Feminist Analyses

[Hannah]

I know this might be a longshot, but has anyone written/read any reviews or analyses of the new show from a feminist perspective? I'm writing one right now and would love to hear others' input. I'll probably post it here when I'm done; not sure if any of you are even into that. Would love to discuss here too! I am way fond of April in this show.

[plastroncafe]

I spend the bulk of my internet time in the corner that crosses feminism and fandom, and I haven't seen anything like that yet.

I'd very much like to!

[Berserker]

Yep, I've read this article, which name drops this very site:

http://doknowbutchie.wordpress.com/2012/10/04/wherein-ian-tries-to-teach-feminism-101-or-why-the-pilot-episode-of-tmnt-2012-is-highly-problematic/

tl;dr version: author takes issue with the show because April apparently doesn't have a personality and there are no head-strong women hero role models and so TMNT is sexist and detrimental to society blah blah blah. Load of junk.

If a feminist wants to talk about how male-oriented action shows should appeal to girls too, then I'll kindly point them to the nearest Brony fan site and tell them that My Little Pony needs more buff male stallion heroes to appeal to boys.

(Hey, remember when the Smurfs were actually a metaphor for an anti-semitic Marxist utopian dialectic?)

[Sage Ninja]

yeah...I see this sh*t going well...feminsit anything really seems to raise the hackles of most men including women (with varying degees of justification), so I predict a sh*t storm brewing...:roll:

[Katie]

I read the article.....it references a post made hwere on the same subject.....but I must have missed that post. Anyway I thought the article was bad.

Also, why we need to dissect a kids cartoon to this degree? Need more Quiltbag! April has a body!

Kids.

[ToTheNines]

yeah...I see this sh*t going well...feminsit anything really seems to raise the hackles of most men including women (with varying degees of justification), so I predict a sh*t storm brewing...:roll:

I disagree. I think the majority of this fanbase realizes TMNT has a severe shortage of female characters.

[CyberCubed]

This is why they should bring in Irma in the show as April's classmate.

[Sage Ninja]

I meant feminism in general, not as it pertains to TMNT per se.

But yeah, there is a shortage of female characters in TMNT. Personally I was never particularly bothered by it. ALot of times the introduction of a female character in a show where the cast is mostly male ushually means she is going to be the "love interest" of one of them or become a source of conflict between two or more of the male memebers. That type of thing normally gets on my nerves.

[Konchadunga]

For all that has been written about the chauvinism of male cartoons (and it's not entirely invalid), I'd argue that a lot of these shows are more progressive than girl-centric shows, in that they at least had a few strong females. Superfriends had Wonder Woman, the original feminist heroine. Transformers had Arcee. G.I. Joe had Scarlet and Lady Jaye. By contrast, a lot of stuff made for girls actually reinforces female stereotypes propped up by chauvinism, like pink stuff, tea parties, lack of conflict, etc. Other shows that have tried to be feminist sometimes prop up Mary Sues, like Kim Possible. This feminine deficiency is changing, but it left such a stamp on the past that I feel the relative stigma masculine shows get is unfair.

[Hannah]

I do not want this thread to be an argument about whether feminism is relevant or justified or whatever. I'm really not interested in dealing with that ****. I am interested in discussing the representation of female characters within the show.

Despite a questionable introduction (we first see her in a slow-mo "she's the most beautiful girl I've ever seen!" entrance) as Donatello's love interest, I think this is easily the strongest representation of April we've ever had. I can't get enough of her. She seriously kicks so much ass. The first words she says are "You can't keep us in here like this! We know our rights!" and it's just sooo much better than the screaming-at-a-sight-of-a-rat-even-though-she-lives-in-NYC April. I do think the show still maintains an alarmingly small number of lady characters (and unfortunately they've added in two female characters for Splinter's backstory just so they could be killed off to further his development) but I think this show is making some good steps towards better representation. Irma's been hinted at as a possible character, and I'm hoping April's aunt gets involved somehow.

I read the article.....it references a post made hwere on the same subject.....but I must have missed that post. Anyway I thought the article was bad.

Also, why we need to dissect a kids cartoon to this degree? Need more Quiltbag! April has a body!

Kids.
Please do not post in this thread again. I want a discussion, I don't need people like you derailing it.


EDIT: I am also starting to read that post about the pilot episode. I like it so far. I think it's always important to remember that just because something is sexist or has sexist elements doesn't mean you can't still love it. It's just important to understand and identify what the problematic elements are.

[BubblyShell22]

Well, there is speculation that Karai is actually Splinter's lost daughter, Miwa, but since that hasn't been confirmed as canon yet, we can't really say for sure if it'll happen or not. Also, I like the fact that Splinter has such a backstory that makes him seem more human in some respects. You can tell he has a longing to go back to how it used to be, but he remembers that he has four sons to care for and that he can't dwell on the past as much as he'd like to.

I do agree that there haven't been a lot of female characters, but I agree that April is awesome.

[CyberCubed]

Despite a questionable introduction (we first see her in a slow-mo "she's the most beautiful girl I've ever seen!" entrance) as Donatello's love interest, I think this is easily the strongest representation of April we've ever had. I can't get enough of her. She seriously kicks so much ass. The first words she says are "You can't keep us in here like this! We know our rights!" and it's just sooo much better than the screaming-at-a-sight-of-a-rat-even-though-she-lives-in-NYC April.

Just curious, what do you think of original toon or 4kids April then? Is Nick's April a better role model than the one from the previous two cartoons?

[Oculus Orbus]

Just curious, what do you think of original toon or 4kids April then? Is Nick's April a better role model than the one from the previous two cartoons?

It is not always about wich one is a better role model per se, it's about the value and weight of the character. A show can hold feminist values and not have femenine role models, simply by giving the female characters some weight in the story. It could be done through villains just fine.

[Donatello19]

Maybe they're scared to introduce female characters because of the fans' reactions to Venus. IMO, they should bring back Mona Lisa.

[NinjaMan]

My wife and daughter don't seem to mind. They each have their own favorite turtle and seem indifferent to April

[TheSkeletonMan939]

The reason TMNT doesn't have females is because females are really just love interests on TV shows. And the idea of a giant walking turtle falling in love with a human is creepy. The Nick show tries to make it look cute, but it's pretty disturbing if you think about it.

[CyberCubed]

If they brought in Irma, Mona Lisa and Ninjara they can add female characters.

In terms of villains both Tempestra and Shreeka would be good.

[Hannah]

Just curious, what do you think of original toon or 4kids April then? Is Nick's April a better role model than the one from the previous two cartoons?
Like Oculus Orbus said, a character doesn't have to be a good role model to be a good character. But I think in this situation it is important that the character of April be a good role model for girls because of the lack of well portrayed female heroes. Especially considering that the main audience of this show is children.

The reason TMNT doesn't have females is because females are really just love interests on TV shows. And the idea of a giant walking turtle falling in love with a human is creepy. The Nick show tries to make it look cute, but it's pretty disturbing if you think about it.
"Females are really just love interests on TV shows." Come on. Do you really believe that? And if that were the case, why would you just accept it instead of challenging it?

[TheSkeletonMan939]

"Females are really just love interests on TV shows." Come on. Do you really believe that? And if that were the case, why would you just accept it instead of challenging it?

I don't watch much TV, but in most TV shows I've seen, be it cartoons, British dramas, or whatever, women just seem to be the love interest of the male main character.

[demonsweat]

I find nothing sexist about this show. The TMNT story is about four male mutant turtles - that's the story being told here. Any other character is going to be a supporting character and won't have as much focus. I find it strange that some people think that the amount of female characters vs. the amount of male characters in a show determines whether or not it's sexist.

April is a fine representation. She's tough and smart. Yeah she's Donnie's love interest, but he's the one head-over-heels for her, not the other way around. Her character is much more focused on things like school, or finding her dad. She was even brave enough to infiltrate a Kraang hideout by herself and deliver a wire-tapped pizza (her idea) to the Purple Dragons. And Karai is another good example. She's crafty, witty and very skilled as a ninja. Both of these characters strike me as very independent in their own ways. And isn't the leader of the Kraang rumored to be female? Or at least voiced by one. I dunno, an evil female overlord sounds pretty cool to me.

I actually do find it offensive when some people go looking for sexism in things like this. There are plenty of things out there more deserving and it really just hurts the whole feminism cause, to be honest. Nitpicking this show is missing the forest for the trees - these females aren't making sammiches for the turtles, they're fighting them and cracking wise.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Yes, I wish this show has more girls, yes, I wish April gets a little bit more focus, but I'll judge this if she's treated well after season 1.

But to say TMNT is sexist is and reinforces the evils of patriarchy is where I get off the feminist bus.

Sure April and Karai were given "the girls the guys had hots for thing" but April doesn't seem to be interested and Karai seems to be just trolling Leo while showing off she's independent. She had the foresight to look at the Kraang and defying her father. Sure Tang Shen existed in all continuities to be killed, but she can't helped getting fridged any more than Uncle Ben/Bruce Wayne's parents did.

I think the fans are very unkind to 2012 April, and I really don't understand. Only the OT April is very involved with the Turtles' adventures while those who followed in future adaptations, while very Action Girls and doesn't need to be rescued, aren't much in the limelight at all (and it pains me to say that since I love Archie April, but she wasn't with them most of the time). I know the frustration is that April is the fifth Turtle like Carter and Ninjara and Cody Jones and needs to be with the boys more... but I think the show has yet to make her someone who won't be a liability to them when they fight aliens/mutants/ninjas.

[Katie]

I'm glad that you only wish to have discussion in support of your view. I disagree with the article and fid it rather whiny. My opinion.

My opinion relevant to this topic is that if a little girl watching TMNT (or any other cartoon, show, etc) has to see a female doing an action or being in a role to understand that she is of value in life, that this is a failing of her family and not a failing of society which requires some group to interject their opinion or comment on the state of society.

So enjoy your thread.

[zodiac brave]

as a man, i would love any future daughter of mine that i might have to be as smart and independent as nick's april.

[CyberCubed]

I suppose the problem is April hasn't gotten much screentime yet. This will probably change as the show progresses, but she does get little screentime in the eps she's in.

[RaphAndDonnie]

Well I read the article and I have to say that I don't agree with it. As far as the 2012 toon goes I think April is just fine. She's more of an action girl this go around...heck she's even training with Splinter! As for the other female characters (Karai and etc.) I think they're ok too. The article just seems whiny and pretty narrow minded.

[Powder]

If all you want to do is 'discuss April in the new series' then why go out of your way to put the feminist spin on things? Seems like troll bait to me...

On 'topic', I think this is the best version of April ever. I mean, she's my favorite at least. I prefer this design and personality to all others.

[Coola Yagami]

If all you want to do is 'discuss April in the new series' then why go out of your way to put the feminist spin on things? Seems like troll bait to me...

On 'topic', I think this is the best version of April ever. I mean, she's my favorite at least. I prefer this design and personality to all others.

I agree April might need more screen time... but the show is about the TURTLES. And well... all 4 of them are male, kinda hard for it not to be male oriented. Had there been female Turtles since day 1 (as in Mirage # 1, I don't mean New Mutation) it would have been different... but it wasn't that way. Male oriented series with 4 male heroes, it's hard for anyone else to fit into their little quartet without looking for a forced 5th Turtle, be it Zach, Venus or even April.

[Vivi]

I've never really dissected it beyond a simple count, as the turtles I have no issue with. If anything, April in the latest series strikes me as particularly Mary-Sue ish: an attractive, school aged girl, whom at least one of the turtles openly likes, adopted by Splinter to undertake ninjutsu training, and whom actually might have magic powers or is in some way 'special' - sound familiar? But to be fair, her character hasn't really been given a chance to shine yet. Karai's only a little better.
As I learned a long time ago, there in nothing weak about being feminine, (& nor is it the only characteristic of being female).

[Dirty Blond]

This show does a good job of reminding any male who's socially awkward, nerdy and not male model-looking that they have no right to their sexuality.

Put it in your shell, Donatello, and every other guy (unless you look like this):

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MvX74T_zrP4/TcGnC-a6RDI/AAAAAAAAABI/pGvmsQgJTTA/s1600/sean_o_pry.jpg

[Cipher]

I love this thread.

I remember when the show was first starting to air, there was some worry here about how much of a non-character April was.

Half a season in, it seems like she's doing better. She feels like a full character, she's competent, and she's not the damsel-in-distress April has sometimes been in the past.

Karai, too, is a strong-ish character from her few appearances.

But what are we really settling for here? As far as we know, two whole women exist in this universe. They're both kids. April can be as spunky as she wants, but she still isn't doing anything without the Turtles at this point. And let's not forget that Karai is Shredder's daughter, has every aspect of her character filtered through being Shredder's daughter and, if you want to take it in franchise context, is based on a character who was originally the extremely competent leader of the entire Foot Clan. Now she seems stuck in a subservient role. (This, by the way, sucks the big one, and has since 2004.)

Bottom line: This show isn't doing anything particularly offensive when it comes to gender. In fact, for its genre, audience and source material, it does a lot of things right. But it could definitely be better, and it's okay to hold it accountable for that.

I find nothing sexist about this show. The TMNT story is about four male mutant turtles - that's the story being told here. Any other character is going to be a supporting character and won't have as much focus. I find it strange that some people think that the amount of female characters vs. the amount of male characters in a show determines whether or not it's sexist.
It doesn't. It's how they're used. It's what they do. It's how stacked that ratio is.

We have two female characters and, yeah, they're all right. But look at the roles they're in, and it's still an extremely stacked deck in a number of ways.

Yeah, it's a boys' action cartoon. But I don't think it's too much to ask why we can't have more gender-neutral shows of this kind. It's not like I wouldn't let my hypothetical daughter watch this show. Again, April and Karai are pretty good, and maybe this show even comes out ahead of others of its kind. But it'd be nice if there were a slightly stronger role model, or a slightly better ratio, you know?

At this point, it's ahead of IDW though. Which, while also not offensive in any way, suffers from the same problems with arguably fewer strengths.

If all you want to do is 'discuss April in the new series' then why go out of your way to put the feminist spin on things?
Because when April is fully one-half oft the female presence in this show (and 100 percent of it for the first half-season), the two are entirely linked. In fact, that fact alone should be enough to prompt this conversation.

yeah...I see this sh*t going well...feminsit anything really seems to raise the hackles of most men including women (with varying degees of justification)
Most women hate feminism? I'm glad I don't know these women.

[CyberCubed]

I'm willing to bet if the writers had April go on, "missions" with the Turtles and fought alongside them as a 5th Turtle character or whatever, people would start complaining about how April is a Mary Sue and how it should only be the 4 Turtles again.

What the Nick writers are doing with April is for the best. She's involved in the shows stories without being intrusive, sometimes she needs rescuing and other times she can take care of herself.

[Cipher]

What the Nick writers are doing with April is for the best. She's involved in the shows stories without being intrusive, sometimes she needs rescuing and other times she can take care of herself.
Oh, just to be clear, I totally agree. There's nothing I hate more than April suddenly manifesting ninja skills on par with the Turtles. It's not realistic and, in a way, it diminishes her character to just throw her in as a lesser action hero.

At this point, I'd just settle for April either 1) Getting more spotlight and development or generally being more active (not necessarily with fighting) or 2) Not being one of two female characters on the show, the other of whom is the bad guy's daughter.

April's good, but she still hasn't done much in the show outside of playing one of four roles for the Turtles: sidekick, crush, occasional babysitter or damsel in distress. We can do better.

[CyberCubed]

They kind of run into the same problem the 4kids writers had with April, they can't exactly have her involved with the plot as much as say...original toon April. Its amazing how the old toon was able to involve April into the story of almost every episode and she did no fighting in that series whatsoever.

[Cipher]

They kind of run into the same problem the 4kids writers had with April, they can't exactly have her involved with the plot as much as say...original toon April. Its amazing how the old toon was able to involve April into the story of almost every episode and she did no fighting in that series whatsoever.
Unfortunately she also spent ninety percent of her time being kidnapped. :\

Get a little better, get a little worse.

[Coola Yagami]

They kind of run into the same problem the 4kids writers had with April, they can't exactly have her involved with the plot as much as say...original toon April. Its amazing how the old toon was able to involve April into the story of almost every episode and she did no fighting in that series whatsoever.

true but the 4Kids version had Karai, Renet, Sydney, Angel, Joi, it had more females. We only got 2 so far in the new show.

[Konchadunga]

I would say that this series had no problem having only two female characters, except that it has added a lot of male characters throughout the season. Then again, though, they aren't very good characters, and are up against two females that are well-written.

[BabyTurtles]

true but the 4Kids version had Karai, Renet, Sydney, Angel, Joi, it had more females. We only got 2 so far in the new show.

It's only a matter of time till we get more, I'm sure :3

personally I don't mind the lack of girls :D as long as the ones we have are cool in their own way I'm fine :3

[CyberCubed]

Unfortunately she also spent ninety percent of her time being kidnapped. :\

Get a little better, get a little worse.

April may have gotten in trouble in every episode, but she was fearless and never hesitated to leap into danger. She also does help the Turtles and save the day in a few episodes when you pay attention to it. I also think the writers pairing her with Irma and Vernon showed how she was allowed to be snarky and adventurous with them, making her look like the best role model of the Channel 6 news crew.

[Avatar Yuffie]

true but the 4Kids version had Karai, Renet, Sydney, Angel, Joi, it had more females. We only got 2 so far in the new show.

Though to be fair April, Angel and Sydney were the most prominent ones in season 1, and only April is the recurring character. The Nick show haven't finished its own run yet.

[Hannah]

I'm glad that you only wish to have discussion in support of your view. I disagree with the article and fid it rather whiny. My opinion.

My opinion relevant to this topic is that if a little girl watching TMNT (or any other cartoon, show, etc) has to see a female doing an action or being in a role to understand that she is of value in life, that this is a failing of her family and not a failing of society which requires some group to interject their opinion or comment on the state of society.

So enjoy your thread.
Yo, you are entirely missing the point. It is just not getting through to you. You have literally nothing to contribute to the discussion about female representation in the show. If you have something constructive and intelligent to add that differs from my opinion, I highly encourage you to add to the discussion. But all you have to give is a condescending "why analyze a show meant for kids??" when you yourself are posting on a website entirely devoted to discussing ninja turtles. For Christ's sake.


If all you want to do is 'discuss April in the new series' then why go out of your way to put the feminist spin on things? Seems like troll bait to me...
Do you really, seriously think that I made this thread just so I could get more people to scream in my face about how they think feminism is irrelevant? That I am literally baiting people to yell at me?
I want to discuss how /all/ female characters on the show are represented, and that is an inherently feminist discussion. I started with April because she's one of the only two on the show! Geeze.


/longpost/
I'm glad there's at least a couple people also interested and not just here to remark how they hate feminism. :razz: Everything you've said is spot on. I'll have more to say tomorrow when I'm sober and not exhausted.

[Shredded]

Oh man... bleh, feminism.


I mean, really.. Bleh! the trouble about feminism is that they can turn every-thing into the argument of it being bad, all it takes is a little bit of spin-doctory.

For example!

If they had turned Mikey into a girl, some-one would say.
"It's this show portraying women as dumb and irresponsible."

If they turned Raphael into a girl, some-one would say.
"It's the show saying that women are hot-heated people with temper problems, whom can't be controlled."

if they turned Donatello into a woman some-one would say.
"The show is saying women thinks to much and over-complicating things on purpose."

And finally, if Leo was a woman, some 'feminist' out there would say.
"This show is saying women are controlling, and has a need to be in control."


... See, that's why I don't call myself a feminsit!
I am a woman! Of cause I want equality and more female characters, but I choice to say. "I have an opinion, it's based on my own exsperience and knowledge, and I look at each situation different to give an opinion."


Okay, so this new TMNT show, thus far only three females has appeared, and one of those were only a killer robot.

Yes, there is an imbalance here, yes that is a problem.
But it's not a problem unique to this show, and in case of this show it comes from the fact that the show is based on some-thing else, and that some-thing else neither had a lot of women. It didn't!

At this point the 2k3 also only had two women! April and Angel, and that was it at this point.

How-ever, this show is actually trying to do some-thing about it!
The fatal robot did not have to be a woman, that was a decision the writers made.
They decided to introduce Karai early and make her a more prominent character, why? Probably to have a second woman.
April is also a very capable girl, and there is probably a good reason why they train her to be a konuich so early.. it's so she can go on adventures with the turtles in a near future.

This show is not dis-respectful to women, it just very unfortunate there aren't more of them right now, but again, universal problem amongst almost all action, adventure cartoon shows.

The women that they do have, they treat very respectfully.

So yeah, go on 'feministic' rampages over it, is really not some-thing I like.

I just highly dislike when some-one actually has to use the word. "Feminism" to argument for any-thing!
I've argued for more women before on this forum, and it's by conciouse choice that I never use the word. "Feminism." as I rather give solid arguments beside it.

I'm not a feminist, I am just a woman, whom likes these kinds of shows, whom kind of wished there were more women in them.

[Hannah]

Seriously, I don't mean this to piss off anyone in particular, but let's all please refrain from talking about whether or not we identify with feminism or whether feminism is needed. That's not the discussion at hand. thanks

[Candy Kappa]

Interesting to see how many reacts with Feminist in the title, raging about the straw feminists and patriarch liberators.

There is a diversity of gender {and color) of the background characters, so April, karai and cameo Irma isn't the only females in the world.

The reason TMNT doesn't have females is because females are really just love interests on TV shows

Is it really that disturbing? We are talking about humanoid creatures that that live in a society where another species of humanoids dominate on every level. not to mention same intelligences and mindset. the turtles have the minds of humans.

But Donnie is in (at least as of this date) a one sided "romance", April is clearly not interested that way. He be friend zone'd. Either she is oblivious to his feelings, don't want to compromise the friendship by addressing it or just enjoys the attention and don't want it to go any further that that.

Karai on the other hand is clearly playing Leo like a harp from hell.

These characters are clearly not just relationship NPCs for the main characters to have around as decoration. They are fully developed characters, both villain and support.

Ad I love that Karai have the villain femme fatal attitude, without the Looks of wonder Woman and the rack of Power Girl.

[Powder]

Let's all please refrain from talking about whether or not we identify with feminism or whether feminism is needed. That's not the discussion at hand. thanks

Thread title- "Feminist Analyses"

Yeah, totally not the place for the topic of feminists.

[Berserker]

Oh man... bleh, feminism.


I mean, really.. Bleh! the trouble about feminism is that they can turn every-thing into the argument of it being bad, all it takes is a little bit of spin-doctory.


I agree. The show could have a 100% all-female cast, heroes, sidekicks, villains, side characters, everything, and feminists would still have something to complain about and something to find sexist and "problematic." I remember a lot of this talk started to happen when Powerpuff Girls came out. Some feminists sided with the show, while others thought it was a blatant attempt to pander to gender equality, and that it was patronizing and ham-fisted.

TMNT can never "win" this battle, but that's okay, because it's not a battle they should have to fight. TV shows shouldn't be forced to match a universal demographic. If they do, that's great, but if they don't, who cares. Again, take a look at the Bronies. Boys don't watch My Little Pony and get annoyed at the fact that there aren't enough male ponies.

[Cipher]

Thread title- "Feminist Analyses"

Yeah, totally not the place for the topic of feminists.
You realize a "feminist analysis" is a mode of fictional critiquing that exams a piece's effects through portrayal of gender, right?

That said, it's all a way of addressing the same issues and, while I guess I shouldn't be totally surprised seeing as how it's a comicbook forum, the amount of dismissal here is kind of a shame.

It's okay to talk about gender portrayal in TV, guys. That doesn't even mean TMNT's doing a terrible job (it's totally not!). But it's okay to at least broach the subject and talk about how it's doing, especially when girls get so few positive characters of their own gender in popular media. (Guys have problems in that area too, but less so with Turtles.)

Again, take a look at the Bronies. Boys don't watch My Little Pony and get annoyed at the fact that there aren't enough male ponies.
And I just want to address this because it's a fallacious argument used to shut down these kinds of conversations. We don't need to be concerned with My Little Pony so much because males don't find a lack of male characters to look up to across the whole of media. There are problems with the portrayal of men in popular media, sure -- mainly that a lot of the characters aren't positive if they're not fighting, etc. -- but there's definitely not a lack of them. So when a show comes a long aimed at kids heavily stacked in favor of positively portrayed female characters, that's a good thing. It's bucking a trend, rather than reinforcing one. A heavily male show and a heavily female show aren't equal problems because we don't live in a bubble -- if we did, they would be.

On top of that, an all- or mostly-all-female cast doesn't mean it can't be problematic. There's a long history of shows aimed at young girls that do nothing but reinforce insipidness.

Re: PowerPuff Girls, you said "some" feminists, right? So it sounds like it's just that "some people" took issue with it. Feminists aren't a union.

Finally, just so we're not talking in terms of some unreachable ideal, there are totally male-oriented action cartoons I think are pretty much above reproach when it comes to gender portrayal: For example, most DC shows.

[Pterobat]

Yes, because heaven forbid people discuss things about media that bother 'em.

It is totally messed up that any look at gender and society in media is being boo-ed just because of a few fanatics or what somebody thinks the movement is all about.

Or that the current state of things is justification enough for things to continue to be done that way, which, you know, it's not.

As for Nick Turtles and the franchise in general, yeah, it sucks that there are less female characters for us girls to relate to, especially that there are so few female mutants. They don't HAVE to be love interests, and they don't HAVE to interfere with the precious nihilism of the Turtles being all male.

2012 April is a pretty good character, and the only problems with the crush are on Don's end. Karai is nice, too, though she feels like one of those "remember the new one?" characters who is treated like she was there all along.

I really hope that the series doesn't go back on its word and have Karai be "converted" to the side of good. Even if she is Miwa, it doesn't mean she can be saved.

[Shredded]

Yes, because heaven forbid people discuss things about media that bother 'em.

It is totally messed up that any look at gender and society in media is being boo-ed just because of a few fanatics or what somebody thinks the movement is all about.

Or that the current state of things is justification enough for things to continue to be done that way, which, you know, it's not.

As for Nick Turtles and the franchise in general, yeah, it sucks that there are less female characters for us girls to relate to, especially that there are so few female mutants. They don't HAVE to be love interests, and they don't HAVE to interfere with the precious nihilism of the Turtles being all male.

2012 April is a pretty good character, and the only problems with the crush are on Don's end. Karai is nice, too, though she feels like one of those "remember the new one?" characters who is treated like she was there all along.

I really hope that the series doesn't go back on its word and have Karai be "converted" to the side of good. Even if she is Miwa, it doesn't mean she can be saved.


It's just.. it's not because I don't think it should be talked about.

Hell, I even talk about it A LOT in my own written articles and bring it up a lot in my discussions of media.

I just refuse to call it feminsim or myself a feminist.

Because, to me the idea that men and women should be presented in equal measure and that there should be interesting female characters representated isn't feminism.. it's some-thing I call common sense.

and the word feminsim is just miss-used so much, you can use it against any-thing, it doesn't mean any-thing! No one knows what it means or what any-one wants with it.

I shouldn't have to call myself a feminist to talk about these issues. I should be able to just talk about fine enough without joining a group, or go on a crusade.

And then talk about what I actually want.
I think that's sort of important. What is it I want? what does any-one want? What do you people want?

I mean one thing is to say. "These show is under-representated in girls!" or. "The girl characters aren't good." okay.. what do you want then? what do we want to change?
Here's my suggestions.

It could be sort of neat to have Irma introduced, and also make her a bit of a klutz.

I also think it could be sort of cool if the next mad scientist was a woman. (you all know there indeed is going ot be a 'next' evil scientist, there always is.)

Could also be cool with a female mutant, don't know if she should be for good or evil, but it just would be neat to see. Also if this mutant isn't any-bodies love interest.

That's kind of the suggestions I have right now, and I am also a big believer in.. give the show a little time wont you? let it breath, it's barely new and most of the characters introduced are status quo characters.
new versions of old characters whom just had to appear.

Further more, it is a good show! to pick on the "girls aspect." is nit-picking.

[Pterobat]

Femnism isn't about making women superior. And movements need names so that everyone can identify with (at least some of) their basic ideas. It's not the fault of the movement that the wider culture has turned the name feminism into a curse word.

[ToTheNines]

But what are we really settling for here? As far as we know, two whole women exist in this universe. They're both kids. April can be as spunky as she wants, but she still isn't doing anything without the Turtles at this point. And let's not forget that Karai is Shredder's daughter, has every aspect of her character filtered through being Shredder's daughter and, if you want to take it in franchise context, is based on a character who was originally the extremely competent leader of the entire Foot Clan. Now she seems stuck in a subservient role. (This, by the way, sucks the big one, and has since 2004.)

Just to nitpick, there's April's Aunt (unseen so far, but still), Tang Shen (the Uncle Ben of TMNT), Miwa (potentially not Karai) Irma, Joan Grody (TV personality) and the woman who fixes the copy machine at TCRI and makes fun of Baxter :P.

But yes, Karai. I've been laying off complaining about her lately, but for the sake of this thread, I'll rev it up again.

I guess I can see why the 4kids show did what the did with her, and admittedly she was still head of the Foot in Japan there, but the fact that she's now constantly portrayed as Saki's seed drives me nuts too.

Even ignoring the point of this thread, I always just thought it would be cool to see Saki as kind of the black sheep of the Foot Clan. Having his faction vs. Karai's faction would be awesome.

[plastroncafe]

Personally I'm waiting for the scene where Karai and April have it out, and that hopefully that'll happen without either of them mentioning Leonardo.

I'm not asking for much, Nick. Just two female characters interacting, without that interaction having to do with a male character. WICKED easy to do. I have faith in you Nick.

That right there would be a great first step towards making TMNT a "kids'" show rather than merely a "boys'" show.

Art should make one think. It should elicit an emotional response. It should engage. Feminist deconstruction is a method of processing art. If it's not your particular cup of tea...that's fine. Belittling such analysis is willfully ignorant.

I don't know that I would call the new Turtle cartoon sexist, but it does have some problematic tropes that I'm less than fond of.

April's introduction being one of them.

Don's persistent affection in light of April's continued rebuffing of his affection is another. Liking someone romantically does not magically obligate them to your affections. Don's wandering dangerously close to falling into "nice guy" territory.

My hope upon hope is that this uncomfortable plot will continue into the second season, where Casey shows up...and then Splinter can sit down with Don and explain why he should build a bridge and get over his rejection.

[BabyTurtles]

still hoping to see Angel :D

[plastroncafe]

You know who I'd effing love to see at some point ANYWHERE?!
Shadow Jones.

Never going to happen in the Nick Toon, on account of her daddy being in highschool.

...

Though, woah. What a trip THAT'D be.

[BabyTurtles]

You know who I'd effing love to see at some point ANYWHERE?!
Shadow Jones.

Never going to happen in the Nick Toon, on account of her daddy being in highschool.

...

Though, woah. What a trip THAT'D be.

well...she could just be an orphan named shadow XD and they meet her for an episode :3

[ToTheNines]

well...she could just be an orphan named shadow XD and they meet her for an episode :3

That totally defeats her purpose.

[Candy Kappa]

That totally defeats her purpose.

like making Karai Shredders daughter...

[ToTheNines]

like making Karai Shredders daughter...

I don't think I'd say that completely defeats her purpose, but like I've said, I don't really like it.

The worst part about "Oroku Karai" is the fact that Shredder has a daughter in the comics, Pimiko. But it looks like she's doomed to stay in Image obscurity.

[Dirty Blond]

I just refuse to call it feminsim or myself a feminist.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/orson_wells_Slow-Clap.gif

Because you know that reverse-sexism is still sexism.

Thank you for not being a dupe.

[BabyTurtles]

That totally defeats her purpose.

oh really? what was her purpose?

(I only know she's Casey daughter....nothing else :D)

[Shredded]

Because you know that reverse-sexism is still sexism.

Thank you for not being a dupe.

Well among other things.. thank you.


I must say though, when-ever some-one says. "I'm a feminist!" my standard answer is. "good for you."

What the hell does that even mean. "I'm a feminist." ?

And yes, yes group of supposed "feminists." can be rather sexiest towards men, and more than any-thing they are really shooting themselves in the foot.
By saying. "Women can't be, slow, shy, a servant, over-abusive, wrong, distreet, over-dramatic ext." is just throwing away any-thing that would make a interesting character, and all we are left with is a huge pile of boring.
Not only boring, but it's an inhuman ideal that's impossible to life up to by actual girls and women.

Also, it's far to easy to just go. "I am a feminist, therefore you must listen to me and I am right! To say any-thing against me by default means you are sexiest, cause I am the feminist, and women totally has it hard." .. shesh

That's no argument.. and even worse it's an no-argument you can't debate without looking like a douch.

I'm fortunate, I can debate it, cause I am a woman.. if I were a man there was no way for me to say this without some-one calling me. "Sexiest." and that is unfortunate.

And believe me, this show is in NO way the sexiest. Really, if you want sexiest, go watch "Branded." which was indeed a 2012 Hollywood movie.
That actually had a message of.
"Fat women should be ashamed of themselves, they are useless to society."
I wish I was kidding, I am not.
Now that's actually sexiest. "You are only worth any-thing if you are pretty." ... wauw that was hurtful.

How-ever.. no, thus far TMNT has not passed the Bechdel test.

For those of you whom doesn't know of the Bechdel test.. you totally should, it's astounding how many movies and tely shows that doesn't pass.

The rules are simple! three rules.

1;There must be at least two women present.

2;The two women must have at least one conversation together.

3;That conversation cannot be about a man!


Unless you count the scene where robo teacher tried to shoot April and the conversation was pretty much. "April O'Neil, Exsterminate!" then no, it didn't pass the Bechdel test.

How-ever.. as the show goes right now, I will say it has a fair chance of passing the test in a near future.

April and Karai could easily end up having a conversation, Maybe Irma will appear, maybe some other character will appear.
I think it will pass the Bechel test before the first season is out! I am willing to bet.

Oh yeah btw, TMNT 2k3 first passed the Bechdel test in episode 20 where April had a conversation with Doctor Abigal Filtch about monsters at Caseys hut.
Thus this show has four episodes yet before it's more sexiest than the 2k3 show.. though admittedly the 2k3 show had three females at this point.. April, Angel and Quarry. which is one more than this show.. unless you count robo teach.

[plastroncafe]

I've seen some sexiest TMNT stuff, but mostly in the dark recesses of ff.net...oh and that Tijuana Bible that got posted here a while ago.

...

Oh. You meant sexist. My bad.

[Shredded]

I've seen some sexiest TMNT stuff, but mostly in the dark recesses of ff.net...oh and that Tijuana Bible that got posted here a while ago.

...

Oh. You meant sexist. My bad.

I'm from Denmark and speak Danish in my every-day life, english is only my second languet.
Excuse me if I make spelling mistakes ones in a while.

[plastroncafe]

It was either take a condescending potshot at your misuse of a word and work it into a sarcastic joke, or attempt to engage you in a reasoned discussion of feminism by referencing your equal condescension and willful ignorance of the topic.

I opted for the former, because while both of them have absolutely no chance eliciting progress, the former was at very least fun to write.

Back to the topic at hand,

I usually don't fancy myself a great lover of feminist analysis in general. I appreciate it for what it is, but I'm kind of crap at articulating it. A lot of times for me it comes down to the question of whether or not to get emotionally involved with the thesis. Which brings up the "Is this hill worthy enough to die on?" question.

When it comes to TMNT, well...I've been dying on that hill since '91, so by this point it's just sheer force of habit.

[Shredded]

It was either take a condescending potshot at your misuse of a word and work it into a sarcastic joke, or attempt to engage you in a reasoned discussion of feminism by referencing your equal condescension and willful ignorance of the topic.

I opted for the former, because while both of them have absolutely no chance eliciting progress, the former was at very least fun to write.

Back to the topic at hand,

I usually don't fancy myself a great lover of feminist analysis in general. I appreciate it for what it is, but I'm kind of crap at articulating it. A lot of times for me it comes down to the question of whether or not to get emotionally involved with the thesis. Which brings up the "Is this hill worthy enough to die on?" question.

When it comes to TMNT, well...I've been dying on that hill since '91, so by this point it's just sheer force of habit.

I'm sorry, now I was the one being rude.
Just.. long day you know, and some-times you get attacked a lot when talking about these things.

Heh, and well, tone is some-thing that's some-times difficult to decipher in written word.

Again, sorry. This one was on me!

[Oculus Orbus]

I ususally try to avoid discussions of this nature because, being spanish, I feel like I lack the conversational skills needed to properly articulate my ideas, but I guess I'll try anyway.

My main concern here is that I feel like some of you guys might be misinterpreting what feminism is actually about. It is not a reverse way of traditional sexism at all, but rather a set of ideas that focus on the uneven portrayal and state of genders trough society. Of course there are people that claim to be feminists whose ideas are basically as negative as the ones of those they're opposed to, but that shouldn't diminish the actual ideology of feminism. We've lived in a male dominated culture for centuries, and our current society still carries traces of that. I believe this is not really the place to explain such things, and anyone could easily find better information about it on the internet than anything I could probably say here.

Now, having said so, doing a "feminist analyse" on Nick's TMNT doesn't necessarily mean that we have to negatively criticize it. It's a cultural object, aimed at kids and maybe teens, wich inherently is gonna hold certain values that can be studied from any perspective. In my opinion, the show has actually been pretty decent with female characters. It could do better, that's for sure, but I feel like the writers in it are well aware of what they're doing. We've got a core set of male characters that was already established, and that's just fine, I don't think anyone would complain about it. The two female characters we've had so far (not counting the robot) have been built with the same criterion in terms of the quality of the writing than the male ones, where in many other shows the female characters usually have a lesser development. So that's good, and I'm glad to see things slowly moving forward.

One issue I'd like to see addressed here is the use (or abuse) of good-looking female characters. In most shows, they seem to handle better the diversity of men when it comes to their physical appearance. I understand it's perfectly logic that April is gonna look cute, and Karai is gonna have a fit body, but I hope that, given the case, they also explore other options, just like they've done with male characters such as the human form of Spider Bytez. The design on the robot teacher makes me optimist on this subject.

[demonsweat]

I find nothing sexist about this show. The TMNT story is about four male mutant turtles - that's the story being told here. Any other character is going to be a supporting character and won't have as much focus. I find it strange that some people think that the amount of female characters vs. the amount of male characters in a show determines whether or not it's sexist.

It doesn't. It's how they're used. It's what they do. It's how stacked that ratio is.

We have two female characters and, yeah, they're all right. But look at the roles they're in, and it's still an extremely stacked deck in a number of ways.

Yeah, it's a boys' action cartoon. But I don't think it's too much to ask why we can't have more gender-neutral shows of this kind. It's not like I wouldn't let my hypothetical daughter watch this show. Again, April and Karai are pretty good, and maybe this show even comes out ahead of others of its kind. But it'd be nice if there were a slightly stronger role model, or a slightly better ratio, you know?

I have to slightly disagree here. I would love to see more shows feature females in lead or non-stereotypical roles, that's a no-brainer. But trying to force more of [insert underused gender/race/sexual orientation here] into a story just to appease certain people hurts the art of storytelling. This isn't the April show, it's about the turtles. The majority of fans don't want to see more focus on April over the turtles, obviously. She's just not as interesting they are and that's not a gender thing, it's just a difference in their characters. I want to watch a show about mutant ninjas, not teenage girls in high school (and there are plenty of shows about that).

See, in trying to make every PC, I feel that we're watering down potentially good stories. There's only one African-American in the show and he's kind of a bumbling fool. Is that wrong? Should we try to represent every race and creed in this show as well? I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great to have a diverse cast and I certainly appreciate the inclusion of characters with unique backgrounds.

I make the same argument for feminism that I do for racism in TV and movies. Instead of cramming in more token characters in order to appeal to a certain group, why not make new IPs instead? I'd be thrilled to have an action cartoon with a female lead or leads.

That right there would be a great first step towards making TMNT a "kids'" show rather than merely a "boys'" show.

And since we're on the topic...
Easy on the "boy's show" talk! :D Ladies also enjoy action shows, and ones with mainly male casts. Lemme tell you guys the same thing I told my daughter when my niece asked her why she played with "boy's" toys: there is no such thing as boy's and girl's toys/shows. Anyone who says otherwise has been brainwashed by advertisers. ;)

[BubblyShell22]

Uh, Sweaty, you forgot about Carlos Chiang O'Brien Gambe, the Channel Six news guy.

[Hannah]

I have to slightly disagree here. I would love to see more shows feature females in lead or non-stereotypical roles, that's a no-brainer. But trying to force more of [insert underused gender/race/sexual orientation here] into a story just to appease certain people hurts the art of storytelling. This isn't the April show, it's about the turtles. The majority of fans don't want to see more focus on April over the turtles, obviously. She's just not as interesting they are and that's not a gender thing, it's just a difference in their characters. I want to watch a show about mutant ninjas, not teenage girls in high school (and there are plenty of shows about that).

See, in trying to make every PC, I feel that we're watering down potentially good stories. There's only one African-American in the show and he's kind of a bumbling fool. Is that wrong? Should we try to represent every race and creed in this show as well? I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great to have a diverse cast and I certainly appreciate the inclusion of characters with unique backgrounds.

I make the same argument for feminism that I do for racism in TV and movies. Instead of cramming in more token characters in order to appeal to a certain group, why not make new IPs instead? I'd be thrilled to have an action cartoon with a female lead or leads.



And since we're on the topic...
Easy on the "boy's show" talk! :D Ladies also enjoy action shows, and ones with mainly male casts. Lemme tell you guys the same thing I told my daughter when my niece asked her why she played with "boy's" toys: there is no such thing as boy's and girl's toys/shows. Anyone who says otherwise has been brainwashed by advertisers. ;)
Asking for more characters who aren't straight, white dudes is not the same as "cramming in more token characters." NYC is one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the world, and everyone has a story- so why should media portray only a small portion those stories: the ones that focus on straight white men? (The turtles are tricky to label with a race- we assume the last human they touched was Splinter, so we could say they are Japanese... yet they are all portrayed by white voice actors. We also don't know if race is something that even carries over through the mutation process.) But turtles aside, the race representation in this show is pretty good imo. I think we see a decent amount of POC in the background and as recurring characters. Unfortunately, as we've touched on before, so far it hasn't looked good for women's representation. Nick's TMNT is a new entity of it's own. So much of the show is entirely new or an interesting spin on an established idea. Why do you accept changes like the Kraang, or their origin story in general, yet oppose the idea of introducing a more diverse cast?

EDIT: Ideally there shouldn't be strictly boys' shows and girls' shows. But without female characters to identify with, a show that focuses on male characters may alienate female viewers.

[Candy Kappa]

Being a new show and a new take, the Nick show do have a handful of female characters from the various other incarnations to cherry pick and make great episodes of them. We'll just have to see what the future brings.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I actually wish Casey isn't a white guy, btw. But the show has race diversity, so props to that.


EDIT: Ideally there shouldn't be strictly boys' shows and girls' shows. But without female characters to identify with, a show that focuses on male characters may alienate female viewers.

Well, hopefully Nick wouldn't be shy using other female characters that the franchise had years ago.

[Hannah]

I would love to see Casey portrayed as a different race. I'd also loooove for Irma to be a sort of Willow Rosenberg character.

[CyberCubed]

Casey should not be anything but white and male.

[Hannah]

Casey should not be anything but white and male.
If you're gonna get all antsy over the concept of race or gender bending, this thread is probably not for you.

[demonsweat]

Uh, Sweaty, you forgot about Carlos Chiang O'Brien Gambe, the Channel Six news guy.

True. That guy covers a lotta bases! :D


Asking for more characters who aren't straight, white dudes is not the same as "cramming in more token characters." NYC is one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the world, and everyone has a story- so why should media portray only a small portion those stories: the ones that focus on straight white men? (The turtles are tricky to label with a race- we assume the last human they touched was Splinter, so we could say they are Japanese... yet they are all portrayed by white voice actors. We also don't know if race is something that even carries over through the mutation process.) But turtles aside, the race representation in this show is pretty good imo. I think we see a decent amount of POC in the background and as recurring characters. Unfortunately, as we've touched on before, so far it hasn't looked good for women's representation. Nick's TMNT is a new entity of it's own. So much of the show is entirely new or an interesting spin on an established idea. Why do you accept changes like the Kraang, or their origin story in general, yet oppose the idea of introducing a more diverse cast?

I don't oppose a diverse cast at all. I just don't think it necessary to create characters based on whether or not they represent real life groups. Let the story drive that. If the writers want to put in female characters, great. If not, I'm okay with what we have. See, to me it's more important that the existing female characters are portrayed well (ie, not as stereotypes). This isn't a show about April and Karai. They are supporting characters only -they should get about as much air time as any of the other male supporting characters, right?

I guess I'm not understanding what it is that you think is a poor representation of women here. The only two arguments I've seen in this thread are:

1. There are less females than males on the show, and
2. The existing female characters don't get enough focus/air time.

Point one isn't really valid because there have been several background female faces plus two supporting characters and a robo-villain. And it's way early in the show. I doubt these are the only females we're going to see before the end.

Point two I've already refuted. The story is about the turtles, who are four guys. You can't label something as sexist just because the main character(s) are male.

You're welcome to your opinion of course, but I can't agree with this. I don't want every show I watch or book I read to have an equal amount of male/female, white/black/asian/mixed, LGBT, human/mutant/furry, etc. I want characters to be created for the purpose of the story, not to satisfy an audience.

I do understand the concern for a lack of identifiable females and/or role models in the media. I'd just like to see more females in non-traditional, non-stereotypical roles all across the board. Which is something I think this show is doing a fine job of so far. My little girl runs around the house pretending to be Karai - not because she's "hot" or Leo's love interest... but because she's as ass-kicking ninja. :)

[CyberCubed]

If you're gonna get all antsy over the concept of race or gender bending, this thread is probably not for you.

Changing established characters races or gender's just for "token diversity" is a ridiculous thing to do. Introduce a new character if you want your token black/spanish/asian/indian/gay/lesbian character.

There's no reason to change what characters have been for over 25 years.

[Hannah]

I don't oppose a diverse cast at all. I just don't think it necessary to create characters based on whether or not they represent real life groups. Let the story drive that. If the writers want to put in female characters, great. If not, I'm okay with what we have. See, to me it's more important that the existing female characters are portrayed well (ie, not as stereotypes). This isn't a show about April and Karai. They are supporting characters only -they should get about as much air time as any of the other male supporting characters, right?

I guess I'm not understanding what it is that you think is a poor representation of women here. The only two arguments I've seen in this thread are:

1. There are less females than males on the show, and
2. The existing female characters don't get enough focus/air time.

Point one isn't really valid because there have been several background female faces plus two supporting characters and a robo-villain. And it's way early in the show. I doubt these are the only females we're going to see before the end.

Point two I've already refuted. The story is about the turtles, who are four guys. You can't label something as sexist just because the main character(s) are male.

You're welcome to your opinion of course, but I can't agree with this. I don't want every show I watch or book I read to have an equal amount of male/female, white/black/asian/mixed, LGBT, human/mutant/furry, etc. I want characters to be created for the purpose of the story, not to satisfy an audience.

I do understand the concern for a lack of identifiable females and/or role models in the media. I'd just like to see more females in non-traditional, non-stereotypical roles all across the board. Which is something I think this show is doing a fine job of so far. My little girl runs around the house pretending to be Karai - not because she's "hot" or Leo's love interest... but because she's as ass-kicking ninja. :)
The problem is that you are assuming that any female/POC inclusion means it's just happening to satisfy a certain audience, and not for the purpose of the story. If your writing for a show set in New York City doesn't involve women and people who aren't white more than occasionally, then your writing isn't at it's best.

Also, it's not just that there are fewer ladies- there are only two female characters while there are what, like, 23 male characters?

[Hannah]

Changing established characters races or gender's just for "token diversity" is a ridiculous thing to do. Introduce a new character if you want your token black/spanish/asian/indian/gay/lesbian character.

There's no reason to change what characters have been for over 25 years.
if you think that wanting a character to not be white is just for "token diversity" and not for, i dunno, a more interesting character

sorry but you're an idiot.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I wouldn't mind Casey having a mixed heritage, for example. I'm sure those exist in NYC.

As much as I would like April to look like her early Mirage counterpart, I can understand why she became a caucasian redhead, and that didn't change even in 2K3 (whereas Baxter Stockman reverted back as a black guy like in the comics).

[ToTheNines]

I actually wish Casey isn't a white guy, btw. But the show has race diversity, so props to that.

Total speculation here, but I've noticed that one of the Purple Dragon's (the big one) name is Sid, same as Casey's notorious sh*t head cousin.

Not saying it's definitely hinting, but it's possible that he'll turn out to be CJ's cousin and that Casey's half Asian. That'd be really cool. To be specific, I think all the Dragon's are Chinese.

If you're gonna get all antsy over the concept of race or gender bending, this thread is probably not for you.

Are you kidding? This forum isn't for him.

[Powder]

if you think that wanting a character to not be white is just for "token diversity" and not for, i dunno, a more interesting character

sorry but you're an idiot.

Except for Michael Jackson, who has ever been more interesting after having their color changed? What a ridiculous concept. It's like you're going out of your way to look super tolerant but instead you're making yourself look foolish.

[Dirty Blond]

Except for Michael Jackson, who has ever been more interesting after having their color changed? What a ridiculous concept. It's like you're going out of your way to look super tolerant but instead you're making yourself look foolish.

That's what happens to people who engage in identity politics.

[Hannah]

I am reminded why I don't come here more often.

[Dirty Blond]

I am reminded why I don't come here more often.

I like you!

:tgrin:

[BabyTurtles]

wait I'm confused.....are we still talking about the girls or what? XD......

as for changing someone's race, I don't want that :3 I like April as April and Casey as Casey :3 I also like Xever as Xever and Karai as Karai and so on XD

why change them? they are okay now!


speaking of which simple question.....is Angel black? or mixed?? cause she looks black....but I could be totally wrong :3 ( I like her purple lip-stick)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3634/3458182853_02d6cdbcfd.jpg

[ToTheNines]

Except for Michael Jackson, who has ever been more interesting after having their color changed?

I liked Michael Clarke Duncan's portrayal of Kingpin (yes I admit to liking Dare Devil), my favorite Green Lantern is probably John Stewart (I guess this one doesn't count). Just a couple off the top of my head.

The ultimate one though is Aqualad. He also technically doesn't count because lame ass Garth still exists (and steals his girlfriend lol) but Kaldur'ahm is one of my favorite super heroes. I never would have believed you if you told me 2-3 years ago that I'd be a huge Aqualad fan someday.

In the realm of TMNT, I think Hun would work better as an Asian-American. But as far as character's that have already had their race changed, only one I can think of is Baxter. It ultimately didn't matter too much because he turned into a fly, but I can't stand the PC reasoning behind making him white in the OT.

[BabyTurtles]

I liked Michael Clarke Duncan's portrayal of

The ultimate one though is Aqualad. He also technically doesn't count because lame ass Garth still exists (and steals his girlfriend lol) but Kaldur'ahm is one of my favorite super heroes. I never would have believed you if you told me 2-3 years ago that I'd be a huge Aqualad fan someday.

.

I love Aqualad(Kaldur)!!! they made him awesome!

[demonsweat]

The problem is that you are assuming that any female/POC inclusion means it's just happening to satisfy a certain audience, and not for the purpose of the story. If your writing for a show set in New York City doesn't involve women and people who aren't white more than occasionally, then your writing isn't at it's best.

Nah, I'm not assuming that. This show has diverse characters. I don't think any of them are in there to satisfy an audience, and I believe they do fit the story. I just don't think it's fair to label the show as sexist/racist/whatever because it doesn't have more of those characters.

Also, it's not just that there are fewer ladies- there are only two female characters while there are what, like, 23 male characters?

Citation needed. But yeah, okay - there are more men than women on the show. My point is this: a disproportionate amount of genders in a work of fiction does not warrant the ugly label of sexism, no more than a disproportionate amount of races warrants the label of racism. You're only seeing this because that's what you're sensitive to. For example, the African-American characters on the show are fewer and have gotten even less air time than the female characters. Are we correct in assuming that the show is racist towards African Americans, then? It's all relative, y'know?


Anyways, here's a cute turtle picture to lighten the mood. I like to think of this one as Raphael, pre-mutation.
http://i.imgur.com/G0G2BSS.jpg

[demonsweat]

But as far as character's that have already had their race changed, only one I can think of is Baxter. It ultimately didn't matter too much because he turned into a fly, but I can't stand the PC reasoning behind making him white in the OT.

Now that I agree with. Whitewashing baaaaad.

Wasn't April originally of a mixed race in the Mirage comics, or am I remembering wrong?

[BabyTurtles]

Now that I agree with. Whitewashing baaaaad.

Wasn't April originally of a mixed race in the Mirage comics, or am I remembering wrong?

IDK...maybe?? :)

heres a pic: http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091113172717/tmnt/images/f/f1/Mirage-april.jpg

[CyberCubed]

PL said April was always white, the only reason she looks dark skinned in some Mirage issues was because Kevin was trying to make her look like his real-life girlfriend at the time, who was in fact named, "April" and was black.

[BabyTurtles]

PL said April was always white, the only reason she looks dark skinned in some Mirage issues was because Kevin was trying to make her look like his real-life girlfriend at the time, who was in fact named, "April" and was black.

really? cool info :3

[Hannah]

Citation needed. But yeah, okay- there are more men than women on the show. My point is this: a disproportionate amount of genders in a work of fiction does not warrant the ugly label of sexism, no more than a disproportionate amount of races warrants the label of racism. You're only seeing this because that's what you're sensitive to. For example, the African-American characters on the show are fewer and have gotten even less air time than the female characters. Are we correct in assuming that the show is racist towards African Americans, then? It's all relative, y'know?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Teenage_Mutant_Ninja_Turtles_%282012%29_ch aracters

I count 23, not including the Kraang or Foot Soldiers.

It's not really outright sexism or racism, but under representation of minority groups is a problem that contributes to and benefits from both sexism and racism.

[demonsweat]

It's not really outright sexism or racism, but under representation of minority groups is a problem that contributes to and benefits from both sexism and racism.

Okay, that is true. However, I believe the solution is not to force an equal amount of every type of human being into every work of fiction. I would more like to see new IPs that shake up the status quo, such as (like I said) action oriented shows with average-looking female leads, or maybe an African-American cop with a white guy as his sidekick.


http://i.imgur.com/lco7hN4.jpg

[plastroncafe]

Changing established characters races or gender's just for "token diversity" is a ridiculous thing to do. Introduce a new character if you want your token black/spanish/asian/indian/gay/lesbian character.

There's no reason to change what characters have been for over 25 years.

Except for Michael Jackson, who has ever been more interesting after having their color changed? What a ridiculous concept. It's like you're going out of your way to look super tolerant but instead you're making yourself look foolish.

Off the top of my head? Boomer and Starbuck from the revamp of Battlestar Galactica.

Nick Fury from a little comic book called Ultimate Avengers, who was then awesomely played by Sam Jackson.

Kingpin was already mentioned.

Alfred Molina as Doc Ock.

Then there's Idris Elba as Heimdall and Tadanobu Asano as Hogun.

Shall I go on?

[Cipher]

I am reminded why I don't come here more often.
: (


I don't oppose a diverse cast at all. I just don't think it necessary to create characters based on whether or not they represent real life groups. Let the story drive that. If the writers want to put in female characters, great. If not, I'm okay with what we have. See, to me it's more important that the existing female characters are portrayed well (ie, not as stereotypes). This isn't a show about April and Karai. They are supporting characters only -they should get about as much air time as any of the other male supporting characters, right?
See, there are really three things going on here:

1) It's not just that it's uneven. There are two women and god knows how many men, from the main cast to ancillary characters.

2) Poor ratios or poor gender portrayals are just unrealistic. Diversity should be a requirement for stories because it's a fact of life. You know more than two women. Even the Turtles, at the rate they're meeting people, should know more than two women. And while the portrayals have been pretty good (though again, not ideal), we're not hitting this mark yet. So short of any moral/socio-political posturing aside, a story is never hurt for adding a more diverse, accurately portrayed cast.

3) This is a children's show, and a really good one at that, so it's fair to be more concerned with how it approaches issues of gender. We may be watching this fully formed, but it's reaching a lot of kids who are still very much forming their views of the world. So, yeah, I think it'd be boss if it could show girls something really positive.

All of these issues apply to depictions of race as well, which is why, if we're going there, I would have no problem with a non-white Casey. Sometimes race is an essential part of a character, but I'd say with Casey it really, really isn't. And to the extent that Turtles has a certain core cast to work with, NYC is extremely diverse, and I'm all for getting another non-white character into a major, non-stereotypical role in a popular children's cartoon, hell yeah, I'd be down for that. Sure, changing an established character's race has the potential to be patronizing, but that all rests on the execution.

Citation needed. But yeah, okay - there are more men than women on the show. My point is this: a disproportionate amount of genders in a work of fiction does not warrant the ugly label of sexism, no more than a disproportionate amount of races warrants the label of racism. You're only seeing this because that's what you're sensitive to. For example, the African-American characters on the show are fewer and have gotten even less air time than the female characters. Are we correct in assuming that the show is racist towards African Americans, then? It's all relative, y'know?
I think people get confused on this. 1) Sexism (or racism) doesn't have to be intentional or malicious; it just has to reinforce the existing institutions. 2) I don't think anyone has said Turtles is doing anything those lines; it could just do better still.

I do understand the concern for a lack of identifiable females and/or role models in the media. I'd just like to see more females in non-traditional, non-stereotypical roles all across the board. Which is something I think this show is doing a fine job of so far. My little girl runs around the house pretending to be Karai - not because she's "hot" or Leo's love interest... but because she's as ass-kicking ninja.
So, see, this does have a positive effect when it's done well. There's nothing wrong with wanting it to be even better.

Also, Occulus Orbus had a great post a page back.

[demonsweat]

Off the top of my head? Boomer and Starbuck from the revamp of Battlestar Galactica.

Nick Fury from a little comic book called Ultimate Avengers, who was then awesomely played by Sam Jackson.

Kingpin was already mentioned.

Alfred Molina as Doc Ock.

Then there's Idris Elba as Heimdall and Tadanobu Asano as Hogun.

Shall I go on?


Not trying to argue, but were those characters more interesting because of the change in race, specifically? Sam Jackson is pretty awesome, but that's because he's awesome, not because he's black. [slight threadjack: he was SO GOOD in Django Unchained.] :D

[plastroncafe]

Those were characters argued by fanboys, and in the case of Starbuck the original actor to play the role, to have been ruined by casting.

[demonsweat]

See, there are really three things going on here:

1) It's not just that it's uneven. There are two women and god knows how many men, from the main cast to ancillary characters.

2) Poor ratios or poor gender portrayals are just unrealistic. Diversity should be a requirement for stories because it's a fact of life. You know more than two women. Even the Turtles, at the rate they're meeting people, should know more than two women. And while the portrayals have been pretty good (though again, not ideal), we're not hitting this mark yet. So short of any moral/socio-political posturing aside, a story is never hurt for adding a more diverse, accurately portrayed cast.

Ooh, gotta call ya out on this one. Some stories cannot be told this way. War flicks, for instance, aren't going to feature many women. And that's as it should be, because of historical accuracy (something that is changing today and is awesome, allow me to add. I hope future war flicks will do so AND be historically accurate to boot. :D). Another example: I used to work in the software industry and I gotta tell ya, that's a heavily male-dominated workforce. Any movie portraying that industry would not be accurate if it featured an equal ratio of men to woman. To focus on female roles outside of this story (say, delivery women, mothers, I dunno... wives, etc.) might take away from the story being told.

Bottom line, every story cannot be equally diverse and satisfy every group. My hope is that more stories will be told from non-traditional POVs, that Hollywood might finally realize that they can put a black man in a lead role without marketing the whole thing towards "the urban crowd." The turtles... well, they could add more females. And they might. But the story centers on the four guys, everything else is gravy IMO.


3) This is a children's show, and a really good one at that, so it's fair to be more concerned with how it approaches issues of gender. We may be watching this fully formed, but it's reaching a lot of kids who are still very much forming their views of the world. So, yeah, I think it'd be boss if it could show girls something really positive.

Totally could not agree more. I guess I don't find fault with this show because the females here so far (and again, it's pretty early on yet) have been kick ass. I'd much rather let my kid watch this show than the junk aimed at girls - all the tween crap, the bratz dolls, the monster high stuff... that stuff is junk. It's all about fashion and boys. Which is fine to an extent, but damn... let the girls read a book or discuss physics for an episode.


I think people get confused on this. 1) Sexism (or racism) doesn't have to be intentional or malicious; it just has to reinforce the existing institutions. 2) I don't think anyone has said Turtles is doing anything those lines; it could just do better still.


So, see, this does have a positive effect when it's done well. There's nothing wrong with wanting it to be even better.

Casual racism, casual sexism. Point taken. :D Me, I actually think it is being done well... I don't care for April myself, but I freaking love Karai. She's so badass and she's got a sharp wit. She leads teams of Foot soldiers. I guess that's what I'm saying - instead of upping the ratio of male:female, spend more time really developing a few solid female characters and I'll be happy enough.


And another cute turtle pic, for good measure.
http://i.imgur.com/DvCE0kq.jpg

[demonsweat]

Those were characters argued by fanboys, and in the case of Starbuck the original actor to play the role, to have been ruined by casting.

Eh, fanboys. :roll: Heard the same junk when they cast that one guy in the Thor movie, but I didn't see a problem with it. It's not like Thor is even remotely similar to Norse mythology, so who cares if every character looks like a Nord, it's just fantasy.

[plastroncafe]

Ooh, gotta call ya out on this one. Some stories cannot be told this way. War flicks, for instance, aren't going to feature many women. And that's as it should be, because of historical accuracy (something that is changing today and is awesome, allow me to add. I hope future war flicks will do so AND be historically accurate to boot. :D). Another example: I used to work in the software industry and I gotta tell ya, that's a heavily male-dominated workforce. Any movie portraying that industry would not be accurate if it featured an equal ratio of men to woman. To focus on female roles outside of this story (say, delivery women, mothers, I dunno... wives, etc.) might take away from the story being told.


No.
It's historically inaccurate to pretend that women had no historical role in war.
Also, anecdotal evidence should not be confused with data. Women have been involved with the computer industry from the get go.

But by all means, let's continue building this straw man to prop up the idea that women are only necessary when the plot depends on it. Because...it's not like they're real characters, or have real stories to be told.

[Cipher]

Ooh, gotta call ya out on this one. Some stories cannot be told this way. War flicks, for instance, aren't going to feature many women. And that's as it should be, because of historical accuracy (something that is changing today and is awesome, allow me to add. I hope future war flicks will do so AND be historically accurate to boot. :D).
Right, which is fine, but the Turtles aren't in a WWII theater.

But I think we only disagree by a matter of degrees.

[The Big Bad]

You know, I was initially going to huff and puff about how y'all were referencing my blog posts (http://doknowbutchie.wordpress.com/2012/10/04/wherein-ian-tries-to-teach-feminism-101-or-why-the-pilot-episode-of-tmnt-2012-is-highly-problematic/) without ever mentioning my name, and maybe thinking that I needed a PR person, because am I really that forgettable?...and then I realized that I'd posted that in my other blog, the one I don't link to in my signature.

Oops. Also, that post needed an editor.

In any case...

I know this might be a longshot, but has anyone written/read any reviews or analyses of the new show from a feminist perspective? I'm writing one right now and would love to hear others' input. I'll probably post it here when I'm done; not sure if any of you are even into that. Would love to discuss here too! I am way fond of April in this show.

We should totally be friends (This goes for you too, Cipher and plastroncafe). I've been wanting to discuss this with people for ages, and I've known that there's some Technodromers who'd be game for it, but haven't had the courage/willpower to just start a topic on it. ^_^!. In addition to the already-linked post, there's also a follow-up post on why Donatello is totally a Nice Guy (TM), and why that is problematic (http://doknowbutchie.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/teenage-mutant-ninja-nice-guy/), and then these (http://nymonsters.wordpress.com/2013/02/02/manic-pixie-dream-ninja-girl-tmnt-2012-new-girl-in-town/) two (http://nymonsters.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/just-to-be-clear/), which deal with the issue more tangentially (read the comments, and feel free to comment yourself). And because I am totally not the only one talking about this, there's also this (http://fantasiawandering.tumblr.com/post/39531262880/the-mega-emperorcaligulove-okay-i-have-a), and the blog Scattered Ramblings (http://ollieramblings.tumblr.com/), which frequently tackles both feminism and the TMNT, occasionally has posts that tackle them both at the same time, like so (http://ollieramblings.tumblr.com/post/42428872313/chantillyxlacey-tordles-tmnt2k12).

[demonsweat]

No.
It's historically inaccurate to pretend that women had no historical role in war.
Also, anecdotal evidence should not be confused with data. Women have been involved with the computer industry from the get go.


Easy now, don't misunderstand me. Women definitely had a role in war, but their numbers were much smaller. That's history. If you're telling a story from the trenches, there will be no women there. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that it is. And wow, I hope it changes. I'm all for it.

Women are involved in the computer software industry. I was one of them. I worked with many of the largest North American software developers, not just a single company. I don't want to give out too much info here. But I can tell you without a doubt that the industry is crazily male-dominated. That's a fact, not anecdotal. Again, not something I'm thrilled about, but it is changing. Slowly, but it is. And that's awesome! But a movie based on this time, this period would be forcing female characters into roles and that's not accurate.


But by all means, let's continue building this straw man to prop up the idea that women are only necessary when the plot depends on it. Because...it's not like they're real characters, or have real stories to be told.

Whoa, whoa. Come on, that's totally not what I said. :-? I just don't want to see characters forced into a story, male, female, or whatever. Dude, women are not a part of every story, just like men are not a part of every story. My whole position from the get-go was that I'd like to see more stories told from the POV of women.


Damn. This calls for the cutest turtle pic I have. :ohwell:
http://i.imgur.com/lYrMFWS.jpg
Turtle Soup! source: http://yabbles.deviantart.com/art/turtle-soup-84762262

[Cipher]

We should totally be friends (This goes for you too, Cipher and plastroncafe). I've been wanting to discuss this with people for ages, and I've known that there's some Technodromers who'd be game for it, but haven't had the courage/willpower to just start a topic on it. ^_^!. In addition to the already-linked post, there's also a follow-up post on why Donatello is totally a Nice Guy (TM), and why that is problematic (http://doknowbutchie.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/teenage-mutant-ninja-nice-guy/), and then these (http://nymonsters.wordpress.com/2013/02/02/manic-pixie-dream-ninja-girl-tmnt-2012-new-girl-in-town/) two (http://nymonsters.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/just-to-be-clear/), which deal with the issue more tangentially (read the comments, and feel free to comment yourself). And because I am totally not the only one talking about this, there's also this (http://fantasiawandering.tumblr.com/post/39531262880/the-mega-emperorcaligulove-okay-i-have-a), and the blog Scattered Ramblings (http://ollieramblings.tumblr.com/), which frequently tackles both feminism and the TMNT, occasionally has posts that tackle them both at the same time, like so (http://ollieramblings.tumblr.com/post/42428872313/chantillyxlacey-tordles-tmnt2k12).
Word. Agreed with all or most.

IDK about Donatello being a "nice guy" though. At times it borders on problematic and creepy, but the whole improbability of it all (which is obvious to the viewer) and the extent to which it does represent how a lot of childhood crushes work (and they are children) take a lot off it. That, and I really think it's going to blow up in his face or he's going to have to get over it in some way.

Were he actually successful, that would be a huge problem (also an act against whatever god you believe in). And I remember seeing some shows take that route when I was a kid. Actually, I feel like a lot of kids' shows and movies do that -- the unrequited best friend getting the girl with one miraculous feat. That's obviously not in the cards here.

[Dirty Blond]

He's only creepy because he's an ugly mutant turtle. If he had looks, money and status, April would spit on her mother's face to hook up with Donatello.

By the way, where do you think Nice Guy Syndrome comes from? The onus on acceptance or rejection is entirely on the male. The female, no matter her looks, money or status has her pick.

[Cipher]

He's only creepy because he's an ugly mutant turtle. If he had looks, money and status, April would spit in her mother's face to hook up with Donatello.
Haha, oh sh**.

It's some real old-timey sexism!

[plastroncafe]

Obvious troll is obvious.

[The Big Bad]

Ooh, gotta call ya out on this one. Some stories cannot be told this way. War flicks, for instance, aren't going to feature many women. And that's as it should be, because of historical accuracy[...]

To expand on what plastroncafe has already said, you paint an inaccurate picture. Yes, depending on the war, women may be vastly outnumbered in the front lines, but war is hardly limited to that particular milieu. Women have always been vital in war and have always been affected by war: the reason why that isn't usually acknowledged is because society (specifically, the Patriarchy) has a vested interest in diminishing their contributions and claiming that the only interesting part of war are the parts with violence (see: the amount of "front line" war movies compared with those focusing on those left behind).

speaking of which simple question.....is Angel black? or mixed?? cause she looks black....but I could be totally wrong :3 ( I like her purple lip-stick)

Biracial, from the looks of it. Her grandmother is definitively coded as a black person, while her brother has features that read Caucasian.

[demonsweat]

Right, which is fine, but the Turtles aren't in a WWII theater.

But I think we only disagree by a matter of degrees.

True, true. Maybe not the best example but... well, I guess I just don't want to see PCness in everything. I don't want every show/story to conform to perfect values, I just want more diversity across the board. I want more shows added to the mix, like Powerpuff Girls and Billy & Mandy. I do think the point that [edit: YOU, not pcafe... sorry about that] made about this topic being more important because it's a kid's show is solid, though.

Ordinarily I wouldn't go on in a debate like this, but I must admit that having a young daughter has made me think on this topic quite a bit. Apologies if I've offended anyone. Just thinking out loud here, heh. :ohwell:

[Dirty Blond]

Haha, oh sh**.

It's some real old-timey sexism!

We have a 10/10 male here who thinks it's his personality that attracts women!

[demonsweat]

To expand on what plastroncafe has already said, you paint an inaccurate picture. Yes, depending on the war, women may be vastly outnumbered in the front lines, but war is hardly limited to that particular milieu. Women have always been vital in war and have always been affected by war: the reason why that isn't usually acknowledged is because society (specifically, the Patriarchy) has a vested interest in diminishing their contributions and claiming that the only interesting part of war are the parts with violence (see: the amount of "front line" war movies compared with those focusing on those left behind)

It's not really inaccurate because we're clearing talking about two different things. I never said women didn't have a role... look, I was just trying to point out that some stories revolve around men, some around women. That's not bad, it's just different. And that's okay. What isn't okay is that the majority of stories in our society revolve around men. Let's change that! :D

[BabyTurtles]

Biracial, from the looks of it. Her grandmother is definitively coded as a black person, while her brother has features that read Caucasian.

thank you for answering me!! XD I was beginning to think no one saw my question XD I asked because I drew Angel and wasn't sure.....see :3

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt236/Renkel76/d8e265d0-f00a-4032-93ea-cea5f218ed16_zpscfdb13f3.jpg

(I made her younger XD since everyone in TMNT seems young now)

[Cipher]

True, true. Maybe not the best example but... well, I guess I just don't want to see PCness in everything. I don't want every show/story to conform to perfect values, I just want more diversity across the board.
Oh, I definitely don't want "perfect values." My preferred type of fiction is, like, literary short stories about mostly terrible people. I'm all for subversion.

But again, it's a matter of realism (one or two women or badly stereotyped women does not good fiction make) and, particularly in the case of popular shows aimed at children, I think it's the right thing to do to question how it works as far as providing role models. Because, yeah, that's important.

No condemnation of Turtles. That's just a general statement.

We have a 10/10 male here who thinks it's his personality that attracts women!
I'm flattered. Best compliment I've received all week. Let's date.

[demonsweat]

Oh, I definitely don't want "perfect values." My preferred type of fiction is, like, literary short stories about mostly terrible people. I'm all for subversion.

But again, it's a matter of realism (one or two women or badly stereotyped women does not good fiction make) and, particularly in the case of popular shows aimed at children, I think it's the right thing to do to question how it works as far as providing role models. Because, yeah, that's important.

No condemnation of Turtles. That's just a general statement.

Gotcha. And yes, good to question. Always good to question. :D

http://i.imgur.com/XVjJmOj.jpg

[Avatar Yuffie]

Still, I admit the complaints are valid. I wish Angel was with the current Purple Dragons, as I see no reason why she shouldn't... other than the Nick writers are afraid showing the Turtles hit women. Which is ridiculous, so I hope not.

And for the sake of wishful thinking she'd be voiced by Whoopi Goldberg.

[CyberCubed]

The Nick writers have a vendetta against the 4kids show. I think Greg Cripes flat out said he didn't even bother to watch the 4kids series when someone asked him about it.

Just be glad Tom Waltz and the IDW crew are more respectful to that series.

[Pterobat]

Yeah, having half the human race, or any other minority group, shouldn't be seen as something that must be "forced" into a story, always be a "token", that needs a "reason" to be there. It should be seen as an organic and neutral part of writing business.

Sadly, we aren't there yet.

I don't view alleged realism even as a reason to exclude characters of a certain type from a certain setting, at least in certain ways. Historical accuracy issues might be a justification, but when it comes to things set in fantasy worlds, or even in the modern day, those rules can be broken, even if they didn't exist for the real-life parallel, i.e. a fictitious medieval society could end up with female warriors by the boatload.

When it comes to swapping a character's race or gender, it doesn't cut the same both ways. Because female and minority characters are rarer, changing characters to be these things goes down easier than making them white dudes.

And yeah, I've got White Baxter as my avatar, currently, but I don't support any whitewashing on principle, including his. Any issues with him could have been resolved by not making him a regular character instead of giving him a racelift, and to my lower brain region, FW Baxter feels fundamentally "fake" to me.

I just...happen to like the character, though for the little it's worth, I think 4Kids Stockman is the best version of him, and whom I like equally.

[BabyTurtles]

4-kid Baxter Stockman scared me when I was younger....

he was okay at first...then Shedder kept messing him up......first it was just his eye...then his legs...then his body!! then he was just a brain!!

I can't be the only person disturbed by that!!?

[Candy Kappa]

Not all characters need to keep their original gender/race/sexual orientation. if their core basis don't need any of them to work, then change away. As long as the character is recognizable and well written. Alan Scott is gay, Jimmy Olsen gender bendered. Or Ripley from Aliens, Ripley was written with no specific gender or race in mind.

Since Casey is now a teenager and will probably not marry April and have an adopted child, taking the Fred Wolf version, what's to say Casey is a dude or Caucasian. As long as you fill the criteria: crazy, hokey mask, vigilante and crazy. That's FW Casey, and the Eastwood impersonation.

.
Nick Fury from a little comic book called Ultimate Avengers, who was then awesomely played by Sam Jackson.
Ult. Fury got a complete make over though, not just Italian American turned African American but also background story and personality change.

Ult Fury is a complete a**hole and a very unlikeable character (as most of the Ultimate Universe). Luckily he is more 616 personality in the movies.


Then there's Idris Elba as Heimdall
Not trying to argue, but were those characters more interesting because of the change in race, specifically?
It's not like Thor is even remotely similar to Norse mythology, so who cares if every character looks like a Nord, it's just fantasy.

As a Norwegian, I do care how the Æsir is portrayed. true that Thor is completely different then his rl counterpart and Sif don't have golden hair. these things still matter to me.

And it is interesting to make the whitest of all Æsir to a black guy, But black people do exist within the Viking world view. referred as Blue Men, the Vikings did travel to Africa among other places as Wineland (America) and Persia.

And I'm sure there are some that might over-think it and see racism in the same vein as the PS4 conference that they had no women on stage so sexism; since all black people are gansta and rappers, and have all gold teeth. Because Heimdall was not only the white one, but he also had golden teeth, hence one of his other names Gullinntanne (Golden teeth).

But I love Idris Elba as Heimdall, making the Bifrost guardian different is interesting. and his skin color really compliments Gold armor and makes him very radiant, hence the "white one". In the end, as long as the character looks good, it's okay. Even if it's a deity in a Superhero movie, I think it's portrayal is important and Elba was a good choice to make Heimdall stand out, and unique, since I think most people would probably have gone opposite and made him look Albino in the skin.

Now, Hogun is not, I repeat not a real Norse god and is a Asian/Mongolian character. he is a Marvel Comics creation.

He's only creepy because he's an ugly mutant turtle.
If he was human, he would have been Ross in season 1 of Friends, minus the childhood crush. But he acts very similar.

[demonsweat]

As a Norwegian, I do care how the Æsir is portrayed. true that Thor is completely different then his rl counterpart and Sif don't have golden hair. these things still matter to me.

Fair enough. I never read the comic, but I am somewhat familiar with the mythology. I always understood the comic to be very fantasy-driven so I didn't think it mattered much.

And it is interesting to make the whitest of all Æsir to a black guy, But black people do exist within the Viking world view. referred as Blue Men, the Vikings did travel to Africa among other places as Wineland (America) and Persia.

And PILLAGED THEM

[Shredded]

As a Norwegian, I do care how the Æsir is portrayed. true that Thor is completely different then his rl counterpart and Sif don't have golden hair. these things still matter to me.



As I am a Dane, I can sympathise here, but.. when it comes to Marvel Thor, I think we are at a point now, where we all must relax and acknowledge the fact, that the character was written and concieved by a man whom knew nothing about Norse mythology, and honestly didn't care.
Stan Lee had just heard about some kind of a viking god with a hammer, thought it sounded cool, and made a comic book out of it, without caring the least bit about it being a tribute to source material.

Hell, I very litterately heard him say this in a inteview.

"The greek gods were used all the time, and every-body knew what that was about, then I stumbled across the Norse gods and figured, no one knows any-thing about those! so I can just do what-ever I want with them! It's a fresh take where I can do what-ever I want."

.... urgh.. thanks douch. I love Stan Lee, but that statement made me cringe... all though it does explain every-thing about the conception of Thor, doesn't it? -_-;

If you want to point to some-thing in popular geek culture that is much more true to norse mythology.. Lord of the rings!

Because Lord of the rings was written by a man whom loved norse mythology, knew every-thing about it, and used it as a heavy influence in his books, pulling creatures, myths and ideas straight out of norse mythology to put into his works, while being highly respectful about it.

Lord of the rings is a much better fictional representation of norse mythology than Thor is.

But you know, removing all links from Thor to norse mythology and let it stand as its own thing, as it should... since it has nothing in common with norse mythology except some names.. then it's pretty decent.

Oh and if you want to read comic books which are much more true to Norse Mythology.
I recommend the serial. "Valhalla." it's great :)




As for gender-bending characters.. Yes! Yes I am all for the genderbending.

I would much rather have them gender-bend a character, so the character has a function and a reason in the story, and just happen to be a woman, then if you just add extra token women whom has nothing to do and just sort of stands there in the back-ground.



And guys, honestly... the best sort of female characters out there is when it doesn't even matter that they are female.
As soon as you don't have a second thought about them being female, then we really archieved some-thing.
When you think about it, then it's not really good enough yet.

And when it comes to animation.. it does become a little weirder to talk about when talking race. because you delibaretely end up designing characters.
When-ever casting life actors, I would say.
"I don't care what skin colour they have, I just want the person whom fits the character the most, and can play him/her best."

In "life of the living dead." the main character wasn't written particularly for a black man, a black man just ended up casting so well, and fit the part so well that he got it, which honestly is the way to do it.
And as some-one all-ready pointed out. "Alien." wasn't even written for a woman, the main character was compleately gender-neutral, and it was actually a last minute decision to say. "Hey.. what if we made him into a her?"

When it comes to animation though.. I don't know.. cast the voice actors first and then base the designs around the voice-actors actual ethniticity?
In either case, particular in this show, race is not a problem at all! the only actual white people we have seen is April, Kirby O'Neil, Bradford and Doctor Falco.

Rest is of other ethniticity, mutants or alien robots.

And I don't know how many are aware of it, but the reason why Stockman is white in the 80's show, is because it was still in those pre-racist time, and the show didn't want to get into trouble by having a black man being in the servance of a white man..
Which is sort of odd since Oroku Saki is asien not white, so it would be a black man working for an asian man and eventually an alien, but I digress.

[Candy Kappa]

Valhalla is a great comic. One explanation why Marvel Thor is so different, is that they change slightly each time Ragnarok happen.

[shuriken]

Femnism isn't about making women superior. And movements need names so that everyone can identify with (at least some of) their basic ideas. It's not the fault of the movement that the wider culture has turned the name feminism into a curse word.

Nice to see someone gets it. For some reason Feminism seems to equate sexism towards males. And that's just foolishness.
2k3 had a much stronger female presence at this point with Angel Sidney and April. But it's still early on, hopefully we'll see some female mutants/ sexually ambiguous mutants.
Donnie's infatuation with her is just that, an infatuation. It could be anyone really, I just think it's funny that Donnie has it that bad for April to the point he doesn't know how to react. April knows Donnie is crushing on her and just doesn't try to make a big deal of it.
Karai on the other hand is just screwing with Leo which is awesome. She is playing him pretty easily.

[The Big Bad]

I just discovered what the Multi-Quote icon does. The power...THE POWER!!

In any case, I don't have the time or the ability to answer everything, so here's a random sampling of responses.

For all that has been written about the chauvinism of male cartoons (and it's not entirely invalid), I'd argue that a lot of these shows are more progressive than girl-centric shows, in that they at least had a few strong females. Superfriends had Wonder Woman, the original feminist heroine. Transformers had Arcee. G.I. Joe had Scarlet and Lady Jaye. By contrast, a lot of stuff made for girls actually reinforces female stereotypes propped up by chauvinism, like pink stuff, tea parties, lack of conflict, etc.

I would disagree.

Those shows you mention are not as helpful as you seem to think. Yes, it's good for shows to argue that women are just as capable as men at things that are traditionally coded masculine (although the argument in these cases is usually that only exceptional women are capable, which is a sexist fallacy); however, this is only half the battle. The other half is asserting that those things coded as feminine "parties, pink stuff, tea parties, lack of conflict" can be just as important as those things that are coded as masculine, and in the end shouldn't be coded at all.

This is the main importance of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic and the brony phenomenon. Its peripheral fandom is a good sign that that message--that "girly" things are important things--is getting through.

The reason TMNT doesn't have females is because females are really just love interests on TV shows. And the idea of a giant walking turtle falling in love with a human is creepy. The Nick show tries to make it look cute, but it's pretty disturbing if you think about it.

Like people have said, even if this is the case, why go with the flow? Why can't the show strive to be better than that?

I find nothing sexist about this show. The TMNT story is about four male mutant turtles - that's the story being told here. Any other character is going to be a supporting character and won't have as much focus. I find it strange that some people think that the amount of female characters vs. the amount of male characters in a show determines whether or not it's sexist.

Yes it does, because the less characters belonging to a group you have, the less chance that they will be treated as individual people rather than tokens. What's more, less diversity makes it considerably easier for the show to inadvertently send problematic messages.

Lets take our two women, April and Karai. One is coded as a good guy, and other other is, for now, coded as a bad guy. One, April, has been so far played as asexual; the other, Karai, has been portrayed as one who is aware of her sexuality and is confident about it--she flirts easily, and she has little problem expressing interest.

Now, female sexuality, despite what conservatives say, is not a bad thing. One can be a good person and still be confident, and flirty, and openly sexual. However, because this version of the TMNT has only two women in it, that message can't really be made properly. As fine as it is for April to be asexual and for Karai to be sexual, a universe in which all good women are asexual and all bad women are sexual, and which therefore conflates female sexuality with morality, is not fine.


I actually do find it offensive when some people go looking for sexism in things like this. There are plenty of things out there more deserving and it really just hurts the whole feminism cause, to be honest. Nitpicking this show is missing the forest for the trees - these females aren't making sammiches for the turtles, they're fighting them and cracking wise.

Well, you're welcome to be offended, but that won't stop any of them from talking about what they feel is important (which is usually all of it).

I like TMNT. I don't want it to promote sexist ideas. Therefore, I will rail against its sexism when I see it. This does not mean I won't rally about any of the many many forms of sexism when I decide to do so.


Sure April and Karai were given "the girls the guys had hots for thing" but April doesn't seem to be interested and Karai seems to be just trolling Leo while showing off she's independent. She had the foresight to look at the Kraang and defying her father.

The problem with them both being love interests is that until Ms. Campbell, it seemed like the only way we'd get female characters is by making them love interests.

Think of it this way. What reason is there for Kirby O'Neil, Snakeweed, Spiderbytez, Carlos Chiang O'Brien Gambe, Murakami, Pigeon Pete, the Purple Dragons, Bradford, Xever, and the default Kraang body to be men? There's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have been women, and yet every time they decided to make that decision, they decided to make them men. Until Ms. Campbell, the only two characters that didn't get made men were the two who absolutely could not have been made into male characters, for reasons having to do with historical precedent (although that's less important than most people suggest and is, to a degree, irrelevant) and because of their roles as love interests for the turtles.

So, a double standard is established: male characters don't need to have a reason to exist. Until Ms. Campbell broke the trend in episode 15--and she may yet prove to be only an outlier--female characters invariably did.

At this point the 2k3 also only had two women! April and Angel, and that was it at this point.

Actually, no: we also had Nano's creator, Quarry/Sydney, and the various extras with specific contexts, establishing that women were a part of the world could and were gang members, bank tellers, partygoers, homeless, kidnapping victims, etc. Plus, by this point, the series had rallied against the fallacy of thinking of men as the default (Sydney), established that women need not be maternal to be considered "good", and although far from perfect, generally heads and shoulders above this one when it came to women.

The fatal robot did not have to be a woman, that was a decision the writers made.

Yes, once. When it came to all of the other original characters, they went the other way. It's hardly commendable--it's doing the bare minimum.


I've argued for more women before on this forum, and it's by conciouse choice that I never use the word. "Feminism." as I rather give solid arguments beside it. OhmygoshIgettoquoteThePrincessBride! I don't think that word means what you think it means. If you'd like, I can help you with that.


IDK about Donatello being a "nice guy" though. At times it borders on problematic and creepy, but the whole improbability of it all (which is obvious to the viewer) and the extent to which it [I]does represent how a lot of childhood crushes work (and they are children) take a lot off it. That, and I really think it's going to blow up in his face or he's going to have to get over it in some way.

Were he actually successful, that would be a huge problem (also an act against whatever god you believe in).

I don't quite agree, for reasons I explain in the post and shan't repeat again--this is long enough already. Plus, I don't think Don's success or failure has any bearing on the trope's problematicness. After all, just because women don't often go for Nice Guys doesn't mean they aren't being dehumanized, or that their agency isn't being disrespected. And realistic or not--and I agree that it is--I feel the show could be doing a considerably better job of showing how his behavior is wrong than it actually is. They're still presenting it as romantic and harmless, when it is neither.

[Avatar Yuffie]

establishing that women were a part of the world could and were gang members, bank tellers, partygoers, homeless, kidnapping victims, etc. Plus, by this point, the series had rallied against the fallacy of thinking of men as the default (Sydney), established that women need not be maternal to be considered "good", and although far from perfect, generally heads and shoulders above this one when it came to women.

Ah, that's actually 2D vs 3D thing. The Nick show can't afford to create extras because of the budget, 2K3 didn't have that problem.

Why do you think people complained about the empty streets?


Think of it this way. What reason is there for Kirby O'Neil, Snakeweed, Spiderbytez, Carlos Chiang O'Brien Gambe, Murakami, Pigeon Pete, the Purple Dragons, Bradford, Xever, and the default Kraang body to be men? There's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have been women, and yet every time they decided to make that decision, they decided to make them men. Until Ms. Campbell, the only two characters that didn't get made men were the two who absolutely could not have been made into male characters, for reasons having to do with historical precedent (although that's less important than most people suggest and is, to a degree, irrelevant) and because of their roles as love interests for the turtles.

Being love interests doesn't demean nor lessen their worth as female characters. I kinda got over that years ago.

Think of it this way: theoretically remove Don or Leo out of April or Karai's life. Would they be incomplete because they were absent? Would they be unable to live their goals because they were so dependent on them? Karai certainly isn't, and I frankly have not seen enough of April to make an assertion.

Even w/o being the Turtles' crushes... I can see April and Karai's roles in the show would still be the same. I guess the romance angle was added in to "humanize" the guys and enforce that they are teenagers. Hormones does that after all.

I'm actually looking forward where Don/April would go for both of their characters. Leo/Karai is doomed, IMHO. He's not gonna date a girl who wants to harm his family.

[The Big Bad]

Ah, that's actually 2D vs 3D thing. The Nick show can't afford to create extras because of the budget, 2K3 didn't have that problem.

Why do you think people complained about the empty streets?



Oh, I know, and I'm not blaming them for that. However, the fact that they couldn't display diversity with extras means doing so with their named characters becomes all the more important (not that it's ever not). It'd be a minor thing, except it's amplified by the more general failure.

(Don't have time to really respond to the rest right now.)

[Shredded]

OhmygoshIgettoquoteThePrincessBride! I don't think [in fact, I'm pretty darn sure] that word means what you think it means. If you'd like, I can help you with that.



Feminism is a movement that started back in the sixties and seventies with the explicit purpose of giving men and women equal rights and oppertunities in our society.

Particularly are the red socks a known feminism group whom ralied for women to have equal job oppertunities to men.

The original intend with feminism clearly was "Equality." not "Superiority." and I don't think any-one would really argue against that, that men should suffer or any-thing.

How-ever in our modern day now, fifty years after this fact, the world has become much more complicated.
Persay, feminism means. "Equality." but it's still very vague, there's no real rule books, no real laws and no-one to say. "Stop." which is why the terms has been used so loosely the last fifty years and is so easily abused.

The word itself has transformed, and is so vague now, due to the different uses over these past fity years. You can use it for any-thing and demand that people listen, cause if you don't listen. "To the feminist." you are automaticly "Sexiest."

And that's a problem since that is keeping us from having actual two-sided discussions, using the word. "Feminism." is kind of stopping people from argue against it.

And I don't really see why I should have to call myself being part of any group to speak about how I want more interesting female characters.

I am not speaking for a group, I don't want to speak for a group.
I am speaking for myself, as the twenty-three year old woman that I am, whom was not around at the time "Feminism." were actually a neccesity to make a point.

Now, the movements in the western culture has out-lived its own usefullness (or at least it should have.) and we must be logical individuals, speaking for our here and now present needs. As times has changed vastly since the seventies, and hopefully will continue changing.

And of cause when we bring the word into entertainment media it's just going to be even more convoluted as the word wasn't created for entertainment media, but for the job marked and reguluar society.
When-ever some-one brings the word. "Feminism." when talking entertainment media, they are not talking about actual feminism, they are talking about their own opinions on the topic, just using some word that sounds fancy and you can't argue with.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Oh, I know, and I'm not blaming them for that. However, the fact that they couldn't display diversity with extras means doing so with their named characters becomes all the more important (not that it's ever not). It'd be a minor thing, except it's amplified by the more general failure.

(Don't have time to really respond to the rest right now.)

You mean how the Utroms had female models vs Kraang's all male ones?

Again, animation limitations. It's cheaper for Nick to use one model. Same can be said with the extras (which is probably why the fish vendor/Mitten's owner, that cop who looks like Chris with altered mustache, is painfully reused, because apparently the neighborhood the Turtles in are pretty small). The recent episodes tried to fix that though.

Anyways I'd appreciate it if the complaints about random extras would put out of the table, since it's been already explained why. If we have to compare female characters between previous TMNT shows, use the recurring ones in the first season.

Lack of female mutants IS a bummer in light of OC Snakeweed and Spiderbytez, but hey, I'm willing to wait for that.

[Shredded]

You mean how the Utroms had female models vs Kraang's all male ones?

Again, animation limitations. It's cheaper for Nick to use one model. Same can be said with the extras (which is probably why the fish vendor/Mitten's owner, that cop who looks like Chris with altered mustache, is painfully reused, because apparently the neighborhood the Turtles in are pretty small).

The recent episodes tried to fix that though.

Lack of female mutants IS a bummer in light of OC Snakeweed and Spiderbytez, but hey, I'm willing to wait for that.

Wouldn't it be awesome if a woman obsessed by her looks and her image (perhaps a beauty queen?)
Turned into a big ugly mutant, and was the next pop up monster, whom just hated the turtles for taking every-thing away from her.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I want a Tempestra/Viral character make a comeback actually.

[Shredded]

I want a Tempestra/Viral character make a comeback actually.

A villain whom magically escaped from a video game in the new nick show that the turtles has to hunt down???

okay.. admittedly that concept sounds awesome!

Though, I don't really see that happening as this show doesn't really do filler episodes any-more.
Yeah they did in the beginning, but I can even tell you why, I was at the London Exspo con panel with the show creators last May, and what they very specifically said, I remember this, was some-thing like.

"In the beginning we tried to make it so it should be a couple of stand-alone episodes, then a episode that changes status quo, then a couple of filler with new status quo, and then changing it again with a new episode. But we eventually found out it actually didn't work for us, so it will be more story arching where every single episode comes together."

And you know, as cool as a renegade video game villain sounds.. in this univers that sonds more like a filler episode than a part of a story arch. unfortunately, does sound cool though.

Though, what would be even cooler would having her being some kind of an insane commando instead of tempress, like the Mayor in Wreck it Ralp! I loved her.

[Donnie]

Nick should do something with Tempestra. That would be awesome.

[plastroncafe]

Feminism is a movement that started back in the sixties and seventies with the explicit purpose of giving men and women equal rights and oppertunities in our society.

Particularly are the red socks a known feminism group whom ralied for women to have equal job oppertunities to men.

The original intend with feminism clearly was "Equality." not "Superiority." and I don't think any-one would really argue against that, that men should suffer or any-thing.

How-ever in our modern day now, fifty years after this fact, the world has become much more complicated.
Persay, feminism means. "Equality." but it's still very vague, there's no real rule books, no real laws and no-one to say. "Stop." which is why the terms has been used so loosely the last fifty years and is so easily abused.

The word itself has transformed, and is so vague now, due to the different uses over these past fity years. You can use it for any-thing and demand that people listen, cause if you don't listen. "To the feminist." you are automaticly "Sexiest."

And that's a problem since that is keeping us from having actual two-sided discussions, using the word. "Feminism." is kind of stopping people from argue against it.

And I don't really see why I should have to call myself being part of any group to speak about how I want more interesting female characters.

I am not speaking for a group, I don't want to speak for a group.
I am speaking for myself, as the twenty-three year old woman that I am, whom was not around at the time "Feminism." were actually a neccesity to make a point.

Now, the movements in the western culture has out-lived its own usefullness (or at least it should have.) and we must be logical individuals, speaking for our here and now present needs. As times has changed vastly since the seventies, and hopefully will continue changing.

And of cause when we bring the word into entertainment media it's just going to be even more convoluted as the word wasn't created for entertainment media, but for the job marked and reguluar society.
When-ever some-one brings the word. "Feminism." when talking entertainment media, they are not talking about actual feminism, they are talking about their own opinions on the topic, just using some word that sounds fancy and you can't argue with.

Very little of the above is accurate.
Try these instead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_feminism
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/where-to-start/

Wouldn't it be awesome if a woman obsessed by her looks and her image (perhaps a beauty queen?)
Turned into a big ugly mutant, and was the next pop up monster, whom just hated the turtles for taking every-thing away from her.

Not really, no.

Also problematic is the dichotomy of the two female characters we do have. April and Karai fall into the classic female tropes of Madonna/Whore. One is good, sweetness, and light. The other bad, sarcastic, flirty, and of course in need of rescuing from a white knight.

Again, the show is still quite new and just trying to find its feet. My hopes is that these tired tropes will be subverted into something fantastic. Though, I can't for the life of me wonder why it is that we've never even seen April's Aunt once. Maybe next season.

[Shredded]

Very little of the above is accurate.
Try these instead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_feminism
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/where-to-start/

Cause every-thing you read on the enternet is true right?

Look, I got my information from Danish school books, the term "feminism." is not only used differently from media to media, but also nation to nation and culture to culture! my social-liberalistic culture is way different from your liberalistic culture, so different that we cannot even begin to wrap our heads around it.

Also, the very first thing that wikiepedia article says is this.

Depending on time, culture and country, feminists around the world have sometimes had different causes and goals. Most western feminist historians assert that all movements that work to obtain women's rights should be considered feminist movements, even when they did not (or do not) apply the term to themselves.

Which is what I said, just formulated differently.

Also.. that most feministic historians thinks that all things that works to give women equal rights, even if the movements themselves doesn't want to be associated with feminism... that's kind of out there.

"I want to believe in the bible without being associated with the christian church."
NO! Can't! ... why? it's weird to me.

And the second link you gave me doesn't even lead to any description of what a supposed feminist is!
And it's a "Word-blog." page, owned by a private person, kind of like a Blog-spot, it could be who-ever who wrote that, not necesarily a historian nor activist.

Feminism is a very vague word, and that's the problem. It doesn't mean any-thing specific.

Other than.. some-thing about women and equal rights.

And Feminism DID play a large role back in time, where there really were rallies, groups and so on, it's much different today and doesn't even apply the same way.
Back then, it was a revolution! now we are dealing with the after-effects.

[Bry]

Casey should not be anything but white and male.

Mind explaining why?

[Dirty Blond]

Cause every-thing you read on the enternet is true right?

Look, I got my information from Danish school books, the term "feminism." is not only used differently from media to media, but also nation to nation and culture to culture! my social-liberalistic culture is way different from your liberalistic culture, so different that we cannot even begin to wrap our heads around it.

Also, the very first thing that wikiepedia article says is this.



Which is what I said, just formulated differently.

Also.. that most feministic historians thinks that all things that works to give women equal rights, even if the movements themselves doesn't want to be associated with feminism... that's kind of out there.

"I want to believe in the bible without being associated with the christian church."
NO! Can't! ... why? it's weird to me.

And the second link you gave me doesn't even lead to any description of what a supposed feminist is!
And it's a "Word-blog." page, owned by a private person, kind of like a Blog-spot, it could be who-ever who wrote that, not necesarily a historian nor activist.

Feminism is a very vague word, and that's the problem. It doesn't mean any-thing specific.

Other than.. some-thing about women and equal rights.

And Feminism DID play a large role back in time, where there really were rallies, groups and so on, it's much different today and doesn't even apply the same way.
Back then, it was a revolution! now we are dealing with the after-effects.

It's all identity politics. Feminism, Zionism, La Raza and on and on and on. It's pure sophistry used to divide us as individuals.

[Hannah]

It's all identity politics. Feminism, Zionism, La Raza and on and on and on. It's pure sophistry used to divide us as individuals.
Your stupidity is astounding. You've already made your opinion known. Stop wasting everyone's time by repeating yourself.

[Shredded]

Your stupidity is astounding. You've already made your opinion known. Stop wasting everyone's time by repeating yourself.

I don't know, I thought he had a point.

And.. calling other people stupid is not really a nice thing to do. If you can't make up actual arguments for actual debate.
You don't really make yourself look that smart.

[plastroncafe]

Yes, but you also believe that men and women are completely equal in culture and law and thus the need for feminism is at an end.

So...there's that.

Repeatedly attempting to derail a discussion is not the same thing as actively participating in it.

And to get things back on track:
I hesitate to speculate on whether or not Leonardo will realize he can't save Karai.

[Dirty Blond]

I'm a Stupid-American. I know my rights!

[Keroscene]

Torn between wanting to participate, since TMNT has traditionally not been good at female characters and between wanting to avoid the kind of overwrought conversations you see in other fandoms on tumblr and such... you know the kind I mean, the kind which end in bloody acrimony because one side gets needlessly defensive and the other kind gets really nitpicky/starts slinging accusations around. It's not inevitable that every argument about sexism has to end that way, but nearly every argument about sexism within fandoms seems to end that way.

I don't think the current show is particularly sexist (i.e. it's as sexist as everything else is). I do think it's interesting that that there's a perception that this is primarily still a boy's thing and yet fandom does not back that up at all. Oh and if you look back at the old toon and some of the older comics, there's some dreadful sexist crap in there. Don't get me started on Pimiko's costume in Image TMNT or April's fainting or Raph's "ha! women!" comments in that old toon. And Irma was just.... wow.

[CyberCubed]

Wasn't Irma am advocate for women's rights? She also rarely played the role of the fool like Vernon did.

[Shredded]

Wasn't Irma am advocate for women's rights? She also rarely played the role of the fool like Vernon did.

I think what is being hinted towards is Irmas obsession about men, and how she litterately zones out when-ever the possibility of a man coming, enters the picture.


Of cause we can go into a whole other debate of if a woman shouldn't be allowed to be like that? what is wrong with that?

I mean, Raj in Big Bang theory can't talk to women unless he is drunk, but no one lifts an eye-brow about that, so why can't Irma dream about men?

But again, it sends a signal that Irma needs a man in her life to feel full-fillment, she isn't "independet."

it's all very convoluted that way.

[demonsweat]

Shredded, I thought your write-up on what feminism is and how it means different things to different people was spot-on. I'm behind you on that.

Welp, I've already given my opinion enough here (too much, I'd say) and have nothing more to add so I'm out. Plus I'm out of turtle pics.

Have fun you crazy kids. :D

[Keroscene]

I think what is being hinted towards is Irmas obsession about men, and how she litterately zones out when-ever the possibility of a man coming, enters the picture.

There's that, but there's more besides. She's incompetent in her job, always getting yelled at by her boss, she appears to have no life of her own beyond thinking about men and living vicariously through April, she faints at least once in the face of a fairly generic amount of terror.

And none of these things would automatically make her a sexist character, except for the fact that she's depicted as being like this because she's a plain, ditzy, clumsy woman. Because she's a woman and she's not pretty, she's only ever there as comic relief.

Also, it's not so much the fact that Irma wants a man that makes her lame, so much as the fact it's the focus of her entire life. She barely talks about anything except weddings and marriages and getting a husband. It's not about finding someone who makes her happy, it's about being married and having a husband because that's what a woman is supposed to do. She wants to be married for the sake of being married. I honestly don't think a character like that would be allowed in a kids cartoon nowadays.

[CyberCubed]

Are you being serious? Irma was just one of those hopeless romantics who wanted someone to sweep her off her feet. She knows she's not exactly pretty but she's not hideous either, she's just average.

And Burne yelled at everyone including Vernon, so it wasn't just Irma or April.

[plastroncafe]

Irma also suffers from the fact that she's one of a very limited number of female characters, so her tired female trope'ness is only amplified.

Ty Lee from Nickelodeon's Avatar: The Last Airbender was boy crazy too, and no where near played out as Irma. Of course that main cast had three strong female protagonists as well as three strong female antagonists.

[Shredded]

Also, it seemed like Irma was less afraid of Danger than Verne.

There was several jokes about Verne being to big a chicken to do any-thing, and Irma ends up having to do it for him.

She is a klutz yeah, and a hopeless romantic, and not a sex god.. hm, I don't mind more female characters like that. It would be nice with some-thing like that to balance out all the women whom quite frankly are over-skilled in every-thing.

And we don't know if she doesn't have a life beyond the news channel and the turtles, she only appears when she has some-thing to do with the story. Exactly because she is not a main character, she's a guest star.

[Shredded]

Yes, but you also believe that men and women are completely equal in culture and law and thus the need for feminism is at an end.

So...there's that.

Repeatedly attempting to derail a discussion is not the same thing as actively participating in it.


No, I just think that the word. "Feminism." has now mutated so much that no one knows preciesly what it is, all views it different and thus it's impossible to use in arguments.
It's to easy to miss-use, is being miss-used and gives people excuses to go on holy crusades that actually work more against women then for them.

I believe I shouldn't have to call myself any feminist to argument for equal rights and more interesting female characters. I call it common sense.


Yes I think we should talk about it, and fight for some things, but I think we should do so without calling it "Feminism." because feminsim is a word that is mutated, convoluted and miss-used.

If you can't make an argument for more women, without calling it "feminism." re-write the argument, call it.
"There should be more women in this show! cause girls watches this show tw, enjoys this stuff, and they make out 57 percent of the population."
It doesn't need to be harder than that.

Discuss it, but don't call it. "Feministic" ideals.. call them "Ideals a society based on common sense should have."

[Keroscene]

Are you being serious? Irma was just one of those hopeless romantics who wanted someone to sweep her off her feet.

Have you watched the show recently? Because you're talking as if you're just remembering some stuff you saw a decade ago and you've romanticized it in your head.

This is who Irma was:

"Return of the Shredder" - Irma chips her nail and has no nail polish. Describes this as an "emergency" and isn't joking.
"Case of the Killer Pizzas" - Sees a monster. Faints. (incidentally, April runs off and leaves her in the sewers, which shows what a great role model she is)
"New York's Shiniest" - Goes on a date with a malfunctioning police robot. That's not a hopeless romantic, that's a desperate woman.
"The Catwoman From Channel 6" - April mentions the name "Splinter" and Irma automatically wants to meet him to see if he's an eligible bachelor.
"Return of the Technodrome" - Irma comments that the Turtles are the most exciting thing in her life. She has met them about once at this stage.
"Attack of the 50ft Irma" - Dieting to attract a man, despite not having an ounce of fat on her. Refuses to eat a pill which will save her life unless she can eat it with ice cream. Oh and the only attendees at her birthday party are April and the Turtles (I think this is like their third meeting).
"The Old Switcheroo" - Irma thinks that "men are beasts," which doesn't sound to me like the attitude of a hopeless romantic.
"The Ninja Sword from Nowhere" - Irma tries to chat up a guy on the other end of the phone who calls the wrong number and gets through to Channel 6 by accident.
"Four Musketurtles" - Attempts to operate a news camera and ends up pointing it the wrong way. Is actually flattered when Shredder kidnaps her.
"Invasion of the Turtle Snatchers" - Gets excited when Donatello tells her he "needs" her (for a favour) despite the fact he is a) not human b) jailbait.
"Green with Jealousy" - Tries chatting up a bunch of random sailors at the docks. Receives gifts from mystery admirers and buys a wedding dress before she's even met any of them.
"Super Bebop and Mighty Rocksteady" - Gets zombified. First thing she wants to know when she wakes up is "where did we go and did we meet any cute guys?"
"The Turtle Terminator" - Lusts after vain and arrogant Channel 6 anchorman. Chases after him when he actually runs screaming from her.

And that's just two seasons. None of this is "romantic." It's desperate, sad and quite insulting actually that there are only two women in the show and one of them behaves like that. There's nothing that indicates that Irma wants a relationship because she wants to be happy, it's all about weddings and marriages. She's so desperate she'll date a goddamn ROBOT.

Also, as you can see, attempting to school me on the 87 cartoon is not a good idea.

[plastroncafe]

No, I just think that the word. "Feminism." has now mutated so much that no one knows preciesly what it is, all views it different and thus it's impossible to use in arguments.
It's to easy to miss-use, is being miss-used and gives people excuses to go on holy crusades that actually work more against women then for them.

I believe I shouldn't have to call myself any feminist to argument for equal rights and more interesting female characters. I call it common sense.


Yes I think we should talk about it, and fight for some things, but I think we should do so without calling it "Feminism." because feminsim is a word that is mutated, convoluted and miss-used.

If you can't make an argument for more women, without calling it "feminism." re-write the argument, call it.
"There should be more women in this show! cause girls watches this show tw, enjoys this stuff, and they make out 57 percent of the population."
It doesn't need to be harder than that.

Discuss it, but don't call it. "Feministic" ideals.. call them "Ideals a society based on common sense should have."

I can see being against the use of a word because its meaning isn't well defined. No one wants to read something heavily laden with jargon. That's fine.

But when a term has been defined in the course of a discussion, then I see no reason what so ever to avoid using a word. You may think the word feminism is convoluted, but I do not.

Feminism is the radical notion that women are equal, and should be treated as such. And when I use it that's what I mean. I will not be cowed from using a word with eight letters in favor of a phrase that has upwards of thirty. I'm sorry, that's just not going to happen.

Your issue with semantics is not my problem.

[Keroscene]

Yes I think we should talk about it, and fight for some things, but I think we should do so without calling it "Feminism." because feminsim is a word that is mutated, convoluted and miss-used.

I used to think that. Not because I had anything against feminism, but because feminism has gotten such a bad reputation and many people do not actually understand what it is. This includes both men and women. I've heard women say things like "I think men and women should get paid the same, but I'm not some kind of crazy feminist!" Which is ridiculous - if you think men and women should be treated equally, that's all feminism is. Any other idea of what feminism entails is down to misunderstanding.

But if you changed the term from "feminism" to something else, the new term would get slandered too. Increasingly, I think it's more important to tell people what feminism means rather than letting them keep spreading misconceptions. Because at its core feminist discussion is about things that are important to women and dismissing the concept means dismissing the importance of those things.

I agree that some people use the name feminism to talk about a load of rubbish. They present something as a feminist issue when it isn't. If I see one more person calling it "feminist" when they argue that they don't like a TV show character because she is "TOO interesting" and therefore "not relatable" then I'm gonna lose it. Problem is, we don't really learn much about feminism in school, so teenagers get some weird idea about what feminism is on tumblr and when there's something they don't know how to articulate their position on, they'll try to discuss it in terms of feminism.

And I'm not really trying to shut people out of the argument, but some people try to make out that they know a lot more than they do and that's kind of dangerous (e.g. making out you're some kind of academic with specialist knowledge when all you've done is sixth form politics or internet reading). Some people haven't reached the stage yet where you think "I know enough to know that I don't know all that much." But this is partially the nature of arguing about things on the internet - people are generally not that keen to say useful things like "I'm no expert, but the way I see it..." There's a tendency to phrase things in a "THESE ARE THE FACTS" kinda way. Which is understandable, because everyone likes to feel self-righteous every now and then.

[Powder]

Nick should do something with Tempestra. That would be awesome.

Ya know, I was never that huge on her, but I could totally see her working well in the new universe... She's got my vote!

[Avatar Yuffie]

There's that, but there's more besides. She's incompetent in her job, always getting yelled at by her boss, she appears to have no life of her own beyond thinking about men and living vicariously through April, she faints at least once in the face of a fairly generic amount of terror.

And none of these things would automatically make her a sexist character, except for the fact that she's depicted as being like this because she's a plain, ditzy, clumsy woman. Because she's a woman and she's not pretty, she's only ever there as comic relief.

Also, it's not so much the fact that Irma wants a man that makes her lame, so much as the fact it's the focus of her entire life. She barely talks about anything except weddings and marriages and getting a husband. It's not about finding someone who makes her happy, it's about being married and having a husband because that's what a woman is supposed to do. She wants to be married for the sake of being married. I honestly don't think a character like that would be allowed in a kids cartoon nowadays.

I remember Irma went out and shoot the bad guys with her laser rifle.

Anyways, she's fun, a foil of sorts with April's married to the job mindset and her interactions with Don never fails to make me laugh, but yeah, she is problematic.

[Donatello19]

Little girls don't care about whether or not there are main female characters. Just because the TMNT are boys means they won't appeal to female audiences? There are TONS of TMNT fan girls out there, just check tumblr and you'll see what I mean. This is like saying Mickey Mouse, Elmo or Spongebob wouldn't appeal to girls because they're boys.

[Cure]

Little girls don't care about whether or not there are main female characters. Just because the TMNT are boys means they won't appeal to female audiences? There are TONS of TMNT fan girls out there, just check tumblr and you'll see what I mean. This is like saying Mickey Mouse, Elmo or Spongebob wouldn't appeal to girls because they're boys.

This guy right here. He knows.

[The Stryker]

Little girls don't care about whether or not there are main female characters. Just because the TMNT are boys means they won't appeal to female audiences? There are TONS of TMNT fan girls out there, just check tumblr and you'll see what I mean. This is like saying Mickey Mouse, Elmo or Spongebob wouldn't appeal to girls because they're boys.

My niece's favorite character in everything is Batman. She likes characters for the characters or their designs not because they "look like her".

[Avatar Yuffie]

Little girls don't care about whether or not there are main female characters. Just because the TMNT are boys means they won't appeal to female audiences? There are TONS of TMNT fan girls out there, just check tumblr and you'll see what I mean. This is like saying Mickey Mouse, Elmo or Spongebob wouldn't appeal to girls because they're boys.

Yeah, I'm sure they do. Heck I like the Turtles but I never latched on April/Irma/Oyuki/Ninjara back then as a kid on the reason they are women.

However, the complaints that there are only two recurring female characters is valid. And there is fan complaining in tumblr how out of focus/lack of character development towards April (which I try to be patient to both the show and the fandom). In 1987 it's understandable... the new ones, not.

[Mona_Lisa]

Maybe they're scared to introduce female characters because of the fans' reactions to Venus. IMO, they should bring back Mona Lisa.

I love you mad, lol:P
I don't mind that the show has mostly male characters. The females in the show so far are very well written. I would love to see mona lisa come back. I'd love to see this raph with a crush. I wounder if he'd be a good "boyfriend", or find it hard to express his feelings?

[Pterobat]

Like I said in a similar thread about this--it's not a question of whether or not you can like a character of the opposite gender. It's something bigger to discuss how groups are represented in media, and it doesn't matter what one person's individual tastes are.

Also, dear god do I hate Irma. When I was re-watching the old show, I thought I would like her, by finding some fellow geeky-girl solidarity (*fistbump*), but it turned out she was more like an animated Cathy (aack!)

Even her man-hungry ways just seem to be out of desperation, rather than any kind of personal liberation.

My problem with Irma is that all her faults never seem to be treated as individual character flaws, but just an annoying stereotype. She's rarely called out or actually suffers for her flaws, so she's not particularly funny, either.

And yeah, because there are less female characters in the OT, Irma's faults stick out all the more.

Also, when it comes to the word "feminism", a made-up word that covers the same basic ideas just doesn't cut it. Every movement has problems, but we don't have to throw out the name for something useful and valid with a strong history to call ourselves..."equalists" or "egalitarians", or something.

Let the haters hate.

When people ask for better representation, nobody is asking for female characters without flaws--in fact, that's the opposite of equality.

[plastroncafe]

Little girls don't care about whether or not there are main female characters. Just because the TMNT are boys means they won't appeal to female audiences? There are TONS of TMNT fan girls out there, just check tumblr and you'll see what I mean. This is like saying Mickey Mouse, Elmo or Spongebob wouldn't appeal to girls because they're boys.

Little girls don't have much of a choice in the matter, due to the fact that female characters are underrepresented. It's better now than it was say, when the old toon started, but there's still a long way to go.

[Donatello19]

female characters are underrepresented

http://kidstube.com/photo/HAUDwmRxwRReg6BUwxMHeGeTN4tMtqB0.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/Minnie_Mouse.png/220px-Minnie_Mouse.pnghttp://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/15500000/the-winx-images-the-winx-club-15546027-865-709.gifhttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/-v4HZSd6yoLc/UA0e0_GGJ-I/AAAAAAAAELY/aMpAAWC1V3o/s1600/Monster+High+Primary+Characters.jpg

[Hannah]

You've done it. You've solved sexism. You proved us all wrong. This thread is no longer relevant because sexism is over.

[plastroncafe]

Underrepresented =/= no representation at all.

[CyberCubed]

The original toon had a lot of female characters when you think about it:

April
Irma
Lotus Blossom
Kala the Neutrino
Tempestra
Shreeka
Mona Lisa
April's Aunt Agatha
Dr. Goodfellow (black doctor from Season 4)
Zack's female friend from, "The Great Boldini"
Tiffiny (Burne's girlfriend)

[Avatar Yuffie]

http://kidstube.com/photo/HAUDwmRxwRReg6BUwxMHeGeTN4tMtqB0.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/Minnie_Mouse.png/220px-Minnie_Mouse.pnghttp://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/15500000/the-winx-images-the-winx-club-15546027-865-709.gifhttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/-v4HZSd6yoLc/UA0e0_GGJ-I/AAAAAAAAELY/aMpAAWC1V3o/s1600/Monster+High+Primary+Characters.jpg

Huh, must have missed them in 2K3.

[Dirty Blond]

Sexism will truly be over when we treat one another as individuals, not as members of contrived groups. That requires a major paradigm shift. Until that happens, we'll just have to keep going around in circles.

Don't know about anyone else, but I'm tired of living in a matrix.

[Jester]

Can we not just enjoy media for good stories and memorable characters instead of trying to dissect some sort of deeper philosophical or sociological underpinnings?

Does EVERYTHING come back to how everyone but the straight, white, male is a disenfranchised minority?

[Candy Kappa]

Lets take our two women, April and Karai. One is coded as a good guy, and other other is, for now, coded as a bad guy. One, April, has been so far played as asexual; the other, Karai, has been portrayed as one who is aware of her sexuality and is confident about it--she flirts easily, and she has little problem expressing interest.

Now, female sexuality, despite what conservatives say, is not a bad thing. One can be a good person and still be confident, and flirty, and openly sexual. However, because this version of the TMNT has only two women in it, that message can't really be made properly. As fine as it is for April to be asexual and for Karai to be sexual, a universe in which all good women are asexual and all bad women are sexual, and which therefore conflates female sexuality with morality, is not fine.

your point would be a lot more valid if Karai wasn't a ninja, maybe if we get another female villain that isn't a ninja

[The Big Bad]

Being love interests doesn't demean nor lessen their worth as female characters. I kinda got over that years ago.
[...]

The point wasn't that there's anything wrong with them being love interest (although the way the arcs are executed is another matter); the point was that until Ms. Campbell, the only way to be a female and be character in the story was by being a love interest, which is a sexist double-standard.

You mean how the Utroms had female models vs Kraang's all male ones?

I'm actually not entirely sure what you mean. Could you elaborate?

Again, animation limitations. It's cheaper for Nick to use one model. Same can be said with the extras (which is probably why the fish vendor/Mitten's owner, that cop who looks like Chris with altered mustache, is painfully reused, because apparently the neighborhood the Turtles in are pretty small). The recent episodes tried to fix that though.

Anyways I'd appreciate it if the complaints about random extras would put out of the table, since it's been already explained why. If we have to compare female characters between previous TMNT shows, use the recurring ones in the first season.

I would, if I believed that the problem were solely about resources. I'm simply not sure that things would be better even if they'd had the resources to make as many extras as they'd wanted--they can still pull what The Dark Knight Rises did. That's just me, though, and it's not the sort of thing one can prove. In any case, I'll be glad to stop holding it against the Nick show; I will not, however, stop using it as a point in the 2k3 show's favor, which is what I was doing.


Feminism is a movement that started back in the sixties and seventies with the explicit purpose of giving men and women equal rights and oppertunities in our society.

What you are actually referring to is what is commonly known as Second-Wave Feminism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Wave_Feminism), called that because in the United States, it followed first wave feminism of the early 20th century, which was mostly centered around the issue of female suffrage.

However, this would not mean that feminism did not exist until these moments--the idea that women and men should be treated equally has always existed--it's just that these are the moments when feminists were organized and influential to such a degree that they managed to shift paradigms in a way that could be considered seismic.


"To the feminist." you are automaticly "Sexiest."

Hilarious typo aside, this is actually somewhat accurate, but not quite, and not in the way you think. It'd be more accurate to say that they believe that...

a) Society has been set up in a way designed to discriminate against and audit women when it comes to almost every aspect of their lives--their dress, their eating habits, their sexuality, the way they walk, sit, talk, heck, even the way they breathe (http://ollieramblings.tumblr.com/post/42773496996/this-is-how-thoroughly-we-women-have-been).

b) People will, unless instructed otherwise, absorb those tropes and narratives, because that's what they have been taught to do by everything around them.

c) They will repeat those tropes and narratives, often without malice, because they don't understand how they can be problematic.

So yes, almost anything and everything is sexist, insofar almost everything and anything will eventually err and indulge in sexist behavior or promote sexist tropes, from the most ardent misogynist to the most knowledgeable feminist (although the frequency with which they do so, of course, varies). This doesn't mean that everyone who does it being malicious or is a bad person; however, it also doesn't mean that it's not hurtful when it happens, or that it doesn't need to be called out. This is what feminists do.

And of cause when we bring the word into entertainment media it's just going to be even more convoluted as the word wasn't created for entertainment media, but for the job marked and reguluar society.

When-ever some-one brings the word. "Feminism." when talking entertainment media, they are not talking about actual feminism, they are talking about their own opinions on the topic, just using some word that sounds fancy and you can't argue with.

Now this is just wrong. Entertainment and media are of vital importance to feminism. Not only does it involve employment--they don't work for free, you know--but fiction and he media also serves as a mirror, telling us how society (or at least a significant portion of it) sees itself. Not only that, it is influential: for example, the landscape for LGBT / QUILTBAG people in America has changed a lot in the last two decades, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that positive images of gay people began appearing in the media, allowing people to see that hey, they're people. Closer to home, like I said in another thread, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation if the original Mirage book had had gender parity.

I don't think the current show is particularly sexist (i.e. it's as sexist as everything else is).

I'm going to disagree. While the show has improved to a degree since its debut, and may improve more still, there have been too many cases of what I'd consider sexism fail in too little time. The way April is handled in the pilot identifying her as the love interest and nothing else. The execution of Don's crush on April, and the way the show remains silent on how creepy his behavior can get--the flowchart, in particular, is a horrible bit of business, once you think about it, since its predicated on the idea of avoiding a "no" at all costs. The still very much skewed gender ratios. It could be worse, but on the whole it could also be a whole lot better.


Little girls don't care about whether or not there are main female characters. Just because the TMNT are boys means they won't appeal to female audiences? There are TONS of TMNT fan girls out there, just check tumblr and you'll see what I mean. This is like saying Mickey Mouse, Elmo or Spongebob wouldn't appeal to girls because they're boys.

a) Girls are not a monolith. Some little girls may not care, but not all of them. (The same is true for the opposite argument) b) The argument isn't that they can't enjoy show starring boys--if anything, society wants you to believe the opposite is true--but that it is also important for there to be good shows starring girls, and that the market isn't properly meeting that need.


The original toon had a lot of female characters when you think about it:

April
Irma
Lotus Blossom
Kala the Neutrino
Tempestra
Shreeka
Mona Lisa
April's Aunt Agatha
Dr. Goodfellow (black doctor from Season 4)
Zack's female friend from, "The Great Boldini"
Tiffiny (Burne's girlfriend)

...
...
...

I'm going to be over there.


your point would be a lot more valid if Karai wasn't a ninja, maybe if we get another female villain that isn't a ninja

I'm not not sure how that's relevant to my point at all. Could you elaborate?

[Shredded]

What you are actually referring to is what is commonly known as Second-Wave Feminism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Wave_Feminism), called that because in the United States, it followed first wave feminism of the early 20th century, which was mostly centered around the issue of female suffrage.



That's when the word was invented and became common use!

If you want to talk about women in genneral uprising towards men, and call ALL of it feminism, you can go as far back as the dyng-dynasti and there are stories.

Dude, we have recorded human history on this planet dating as far as four thousand years back, spreading across seven different continents, of cause there has been examples of womens up-rising through history.
Amazons, Valkyries ext, the ideas came from some-where.

Feminism as a word is vague it barely means any-thing, and if you can't argue for womens rights, and that there should be better female characters without using the word, you aren't doing it good enough.

Sexism will truly be over when we treat one another as individuals, not as members of contrived groups. That requires a major paradigm shift. Until that happens, we'll just have to keep going around in circles.

Don't know about anyone else, but I'm tired of living in a matrix.

I agree with this.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I'm actually not entirely sure what you mean. Could you elaborate?

IIRC you were complaining about the extras.

We already know why random people are out... so that leaves the kraang and the Foot ninjas. Both groups are 100% guys. However, the Utroms actually bothered to put on female disguises, whereas the Kraang do not.

Again, I'll blame the expensive 3D models.

BTW do the 2K3 had female ninjas who're not Karai? I don't remember.


The point wasn't that there's anything wrong with them being love interest (although the way the arcs are executed is another matter); the point was that until Ms. Campbell, the only way to be a female and be character in the story was by being a love interest, which is a sexist double-standard.

I really don't consider Karai as "just a love interest" in that show, so I don't have that problem. And really, because Leo has a crush on her, we must immediately reject Karai's other characteristics as an enemy and a rival?

I need to see more of April if that concern is justifiable. The good thing about being an old franchise is that we all know April wasn't created to be someone's girlfriend.

[ToTheNines]

BTW do the 2K3 had female ninjas who're not Karai? I don't remember.

Yeah. Joi, Chikara, the girl in Feudal Japan with the giant double sword.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Yeah. Joi, Chikara, the girl in Feudal Japan with the giant double sword.

Joi's a foot ninja?

[ToTheNines]

My bad, I didn't know you meant Foot specifically.

Other than a few obscure Mirage instances, Foot ninja are always portrayed as male.

[plastroncafe]

Can we not just enjoy media for good stories and memorable characters instead of trying to dissect some sort of deeper philosophical or sociological underpinnings?

Does EVERYTHING come back to how everyone but the straight, white, male is a disenfranchised minority?

Sure, if you're willing to settle for good stories. Me personally? I'm shooting for great ones.

If you're not interesting in dissecting the media you're soaking in, you might be better served to avoid threads like this one. Because it seems to me you're a little too unhappy about the fact that your status quo is being questioned.




Dude, we have recorded human history on this planet dating as far as four thousand years back, spreading across seven different continents, of cause there has been examples of womens up-rising through history.
Amazons, Valkyries ext, the ideas came from some-where.


You do realize Amazons and Valkyries are fictional, right?
Read too quickly before posting.

Yes, let's talk about the mythos of Amazons and Valkyries, and how they're male fantasies.
The Amazons are there to be tamed by men. The Valkyries are there to herald the brave to heaven.

[Candy Kappa]

The Foot are depicted as males as far as we know, with them wearing masks and semi loose fitting clothes. Who's to say there are no female Ninja minions among the anonymous ranks of the Foot. In the Nick show, they haven't even talked, can't remember them even grunt. What comes especially in mind is when the Foot ninja are plucked one by one in the sewer when Bradford and Xever with minions is down the sewer after the turtles.

And the Kraang droids, well. Bugger, they are all in male skin suits. But adding an extra skin suit, would that ruin the joke that they all look the same? I guess there could be a female MIB skin suit as well, but why, if they are meant to look all alike, then there is no reason in that department. Maybe we'll see some new skin suits after the season end, it seems like the Kraang is fairly novice about humans.

I'm not not sure how that's relevant to my point at all. Could you elaborate?

Ninja, masters of deceit, manipulation and espionage.

Female ninja, Kunoichi was especially trained to take advantage of others of opposite sex. Mochizuki Chiyome did so with her all-girl Shinobi school (If Mochizuki actually existed, she might be a fabrication from the Edo period) Where she trained her Kunoichi to blend in as geisha, nun and prostitutes to more easily do espionage or assassination jobs.

Karai clearly don't have any romantic interest (as of yet) in Leonardo, she is putting him off-guard and manipulates him. She is a ninja. If the trend continues with female villains to use sexual tension to their gain, then I can see the sexist notion; good girls are asexual and bad girls are sexual.

She might be a poor choice for first female villain with such a short female character list. But I don't see any malicious undertones in it. Except making karai the underling of Shredder, again. But that I have expressed before, girls are not allowed to rule over Shredder.

[Keroscene]

I'm going to disagree. While the show has improved to a degree since its debut, and may improve more still, there have been too many cases of what I'd consider sexism fail in too little time. The way April is handled in the pilot identifying her as the love interest and nothing else. The execution of Don's crush on April, and the way the show remains silent on how creepy his behavior can get--the flowchart, in particular, is a horrible bit of business, once you think about it, since its predicated on the idea of avoiding a "no" at all costs. The still very much skewed gender ratios. It could be worse, but on the whole it could also be a whole lot better.

I think April's always been problematic. To me, she's always struck me as someone who is just... there. I find the Nick version of her preferable to other versions, but even so I get the feeling she is there simply because there has always been an April O'Neil in TMNT and because fans expect her to be there. Her main function in most iterations of TMNT has been to sit and have the Turtles origin story explained to her and then she does have a tendency to either become defined by her relationship to Casey or to slip into the background after that.

The gender ratios, yes, that's messed up. I didn't like the idea of Venus because she seemed tokenistic (her entire identity was: she's the female turtle) but I don't see why you can't have more female supporting characters and villains.

As for Don's crush, I'm not so convinced on that. You might well be the same person I discussed this with on Tumblr so I won't go into all of that. But I think the flowchart is more a result of "too insecure/shy to go into a situation without plans and backups and such" than it is "won't take no for an answer." I don't think it's a "nice guy" thing, I think it's a "teenage boy doesn't know how to behave like a normal person" thing.

[plastroncafe]

I've mentioned it other places, but April is at her best when she's the "Zeppo", a reference to a Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode dedicated to the one non-occult character on the show.

The Mirage volume 1 comic "True Stories" is hands down one of the best books of the run, and it's all from April's point of view. Where she HAS a point of view.

Of course, then in volume 4 her Zeppo status is stripped from her in order to manufacture a completely unnecessary existential crisis.

In short: April has always been a wet hot mess of a character, and I can only assume this is the case because the people doing the writing have no idea how to write female characters.

[Bry]

Does EVERYTHING come back to how everyone but the straight, white, male is a disenfranchised minority?

As long as most people who aren't straight white males are disenfranchised minorities, then yeah, pretty much.

There's no reason the conversation has to be hostile, though.

[plastroncafe]

Yes, there most certainly is a reason why it has to be hostile.
Because the people being disenfranchised are angry about it, and we shouldn't have to be polite in order to be heard.

[Bry]

Yes, there most certainly is a reason why it has to be hostile.
Because the people being disenfranchised are angry about it, and we shouldn't have to be polite in order to be heard.

Well, okay - fair enough. I mostly meant it from the other perspective, honestly. Asking questions and analyzing what we consume and absorb is always a good thing, and it's troubling to see some people get so defensive and hostile at the status quo being questioned.

That said, I think civility is the best way to have a conversation and to educate. Unless the other side gets hostile, in which case, go nuts. ;)

[BabyTurtles]

I'm a little late like about ...3 pages late XD........

I saw people complaining about the girl being a love interest only, but when a girl is a main character the guy is the love interest....so do we just not want love in a show period or what? :ohwell:

[Hannah]

I'm a little late like about ...3 pages late XD........

I saw people complaining about the girl being a love interest only, but when a girl is a main character the guy is the love interest....so do we just not want love in a show period or what? :ohwell:
The problem with women being love interests occurs when they are defined by the relationship.

[Bry]

Right. They have to help drive the plot in a way that doesn't solely revolve around their relationship to, or impact on, the protagonist. It's not about avoiding love interest characters entirely, but ensuring they are actually fully-developed characters in their own right, not just ciphers for the male hero.

[plastroncafe]

Female characters should add to the plot, not BE the plot.
a la Women in Refrigerators (http://lby3.com/wir/).

[BabyTurtles]

Right. They have to help drive the plot in a way that doesn't solely revolve around their relationship to, or impact on, the protagonist. It's not about avoiding love interest characters entirely, but ensuring they are actually fully-developed characters in their own right, not just ciphers for the male hero.

oh okay :3 yea then I agree, I don't mind a girl being a love interest as long as she has good development first :D

Mako from Legend of Korra was a boy victim of the love interest only thing :o

[Matches Malone]

I've been quietly following this thread since its inception and have been enjoying the (mostly) civil and intelligent discussion that's gone on here. I appreciate those here, including the initial poster, who is willing to challenge values, institutions, and belief systems, especially in TMNT fandom. We all have mothers, sisters, aunts, nieces, etc. so whether we agree with the arguments set forth here regarding Feminism, I would at least hope that we can agree that the cause of respecting women as actual people with individual thoughts and feelings that are of equal importance as the other gender is a noble one.

Having said that, while the disenfranchised have every right to be angry and hostile, I would encourage sympathy and patience, as I'm more concerned with furthering causes and understanding than anger, albeit justified. Be the bigger person; you win more people over that way. I'm in no way condemning those who are hostile, I'm just here to promote a different attitude. Plus, it helps to remember that these sexist values are absorbed by us all, largely through media unfiltered, unexplained, and unknowingly. I do not come from a background of formal study on this subject, so it's for my own benefit as well that I ask for patience and compassion in any ignorance I may display.

Many detractors get defensive because no one wants to be called a sexist. Our culture has changed enough that this term holds a heavy shame with it. However, it seems it has changed the value of this word, and not our value pertaining to the actual subject. As many have pointed out, being sexist doesn't necessarily mean you hate your mom or your sister, but you may be perpetuating something that is harmful to them. Sexism is institutionalized, meaning it is still part of our values, perhaps unknowingly, even if we're told it's not. We've all hurt someone without realizing it. Like making a joke about getting hit by a car when, unbeknownst to us, the person we're talking to just had their dad killed by a drunk driver. The thing is, we can know better because this history of sexism is not news.

Looking at TMNT and calling it sexist isn't saying it is the worst thing to come along for women, but that it is part of this institution as a whole that continues to under and misrepresent women, thus giving people the wrong idea. TMNT does not exist in a vacuum. It's just the next show that did this. Why are we talking about TMNT's sexist values? Well, why not? We're all fans and that's what we want to talk about. We don't want to look on it critically because it's not worse than the status quo, what we're used to, but if sexism is institutionalized, we have to remember that the status quo isn't very good to begin with, so there's nothing wrong with someone (Feminists) to want to do better than the status quo.

Regarding roles like love interests or sexuality, there is nothing inherently wrong with being these things. We all deal with love and sexuality. However, remember again that we have a history to look back on. Whether it's intentional or not, it's another addition to the long history of love interest or sexual female characters.

Regarding quantity, you can't say there isn't opportunity. As many pointed out, why weren't any of the other male characters made female? A female news anchor, or mutant? Why is it so disproportionate? It's not that there is an arbitrary quantity to achieve, but that this reveals a trend. Is it a coincidence that these female characters didn't seem to fit in these other roles? Well, after decades of media portrayal, I think we can safely assume it's not a coincidence. It's something we learned to think, because in real life, women have a wider ranger of roles than this, just like men.

As TMNT fans, no one wants arbitrary PC values or rules to come before story, which is what makes us fans to begin with. But keeping these things in mind will help us see the opportunities, which are there, to incorporate female and minority characters into the story in a natural, organic way. We're not here to just dwell on the past of missed opportunities, but learn from them to do better!

Sorry for the long post, but I doubt I'll have too many opportunities to comment thoughtfully in this thread, so I thought I'd make the most of it.

[CyberCubed]

Megan Fox being casted as April is far more sexist than anything in the toons. April has never been portrayed as, "amazingly hot" in any incarnation but more like a cute girl next door type.

Megan Fox is totally wrong for the role of April.

[Jester]

If you're not interesting in dissecting the media you're soaking in, you might be better served to avoid threads like this one. Because it seems to me you're a little too unhappy about the fact that your status quo is being questioned.
That's not it at all. What bugs me is people seeing phantom racism/sexism in every piece of popular media. See characters as characters. Don't get so worked up about the descriptors.

There's a difference between dissecting media, and seeing a boogie man hiding in it because it doesn't meet some sort of bizarre immeasurable quota system.

To me the screams of "SEXISM!!!" in stuff like this ring about as true as the screams of "SATANISM!!!" by those idiots like Phil Phillips and Joan Hake Robie back in the early Nineties.

[plastroncafe]

That's not it at all. What bugs me is people seeing phantom racism/sexism in every piece of popular media. See characters as characters. Don't get so worked up about the descriptors.

What bugs me are people coming into a thread specifically labelled as a feminist analysis of something only to be told that I'm getting "worked up". It's insulting at worst, and dismissive at best.

There's a difference between dissecting media, and seeing a boogie man hiding in it because it doesn't meet some sort of bizarre immeasurable quota system.

Yes, and that's why we discuss it, rather than just out of hand shooting things down.

To me the screams of "SEXISM!!!" in stuff like this ring about as true as the screams of "SATANISM!!!" by those idiots like Phil Phillips and Joan Hake Robie back in the early Nineties.

And so not only only are you dismissing the thread, but you're calling us shrill and idiotic as well.

Well played.

[Cure]

And so not only only are you dismissing the thread, but you're calling us shrill and idiotic as well.


I know I am.

[BubblyShell22]

But April isn't seen as just the love interest. She's also another part of the family and is only seen as the love interest on Don's part. April hasn't returned his feelings and seems to rebuff him either because she knows it won't work, or because she really isn't aware of his true feelings for her.

Frankly, I think it would be cool to see more females in Space Heroes. The only girl we saw there was Celestial, and she kind of got disintegrated.

[Keroscene]

Sorry for the long post, but I doubt I'll have too many opportunities to comment thoughtfully in this thread, so I thought I'd make the most of it.

This is a bloody good post.

[Keroscene]

Also, FWIW, despite the efforts of some people to challenge the very foundations of feminism and some plain nonsense (yes, little girls DO want to see women on television. Trust me), I've actually been surprised how civil this conversation has been so far. Really wasn't expecting it in this particular forum, to be honest. As a feminist, I do sometimes cringe at Tumblr posts and the like which occasionally do cross over into "shrill" territory. There's been no "check your privilege" nonsense and people seem to have kept a sense of perspective. Can't say the other side has been as well behaved, but there you go.

The thing to remember in any discussion about disenfranchised groups is that the vast majority of people fall into one of those disenfranchised groups. White, thin, middle class, non-disabled, heterosexual males within the ages of 25 to 40 are not a particularly large group of people. So talking about these things is not about blaming people. It's about saying "how did it come about, what's wrong with it and what needs to change?"

In the case of TMNT... more female characters, no bloody FAINTING, not assuming that the show's fanbase must be male and making creative decisions off the back of it and not making the little girls watching feel like they must be freaks and it's not really "for" them, like I did when I was nine years old.

[CyberCubed]

So fainting is anti-feminist now? I guess all those times Vernon fainted don't count because he's not April right?

[Keroscene]

So fainting is anti-feminist now? I guess all those times Vernon fainted don't count because he's not April right?

They don't count because he's not the primary male character in the show and there isn't any particular lack of regular male characters in the show.

And I don't seriously believe that you didn't understand that when you made the post.

[Matches Malone]

So fainting is anti-feminist now? I guess all those times Vernon fainted don't count because he's not April right?

To repeat a point in my long, and likely unread post, it's not about fainting. It's about common recurring tropes like a shrill fainting lady. Is it an established idea that men constantly lose their **** and faint? No, but it is with women, so much to the point that it is parodied, hence a lot of stuff that's in the old cartoon, which is a lot of parody. The first time a lady fainted, okay, who cares. But the millionth time in the millionth show? It's something to point out. No one's going crazy about it, just pointing it out.

[CyberCubed]

I'm sure if you saw a 5 foot tall talking rat offering you tea , you'd faint too.

[Matches Malone]

This is a bloody good post.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

[Matches Malone]

I'm sure if you saw a 5 foot tall talking rat offering you tea , you'd faint too.

I said it wasn't about fainting or the realism of said fainting... It's that we've all seen it before, and that TMNT continued this. It's a fair point, not damning it to the worst example of sexism.

[Keroscene]

I'm sure if you saw a 5 foot tall talking rat offering you tea , you'd faint too.

Like when Shredder does? And Rocksteady and Bebop? And the Rat King? Except of course they don't, because they're all tough guys. That's the whole point, nearly all the badass people in this series are guys and the women are relegated to "regular people" status.

Man, one day you're gonna wake up and realize you've spent years defending this cartoon against people who actually love it just as much as you do, but are capable of realizing that nothing is perfect and it's foolish to pretend otherwise.

[plastroncafe]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Fainting

Fainting is what used to happen to heavily corseted women in times of stress, because the boning of the corset impeded the ability of the ribcage to expand when her heart rate went up, and so she passed out due to lack of air.

It's played for laughs with Vernon, because he's a man and it's something only women are supposed to do. So it reinforces his weakness and lack of masculinity. Because you see, a man being a woman is funny, because women are weak.

So yeah...Vernon fainting is very problematic.

[CyberCubed]

Why would Rat King or Rocksteady faint? They're villains. Has nothing to do with them being male.

[Avatar Yuffie]

My bad, I didn't know you meant Foot specifically.

Other than a few obscure Mirage instances, Foot ninja are always portrayed as male.

Awww, you made me excited for nothing.

After Karai's disastrous "I'm evil cuz I'm Shredder" whimper, I was hoping for another blurred enemy female Foot ninja.

[Keroscene]

Why would Rat King or Rocksteady faint? They're villains. Has nothing to do with them being male.

It has EVERYTHING to do with them being male, because the vast majority of villains are male in this and the vast majority of women are bystanders. So the writers have made a choice that most of the women will not be villains or action types and will therefore faint occasionally or need to be rescued every 5 minutes.

Stop being so obtuse. You know full well the point I'm making. You really need to stop taking everything everybody says about this show so personally.

[BabyTurtles]

It has EVERYTHING to do with them being male, because the vast majority of villains are male in this and the vast majority of women are bystanders. So the writers have made a choice that most of the women will not be villains or action types and will therefore faint occasionally or need to be rescued every 5 minutes.

Stop being so obtuse. You know full well the point I'm making. You really need to stop taking everything everybody says about this show so personally.

Karai didn't faint.

you gotta give April some slack...I mean she was almost killed by robots! and has been running away the whole time! plus seeing 4 mutant turtles with weapons and not knowing if they are on her side.........I'd faint too XD

[CyberCubed]

It has EVERYTHING to do with them being male, because the vast majority of villains are male in this and the vast majority of women are bystanders. So the writers have made a choice that most of the women will not be villains or action types and will therefore faint occasionally or need to be rescued every 5 minutes.

Stop being so obtuse. You know full well the point I'm making. You really need to stop taking everything everybody says about this show so personally.

I love how you ignore the other female characters. Kala, Tempestra, Shreeka, Mona Lisa, April's Aunt Agatha, etc.

I don't see them fainting or begging for men to save them. Well, maybe once in Kala's case but all the Neutrinos were tied up in that scene.

[Cipher]

That's not it at all. What bugs me is people seeing phantom racism/sexism in every piece of popular media. See characters as characters. Don't get so worked up about the descriptors.
So, uh, to clarify again: It doesn't have to be intentional. It just has to reinforce stereotypes and trends, and that might be as simple as defaulting to male characters, having unrealistically few women, or seeing the continuation of subtle but problematic stereotypes. TMNT's not the worst and it does a lot of things right, but it's guilty of some of those things as well.

That is seeing the stories and characters. That's the effect they have. It's something shows do and it's important to be able to look at them on that level.

There is no ring of evil male writers wringing their hands together thinking about how marginalized girls are going to be in/by the show. But might they accidentally reinforce some of those things, or not really think about how they could find a better balance? Sure. Absolutely. You betcha.

There's a difference between dissecting media, and seeing a boogie man hiding in it because it doesn't meet some sort of bizarre immeasurable quota system.
So, what "immeasurable quota" system are we talking about? This is why things like the Bechdel test picked up steam. That looks for the absolute minimal amount of female interaction any piece of fiction could reasonably expected to have, and major shows and movies fail it all the time.

In the case of TMNT, people in this thread have been like, "Uh, there are barely two women and like twenty dudes. Let's talk about what this does." Pretty concrete. Pretty minimal expectations. Pretty open discussion from there.

To me the screams of "SEXISM!!!" in stuff like this ring about as true as the screams of "SATANISM!!!" by those idiots like Phil Phillips and Joan Hake Robie back in the early Nineties.
This is just ridiculous and you know it. You're comparing talking about the effects a piece of fiction has on viewers or the societal trends it represents (things that absolutely exist, intentionally or not) to subliminal messages intentionally encoded into a work. That's Phil Phillips-levels of crazy.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Fainting

Fainting is what used to happen to heavily corseted women in times of stress, because the boning of the corset impeded the ability of the ribcage to expand when her heart rate went up, and so she passed out due to lack of air.

It's played for laughs with Vernon, because he's a man and it's something only women are supposed to do. So it reinforces his weakness and lack of masculinity. Because you see, a man being a woman is funny, because women are weak.

So yeah...Vernon fainting is very problematic.
You know, I was almost going to quote this to say, "Well, I don't know. That might be a bit much."

But you know what? You're totally right. Because even if no kid knows that the origin of of the ladies fainting trope ties back to corsets, there is no question in my mind that when you think about someone fainting from a shock, it's a woman. It's still all over our media. So, yeah, there's also no question that the joke with Vernon, which gets through to kids as well, is, "It's funny because it's a girly thing to do."

That's the kind of subtle stuff we're talking about here. Not malicious, probably not even intentional, but not very helpful as far as moving forward. It doesn't mean girls can't have fun watching it or can't identify with the male cast, but it doesn't tell them one day they're every bit as good either.

Also, Matches Malone had a very good post IRL.

[Coola Yagami]

I noticed Keno fainted when he saw Splinter in TMNT 2 and he wasn't exactly girly.

[Matches Malone]

I noticed Keno fainted when he saw Splinter in TMNT 2 and he wasn't exactly girly.

One (dubious) example or even several does not mean the aforementioned trope suddenly no longer exists. A trend doesn't mean there are absolutely no exceptions.

[Jester]

Crud...I guess I shouldn't mention Kenshin then, either.

[Matches Malone]

At first I thought you were talking about the anime and I got really excited :(

[Jester]

Nope...TMNT III's Kenshin. Also male...also fainted.

Splinter just has that effect on people.

[Matches Malone]

True, that he does... But are you sincerely trying to use that as an argument that women fainting is not an established recurring trope, or are you simply bringing him up in jest, as your namesake would suggest?

And as Cipher pointed out, it's not like most of the time, these tropes are used intentionally by women-hating writers and they're just not consistent about it. It seems to me more like bad habits. Things they fall back on that they haven't really thought about the implications (or worse, they have).

Also, don't forget that looking at things from this perspective isn't just an excuse to bash on this show. Again, we're all fans here and the initial poster here even mentioned she's a fan of April in this show. Personally, I think she's just alright. It's true we haven't seen all that much of her. I prefer the IDW April, myself. Movie 1 April is pretty cool too.

[Jester]

True, that he does... But are you sincerely trying to use that as an argument that women fainting is not an established recurring trope, or are you simply bringing him up in jest, as your namesake would suggest?
Jest, sir. Jest.

[Candy Kappa]

I really like the faint scene in pirates of the Caribbean, not enough people knows about the whole corset & fainting.

Have anyone done a body count of the female background characters in the episodes. I only vaguely remember two distinct models, one twig and one plump.

[Keroscene]

I love how you ignore the other female characters. Kala, Tempestra, Shreeka, Mona Lisa, April's Aunt Agatha, etc.

You mean the irrelevant ones who were barely in it for a handful of episodes between them? Gee I wonder why someone would spend less time considering them than the woman who was in nearly every episode and the woman who was at one point in at least half of them.

I don't see them fainting or begging for men to save them. Well, maybe once in Kala's case but all the Neutrinos were tied up in that scene.

Yeah and it's significant that although all of them were tied up, Kala was the only one begging to be saved.

[Keroscene]

I noticed Keno fainted when he saw Splinter in TMNT 2 and he wasn't exactly girly.

Yes he was.

[Keroscene]

you gotta give April some slack...I mean she was almost killed by robots! and has been running away the whole time! plus seeing 4 mutant turtles with weapons and not knowing if they are on her side.........I'd faint too XD

The fact is, it's very rare to actually see someone faint in real life and when they do faint it's usually for health reasons, not as a result of shock. People don't tend to faint due to emotional stress unless they're in some kind of really horrific situation (torture, severe physical injury, etc).

But when someone faints on screen, it's always been shorthand for "this person's poor little brain can't handle what they're seeing." And fainting generally just doesn't work that way. People (men and women) are generally capable of accepting a lot more stress than that. You can't help feeling it's a negative comment on someone's resilience when they faint due to witnessing something shocking.

[plastroncafe]

What was your reaction when Kenshin and Keno fainted.
Did you laugh?
Why did you laugh?
What was funny about it?

My theory?
April fainted because she's a woman, and that's what women do in times of stress.
Keno fainted because watching men faint is funny, because they're supposed to be stronger than that.
Kenshin fainted because of the Rule of Three (http://www.humorpower.com/art-rulethree.html) in comedy writing.

[CyberCubed]

I thought all 3 were funny, personally.

Keno the most only because he stomped on Raph's foot and they all jumped on out in front of him.

[Hannah]

As for Don's crush, I'm not so convinced on that. You might well be the same person I discussed this with on Tumblr so I won't go into all of that. But I think the flowchart is more a result of "too insecure/shy to go into a situation without plans and backups and such" than it is "won't take no for an answer." I don't think it's a "nice guy" thing, I think it's a "teenage boy doesn't know how to behave like a normal person" thing.
I'm pretty torn on this issue. The way I perceived it when watching through the first time was definitely that Donnie was just going to very technical and, to him, logical extremes because that's how his brain works and again, he's a teenage mutant who has never interacted with a girl before. But I can also see how the particular way he's going about these things is sort of creepy, and how impressionable youth watching the show could get the wrong message. I'm hoping (and expecting) that Donnie will have to come to terms with his crush and his actions, and hopefully that will be portrayed in a way that lets the viewers know that he was not acting in a particularly healthy way.
That being said, my absolute favorite Donnie-has-a-crush scene is in Panic in the Sewers when the turtles are on the roof of a nearby building watching April try to plant the pizza box microphone w/ the Foot (or the Purple Dragons? I can't recall.) Her plan is foiled, so she takes initiative, thinks on her feet and talks her way into the building. (This itself is a great moment for April, in my opinion.) But I just love, absolutely love, the way Donnie looks at her, so awestruck, and says "She's so cool." I think this is a really great departure from April's introduction where Donnie has the hots for her because she's soooo pretty and that's all we know about her. I know it isn't perfect... but I think the show is starting to get it's sh*t together in a good way.

EDIT: Also you should message me your Tumblr so we can be Tumblr fraaaands.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Eh, give the kids some credit. That's like saying Splinter's supposed abusive parenting and his "seek victory not fairness" advice tells kids of today it's ok to hit your children and cheat your exams.

As long as Don doesn't stalk April, breaks in her room to watch her sleep, and emotionally manipulating her by playing a wounded underdog, then Don's crush is really harmless, considering it's all played for laughs and made him look like a butt monkey (even Mikey lampshaded that).

[Jester]

As long as Don doesn't stalk April, breaks in her room to watch her sleep, and emotionally manipulating her by playing a wounded underdog, then Don's crush is really harmless, considering it's all played for laughs and made him look like a butt monkey (even Mikey lampshaded that).
Man...in my mind I saw a sparkly vampire when I read that. Gotta love Stephanie Meyer setting back literature 100+ years.

[BabyTurtles]

Eh, give the kids some credit. That's like saying Splinter's supposed abusive parenting and his "seek victory not fairness" advice tells kids of today it's ok to hit your children and cheat your exams.

As long as Don doesn't stalk April, breaks in her room to watch her sleep, and emotionally manipulating her by playing a wounded underdog, then Don's crush is really harmless, considering it's all played for laughs and made him look like a butt monkey (even Mikey lampshaded that).

I pretty much agree :3 Donnie's crush isn't making April look bad, she pretty much ignores alot of what he does anyway XD it's harmless...until....like you said....he stalks her in her room....or takes creepy pictures..(okay more than one creepy picture!) XD LOL

[plastroncafe]

Everything about April's body language says she's not interested, and Donnie is ignoring that. He gets a minor pass because what does he know of girls? At some point though? She's going to tell him straight out that she's either not interested and that they're just friends, and that'll be the true test.

If he accepts it and moves on, good.
If he starts whining about how he's not "bad boy" enough, and how dare she rebuke him because he's always been nice to her, and about how girls always go for jerks?

Bad. Just bad.
Even worse if one of his brothers or Splinter doesn't call him on his craptastic behavior.

A guy doesn't have to stalk or watch you sleep to be a creeper.

[CyberCubed]

Applaud Nick for creating a teenage version of April. With the Turtles acting younger than ever before and feeling like real teens for the first time ever, having a younger April who can grow up alongside them was a brilliant move.

I couldn't imagine how an adult April would fit into the Nick cartoon, so I'm glad they aged her down.

Anyone besides me find it interesting how April went from being 28 in the original toon, to 23 in the 4kids cartoon, and now to 16? In the IDW comics I think she's like 18 or 19 since she's in College.

[Avatar Yuffie]

A guy doesn't have to stalk or watch you sleep to be a creeper.

True, but kindly drop that stone you plan on chucking to the guy (and/or girl) unless he/she deserves it.

I mean, aren't kids today celebrating their unrequited feelings by stalking said crush's facebook account, especially when they're not friends?

Man...in my mind I saw a sparkly vampire when I read that. Gotta love Stephanie Meyer setting back literature 100+ years.

Yeah, it's sad a female author, and her female fans, sees this as an acceptable behavior from a love interest.

[AnarkyLantern]

Some thoughts- April was going to be a teen in the WB show, so the idea has been floating around.

Edward Cullen is written as struggling with ssa and Meyer thinks him and Bella overstepping boundaries will fix that.

I can't imagine April doesn't know at this point but I'm inclined to think this is where the show will deal with unrequited love and staying friends once Casey is introduced.

[Luigiperps]

The line in monkey brains "do you really think you have a chance with April" seems like it ment something

[snake]

Some thoughts- April was going to be a teen in the WB show, so the idea has been floating around.

Edward Cullen is written as struggling with ssa and Meyer thinks him and Bella overstepping boundaries will fix that.

I can't imagine April doesn't know at this point but I'm inclined to think this is where the show will deal with unrequited love and staying friends once Casey is introduced.
Agree with this^^^


edit- holy moley I was a huge cuckatoli (9/12/16) hey assholes!

[Jelly Bean]

I'm kind of sorry that I missed out on this discussion and I am amazed that it was so positive and insightful with both female and male contributing in a nice way. I honestly did not think that was possiable. Whenever I see with guys involved in a discussion related to gender or female inequality it usually results in a lot of hatred and insults on how feminism is ruining western soceity like this youtube clip here:

iEtP_qV2rN8

quote from near the top of the page:

The increasing irresponsibility of rude, selfish women in America (ie, not responsible for their actions), is the biggest "contribution" of feminism. By encouraging women to act like @ssholes, feminism causes a lot of women to lose respect for themselves, as well. It makes them hate their nurturing, caring side, & their womanhood, & turns them into nasty, selfish, in-your-face bitches, that nobody really respects or wants anything to do with

rWR1Z4AiyWM

qoutes from one guy:

I cant even imagin what its going to be like 100 years from now 1 in 40 marrages make it? women are too quick to give up and operate based off what shes feeling this sec not logic thats a mans thing, women are run by the mid brain, sex food feelings, men are outer brain, logic, reason, commen sience, thats why women turn supper slut when they drink cause their mid brain the part your sexdrive is located is amped by the alcohole, women dont think things through they react based off feelings



honestly I'm sick of the negativity, so much hate on both sides. I really enjoyed reading this thread and how posive it was a nice read. To bad something like this couldn't be had in the general disscussion section, I think this is a great discussion that can applyed to other cartoon/tv shows other than just the new ninja turtles series.

As to the topic at hand, I have to say that this April is handled very well. She is not a Mary-Sue (yet) and she has been handled in a very down to earth way. I hope her ninja training is handled well and she evolves. I don't think she is asexual I think she is just a teen girl who has her head on her shoulders. I kind of like that she isn't flirty and uses her looks to manipulate others. I sometimes see it as a cop out when writers do this to female characters in cartoons. As for Karei she comes across as someone who kicks out of trolling people. I didn't find her character too overtly flirty.

[The Big Bad]

Note to self: be faster when it comes to these responses. Maybe then threads won't die around you.


BTW do the 2K3 had female ninjas who're not Karai? I don't remember.

Nope. Karai aside, every Foot employee with a confirmed gender has been male, extending all across their various divisions. And that's a problem, no matter how you slice it. If there's no known women because they canonically exist but the animators didn't think to add them, then that's yet another example of that show's unconscious sexism. If there's no known women because the Foot Clan simply didn't have them among their ranks, it makes the organization seem pretty damn stupid.
Now, one could posit that the ranks of the Foot Ninja, who are covered from head to toe, could include some women among their number, and to be fair, that's what I do in some of my fanfic. Still, it's a cop-out answer. I mean, it's not like the show couldn't have sprung for an additional character model, and it's not like they didn't already have practice telling similarly-shaped characters apart.

I really don't consider Karai as "just a love interest" in that show, so I don't have that problem. And really, because Leo has a crush on her, we must immediately reject Karai's other characteristics as an enemy and a rival?

I need to see more of April if that concern is justifiable. The good thing about being an old franchise is that we all know April wasn't created to be someone's girlfriend.

Again, this is not my point. The problem isn't Karai or April themselves, who I agree have other dimensions to them: the problem is having all of the show's female characters be love interests, making all the women who aren't love interests—say, because they exist in contexts where romance isn't appropriate, etc.--invisible. A show in which all women are love interests is one where awesome characters like Avatar's Azula can't exist. And while the streak has been broken with Ms. Campbell, I'd need to see more characters like her before I can feel optimistic that the show has truly turned a corner.


Sure, if you're willing to settle for good stories. Me personally? I'm shooting for great ones.

This this this this this. A huge part of the reason why works such as Mad Men, The Wire, or, again, Avatar are considered superlative is because their casts include tons of awesome women and/or people of color which allow them to tell stories that they wouldn't otherwise be able to tell, and the reason why they have tons of awesome women/ people of color is because they have tons of women and/or people of color period.

And the Kraang droids, well. Bugger, they are all in male skin suits. But adding an extra skin suit, would that ruin the joke that they all look the same? I guess there could be a female MIB skin suit as well, but why, if they are meant to look all alike, then there is no reason in that department. Maybe we'll see some new skin suits after the season end, it seems like the Kraang is fairly novice about humans.

Novice? More like willfully ignorant. They've lived among humans for at least fifteen years—more than enough time for them to learn about how humanity works. It's yet another one of those things borne out of production limitations that don't have an in-show explanation.

In any case, yes, part of the point of the Kraang bodysuits is for them all to be identical, which, as you say, arguably makes making female counterparts counterproductive. But here's the question: why, if they can only have one model of human-looking Kraang, couldn't that body have been that of a woman? Again, it goes back to my point: with one exception, every time the show has had to determine whether a character should be male or female, they almost invariably choose to make them male, unless they for some reason—say, because they want them to be love interests--can't be.


Ninja, masters of deceit, manipulation and espionage.

Female ninja, Kunoichi was especially trained to take advantage of others of opposite sex. Mochizuki Chiyome did so with her all-girl Shinobi school (If Mochizuki actually existed, she might be a fabrication from the Edo period) Where she trained her Kunoichi to blend in as geisha, nun and prostitutes to more easily do espionage or assassination jobs.

[...]

She might be a poor choice for first female villain with such a short female character list. But I don't see any malicious undertones in it. Except making karai the underling of Shredder, again. But that I have expressed before, girls are not allowed to rule over Shredder.

I don't agree with your reading of Karai, which, if I'm interpreting correctly, suggests that her flirtatiousness is an affectation. The way I see it, the opposite if true, and one of the key aspects of her character is that she ISN'T manipulating Leonardo, in the sense that she isn't trying to trick him into anything. She's been honest about what she's doing and about who she is: he just doesn't believe her because he's hot for her and has been made stupid by it.

Even so, none of this is actually relevant to my point. The fact that there may or may not be an in story reason doesn't mean that it's not problematic or worthy of condemnation—in fact, there are times where the explanation makes things worse, since it at times serves as half-assed justification for the creator's prejudices. I could write a story in which all people of color are canonically inferior to white people for in-story reasons, and it wouldn't make it any less racist.

And again, a lack of malice doesn't mean a message isn't problematic or that it shouldn't be called out. The fact remains that, in having a limited amount of women, the series unwittingly sends particular messages.


I think April's always been problematic. To me, she's always struck me as someone who is just... there. I find the Nick version of her preferable to other versions, but even so I get the feeling she is there simply because there has always been an April O'Neil in TMNT and because fans expect her to be there. Her main function in most iterations of TMNT has been to sit and have the Turtles origin story explained to her and then she does have a tendency to either become defined by her relationship to Casey or to slip into the background after that.

This is pretty accurate, and that's sad because theoretically, there's a lot one can do with a character who's meant to be “the normal one” and consciously tries not to let the weirdness affect them. Unfortunately, they require more sophistication and subtlety than animated series can usually provide.

In any case, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that a lot of the problems with April stems again from the “only regular female character” issue. It serves as an incentive to make her inoffensive, which often leads to blandness—she can't be mean, so she has to be nice about everything. She can't be dumb, so she has to be sensible. She can't be helpless, so she has to be able to take care of herself. She can't be slutty so she's made mostly asexual. While none of this makes her a boring character per se, it means that she often gets lost amidst the more flashy characters.

As for Don's crush, I'm not so convinced on that. You might well be the same person I discussed this with on Tumblr so I won't go into all of that. But I think the flowchart is more a result of "too insecure/shy to go into a situation without plans and backups and such" than it is "won't take no for an answer." I don't think it's a "nice guy" thing, I think it's a "teenage boy doesn't know how to behave like a normal person" thing.

That wasn't me on Tumblr, actually. I have an account, but haven't had the opportunity to actually have discussions with anyone.

In any case, I agree with you that the flowchart is, as you put it, a result of being"too insecure/shy to go into a situation without plans and backups and such". However I don't think that his intentions really matter, in the end: no matter what those may be, the fact remains that in basing his interactions with her on a list of predetermined responses based on what he thinks she's like, he is being hostile to her agency and reducing her to what basically amounts to a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure book he can win.

Now, it may be that when push comes to shove, Donny would stop himself before he took the chart to its natural conclusion and would indeed learn that using the chart the way that he suggests he'll use it is creepy to the extreme. But if that was the case, we never get to see it. In fact, the episode not only ends with the implication that Donatello has successfully mapped all possible interactions with April, it implies that Donatello is merely being adorable and romantic and geeky, and that April is unharmed by Don's advances. And, in the end, is the problem: not that Donatello is a Nice Guy—as people have said, it's natural enough, given circumstances--but the fact that the show is presenting his Nice Guy-ness as something that is at best cute and rooting-for-worthy, and funny and at worst harmless, which is very problematic.

Frankly, I think it would be cool to see more females in Space Heroes. The only girl we saw there was Celestial, and she kind of got disintegrated.

This reminds me of one of the reasons why I don't buy “production limitations” as a complete explanation for why most of the extras are men. Theoretically, there's no such limitations when it comes to the Space Heroes scenes, and yet the only female character is once again the one character that couldn't possibly have been a man—a love interest.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Note to self: be faster when it comes to these responses. Maybe then threads won't die around you.


Again, this is not my point. The problem isn't Karai or April themselves, who I agree have other dimensions to them: the problem is having all of the show's female characters be love interests, making all the women who aren't love interests—say, because they exist in contexts where romance isn't appropriate, etc.--invisible. A show in which all women are love interests is one where awesome characters like Avatar's Azula can't exist. And while the streak has been broken with Ms. Campbell, I'd need to see more characters like her before I can feel optimistic that the show has truly turned a corner.


Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I see no problem to have the two recurring girls to be a person of affection by two of the four Turtles.

There's nothing wrong with romance, it's how it's written.

It's good you bring up ATLA btw. Azula also had a crush in an episode, and she and Ty Lee talked about boys. Does this make her a weaker female? Did this emotion destroy her character? Hell no!

Now, did you know Azula was originally a man? Will you be theoretically posting how male!Azula hitting on his (female) crush who is clearly spooked about him a terrible awful writing decision that must be eliminated immediately?

But I digress.

I will have an issue Leo needs to "save her soul" to make Karai a good person. Karai does not need Leo to do things for her, period. And I hope that is what Nick will portray that shade Karai stands in.

As for Don being a "Nice Guy" (I am sorry this word was corrupted, as there ARE genuinely kind men out there who does good things without expecting rewards from women for their work... Wolf in Sheep's clothing was the more honest expression), unless Don made Rockwell attack him and made his brothers tease him so April will be sorry for him; or Don released those rats so he can save April, then no, I won't be all "think of the children" because of a one episode flowchart.

April and Karai are unfortunate enough not to be Turtles so they'll have to sit away from the spotlight with Splinter and Shredder (I remember Black Nerd's recent video he wished Shredder gets more screentime). And this is the reason I wish Venus made through TMNT canon.

[Refractive Reflections]

I think the major problem with female characters being underrepresented or only being seen as having romantic parts is due to TMNT premise itself. You already have 4 Turtles, Splinter, and Shredder, and they are all male and the show revolves around these 6 characters for a majority of the air time (at least 70%). I think the producers/writers might worry about giving too much "air time" to other characters outside of the 6 (whether they are male or female), because then it doesn't focus on the TMNT but more on those other characters and those 6 don't become the "main characters" anymore.

But it's not like mostly-female casts don't do this to males characters too (being underrepresented or only having romantic parts). One cartoon would be Sailor Moon, or in more grown-up shows/movies like UPN's Girlfriends, HBO's Sex And The City, and Waiting To Exhale. (Which are all good shows/movies by the way.)

When you already have 4 main characters in any show, it's difficult in trying to give them all equal "air time" and sometimes it may inadvertently come off as sexist when the show is trying to highlight the friendship/brotherhood/sisterhood aspect when the 4 main characters are all one gender.

While I'm always for strong, independent female characters in TMNT...I just don't see any character (male or female, weak or strong) having significant airtime in the future because you already have those 6 main characters crowding the show (who just so happened to be male), and unfortunately if the show spends too much time explaining/developing any character outside of those six (be it male or female)...it takes away the focus from the TMNT and the direction of the show changes.

(Holding breath as I'm about to get flamed, LOL :lol: )

[BabyTurtles]

I think the major problem with female characters being underrepresented or only being seen as having romantic parts is due to TMNT premise itself. You already have 4 Turtles, Splinter, and Shredder, and they are all male and the show revolves around these 6 characters for a majority of the air time (at least 70%). I think the producers/writers might worry about giving too much "air time" to other characters outside of the 6 (whether they are male or female), because then it doesn't focus on the TMNT but more on those other characters and those 6 don't become the "main characters" anymore.

But it's not like mostly-female casts don't do this to males characters too (being underrepresented or only having romantic parts). One cartoon would be Sailor Moon, or in more grown-up shows/movies like UPN's Girlfriends, HBO's Sex And The City, and Waiting To Exhale. (Which are all good shows/movies by the way.)

When you already have 4 main characters in any show, it's difficult in trying to give them all equal "air time" and sometimes it may inadvertently come off as sexist when the show is trying to highlight the friendship/brotherhood/sisterhood aspect when the 4 main characters are all one gender.

While I'm always for strong, independent female characters in TMNT...I just don't see any character (male or female, weak or strong) having significant airtime in the future because you already have those 6 main characters crowding the show (who just so happened to be male), and unfortunately if the show spends too much time explaining/developing any character outside of those six (be it male or female)...it takes away the focus from the TMNT and the direction of the show changes.

(Holding breath as I'm about to get flamed, LOL :lol: )

I agree :3 My little pony has 6 girls and even though theres spike(a boy) it doesn't focus on him as much as the others. theres like 4 seasons...and about 7 episodes(give or take) centered around him.

[Cure]

That makes My Little Pony sexist.

[plastroncafe]

No, it really doesn't.

[The Stryker]

I'm creating the Masculist Analyses thread right nuh.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

I agree :3 My little pony has 6 girls and even though theres spike(a boy) it doesn't focus on him as much as the others. theres like 4 seasons...and about 7 episodes(give or take) centered around him.

As a man I find this very offending. I am shocked and disgusted that a popular brand such as My Little Pony would carelessly disregard the potential that a male role can have in stories. :(

[plastroncafe]

I'm creating the Masculist Analyses thread right nuh.

If only this were a real thing, and not some kind of sad attempt at sarcasm. I'd very much love to talk about how masculinity is portrayed in media.

[BabyTurtles]

That makes My Little Pony sexist.

well....It could be....But I don't think it is...it just focuses on the girls more than the boys. Same with TMNT

TMNT is not just about kicking butt as ninjas it's about family.... it just happens to be an all boy family
.........plus April as a sister
My little Pony is about friendship, it just happens to be an all girl friendship ..........plus spike XD

sometimes cartoons just happen that way.

but....I don't think it's sexist..........as long as the girls(or boys) that do show up are cool I'm happy.
And there all plenty of other shows that have a mix between girls AND boys.....example Young Justice, Avatar the last airbender

all I'm saying is...shows don't always have to have a mix.....sometimes the story calls for more boys than girls...or vice versa..it just depends

[The Big Bad]

It's good you bring up ATLA btw. Azula also had a crush in an episode, and she and Ty Lee talked about boys. Does this make her a weaker female? Did this emotion destroy her character? Hell no!

Of course not. Azula's brief flirtation with flirting is miles away from TMNT's treatment of Don's crush on April. First and most importantly, it's a story about HER. Donatello's crush is in no way a story about April—you could replace her with any other girl and still play the exact same beats. When it comes to their specific romance arcs, Azula is a subject—she acts--while April is an object—she is acted upon.

(Karai is in a position between the two, since she and Leo actually interact and flirt with one another. That said, the romance aspect of their relationship is still part of Leo's story more than it is Karai's, as we are privy to his thoughts where we aren't hers.)

Second, Azula's sex/romance life was only introduced after she'd already become a fully developed character with various different dimensions, and the way she dealt with romance was informed by her character and the context, which makes it more honest and less contrived than anything in TMNT. During “The Beach”, there is little question of just why Azula pursued a guy she'd never met before, and that's because we knew her well enough to know that she was doing it more as experiment (combined with some lust) than because of actual feelings for the jock.

Meanwhile, in TMNT, both April and Karai were introduced as love interests first and characters second, in ways that severely undermine the storytelling. With Donatello and April, the turtle's love at first sight thing undermines the idea of his interest as anything but his version of lust, which makes seem a) shallow, and b) insecure for not coming out and admitting it; both of those are key Nice Guy (TM) qualities, which I can guarantee is not the writers' intentions. With Karai and Leonardo, the fact that they act like they know each other after barely a minute of fighting strains disbelief, and yet we still get some stunningly artificial interaction because the writers thought it important to introduce the romance angle from the beginning.

Finally, the fact remains that unlike with TMNT, Azula's flirtations don't come across as something that occurs because Azula is a woman, but because Azula is Azula. Because the story has a million female characters—each with their own expressions of sexuality, some of which are expressed explicitly, and some which aren't—Azula's story does not carry the essentialist undertones it might have carried if she were the only woman in the show.


As for Don being a "Nice Guy" (I am sorry this word was corrupted, as there ARE genuinely kind men out there who does good things without expecting rewards from women for their work... Wolf in Sheep's clothing was the more honest expression),

That's what the capitalization is for--men who are only "nice" because they want and/or expect some sort of unstated reciprocation are Nice Guys. People who are genuinely nice and do nice things because they want to--like, say, the other three turtles--are nice guys.

unless Don made Rockwell attack him and made his brothers tease him so April will be sorry for him; or Don released those rats so he can save April, then no, I won't be all "think of the children" because of a one episode flowchart.

Except it's not one episode. It's taking candid pictures of April and them placing them as his desktop background without permission. It's using Metalhead to be able to leer at her unnoticed. It's asking for her phone number just for the thrill of being able to convince himself that her giving it to him was a sign that she held deeper feelings for him.

Now, let's look at the flowchart. The basic idea that it's meant to solve is, ostensibly, that Donatello wants to hang out more with April,which, as "problems" go, is one with one specific, obvious, and easy-to-implement solution: simply asking April if she'd like to hang out with him. If she does--which, given that they are friends, would logically be the case at least some of the time--hooray for him. If she doesn't, it means...well, it could mean tons of different things. Sure, it could be because she doesn't like Donatello, but it could just as easily mean that she has other things to do, or that she simply would like to spend some time alone—stuff that doesn't imply that she doesn't see Donatello as a friend, but does imply that that she has a life outside of him. Whatever the reason though for that “no” thought, there is only one appropriate response, if Donatello truly sees April as his friend: “I respect your decision regardless of my opinion on the matter and will not question.”

And yet, as Donatello's chart indicates, that is not his response to a “no”. Instead, his first instinct is to try and turn that “no” into a “yes” not by speaking his mind as one would a friend, but by saying whatever he thinks April wants to hear, regardless of its relationship to whatever may be considered the truth. In effect, he believes it's okay to lie to a woman and question her agency if you like her. And it the problems with this aren't obvious, then I just don't know what to say.

Now, it's clear that from the chart's complete absence in subsequent episodes that it wasn't something meant to be taken seriously—it was a one-episode running gag, nothing more. Except that actually makes it worse, since it means that the writers see that sort of behavior as innocuous and funny instead of problematic, and what's more, increases the probability that the audience will see it as something worthy of emulation rather than something to be unpacked and debunked.

I think the major problem with female characters being underrepresented or only being seen as having romantic parts is due to TMNT premise itself. You already have 4 Turtles, Splinter, and Shredder, and they are all male and the show revolves around these 6 characters for a majority of the air time (at least 70%). I think the producers/writers might worry about giving too much "air time" to other characters outside of the 6 (whether they are male or female), because then it doesn't focus on the TMNT but more on those other characters and those 6 don't become the "main characters" anymore.

But it's not like mostly-female casts don't do this to males characters too (being underrepresented or only having romantic parts). One cartoon would be Sailor Moon, or in more grown-up shows/movies like UPN's Girlfriends, HBO's Sex And The City, and Waiting To Exhale. (Which are all good shows/movies by the way.)

When you already have 4 main characters in any show, it's difficult in trying to give them all equal "air time" and sometimes it may inadvertently come off as sexist when the show is trying to highlight the friendship/brotherhood/sisterhood aspect when the 4 main characters are all one gender.

While I'm always for strong, independent female characters in TMNT...I just don't see any character (male or female, weak or strong) having significant airtime in the future because you already have those 6 main characters crowding the show (who just so happened to be male), and unfortunately if the show spends too much time explaining/developing any character outside of those six (be it male or female)...it takes away the focus from the TMNT and the direction of the show changes.

(Holding breath as I'm about to get flamed, LOL :lol: )

The equivalence isn't quite equivalent, though. Shows like Sailor Moon, Powerpuff Girls, Friendship is Magic, and Sex and the City are definitively women led, but they rarely have the sort of gender-based disparities TMNT has. Sailor Moon, had one male character for every female character, at least in its first arc, which is the one I'm most familiar with—ditto for Winx Club. Powerpuff Girls had tons of men in its cast—according to TV Tropes' character page, they ended up outnumbering the girls, when all was said and done. The same is very rarely true in cartoons headlined by men. Heck, the problem here as we've noted, isn't as much with the main cast, but the fact that the supporting/recurring cast is also almost exclusively male.

I agree :3 My little pony has 6 girls and even though theres spike(a boy) it doesn't focus on him as much as the others. theres like 4 seasons...and about 7 episodes(give or take) centered around him.That makes My Little Pony sexist.

Nope--at least not in the way you imply: there's key differences between Friendship is Magic and TMNT which make all the difference in the world. The gender disparity in the former is limited to two very specific social circles--the main five and the Cutie Marks Crusaders--which are groups based on friendship. Like I said above,verywhere else, you're just as likely to see a male character as a female one, serving a variety of roles.

In TMNT, however, it's not just the main family unit that's overwhelmingly or exclusively male: it's also every other group, regardless of purpose or context. Ninjas? Overwhelmingly male. Mutagen victims? Exclusively male. Foot Clan? Overwhelmingly male, with the only exception having exceptional circumstances behind her inclusion. Purple Dragons? Exclusively male. NYPD? Exclusively male. Scientists? Exclusively male. Characters who save the world? Exclusively male. Bystanders? Overwhelmingly male. In fact, if we want to find a group that's largely or exclusively female, there's only one--love interests.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Of course not. Azula's brief flirtation with flirting is miles away from TMNT's treatment of Don's crush on April. First and most importantly, it's a story about HER. Donatello's crush is in no way a story about April—you could replace her with any other girl and still play the exact same beats. When it comes to their specific romance arcs, Azula is a subject—she acts--while April is an object—she is acted upon.

(Karai is in a position between the two, since she and Leo actually interact and flirt with one another. That said, the romance aspect of their relationship is still part of Leo's story more than it is Karai's, as we are privy to his thoughts where we aren't hers.)

Second, Azula's sex/romance life was only introduced after she'd already become a fully developed character with various different dimensions, and the way she dealt with romance was informed by her character and the context, which makes it more honest and less contrived than anything in TMNT. During “The Beach”, there is little question of just why Azula pursued a guy she'd never met before, and that's because we knew her well enough to know that she was doing it more as experiment (combined with some lust) than because of actual feelings for the jock.

Meanwhile, in TMNT, both April and Karai were introduced as love interests first and characters second, in ways that severely undermine the storytelling. With Donatello and April, the turtle's love at first sight thing undermines the idea of his interest as anything but his version of lust, which makes seem a) shallow, and b) insecure for not coming out and admitting it; both of those are key Nice Guy (TM) qualities, which I can guarantee is not the writers' intentions. With Karai and Leonardo, the fact that they act like they know each other after barely a minute of fighting strains disbelief, and yet we still get some stunningly artificial interaction because the writers thought it important to introduce the romance angle from the beginning.

Finally, the fact remains that unlike with TMNT, Azula's flirtations don't come across as something that occurs because Azula is a woman, but because Azula is Azula. Because the story has a million female characters—each with their own expressions of sexuality, some of which are expressed explicitly, and some which aren't—Azula's story does not carry the essentialist undertones it might have carried if she were the only woman in the show.




That's what the capitalization is for--men who are only "nice" because they want and/or expect some sort of unstated reciprocation are Nice Guys. People who are genuinely nice and do nice things because they want to--like, say, the other three turtles--are nice guys.

Except it's not one episode. It's taking candid pictures of April and them placing them as his desktop background without permission. It's using Metalhead to be able to leer at her unnoticed. It's asking for her phone number just for the thrill of being able to convince himself that her giving it to him was a sign that she held deeper feelings for him.

Now, let's look at the flowchart. The basic idea that it's meant to solve is, ostensibly, that Donatello wants to hang out more with April,which, as "problems" go, is one with one specific, obvious, and easy-to-implement solution: simply asking April if she'd like to hang out with him. If she does--which, given that they are friends, would logically be the case at least some of the time--hooray for him. If she doesn't, it means...well, it could mean tons of different things. Sure, it could be because she doesn't like Donatello, but it could just as easily mean that she has other things to do, or that she simply would like to spend some time alone—stuff that doesn't imply that she doesn't see Donatello as a friend, but does imply that that she has a life outside of him. Whatever the reason though for that “no” thought, there is only one appropriate response, if Donatello truly sees April as his friend: “I respect your decision regardless of my opinion on the matter and will not question.”

And yet, as Donatello's chart indicates, that is not his response to a “no”. Instead, his first instinct is to try and turn that “no” into a “yes” not by speaking his mind as one would a friend, but by saying whatever he thinks April wants to hear, regardless of its relationship to whatever may be considered the truth. In effect, he believes it's okay to lie to a woman and question her agency if you like her. And it the problems with this aren't obvious, then I just don't know what to say.

Now, it's clear that from the chart's complete absence in subsequent episodes that it wasn't something meant to be taken seriously—it was a one-episode running gag, nothing more. Except that actually makes it worse, since it means that the writers see that sort of behavior as innocuous and funny instead of problematic, and what's more, increases the probability that the audience will see it as something worthy of emulation rather than something to be unpacked and debunked.



The equivalence isn't quite equivalent, though. Shows like Sailor Moon, Powerpuff Girls, Friendship is Magic, and Sex and the City are definitively women led, but they rarely have the sort of gender-based disparities TMNT has. Sailor Moon, had one male character for every female character, at least in its first arc, which is the one I'm most familiar with—ditto for Winx Club. Powerpuff Girls had tons of men in its cast—according to TV Tropes' character page, they ended up outnumbering the girls, when all was said and done. The same is very rarely true in cartoons headlined by men. Heck, the problem here as we've noted, isn't as much with the main cast, but the fact that the supporting/recurring cast is also almost exclusively male.



Nope--at least not in the way you imply: there's key differences between Friendship is Magic and TMNT which make all the difference in the world. The gender disparity in the former is limited to two very specific social circles--the main five and the Cutie Marks Crusaders--which are groups based on friendship. Like I said above,verywhere else, you're just as likely to see a male character as a female one, serving a variety of roles.

In TMNT, however, it's not just the main family unit that's overwhelmingly or exclusively male: it's also every other group, regardless of purpose or context. Ninjas? Overwhelmingly male. Mutagen victims? Exclusively male. Foot Clan? Overwhelmingly male, with the only exception having exceptional circumstances behind her inclusion. Purple Dragons? Exclusively male. NYPD? Exclusively male. Scientists? Exclusively male. Characters who save the world? Exclusively male. Bystanders? Overwhelmingly male. In fact, if we want to find a group that's largely or exclusively female, there's only one--love interests.

I think you are being too hard on April. You're telling me she's an object, not a character, just "Don's love interest" when the show has not even told us her whole story yet.

Can you just ease up a bit? I can't help thinking you're criticizing her character is because she is one of the two girls and she didn't fill your "positive feminine quota" pedestal.

Azula didn't have that problem because she wasn't "the only girl" in that show. ATLA has Katara and Toph as main characters, so even if Azula was not in the episode, there'd still be girls contributing in the plot. Azula has two female friends as her hench women, so she has no stigma as the "bad girl" but Azula was NEVER THE big bad of the show. True, she serves as Zuko's foil, but she was also in the shadow of their father.

The thing that got going for her is that she has a very ruthless personality, is extremely clever liar, a good fighter and kicks the literal butts of her enemies, her having "other dimensions", especially her very deep mommy complex and she actually LIKED her friends, only occurred in season 3, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Honestly, I find her conquering Ba Sing Se a little contrived and full of lucky coincidences. It could have all been undone if Sokka just bothered to look at them.

Now, I'm glad you don't think her wanting to know what having a "normal" crush would be like is not demeaning to her character, that's great. What I am asking you if Azula is a guy, would you be all over his case for coming onto a female crush, who got afraid of him? I noticed you are excusing her behavior for said jock.

ATLA has solid female characters, but a part of me is sad Suki and Ty Lee are rather flat... Suki especially since she's part of the group and Sokka's girlfriend.

As for your Don hating... please stop. Look at the other episodes and show me his April desktop. Show me the scenes after Monkey Brains he hangs out with her is all thanks to his flowchart. And Metalhead has been out of commission after its debut, I'd be really disappointed if Don wanted it fixed so he can look at her without her knowledge. If he was doing this crush like Helga from Hey, Arnold! as in collecting April's bubblegum so he can make her face sculpture enshrined in his closet, then I'll share your sentiment his crush is unhealthy and being a creeper.

So for now, it's not. At least not for me. You may be outraged by that Metalhead oggling scene, but I got secondhand embarrassment because Don keeps making a fool out of himself.

Finally, I can't comment much about Karai, because I really don't know what she really thinks about Leo. But please don't call her "just a love interest" because... she really isn't. By Alien Agenda Leo decided, or at least lied to himself, to put his feelings for her on hold, so this should no longer be a problem for you.