Does anyone else prefer the OT mutants over the 4kids/Nick ones?

[CyberCubed]

For a long time I'm been trying to figure out why all the old Fred Wolf/Playmates/Archie mutants were more memorable and likeable than a lot of the 4kids or Nick mutant characters. And then I realized why:

The old 80's and 90's mutants were actual characters. They had personalities, and weren't just mindless monsters or freaks that couldn't speak. Also their designs were based on animals which gave them an eye-pleasing feel, they weren't overdesigned with spikes and rotten eggs (like Dogpound and/or Pidgeon Pete).

1) Just look at how in the 4kids series that none of the mutants could speak except for Quarry. They were all literally treated like mindless monsters. Same for the ones that appeared in Season 4, and the cockroach mutant in that show. They also all seemed to be based off of bugs to me, and other type of dwelling creatures.

2) In the Nick series Dogpound and Fishface kept their personalities, but others like Snakeweed, Cockroach terminator, Justin, etc either don't speak or are treated as monsters.


Look at how memorable Groundchuck and Dirtbag were despite only appearing in like 2 episodes. Their characterisation was extremely good for a mutant bull and mole...and weren't just treated like mindless freaks. People love Slash, the Mutanimals, Leatherhead, Bebop/Rocksteady, even Rahzar/Tokka for this reason.

I hope the Nick series realizes this and improves the characterisations of the mutants.

[Powder]

I definitely prefer the originals, yes. They were the most grotesque and funkedelic baddies out! They were for the most part outright gross or terrifying in concept, if not just pretty cool/badass. The personality definitely went a long way too. At least Nick is getting that right with some of their mutants, like DP & FF. I don't mind that others are more primal, though, I think to some extent it can work to their advantage. An ominous cybernetic roach who doesn't speak and just stares you down is terrifying as hell, I think, haha.

[cartoonistaaron]

I think the old show had better, simpler mutant designs - but I think they owe more to the Playmates Toys people than to the cartoon's character designers. Which may mean the Mirage crew (who came up with a lot of those toy designs) were better designers than the crew working on the 4Kids show (which was slick but bland).

The new show has okay designs but the concepts themselves aren't as strong, I don't think. It's hard to improve on the visual of a humanoid rhinoceros or warthog. Dogpound is okay but he doesn't have that, I dunno, "iconic" feel of Rocksteady or Bebop.

[Xav]

1) Just look at how in the 4kids series that none of the mutants could speak except for Quarry. They were all literally treated like mindless monsters. Same for the ones that appeared in Season 4, and the cockroach mutant in that show. They also all seemed to be based off of bugs to me, and other type of dwelling creatures.

2) In the Nick series Dogpound and Fishface kept their personalities, but others like Snakeweed, Cockroach terminator, Justin, etc either don't speak or are treated as monsters.To be fair the Dark Turtles, and mutant Hun could speak in the 4kids series. As well as Spider Bytez and Pete from the Nick series. Also I think it is more realistic to have characters like Spy Roach and Justin not speak, as unlike Bradford or Xever they weren't humans originally so they wouldn't know English right away.

[CyberCubed]

I think the old show had better, simpler mutant designs - but I think they owe more to the Playmates Toys people than to the cartoon's character designers. Which may mean the Mirage crew (who came up with a lot of those toy designs) were better designers than the crew working on the 4Kids show (which was slick but bland).

The new show has okay designs but the concepts themselves aren't as strong, I don't think. It's hard to improve on the visual of a humanoid rhinoceros or warthog. Dogpound is okay but he doesn't have that, I dunno, "iconic" feel of Rocksteady or Bebop.

I kind of agree. The abstract designs for Spiderbitez is odd, a mutant spider could have been very well designed but they went with a weird shape for him.

There was just something about the way the old mutants were made where they weren't complex or overdesigned, but still looked good.

[Jephael]

I always found the H.A.V.O.C. mutants from season 8 fascinating. I kinda wish we had gotten to see more of them.

[Coola Yagami]

The mutants kind of had more of a backstory or character traits that influenced their designs. Bebop and Rocksteady were gangsters, and they dressed up as such even after being mutated. Leatherhead was a canjun gator so he dressed and talked accordingly. Groundchuck and Dirtbag were given weird armor and miner gear to wear. Scumbug used to be an exterminator, so he dressed like that and was armed with killer bug spray. Even Ace Duck was dressed like a pilot.

Here... they just become weird monsters, and some of them can't talk. Dogpound at least got to keep his dogi-ish pants, but everyone else... If this was the OT, Snakeweed woulda been dressed like a truck driver... Spider Bytes would have looked more like a spider, but still dressed like Vic making middle-aged man jokes, and Fishface would have still have legs and be wearing whatever was left of his original outfit.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

For a long time I'm been trying to figure out why all the old Fred Wolf/Playmates/Archie mutants were more memorable and likeable than a lot of the 4kids or Nick mutant characters. And then I realized why:

The old 80's and 90's mutants were actual characters. They had personalities, and weren't just mindless monsters or freaks that couldn't speak. Also their designs were based on animals which gave them an eye-pleasing feel, they weren't overdesigned with spikes and rotten eggs (like Dogpound and/or Pidgeon Pete).

YES!! This is why I love the OT mutants- better design, more personality, and more POTENTIAL! for me, IT WAS THE ANTHROPOMORPHIC MUTANTS OF THE OT/PLAYMATES FIGS that made TMNT. Mona Lisa, Mondo Gecko, Ray Fillet, Rocksteady and Bebop... these characters are more TMNT than anything the 2003 series, Red Sky, or- hate me all you want- Mirage series threw at us. I'll definitely shall out $$$ for anything that features these characters again!

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Leatherhead in the 2012 show is an awesome character! (and even in the 2003 show)

[grungethemovie]

i agree with the OT mutants being more memorable
Coola Yagami noticed something very interesting in their designs, they were mash-ups, they were not concepted as just monster-animal, but as anthropomorphic characters, giving them a background that gave them more complexity.
it's a win formula to make interesting characters - punk/warthog and rhino, superhero/bat, ninja/turtes, kung fu/panda, samurai/rabbit and so on

As for nick mutants...well, seems like if you're in a wife-beater and jeans you better not hang around the turtles - ok, the joke got old cause it only applies to the first 2, but i feel they're just creating some eye-candy grotesque monsters without giving them a raison d'etre.
snake is a too-old-for-nick casey jones that was a driver for kraang? (even though they were never shown with any kind of association with humans after - besides the "scientists" that are pretty much just april's dad - that looks like joss whedon) spiderbite is a grumpy old man that doesn't like the turtles?
maybe they were just trying some discartable mutants to start off, ut what they're gonna do? kill them? (well, they try, but it seems snakeweed's heart will keep beating- until we forget him again)
and everyone enjoying dogpond and fishface, lemme tell you a secret - you don't - it's bradford and xever that were the good characters we cared for, i'm still to see them used well after their mutation, if we started the series after that, we'll see how they were way more present, interesting - and relevant - as humans...*sob (and bradford was awesome even in his first appearance - shredder jr - i miss that :/)

but i guess leatherhead is always awesome, right?XD

[miru]

I agree with the pre-Red Sky tmnt chars being better because of them.being more characters than beasts.

I like the fact that the Nicktoon has plenty of people-mutants in addition to the beast mutants. The beast-mutants here have this grotesque; almost abstract feel that I like better than the sleek, boring look used by 2k3. I want to see some of the old mutant characters (especially Mona Lisa, Venus Di Milo, and Ninjara) return on the Nick show.

[Ninjinister]

I actually like the kooky action-figure only mutants like Hotspot, Halfcourt, Sandstorm, Monty Moose, and so forth, the best.

[pannoni1]

4kids wasn't a mutant-heavy series so it was more about raw Ninja action, but those that were specially created for the series (not the comic adaptions) aren't that memorable.

But I prefer the OT/Nick mutants, since this allows extra surprises in battle and often leads to more exciting, funny moments. They have a wide range of personality types and have the more memorable action figures. Nick's tend to be bigger and tougher while the OT's are funnier with more clever attack moves.

[LH]

Leatherhead in the 2012 show is an awesome character! (and even in the 2003 show)


but i guess leatherhead is always awesome, right?XD

With this I must agree. :twink:

I believe every version of each character has something unique to offer. While I know little of the OT Leatherhead, the 2003 and 2012 versions of the character, while similar, are both uniquely complex and have qualities and personalities that make them both very memorable.

[plasticturtle]

I definately prefer the OT mutants. I just like their looks and personalities better than anything seen in the last two shows ( though Leatherhead may be the exception to this. I really like the Nick version. )

[Plasticplayhouse]

i prefer the OT mutants compared to any of the other versions. the nick show had a really good leatherhead though.

[Miles]

*raises hand*

Totally. The character design was much more pleasing in the OT, and actually matched the Turtles' style of mutation as opposed to whatever wacky 'monster-of-the-week' iteration the Nick designers are coming up with. In my mind, it's one of the primary points I dislike about the new show - the character design.

Regarding Leatherhead, I have to say that the OT/Archie version is my favorite. I mean come on, Ragin' Cajun'? Can you get any more cool? Being an inter-dimensional lab rat is just...so beneath the awesomeness that is an anthropomorphic alligator. :D

[MikeandRaph87]

*raises hand*

Totally. The character design was much more pleasing in the OT, and actually matched the Turtles' style of mutation as opposed to whatever wacky 'monster-of-the-week' iteration the Nick designers are coming up with. In my mind, it's one of the primary points I dislike about the new show - the character design.

Regarding Leatherhead, I have to say that the OT/Archie version is my favorite. I mean come on, Ragin' Cajun'? Can you get any more cool? Being an inter-dimensional lab rat is just...so beneath the awesomeness that is an anthropomorphic alligator. :D

Amen,bro! I loved Leatherhead's dialogue and cannot erase Leatherhead as a vilalin out of my head. He does not have to be a ragin' cajun but evil is what Leatherhead best serves.

The designs of the '87 cartoon era were 1. meancing 2. bada$$ and cool 3. Most all of them could speak and were not the generic monsters that Laird perferred or Nick likes to split between. Being a generic monster takes away the "cool" factor and takes away personality. This is a good reason why the TMNT took off like it did.

Scumbug vs Cockroach Terminator? Scumbug would have been better here not because he is a little used preexisting character but because he had a personality that was in need of exploring and his ability to speak and have character made him more interesting than that speechless monstrosity. I mean Cockroach Terminator is an okay character but is not as cool as Scumbug becasue of that. I do give props for the design though.

[Loudo]

Mutants are one of my least favorite things about the OT... Most of the time you have to keep reminding yourself they are mutants, because if they had just been normal humans the story would have been pretty much the same.
I know that in a world where you can just wear a coat and everyone will believe you're human, being a mutant isn't as tragic as it should be, but come on. Rocksteady and Bepop feature in almost every episode, they could have shown us a glimpse of them having problems "finding a date on a Saturday night".

The Nick show has the same problem to an extent, but at least the newly mutated humans use their new powers to attack the turtles in blind rage. That could count as some sort of emotional response, I suppose.

In the 4kids show, when a character mutates, that's a very important element for that character's personal story and development.
Quarry, Leatherhead, Finn, the Dark Turtles and Hun all felt real characters to me, dealing with their mutation in a very believable way.

[CyberCubed]

Mutants are one of my least favorite things about the OT... Most of the time you have to keep reminding yourself they are mutants, because if they had just been normal humans the story would have been pretty much the same.
I know that in a world where you can just wear a coat and everyone will believe you're human, being a mutant isn't as tragic as it should be, but come on. Rocksteady and Bepop feature in almost every episode, they could have shown us a glimpse of them having problems "finding a date on a Saturday night".

What are you talking about? Most humans ran away in fear when they saw mutants in the old show.

And the mutants we did see either had tragic stories or were dumb animals to begin with so they liked their higher intelliigent. Bebop/Rocksteady liked being mutants and were probably too dumb to care.

[Coola Yagami]

Mutants are one of my least favorite things about the OT... Most of the time you have to keep reminding yourself they are mutants, because if they had just been normal humans the story would have been pretty much the same.
I know that in a world where you can just wear a coat and everyone will believe you're human, being a mutant isn't as tragic as it should be, but come on. Rocksteady and Bepop feature in almost every episode, they could have shown us a glimpse of them having problems "finding a date on a Saturday night".

The Nick show has the same problem to an extent, but at least the newly mutated humans use their new powers to attack the turtles in blind rage. That could count as some sort of emotional response, I suppose.

In the 4kids show, when a character mutates, that's a very important element for that character's personal story and development.
Quarry, Leatherhead, Finn, the Dark Turtles and Hun all felt real characters to me, dealing with their mutation in a very believable way.

The Dark Turtles were more like... evil alien clones... it's not like they were ever actual pet Turtles....

Rocksteady and Bebop are actually happy being mutants. Groundchuck and Dirtbag had a moment of confusion as to what to do now that they can walk and talk. Slash's entire episode was about how he 'had a bad day' and had so much thrown at him the same day he was mutated. Even though Baxter was a different case, he spent most of the time getting revenge for being turned into a fly. He was probably the one with the most 'I'm a monster!!!' mindset you're reffering to.

Although, Muckman and Mutagen Man weren't so happy with what happened to them at first either. Mutagen Man's episode was mostly about him wanting to be back to normal. He didn't want to do evil things, but he did what he had to do to become human again.

[CyberCubed]

Although, Muckman and Mutagen Man weren't so happy with what happened to them at first either. Mutagen Man's episode was mostly about him wanting to be back to normal. He didn't want to do evil things, but he did what he had to do to become human again.

Don't forget Donatello told Muckman/Joeeyeball that he could work on turning them back to normal, which I assume he did off-screen. And Mutagen Man was able to turn his appearance back to a human anyway.

And why would animals hate being mutants? They go from being mindless animals to being intelligent.

[Shredded]

I didn't grow up so much with TOS, only very vaguely rememeber watching a very few episodes in re-run, and they were compleately overshadowed by the power that is Batman tas, so I have no nostalgia towards them.

From what I can see, they seem pretty decent, especially for its time were they fun.
But the show itself is kind of out-dated, so.. the monsters kind of are as well.

for 4kids.. geesh. The mutants weren't the memorable part at all, the ninjas, time travelers and reacurring villains were.
The out-break story-line was kind of neat, but that is more due to the effect it had on Donnie than every-thing else.
If you ask me, taking the most logical clever turtle, and turn that one into a mindless beast, was a stroke of genius.
Also posses an interesting question. "What do we do without our sciense dude!?"

in the Nick show, I do so adore that the humans mutated to monsters are people first and mutants later.
Both Bradford and Xever has a strong personality, and while Bradfords mutant design may isn't hat unqiue.. Xevers certainly is!

Yeah, Snakeweed doesn't have the biggest personality, I guess that was sort of the idea, he is just one of those monsters you can use when you need it. One of the "Stock." monsters, as well is Spiderbite and cockroach.

How-ever, what I do find sort of interesting about Snakeweed and Spiderbytes regardless is that we, the viewers, knows that they are people! we saw them being people. I do think it ads an interesting dimension, and I hope that the show has the guts to explore that one day.
It would be so easy to explore, you almost doesn't need any-thing more than having one of them mention his own origin.

The pure designs on them well.. i think the designs on Fish-face, Snakeweed and Cockroach is bloody awesome!
It's unique and vibrant, and kind of scary.

Dogpound falls a bit into the middle, we have seen monsters like him before, but he is still awesome, and I like that he is huge as a truck in fight, kind of adds a little Hun flair over him, in the way he just overshadows all of the turtles when he stands there.

Spiderbytes is.. erh.. well he certainly is unique in design, but yeah.. yeah it was an odd design choice.

And well, lets not forget Leatherhead, he is freaking awesome in this show, I love how huge he is, and I do admire the animators could manage to make him look that big and scary and that friendly and innocent on the same time.

Pigeon pete is.... interesting.

[Lord Nightwalker]

Honestly, The old toon isn't what got me hooked on the TMNT. It was the Mirage comics. So no, their sillyness didn't always go over so well with me. and Slash was about fifty tons cooler in the Archie comics series than in the old toon. Even so, I did like the pilot episode allot. I just wish it hadn't been dumbed down so much.

So far, as far as mutants go, it's a toss up for me. Fox had done realy well, and Nick has surprised me. I do think some of the Nick mutants should be a little more threatening, But so far so good.

But again, for me, the comics are aces.

[Loudo]

What are you talking about? Most humans ran away in fear when they saw mutants in the old show.
I think the correct sentence should be "In some episodes humans ran away in fear when they saw mutants in the old show."
It's full of episodes where the turtles don't even bother to disguise themselves. Anyway, beyond the point.

The Dark Turtles were more like... evil alien clones... it's not like they were ever actual pet Turtles....
If you're a clone of a mutant, you're by definition a mutant. XD

Slash's entire episode was about how he 'had a bad day' and had so much thrown at him the same day he was mutated. Even though Baxter was a different case, he spent most of the time getting revenge for being turned into a fly. He was probably the one with the most 'I'm a monster!!!' mindset you're reffering to.
Slash could have been an alien with temper problems, and nothing would have changed. Wait, he is in Archie comics! XD
Baxter is a fine example of the mutant thing done well. But not just because of the "I'm a monster" mindset.
He's a good mutant because everything changes for him after his mutation. He wanted to be a respected scientist and now his dream is crashed because he's become an hideous monster. You remove the mutation and you get a very different character (we've seen non-mutated Baxter and how different he is).

Another example of a bad mutant from the OT? Splinter.
Sure, he wants to be human again (for the first 10 or so episodes), but what would have changed had he been a human for the whole series? He was an outcast living in the sewers even when he was less hairy.
And it's not like we ever see him longing for human friends, or acceptance.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Baxter Stockman could have been human again, but I think the writers always wanted a cahcne for him to return again, as a fly-guy.

[Slade]

Yeah definently. Though I'm one who thinks the Justin mutant is stupid....

[miru]

So far, I like the toy-only mutants for the Nick show (just Newtralizer, the "wasp" might be cool.too) It's not like they deconfirmed Karai yet!

[CyberCubed]

It's full of episodes where the turtles don't even bother to disguise themselves. Anyway, beyond the point.

Most of the time they were in disguises, and when they weren't they were running through the crowds to catch up to Shredder or whomever. And when the public saw them they either felt threatened by them or were afraid of them.

Also keep in mind all of NYC was aware of the Turtles existence at the end of Season 1. Plenty of pedestrians call them out in the rest of the show.

Slash could have been an alien with temper problems, and nothing would have changed. Wait, he is in Archie comics! XD
Baxter is a fine example of the mutant thing done well. But not just because of the "I'm a monster" mindset.
He's a good mutant because everything changes for him after his mutation. He wanted to be a respected scientist and now his dream is crashed because he's become an hideous monster. You remove the mutation and you get a very different character (we've seen non-mutated Baxter and how different he is).

Uh, why would animal mutants who weren't humans prior feel like freaks? They simply became more intelligent. Leatherhead, the Frogs, Slash, Groundchuck/Dirtbag were just normal animals...so they should feel "gifted" that they were allowed to become intelligent. Even Dirtbag said something like, "Why can I speak? What is my purpose in life?"

Baxter considered himself a freak, and Bebop/Rocksteady were just humourous.

[Xav]

Didn't the "Uncanny Trio" from the Archie comics' want to get revenge on humans for turning them into intelligent mutants?

[Coola Yagami]

Most of the time they were in disguises, and when they weren't they were running through the crowds to catch up to Shredder or whomever. And when the public saw them they either felt threatened by them or were afraid of them.

Also keep in mind all of NYC was aware of the Turtles existence at the end of Season 1. Plenty of pedestrians call them out in the rest of the show.



The Turtles were also known heroes by seasons 3 and 4. I do believe by season 4 the average human in NYC would have to have been living under a rock to not know who the Turtles are. People would see them and be like 'you're one of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!'. They weren't 'stick to the shadows/world doesn't know we exist' in the OT and were more like traditional superheroes after a while.

People would always run from the evil mutants however. Of course, they would attack everything in sight and would never bother to disguise themselves.

[CyberCubed]

That's my problem with the Nick mutants, they may look cool, but their personalities either don't exist or are dull. It seems like Nick wants all their mutants to either be strong or creepy looking, but they don't make them endearing.

Bebop and Rocksteady looked good because they were well designed, but they were also sympathetic characters in the OT. Baxter, Leatherhead, Groundchuck and Dirtbag, Slash, etc. all have nice appearances.

[grungethemovie]

exactly
but maybe it's cause the nick series is still too short and too full of stuff
maybe given more time the characters will develop better
cause we know for a fact how the turtles, splinter, april (and bradford & xever) are really well-rounded characters

[ZariusTwo]

Well and truly biased because I'm writing a string of fanfics based on the old cartoon show, but yeah I prefer them. I'm just more comfortable with their world and corny sense of humor.

[ryukenden]

Looking back, no mutant even the ones in Mirage ever had the charm of Rocksteady and Bebop. I do however prefer Leatherhead being a good guy rather than the ragin' cajun he was in the OT.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Didn't the "Uncanny Trio" from the Archie comics' want to get revenge on humans for turning them into intelligent mutants?

You mean the one when they go to Innsmouth, Massachussetts?

[miru]

Well, the new epsiode had more mindless monster mutants.

[Lord Nightwalker]

No. I do not.

[magidkaiser]

I prefer the originals

[TurtleTitan97]

Didn't care much for the 4kids mutants, but I think the Nick ones are pretty cool.