingly inoccuous difference, but showing Shredder without the armour 'humanizes' him, whereas keeping him in armour/always in shadows really draws out the whole "OHSOEVIL" angle). So I'm having a hard time believing that Nick Shredder would have bothered with family...or even with adopting some vagrant child off the streets and raising her as his own.

So I'm not sure if it's been speculated yet on another thread, but what if Karai is actually Splinter's daughter? Random thought, but a few things stand out to me:

- Karai definitely has some connection to Splinter. Shredder says something along the lines of "You know what he's done to me. You know what he's done to /us/". He implies that she has definitive reason to support his vendetta against Splinter.
- There's a legit distance between them. Even 4kids Shredder showed something like SLIGHT affection for Karai. He at least trusted her enough to show her he was really a splooshy alien brain. He had Hun go in after her when she was captured by Bishop and he was ready to entrust the entire foot clan to her when he was ready to leave for the Utrom home world. New Shredder, on the other hand, just seems disinterested in Karai on a whole... We haven't really seen much of them together, but still.

Only downside to this theory is how the heck Yoshi would have missed it if Miwa wasn't dead. Even if she'd just gone missing, you'd think he'd have torn apart Japan to find her. But again. The series is still young, so this could be information we just don't have yet.

WELL, ANY THOUGHTS GUYS? I kind of get the sense I might not be the only one to hit on the "Karai might be Splinter's daughter' thing, but I'll pretend I'm not painfully behind for a moment and invite you all to theorize with me ;)

[Jester]

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=41214

[grungethemovie]

well, i think the whole "don't care" attitude is because he's evil and a bad father
and i also think he might be playing the "splinter killed your mother" cause karai is not really evil and needs an honorable reason to be under him and his vendetta
maybe she'll go ronin on him when they all find out the truth :) (like, leave the foot but not affiliate with the turtles either)

[TheSmartOne]

Gah, thought so. I knew I was behind on something.

XD 'Because he's evil and a bad father"
That made me laugh more then it should of. But yeah, that's definitely the angle they're playing. Any 'fondness' Shredders' got for Karai seems like it's based on how well he could use her. But that's going to be an interesting plot bomb when it does explode. Not only is Karai going to have to deal with the fact that she was raised and probably has some affection for the psychopath who was actually responsible for all the stuff that Shredder said Splinter did, but she's also going to have to deal with deciding who the heck she is- She obviously takes some pleasure in the illicit. She wanted to steal that sword for nothing more then the thrill of it.
Plus there's Splinter >_> Who gets to figure out how to deal with all the feels of having a previously thought dead daughter rise from the grave and attempt to kill him and his new family.

[grungethemovie]

yes! exactly
quite an interesting character if you ask me
(i only find it weird how she was hidden up until the season break, which reminds me too about bradford and xever who seemed way more played before their mutation, which in the episode's end when it happens was so shocking - maybe because we grew fond of the characters - to be quite forgotten now, and fishface with mech legs was not as cool as xever - but then, bradford was in his coolest when he was in his "shredder pupil" outfit in his first appearance)
and since it feels i'm already off topic (and will this thread be deleted?) may i talk about snake, why would the kraang need a driver if they have human disguises - at first i thought that they couldnt drive - but they totally drive later on - and why was his design so uninspired (just like the fat guy that would become spiderbite) does it mean if a guy shoes up in jeans and wife-beater, he will turn into a filler mutant?

[grungethemovie]

well, since you edited, i did too, but the update won't show (since it's an edit) here's a post talking about nothing

[snake]

Nope, karai becomes neutral after she finds out she is miwa. It's probably the route there going to take,

[grungethemovie]

what you mean "nope" isn't it what we're saying?
part from foot but not with turtles?

and cool, everything just moved integrating in the old thread, sweet!

[TheSmartOne]

Yay for reviving old threads! And my bad, I should have done a proper search. It was late and I just sort of had a 'wait a minute' moment and got a little too excited with sharing.

I've noticed that Nick really seems to be trying to keep all their cards in the deck though. The pacing for the show is a lot slower then it was for 4kids, which is a minor detail I take a bit of issue with, since I actually really love how plot events in the 2003 version seemed to extend beyond their episode. Things that had already happened were mentioned, or referred to, or played a major part in episodes to come, and it was nice. It felt like the world kept breathing outside of the thirty minute slot you were watching. The 2k3 series had its own issues (they just decided to fricken throw everything at it. Time travel, space travel, no one ever stayed dead and heck, let's turn everyone into giant floating dragon things) but the plots overarched. Anyways, I'm getting a little off topic again, but the nick show isn't quite doing that so far. It's different, I guess, though I agree with you on how Bradford and Xevers mutations were made more surprising because of it. XD I think it was a nice touch to show how ridiculous Xever's mutation was. The turtles had a nice loooong laugh. Their mutations seem to make them all the more dangerous though. So far the turtles have had pretty major trouble every time they've gone up against their new forms and really only won with luck over skill.

XD haha, wife beater and jeans means instant mutation in New York! I actually kind of liked Snake, though as for the reason why he was there, it was probably to serve a plot point >> It probably isn't so far off the mark to say that the Krang do work with humans. They would probably have to, to go so far as establishing the world Genome project. Even Falco said that "Rockwell got some money from some shady business types". Falco turned out to be a liar, but he did get mutagen from somewhere. Snake probably served some sort of underworld function. The idea that he's around doesn't really strike me a ridiculous. Though Spiderbites was kind of pure episode filler.

But back to Karai... Cause again, distracted xD it's hard to assume what she'll do. Like I said before, just think about how mind blowing that would be for /her/. I think it'll (hopefully) wind up being a bit more complicated then "she just becomes neutral". Is she going to want a father/daughter relationship with Splinter? Is she going to push him away? Is she going to go on blaming him anyway, because it winds up being easier to assume he was at fault for letting Shedder use her, etc. We've only seen snippets of her personality so far, so anything's possible.
Nick came up with a really good plot twist. There's a lot of potential here

[snake]

what you mean "nope" isn't it what we're saying?
part from foot but not with turtles?

and cool, everything just moved integrating in the old thread, sweet!

I was answering the question the thread was asking, I wasn't in the conversation, so I didn't join in, so I stated my new idea.

[DarkLightDragon]

I'm just curious as to how Karai is going to learn the truth and what she's going to do after letting it sink in. Can't really picture her living with the Turtles nor staying with Shredder.


However they're going to pull the 'Yoshi is your real father' reveal convincingly will be intriuging to see.

[snake]

I'm just curious as to how Karai is going to learn the truth and what she's going to do after letting it sink in. Can't really picture her living with the Turtles nor staying with Shredder.


However they're going to pull the 'Yoshi is your real father' reveal convincingly will be intriuging to see.

Splinter will probably tell her somehow,

[Jephael]

Splinter will probably tell her somehow,

Does Splinter even know that's his daughter though?

[TheSmartOne]

He'll probably figure it out. Wasn't he telling April that he trained his whole life to obtain the sort of 'sensitivity' she had in terms of gut feelings? Methinks thi might be one of those times were it might come into play.

[CyberCubed]

Yay for reviving old threads! And my bad, I should have done a proper search. It was late and I just sort of had a 'wait a minute' moment and got a little too excited with sharing.

I've noticed that Nick really seems to be trying to keep all their cards in the deck though. The pacing for the show is a lot slower then it was for 4kids, which is a minor detail I take a bit of issue with, since I actually really love how plot events in the 2003 version seemed to extend beyond their episode. Things that had already happened were mentioned, or referred to, or played a major part in episodes to come, and it was nice. It felt like the world kept breathing outside of the thirty minute slot you were watching. The 2k3 series had its own issues (they just decided to fricken throw everything at it. Time travel, space travel, no one ever stayed dead and heck, let's turn everyone into giant floating dragon things) but the plots overarched. Anyways, I'm getting a little off topic again, but the nick show isn't quite doing that so far. It's different, I guess, though I agree with you on how Bradford and Xevers mutations were made more surprising because of it. XD I think it was a nice touch to show how ridiculous Xever's mutation was. The turtles had a nice loooong laugh. Their mutations seem to make them all the more dangerous though. So far the turtles have had pretty major trouble every time they've gone up against their new forms and really only won with luck over skill.

XD haha, wife beater and jeans means instant mutation in New York! I actually kind of liked Snake, though as for the reason why he was there, it was probably to serve a plot point >> It probably isn't so far off the mark to say that the Krang do work with humans. They would probably have to, to go so far as establishing the world Genome project. Even Falco said that "Rockwell got some money from some shady business types". Falco turned out to be a liar, but he did get mutagen from somewhere. Snake probably served some sort of underworld function. The idea that he's around doesn't really strike me a ridiculous. Though Spiderbites was kind of pure episode filler.

But back to Karai... Cause again, distracted xD it's hard to assume what she'll do. Like I said before, just think about how mind blowing that would be for /her/. I think it'll (hopefully) wind up being a bit more complicated then "she just becomes neutral". Is she going to want a father/daughter relationship with Splinter? Is she going to push him away? Is she going to go on blaming him anyway, because it winds up being easier to assume he was at fault for letting Shedder use her, etc. We've only seen snippets of her personality so far, so anything's possible.
Nick came up with a really good plot twist. There's a lot of potential here

Nick does have a slow and steady approach, but all those other elements you listed like going into space, traveling through time, going through other dimensions will all happen in time. Remember in the 4kids series they didn't go into space till the Season 2 opener.

It's part of TMNT lore and happens in every series and comic.

[TheSmartOne]

Nick does have a slow and steady approach, but all those other elements you listed like going into space, traveling through time, going through other dimensions will all happen in time. Remember in the 4kids series they didn't go into space till the Season 2 opener.

It's part of TMNT lore and happens in every series and comic.

I'm actually kind of hoping that they don't go crazy like they did in the 4kids version. By season 3, it started to feel like they were throwing every plot device and the kitchen sink at the series. The arcs themselves weren't /bad/. The plots were still entertaining for the most part, and one of my favourite episodes is actually the one were Usagi and Gen wind up in New York XDDD But what I mean is that 'Ninja Turtles + Mutants + Space" = alright, I'll buy it. "Ninja Turtles + Mutants + Space + Now they're in another dimension + Oh wait, no they went back in time + Another dimension FORWARD IN TIME + Hey is that Chtulu (Even though that was a rockin' episode)", Starts really really really stretching my suspension of belief.

But then again, I kind of marathoned the 4Kids series... so watching it all at once may have skewed my perception of how quickly certain things occurred.

[CyberCubed]

I'm actually kind of hoping that they don't go crazy like they did in the 4kids version. By season 3, it started to feel like they were throwing every plot device and the kitchen sink at the series. The arcs themselves weren't /bad/. The plots were still entertaining for the most part, and one of my favourite episodes is actually the one were Usagi and Gen wind up in New York XDDD But what I mean is that 'Ninja Turtles + Mutants + Space" = alright, I'll buy it. "Ninja Turtles + Mutants + Space + Now they're in another dimension + Oh wait, no they went back in time + Another dimension FORWARD IN TIME + Hey is that Chtulu (Even though that was a rockin' episode)", Starts really really really stretching my suspension of belief.

But then again, I kind of marathoned the 4Kids series... so watching it all at once may have skewed my perception of how quickly certain things occurred.

Yeah, I see what you mean. Still given its confirmed the Kraang are from another dimension, its pretty much a given they'll travel to space/Dimension X eventually, probably in Season 2.

The difference is this show is in CG, so it takes more work to create the "sets" for alien enviornments than 2D cartoons.

[Shredded]

I actually really like that this show is taking its time! It feels way more grounded, and when a big event happens, well it feels all that more special.

They keep back Splinter and Shredder, teasing us a bit with their fighting skills, and it feels so much more satisfactory when they finally fights.

Events seems more special when they finally happened.

I actually feel a bit like it became a down-right problem in the 2k3 show that it went to big to fast. It had HUGE events within the first part of the first season.

"Shredder Strikes." just felt way more like a first season finaly then... episode ten.

I can come up with no other show paced this way, with so many big events on so little time, and well.. it makes the events loose their importance, I feel like any-way.

In this show, it felt like such a huge deal when Shredder finally faced the turtles one o one.
It also felt like a huge deal in I'monster when we saw Splinter in action, and it feels like a huge deal that the turtles are going to figure out what the Krang is up to in the next episode.

yeah, I like the pace of this show better, yeah there are less big events, yeah they stay more firmly grounded in a smaller enviroment, which is just them, but I sort of like that. it allows the characters to breath, and it makes bigger events feel more special.


And yeah I can't wait either for the big reveal.
How will Karai deal with it? how will Splinter deal with it? ... how will the turtles deal with it?
I mean, they are his adopted sons, up turns his biological daugther, that could be sort of nasty. And on the same time they all agree that they can't trust her, that wont chance just because she started out as Miwa.

I think that's a good way to put it, she started out as Miwa, she is now Karai, and her arch is probably going to be, figuring out whom she is going to be next.

[TheSmartOne]

What I like is that they've done a good job so far setting up the possibilities of going to another Dimension and/or Space. It's integral to the story, so if it happens, it won't be a "Woah, wait, what? We're in....Okay, we're in space..." moment.

O_O And yes... Those five minutes in the Gauntlet were intense. I really really really really want to see Shredder make his next move. The fact that Leo and the others escaped /ONLY/ because Shredder got distracted is actually pretty chilling. Actually, Shredder's portrayal on a whole has been beautifully done. They're keeping him mysterious, dark and scary. The fact that there are fewer characters is also nice. Like you said, it lets everyone breath. It also keeps the filler characters to a minimum. Anyone who serves a significant role on screen is going to be important, if for the sole reason that it takes so much work just to get a character modelled and textured XD They're not going to let that work go to waste.


And yeah I can't wait either for the big reveal.
How will Karai deal with it? how will Splinter deal with it? ... how will the turtles deal with it?
I mean, they are his adopted sons, up turns his biological daugther, that could be sort of nasty. And on the same time they all agree that they can't trust her, that wont chance just because she started out as Miwa.

I think that's a good way to put it, she started out as Miwa, she is now Karai, and her arch is probably going to be, figuring out whom she is going to be next.

I knoooow, it's going to be big, man! I was also thinking about that. The whole 'biological daughter' vs 'Adopted sons' deal. The turtles might even feel sort of threatened by the new development, considering that Splinter's obviously told them a lot about his old life. Splinter even keeps the picture of his wife and Miwa in the dojo. It's not something he's let go of just yet and though I really doubt Splinter would love them any less, they are teenagers and they're probably not going to approach the situation with much logic. They'd probably be worried that he'd just decide that's that and ditch them or something. In terms of the trust issue, Raph, Donnie and Mikey are going to be the hardest to win over, since Leo seems to think she's got some good in her (plus that little crush), and Splinter's judgement might get clouded once he finds out the truth. Maybe.... hard to tell with Splinter >_>

[Shredded]

O_O And yes... Those five minutes in the Gauntlet were intense. I really really really really want to see Shredder make his next move.


I knoooow, it's going to be big, man! I was also thinking about that. The whole 'biological daughter' vs 'Adopted sons' deal. The turtles might even feel sort of threatened by the new development, considering that Splinter's obviously told them a lot about his old life. Splinter even keeps the picture of his wife and Miwa in the dojo. It's not something he's let go of just yet and though I really doubt Splinter would love them any less, they are teenagers and they're probably not going to approach the situation with much logic. They'd probably be worried that he'd just decide that's that and ditch them or something. In terms of the trust issue, Raph, Donnie and Mikey are going to be the hardest to win over, since Leo seems to think she's got some good in her (plus that little crush), and Splinter's judgement might get clouded once he finds out the truth. Maybe.... hard to tell with Splinter >_>

And you do know, you being all frustrated over Shredder sitting there and wanting him to come out is a good thing right?
It means you are invested, and the show has succeeded in teasing you. Again yeah the other show had quicker events, but there wasn't so much build up.
That this show is getting under peoples skin and they are sitting saying. "Come-on! cooome on! I want to see them in action!" .. is actually a good thing, the show is very much teasing us right now, they are slowly but surely building up, and some-times the wait time is actually more memorable than the actual event.


And for Splinter.. yeah, that's another thing about this show taking its time and letting the character breath. We have all-ready established that this Splinter are capable of mistakes to, like Panick in the Sewers.. he is clever and analytical, but he makes mistake. And I am pretty sure he is going to make at least one, some kind of a mistake, when Karai gets to be involved.
What it is I don't know yet, if it's a mistake towards her because she is a genuine threat to his new family, or a mistake towards the turtles not explaining the situation probably.. I don't know, could go either way really, and both are very human mistakes.

And well, of cause he hasn't let go of the love of his life and his first child that died in a fire. No one would have.

[TheSmartOne]

And you do know, you being all frustrated over Shredder sitting there and wanting him to come out is a good thing right?
It means you are invested, and the show has succeeded in teasing you. Again yeah the other show had quicker events, but there wasn't so much build up.
That this show is getting under peoples skin and they are sitting saying. "Come-on! cooome on! I want to see them in action!" .. is actually a good thing, the show is very much teasing us right now, they are slowly but surely building up, and some-times the wait time is actually more memorable than the actual event.


And for Splinter.. yeah, that's another thing about this show taking its time and letting the character breath. We have all-ready established that this Splinter are capable of mistakes to, like Panick in the Sewers.. he is clever and analytical, but he makes mistake. And I am pretty sure he is going to make at least one, some kind of a mistake, when Karai gets to be involved.
What it is I don't know yet, if it's a mistake towards her because she is a genuine threat to his new family, or a mistake towards the turtles not explaining the situation probably.. I don't know, could go either way really, and both are very human mistakes.

And well, of cause he hasn't let go of the love of his life and his first child that died in a fire. No one would have.

XD Definitely. Though maybe when I said it was 'slower' I wasn't clear. I like the pacing. What I have started noticing though, is that the arcs aren't as overencompassing as the 2K3 version. If that makes any sense... But if felt like plot issues had more importance in the 2K3 version because they extended beyond their episode. Like Mikey never shutting up about winning the Battle Nexus XD That's a really really tiny, insignificant example, but it was very in character and made it feel as if the things that happened last week or last month, were still very important to what was going on. Actually, best example is Leo through out season 4, when he kind of went Batman on everyone >__> That actually started getting pretty scary in its own right because he completely changed, and for the longest while you weren't even sure if he was going to go back to how he was. Those sort of overarching plot points. But the show is still young and they have started expanding on elements from previous episodes, such as bringing in the Kraang power cell as the main power for the Shellraiser. Plus it's a very particular style of story telling, so this is just me being picky here :P I'll gladly admit that XD

Yeah, I'm really loving Splinter and the little glimpses we get into his personality. Him going Papa Bear against Leatherhead was yet another memorable scene XD aaaah,I can't wait for the TCRI episode. I feel like a lot of stuff is going to get answered, though maybe not for the stuff we're talking about XD

[MaximeLoonatic]

Honestly I am SO againts to the idea that Karai it's Miwa.
My reasons?
1) It's too much obious; even a five old kind would said ''That's Miwa, That's Miwa!!'' fur sure.
2) It would break the character. Let's think the possibility that she founds out; the man who asure her that he is her real father ends up to be her mother's murderer and her kidnapper, while her real father was the main target to destroy; that would make her more vulnerable and get a break down. The original Karai, it's serious, cold and an ''honorable'' ninja assassin.
3) If she's Miwa that would make her Leo's sister; and I like the Leo/Karai shipping!!

Of course there's no place that say that Miwa is dead neither... Maybe she survive and get a new family and home; of maybe she would came back as another personality... I think she could be Lotus Blossom.

[Shredded]

XD Definitely. Though maybe when I said it was 'slower' I wasn't clear. I like the pacing. What I have started noticing though, is that the arcs aren't as overencompassing as the 2K3 version. If that makes any sense... But if felt like plot issues had more importance in the 2K3 version because they extended beyond their episode. Like Mikey never shutting up about winning the Battle Nexus XD That's a really really tiny, insignificant example, but it was very in character and made it feel as if the things that happened last week or last month, were still very important to what was going on. Actually, best example is Leo through out season 4, when he kind of went Batman on everyone >__> That actually started getting pretty scary in its own right because he completely changed, and for the longest while you weren't even sure if he was going to go back to how he was. Those sort of overarching plot points. But the show is still young and they have started expanding on elements from previous episodes, such as bringing in the Kraang power cell as the main power for the Shellraiser. Plus it's a very particular style of story telling, so this is just me being picky here :P I'll gladly admit that XD

Yeah, I'm really loving Splinter and the little glimpses we get into his personality. Him going Papa Bear against Leatherhead was yet another memorable scene XD aaaah,I can't wait for the TCRI episode. I feel like a lot of stuff is going to get answered, though maybe not for the stuff we're talking about XD

Well.. all those cases first happened in later seasons. You know we need to A; establish a lot of things B; have things actually happning to the turtles, before we can go that far.

Leo could only go that hay-wire in season four or after, because first then do we get how out of character it is.

And I wouldn't even say this show hasn't done that, just on a smaller scale because, the show is so young. For example; There's Raphael also wanting to be leader in the very first episode, he keeps bringing it up a couple of times, and then finally just take over in "New girl in town." to realise Leo is the better fit.

One thing I also do like about this show, a lot, nothing seems to happen without a reason, every-thing that happened, every-thing that has been established, comes up again.
Falcon is a great example of that, he was not just a throw-away villain, he came back.
Snake-weed and Spiderbite are both sure to come back again as well. Things evolve beyond the episode they were introduced in.

Just look at the evolution of Stockman.. I mentioned it before, but it does go some-thing like this.

Copy machine -> Mousers -> unwilling Shredder servant.
Each time we see him he has been pushed a little further, and what happened in the last episode he appeared in affect directly how he acts in the current episode.

And they talk about past events when it matter to the story, there's just not that many past events to refer to yet. It'll come, this show sure works like that.


Oh TCRI is going to be a biggie.
And that should have been obvious as "The Pulveriser." is such an obvious "Breather episode."

The breather, is always that more silly episode the creators make, that is not meant to be in any-way great, but be a time for the audience to relax so we are ready for the epic episode that comes next, also the epic one will look bigger in comparison. It's an old trick, Particularly Teen Titans used it a lot, they always had a silly nilly episode right before their big season finales, it's no wonder this show works the same way ^^

And this Splinter sure has a big personality, it's lovely. And a wicked sense of humour..
I'm sure glad he is a martial arts teacher and his sons martial artists.. otherwise his behaviour could almost be considered child-abuse. He punches them all the freaking time or at send them right into walls.. or hammers his cane down on their toes.
Only martial art trainers can get away with behaviour like that on film.. for some reason. Don't know why really. It's just awesome when they do it.

[psychturtle]

Possible SPOILER!!




Anyone thinking that the Nick series is building up Karai as being Splinter's long lost daughter, in which Shredder molded?

Just had this notion after watching the Rise of the Turtles episode and thinking about possible storylines.

[Zulithe]

It is a theory that has been tossed around, yes. Personally I think it is also correct.

[Shredded]

urhm... we sort of all-ready have a long un-going threat about that see.

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=41214

And the most common response tense to be. "It's very obvious at this point, in fact the surprising bit would be if she isn't."

[Jester]

Have you read none of the other 27 Karai threads?
http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=41214

[Martin]

Have you read none of the other 27 Karai threads?

^ :lol:

If it does ends up being true though, it would take the Leo / Karai (/ Raph?) relationship to a whole new level of weirdness.

Before someone says anything I know there is nothing wrong about it since they are not related (I mean they were originally turtles, how could they be related?), but think about the kids! would they understand it just as easy? To them they would all be sons and daughters of splinter.

Side note: I'm still against turtle love though! as sad as it might be for them I just can't get over it. It was traumatic enough to see Leo bone Radical that one time. I don't want to go through that again :trazz: (I know this won't happen since it's a kid's show, but still)

[TheSmartOne]

Honestly I am SO againts to the idea that Karai it's Miwa.
My reasons?
1) It's too much obious; even a five old kind would said ''That's Miwa, That's Miwa!!'' fur sure.
2) It would break the character. Let's think the possibility that she founds out; the man who asure her that he is her real father ends up to be her mother's murderer and her kidnapper, while her real father was the main target to destroy; that would make her more vulnerable and get a break down. The original Karai, it's serious, cold and an ''honorable'' ninja assassin.
3) If she's Miwa that would make her Leo's sister; and I like the Leo/Karai shipping!!

Of course there's no place that say that Miwa is dead neither... Maybe she survive and get a new family and home; of maybe she would came back as another personality... I think she could be Lotus Blossom.

I agree with you on the obvious part. I mean, it didn't hit me for a while, but when the info clicked, I couldn't really see anything else happening. However I got to disagree with you on the 2nd point. Karai has spent 15 years living as Shredder's 'daughter'. So yes, on the one hand, the truth is likely going to be a massive shock. But on the other, living under Shredder isn't likely to have been easy. The first thing Karai would have probably learned is discipline of mind, if only to kind of deal with the fact that Dad isn't really interested in snuggles and piggy back rides. So she can really take it a lot of ways. She might decide to go after Shredder and become a sort of ally to the Turtles. She might decide that she hates Splinter anyway, because he didn't look hard enough for her or somehow 'let' it happen, and that's an easier way of coping with it all. Or she might decide to hell with everything and just decide to do her own thing. I don't think a breakdown will be on her agenda. She strikes me as a pretty strong, competent character so far.
Hahah, the 'Leo's sister' thing is starting to remind me a bit of Star Wars now xD. Though I think they're sort of safe from that awkward road, just because Leo isn't really related to Splinter. It's a family by bond thing, rather then family by blood. Still a little awkward, but they save themselves the trip down incest lane.

@Shredded
This is what I'm hoping XD I can't wait for the TCRI episode. This last week has practically killed me with anticipation.

I actually really like Splinters representation in this series. XD And I guess all the abuse is considered 'okay' because it's considered 'training'. "OH, THEY'RE LEARNING". I notice that Martial Arts teachers tend to do that... they'll let you make the mistake and then show you why the mistake is bad....
>_> Then again, my Shifu's doesn't throw you into a wall. But cartoon + It's Splinter xD?

[Shredded]

@Shredded
This is what I'm hoping XD I can't wait for the TCRI episode. This last week has practically killed me with anticipation.

I actually really like Splinters representation in this series. XD And I guess all the abuse is considered 'okay' because it's considered 'training'. "OH, THEY'RE LEARNING". I notice that Martial Arts teachers tend to do that... they'll let you make the mistake and then show you why the mistake is bad....
>_> Then again, my Shifu's doesn't throw you into a wall. But cartoon + It's Splinter xD?

One could maybe argue that Splinter hammering his cane down on Leos toe was just a little un-called for.
But, pff, who cares. It's fun! and physical abuse in Cartoons has always been fun! that's the only reason Tom and Jerry is still conisdered a classic. (poor cat.)

But yeah, the kind of abuse Splinter does is obviously very cartoony, which is why it works, and it's actually some genuinly funny slap-stick they have going on ones in a while.

I'm a bit curious now, that whole "Go ahead and make your mistake, it'll make you learn better." is that a genneral Samurai, budhism asian thing?

I have noticed that this show is actually trying to be a little more faithful to japaneese traditions and bring them a bit more into play, such as using real japaneese words, or having splinter lecture some real japaneese philosophies, and that's pretty cool.
Especially his entire view about always showing mercy, and try to reach people instead of pushing them away, seems to be very connected to budhism.
I am just not familiar with the. "Make your mistakes." attitude.. I totally agree with it. I've been saying for a couple of years.
"Teenage year sucks, exactly because you are supposed to make all the stupid mistakes those years so you wont make them again when it really matters in your adult life." It's just refreshing seeing some-one else saying it right on my tely screen.

Though what I also noticed is that Splinter is way more teaching the way of the Samurai than the Ninja.. he sort of always did in any incarnation. After all, ninjas are sort of assasins and merchinaries that sold their services to the highest bidder. I don't think they were that tied to honour.
Samurais how-ever, oh boy it was all about honour with them.

And i'm totally side-tracking, sorry -_-;

[TheSmartOne]

One could maybe argue that Splinter hammering his cane down on Leos toe was just a little un-called for.
But, pff, who cares. It's fun! and physical abuse in Cartoons has always been fun! that's the only reason Tom and Jerry is still conisdered a classic. (poor cat.)

But yeah, the kind of abuse Splinter does is obviously very cartoony, which is why it works, and it's actually some genuinly funny slap-stick they have going on ones in a while.

I'm a bit curious now, that whole "Go ahead and make your mistake, it'll make you learn better." is that a genneral Samurai, budhism asian thing?

I have noticed that this show is actually trying to be a little more faithful to japaneese traditions and bring them a bit more into play, such as using real japaneese words, or having splinter lecture some real japaneese philosophies, and that's pretty cool.
Especially his entire view about always showing mercy, and try to reach people instead of pushing them away, seems to be very connected to budhism.
I am just not familiar with the. "Make your mistakes." attitude.. I totally agree with it. I've been saying for a couple of years.
"Teenage year sucks, exactly because you are supposed to make all the stupid mistakes those years so you wont make them again when it really matters in your adult life." It's just refreshing seeing some-one else saying it right on my tely screen.

Though what I also noticed is that Splinter is way more teaching the way of the Samurai than the Ninja.. he sort of always did in any incarnation. After all, ninjas are sort of assasins and merchinaries that sold their services to the highest bidder. I don't think they were that tied to honour.
Samurais how-ever, oh boy it was all about honour with them.

And i'm totally side-tracking, sorry -_-;

Yeah, the Splinter-pain is more along the lines of slapstick, so I don't think it's meant to be taken seriously. I mean, the set up was pure comedy:
"By the way, I'm glad you're not mad 8D"
"...Who says I'm not mad D< *Say bye bye to feeling in toes*"

Or my favourite: "I may have shown you all you know, but that does not mean I've shown you all I know"
"*Poor Leo lying upside down beside a wall" >___o gladtohaveyouback,sensei..."

Sure, it's painful for Leo and his bro's, but it's clearly played up for fun and not meant to be taken seriously xD Though when Splinter tripped Mikey after Mikey did his whole 'fighting without thinking' demonstration, I kind of felt bad. That one was a bit of a dick move.

I think the whole "Teaching through Mistakes" thing is so central to martial arts because of its nature. Martial arts is about learning self defence (it's also about discipline and self-improvement, but I'm getting ahead of myself). And when it comes to self-defence, you don't get a whole lot of chances to get it right. Mistakes might not cost you in a training environment, but they will sure as hell cost you if you ever find yourself in a situation where you need to use it. Splinter is really an extreme example of teaching by example, because the worst a mistake will get me in class is that Shifu will suddenly invade my space, show me how I just managed to pin my own arms and then proceed to illustrate how if I did it properly, all the problems I brought upon myself won't even exist in the first place. So no flips or painful punches or wall throws XD
....Though Shifu does have this really bad habit of making us run drills and then pausing between the 9 count to go on a non-sequitur while we're all trying to keep our balance on a back leg that's dying in agony. It's a part of the conditioning, I guess. No pain, no gain, that kind of thing.

I'm not sure if the teaching through mistake things has direct tie in's to Buddhism, but you're right on the count of the show borrowing heavily from Japanese culture. I'm glad they made that tie in. It's really nice to hear the Japanese and to see parts of the culture at work. There's even a bit of a 'problems can't always be solved by force' angle that's at work, which I hope they push more. Being aware of the responsibility you have to use your skills wisely and not uselessly is another fundamental teaching in martial art.

I noticed that too, more so in the 2K3 show then in this one. If my history is not wrong (Which is entirely possible, because I'm being lazy and not looking up what I might have read/heard a really long time ago), ninjutsu was created by the peasants, to combat the growing tyranny of the samurais, since honour didn't really play in when you were dealing with the poor. Honour didn't really play a big part in it, since it was very much closer to guerilla warfare, rather then a Samurai who'd want to fight his opponent face to face. 2K3 Splinter and Leo were always saying things about honour...which I guess was to kind of make the ninja aspect of it more respectful... But Nick Splinter actually hit ninjutsu on the head when he said something like "Seek Victory, not Fairness." >__> Surprised the hell out of me to hear that coming out of his mouth, but it's closer to the spirit of ninjutsu then the previous iterations.

PSH, SIDETRACKING IS COOL XD I love getting side-tracked. Actually, this would make an interesting thread. I actually wanted to get a discussion going on the portrayal of Martial arts in the series, and the balance between kick butt action and non-violence.

[Shredded]

I really liked when Splinter threw Leo into that wall, it was really a moment of putting his son back in place. "oh so you think you'll one day be better than me do you?" ... hehe.
Also liked earlier in the episode when none of the turtles really dared to wake up Splinter, they all knew that who-ever did it, would be on the recieving end of pain the moment Splinter actually did wake up.
They didn't even dare to touch him.

Man now I can just imagine them as kids, walking in on sleeping Splinter and he on complete reflex turned around and had one of them in a perfect death-grip or some-thing. You do not want to wake sleeping Splinter oO;


You're right that. "Search victory not fairness." is strange to hear from Splinter.

I didn't think about it before just now, when he first said it I was just.
"That makes sense." .... heh.

But honestly, why I think it fits with this Splinter is that his number one objective is. "Keep my sons safe, make sure they are safe."

That's the number one objective, every-thing he teaches and does is to full-fill that.

He teaches about mercy, because he knows showing mercy probably will come to the turtles advantage... and he wouldn't want for any of them to deal with the guilt of actually killing any-one or getting in over their heads.

He says "don't search out fights, be wise about picking them." as he knows searching out fights can make things escalate and lead to more danger.

And in the case of "Panick in the sewers." he thought he did what he needed to do to keep his sons safest possible, when he found out that wasn't the case he apologised and laid another tactic.

.. and you just explained to me why I never took up martial arts..
That and I have the grace of a stork on rollerblades. Also my brain gets confused when you call your instructor. "Shifu." I keep thinking about Kung-fu panda! XD

... hmm, all though apparently that Shifu went to the same instructor school Splinter did. Teach your students... with pain!
At least Splinter hasn't thrown any of his turtles down a thousand stairs yet.


And yeah, side-tracking sure is fun. Especially when you find like-minded geeks :D

[TheSmartOne]

XDDD Yep. Splinter is badass! I know I say this about every moment, but the Rat King moment was one of my favourites:

"DONNIE, WHAT DO WE DO? YOU'RE THE SMART ONE!"
"Um....poke him?"
"....Alright, Mikey, you poke him."
"O__O WHY DO I HAVE TO DO IT?"
"Let's put it to a vote. Mikey,"
"Mikey."
"Mikey."
"Q-Q I WANT A RECOUNT!"

XD Poor Mikey. His brothers really threw him under that bus. On a slightly unrelated note, I seriously love the writing in this show. There are so many little scenes like this that just make me laugh so much. I guess you could say, aside from the whole conditioning aspect, that Splinter's just making sure the boys have a healthy mix of fear/respect for him as a teacher. Which...sounds terrible when I put it like that, but when you think back to school, I'm sure everyone can remember that one teacher that no one messed with. For whatever reason, this teacher was Chuck Norris incarnate. So Splinter's just making sure that his students always know who's boss. The father moments are separate.

Speaking of Father moments, I need a moment to fangirl here: LEO'S FRICKEN LINE IN THE RAT KING, DHFGAEFAE I ALMOST DIED WHEN HE WAS ALL LIKE ";_; Father, Please', with the big eyes, and goddammit, he looked so sad for that split second before he fricken noticed the sword fricken sticking at his face and JAKHFAFEADAFE. *COUGH*
....Okay, I'm done. That is all, NOTHING TO SEE HERE FOLKS.

Yeah. 'Seek victory, not fairness' had me confused. For a minute I couldn't believe Splinter was actually suggesting that Leo fight dirty... But then when I thought about it, it made sense. They are ninjas. And Splinter's not only they're teacher, but their father. Panic in the Sewers highlighted his concern for them very nicely. Of course he's going to teach them to not only defend themselves, but to survive.

xD Haha, you should. It's fun. Though honestly, it really is about the place. I did Kyokushin karate for a year when I was in high school, and while I loved it, the environment was kind of stale. This place I'm at now really feels like family. Everyone's wonderful and so nice and always eager to help you with your technique. It makes you want to go and learn and improve. Also, the reason I call my teacher Shifu instead of Sensei is because I'm learning Wing Chun, which is a style of Kung Fu ;) Shifu is the term for master/teacher in Chinese (Actually, I realized now that we actually pronounce it more Sifu, so we probably use the Cantonese term).
XD I wonder what would happen if I told Shifu he reminds me a bit of Master Splinter. I think he'd take it well? It can't be anything other then a compliment.

On a completely random note. Chris Bradford looked like Chuck Norris when he was human XDDDDD

[Sleepingseeker]

What I like is that they've done a good job so far setting up the possibilities of going to another Dimension and/or Space. It's integral to the story, so if it happens, it won't be a "Woah, wait, what? We're in....Okay, we're in space..." moment.

O_O And yes... Those five minutes in the Gauntlet were intense. I really really really really want to see Shredder make his next move. The fact that Leo and the others escaped /ONLY/ because Shredder got distracted is actually pretty chilling. Actually, Shredder's portrayal on a whole has been beautifully done. They're keeping him mysterious, dark and scary. The fact that there are fewer characters is also nice. Like you said, it lets everyone breath. It also keeps the filler characters to a minimum. Anyone who serves a significant role on screen is going to be important, if for the sole reason that it takes so much work just to get a character modelled and textured XD They're not going to let that work go to waste.



I knoooow, it's going to be big, man! I was also thinking about that. The whole 'biological daughter' vs 'Adopted sons' deal. The turtles might even feel sort of threatened by the new development, considering that Splinter's obviously told them a lot about his old life. Splinter even keeps the picture of his wife and Miwa in the dojo. It's not something he's let go of just yet and though I really doubt Splinter would love them any less, they are teenagers and they're probably not going to approach the situation with much logic. They'd probably be worried that he'd just decide that's that and ditch them or something. In terms of the trust issue, Raph, Donnie and Mikey are going to be the hardest to win over, since Leo seems to think she's got some good in her (plus that little crush), and Splinter's judgement might get clouded once he finds out the truth. Maybe.... hard to tell with Splinter >_>

I agree with you about Shredder. They're giving him the mystery and suspense around his character that makes him seem more and more menacing. I, too, found it chilling that the only reason they escaped Shredder was because he got distracted. Very chilling, indeed. I love how the pacing is, as well. No need to rush things.

[TheSmartOne]

I agree with you about Shredder. They're giving him the mystery and suspense around his character that makes him seem more and more menacing. I, too, found it chilling that the only reason they escaped Shredder was because he got distracted. Very chilling, indeed. I love how the pacing is, as well. No need to rush things.

Yep. This Shredder's by far the scariest. They're doing a phenomenal job with the directing for his scenes- Keeping him in the shadow, keeping him in armor, showing only close ups of his eyes and that scarring on his face. He feels like the baddest thing to rock the block in New York and so far, he's holding onto that title with both hands. Shredder and Splinter going head it head is going to be the most epic thing ever. I really want to learn more about how things were when Yoshi and Saki were friends. I forget which episode, but there was actually a photo of the two of them in the army, so they were really close before the whole Tang Shen thing.

[Shredded]

XD Poor Mikey. His brothers really threw him under that bus. On a slightly unrelated note, I seriously love the writing in this show. There are so many little scenes like this that just make me laugh so much. I guess you could say, aside from the whole conditioning aspect, that Splinter's just making sure the boys have a healthy mix of fear/respect for him as a teacher. Which...sounds terrible when I put it like that, but when you think back to school, I'm sure everyone can remember that one teacher that no one messed with. For whatever reason, this teacher was Chuck Norris incarnate. So Splinter's just making sure that his students always know who's boss. The father moments are separate.

Speaking of Father moments, I need a moment to fangirl here: LEO'S FRICKEN LINE IN THE RAT KING, DHFGAEFAE I ALMOST DIED WHEN HE WAS ALL LIKE ";_; Father, Please', with the big eyes, and goddammit, he looked so sad for that split second before he fricken noticed the sword fricken sticking at his face and JAKHFAFEADAFE. *COUGH*
....Okay, I'm done. That is all, NOTHING TO SEE HERE FOLKS.

Yeah. 'Seek victory, not fairness' had me confused. For a minute I couldn't believe Splinter was actually suggesting that Leo fight dirty... But then when I thought about it, it made sense. They are ninjas. And Splinter's not only they're teacher, but their father. Panic in the Sewers highlighted his concern for them very nicely. Of course he's going to teach them to not only defend themselves, but to survive.

xD Haha, you should. It's fun. Though honestly, it really is about the place. I did Kyokushin karate for a year when I was in high school, and while I loved it, the environment was kind of stale. This place I'm at now really feels like family. Everyone's wonderful and so nice and always eager to help you with your technique. It makes you want to go and learn and improve. Also, the reason I call my teacher Shifu instead of Sensei is because I'm learning Wing Chun, which is a style of Kung Fu ;) Shifu is the term for master/teacher in Chinese (Actually, I realized now that we actually pronounce it more Sifu, so we probably use the Cantonese term).
XD I wonder what would happen if I told Shifu he reminds me a bit of Master Splinter. I think he'd take it well? It can't be anything other then a compliment.

On a completely random note. Chris Bradford looked like Chuck Norris when he was human XDDDDD


Lets not forget... Splinter has all alone, been raising four boys
All of which were the exactly same age!
How the hell do you keep those in order when you are all alone in the sewer! he couldn't even call a baby sitter or a friend for help.

Only one option really... put himself in respect, be strict and give the turtles very little choice when there are things they need to do.
Such as cleaning up, not skate-board in the lair, keep order ext.
Splinter is the only stable force in a mad-house! Just imagine the time he had to keep up with four turtles whom were six years old? or eight or ten.. I wouldn't blame him for being cranky ones in a while.

I do like the smaller warmer moments where Splinter really cares for his sons and give them advice.
It's nice that we can see so clearly how much he loves them. Which is kind of a neccesity in this show that that is absolutely clear, since.. the big elephant in the room, regarding this show, kind of is that Splinter is just sitting around in his room doing nothing while the turtles are facing all of the danger alone <_<
I mean, the reasoning. "They need to make mistakes on their own." can only go that far.
There's the turtles chasing down crooks, which they can handle fine on their own, and there's the turtles breaking into a very dangerous alien building, filled with enemies that can and will kill them.

So yeah, elephant in the room.. it becomes easier to ignore it when we know Splinter cares.
But dangit, I can't wait to see him more in action! I was at the panel with the creators of the show back in May in London, and I remember them very specificually saying.
"We wanted to make Splinter younger so he can fight more along-side the turtles."
Okay fair enough, I like that... At this point he is the Splinter whom has fought the least along-side the turtles! Both the Fred Wolf Splinter and the 2k3 Splinter had been way more active at this point!

Oh well, they are building up to it on purpose, and it does feel very special when he finally does fight.
I just.. I like this splinter so much, and I would really like to see him being more pro-active in some ways.
I know this isn't called "The Splinter show." but "Teenage mutant ninja turtles." so it's theoretically a good thing he is pushed to the back-ground.. I don't know.. :/

Njah, I got enough comradery with my music and theatre! I'm a comedian and a pianist, not a martial artist, and that's actually fine with me.


And yep, the writing is absolutely phenomenal, especially in character exhanges.
And yep, Bradford looks like Chuck Norris X)

[TheSmartOne]

Lets not forget... Splinter has all alone, been raising four boys
All of which were the exactly same age!
How the hell do you keep those in order when you are all alone in the sewer! he couldn't even call a baby sitter or a friend for help.

Only one option really... put himself in respect, be strict and give the turtles very little choice when there are things they need to do.
Such as cleaning up, not skate-board in the lair, keep order ext.
Splinter is the only stable force in a mad-house! Just imagine the time he had to keep up with four turtles whom were six years old? or eight or ten.. I wouldn't blame him for being cranky ones in a while.

I do like the smaller warmer moments where Splinter really cares for his sons and give them advice.
It's nice that we can see so clearly how much he loves them. Which is kind of a neccesity in this show that that is absolutely clear, since.. the big elephant in the room, regarding this show, kind of is that Splinter is just sitting around in his room doing nothing while the turtles are facing all of the danger alone <_<
I mean, the reasoning. "They need to make mistakes on their own." can only go that far.
There's the turtles chasing down crooks, which they can handle fine on their own, and there's the turtles breaking into a very dangerous alien building, filled with enemies that can and will kill them.

So yeah, elephant in the room.. it becomes easier to ignore it when we know Splinter cares.
But dangit, I can't wait to see him more in action! I was at the panel with the creators of the show back in May in London, and I remember them very specificually saying.
"We wanted to make Splinter younger so he can fight more along-side the turtles."
Okay fair enough, I like that... At this point he is the Splinter whom has fought the least along-side the turtles! Both the Fred Wolf Splinter and the 2k3 Splinter had been way more active at this point!

Oh well, they are building up to it on purpose, and it does feel very special when he finally does fight.
I just.. I like this splinter so much, and I would really like to see him being more pro-active in some ways.
I know this isn't called "The Splinter show." but "Teenage mutant ninja turtles." so it's theoretically a good thing he is pushed to the back-ground.. I don't know.. :/

Njah, I got enough comradery with my music and theatre! I'm a comedian and a pianist, not a martial artist, and that's actually fine with me.


And yep, the writing is absolutely phenomenal, especially in character exhanges.
And yep, Bradford looks like Chuck Norris X)

Dude, we'll never know XD The only answer I can come up with is that you just don't mess with Splinter. Ever. If he can raise four mutant turtle boys, teach them ninjutsu and then somehow instil a sense of discipline, respect and order into them, then Splinter is God, that is all XDD
But yeah, I noticed that Splinter is pretty strict. He kind of has reason to be though, and he's not really strict in an overly mean way... It really is to provide that sort of stability. Now I want to see a Turtle Tot's episode. I actually really liked those in the 2K3 version XD

I love those moments too. And to answer two points with one stone, I think the show is really trying to develop the fact that there are two distinct sides to Splinter: There's the Grand Ninjutsu Master, who needs to be about order and strictness and discipline, and then there's the Father, who easily senses out when his sons are down and makes sure he gives them all the love and advice and encouragement they need. He keeps these sides separate, because the Father can't interfere with the Ninjutsu Master and all the training he has to put the boys through to ensure they'll remain strong and survive. I think that's the main reason he stays behind, even though the Turtles are doing incredibly dangerous stuff. I don't believe he's not worried in the slightest. But he has to put back that worry. They made a promise to help April, and the city will probably be in trouble if no one stops the Kraang. So he has to put his concern as a father aside, and just remain confident that he's taught them all they need to be successful.

xD I kind of dig younger Splinter, and I'm definitely not concerned with the fact that they're keeping him in the background. Like you said, the fact that we haven't really seen Splinter fight much makes the moments where he does fight all the more special. When he actually walked in to take on Leatherhead, it was an epic moment of "o____o Ohdamn, we're going to see SPLINTER have a go...".
Same thing when we saw him fight against the Turtles and completely kick their shells. We're getting these little snippets of how good he is and these snippets are keeping us interested in him. Just imagine what it's going to be like when he fights the Shredder O___O

XD YAAAY, PIANO. I love the piano. I don't know how to play much, but I practice the heck out of what I do know >D
...I should probably learn more songs, I think I'm starting to annoy my family XDDD

Yep. Nick gets a gold star for phenomenal dialogue and really fun, brotherly quips. XD And for making Bradford look like Chuck Norris. I want to see some Chris Bradford jokes now...

"They say Chris Bradford is so tough, there's no chin under his beard. There's just another fist"

"Chris Bradford destroyed the periodic table because Chris Bradford only recognizes the Element of Surprise"

"Nothing can escape the gravity of a black hole, except for Chris Bradford. Chris Bradford eats black holes. They taste like chicken"

[miru]

I think Miwa became Pimiko or Lotus, or maybe got mutated and is Alopex.

[n-zero]

The description for next week's episode (Karai's Vendetta) could be implying some kind of update on this theory:

While the Turtles are infiltrating an undersea Kraang base, the Foot Clan attempts to capture April, when the Shredder discovers she's not just an ally, but also the key to the Kraang's overall plan to take earth. When Karai tries to take her captive, however she learns something that could change everything about her, April and the Turtles.

[drgon78]

I would be fine with Karai being Splinter's daughter but I don't want her to become a mutant though.

[Atren]

The description for next week's episode (Karai's Vendetta) could be implying some kind of update on this theory:

While it might hint that, but then why no Splinter or Shredder mentioned? I mean that is something that could change a lot between her and those two, opposed to turtles and especially April.

It could easily be she learns link between April and turtles. So far that is not known, right?

[JTH]

It's a kids show, don't overthink things.

Kids won't know what is going on until it happens. Trust the obvious, remember that. ;)

[Powder]

It's a kids show, don't overthink things.

Kids won't know what is going on until it happens. Trust the obvious, remember that. ;)

Way to insult both the show and all kids. Maybe you were oblivious as a child, but plenty of others can follow plot set-ups.

[CyberCubed]

Indeed, the best cartoons are the ones who don't dumb things down for kids.

Batman: TAS was aimed at 7 year olds yet its stories were sophisticated enough for adults. I think the bar has been raised for cartoons...especially since all the people writing them are now writing the shows they wish they watched when they were kids.

Its almost as if cartoons are now written as much for adults and kids at the same time.

[Drose18]

It's a kids show, don't overthink things.

Kids won't know what is going on until it happens. Trust the obvious, remember that. ;)

You'd be suprised... kids these days... :roll:

[BubblyShell22]

Kids know a lot more than we give them credit for these days.

[Crocapete]

I thought so too!!

[CyberCubed]

Apparently our Japanese speaking friends say the word Harmony translates to Miwa.

In other words its now confirmed. I can't believe they put in that subtle hint that only people who speak Japanese would know. That's why this show is great.

[Jester]

I know Google Translate ain't the best, but the word it gives for "harmony" is 調和which comes out phonetically as Chōwa.

[LivingMutagen]

Wikipedia is usually better and correct about languages than Google Translate. Got this from Miwa Wikipedia page, four meanings:

Miwa can be written using different kanji characters and can mean:
三和 "three, harmony"
三輪 "three, wheel/ring"
美和 "beauty, harmony"
美輪 "beauty, wheel/ring"
The given name can also be written in hiragana or katakana.

[Jester]

I stand corrected. Thanks for the actual info and not just a post that claims to be truth.

[BubblyShell22]

Yeah, I loved that subtle confirmation of it that only some of us really got. Nick is awesome for doing that.

[snake]

It's a kids show, don't overthink things.

Kids won't know what is going on until it happens. Trust the obvious, remember that. ;)

Oh really? :roll:

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I stand corrected. Thanks for the actual info and not just a post that claims to be truth.

At first I thought you were being sarcastic, but on a second reading, I see that this is sincere, we should all of us make note of the day Jester admitted to being wrong about something! :tlol:

On a serious note though... I'm convinced that Karai will in fact turn out to be Miwa, raised by Shredder after he killed Tang Shen.

[Coola Yagami]

Given that Karai basically called herself Miwa.... yeah.. it's kind of a given at this point.

[Atren]

Given that Karai basically called herself Miwa.... yeah.. it's kind of a given at this point.

Why would Karai call herself Miwa? That would strongly hint her to know about Miwa and that does not fit Shredder lied to Karai theory. Not that I would mind, personally I never been supporter of that theory.

[Cryomancer]

Sort of holding out hope that it's all red herrings and she actually has nothing to do with her. Hopefully with the TMNT thinking strongly that she is, and confirming she is not somehow. Would be a good vehicle for a lesson about not making assumptions and coming to accept loss and whatnot.

[BubblyShell22]

Why would Karai call herself Miwa? That would strongly hint her to know about Miwa and that does not fit Shredder lied to Karai theory. Not that I would mind, personally I never been supporter of that theory.

She told April her name was Harmony, and that's what Miwa means in Japanese. So, she basically confirmed that she's Miwa without actually realizing it.

[Atren]

She told April her name was Harmony, and that's what Miwa means in Japanese. So, she basically confirmed that she's Miwa without actually realizing it.

I know, but I do not believe in such coincidence. It complicates things and does not confirm or deny that she is Miwa. It does hint she knows about Miwa so assuming Karai is Miwa...does she know she is Miwa or just that such person existed?

[BubblyShell22]

Yes, it does confirm it because Miwa means Harmony in Japanese, and that's the fake name Karai gave April. She may not know that Miwa means that in Japanese and was just giving an alias so as not to reveal her true identity, but there are some viewers who do know Japanese and are able to pick up this hint that she's Miwa. It's a subtle hint the writers are giving to us, and I like it.

As for April, she doesn't know that Karai is Miwa at all. She does know that Splinter had a daughter, but that's it.

[Mona_Lisa]

Yes, it does confirm it because Miwa means Harmony in Japanese, and that's the fake name Karai gave April. She may not know that Miwa means that in Japanese and was just giving an alias so as not to reveal her true identity, but there are some viewers who do know Japanese and are able to pick up this hint that she's Miwa. It's a subtle hint the writers are giving to us, and I like it.

As for April, she doesn't know that Karai is Miwa at all. She does know that Splinter had a daughter, but that's it.

^I agree,
Also Karai May not even know Spinter had a daughter at all.... She only knows what she has been tould!;)

[Leofan26]

If this turns out true, which is starting to seem more and more likely, wonder what will happen? What will her reactions be? I don't know if shey'll join the turtles right away, plus she and Leo still have to work things out and I'm sure it will take some time to get used to for the turtles. Things will get crazy when if this information happens.

[LH]

If this turns out true, which is starting to seem more and more likely, wonder what will happen? What will her reactions be? I don't know if shey'll join the turtles right away, plus she and Leo still have to work things out and I'm sure it will take some time to get used to for the turtles. Things will get crazy when if this information happens.

I'm interested to see how this will work out as well. I mean, Karai may not like Shredder, but she has spent her whole life with him, and her actions at the dock implies she loves him like a father. I wonder what she will think of him if she learns Splinter, her father's life-long enemy, is her true father. I mean, imagine spending your whole life with a family and then being told that not only are they not your real family, but that they stole you and murdered your mother...

[Atren]

I have forgotten, but have they actually said how Teng Shen died? As I do not remember Shredder murdering her.

[LH]

I have forgotten, but have they actually said how Teng Shen died? As I do not remember Shredder murdering her.

It wasn't said specifically, but it can be assumed she died as a result of the fire, and Shredder was responsible.

[Ninjawolf]

Karai is probably her codename (like Saki/Shredder) or the name he gave her... odds are high she's Miwa we've had plenty of hints and the Harmony/Miwa thing is probably not a councidence

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I'm interested to see how this will work out as well. I mean, Karai may not like Shredder, but she has spent her whole life with him, and her actions at the dock implies she loves him like a father. I wonder what she will think of him if she learns Splinter, her father's life-long enemy, is her true father. I mean, imagine spending your whole life with a family and then being told that not only are they not your real family, but that they stole you and murdered your mother...

This was the premise of Tangled... she's not gonna like him anymore if she finds out, duh.

[LH]

This was the premise of Tangled... she's not gonna like him anymore if she finds out, duh.

Tangled! *smacks forehead* Why didn't I think of that! :tlol:

[The Sewer Lord]

I believe she is.

*Splinter never found Miwa's dead body.
*Karai is April's age and Splinter stated Miwa should be April's age.
*Karai is abnormally tall for her age. Splinter is too.
*Karai says to April her name is Harmony. "Miwa" means "harmony" in Japanese.
*April's fan shines on Karai. This could be a foreshadowment.

From these reasons, I deduced that Miwa is Karai.

[mscsds]

New theory guys.

What if karai is Splinters daughter, its been shown that splinter had a daughter, Yoshi and Oroku Saki feud over Shen ended up with Yoshi house been burnt down
with Shen and daughter Miwa inside.

What If in his defeat Oroku Saki seen Miwa still alive in the rumble and raised her as his own.

[Berserker]

You're new here buddy, and I hate to tell ya, but this has been widespread knowledge since the series came out and it's been discussed quite a bit already.

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

If you'd like to discuss this theory, please check this thread: http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=41214

But Berserker's right: It's been discussed at length already.

[LH]

Yeah.. But hey, Welcome to the Drome! :tsmile:

[redsai4lex]

There are those moments like when Shredder tries to remind Karai of what Yoshi "did to them"... Just as if he led Karai to believe Yoshi is responsible for her mother's death. Plus, in many versions Karai is adopted... This version would be the same, but just with a twist :twink:

I believe she is.

*Splinter never found Miwa's dead body.
*Karai is April's age and Splinter stated Miwa should be April's age.
*Karai is abnormally tall for her age. Splinter is too.
*Karai says to April her name is Harmony. "Miwa" means "harmony" in Japanese.
*April's fan shines on Karai. This could be a foreshadowment.

From these reasons, I deduced that Miwa is Karai.


My brothers and I agree with this theory for these very reasons... We'll said ! :tsmile:

[Mona_Lisa]

Yeah.. But hey, Welcome to the Drome! :tsmile:

Yeah, welcome dude!!!!:tgrin:

[marcelangelo]

feel like at home and leave your shell by the door, compadre!;)
welcome to the terror-- um technodrome!;)

[JonesyKitty]

I totally just thought about this today, I think Karai is for sure Miwa. it all adds up

[Luckyday]

At this point, the "secret" needs to be reveal at the beginning of season 2 because reaction will wane away from this :teek: into this :trolleye:. I remembered when I was reading Naruto and how lukewarm I felt when I found out that Hokage was Naruto's dad and this was after reading nearly 200 chapters of it dancing around the subject.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I totally just thought about this today, I think Karai is for sure Miwa. it all adds up

It should be obvious to those of us watching this who are adults. After all, it is a kids' show. :tlol:

[Electric]

sorry for bringing up this thread, but i just rewatched karais vendetta and when april pulls out her tessen, light relects splinters symbol onto karai, in my opinion, basically the writers showing us she is miwa. I honestly think she is, and hope they bring it up in the finale

[Martin]

sorry for bringing up this thread, but i just rewatched karais vendetta and when april pulls out her tessen, light relects splinters symbol onto karai, in my opinion, basically the writers showing us she is miwa. I honestly think she is, and hope they bring it up in the finale

It's been brought up in the past, and I think the general consensus was that the writers were indeed foreshadowing the fact that karai was miwa. As to it being revealed in the finale, idk. It'd be nice, but they'll probably save it up for later.

[Luckyday]

More they keep as a secret, the more obvious it looks in which it comes to a point when it's finally revealed and the response of the consensus is a sarcastic "You don't say.":x

[Electric]

More they keep as a secret, the more obvious it looks in which it comes to a point when it's finally revealed and the response of the consensus is a sarcastic "You don't say.":x

im in a state of denial right now where ive decided she is miwa, and i will not accept otherwise until miwa is pronounced dead or shows up as someone else:D

[BubblyShell22]

Not only did the clan symbol shine on Karai, but she used the name Harmony as her alias, which is what Miwa translates to in Japanese. So, yeah, she's definitely Miwa.