Have the Nick TMNT actually accomplished anything?

[Andrew NDB]

I was thinking about this the other day. Seems like every bad guy and mutant they've ever encountered is still very much on the loose and at large. Perhaps the Nick Turtles should cut their losses and just stay in the sewer from now on?

[Cure]

Then there'd be no show, dummy.

[Irishmile]

Sure they have not captured any baddies.. But

They saved April
Stopped a Mutagen bomb
Saved people from becoming plant food
Saved Murakami
Stopped rats from taking over the city
stopped mousers from stealing things

and ate pizza.

[Gyt Kaliba]

That and I'd argue that they've actually tried pretty hard to put down Snakeweed for good, but that guy's apparently pretty hard to kill. Even breaking him into a thousand pieces didn't work.

I mean, they could always try stabbing that exposed heart but...kid's show. Can't realistically expect that level of violence in it (I've honestly been pretty pleasantly surprised by how violent they have gotten with that character).

[snake]

Aren't they trying to build up to a league of villians kind of thing, if thats the case it's more fitting to have villians escape.

[CyberCubed]

They stopped the Worldwide Genome project, stopped a mutagen bomb, and saved April from the Kraang.

But...they're kids. Splinter is still teaching them and they have a lot to learn. This is the youngest they've even been portrayed after all.

[plastroncafe]

Aren't you usually the one who's against the idea of the Turtles being super heroes, Andrew?

[Jephael]

This is why I prefer more mainstream super heroes like Superman or Spider-Man. They can be seen by the public and actually manage to put the badguys in jail, which happened a little back in the original Ninja Turtles cartoon. But on this show they're always going up against mutants and aliens but the public is always left in the dark.

[Andrew NDB]

Aren't you usually the one who's against the idea of the Turtles being super heroes, Andrew?

Well, they're certainly not ninjas in the Nick show, so they might as well be something.

[gobo]

I think what you're trying to get at is that the status quo is nearly identical in every ep.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Well, they're certainly not ninjas in the Nick show, so they might as well be something.

Funny, since they're doing a pretty good job of keeping in the shadows away from prying eyes, and are practicing actual (apparently anyway) martial arts katas in their training all the time...but then again, I'm getting the feeling you just wanted to gripe about the show here anyway.

[CyberCubed]

This is why I prefer more mainstream super heroes like Superman or Spider-Man. They can be seen by the public and actually manage to put the badguys in jail, which happened a little back in the original Ninja Turtles cartoon. But on this show they're always going up against mutants and aliens but the public is always left in the dark.

That's actually why I prefer TMNT. Even in the OT they would hide and run as soon as the cops came and didn't want to be recognized by the general public.

[Donatello19]

Well, they're certainly not ninjas in the Nick show, so they might as well be something.

Are you kidding me? How are they not ninjas? If you want to see turtles that aren't ninjas, go watch the OT.

[plastroncafe]

Well, they're certainly not ninjas in the Nick show, so they might as well be something.

Aww muffin. How are those sour grapes of yours tasting?

[snake]

Are you kidding me? How are they not ninjas? If you want to see turtles that aren't ninjas, go watch the OT.

Exactly, they didn't care about not being seen, and didn't Leonardo go to a gym or fitness center in one episode:lol:

[Andrew NDB]

Are you kidding me? How are they not ninjas?

They pull their punches. "Non-killing ninjas" is an oxymoron. It's fine because it's a children's show and the entertainment factor as such is high... but let's call a spade a spade.

if you want to see turtles that aren't ninjas, go watch the OT.

Why would I want to go and do something horrible like that?

[NinjaMan]

Andrew I asked this as an honest question. What would you do if in charge? This a cartoon for kids. They can't kill everything they fight or else there would be no show. So tell me, what would you do to a kids show on a kids channel?

[CyberCubed]

I believe this argument is more suited for the IDW turtles. They haven't accomplished much either and don't kill when they should.

At least the cartoons have the, "it's for kids" excuse.

[Andrew NDB]

Andrew I asked this as an honest question. What would you do if in charge? This a cartoon for kids. They can't kill everything they fight or else there would be no show. So tell me, what would you do to a kids show on a kids channel?

My point is that every single threat they've encountered is still out there -- they resolve nothing. If somehow a threat was captured, or imprisoned, or their mutation reversed or something... but every time with everything from "Snakeweed" all the way to "Justin," it goes down exactly the same way: big fight, the Turtles win, and the bad guy escapes into the shadows.

Why even bother then, right?

I believe this argument is more suited for the IDW turtles. They haven't accomplished much either and don't kill when they should.

At least the cartoons have the, "it's for kids" excuse.

Hm... you do have a point there.

[Donatello19]

My point is that every single threat they've encountered is still out there -- they resolve nothing. If somehow a threat was captured, or imprisoned, or their mutation reversed or something... but every time with everything from "Snakeweed" all the way to "Justin," it goes down exactly the same way: big fight, the Turtles win, and the bad guy escapes into the shadows.

Why even bother then, right?



Hm... you do have a point there.

Well what exactly do you expect them to do about it?

[Andrew NDB]

Well what exactly do you expect them to do about it?

What do you mean? I offered up 3 possibilities in my last post.

Odd thought -- from playing Batman: Arkham Asylum, I'm remembering the Killer Croc sewer lair where he was kept captive. It might not be too unreasonable for the Nick Turtles -- somewhat in that vein -- to make a bunch of holding cells for evildoing mutants somewhere deep in the sewers.

[ToTheNines]

They pull their punches. "Non-killing ninjas" is an oxymoron. It's fine because it's a children's show and the entertainment factor as such is high... but let's call a spade a spade.

Mikey did try to cut that Kraangdroid in the alley thinking he was human. And they probably would have killed Shredder if they could have.

Other than The Kraang and the Foot, none of their enemies really deserve to die. At least I don't think so.

[Jester]

Aww muffin. How are those sour grapes of yours tasting?
Hey, that's my job!!

The jabs at the super-serious Andrew...not eating sour grapes...

[Master Splinter]

Odd thought -- from playing Batman: Arkham Asylum, I'm remembering the Killer Croc sewer lair where he was kept captive. It might not be too unreasonable for the Nick Turtles -- somewhat in that vein -- to make a bunch of holding cells for evildoing mutants somewhere deep in the sewers.

There was those "cells" they were in during that mini web motion comic thing, sounds reasonable. Or they get some ally that can do something with them, cause after all they're teenagers.

-ms

[Galactus]

They pull their punches. "Non-killing ninjas" is an oxymoron. It's fine because it's a children's show and the entertainment factor as such is high... but let's call a spade a spade.

I may have missed something but...has any character on the show said they pull their punches or that they don't kill?

Pretty sure the turtles have tried to kill Snakeweed and were he any other character would be dead however he's pretty unique in that he can survive a lot of punishment.

The only time the turtles have made a point of this is choosing not to kill a defensless Bradford in cold blood. If I remember correctly later on in that same episode one of the turtles kicks a Foot Ninja off the roof, the same fall they believed would kill Bradford. Obviously how said Foot Ninja lands is handled offscreen so we don't know if he survived, was hurt or landed on his feet but the intent for the turtles to kill is still there. They simply didn't want to kill in cold blood - a decision the Mirage turtles have taken more than once.

Most fictional vigilantes/heroes/crime fighters/adventurers don't achieve much when it comes down to it. They may send the bad guy to jail but he escape, they may kill the other bad guy but he gets ressurected by worms.

[Cure]

playing Batman: Arkham Asylum,

There's your problem. That game is better off forgotten.

[Konchadunga]

Andrew is way too nitpicky, but I admit I don't see much point to villains getting away when they're essentially forgotten after the first episode they appear and are defeated. If it was Shredder always getting away, that would be different, because he's supposed to be tough, and obviously he's going to keep coming back. Yet if a villain is just introduced for a filler episode, then why not have him stay down? It would be somewhat sensible if the Turtles at least tied up a villain and left him for the cops subtly; he could escape later if they ever need him. Shell; even in the Fred Wolf show, they did that with Baxter Stockman.

For what it's worth, the shying away from killing isn't total in this show. As mentioned, the Turtles tried to kill Snakeweed, and I'm pretty sure Leatherhead actually did kill those Kraang.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

Andrew is not too "nitpicky," he's basically a Mirage purist who is going to hold a very high standard for anything that isn't black and white Mirage TMNT. While I don't always agree with his opinions, he does have a right to them.

[CyberCubed]

Andrew is not too "nitpicky," he's basically a Mirage purist who is going to hold a very high standard for anything that isn't black and white Mirage TMNT. While I don't always agree with his opinions, he does have a right to them.

Indeed, but he knows good and well the cartoons are for children.

His complaints are valid for IDW TMNT though, because those are supposed to be aimed at adults and don't have to censor themselves for kids.

[Konchadunga]

Andrew is not too "nitpicky," he's basically a Mirage purist who is going to hold a very high standard for anything that isn't black and white Mirage TMNT. While I don't always agree with his opinions, he does have a right to them.

Having a right to one's opinions doesn't mean someone should teabag people with them, and that is exactly what posting his completely alien standards in a place that obviously doesn't share them qualifies as. He's just as obnoxious as the Fred Wolf purists, though granted a great deal smarter.

Sorry, but bringing up a "They're not ninjas because they don't kill people" point with regard to a show that can't help that is completely stupid. Venting about how a cartoon can't be violent when if it did, it wouldn't be made, is completely stupid. Here's what Andrew and other Mirage purists seem unable to realize; the Mirage books were indie for a reason: Because overall, most adults would not buy into a series with this title; regardless of what its plot was like. You can put in character development, put in violence, try to be serious or at least, darkly comical, but the majority of the world is just going to regard it as a huge joke. Why do you think a lot of society is still ignorant enough to refer to any story told through sequential images as "comics," despite that they can convey far more types of stories than just simple, episodic humor? Because they don't recognize that this medium can do that. I'm not saying I don't resent that; I do immensely. I all-but refuse to use the word "comic" when describing graphic novels. Yet I have enough sense and objectivity to hate the game rather than the players.

Here's the options you're stuck with when you make something called Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles:
1) Target a small amount of adults, in which case you'll do okay, no matter the subject.
2) Target a mass of children, and you'll probably do well, though your amount of freedom will be limited.
3) Target adults nostalgic for their childhood, in which case you can do adult stuff, so long as you call back to that childhood.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I don't know that Fred Wolf purists are more obnoxious than Mirage purists, that's a bit of a generalization. Both have the capacity to be obnoxious. I've RARELY felt this way about Andrew, though.

I wouldn't say his standards are completely "alien." That's ridiculous. They're bound to be rare on a forum that was created to CELEBRATE the Fred Wolf cartoon, but for some people, it is hard to celebrate the Mirage comics without in some way bashing the Fred Wolf series. Like it or not, the Fred Wolf series DID butcher the Mirage series. A LOT. And now we've got all of these weird "hybrid" series that use elements from both.

[Konchadunga]

No; the Fred Wolf show divulged. It had no choice but to become tamer; it was a very conservative decade and the ability to convey violence would always be checked, but give the show credit for at least taking shots at its own stupidity in a way most 1980s shows never did, and trying to become its own fun thing. Also, this show doesn't fall nearly as hard into that pit.

You know who "butchered" the Mirage series? Mirage purist numero uno himself, Peter Laird. Thanks to his ridiculous my-way-or-the-highway philosophy, he resolved to sell the license without telling anyone else at Mirage, meaning that unless he ever gets off his ass, the Mirage series is dead. Meanwhile, IDW, while writing a series that paid homage to the Fred Wolf series, also was nice enough to republish the Mirage series and give it a wider distribution than ever before. The Nick show also keeps its references to the past very even between the Fred Wolf and Mirage series So who are really the bigger villains here?

No joke; purists of anything can suck me, and if I ran this forum I'd ban every single one of them.

[gobo]

Have the Nick TMNT actually accomplished anything?

I guess you missed that episode where they simultaneously discovered the cure for the common cold AND cancer. It was nothing special though.

[BabyTurtles]

well if they killed everyone....then there would be no villains....then they'd have to make more villains...and it's not like mutagen falls from the sky :ohwell:

and they can't capture anyone...cause that give away their lair right :-?.......

[Avatar Yuffie]

What do you mean? I offered up 3 possibilities in my last post.

Odd thought -- from playing Batman: Arkham Asylum, I'm remembering the Killer Croc sewer lair where he was kept captive. It might not be too unreasonable for the Nick Turtles -- somewhat in that vein -- to make a bunch of holding cells for evildoing mutants somewhere deep in the sewers.

But Batman has connections with the police, the Turtles don't have that. Who's gonna keep eye on said mutants when they're a group of six individuals, five of them kids and would most likely be the sidekicks if they're in the DC universe?

[Andrew NDB]

Andrew is not too "nitpicky," he's basically a Mirage purist who is going to hold a very high standard for anything that isn't black and white Mirage TMNT. While I don't always agree with his opinions, he does have a right to them.

Hey, I enjoy the show and watch it all the time with my daughter. I'm just saying... maybe these Nick TMNT should probably consider hanging up their weapons if the bad guys are always just scurrying off none the worse for wear after every single encounter.

But Batman has connections with the police, the Turtles don't have that. Who's gonna keep eye on said mutants when they're a group of six individuals, five of them kids and would most likely be the sidekicks if they're in the DC universe?

There's that, and the simple fact of... even if the police take who the Turtles give them into custody, who would take the stand as witnesses? What evidence would be lobbied against the bad guys? How would the case not be thrown out?

Which is why I've always hated the Batman stories where Batman just deposits a mugger or whatever with a little note next to a police station. It's cool, it's dramatic... but how would that not be laughed out of court?

[CyberCubed]

Hey, I enjoy the show and watch it all the time with my daughter. I'm just saying... maybe these Nick TMNT should probably consider hanging up their weapons if the bad guys are always just scurrying off none the worse for wear after every single encounter.

Do the Turtles really have to track them down and kill them though? Sounds like you want the Turtles to figuratively, "put a bullet in the head" of all their enemies after their first encounter.

[Cure]

I'm just saying... maybe these Nick TMNT should probably consider hanging up their weapons if the bad guys are always just scurrying off none the worse for wear after every single encounter.

The same thing can be said about you. "It's a kid's cartoon" can only be said to you so many times, so maybe you should consider unplugging your keyboard.

[Andrew NDB]

Do the Turtles really have to track them down and kill them though? Sounds like you want the Turtles to figuratively, "put a bullet in the head" of all their enemies after their first encounter.

Read earlier in the thread. I suggested many alternatives, none of which included killing.

The same thing can be said about you. "It's a kid's cartoon" can only be said to you so many times, so maybe you should consider unplugging your keyboard.

But that response is only given when folks mistake my conversational questions about the show (or other incarnations) as both some kind of inability to identify the show for what it is/who it's for and some kind of innate bloodthirst for Mirage caliber storytelling or something. It's hardly my fault that people keep getting it twisted, but it is my fault if I let it proliferate without jumping in to correct. If it sounds like a mantra, it's because it's generally the same people jumping to the same conclusions, over and over again.

[rpd123]

I think they could probably do a little more to stop the villains. Best way I can think of is have Donnie find a way to reverse the mutations, that way it ends with them being unmutated. The cops don't have to be dealt with and they can avoid killing to keep it kid friendly.

Never really got the problem with killing in kids cartoons though. I remember watching Dragonball Z as a kid and they killed all the time in it, in really violent ways. I just thought it was awesome, but whatever.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Hey, I enjoy the show and watch it all the time with my daughter. I'm just saying... maybe these Nick TMNT should probably consider hanging up their weapons if the bad guys are always just scurrying off none the worse for wear after every single encounter.



There's that, and the simple fact of... even if the police take who the Turtles give them into custody, who would take the stand as witnesses? What evidence would be lobbied against the bad guys? How would the case not be thrown out?

Which is why I've always hated the Batman stories where Batman just deposits a mugger or whatever with a little note next to a police station. It's cool, it's dramatic... but how would that not be laughed out of court?

Because killing bad guys is the only reason a person wants to learn martial arts. If you don't do that, then hang up your weapons.

OK, are you certain you are playing that Arkham game?

As for random muggers... well, there's a reason they're not really Batman's enemies and more of a random inconvenience. I doubt the comics/tv/movies would last as long if they're the main characters.

And if you consider Snakeweed's dismemberment, Xever as a legless creature and Falco aren't worse for wear... then... uh...

[Cure]

But that response is only given when folks mistake my conversational questions about the show (or other incarnations) as both some kind of inability to identify the show for what it is/who it's for and some kind of innate bloodthirst for Mirage caliber storytelling or something.

How is it not? By saying things like you want them to hang up their weapons or whatever you're implying you want the show over because it's not the way you would do things. It's not hard to take something you enjoy for what it is.

If you really do enjoy the show, just relax.

[Candy Kappa]

The turtles have staled the Kraangs progress in field testing the Mutagen.

Mikey did try to cut that Kraangdroid in the alley thinking he was human.

not to mention flushing Xever and Chris down the sewer, very likely drowning them. All the Foot ninja that was thrown off the roof by being kicked or punched in the Gauntlet episode. Snakeweed, they do try to kill him off.

The Nick Turtles have more ninja potential then the Mirage Turtles.

They do reconnaissance work, keeps to the shadows, use ninja tools such as the egg bomb, using the Shuriken more then ever, although I wish they used Bo shuriken over the Hira ones. Besides the first issue and the Rat King issues, I can't remember any significant scenes in Mirage where the turtles used Shuriken. Hidden weaponry, Don's Bo can become a Naginata and Mikey can turn his Nunchaku to a Kusarigama.

And, don't fight fair, fight to win. A very good lesson by Splinter

[Konchadunga]

Is it just me, or does this Splinter flipflop a lot between an idealist and a devious realist who wants to get the job done? It seems like they can't decide whether they want him to be the voice of reason or just a repository of snarky jokes.

[The Big Bad]

My point is that every single threat they've encountered is still out there -- they resolve nothing. If somehow a threat was captured, or imprisoned, or their mutation reversed or something... but every time with everything from "Snakeweed" all the way to "Justin," it goes down exactly the same way: big fight, the Turtles win, and the bad guy escapes into the shadows.

Why even bother then, right?


That's one measure, yes, at which they fail (although even when they don't, as with Baxter Stockman, the baddie was out and about as of his next episode). As others have mentioned, it's not the only one. The prevention of harm is just, if not more important part of being a hero, and they have a considerably better records with that. Maintaining the status quo, while neutral, is an accomplishment.

Which isn't to say that their inability to stop their antagonists in more permanent fashions isn't sometimes annoying, and/or contrived. Sure, there's bound to be some baddies whom they can do little about. Even so, the turtles don't seem at all interested in doing anything that isn't stopping the bad guy du jour from punching them. Why not capture Kraang and attempt to obtain intelligence from them? Why not attempt to expose them to the world? Why not take Snakeweed's heart and attempt to do something more permanent with it--they've known the guy can reassemble.

On a related note, Andrew's observation also reminds me that, in retrospect, Splinter's comment about a state of war existing between them and the Foot feels feels very odd. Just how exactly does what they've been doing imply a war? Just how have they tried to take the offensive, or do anything other than what they always do when it comes to other baddies?

[Shredded]

If the turtles simply just beat the villains the moment they met them and put them away for good.. god that sounds like a boring show.


One of the things I really really like in this show, is that the villains seems like a genuine threat! A genuine obstacle for the turtles to over-come, and they must use brains, as well as learn to be better to beat the villains.

The turtles first faced Bradford.. but couldn't beat him.

then they learned, they faced Xever and Bradford.. and couldn't beat them.
Then they learned again.

Four turtles against Xever and Bradford a second ti,e just managed to beat them! and then the two mutated becoming even stronger, and Donnie out-right said it, him and Mikey together has no chance against Dogpound, he is a threat to them!

And then the Shredder came and beat all four turtles in a minutes flat... all four turtles together, right now stand no chance against the Shredder.

These villains seems like genuine difficult obstacles, they are genuine threats, which is some-thing I like.
It gives the turtles some-thing to do! it's some real adversarries, there's real things at stake.

These turtles needs to grow stronger, smarter and more cunning to beat these villains.
And I like that! there's a real possibility that the turtles will loose when they are in battle in this season, it's actually not. "Oh we all-ready know they are going to win."
No! cause we saw these turtles loosing multiple times all-ready, and that's sort of awesome.

Also remember, one of the big themes of the show is.
"You need to do mistakes to learn from them!"
Or "You learn from your defeats!"

meaning these turtles has to do mistakes, and has to face defeats to learn from it, and they do, and that's damn awesome.

Is it just me, or does this Splinter flipflop a lot between an idealist and a devious realist who wants to get the job done? It seems like they can't decide whether they want him to be the voice of reason or just a repository of snarky jokes.

Concious of the immediate situation.

Every situation is different, you need to look at every situation in context, and weigh options based on the here and now in each unique situation.

Splinter knows this, and makes decisions based on what he knows, and what he thinks is the safest and wisest thing to do in each given situation.
Treating all situations as different situations, as they are, and where different things must be taken into account. he's a very wise man that way.

He is not always right, as he admitted in "Panick in the sewers." but he tries.

[Stephen87]

I like the show, so yes they have accomplished making me a happy fan. :tparty:

I didn't like the last cartoon show at all. I was really worried about this new CGI animated show, very badly. It has totally suprised me and it's great.

Turtle Power!!!!!!

[BubblyShell22]

I know the Turtles not beating the villains right away may seem frustrating, but you have to remember that these Turtles are younger and are still learning how to be an effective team and are still training. They aren't going to beat all of the villains in one go. It's going to take time. I don't think they should hang up their weapons at all. They shouldn't give up just because they get beaten by someone. They get up and try again.

It would be a horrible lesson for kids to learn. "Hey, kids, if you don't accomplish something, just hang it up and don't try again." Whereas this show is saying that if you go down, you get up and try again even if things don't work out. Try a different angle. That's what I like about this show.

[Ryanator008]

Is it just me, or does this Splinter flipflop a lot between an idealist and a devious realist who wants to get the job done? It seems like they can't decide whether they want him to be the voice of reason or just a repository of snarky jokes.

Well do you act the exact same all the time?

[bridgegrn]

I think the fact is their villains are hard to kill. It's definitely not from lack of trying, when push comes to shove they constantly bring the fight. But considering that while highly skilled they are still learning and that the fights usually breaks out in chaos with things blowing up and people needing to be saved there really is only so much they can do.

[Jephael]

What we all need to keep in mind is no matter how good a plotline or storyarc these cartoon shows have, at the end of the day they're just a bunch of toy commercials.

[snake]

What we all need to keep in mind is no matter how good a plotline or storyarc these cartoon shows have, at the end of the day they're just a bunch of toy commercials.

High quality toy commercials.

[gobo]

Is it just me, or does this Splinter flipflop a lot between an idealist and a devious realist who wants to get the job done? It seems like they can't decide whether they want him to be the voice of reason or just a repository of snarky jokes.
Depends on the writer, I'm sure.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Which isn't to say that their inability to stop their antagonists in more permanent fashions isn't sometimes annoying, and/or contrived. Sure, there's bound to be some baddies whom they can do little about. Even so, the turtles don't seem at all interested in doing anything that isn't stopping the bad guy du jour from punching them. Why not capture Kraang and attempt to obtain intelligence from them? Why not attempt to expose them to the world? Why not take Snakeweed's heart and attempt to do something more permanent with it--they've known the guy can reassemble.


I don't think they know about Snakeweed's heart yet. I'm sure if the show wants to get rid of him permanently, they will.

And capturing the Kraang and interrogating him? Maybe that would work in MIB/Ben 10 cartoons, but again, do the Turtles have mutant/alien cells in the Lair they can toss them into?

[Cipher]

It might not be too unreasonable for the Nick Turtles -- somewhat in that vein -- to make a bunch of holding cells for evildoing mutants somewhere deep in the sewers.
I actually find that incredibly unreasonable. Like, 4Kids levels of straight-played ridiculousness. The Turtles don't have the resources or motivation to run a mutant jail system.

Honestly, I like the fact that the mutant du jour usually ends up getting away. We're building a rogues gallery and it adds to the Turtles not being real heroes/light gallows humor aspects.

If we get two seasons in and just keep seeing the same "old mutant shows up, old mutant runs away" formula on loop, then I think this might become a valid question. But it doesn't look like that will be the case at all.

[Vivi]

At the risk of being lambasted, I have to agree. The turtles haven't maintained the status-quo as the situation would almost be identical with or without their involvement - maybe with the exception of April being kidnapped, ie. without the turtles the foot would still be running around on rooftops, Shredder would still be sitting on his throne, and the kraang would still be mixing mutagen for whatever mysterious reasons to be revealed.

If anything, I think the episodes are formulaic in their monsters, but I like to think a learning experience for the turtles who had never even been to the surface before the first episode. But compared (dare I!) to a well paced show such as the Last Airbender, the reveals and progress are moving glacially slow.

[zodiac brave]

At the risk of being lambasted, I have to agree. The turtles haven't maintained the status-quo as the situation would almost be identical with or without their involvement - maybe with the exception of April being kidnapped, ie. without the turtles the foot would still be running around on rooftops, Shredder would still be sitting on his throne, and the kraang would still be mixing mutagen for whatever mysterious reasons to be revealed.

??

the foot would be running around on rooftops...because they'd run the city.

shredder would be sitting on a throne, having accomplished his goals, as opposed to sitting there trying to figure out how to get around the tmnt.

the kraang would've also accomplished it's goal...to who knows what end.

the turtles are actually EXACTLY maintaining the status-quo.

[Vivi]

^The turtles have not stopped the foot from 'running the city' (excuse the pun!). Shredder's goal is not to destroy the turtles, I'm sure he's slightly more complex than that. The kraang's plans have yet to be exposed but they are, as ever, still working on them. So...yeah.

[Jester]

Didn't Shredder come to New York because he found out Yoshi was there?

Pretty sure his goal in NYC is to destroy Splinter and the Turtles.

[Vivi]

^As a personal vendetta, yes. But the foot itself and his plans for conquest seem on a more international scale.

[Coola Yagami]

^As a personal vendetta, yes. But the foot itself and his plans for conquest seem on a more international scale.

Though for the time being everything else seems to be on hold until he finds and kills Yoshi. He's not even working on side-projects. He's just sitting and waiting for results. Like Karai says, dude needs a hobby.

[CyberCubed]

They also just lost the Power Cell they got from Leatherhead.

[zodiac brave]

^The turtles have not stopped the foot from 'running the city' (excuse the pun!). Shredder's goal is not to destroy the turtles, I'm sure he's slightly more complex than that. The kraang's plans have yet to be exposed but they are, as ever, still working on them. So...yeah.

so you're saying that the situation in new york (in the foot's case) and the world/dimension (in the kraang's case) wouldn't be TOTALLY different if the turtles hadn't been there to foil the plots and schemes they have in the 16 eps shown so far?

unless casey or the pulverizer would have fortuitously put the kibosh on some of them, then things would be far different and pretty much worse. without the turtles interference, for all we know, the kraang's plan might have already gone off.

its kinda obvious if you think about it...

[Vivi]

^Like I said, the only significant event that they have had a part in was rescuing April (whom may become be bigger part than we realize just yet) - the other skirmishes were merely set-backs to the respective parties. Their objectives would have been accomplished in a shorter time-frame without the turtles.

Now, having recently lost the power cell to the kraang, they have directly altered the course of events. The results of this have yet to be seen.

[zodiac brave]

i dont understand your logic...

[Venom]

On a related note, Andrew's observation also reminds me that, in retrospect, Splinter's comment about a state of war existing between them and the Foot feels feels very odd. Just how exactly does what they've been doing imply a war? Just how have they tried to take the offensive, or do anything other than what they always do when it comes to other baddies?

I took that statement more as Splinter taking the near loss of life of his surrogate sons very personally, having lost his wife/daughter/life to Saki in the past. Remember how hard he was training the Turtles soon after?

Sticking to the topic at hand, I chalk it up to the Turtles being kids and this season is their first foray into the surface world. They're going to mess up, a lot, but as the series continues they'll grow into themselves as "warriors of right".

[CyberCubed]

I'm sure as time goes on the Nick Turtles will save the world. The original toon Turtles saved the world in almost every episode due to Krang's world changing schemes, and the 4kids Turtles saved the world from Ch'rell and the Triceraton invasion.

I'm sure as the Kraang takeover goes more extreme, the Turtles will be forced to save the planet.