To Anyone Who Likes Venus: Why?

[Konchadunga]

I'm not usually the type who points fingers and calls people out for not sharing my opinion, so I'll try to keep this as un-accusatory as possible...but I hate Venus; passionately. Much as I've come to disapprove of Peter Laird, and his decade of tyranny and exhaustive pessimism, I agree with him 100% on this point, and now that Laird's out of the spotlight, I've noticed an enormous amount of Venus fans coming out of the woodwork. Prompting me to ask again, why?

I gave The Next Mutation a fair chance, and up until Venus came into the story, I actually thought it was kind of funny (though a lot of the humor was unintentional and embarrassing), but this character was far worse than I could have expected. Simply put, Venus seems like an awful fancharacter some hack on DeviantArt invented. She's female, for no apparent reason than to add a female to the team, has breasts, for no apparent reason other than to emphasize that she's female, and most of all, she is absolutely the worst Mary-Sue I have ever seen in a for-profit work, and actually even worse than many Mary-Sues in fanfiction.

Let's look at her introduction; in a total of one episode, she beats up all the real turtles and hangs them from the ceiling, rewrites continuity to make the turtles not siblings, so a romance is possible (and as an aside, this is incredibly stupid, especially because it was unnecessary; they could have made the four males siblings and Venus unrelated), and defeats Shredder just by telling him to fight from the inside, so the creators could put an original villain in the show, too.

I may be prejudging her fandom, here, but I have to wonder if they're the same people who fawn over Turtlecest, and treat Donny X April as absolutely the most important thing in the 2012 series; in short, people who see a need to force excessive romance into an action-adventure-comedy series that never relied on it. Outside of potential for romance, what exactly did Venus add to the series? What is it that makes Kevin Eastman declare that he loves her, when in fact, the bulk of the fandom still agrees with Peter Laird on her?

[Bossa Nova]

I don't rightly know how to answer you on this as I am also not a Venus fan, but I CAN assure you that there is absolutely no correlation from what I've seen of the many many fans who enjoy tcest and/or Turtlexhuman pairings and liking Venus. Actually, I notice those fans who tend to like her also enjoy characters like Mona Lisa which makes more sense to me...they like female mutants being paired with the turtles. Fans who like tcest, well, there's not much of a need for a female turtle now is there, and those who like Turtlexhuman pretty much dig having human characters, so once again, not much need for a female turtle. Besides, as you said yourself, Venus is a flat 1-dimensional, supreme Mary Sue, and as much as you might not like romance in its other forms, not all romance has to be that shallow and boring. Depth and real characterization can take place in these other relationships which just seems much more challenging with a character like Venus.

[Avatar Yuffie]

It's most likely execution. Venus simply made a poor reception to the fans. The second mistake is making her a love interest instead of a sister. And then her Mary Sue-ness.

Ninjara is the new girl and Raph's girlfriend, but I really have yet to meet someone in this forum who rabidly hates her, even though Archie sadly didn't add much to her character (a sidestory about her Japanese family and other adventures before she met the Turtles would actually be nice IMHO). On the rare moments Ninjara and April are having girl talk, they failed the Bechdel test. I am actually glad because people nowadays are snorting on female characters for being "just love interests", and she pretty much escaped unscathed from that.

As for turtlecest, I think they became popular in 2k3, thanks to Leo and Raph's supposed UST (sure, 4Kids didn't mean to, but shippers really like subtext).

[pannoni1]

It provided a chance to show that a five-man band needs a chick and that it provides an extra Turtle to improve their chances of defeating the villains. Venus could have been an orphan who needed to be adopted, but I'm not a fan of these Mary Sues, with so many more questions than answers when written that make you feel lost about her.

[Coola Yagami]

It was simply a matter of FOX demanding 'either add a female turtle or else no new show', and Kevin not making a big deal out of it as much as Peter did. It's not so much that Kevin loves Venus. It's more of a 'shrugs shoulders' yeah sure why not? kinda thing.

[CyberCubed]

She's a terrible idea because she was on the main cast.

Even if she were a recurring character, its still terrible. Girl turtles with psychic powers...is awful.

[Jester]

Just to make sure you're not just being a sexist idiot: What are your feelings about a male Turtle with an incredible new ability to read Japanese?

[ToTheNines]

Next Mutation was awful, and would have been just as awful without her. Venus is the only reason why anyone still talks about TNM.

[Justin]

Next Mutation was crappy, Venus was crappy, the network that created it was crappy and the people whom like Venus make my brain go crappy.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I think Venus is one of those characters that should be reworked and retooled, similar to how Arcee was in TP. However, those of whom that don't want her in anything else ever may as well continue to believe that, seeing as how there is no interest amongst producers to use her besides one guy.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Kinda makes me wonder if Kirby was in TNM instead, and if people would hate him.

[sdp]

I like Venus.

Now there's a lot of misconceptions about Venus and many of them in your own post.

Why add a female turtle? Diversity, something new. The Turtles franchise was dead at this point and they thought this new extreme 90s version was going to get some of the popularity back.

TNM sucked because of Venus. No. TNM 'sucked' because it was a cheaply produced Saban AmeriToku show and it was extremely slapsticky.

Venus this...Venus that.. Many of these things are not even true. Making Venus a love interest is only implied in the first pilot and never again is it implied during the whole show. Her psychic powers and her being all that also only lasts during the pilot East meets West and in other episodes she isn't a broken character. This isn't that much different than when a new character appears in other shows and they're shown to be so much cooler than anything else we've done, this is especially done in shows like Power Rangers which Saban also made.

Ironically Venus is the best written character of TNM sans East meets West. Most of the fandom seems to just blame TNM on her or just because they have this precious idea of the turtles only being able to be 4. When I was a kid I welcomed the idea of a female turtle, now I don't really care and I'm glad there's only 4 but come on she is far from the worst character in the turtles franchise, way far. I'd love to see her and other TNM characters come back better written in a better show. I actually think most of the hate for Venus is uncalled for, you don't like the character? Ok, to each their own and there's definitely reasons why you might not like her but most of the negative things about Venus are just overblown nitpicks.

[ToTheNines]

Ironically Venus is the best written character of TNM sans East meets West.

Ha. A very good point. Most people can't stomach more than the introductory 5 parter and use it to judge the whole series.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I really wouldn't mind having a female fifth Turtle tbqh.

Like mooncalfe's (http://mooncalfe.deviantart.com/art/TMNT-Secrets-Of-The-Ooze-the-Turtles-friends-328133848) at least.

[CyberCubed]

The best episodes to come out of Next Mutation was the Vam Mi "Unchain my heart" 4-parter. Pretty much the only arc that wasn't entirely painful or dumbed down for kids.

There's also a surprising lot of cleavage in that episode from Vam Mi, especially when the actress bends down for a kids show. :o

[sdp]

Saban was never shy with their cleavage.

I actually didn't like the Vam Mi arc, thought it was boring though it did give us the best interpretation of Bonesteel. I don't remember very well but IIRC the Shredder episode at the end and the Good Dragon episode were the best episodes the show had.

[miru]

She's cute and reminds me of Blaze.

[Jester]

:dead::sick::tsick:She's cute and reminds me of Blaze.

[Cipher]

You know who I'm totally ambivalent about?

Venus.

Fifth Turtle? Whatever. Girl turtle? Fine. Venus specifically? Not a very good character, but hey, no one in that series was.

I'd be hypothetically interested in seeing a take on her one day that wasn't tied to something as awful as Next Mutation, but if that day never comes, I'm not clamoring for it either.

My only deep-set feeling about her concept is that we should never see breast-shaped carapaces again.

[VaughnMichael]

There are quite a few good or fun episodes in the next mutation.
I don't think it's all bad I quite like vami mi, bonesteel, and dr quease.

[Slade]

Guess I'll admit it. I'm not a fan of a female turtle at all. Or a 5th turtle that's a part of the team and as a kid I hated the fact that she came along and all of a sudden the 4 guys aren't brothers. :ohwell:

[ryukenden]

I'm not fond of Venus but I do believe she could have worked. Venus wasn't the problem, it was the show's execution. The show just went out of their way to make Venus look good while making the main Turtles look bad. I could write an entire article of when Venus took care of something herself in which the established Turtles could have, would have and should have charged in and helped out. But no! They either stand in the background cheering on or Venus took care of the problem before they even do anything. Even without Venus, the show would have still been awful.

Had the Turtles acted like we would expect them to act as we have seen in the OT and the Movies, the show would have been much better. The Five-Man Band aspect would have worked really well.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I'm by no means a Venus fan, and thinking of her does give me bad memories of Next Mutation - but I'd totally be open to seeing her re-interpreted in a new incarnation someday, something that would finally make her a likeable character perhaps. So I guess I'm middle ground, I don't hate her, but I'm by no means calling for her return either.

And on the Donnie/April thing mentioned in the first post, I don't like that pairing simply because it adds romance to a predominantly action/comedy series (though that is kind of a nice addition), I like it because the way they're handling it in the show is absolutely adorable. :P

[gobo]

I happen to think Venus was the only character in that series I could tolerate. Probably because she wasn't an over-the-top charicature.

[Pterobat]

I guess nobody likes Venus, including me....

But I'm fine with that. Even though any idea in fiction can be made palatable, the Turtles have had the same or very similar four-brothers dynamic in all media and all forms, so it would take one hell of a writer to pull off the changed dynamic that a new Turtle would bring, whether the new Turtle was male or female.

It's not about being hidebound to "tradition" so much as there's this "closed" dynamic of the four Turtles and how they interact with each other that it'd be hard to bring a new Turtle in and have everything go smoothly. TNM just wasn't up to snuff.

Also, I agree with Peter Laird, who seemed just as annoyed that a fifth Turtle was added as the fact that they were female:

http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.ca/2012/03/few-musings-on-turtles-as-aliens.html

I think some people make too big a deal over Venus being female, because they're attached to the melancholy notion of the Turtles as a reproductive "dead end", that was embodied in the original "Sons of the Silent Age" comic story. But it's just as awful that the writers can't think of any more creative role for a new character than "another Turtle".

A fifth male Turtle would be just as redundant, and even if he were a Laird creation like Kirby, it would still take some hard work to pull off.

If Venus had not been a "Fifth Turtle" but a new ally character of a different species, she might have gone over better. I don't believe in the notion of "female just for the sake of being female", since women are half the population and representing them in fiction shouldn't need "a reason" any more than having male characters would be. I'd like to see more female characters in the franchise, and more female mutants, but it has to be more creative than just adding a female Ninja Turtle.

Besides that, I haven't watched TNM since it aired, but Venus was annoying because her comic role was supposed to be the "dumb foreigner" who can't grasp another culture and keeps making the same dopey language mistakes. That kind of character is very hard to make likable, and I just found her annoying.

That her naming scheme didn't match the other Turtles stood out to me, too.

Also, she had turtle boobs. Which are creepy. I give this design a pass when it's human characters who have become non-mammals, but Venus as a full-blown reptile with turtle cleavage is disturbing.

[snake]

Never was a fan of Venus, and I can't see how people are, a female turtle CAN be done right ( I think) but Venus is an example of how NOT to do it. I think if she was done right, she would be a tolerable character, but for now, I hate her:)

[cryan]

I liked Mona Lisa more then the Venus character.

[ZariusTwo]

Venus just felt like the result of a focus group more than a truley creative aspect of the mythos.

[Konchadunga]

Ha. A very good point. Most people can't stomach more than the introductory 5 parter and use it to judge the whole series.

Guilty as charged. :toops:

However, so is Saban. A good first impression is very, very important, and it places the burden of proof squarely on the creators rather than the viewers. If they improved Venus from the pilot, well, good for them I guess, but their introduction of Venus was so incredibly bad that Occam's Razor didn't point that way.

[RaphAndDonnie]

Besides that, I haven't watched TNM since it aired, but Venus was annoying because her comic role was supposed to be the "dumb foreigner" who can't grasp another culture and keeps making the same dopey language mistakes. That kind of character is very hard to make likable, and I just found her annoying.
Agreed with this. I was watching an episode of TNM last week, and one of the
bits was Venus not getting the correct name for a bowling strike. Sure it made me chuckle the first time...but I was sick of it by the time she kept doing it when they went into combat. Also...the Asain accent. It was just so high pitched and whiny to me, ugh.

[Candy Kappa]

The idea of a female turtle is interesting, it adds something new to the status quo.

Venus, as the rest of the show was just badly handled, from mis-knowing the word Shinobi to being a straight up Mary Sue.

It's the concept that is appealing, not the character.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

I like Venus, in my turtle world she is very much still part of it, i have to agree with what most has been said Venus wasnt the down fall of next mutation it was bad writing..past the first story arc it just gets dull and overly slap stick.

i am open to a fith turtle and a girl turtle, what irked me most was the breaking of the brotherhood

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I have mixed feelings on Venus. On one hand. It was stupid to have a fifith female turtle, who was there at the time of the origin, who has 'supah mystical Shinobi powers', who beat all four of the other turtles at once, in five seconds, in the dark, off camera... and went on to be the mary sue-er, amin focus of the series.

On the other hand, I don't mind the idea of a fifth female mutant/anthro character hanging around the guys all the time, and going on most of thier adventures. Ninjara was awesome in the archie series, and I would've loved it if Mona Lisa had become an every episode mainstay in the OT, maybe taking up Mikey's grappling hook as a weapo, so he could get his nunchucks back, or at least weild a tonfa. The point why those two work is that they are not, turtles, and not created at the same accident the turtles were.

Although one thing I gotta ask, Mondo Gecko in the ot basically had the same origin as venus (Mutated at the same time as the TMNT, by the same accident with the same ooze) why don't people hate him?

[plasticturtle]

Probably because Mondo wasn't shoehorned into every single episode that aired after his introduction. If Venus had just made random guest appearances every once in awhile maybe she'd be more tolerable.

[ryukenden]

I don't understand why she had to prove her superiority by defeating and humiliating the Turtles when she first stepped into the lair. What they could have done was the Turtles detecting the intruder and rush to the entrance weapons drawn as Venus formally introduces herself. If she did go for the aggressive approach, the Turtles ought to be distrustful and not let themselves get hanged there like idiots.

[Konchadunga]

I hear a lot that a female turtle isn't an inherently stupid idea, but the question is, would it add anything that a smarter, tougher April couldn't? That's a better solution to have a feminist angle, in my opinion, because then that angle doesn't monopolize the plot; April is a surface-dweller.

[Nameless]

I actually liked The next mutation, mind you not as much as the original cartoon. The biggest thing that bugged me, which others have said, is the fact that the turtles are no longer brothers.

Venus as an added character was alright but she needed to have a different personality. To me she always felt like another Splinter. A thing that kinda of took away from Leonardos character as he is the one that quotes splinter and sticks to splinters teachings to a letter.

I dunno i feel the show had great potential, but missed the great mark largely due to the Venus but also for a lot of different little things. the funniest thing is that the best fight scene of the series is in the crossover episode with the power rangers.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I hear a lot that a female turtle isn't an inherently stupid idea, but the question is, would it add anything that a smarter, tougher April couldn't? That's a better solution to have a feminist angle, in my opinion, because then that angle doesn't monopolize the plot; April is a surface-dweller.

While I do agree that a female turtle is a bad idea, I don't think a female mutant/anthro is. Ninjara and Mona Lisa were both amazing characters, and I'd have no problem seeing ethier becoming a permanent addition to the TMNT's team in the 5th turtle role. Heck Ninjara was almost that anyway in Archie. April can be built up too, but I'd also love see one of these two become a main character.

[ssjup81]

I liked her because of the magical aspect. I also liked that she was a girl. I didn't know her character was so disliked until coming here.

[Konchadunga]

Cody Jones is disliked for a lot of the same reason as Venus; that is, he became the center of the plot, so I'm not sure if Venus or a similar character would go over well, even if written better. Still, if a show gets to the point where all of the plots involving the existing character dynamic seem exhausted, then maybe it's not a bad idea.

[ObiWanFan4life]

Hey there, im new to this site and i'm a HUGE fan of TMNT, however i cannot stand Venus De Milo or the next mutation, so i was surprised finding out that this character gas a fanbase that will defend her. WHY? what is there to defend about her?

1. She has no redeemable character traits whatsoever

2.She was tacked on the show in order to appease whiny feminists

3. She constantly had the REAL turtles depend on her to win their battles
Does that sound like a defendable character? You tell me

[Shreddhead]

First of all, Welcome to the Drome! However, you should really take some time to familiarize yourself with the site. For instance I see you've made a duplicate thread here in the introduction section. Thats fine if you just wanna introduce yourself, but youre diving into a whole other category with this Venus talk. Second of all, there is already a pretty well established thread about your topic:
http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=41845

Use the Search feature, browse through some of the categories and add relative posts before jumping in and starting your own threads. Because we're all big TMNT fans here and odds are someone else feels the same way you do, but got here first :twink:

[ObiWanFan4life]

Thx. i'll look into it

[ObiWanFan4life]

Hey there, i'm new to this site and i feel EXACTLY the way you do about her, i can understand how some people find the idea of a 5th Female turtle to be Adequete( sry if i mispell) but i'm not one of 'em and i will never understand what's to like about her.

[Konchadunga]

Maybe some people like the idea of a magical character, or feel every action hero team needs a female. I always wanted an action girl in the Fred Wolf show, but somehow, I never considered her being a turtle. My brother and I always used to talk about creating a fifth turtle, and we pictured a male with a gun--not exactly a ninja weapon, but back then we didn't really know what a ninja was.

[ObiWanFan4life]

Maybe some people like the idea of a magical character, or feel every action hero team needs a female. I always wanted an action girl in the Fred Wolf show, but somehow, I never considered her being a turtle. My brother and I always used yo talk about creating a fifth turtle, and we pictured a male with a gun--not exactly a ninja weapon, but back then we didn't really know what a ninja was.

That's what APRIL was for!.In the Comics april o neil was a strong-willed and resourceful ally to the turtles,so in some ways she was the unofficial 5th Turtle of the group.Same goes for Casey Jones.Venus on the other hand was an Underdeveloped,Overpowered and ultimately useless Wannabe.

[Candy Kappa]

1. She has no redeemable character traits whatsoever
Sure she had, in the context of the show, she was the only turtle that wasn't a complete idiot.

2.She was tacked on the show in order to appease whiny feminists
uh.. No.
3. She constantly had the REAL turtles depend on her to win their battles
Does that sound like a defendable character? You tell me

Except, she took out the turtles single handedly and defeated Shredder.

Welcome to the forums.

[ObiWanFan4life]

Sure she had, in the context of the show, she was the only turtle that wasn't a complete idiot.


uh.. No.


Except, she took out the turtles single handedly and defeated Shredder.

Welcome to the forums.

My Apologies, #2 I meant that FOX forcedEastman/Laird to Put her in the show or it wouldn't be made. And while i'm on the topic of Venus not being a complete Idiot, Why was SHE the only competent turtle on the team? And WHY do Venus call Peter Laird "Sexist" for getting rid of her?

Who can blame the guy, she was a HORRENDOUS Character, If they wanted a FIFTH Member to the group so badly why not replace venus with APRIL or CASEY.

[Anarchistguy]

The thing that bugged me the most about Venus is the whole: "I'm not a ninja, I'm a shinobi" crap

[Candy Kappa]

which made it all the more hilarious with what Shinobi really is

[ObiWanFan4life]

which made it all the more hilarious with what Shinobi really is
That Brings me to ANOTHER thing that Pisses me off about Venus so much. She constantly plays the "i'm a foriegner so i don't know certian american terms". It would have been fine if they did it once or twice,but no she mixes up American Slang almost every F*CKING Episode which made it annoying as hell.

[ObiWanFan4life]

In FACT, it was NEVER funny or amusing to BEGIN With for that matter.

[ObiWanFan4life]

That Brings me to ANOTHER thing that Pisses me off about Venus so much. She constantly plays the "i'm a foriegner so i don't know certian american terms". It would have been fine if they did it once or twice,but no she mixes up American Slang almost EVERY Episode which made it annoying as hell.

Pardon my bad language:( It just really bothers me.

[Candy Kappa]

you can edit your own post btw, so you don't have too make several post after your own post

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

Guess I'll admit it. I'm not a fan of a female turtle at all. Or a 5th turtle that's a part of the team and as a kid I hated the fact that she came along and all of a sudden the 4 guys aren't brothers. :ohwell:

They were raised as brothers, but they've never been confirmed to be biological brothers in any interpretation that I can't remember.

My only deep-set feeling about her concept is that we should never see breast-shaped carapaces again.

I LOVE me some breast-shaped carapaces... :tcool: I want that to be my next username, ***Breast-Shaped Carapaces***

[Bossa Nova]

So, granted I've never actually watched NM, but when people are saying the turtles are 'no longer brothers', what exactly does that mean? Because going through this thread I seem to get the vibe that some folks feel like just because they are (what I presume to be) revealed as not being biologically related, that somehow their brotherhood is no longer "real"? What in the world does being biologically related have to do with being real brothers?

[Konchadunga]

They were raised as brothers, but they've never been confirmed to be biological brothers in any interpretation that I can't remember.

No, and even the official Mirage site answered that question with similar ambiguity, but as I said, the way they explicitly stated it in TNM was very stupid, for the following reasons:
1) Occam's Razor. If there's a bunch of turtles in the same tank at a pet store, chances are high that they're the same litter.
2) Of course, things could be otherwise, but how the shell would the turtles know that? Nobody would be likely to have told a bunch of pet turtles they were from different litters, and even if they had, it wouldn't have meant anything to pre-mutation turtles.
3) As I mentioned, they didn't have to say the four turtles were unrelated; Venus could have been mutated separately, and as such, not related; it also would not have created a plot hole next to two existing flashbacks explicitly showing four, not five, turtles.

Naturally, this series is no stranger to stupidity and inconsistency, and all of that might be a non-issue, except that again, it's a massive amount of continuity welding done solely in the name of a new character, with just about everything else around her being unapologetically klutzy and flattering already.

[Jephael]

Good Lord, how many friggin times are we gonna bring up Venus? It's like mentioning your sister's ex-boyfriend at Thanksgiving in front of her inlaws!

[Konchadunga]

This should be water under the bridge, but as of late, we've got lots of forgotten elements of TMNT series coming back, and Kevin Eastman saying he loves Venus, not to mention an outpouring of fan support, meaning there's a chance this character will come back. If much of the fandom still hates her, now is a good time to speak up.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

i have to ask, what is the big issue with liking Venus? i grew up with the original toon,movies, and comics and still like Venus, does that make me less of a fan or remove my fan credentials?

[Metropoliskid41]

Jeesh the longer the thread goes on and he more new posts I see, the more tempted I am to pick up the New Mutation dvd, just to remember how truly awful Venus and that series was. So far Once been able to block out most of my memories from that show...I fear that my blissful ignorance is in jeopardy....must resist urge to buy Next Mutation :P

[Gwydion]

So, granted I've never actually watched NM, but when people are saying the turtles are 'no longer brothers', what exactly does that mean? Because going through this thread I seem to get the vibe that some folks feel like just because they are (what I presume to be) revealed as not being biologically related, that somehow their brotherhood is no longer "real"? What in the world does being biologically related have to do with being real brothers?
If I'm remembering correctly (take this with a grain of salt as I've only seen the first two episodes since I first watched it on TV years ago), Venus shows up and tells them she was mutated at the same time they were. As pretty much all the guys are interested in her from the get go and clearly don't want her to think of them as her siblings, Leo just blurts out, "Oh, we're not actually brothers."

Does not being blood related bother me? Not at all, but the way it was done felt like he was throwing their brother status under the bus just so she wouldn't lose interest. It was just a poorly written reveal, which isn't too surprising, frankly.

As for Venus herself, I'll admit I'm definitely not one of her fans, for a lot of the reasons already brought up - I was never a huge fan of the "permanent 5th member" thing, turtle or not - but I can see why people see potential in her character.

[Nameless]

In the TMNT movie interpretation it is stated that they are brothers. or at the very least Mikey and Don are half brothers.

After fighting the monster Mikey says something to the effect that the monster looked like Don's Mom. Don retorts back that "that would be his mom too".

[Konchadunga]

Jeesh the longer the thread goes on and he more new posts I see, the more tempted I am to pick up the New Mutation dvd, just to remember how truly awful Venus and that series was. So far Once been able to block out most of my memories from that show...I fear that my blissful ignorance is in jeopardy....must resist urge to buy Next Mutation :P

The good news is that it's now back on TV, so you can satisfy your curiosity without donating to an evil cause. Seriously, with Kevin Eastman admitting he loves Venus and the show being seen as legitimate enough to air again, I suspect buying this will convince them to bring her back.

[RaphAndDonnie]

Jeesh the longer the thread goes on and he more new posts I see, the more tempted I am to pick up the New Mutation dvd, just to remember how truly awful Venus and that series was. So far Once been able to block out most of my memories from that show...I fear that my blissful ignorance is in jeopardy....must resist urge to buy Next Mutation :P

Do you get the Hub? I suggest watching it there on Satudays instead of buying a DVD you're probably only going to watch like, once or twice.

[ObiWanFan4life]

i have to ask, what is the big issue with liking Venus? i grew up with the original toon,movies, and comics and still like Venus, does that make me less of a fan or remove my fan credentials?
Not at all, it's just that venus is one of if not the most HATED characters in all of TMNT fandom, and for good reasons too. But Venus is not the casuse of Next Mutation's shortcomings' she is not the MAIN problem. The problem came from the fact that FOX KIDS interfered too much with the final product and made the show way too dumbed down for kids
w

[Metropoliskid41]

Do you get the Hub? I suggest watching it there on Satudays instead of buying a DVD you're probably only going to watch like, once or twice.

I do get the Hub, I didn't realize they were re-airing it on there, I may have to rewatch an episode or two just to refresh my memory on how truly awful it was. *shudders*

[ObiWanFan4life]

I do get the Hub, I didn't realize they were re-airing it on there, I may have to rewatch an episode or two just to refresh my memory on how truly awful it was. *shudders*

Well look at it this way, it makes you appreciate the new show more

[ryukenden]

It's on NetFlix. GI Joe: A Real American Hero and G1 Transformers is on it as well as the decent followups such as Beast Wars, Renegades and Prime are on it too. If those are on NetFlix, the OT and the 2K3 series should too.

Aside from the Turtles not acting like they should, I don't think anybody liked the iconic bandanas being replaced with do-rags and Mexican wrestler masks. In Raph's case, a tattered rag. Venus's braided ponytail style would be acceptable in the event of normal bandanas. I always did like them long like in the movies.

[ObiWanFan4life]

Watched it on NetFlix, Shut it off after ONE EPISODE. Jesus the costumes from the CHRISTMAS SPECIAL looked better than the ones here. And the terrible dubbing/voice acting makes it SOOOO much worse.:x

[Nameless]

Watched it on NetFlix, Shut it off after ONE EPISODE. Jesus the costumes from the CHRISTMAS SPECIAL looked better than the ones here. And the terrible dubbing/voice acting makes it SOOOO much worse.:x

O man Please don't mention the Xmas special that thing still gives me nightmares.

[ObiWanFan4life]

O man Please don't mention the Xmas special that thing still gives me nightmares.
Oh sorry.:(

[ryukenden]

Watched it on NetFlix, Shut it off after ONE EPISODE. Jesus the costumes from the CHRISTMAS SPECIAL looked better than the ones here. And the terrible dubbing/voice acting makes it SOOOO much worse.:x

Sorry, but I beg to differ. The costumes in that horrid special were not even complete and they were obviously falling apart. They wore freaking socks! I'm not even going to get started on the faces. :sick:

The TNM suits are not the greatest but at least they held on together. Except of course for the hardly concealed eyeholes underneath the bandana's er do rags.

[ObiWanFan4life]

Sorry, but I beg to differ. The costumes in that horrid special were not even complete and they were obviously falling apart. They wore freaking socks! I'm not even going to get started on the faces. :sick:

The TNM suits are not the greatest but at least they held on together. Except of course for the hardly concealed eyeholes underneath the bandana's er do rags.

Ok maybe i over exaggerated a bit, but they were still among the worst

[Plasticplayhouse]

I do get the Hub, I didn't realize they were re-airing it on there, I may have to rewatch an episode or two just to refresh my memory on how truly awful it was. *shudders*

dont waste your time. i watched several eps on netflix and killed more brain cells than if i drank a quart of everclear. i LOVE tmnt...i do, and i sit through a LOT of bad movies just to see the end, but i couldnt stomach the next mutation. it was that rediculous.



for me, I never liked venus. I grew up with 4 brother turtles and ninja master who's a rat. The 5th turtle idea as a whole is bad. The only 5th turtle that I liked was slash in the IDW comics. His story was well fleshed out and made sense. Tokka was meh, venus, and Kirby were both atrocious. The whole magical powers seemed very "power rangery" to me. I have no problem with female characters. April, karai...i love them! If aloplex or any of the new IDW mutants were female, I'd be cool with it. venus though was just a bad from the start.

[ObiWanFan4life]

dont waste your time. i watched several eps on netflix and killed more brain cells than if i drank a quart of everclear. i LOVE tmnt...i do, and i sit through a LOT of bad movies just to see the end, but i couldnt stomach the next mutation. it was that rediculous.



for me, I never liked venus. I grew up with 4 brother turtles and ninja master who's a rat. The 5th turtle idea as a whole is bad. The only 5th turtle that I liked was slash in the IDW comics. His story was well fleshed out and made sense. Tokka was meh, venus, and Kirby were both atrocious. The whole magical powers seemed very "power rangery" to me. I have no problem with female characters. April, karai...i love them! If aloplex or any of the new IDW mutants were female, I'd be cool with it. venus though was just a bad from the start.
Amen to that

[ssjup81]

I still don't get the Venus hate. I liked her a lot, but the show as a whole probably wasn't very well-executed. I find Venus' character no more contrived than Mondo Gecko, for example. Well OT origin anyway.

I loved the magical aspect, as i was always a fan of it. I love that they introduced the other word for ninja, "shinobi". Of course, it doesn't mean female ninja, but meh. I liked the mature aspect of her character. I liked the fact she was female too.

And I guess I'm the odd one. I always viewed the main four as "family" but not in the blood sense. More like a clan sense and Splinter as an adoptive father as well as master to them, but would definitely defend one another through thick and thin.

IMO, Venus should've been given a better chance or more of one. Worse enough that a great character like Mona Lisa was dropped at the toss of a hat. I would like to see more female mutant characters for the guys to hang with or be friends with. Even Ninjara, though not a mutant, would be nice to see in a medium outside of Archie.

[ObiWanFan4life]

I still don't get the Venus hate. I liked her a lot, but the show as a whole probably wasn't very well-executed. I find Venus' character no more contrived than Mondo Gecko, for example. Well OT origin anyway.

I loved the magical aspect, as i was always a fan of it. I love that they introduced the other word for ninja, "shinobi". Of course, it doesn't mean female ninja, but meh. I liked the mature aspect of her character. I liked the fact she was female too.

And I guess I'm the odd one. I always viewed the main four as "family" but not in the blood sense. More like a clan sense and Splinter as an adoptive father as well as master to them, but would definitely defend one another through thick and thin.

IMO, Venus should've been given a better chance or more of one. Worse enough that a great character like Mona Lisa was dropped at the toss of a hat. I would like to see more female mutant characters for the guys to hang with or be friends with. Even Ninjara, though not a mutant, would be nice to see in a medium outside of Archie. PROBABLY wasn't executed very well?, NOTHING in that show was salvageable(excluding Scott mcniel) and what's to like about magic in a show that WASN'T BASED on magic

[ObiWanFan4life]

Unless this was Harry Potter(which this is NOT btw) a magic based character feels out of place

[ObiWanFan4life]

Also, why did the producers feel the need to make a girl turtle and make her a permanent member of the team? Even if she wasn't a love interest, given better dialogue,and made into a moreolerable character, she would still have one major flaw: The existencd of a 5th turtle would raise questions that destroy your spension of disbelief. Overall, Venus de Milo is a pretty lame character, in concept AND execution . And i NEVER want to see her again

[AnarkyLantern]

I don't like NM much- it's the live action movies blended with power rangers, more or less. The "we're not biologically related" I blame for turtlecest- I love slash but not cest.

I picture Venus as a gen 2 turtle- maybe the daughter of Raph and Mona Lisa, which is why she's named after art.

[ObiWanFan4life]

I don't like NM much- it's the live action movies blended with power rangers, more or less. The "we're not biologically related" I blame for turtlecest- I love slash but not cest.

I picture Venus as a gen 2 turtle- maybe the daughter of Raph and Mona Lisa, which is why she's named after art.

But
WHY?

[AnarkyLantern]

But
WHY?

Slash or Venus? :tlol: I think, like everything about tnm, the execution was poor- overblown "men are from mars, women are from Venus" patter. And I get why she shouldn't be in the present canon. Total next gen, if that. The TMNT are named after renaissance artists- a naming scheme that Venus lacks but it makes more sense if she was Mona Lisa's daughter.

[Candy Kappa]

Not really, an artwork is also named Mona Lisa.

If there ever gonna be a female mutant turtle in TMNT franchise ever again, she should have a name after an Renaissance artist. Like Artemisia.

[gobo]

Not really, an artwork is also named Mona Lisa.
That's why it would make sense though.

[ObiWanFan4life]

Still like i said, Venus De Milo is a lame wannabe who has NO place in turtles lore.

[Shreddhead]

Not really, an artwork is also named Mona Lisa.

If there ever gonna be a female mutant turtle in TMNT franchise ever again, she should have a name after an Renaissance artist. Like Artemisia.

Ahh Leo, Mike, Don, Raph, and Art.... just rolls right off the tongue.

[ObiWanFan4life]

Seriously, why do people defend Venus? Sure the idea of a 5th female turtle is interesting but it disrupts the established continuity of there being 4 turtles. Maybe if she was from another dimension and a recurring character, but she just doesn't work as a permanent member of the team.

[Candy Kappa]

after a while status quo is gonna be changed, especially in a world where characters do grow. after a while the "hiding in shadows way from humanity" will be redundant. Introducing a new character will make some new changes, like aliens making a public appearance and integration with the human population giving the turtles the ability to pose as aliens and walk top-side in the open.

Ahh Leo, Mike, Don, Raph, and Art.... just rolls right off the tongue.

http://mooncalfe.deviantart.com/art/TMNT-Secrets-Of-The-Ooze-the-Turtles-friends-328133848?q=gallery%3Amooncalfe%2F24484975&qo=21

[BabyTurtles]

Ahh Leo, Mike, Don, Raph, and Art.... just rolls right off the tongue.


how bout Leo, Mikey, Donnie, Raph, and Arty :D

[Luigiperps]

I don't want Venus in nick, even if done right, it ruins the point of turtles
To quote 2k7 Raph, "We live together, we train together, we fight together, we stand for good together. We are ninjas. We strike hard, defend and protect, and fade into the night. And there ain't no bad guy or monster that's gonna ever change that. That's what is important. And that's why we will always be brothers." That would not work if they were not raised together, which Venus would have been. Like in that what if thread with the turtles not growing up together, that's what Venus is.

[Konchadunga]

I would like some help with something. I read somewhere that when Laird bought the series all out, he posted on the website an official announcement that from then on they would disregard Venus's existence, but I haven't been able to find that with the Wayback machine. Does anyone have it?

[AnarkyLantern]

I don't want Venus in nick, even if done right, it ruins the point of turtles
To quote 2k7 Raph, "We live together, we train together, we fight together, we stand for good together. We are ninjas. We strike hard, defend and protect, and fade into the night. And there ain't no bad guy or monster that's gonna ever change that. That's what is important. And that's why we will always be brothers." That would not work if they were not raised together, which Venus would have been. Like in that what if thread with the turtles not growing up together, that's what Venus is.

That's why I have her as a gen 2 concept.

[ObiWanFan4life]

That's why I have her as a gen 2 concept.

That makes the original 4 not special anymore

[ryukenden]

That makes the original 4 not special anymore

That's exactly what Next Mutation became. In the words of the Rowdy Reviewer when it came to the final episode, it showed that they need her more than she needs them. Talk about a Shell Shock!

[AnarkyLantern]

That's exactly what Next Mutation became. In the words of the Rowdy Reviewer when it came to the final episode, it showed that they need her more than she needs them. Talk about a Shell Shock!

I'm finally watching tnm's full run, mostly when I'm doing stuff in the kitchen... My impression is it's crap but I have seen plenty of cheesy comics characters updated well. I do think a literal 5th turtle in the original team is as much a distortion as the turtles being aliens- hence gen 2 in my mind, tnm never happened but in the years after the ot, Raph and Mona had Venus. In terms of her ability on tnm, the impression I get is she's less of a fighter and more of a mystic. The problem is, the main villain is mystic as well. So her abilities get amplified but given wht I've seen, and when this show was made, female warriors were more cerebral, gymnasts and such. It's only with things like Avatar and Kim Possible that you see it flipped with full-on female powerhouses.

[ObiWanFan4life]

I'm finally watching tnm's full run, mostly when I'm doing stuff in the kitchen... My impression is it's crap but I have seen plenty of cheesy comics characters updated well. I do think a literal 5th turtle in the original team is as much a distortion as the turtles being aliens- hence gen 2 in my mind, tnm never happened but in the years after the ot, Raph and Mona had Venus. In terms of her ability on tnm, the impression I get is she's less of a fighter and more of a mystic. The problem is, the main villain is mystic as well. So her abilities get amplified but given wht I've seen, and when this show was made, female warriors were more cerebral, gymnasts and such. It's only with things like Avatar and Kim Possible that you see it flipped with full-on female powerhouses.

It wouldn't matter if she was 1st or 2nd Generation, she would still have a poor reception

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

It wouldn't matter if she was 1st or 2nd Generation, she would still have a poor reception

you don't know that, thats an opinion not fact, venus can be liked by anyone whether they are new or old fan

[ObiWanFan4life]

you don't know that, thats an opinion not fact, venus can be liked by anyone whether they are new or old fan

Actually i do, Venus De Milo is one of the most detested characters in all of TMNT fandom, and justifiably so. The very 1st time wee see Venus in the next mutation she manages to:
1. Casually beat up the ORIGINAL turtles by HERSELF and hang them by their feet
2. Undo the Turtle's brotherly dynamic in favor of making her a potential love interest (though this is undone by the 3rd Episode)
3. Defeat The Shredder AGAIN BY HERSELF WITHOUT THE AID OF THE TURTLES by using cheap jedi mind tricks(wtf) and tells him to fight the evil inside him (AGAIN wtf).
Even Peter Laird saw how bad she was and retconned her from the franchise. And WHO can blame him? if so why?

[ObiWanFan4life]

So there's that

[gobo]

If Venus was introduced in the original 'toon, she'd get less bashing. I still think she was the only tolerable character in that series. Saban's writers turned the guys into the three stooges + Shemp. Venus was just the poster-child of all that change happening at once.

[ObiWanFan4life]

If Venus was introduced in the original 'toon, she'd get less bashing. I still think she was the only tolerable character in that series. Saban's writers turned the guys into the three stooges + Shemp. Venus was just the poster-child of all that change happening at once.

Why did they think that was a good idea

[gobo]

Demystifying The Bermuda Triangle might be easier. :trazz:

[ObiWanFan4life]

Demystifying The Bermuda Triangle might be easier. :trazz:

What does that even mean:-?

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

That makes the original 4 not special anymore

For what, being a mutant Turtle? If so, Slash, Tokka, and that Terrapin monster from Mirage beat her to it. :lol:

[Nameless]

For what, being a mutant Turtle? If so, Slash, Tokka, and that Terrapin monster from Mirage beat her to it. :lol:

Also Hans and Fitz, and pretty much every Turtle on Shell-Ri-La and the plant of the turtles, beat her to the giant talking turtle part as well (just not mutant).

[gobo]

What does that even mean:-?
I mean that solving ancient mysteries is a more rewarding waste of time than attributing reason to obviously unreasonable decisions. Rage on if you want though.

[Wildcat]

I didnt read every reply just page 1.

Im currently watching Next Mutation on HUB. I DVR it every weekend. I never saw any back in the day. I wanna finish it for the sake of it and also to form my own opinion of it. Not just every internet fan saying its crap over and over.

So far I think its ok. I'll agree its the weakest turtle show but its not because of Venus. And its certainly not the horrific abomination so many fans say it is. Its dumb because overall the writing is generic and the turtles come off as silly theme park characters. Especially Mikey. They reduced him to a wise cracking, joke-crazy baffoon.

Venus was actually the best written character. Her only comedic aspect is when she misinterprets american culture. There is nothing wrong with a 5th, female turtle. Just should have given her a better origin. Thats where the hate comes from, her being an extra turtle that just happened to get separated and happened to go unnoticed.

[ObiWanFan4life]

I didnt read every reply just page 1.

Im currently watching Next Mutation on HUB. I DVR it every weekend. I never saw any back in the day. I wanna finish it for the sake of it and also to form my own opinion of it. Not just every internet fan saying its crap over and over.

So far I think its ok. I'll agree its the weakest turtle show but its not because of Venus. And its certainly not the horrific abomination so many fans say it is. Its dumb because overall the writing is generic and the turtles come off as silly theme park characters. Especially Mikey. They reduced him to a wise cracking, joke-crazy baffoon.

Venus was actually the best written character. Her only comedic aspect is when she misinterprets american culture. There is nothing wrong with a 5th, female turtle. Just should have given her a better origin. Thats where the hate comes from, her being an extra turtle that just happened to get separated and happened to go unnoticed.
What origin would you give her

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

What origin would you give her

dude whats it matter to you people can like Venus, and Next mutation

[ObiWanFan4life]

dude whats it matter to you people can like Venus, and Next mutation

Didn't you read my reply on the last page

[Wildcat]

@ Turtles2k12, The origin Id give Venus would be something like the mutagen somehow came in contact with her through other means and the turtles obviously take her in as part of the group.

Maybe some mutagen travels through the sewer and comes in contact with a turtle out at sea. Or maybe there were already some experiments being done on animals at the time and they meet through battle all these years later. Hey thatd be an interesting origin for a live action Bebop and Rocksteady.

Don't hold any of this against me, Im just throwing out ideas. Anything would be more creative than "oh ya there was a 5th turtle that I totally forgot about and got separated".

[Nameless]

@ Turtles2k12, The origin Id give Venus would be something like the mutagen somehow came in contact with her through other means and the turtles obviously take her in as part of the group.

Maybe some mutagen travels through the sewer and comes in contact with a turtle out at sea. Or maybe there were already some experiments being done on animals at the time and they meet through battle all these years later. Hey thatd be an interesting origin for a live action Bebop and Rocksteady.

Don't hold any of this against me, Im just throwing out ideas. Anything would be more creative than "oh ya there was a 5th turtle that I totally forgot about and got separated".

Actually that might help opinion a bit because then she wouldn't have a chance of being related to the turtles and the 4 can be brothers again.

[ObiWanFan4life]

Oh no it's a fine backstory. Hell of a lot better than what Saban came up with.

[miru]

What origin would you give her

Raph's turtle, Spike, is mutated. Or she could be April.

[Avatar Yuffie]

She was separated from the guys during mutation and they meeet up and became a family. It was done in IDW.

[Falconhood]

Because she's a GIRL!

[BabyTurtles]

At first I was indifferent toward her...(cause I never saw an episode)

but now I kinda don't like her......she kicked all their butts.......XD.....easily......idk..that doesn't sit well with me.

edit: watched more...

she can read minds!!! 0_0.....she's kinda mary sue-ish...

[Falconhood]

well, with 5 members, they can be Sentai, and have a megazord with 5 zords...too bad they never exploited that.

[shreddinghead]

I think venus was to much 'science can't explain everything, magic is the way' for my taste.

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

To summarize my own thoughts regarding Venus, I have nothing against the concept. The execution was something else entirely.

[Blade Raider]

well, with 5 members, they can be Sentai, and have a megazord with 5 zords...too bad they never exploited that.
Either you're being sarcastic or ignorant. There are 3 man Sentai and not every Megazord is made up of 5 zords. Heck, the Power Rangers the Turtles met had a main Megazord made up of only two zords. The Turtles even hijacked said Megazord.



On topic
Why I don't hate (nor like) Venus comes down to the Next Mutation versions of the Turtles being sexist assholes. These characters are completely unlikable. They're greedy, negative, sexist, and lazy. It's like someone took all the negative parts of teenagers that Power Rangers left out and made them into turtles. They are terrible people and the show treats them as heroes. Venus is not the worst part of Next Mutation, these dicks are.

Venus herself is just kind of bland. Nothing special that isn't forced (she has a gimmick, boobs! And magic! Magic boobs!). She's not bad, just not good either. Of all the awfulness in this show, she's somewhere in the middle with the best being the awesome that is Bonesteal and the worst being the original turtles being turned into unlikeable douchebags.

[Nameless]

Either you're being sarcastic or ignorant. There are 3 man Sentai and not every Megazord is made up of 5 zords. Heck, the Power Rangers the Turtles met had a main Megazord made up of only two zords. The Turtles even hijacked said Megazord.



On topic
Why I don't hate (nor like) Venus comes down to the Next Mutation versions of the Turtles being sexist assholes. These characters are completely unlikable. They're greedy, negative, sexist, and lazy. It's like someone took all the negative parts of teenagers that Power Rangers left out and made them into turtles. They are terrible people and the show treats them as heroes. Venus is not the worst part of Next Mutation, these dicks are.

Venus herself is just kind of bland. Nothing special that isn't forced (she has a gimmick, boobs! And magic! Magic boobs!). She's not bad, just not good either. Of all the awfulness in this show, she's somewhere in the middle with the best being the awesome that is Bonesteal and the worst being the original turtles being turned into unlikeable douchebags.

Good old Bonesteel. He Had my Favourite one liner ever.
"Close. But close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades.... Knew i should have brought those grenades."

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Good old Bonesteel. He Had my Favourite one liner ever.
"Close. But close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades.... Knew i should have brought those grenades."

Now see, I love the Next Mutation villians. I wouldn't mind seeing Dragon lord, Bonesteel, Vam-mi, or Silver the Yeti ganster again. :D

[ObiWanFan4life]

Agreed. Scott Mcniel was the ONLY tolerable thing about TNM.

[ryukenden]

Why I don't hate (nor like) Venus comes down to the Next Mutation versions of the Turtles being sexist assholes. These characters are completely unlikable. They're greedy, negative, sexist, and lazy. It's like someone took all the negative parts of teenagers that Power Rangers left out and made them into turtles. They are terrible people and the show treats them as heroes. Venus is not the worst part of Next Mutation, these dicks are.

It is certainly the most painful when we realize these guys are not the Heroes in a Half-Shell that we loved from the OT and the Movies. The idiot ball would get passed around in the OT but it got ridiculous here. Take the lottery ticket episode for example, made no sense. If Venus was supposed to be the only sane Turtle, surely she would have called out that they can't cash it in since they are mutant turtles. Even Mikey ought to know better.

[ObiWanFan4life]

Either you're being sarcastic or ignorant. There are 3 man Sentai and not every Megazord is made up of 5 zords. Heck, the Power Rangers the Turtles met had a main Megazord made up of only two zords. The Turtles even hijacked said Megazord.



On topic
Why I don't hate (nor like) Venus comes down to the Next Mutation versions of the Turtles being sexist assholes. These characters are completely unlikable. They're greedy, negative, sexist, and lazy. It's like someone took all the negative parts of teenagers that Power Rangers left out and made them into turtles. They are terrible people and the show treats them as heroes. Venus is not the worst part of Next Mutation, these dicks are.

Venus herself is just kind of bland. Nothing special that isn't forced (she has a gimmick, boobs! And magic! Magic boobs!). She's not bad, just not good either. Of all the awfulness in this show, she's somewhere in the middle with the best being the awesome that is Bonesteal and the worst being the original turtles being turned into unlikeable douchebags.

Agreed, the biggest sin this show commits(aside from the fact it exists) is completely butchering the turtles personality. Venus is bad, but these guys are just as bad, if not MORE SO