New Star Wars Cartoon: Star Wars: Clone Wars

[TheShredder]

http://www.starwars.com/eu/news/2003/02/news20030220.html
http://www.starwars.com/eu/news/2003/02/img/clonewarsposter_bg.jpg
I don't know about you but the artwork lots pretty crappy!

[Mars-Chan]

Yoda's fine...but everything else...Nah.

[The Stryker]

ewwwwwww......thats looks worse than x-men evolution!

[The 7th Turtle]

Yoda's fine...but everything else...Nah.

thinking the same...

[Mars-Chan]

ewwwwwww.....that looks worse than x-men evolution!!
I KNOW you just did not say that!!!! :evil:

[The Stryker]

duuuuuh did i say something else?!

xmen evolution is all wrong but im just a comic freak

[TheShredder]

Yeah in X-Men evolution there were all drawen like teenages! http://www.bugkid.com/xmenevolution/pictures/005.jpg http://www.bugkid.com/xmenevolution/pictures/010.jpg The Old X-Men cartoon was much better drawen!

[The 7th Turtle]

we don't have X-MEN evolution in israel so i really don't know what are you talking about...

[The Stryker]

they should have called the show x-teens its barely a "evolution"

[SlayerX]

ROFLMAO! I can even draw better than that 8) Just another waste of space on TV now-a-days :roll:

[TheShredder]

And they both have blue lightsabers! Wait Wasn't Anakin's lightsaber green!?

[niennumb1]

I don't get it. Geoge Lucas could get anyone he wants to make this cartoon. Why did he choose this?!

Why not hire the people who made FINAL FANTASY and the Animatrix short "Final Flight of the Osiris" and go for realism! That would just be killer! Or heck, even ILM could do it! Sheesh!

Bad bad bad..... :(

[cqb101]

I've known about this for months. The animation isn't that bad. I like it. It's the same style as Samurai Jack, and I really like that. The only thing I don't like is the fact that it's not an actual show. Just shorts that they're gonna play instead of commercials.

[Raven]

wow i hated the movie and im sure im going to hate this!

[TheShredder]

Personally I don't like the way Samurai Jacks drawed.
I mean if they got the people who animated the New Ninja Turtles cartoon it would be good. But they get the guy who did "Dexter's Laboratory" and "Samurai Jack"?

[Nturtle]

I don't think it looks bad at all!! Except for the weird witchy 2 lightsaber lady, thats kind of weird... :|

I like that style actually, it is kind of loose and not too constricted or uptight. And Anakin had a blue lightsaber, he got a green one later in the movie to fight Dooku, but later got a new blue, since Luke's is blue and thats Anakin's

[Leo656]

cbq has it right. It's NOT a new show, it's a series of 20 cartoon shorts that will run during commercials, I believe they're about 2-3 minutes a piece. The shorts take place during the time period between Episodes II and III. The art is intentional, since they were going more for a short, stylized series of clips similar in look and feel to a comic book, rather than intense realism. It's like saying the art in the "Clerks" cartoon is lousy because it doesn't look exactly like Jay Mewes, Kevin Smith, Brian O'Halloran, etc. They're focusing more on getting the feel of the characters rather than making it look exactly like the movies.

Check out issue #70 of Toyfare for the full scoop. The first 10 episodes will run through November, and the last 10 will run through February. The story will focus a lot on Anakin, Obi-Wan and Mace, and a lot of important story points will come to light over the series.

I, for one, am gonna try hard to catch it. First episode is November 7, 2003 at 8pm.

[Reznorite420]

Will they be on a specific channel? I want to see how this goes too.

[Leo656]

Cartoon Network

[Voltron]

news of this is not recent. And about it being a show, I do believe that when completed it will make an hour long + movie, though I'm not sure.

[That Matt Guy]

Ugggh, Kangaroo Jack the cartoon can't be too far away...

[ironhelix]

Yeah in X-Men evolution there were all drawed like teenages! http://www.bugkid.com/xmenevolution/pictures/005.jpg http://www.bugkid.com/xmenevolution/pictures/010.jpg The Old X-Men cartoon was much better drawed!

Yeah, and I suppose the old TMNT was "drawed" better, huh? :P

[ironhelix]

I've known about this for months. The animation isn't that bad. I like it. It's the same style as Samurai Jack, and I really like that. The only thing I don't like is the fact that it's not an actual show. Just shorts that they're gonna play instead of commercials.

Are the characters even voiced by the same actors?

[cqb101]

news of this is not recent. And about it being a show, I do believe that when completed it will make an hour long + movie, though I'm not sure.

Actually when done it will be an hour or less.

[That Matt Guy]

Hopefully it will have plenty of Jar Jar Binks scenes.

[cqb101]

Hopefully it will have plenty of Jar Jar Binks scenes.

LOL. The second I see Jar Jar in it is the second I stop watching it.

[Shellfox]

Yat another reason to hate what Star Wars has become

They better not screw up Chewie in ep 3, or there will be hell to pay!

[cqb101]

Yat another reason to hate what Star Wars has become

They better not screw up Chewie in ep 3, or there will be hell to pay!


Why hate it? It hasn't become anything. This is how Lucas wanted. He wanted a second trilogy, and that's what he's doing. He wanted to tell the story of the Clone Wars but couldn't make another movie to do it, so he did a cartoon. And incase you didn't know this is actually the third SW cartoon made.

[ironhelix]

I thought this was the fourth...

[cqb101]

There was Droids and Ewoks. Am I missing one?

[ironhelix]

You're probably right about there only being 3 instead of 4. For some reason I was thinking the Star Wars Holiday Special was animated...

[Donatello the turtle]

we don't have X-MEN evolution in israel so i really don't know what are you talking about...
we did have it in israel on cheneel 6(the funny part about it in TMNT old cartoon april works at cheneel 6 and in israel the show is on cheneel 6)

[Knuckles]

Part of the Holiday Special was animated--the cartoon with the first appearance of Boba Fett. Anyway, I like Samurai Jack a lot, and though the characted designs aren't my favorite, the animation as a whole is good. Tartakovsky handles action very well, and I can't think of a better Cartoon Network-related person to do it. The action will most certainly be good, and they're mixing in a couple of elements from the Star Wars comic series, which I believe is where that female dark warrior comes from. I'm a big Star Wars fan myself, so I can't wait personally. I wish that it were twice the length, though, so it would end up being a two-hour movie altogether. I'm sure that there will be a DVD release of all of them together soon after all of them air, though. In any case, they will probably be available for download, (however illegally) very soon following the airings. But take or leave the animation style, we all have our preferences, it will most certainly be good--and definitely to SW fans. I don't expect to be disappointed. Too bad that the movies' actors won't be playing the voices, but there we are. Actually, maybe we'll get Frank Oz at least.

[Raven]

Ugggh, Kangaroo Jack the cartoon can't be too far away...

oh man dont say that :evil:
thats just not right! :dead:

[Shellfox]

Yat another reason to hate what Star Wars has become

They better not screw up Chewie in ep 3, or there will be hell to pay!


Why hate it? It hasn't become anything.
Hssn't become anything?! Its become an endless excuse for technology! True Mr Lucas wanted to do this, but he seems to care more for the tech. end than the story end. The origanal story may be great but the last 2 mnovies have sucked. I sat through ep 2 yesterday when it was on HBO, and it was the most boring thing they've done since Ep 1. Its become all about the visual effects and less about heart. And continuing it through cartoons is just going to contue the insult.
If it weren't for seeing the first 3 movies long ago, these 2 alone woul;d make me hate anything to do with Star Wars, the effects may not have been as technicly inovative by todays standards but aty least I give a damn what happens to the charters

[Ghidorah2000]

http://www.starwars.com/eu/news/2003/02/news20030220.html
http://www.starwars.com/eu/news/2003/02/img/clonewarsposter_bg.jpg
I don't know about you but the artwork lots pretty crappy!

Yep. Another way to totally mortify we who remember the OT from way back in the day. George Lucas has lost the touch I believe.

[Ghidorah2000]

Yat another reason to hate what Star Wars has become

They better not screw up Chewie in ep 3, or there will be hell to pay!


Why hate it? It hasn't become anything. This is how Lucas wanted. He wanted a second trilogy, and that's what he's doing. He wanted to tell the story of the Clone Wars but couldn't make another movie to do it, so he did a cartoon. And incase you didn't know this is actually the third SW cartoon made.

Yes, the atrocious Droids and the modestly successful Ewoks cartoon. I don't remember Droids so much because I just didn't like it. But at that time I was a kid who loved the Ewoks so I watch the Ewoks cartoon religiously on Saturdays. I haven't seen that cartoon in ages.

[Leo656]

Man, a lotta people sippin' the Star Wars Haterade around here.

Let's be fair... if someone showed you pictures of I'unno, South Park or Dexter's Lab before it came out, would you think, based on still pictures of the art, that it's some amazing or funny or just plain GOOD show? (Well I honestly never watch Dexter's Lab but a lot of people like it) It's not fair to judge the quality of this cartoon show based on ONE picture of conceptual art. Like I said, look for the article in Toyfare if you want to know more, the story looks quite good and I'm honestly shocked at how much storytelling they're going to cram into these 3-minute animated shorts.

I wish the art was cleaner too but c'mon, at least give it a chance and see it in action before you leak on it. It's still months and months away. Besides, I don't think it would be practical for them to dump tons of money into the project seeing as how it's just a series of short animated clips. I'm sure if they were doing something along the lines of a half-hour cartoon series, or a 60-90 minute animated movie, that they'd have the most expensive and polished animation possible. But they're not, so they won't.

And we get to see lots of Force Powers and lightsabers underwater. That makes me giddy. :D

And I still don't see the hate on the last two flicks (even though Ja-Ja was annoying as piss). It's funny, I didn't even watch the entire trilogy until 1996 and I have more faith and interest in the new flicks than people who've been fans for 20 odd years. I do agree that there's a bit too much emphasis on the CGI and stuff, but like I've said before, I am a firm believer CGI should be used ONLY when necessary, but, well, you can see from flicks like Matrix that that aint happening. Personally, I'm waiting for Episode III to wrap up the trilogy before I judge all three new movies as a whole. It's fairly obvious I and II are backstory leading up to something bigger.

Oh man... I'm defending Star Wars... I'm such a nerd... :(

[Ghidorah2000]

Let me clarify:

Original (OT) Trilogy - Good high quality entertainment. I prefer the original cuts over the Special Edition ones though. You could see Lucas' unnecessary over kill with CGI there. God I hate the dance number in Jedi he added.

Prequels and any Prequel relasted stuff - Very disappointing

[Leo656]

Well, I disagree. I dunno why. I just think people's expectations for the prequels were WAY too high. That can be expected, though, when there's a 20-year buildup for them.

Lucas even said the story and everything for I-III wasn't as strong as the "classic" trilogy, that's why he made those first. It seems like Episodes I and II are mostly the buildup for Episode III more than stand-alone movies, and I for one am fine with it. To each their own I guess.

[InsaneZane]

Except for the weird witchy 2 lightsaber lady, thats kind of weird... :|


I think that's a re-incarnated 'Kamari Vosa'... if anyone knows who I'm talkin about

BTW.. it is romored that Episode III will be subtitled.
"Circle of the Force"
lame, huh???

[Knuckles]

Well, I disagree. I dunno why. I just think people's expectations for the prequels were WAY too high. That can be expected, though, when there's a 20-year buildup for them.

Lucas even said the story and everything for I-III wasn't as strong as the "classic" trilogy, that's why he made those first. It seems like Episodes I and II are mostly the buildup for Episode III more than stand-alone movies, and I for one am fine with it. To each their own I guess.

Well said. I'm with you on that. Basically, the prequels get a lot of unnecessary criticism, and it's, (no offense to anyone here, just an observation based on my experience) sorta become the "cool" thing to do to criticize them. It's very easy to jump on the SW-hating bandwagon, and say Lucas ruined Star Wars, but what people seem to forget is that they're his movies, not theirs. He has every right to do what he wants with them, and his story is law in the Star Wars universe. That's why Boba Fett's previous character history had to be rewritten after Attack of the Clones for example, and written off as stories he orchestrated to hide his past. Heck, if Lucas decides to put tap dancing Jedi in Episode III, then so be it if that's his vision. His movies, his choice. Personally, if I had created a magnificent movie trilogy 20 years ago, and then returned to film the backstory trilogy years later, I'd be pretty offended if people criticized me for ruining my own story. His story, his choice. I'm really more disappointed with some of the expanded universe literature than the prequels, even though they're (rightfully) not official, as nothing that isn't explictly stated or shown in the movies, (or directly approved by Lucas himself) is not "official." The Yuuzhan Vong invasion stories that take place during the New Jedi Order spring to mind. But as far as the prequels go, they need to be cut some major slack. There's no way they could be the second coming that everyone was hoping for. They serve the purpose of explaining how and why the events that occur in Episodes IV-VI came to be. It's showing why this guy Anakin Skywalker was such a big deal, and how and why he made the transformation from good Jedi Knight to evil Darth Vader, dark lord of the Sith. It's showing what Obi-Wan Kenobi, the wise old Jedi who started Luke Skywalker on the path to Jedi Knighthood, and restoring the Jedi Order, was like in his youth, and just where he might have gone wrong with Anakin. It's showing the glory and extravagance of the Old Republic which transformed into the evil Galactic Empire, and how a corrupt and evil politician/Sith lord was able to become its Emperor. It's showing how powerful the legendary Jedi Knights really were, and why Yoda deserved to be called "Master." It's the prologue, and I'd say it's pretty darn good for a prologue.

[cqb101]

Well, I disagree. I dunno why. I just think people's expectations for the prequels were WAY too high. That can be expected, though, when there's a 20-year buildup for them.

Lucas even said the story and everything for I-III wasn't as strong as the "classic" trilogy, that's why he made those first. It seems like Episodes I and II are mostly the buildup for Episode III more than stand-alone movies, and I for one am fine with it. To each their own I guess.

Well said. I'm with you on that. Basically, the prequels get a lot of unnecessary criticism, and it's, (no offense to anyone here, just an observation based on my experience) sorta become the "cool" thing to do to criticize them. It's very easy to jump on the SW-hating bandwagon, and say Lucas ruined Star Wars, but what people seem to forget is that they're his movies, not theirs. He has every right to do what he wants with them, and his story is law in the Star Wars universe. That's why Boba Fett's previous character history had to be rewritten after Attack of the Clones for example, and written off as stories he orchestrated to hide his past. Heck, if Lucas decides to put tap dancing Jedi in Episode III, then so be it if that's his vision. His movies, his choice. Personally, if I had created a magnificent movie trilogy 20 years ago, and then returned to film the backstory trilogy years later, I'd be pretty offended if people criticized me for ruining my own story. His story, his choice. I'm really more disappointed with some of the expanded universe literature than the prequels, even though they're (rightfully) not official, as nothing that isn't explictly stated or shown in the movies, (or directly approved by Lucas himself) is not "official." The Yuuzhan Vong invasion stories that take place during the New Jedi Order spring to mind. But as far as the prequels go, they need to be cut some major slack. There's no way they could be the second coming that everyone was hoping for. They serve the purpose of explaining how and why the events that occur in Episodes IV-VI came to be. It's showing why this guy Anakin Skywalker was such a big deal, and how and why he made the transformation from good Jedi Knight to evil Darth Vader, dark lord of the Sith. It's showing what Obi-Wan Kenobi, the wise old Jedi who started Luke Skywalker on the path to Jedi Knighthood, and restoring the Jedi Order, was like in his youth, and just where he might have gone wrong with Anakin. It's showing the glory and extravagance of the Old Republic which transformed into the evil Galactic Empire, and how a corrupt and evil politician/Sith lord was able to become its Emperor. It's showing how powerful the legendary Jedi Knights really were, and why Yoda deserved to be called "Master." It's the prologue, and I'd say it's pretty darn good for a prologue.

Well said!

[Leo656]

I concur. My biggest problem with the prequels isn't the story, it's the fact that big bad Anakin Skywalker has been portrayed as a whiny punk who *I* could kick the crap out of. But that's more because of the fact that Hayden Christensen is a lousy actor. But ah well, actors aren't as good as they were 20 years ago and that, my friends, is fact. Lucas had a LOT more to work with when he cast the movies back then... even if Carrie Fischer was coked out of her head for most of it.

[Reznorite420]

*high fives Kunkles, cqb, and Leo*

At last, some people who realize that the only reason most people dissed the first 2 prequels was because they expected them to be like the original trilogy, when in fact they're slightly different universes.

Oh, and BTW, another reason Lucas made episodes 4, 5, and 6 first was because he didn't have the technology to make the prequels come to life at the time.

[Leo656]

Yeah that too. Forgot about that.

[ironhelix]

Well, I disagree. I dunno why. I just think people's expectations for the prequels were WAY too high. That can be expected, though, when there's a 20-year buildup for them.

Lucas even said the story and everything for I-III wasn't as strong as the "classic" trilogy, that's why he made those first. It seems like Episodes I and II are mostly the buildup for Episode III more than stand-alone movies, and I for one am fine with it. To each their own I guess.

Well said. I'm with you on that. Basically, the prequels get a lot of unnecessary criticism, and it's, (no offense to anyone here, just an observation based on my experience) sorta become the "cool" thing to do to criticize them. It's very easy to jump on the SW-hating bandwagon, and say Lucas ruined Star Wars, but what people seem to forget is that they're his movies, not theirs. He has every right to do what he wants with them, and his story is law in the Star Wars universe. That's why Boba Fett's previous character history had to be rewritten after Attack of the Clones for example, and written off as stories he orchestrated to hide his past. Heck, if Lucas decides to put tap dancing Jedi in Episode III, then so be it if that's his vision. His movies, his choice. Personally, if I had created a magnificent movie trilogy 20 years ago, and then returned to film the backstory trilogy years later, I'd be pretty offended if people criticized me for ruining my own story. His story, his choice. I'm really more disappointed with some of the expanded universe literature than the prequels, even though they're (rightfully) not official, as nothing that isn't explictly stated or shown in the movies, (or directly approved by Lucas himself) is not "official." The Yuuzhan Vong invasion stories that take place during the New Jedi Order spring to mind. But as far as the prequels go, they need to be cut some major slack. There's no way they could be the second coming that everyone was hoping for. They serve the purpose of explaining how and why the events that occur in Episodes IV-VI came to be. It's showing why this guy Anakin Skywalker was such a big deal, and how and why he made the transformation from good Jedi Knight to evil Darth Vader, dark lord of the Sith. It's showing what Obi-Wan Kenobi, the wise old Jedi who started Luke Skywalker on the path to Jedi Knighthood, and restoring the Jedi Order, was like in his youth, and just where he might have gone wrong with Anakin. It's showing the glory and extravagance of the Old Republic which transformed into the evil Galactic Empire, and how a corrupt and evil politician/Sith lord was able to become its Emperor. It's showing how powerful the legendary Jedi Knights really were, and why Yoda deserved to be called "Master." It's the prologue, and I'd say it's pretty darn good for a prologue.

I agree 100%. I have always been of the opinion that everything will make a lot more sense once Episode III hits in 2005. Also, most everybody who has seen the original trilogy saw through a much younger set of eyes. One other thing that bugs me about people's criticism of the Star Wars universe is the "midi-chlorians" or however the hell it is spelled backstory. People got all in an uproar over this when it was brought up, talking about how it was never mentioned in the original trilogy. Well, it was never mentioned because there was no need to, duhhhh. Episode I-III is backstory compared to IV-VI. People should keep an open mind. I can guarandamntee you that if I-III was filmed 20 years ago and IV-VI is done now that people would be one of two things: A)-not be so critical of episodes I-III and instead be critical of IV-VI, or 2)-not be so critical at all about any of them.

How did this turn into a Star Wars message board? :lol:

[Oxnard Hamster]

BTW.. it is romored that Episode III will be subtitled.
"Circle of the Force"
lame, huh???


Well, you have to take rumors with a grain of salt. A lot of people thought Episode II would be called either "The Clone Wars" or "Rise of the Empire."
And I agree that the main reason Episodes I and II are trashed so much is because people's expectations were too high.
The only thing that upsets me is the fact it looks like we won't get to see The Clone Wars in the actual movies.
And I hope Episode III has some more action. It seems like I and II are just build up.

[Karpo_007]

They aren't dissed just because they aren't as good as originals, they are dissed because they aren't really goo movies, Star Wars or not. Phantom Menace was like a Disney movie with "Oops, I blew up space ship" kind of things, not to mention Jar Jar Binks. Laso the writing isn't that good, it's full of cheesy lines.

Actors in Phantome Mebace are ok, McGregor and Neesson do their job well. But Episode 2... Hayden Kristennsen :dead: enough said. Also cheesy line return and I got personally bored while watching the movie.

They are certainly no Oscar Winners, Except in the Special effect department. Those are the only first class hing about the movies, along side with ligh saber battles. Many people look this movies trough Star Wars glasses, and can't see their faults. Understandable, I have similar thing with the TMNT most of the time. But I have lerned to critisize movies as such, just movies, where Story, Directing, Plot development and Actor performances decide if the movies are good or not.

New Star Wars aren't entirely bad, As A Star Wars fan I can watch them and enjoy them even, but I can still see why they won't be classics. Most people don't critisize them because it's cool, there really is reason to.

About "It's Lucas' Story", thats right. But it isn't only Lucas that made the great first trilogy. I have written long posts about this before, So Il put it shorter this time[Well as short as I can]. Gary Kurtz, the producer of New Hope and Empire Strikes back is highly responsible of he greatness of thos two films. Especially the Darkest Star Wars movie, Empire Strikes back. That movie is worldwide considered the Best Star Wars movie, and I agree to this to.

This is the part where "It's Lucas' Story" comes in. Director of Empire Irvin Kershner, had many disagrements with Lucas about Empire. Lucas wanted to do some things diffrently, and Kershner wasn't a director he could controll, he did his own way. This is what cuased some trouble Between Lucas and Kurtz and he wasn't involved on Return of Jedi. Return of Jedi was originally going to be a dark movie, like Empire, and Han Solo was supposed to die in it. It wasn't supposed to be a copy of first movie, And there wasn't supposed to be a Death Star two. Thats how Kurtz wanted it, but Lucas decided to redo the whole thing, And Ewoks reigned.

Of course, it was his choice. Jedi still made lots of money and yes, is a good movie. Of course it doesn't reach the glory of Empire, and lost all the darker elements, but it still works as a whole. I consider it even better than New hope.

So why aren't New episodes as good? Few things, Lucas has witten most of the dialogue himself. And as imaginative as he is, he isn't a skilled movie director. I consider both Empire and Jedi to be better than New Hope, and those two were directed by other directors[altough Lucas chose Richard Marquand to direct Jedi because he could contrill him, unlike Kershner].

And yes, the high expetations do play a part in it to. It's been 20 years, wolrd has changed and Lucas has changed. It is his story, he has right to turn it whatever he wants, but it still doesn't make the movies especially good.

I don't have high hopes for episode 3, but after First two episode it has potetntial to be the best one of them. Episode 2 was a huge step from Phantom menace, there is a chance that Episode 3 will be more that another special effect rollercoaster. Let's hope for the best.

PS. Yes I do know a lot about Star Wars, I have studied it for a long time and written several papers for school about it. Post might contain typos, it's late and there is to much text to go trough... Hopefully there isn't anything unclear.

[ThirdMarioBro]

Hmmm, I didn't know there was a new Star Wars cartoon coming. Guess I'll have to tape that too.

[Oxnard Hamster]

I don't blame it on Christenson. I think for some reason, they decided to make the Jedi order very stoic, when Luke in 4-6 more or less had a believable personality; he just had special abilities in the force.

[Leo656]

Actually, Hayden Christensen is, for what it's worth, the ONLY thing about Episode II that I didn't like, I though his performance was awful. It didn't kill the movie for me, but it did make it less enjoyable.

[Karpo_007]

He is the only really bad actor I can point in Epiosde 2.

[Eye of Sarnath]

One thing I don't understand is, why the hell do people want "dark" movies? Just because something is "dark" doesn't mean it's better, and you're crazy if you think otherwise. Are "dark" movies more successful? No. People could care less if it's "dark" as long as it's good. Personally, I think this "dark" thing is load of ********. Maybe that's why I enjoyed The Phantom Menace so much. I didn't go in thinking (like so many people did) "OMG, it's gotta be super-dark! Anakin's gotta be a rapist and a serial killer!" And because people didn't get what they were expecting, they were dissapointed. And believe me, that is what most of the fans wanted (see the message boards on theforce.net for proof). I wasn't dissaponited, and you know why? I didn't have any expectations, except to be entertained for two hours.

People complain about bad acting. Well, was Frank Oz's performance half-assed? Was Ahmed Best's performance half-assed? How many of the CGI characters have bad voice work? Make no mistake, the real stars of the prequels are very much the CGI characters and the brilliant animators behind them.

I think it's worth mentioning, that there is one area where the prequels are better than he original movies: the music. The music in AotC pretty much kicks the crap out of every other movie (Star Wars or otherwise).

That rant was longer than I expected...

[Karpo_007]

It seem someone is completetly missing the point... But since you hate darker movies, I guess you don't like Empire, or New TMNT for that matter. Both are darker than originals. And you wont like Episode 3 either, Lucas has said in every interview that Episode 3 will be the darkest one of the three.

Also, it seems to me you don't know what darker movies really are. It doesn't mean it will need to have rapists, it means no "OOOPS" after blowing a space ship, or "Meesa in BIIIGGG DOODDOOO!" or Jar Jar in general for that matter.

Few Examples: Matrix: Reloaded is dark, American Pie is light. One thing you did got right, it doesn't mean that darker movies are better, It's a matter of opinion really. And I do prefer Terminator and Matrix over American Pie and Dude where's My car. I like all those movies tough.

Bad acting: Natalie Portman, Hayden Kristenseen to name a few. Portman is not a bad actress, but that role she cannot act. Or it might be Lucas' weakness as a director. If you have watched any interviews, you know He hardly directs the actors, Just says something like, "lets try it again" but not giving guidance how to do it.

About the music, you have a good point there. John Williams is probably the Best composer in the movies business, The music is probably the best thing about New Star Wars movies.

[Eye of Sarnath]

Now tell me: where in that post did I say I hate dark movies? Uh-huh, I thought so. I didn't.

[Karpo_007]

why the hell do people want "dark" movies? Just because something is "dark" doesn't mean it's better, and you're crazy if you think otherwise. Are "dark" movies more successful? No. People could care less if it's "dark" as long as it's good.

Sorry if you didn't mean that, that the impression I got. And you are right it's not the darkness that makes movies like Terminator or Matrix good, it's good story, good actors and directing etc etc. But the lack of darkness is not the reason why New Star Wars movies arent very good. It's the lack of good story, and actor performances. Most actors there are could do a lot better, And I do belive it's strongly beacuse Lucas's directing.

New episodes won't be remembered after 20 years like original trilogy, but if you aren't expecting them to be great movies, but accept them as just a piece of good entertainment, you can enjoy the movies. This has been my attitude after Episode I, but the oldest Star Wars fans can't seem to see the new episodes that way.

[Kameko]

Just found this thread. All I can say is:

Sweet Lord in Heaven, WHY???

:dead:

[Raven]

:lol:

[TheShredder]

Check this out
78 Reasons to Hate Star Wars: Episode I
http://www.lanceandeskimo.com/chefelf/rnt_78reasons.shtml
64 Reasons to Hate Star Wars: Episode II
http://www.lanceandeskimo.com/chefelf/rnt_64reasons.shtml

[Karpo_007]

Quite a compilation but I think it goes to much into details. Cheesy writing, "Disneyism" and under performing actors are the main faults of Phantom Menace, Same with Episode 2 except the Disneyism seems to be gone.

[ironhelix]

People could care less if it's "dark" as long as it's good. Personally, I think this "dark" thing is load of sh**. Maybe that's why I enjoyed The Phantom Menace so much. I didn't go in thinking (like so many people did) "OMG, it's gotta be super-dark! Anakin's gotta be a rapist and a serial killer!"

LOL 9 year-old rapist and serial killer! That's a first!

[ironhelix]

People complain about bad acting. Well, was Frank Oz's performance half-assed? Was Ahmed Best's performance half-assed? How many of the CGI characters have bad voice work? Make no mistake, the real stars of the prequels are very much the CGI characters and the brilliant animators behind them.

Well said Mr. Sarnath. It's fine to critique the talents of an actor, actress, director, or basically anybody in a profession that you are not in. But it's an entirely different thing to be dissing it constantly and not offering any kind of constructive criticism. For these individuals I would say show us something better since it's obvious you have more talent than the best in Hollywood.

[ironhelix]

About the music, you have a good point there. John Williams is probably the Best composer in the movies business, The music is probably the best thing about New Star Wars movies.

A close second would be Danny Elfman.

[ironhelix]

why the hell do people want "dark" movies? Just because something is "dark" doesn't mean it's better, and you're crazy if you think otherwise. Are "dark" movies more successful? No. People could care less if it's "dark" as long as it's good.

Sorry if you didn't mean that, that the impression I got. And you are right it's not the darkness that makes movies like Terminator or Matrix good, it's good story, good actors and directing etc etc. But the lack of darkness is not the reason why New Star Wars movies arent very good. It's the lack of good story, and actor performances. Most actors there are could do a lot better, And I do belive it's strongly beacuse Lucas's directing.

New episodes won't be remembered after 20 years like original trilogy, but if you aren't expecting them to be great movies, but accept them as just a piece of good entertainment, you can enjoy the movies. This has been my attitude after Episode I, but the oldest Star Wars fans can't seem to see the new episodes that way.

All this talk of bad acting reminds me of Mark Hamill in Episode IV. I can do a pretty good impression of him in that one scene when Owen tells him to clean up the droids. "But I was supposed to go to Toshii station to pick up some power converters!" LOL I loved that moment...

[Karpo_007]

Side Note: Episode IV was written by Lucas like I and II :). You are right, the actors aren't that Strong in New Hope, they are lot better in Empire and Jedi.

New epsidode have good actors, but they are clearly under performing their roles. Like I said before thats probably due to Lucas' direction. Only really bad actor I can think of, is Hayden Kristenssen.

[Knuckles]

Your knowledge is impressive, Karpo_007. You put up the argument that few I have debated this with have used. It is in fact, perfectly justified, and basically the only type of argument I can take seriously regarding SW. I, of course, agree with you on certain parts. Lucas is definitely lacking in the directing area--ESB and ROTJ definitely show what other directors can do with SW. I am of course, a big SW fan, and I'm the type of fan that can see the flaws, but I still accept it all as valid entries in the saga, and it doesn't diminish the entertainment value for me. I am very much looking forward to Episode III, as Lucas has said that it will be darker and not appeal to some people, which basically means it will appeal more to people than TPM or AOTC, as Lucas is sort of out of touch with how people perceive the movies. But I digress. Anyway, I am pleased to see that some people can actually make valid arguments criticizing the prequels, rather than just hopping on the SW-hating bandwagon, (which, no, I'm not saying that's what every critic of the new movies does, but in my experience it seems that way a lot). Kudos to you, Karpo, and kudos again. May the Force be with you.

[ironhelix]

Your knowledge is impressive, Karpo_007. You put up the argument that few I have debated this with have used. It is in fact, perfectly justified, and basically the only type of argument I can take seriously regarding SW. I, of course, agree with you on certain parts. Lucas is definitely lacking in the directing area--ESB and ROTJ definitely show what other directors can do with SW. I am of course, a big SW fan, and I'm the type of fan that can see the flaws, but I still accept it all as valid entries in the saga, and it doesn't diminish the entertainment value for me. I am very much looking forward to Episode III, as Lucas has said that it will be darker and not appeal to some people, which basically means it will appeal more to people than TPM or AOTC, as Lucas is sort of out of touch with how people perceive the movies. But I digress. Anyway, I am pleased to see that some people can actually make valid arguments criticizing the prequels, rather than just hopping on the SW-hating bandwagon, (which, no, I'm not saying that's what every critic of the new movies does, but in my experience it seems that way a lot). Kudos to you, Karpo, and kudos again. May the Force be with you.

Of course you have to accept it as valid entries in the saga, because there are no other valid entries.

[Karpo_007]

Yeah, Episode 3 has potential to become a good movie, and Im pretty sure it will be the best of New episodes. It has been said that it will have more lighsaber battles than any SW movie before, So hopefully Hayden fights more than talks.

[Ghidorah2000]

I concur. My biggest problem with the prequels isn't the story, it's the fact that big bad Anakin Skywalker has been portrayed as a whiny punk who *I* could kick the crap out of. But that's more because of the fact that Hayden Christensen is a lousy actor. But ah well, actors aren't as good as they were 20 years ago and that, my friends, is fact. Lucas had a LOT more to work with when he cast the movies back then... even if Carrie Fischer was coked out of her head for most of it.

I know this is a bit late but I had to add something here. I just can't be,lieve that Lucas chose whiny Hayden Christiansen over the kid who played Pyro in X2. I forget the actor's name but he auditioned for the role. Why Lucas did not choose him is beyond me unless he wanted to show us where Luike got his whininess from. Anyone remember Luke's whiny line from Star Wars?

[Karpo_007]

Nothing coms to mind, But New Hope had many cheesy lines, as do every SW movie written by Lucas. The guy who plaued Pyro is Aaron Stanford, and he would have been a muc better choice for the role of Anakin. I hope they take Kristennsen to actor school before they start shooting episode 3.


Aaron Stanford

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Events/1958/AaronStanf_Grani_1067650_400.jpg

[Ghidorah2000]

It just boggles my mind why Lucas didn't choose him. I hope after seeing X2 he's kicking himself.

[Karpo_007]

Yeah, it's a shame. Unlike Christenssen, Stanford can really act.

[Ghidorah2000]

Yeah, it's a shame. Unlike Christenssen, Stanford can really act.

Maybe that was the problem. He could act.

[Karpo_007]

Heh.. I heard the official reason is that Christenssen looks Good with Portman. That was more important to Lucas than the fact can he act or not.

[ironhelix]

I don't recall Aaron Stanford ever being in the running. Anyway, the line was "But I was supposed to go to Toshii station to pick up some power converters!!!" I've been told I do a hilarious impersonation... :P

[Karpo_007]

If he wasn't, then he should have been.

[ironhelix]

If he wasn't, then he should have been.

Agreed.

[Ghidorah2000]

I don't recall Aaron Stanford ever being in the running. Anyway, the line was "But I was supposed to go to Toshii station to pick up some power converters!!!" I've been told I do a hilarious impersonation... :P

I find that hilarious. Like father, like son. Think about it won't you? :D

[Reznorite420]

Your knowledge is impressive, Karpo_007. You put up the argument that few I have debated this with have used. It is in fact, perfectly justified, and basically the only type of argument I can take seriously regarding SW. I, of course, agree with you on certain parts. Lucas is definitely lacking in the directing area--ESB and ROTJ definitely show what other directors can do with SW. I am of course, a big SW fan, and I'm the type of fan that can see the flaws, but I still accept it all as valid entries in the saga, and it doesn't diminish the entertainment value for me. I am very much looking forward to Episode III, as Lucas has said that it will be darker and not appeal to some people, which basically means it will appeal more to people than TPM or AOTC, as Lucas is sort of out of touch with how people perceive the movies. But I digress. Anyway, I am pleased to see that some people can actually make valid arguments criticizing the prequels, rather than just hopping on the SW-hating bandwagon, (which, no, I'm not saying that's what every critic of the new movies does, but in my experience it seems that way a lot). Kudos to you, Karpo, and kudos again. May the Force be with you.I hope you were being sarcastic. Karpo's claiming his own opinions about the prequels are solid facts of the universe, which he does to a lot of things as well. However, I for one tend to lean on the side that despite my own opinions about Karpo's criticism, I and II were definitely NOT the best movies ever made. A New Hope is as of now still my most favorite.

[ironhelix]

Your knowledge is impressive, Karpo_007. You put up the argument that few I have debated this with have used. It is in fact, perfectly justified, and basically the only type of argument I can take seriously regarding SW. I, of course, agree with you on certain parts. Lucas is definitely lacking in the directing area--ESB and ROTJ definitely show what other directors can do with SW. I am of course, a big SW fan, and I'm the type of fan that can see the flaws, but I still accept it all as valid entries in the saga, and it doesn't diminish the entertainment value for me. I am very much looking forward to Episode III, as Lucas has said that it will be darker and not appeal to some people, which basically means it will appeal more to people than TPM or AOTC, as Lucas is sort of out of touch with how people perceive the movies. But I digress. Anyway, I am pleased to see that some people can actually make valid arguments criticizing the prequels, rather than just hopping on the SW-hating bandwagon, (which, no, I'm not saying that's what every critic of the new movies does, but in my experience it seems that way a lot). Kudos to you, Karpo, and kudos again. May the Force be with you.I hope you were being sarcastic. Karpo's claiming his own opinions about the prequels are solid facts of the universe, which he does to a lot of things as well. However, I for one tend to lean on the side that despite my own opinions about Karpo's criticism, I and II were definitely NOT the best movies ever made. A New Hope is as of now still my most favorite.

Nah man, the best Star Wars movie ever made was The Ewok Adventure.

[Karpo_007]

Your knowledge is impressive, Karpo_007. You put up the argument that few I have debated this with have used. It is in fact, perfectly justified, and basically the only type of argument I can take seriously regarding SW. I, of course, agree with you on certain parts. Lucas is definitely lacking in the directing area--ESB and ROTJ definitely show what other directors can do with SW. I am of course, a big SW fan, and I'm the type of fan that can see the flaws, but I still accept it all as valid entries in the saga, and it doesn't diminish the entertainment value for me. I am very much looking forward to Episode III, as Lucas has said that it will be darker and not appeal to some people, which basically means it will appeal more to people than TPM or AOTC, as Lucas is sort of out of touch with how people perceive the movies. But I digress. Anyway, I am pleased to see that some people can actually make valid arguments criticizing the prequels, rather than just hopping on the SW-hating bandwagon, (which, no, I'm not saying that's what every critic of the new movies does, but in my experience it seems that way a lot). Kudos to you, Karpo, and kudos again. May the Force be with you.I hope you were being sarcastic. Karpo's claiming his own opinions about the prequels are solid facts of the universe, which he does to a lot of things as well. However, I for one tend to lean on the side that despite my own opinions about Karpo's criticism, I and II were definitely NOT the best movies ever made. A New Hope is as of now still my most favorite.

I've claimed they have cheesy writing and bad acting. Those are not my opions, but facts. When you watch enough movies, you will learn to recognize the diffrence between good and bad acting or brilliant and cheesy writing. And trust me, those or not only my words.

Don't try to damage my credibility saying "Karpo's claiming his own opinions about the prequels are solid facts of the universe, which he does to a lot of things as well." wich is completely BS, I do no such thing.
Next time, if you want to debate, do not attack people saying they say their opinions as facts, try to prove something wrong. So far you did no such thing. And you can't. Im sure no one thinks writing in New episodes is brilliant, that the actors are performing on their best, or that Christenssen is a good actor. Nor will anyone tell you Lucas is good directing actors, since the actors themself have said otherwise. It's you who needs to get your facts staright.

I would say New hope is the second best movie in the series, It tells a whole story. As much better the story telling and writing/acting in Empire Stikes back is, it feels incomplete without Jedi. And nothing beats the first battle against Deathstar, and this is MY OPINION.

[Eye of Sarnath]

I've claimed they have cheesy writing and bad acting. Those are not my opions, but facts. When you watch enough movies, you will learn to recognize the diffrence between good and bad acting or brilliant and cheesy writing. And trust me, those or not only my words.

That is most definitely an opinion.

[Karpo_007]

No, As I say it goes with experience to lern to notice good and and not good acting. When you have watched enough movies you do know why Some people get oscars from acting and some doesn't. If it was an opinion, someone could say that Arnold Schwarznegger is a great character actor. And everyone with even a little experience about the world of movie knows that isn't true.

Also about the underperforming, if you watch other movies of the actors in New episode, Liam Neeson for example,watch a movie called "Les Miserables" or even more in Schindler's List and you do know when he acts good. Or do the same with McGregor in "Transpointing". They are under performing in New episodes, a fact not an opinion.

And I already said this about Lucas' direction, the actors them self has said he doesn't really direct the actors, like telling what they should do diffrently. And about Christensen's acting, prety much same as with mister Schwarznegger.

[Eye of Sarnath]

I'm afraid the issue isn't really open for debate. A fact in something that can be proven. An opinion can not be proven. Thinking something is "bad" or cheesy" is not a fact, simply because you can't prove it. But if I said, for example, that my avatar is yellow, that is a fact because you can prove it. People's definitions of what is "bad" or "cheesy" varies. You say that the Star Wars prequels have "cheesy" dialouge and "bad" acting, and yet some people think it's just fine. Your opinion is not a fact, and neither is mine. You can't argue a fact, but you can argue an opinion. Again, Arnold being a great character actor is an opinion, don't try to make it out to be otherwise.

[Karpo_007]

Alredy wrote 2 long posts about it, not going to do another. If someone says Arnold is great character actor, it's clear he does not have experience on movies. Like I have told so many times, it goes with experience and how many movies you have watched. Is a movie good or bad, thats an opinion. Is someone underperforming, or juts plain acting bad, it's not.You need watch more movies from the same actor before you really know. Yes it does not bother all people, but those with Experience on movies Will learn to recocgnize it. Like I said, watch Schindler's List and Transpinting. After that you will know how Liam Neeson and Evan Mcgregor act on their best. And if you want to know what's brilliant writing, Let's sa few action movies, Watch Die Hard or Kninghts Tale. Well 2 movies with excellent writing might not be enough, but in time, like I said, you will learn recognize it. Yes someone can say that Arnold is a great character actor, or that my avatar has a cat in it. With experience on movies, and on animals you will learn to recognize that neither is true. Well it seems I made 3th long post after all.

[Eye of Sarnath]

I don't believe I have ever met someone who so greatly believes their opinion to be fact. Okay, if the Star Wars prequels have cheesy writing and bad acting, prove it to me beyond a shadow of a doubt. If Arnold isn't a good character actor, prove it to me. You can give me reasons as to why to have your opinions on those topics, but you CAN NOT prove to me that either is fact.

[Karpo_007]

I have never met anyone else who says that what is cheesy writing is an opinion, or bad acting for that matter. Like I have said to many times already, WHEN you watch enough movies,you will learn to recognize it. From someone who hasn't it's inmpossible to "prove" since he may not know the diffrence. In these cases best I can do is give example movies they should compare The movies in question to, or in this case individual actor performances.

Belive me, 5 years ago I wouldn't have made a diffrence between Robert De Niro or Arnold Arnold Schwarznegger. But after starting to get really into the movies, like watching classic movies and most of new movies that come in to theaters, I do now know without any doubt who is better actor. And yes, itis a fact. If Someone says Arnold acts better, he does not have enough experience on movies. Like I said, if you do not see the difrence between good and bad acting or brilliant and cheesy writing, compare the movies to exampels I gave you. Wich is a better movies, is always a matter of opinion, but wich movie has better writing is not. Also wich actor you think is better is a matter of opinion, but wich actor can act better is not.

You keep incisting that these are only my opinion, and since you do, do you say Hayden is a good actor? Are you saying that writing in New star Wars movies is brilliant? Are you saying that the actors do not perform better in other movies? Hayden goes without proving, you don't need to have experience on movies to know that he can't really act. Watching episode 2 is enough. Star WArs movies are mainly action, so I compare it to other action movies. Compare it to Die Hard, and you will see the diffrence between cheesy and good writing. And About the actor performances, watch the movies I have listed before. If you do this, you have proven it to yourself.

It's a diffrent thing if chseeys writing bothers you, than if it's there. I so know people that likes Episode 2 more than original trilogy[!] and even they won't deny these facts. You have not done anything else but said that these ae my opinions and not facts. I have no given you the way to prove them as facts yourself, It's your choice what you do with them. Even with these faults New Star Wars movies are good entertainment, but for these reasons they won't win Oscars, or won't be remembered after 20 years like original trilogy.

[Eye of Sarnath]

Oh, this is gonna be fun...

I do not take issue over your opinion that the Star Wars prequels have cheesy writing or bad acting. That's not what I'm debating here. I do, however, take issuie over the fact that you think you are somehow the main authority on the quality of movies.

I have never met anyone else who says that what is cheesy writing is an opinion, or bad acting for that matter.

Hi there. Have we met yet?

I've claimed they have cheesy writing and bad acting. Those are not my opions, but facts

You think that the movies have cheesy writing and bad acting? I don't care if you think that. For all you know, I agree with you. But, just beause someone does think that the acting and writing are good, are you going to tell them they're wrong? You can't, because, it is their opinion.

I don't care if you've seen every movie ever made, or none at all. Your opinion still amounts to exactly that: and opinion. If you failed to throughly read my posts (and I suspect you did), you would notice that I defined what facts and opinions are. A fact can be proven. An opinion can't be proven. If I said that earth is the third planet from the sun, that is a fact. You can prove it. If I said that I thought a movie was bad, that is an opinion, because, you can't prove it. People's definitions of "bad" and "good" vary. Yours and mine are very different, as you no doubt noticed. You can't force an opinion on someone. You're borderline doing that. I hate to dissappoint you, but your word is not law.

If the movies having cheesy writing and bad acting are facts, than prove it to me. I said that in my previous post, and so far you've failed to give me an answer to this.

[Karpo_007]

I suspect you failed to read my last 4 posts. Im not forcing my opinion to anyone. If someone says Arnold is better actor than Al Pacino or Robert De Niro, Yes I can say his is wrong. Acting is interpreting a written character. AND yes it does matter how much you know about movies, when you do know enough, you will understand what Im talking about. Like I said in my previous post, it's diffrent thing to think Arnold is better actor than say he acts better. He is no a good actor, will never be, but thats not the point. Point is that it is a fact, not opinion that De Niro interprets charcaters better than Schwarznegger. If someone says otherwise, I can easily prove him wrong by telling: watch few of De niros movies and compare them to Arnold Schwarznegger's. Same goes with cheesy writing. It has everything to do how many movies you have seen, Like I have said too many times, you will learn to see the diffrence. I did.

Brilliannt writing is imaginetive, and multidimensional. In SW movies it's flat. And this to can only be recognized after experience. If you like Writing in Star Wars, that is your opinion, but it does not make it brilliant.
About Lucas' directing, Actors themselfs have proved that, enough said.
And About Actor performances, You really need to see the movies I've mentioned to see the diffrence.

This argument leads to no where, as you are unable accept that Good acting or writing is not a question of opinion. Neither is good Dancing for example. If someone constantly falls while dancing, or steps on His Partner's feet, he isn't a good dancer. It's a fact, not opinion. Same goes about writing. When you learn to understand this, you will learn why Some movies get Oscars and some don't.

I have given you more examples, but this is movies we are atliing about, moving pictures. Words can not not prove it, and I understand that. Thats why I have given you the example movies. You need to see them, and compare them to New Star Wars. Thats the only way It can be proved.

[Eye of Sarnath]

I believe that the word is obstinate. I am finding it increasingly more difficult to take you seriously. Your arguments hold no water. You claim fail to back up your arguments in a satisfactory manner.

I have given you more examples, but this is movies we are atliing about, moving pictures. Words can not not prove it, and I understand that. Thats why I have given you the example movies. You need to see them, and compare them to New Star Wars. Thats the only way It can be proved.

It's going to take more than just that to convince me. I highly suggest you register at theforce.net forums and post the same thing there with that attitude. You may be surprised when you discover that most of the people who agree with you are the 33 year old fanboys who live in their parent's basement and think up new ways to bash Star Wars for a living, becasue they didn't get what they wanted in the prequels. I might as well go repeatedly hit my head aganst a brick wall; I'll likely have more effect on it than trying to hold a serious disscussion with someone who refuses to believe that they've said something wrong.

[Karpo_007]

Yes I do know about the forums. And I do know the level of dicussion there, much like the infamous GameFaqs forums for TMNT. It certainly isn't a good thing. My arguments are much stronger than yours, you don't have other except "No, Its ypour opinion, not a fact". Now even you start attacking my credibility. If something, that shoud not be taken seriously. I have said nothing wrong, But I have better things to do than argue with someone who does not even try to prove anything wrong, but gives comments like "I am finding it increasingly more difficult to take you seriously". After reading that feel exactly that about you. You made a personal atack, So I will end the discussion here. There is no point trying to prove something to somen who has clearly decided that "You are wrong, whatever you say".

Last thing I will say to this matter, I do like Commando much more than Titanic, But I do know that Acting, Writing and story is far better in Titanic, trust me, it's not my opinion.

Im not going to debate with someone who instead of makig arguments, starts to attack personally. So This s my last post here. Please, Now write as much as you want how you can't take me seriously, how I am wrong. Knock yourself out. I will just agree to disagree, without attacking you.

If someone wants to discuss about New episodes rather than My opions/facts, I will reply, I always enjoy discussing about Star Wars. But I will not write another post about this argument, no matter how "you can't take me seriously".

[Burning In H2O]

Karpo_007, it is a pity you are so self-centered... Siding with Eye of Sarnath, no where did he say that he didn't like 'dark" movies. Now as I bring back the subject of them, if I went to see a movie, I would not rate it on if it was a "dark" one. I would rate acting, plot, music, and depending on what kind of movie it is (reality fiction), I would also rate how real it actually is. Also, "Dark" movies are not "expressed" as you said. When someone blows up a huge spaceship they say "ooops" I don't hurry up and leave muttering to myself "Oh damn, it's not a dark movie." Listening to what you say you are a person who sits there and is happy beacuse after he explosion of the large spaceship happend there is a evil "Muhahaha." The occasional "ooops" adds the nice litte bit of comedy into a horror, or action movie. I have much more to say on this subject, so please post me a message about what criticizm you have about my ideas.

[Nturtle]

Hmmm... I've got a feeling this thread is going to get a little ugly, so either tone it down a notch or take the argument to the PMs, thanks.

[That Matt Guy]

How is it getting ugly? I think you just want to try out you're new Mod powers. :lol:

[Eye of Sarnath]

It could be a lot worse.

[Burning In H2O]

As Eye of Sarnath says, so far this is PG rated stuff. And I hope to keep it PG. And as a side note, I will move this it PMs if it does get anywhere out of hand. At the moment, it is mild.

[Ghidorah2000]

All I can say is that out of all the Star Wars movies, ESB is the darkest and best of all of them. And what pathos Frank Oz gave to that Yoda Puppet. I think ESB Yoda was a much better performer than the CGI Yoda. You knew it was a puppet but Frank Oz gave that puppet so much life, so much empathy.....you could sense that there was a hidden pain within that "crude" puppet. It really says something about Frank Oz's performance when you can suspend your disbelief.

[That Matt Guy]

What is "dark" about the Empire Strikes Back? Just because they are in space the whole time???

[Karpo_007]

Karpo_007, it is a pity you are so self-centered... Siding with Eye of Sarnath, no where did he say that he didn't like 'dark" movies. Now as I bring back the subject of them, if I went to see a movie, I would not rate it on if it was a "dark" one. I would rate acting, plot, music, and depending on what kind of movie it is (reality fiction), I would also rate how real it actually is. Also, "Dark" movies are not "expressed" as you said. When someone blows up a huge spaceship they say "ooops" I don't hurry up and leave muttering to myself "Oh damn, it's not a dark movie." Listening to what you say you are a person who sits there and is happy beacuse after he explosion of the large spaceship happend there is a evil "Muhahaha." The occasional "ooops" adds the nice litte bit of comedy into a horror, or action movie. I have much more to say on this subject, so please post me a message about what criticizm you have about my ideas.

This is basicly diffrent thing, So I will reply. It seems you didn't read the posts, reread my reply again and see that I said "Sorry if you didn't meant it, I got that impression". And since you brought dark movies up again, I will explain it so that you understand better. Do you see little kids blowing space ships in Empire? No, it's not what he said after it, but it just made it look even more Disney movie than it already was. And what really makes me think you are self centered, is that you start to judge me as a person! Are you saying that Phantom Menaca was a dark movie? It certainly was not. Batman is a dark movie, and it has lot's of comedy in it, IE most of things with the Joker.

[Karpo_007]

What is "dark" about the Empire Strikes Back? Just because they are in space the whole time???

Double post or not, I will answer this one. First of all, The slaughtering of the Rebels in Hoth, Whole thing between Luke and Vader, Han Solo put to Ice for many years... It can't be that hard to see can it? Compare it to Ewoks throwing rocks at Storm Troopers, and you will know why Jedi isn't so dark. Of course Jedi has those elements in it to, but it' bsaicly limits to the end of movie when Palpatine tries to Turn Luke to Dark side.

[Eye of Sarnath]

Yeah, compare Ewoks to Luke to trying to kill his own father and that whole dark side thing. :roll:

[Karpo_007]

Im not sure what you are after, but yes, It makes it dark that Luke is forced to fight his own father. Altough like Yoda says, Luke is nowhere near ready to face Vader in the end of Empire.

[Ghidorah2000]

What is "dark" about the Empire Strikes Back? Just because they are in space the whole time???

Well, the fact that there were no, "Yippeeee!!!!" moments in it makes it pretty dark. You can't tell me Ep. 2 was totally dark when you had Jar Jar in it and C3PO acting like one of the Three Stooges. Here are a few examples:

1. Han Solo is tortured and encased in Carbonite. That doesn't scream of a "hooray!" moment.

2. Luke finds out the most evil entity in the known galaxy (Darth Vader) is his father. Plus his own father dismembers his hand. Yet another instance that doesn't scream a "hooray!!" moment either.

3. There are no cute little furry comedy reliefs. Or big huge fish headed Generals. Or Chewie doing the Tarzan call while swinging to an Imperial Walker.

4. Decapitation! (Albeit in a hallucinatory way, but still that was not in either ANH, although one guy does get his arm gruesomely sliced off by Obi-Wan, or ROTJ)

5. Darth Vader and his mighty Force Choke with the bad attitude to go along with it.

6. Overall, the movie ended on not a happy note but one of anxiety leaving us with the question of whether or not the Rebels would win against the empire instead of the big "Hooray!" moment at the end of ANH.

[Eye of Sarnath]

Im not sure what you are after, but yes, It makes it dark that Luke is forced to fight his own father. Altough like Yoda says, Luke is nowhere near ready to face Vader in the end of Empire.

I'm talking about the end of Jedi, not about Empire.

[Karpo_007]

Question was why empire is dark, and the darkest movie in the series. Gidorah put it the best.

[That Matt Guy]

Well there was "dark" stuff in the first one. Remember the charred remains of Luke's family?

[Burning In H2O]

Ahh yes....the star wars movies are PG, hence why they added that disney touch to some of it. Now i will apologize about calling you self centered, I don't know what has come over me, but still. Your veiws on movies are obscure from other people. I believe that a quote by George Lucas about all Star Wars movies is "I make these movies so childern can watch them, and not become corrupted." Again, the reason for the Disney touch. There are also many good movie that aren't dark. Infact I bet you that if i took a poll from my whole neighborhood, that most movies that are said are not "dark" movies. I know for a fact that a neighborhood favorite movie (and my favorite movie) is "The Last Castle," and there is nothing "dark" about it. Another favorite of mine and lots of people all over the whole James Bond Series. Not to sound strange, but i love them soo much, I know all of them like that back of my hand. There is no "darkness" in those. There are soo many good movies where there isn't a second of darkness, and by percentage abd educated guess of much research, i would say 78% of people would say a movie dosent have to be dark to be good. And that "dark" movies are no better than regular action. I will leave u at that for now.

[Eye of Sarnath]

He has a good point, you know. The James Bond movies are rarely dark. Yet they are one of the most popular movie series ever.

[Ghidorah2000]

But that doesn't mean the ESB is not the Darkest of all the films. There was an awful lot of really deep moments that weren't of the Funny Ha Ha variety. I can't tell you how much seeing those huge Imperial Walkers heading towards the Rebel Base scared me. That is a very foreboding moment because you know the Rebels are ill equipped to combat the brute force of the Empire. I believe the only true comic relief came from C3PO who was genuinely funny in ESB and didn't come across as one of the Three Stooges like he was in Episode Two. I cringe every time I see the "komedy" of C3PO in that movie. It's almost like they gave C3PO the designated Jar Jar type role.

[Karpo_007]

I never said movie has to be dark to be good. I am a big fan of James Bond series to, it is very light. I also like many comedies, like Blues Brothers and other classics like that. They are light, and great movies. But I do prefer darker movies like The Terminator over the lighter ones. You are also correct, The ligh heartness is Lucas' doing, and he has every right to do it. The reason why Empire is the darkest movie is, becase Lucas couldn't influence it as much as he would have wanted.

I do think that new episodes are not near the level of orignals, but I do think they are good entertainment. Still they won't become classics like the first trilogy, that Im pretty sure of.

[Eye of Sarnath]

Yes, but I don't think ESB is the best becsue it's dark. It has great effects, music, acting, and script and plot. All which are hard to find in just one movie.

[That Matt Guy]

There was a lot of funny stuff, like the Millenium Falcon constatnly falling apart and breaking down.

[Burning In H2O]

I am not getting at how "dark" movies are. i am getting at how good "dark" movies are compared to regular movies. My main point is that people enjoy regulat over "dark"

[Eye of Sarnath]

Yeah. Most people I know don't like movies just because they're dark or whatever. I don't judge a movie on how "dark" it is.

[That Matt Guy]

I guess so. People don't want to be depressed and shocked all the time.

[Eye of Sarnath]

Well, I know that i don't.

[Burning In H2O]

I never said movie has to be dark to be good. I am a big fan of James Bond series to, it is very light. I also like many comedies, like Blues Brothers and other classics like that. They are light, and great movies. But I do prefer darker movies like The Terminator over the lighter ones. You are also correct, The ligh heartness is Lucas' doing, and he has every right to do it. The reason why Empire is the darkest movie is, becase Lucas couldn't influence it as much as he would have wanted.

I do think that new episodes are not near the level of orignals, but I do think they are good entertainment. Still they won't become classics like the first trilogy, that Im pretty sure of.

I am happily seeing we are coming to an understanding, and i have no criticizm, beacsue i am also a very big Arnold fan. The only thing that still isn't accomplished is how a person could like a movie that is technically speaking "tone death". I think that even the scariest or most serious movies should have parts of comedy in them, beacsue otherwise you are watching 2 hours of seriousness, and if i want 2 hours of serious i would be liveing my life. I need no help from movies to bore me from endless seriousness.

[Karpo_007]

I don't know, who can say that Any of the James Bond movies is better than The Terminator? They always follow the same formula. They are ment to be only entertainment, not movies with deep plots. Im pretty sure Terminator and T2 did score just fine in box office. And the movie wouldn't be the same if it wasn't as dark as it is.

And it is true, Empire isn't bes in the series just because it's darkes, It's combnation of everything, acting, plot, writing, and of course special effects. Can someone honestly say that space battles look better in CGI ala New episodes?

[Eye of Sarnath]

I think the CG works very well in some places. For example, during the fight between Obi-Wan and Jango on Kamino, I thought that the CG was very well done.

I don't know, who can say that Any of the James Bond movies is better than The Terminator?

Goldeneye is a really really good movie. But my favorite movie of ALL TIME is T2. And you know why? The part at the end, when the T-800 shoots the T-1000 and says "hasta la vista, baby." Greatest moment ever in a movie, in my book.

[Burning In H2O]

I would be bored to death with so much seriousness in a movie! :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

[That Matt Guy]

Whats wrong with serious films?

[Karpo_007]

That scene was well made, but Im talking about the battle between Naboo forces and Trade federation for example. The first DeathStar battle looks much more "real" than the CGI ones.

[Eye of Sarnath]

I'll admit that the quality of the CG in the last scene varies from great to bad, but it certainly doesn't ruin the movie for me. The aliens in the cantina in ANH don't hold up to close inspection, but I think it's a great scene nevertheless.

[Burning In H2O]

The problem about serious movies is that they are boring. I wouldn't pay for somthing that you could se going on in school. besides food fights, but thats off topic.

[Karpo_007]

Someone sdhould remove the extra posts... I didn't think for a second that Terminator and Batman are boring, but each his own.

[Eye of Sarnath]

Because Terminator is an action movie.

[Leo656]

I liked the novelizations of Empire and Jedi, mostly because they refer to a subplot about Vader's hatred of Emperor palpatine and his plans to one day kill him and take his place. They only mentioned it briefly in the movies.

The Episode I novel is great for that reason, also, they go very much into the history of the Sith and the origins of the Sith and all that stuff. Maybe some people who didn't like Episodes I and II would like the novelizations better. A lot of stuff that was glossed over in the films is addressed in great detail, like Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn's disagreements over Anakin. Watching the movie I barely even knew they were disagreeing so harshly, but in the novel of Episode I they're barely even speaking to each other at one point because of it. I thought it gave the overall story a lot of depth.

[Karpo_007]

Hmm, It could be worth Looking into, but Lucas himself has said that only the movies are part of the Canon, so all the events that happened inthe novelization might not have happened in the future episodes.

[Knuckles]

I have a few comments to add since it's been a while since I posted on this thread.

Regarding my last post, no, it wasn't sarcastic, it was my opinion. I tend to get into big SW arguments, as so far the only one I have heard used that I take seriously was the one Karpo put forth. And I have only heard one person use that argument before, someone whose opinion on SW I value. Regarding "dark" and "light" movies, I tend to view both as equally important in SW. ANH was lighter, because it was the first part of the trilogy, and introduces a lot of stuff, and has a victory at the end. ESB, in classic trilogy form (like the second act of a three act play) ends in tragedy and is overall darker, as it needs to be. ROTJ is lighter because it's the final part and ends in a huge victory, so it needs to be light for the most part. I think the moods of the movies serve their purpose. The classic trilogy was great because it drew so much from mythology (classic themes like good vs. evil, light over dark, the hero's journey, saving a princess, redemption, life, death, and rebirth--the list goes on) and George Lucas did that intentionally, as he learned much from Joseph Campbell's work (he was a prominent mythology professor for those who don't know). He also incorporated things from such Kurosawa films as "The Seven Samurai." The new ones are fine for me for what they are, (as I explained in my first post on this topic) but I can see where people criticize them. I tend to not criticize movies too extensively, because it takes away from my enjoyment of movies in general if I do. Star Wars happens to have pretty much everything I look for in a movie or fictional work for that matter, so any complaints I have about any of it I don't put too much weight on. I like SW, I have been entertained by every movie in the series, so it's good for me. I actually like cheesy stuff, btw, (even though I think SW is not so cheesy) and often get bored to tears during oscar-winners. You got lightsabers, you got the Force, you got epic battles and entertaining characters--that alone is enough for me, personally. Of course the movies could be improved, but so could everything--there's no perfect movie after all, and sure they could have been improved in some ways rather easily. But they weren't. Oh well. I'm still entertained every time I watch.

[Ghidorah2000]

Well I for one do not know how old the rest of you are, but the new Trilogy can't hold a candle to the Old Trilogy. For those my age (30 and above) we remember the anticipation of each movie and we were never disappointed by the final results. With this Prequel Trilogy we get high expectations but it's disappointing to see that they are just not up to snuff with the quality of the old trilogy. I prefer Ewoks over Jar Jar Binks any day.

[Knuckles]

Like I said earlier, a lot of people had high expectations that simply could not be met for the prequels. I understand the level of disappointment when you've waited 16 years for another installment to come out, (my brother is of that generation) but no movies could match peoples' high expectations. Besides, and Lucas had said this a number of times, he makes the movies for kids--not the 30-somethings who grew up with the original. You can see it in the writing and in some of the character choices, (like the ill-conceived Jar Jar Binks). Lucas is not in it to get the 35-year-old fans to endlessly praise him for hours on end, he's in it to get the minute-long compliment from a little kid who was entertained by the movies. He basically presents the movies like the old Saturday afternoon serials of yesteryear, which many a youngun watched in those days. This is what it is, good or bad, but he wasn't looking to top or meet the originals.

[Karpo_007]

True, Noew Lucas is making family movies, but original trilogy were not so child orientated. I guess that is the biggest thing why most fans got disapointed. Episode 2 does a lot better than epiosode 1, so Episode 3 could very well be the best of new episodes.

[Leo656]

If the script summary I read was accurate, it definitely will be. :D

[Eye of Sarnath]

Yeah. People said that when they read script summaries for Episodes 1 and 2, too.

[Leo656]

And some of us liked I and II. The script summary I read for II (which I read in July 2001 on some dude's website who apparently worked for Lucas in some capacity) was nearly identical to the final product that was Episode II, right down to a few already-written bits of dialog, and I wasn't disappointed. That said, the script summary I read for III (which was very rough and brief, covering only the main plot events) left me with very high hopes for III.

[Reznorite420]

If the script summary I read was accurate, it definitely will be. :DWhere was this script summary that you speak of?

[Leo656]

Some website I found back in 2000 (I think it was then, I'd just graduated H.S. and had a lotta free time), I was looking for Star Wars movie spoilers, did a Google search, and found this site by a guy who said he worked on the sets of the movies. I forget the name of the site, sadly, or else I'd go back and read up on Episode III. All I know is that almost everything I read about II ended up in the movie. Supposedly Lucas wanted some things about the upcoming movies to be released to the public so he could listen to feedback from the fans, to avoid a backlash similar to that which accompanied Episode I. Almost all the fan comments I read on the site's feedback forum were positive, so I really don't see how the reaction to Episode II was as negative as it ended up being, other than the possibility that the acting really was mediocre enough to bring the whole script down. ((shrugs))

[donatedo]

What did you guys think of the first chapter. I think the animation is great and I dig t art, especially yoda

[Voltron]

It was great. Heh, I did 90 mph to get home to see it in time. It's good to see that Tartakovsky has dropped that "Samurai Jack" sloppy artistic art style to produce this.

[Bowser_Koopa]

when did you start getting this show? they are showing it in a few months here i can't believe it!.......i didn't like the way the green elf (yada?)extended his arm and the sword moved to his hand, it looked pretty cool till i saw that, it was a commercial/preview

[Voltron]

Bowser...please tell me you've seen Star Wars before...

[Bowser_Koopa]

ermm........as a kid............it was cool how darth vader was so realistic without the mask,,,,,,,,,i thought the rest was boring......... :D i only remember that scene and just a lil of some others U_U

[Voltron]

:dead: But...But its Star Wars! Everyone loves Star Wars! It's got endless appeal!

[Bowser_Koopa]

well what can i say.........i'll watch it someday :D

[Voltron]

you sound like my girlfriend. I'm in an argument with her right now about it.

[Leo656]

Heh my girlfriend never saw them either until she met me and now she's absolutely in love with everything Star Wars.

[Bowser_Koopa]

¬_¬...........just cuz i haven't seen star wars i'm compared to a girl friend :sweatdro:

[Kali]

¬_¬...........just cuz i haven't seen star wars i'm compared to a girl friend :sweatdro:
Aww, don't feel bad, I haven't seen it either. :)

[Bowser_Koopa]

but you could be someone's gilrfriend :lol: , thanks kali :wink:

[Karpo_007]

Just watched chapter 1 & 2 of this cartoon. Im writing because it made me realize something. I actually like the parts of the "Attack of the Clones" that doesn't include Hayden or Portman.

How many chapters are there supposed to be? Those too felt so short that I can only wonder how much story they can tell.

[Voltron]

I believe there are 9 or 10...but don't quote me on that..

[Bowser_Koopa]

don't exepect heretic to follow that petition :lol:

[cqb101]

I believe there are 9 or 10...but don't quote me on that..

There are 20 chapters.......The first DVD which has the first 10 shorts on it, is coming out before christmas this year....I can't wait!

[Mr. Snackpants]

I think ill wait and watch 'em on dvd, instead of wasting my time tuning in to watch it for 5 mins.