Do you think we will see the REAL OT turtles in the 2012 toon?

[TurtleFan2012]

I mean the 1987 turtles we grew up with, not the over-the-top morons you see in Turtles Forever. You know, those Mikey clones who would laugh at their own jokes. Ugh. :ohwell:

I hope the special do them justice.

[CyberCubed]

Other than the VA's, the OT Turtles in Turtles Forever WERE the real OT Turtles.

[Coola Yagami]

Other than the VA's, the OT Turtles in Turtles Forever WERE the real OT Turtles.

Not even close Cybercubed.

Hopefully since Rob Paulsen himself is there(as well as the other 3), he can help keep things under control so the Turtles aren't portrayed as being TOO goofy.

For some reason, I have faith that they will be potrayed way better here.

[MikeandRaph87]

Other than the VA's, the OT Turtles in Turtles Forever WERE the real OT Turtles.


Cubed,that was a bad joke. The turtles getting up at noon,afraid of death acting like they don't ever face situations like that,fighting living pizza and banannas instead of it being a b-movie joke on their tv,as said before laughing at their own jokes which were not clever like they always were but were just akward or dumb, and they never took much of anything seriously in the special which is way off. Those were not the '87 turtles but the way Laird wanted to see them. I do hope this timke around accuracy will be attempted. The voices help but their actions will speak louder than the voices of my childhood speaking their words.

[CyberCubed]

We're really going through this again? The Turtles acted the same way they did in the OT with the exception of that one scene of them crying.

[Galactus]

Cubed,that was a bad joke. The turtles getting up at noon,afraid of death acting like they don't ever face situations like that,fighting living pizza and banannas instead of it being a b-movie joke on their tv,as said before laughing at their own jokes which were not clever like they always were but were just akward or dumb, and they never took much of anything seriously in the special which is way off. Those were not the '87 turtles but the way Laird wanted to see them. I do hope this timke around accuracy will be attempted. The voices help but their actions will speak louder than the voices of my childhood speaking their words.

Were this argument fails is that most (not all) of that stuff actualy happened in the old show. Even the stuff that didn't such as the noogies and fighting mutant bananas wouldn't at all be out of place in the old show.

The argument also seems to ignore the great legnths 4Kids went to include specific stuff from the old show. Tons of easter eggs, even obscure things that only the die hard fans of the show would get. Even lines of dialogue ripped directly from the old show. That very much was the '87 turtles. I doubt Nickleodeon will make anywhere near that effort.

Now will the upcoming crossover focus on their less goofy aspects? I'd say that's fairly likely. I'm sure the creative staff is aware of that criticism of the special so likely wont go down the same route. However that would be the '87 turtles as fans want to remember them and probably no more less how they were than how they were portrayed in TF.

Also it seems that people think that Laird wrote Turtles Forever. He didn't as per the production notes on his blog he even asked the writers to tone down one or two goofy aspects saying something like "they weren't that bad".

[Coola Yagami]

We're really going through this again? The Turtles acted the same way they did in the OT with the exception of that one scene of them crying.

Except they didn't... I don't remember a time the Turtles were laughing whenever Shredder and Krang had some new plot. Usually they'd be all like 'we must stop Shredder! We have to save April! The world depends on us!'. Not stand around wasting time laughing at their own jokes and doing noogies.

It's like I said before, the show itself was goofy and silly, the Turtles themselves were as serious as possible within such a show, Raph in particular just rolled his eyes and went with it.

The worst offender was Leonardo. His whole thing was being the serious one and the wet blanket compared to everybody else, and here he was a laughing idiot like the rest of them.

[Jester]

Well Coola, I just think its obvious these people don't actually watch the OT and base what they know of it from faded memory or various youtube clips.

Wait....

[Galactus]

Except they didn't... I don't remember a time the Turtles were laughing whenever Shredder and Krang had some new plot. Usually they'd be all like 'we must stop Shredder! We have to save April! The world depends on us!'. Not stand around wasting time laughing at their own jokes and doing noogies.

Apart from laughing at the thought of Shredder abducting a rhino and warthog in "Return of the Shredder" or several other times they didn't take the Shredder or other villains seriously until they saw the seriousness of the situation. One of the worst instances being how the three turtles laughing at Donatello for being beaten by Slash in "Donatello Trashes Slash". Forgetting of course in their first encounter Slash pretty much kicked the crap out of all of 'em.

It's like I said before, the show itself was goofy and silly, the Turtles themselves were as serious as possible within such a show, Raph in particular just rolled his eyes and went with it.

They weren't all that serious when they were goofing around in April's apartment in "A Thing About Rats" or any number of episodes were they would do silly things just "because"

The worst offender was Leonardo. His whole thing was being the serious one and the wet blanket compared to everybody else, and here he was a laughing idiot like the rest of them.

Leo's OT leadership generaly consisted of simply being the first running into battle and maybe saying something like "let's go turtles" which we saw in TF.

Beyond that he'd be the one to break a group humour moment which again was reflected in TF. Twice when the group gets into the '87 dimension when he takes charge and even comes up the plans. I suppose fans were upset he didn't bark out battle tactics like in "Enter the Shredder" but he hardly ever did that in the show.

[Refractive Reflections]

We're really going through this again? The Turtles acted the same way they did in the OT with the exception of that one scene of them crying.

A significant proportion of us know that movie "Turtles Forever" can't go without 5 minutes in mocking/deriding the OT Turtles. It's like a relentless insult comic that bases its comedy on the same topic over and over and over again, so obviously the 4Kids staff are insinuating something negative about them with most of the comedy in the movie based on the expense of the OT Turtles.

Anyways though, if it makes you happy CyberCubed have the last word. It's just something we have to disagree on.
I mean the 1987 turtles we grew up with, not the over-the-top morons you see in Turtles Forever. You know, those Mikey clones who would laugh at their own jokes. Ugh. :ohwell:

I hope the special do them justice.

As Coola Yagami said, with the original VAs there with Rob Paulsen, I'm pretty sure the OT Turtles will be fairly and more accurately represented in the Nick series. (In "Turtles Forever", no one from the original OT staff was consulted aside from the whole "labor union" issue.)

[TurtleFan2012]

We're really going through this again? The Turtles acted the same way they did in the OT with the exception of that one scene of them crying.

Other than the VA's, the OT Turtles in Turtles Forever WERE the real OT Turtles.

They acted the same way they did in the OT, you say? Uh huh......riiiiight.
The turtles in that movie were laughing idiots. They were never THAT clownish. I have seen every episode of the show.
Leo, Don, and Ralph didn't seem right to me in Turtles Forever. It's not the voices, it's their actions and decisions.

I can't wait to see the REAL 1987 Leo and Don, not a couple of noogie-loving Mikeys.

[Galactus]

A significant proportion of us know that movie "Turtles Forever" can't go without 5 minutes in mocking/deriding the OT Turtles. It's like a relentless insult comic that bases its comedy on the same topic over and over and over again, so obviously the 4Kids staff are insinuating something negative about them with most of the comedy in the movie based on the expense of the OT Turtles.

Kind of like how any media bringing up the Dick Sprang era of Batman is seemingly deriding it and not affectionately poking fun at its sillyness. :roll:

It baffles me that peope think 4Kids went to all the trouble of making the characters and their world so visualy correct right down the trash in the streets. The fact that they had to have watched so much of the old show to actualy work in obscure stuff for easter eggs and lines of dialogue, so again they went to all that effort simply insult it?

Forgetting that the OT's characters wackyness that kept saving the day why is it that people can't get that if anything it was at the humour a lot of times was at the expense of their own creation. Was the joke overdone? Somewhat but there's tons of examples to show why it's an accurate portrayal. Seriously it seems like Fred Wolf fans can't take any kind of knock to the show even a light hearted affectionate one.

As Coola Yagami said, with the original VAs there with Rob Paulsen, I'm pretty sure the OT Turtles will be fairly and more accurately represented in the Nick series. (In "Turtles Forever", no one from the original OT staff was consulted aside from the whole "labor union" issue.)

Yes because VA have that much creative input.

If 4Kids worked with SAG actors and they were in TF they would have just showed up and delivered their lines as written with a few ad libs thrown in. The whole thing would have been exactly the same.

[The Big Bad]

They acted the same way they did in the OT, you say? Uh huh......riiiiight.
The turtles in that movie were laughing idiots. They were never THAT clownish. I have seen every episode of the show.
Leo, Don, and Ralph didn't seem right to me in Turtles Forever. It's not the voices, it's their actions and decisions.

I can't wait to see the REAL 1987 Leo and Don, not a couple of noogie-loving Mikeys.

Hey, remember that time, Leonardo threw lipstick at the wall of April apartment for no damn reason, or that time where they donned clothes just to dance in the streets in broad daylight?

An argument can be made that the nature of some of the jokes in Turtles Forever were not of the sort that would have been made in the old show--the noogies, for example. But if the turtles are "laughing idiots" in Turtles Forever, it's because they were so in the original cartoon.

[BubblyShell22]

I didn't think the OT Turtles were THAT bad in TF at all. Sure, the humor was exaggerated at times, but the only issue I had was when they were crying as I don't think they would have done that.

And as for fears about Nick portraying them correctly, I don't think we need to worry. The writers have been great with the episodes so far, and I think they'll do a tremendous job of bringing us a great crossover.

[CyberCubed]

A significant proportion of us know that movie "Turtles Forever" can't go without 5 minutes in mocking/deriding the OT Turtles. It's like a relentless insult comic that bases its comedy on the same topic over and over and over again, so obviously the 4Kids staff are insinuating something negative about them with most of the comedy in the movie based on the expense of the OT Turtles=

What did they make fun of? The Turtles initials on their belts? The lameness of the Turtle Blimp? Of course they did, because those things ARE funny and silly.

And the Turtles fighting walking bananas isn't out of place at all. I could have easily seen Mr. Ogg creating something like that in his episode. And Mike did fight a pizza who wanted to eat him as an illusion created by a mad scientist in one episode.

[MikeandRaph87]

A significant proportion of us know that movie "Turtles Forever" can't go without 5 minutes in mocking/deriding the OT Turtles. It's like a relentless insult comic that bases its comedy on the same topic over and over and over again, so obviously the 4Kids staff are insinuating something negative about them with most of the comedy in the movie based on the expense of the OT Turtles.

Anyways though, if it makes you happy CyberCubed have the last word. It's just something we have to disagree on.


As Coola Yagami said, with the original VAs there with Rob Paulsen, I'm pretty sure the OT Turtles will be fairly and more accurately represented in the Nick series. (In "Turtles Forever", no one from the original OT staff was consulted aside from the whole "labor union" issue.)

^ This! Great post!

What kind of plot would bring the '87 turtles into contact with the '12 turtles? I am curious to what plot device would be used in order for this to happen.

[cammy85]

The OT Turtles were probably only crying because they were finally up against a force they couldn't stop themselves. And it took 12 Turtles, Shredder, Splinter and Karai to get giant Ch'rell into the path of the beam.

[Coola Yagami]

The turtles still took stuff seriously. The tf movie made it seem they never did at all. Yeah they might laugh or diss some of shredders lamer plans but they didn't stand around laughing and joking until splinter demanded they stfu and do something about it. They also weren't laughing and acting silly in their free time either. And noogies are not a staple in the show. It's like having the 2k3 tmnt guest star and have Raph constantly say 'shellacious!!' Cuz we all knew he always said that in the 2k3 series right? They didn't need to throw in a fake routine in there.

As annoying as phealous is, his review was spot on. His joke was repetitive but it's because the movie also kept nailing it into the ground.

Not to mention Leo was the serious one and Don was serious when it came to science and didn't just grab wires and tie them up randomly. Or confuse a wrench with a hammer. Or say science isn't just about facts you know. Leo had no character in the movie almost.

And finally yeah they laughed at the rhino and warthog incident cuz it sounded stupid. It's like we must find shredder oh and btw some zoo animals were stolen. Um.. Wtf April? Random? It wasn't until she mentioned that robots took them that they got serious and decided to check it out. They didn't stand around laughing and doing noogies at each other until April got fed up and demanded they got serious.

[ABrown]

The characters from the original cartoon that were featured in Turtles Forever were (in my opinion) the closest thing that will ever be to the version of them in the original cartoon. Were they exact? No, absolutely not. But they were close as shell to that version of the characters.

[Coola Yagami]

The characters from the original cartoon that were featured in Turtles Forever were (in my opinion) the closest thing that will ever be to the version of them in the original cartoon. Were they exact? No, absolutely not. But they were close as shell to that version of the characters.

Hopefully not. Hopefully the 2012 version will get the characters right. And if they do that will just make their portrayal in TF seem that much worse.

[Jester]

Though I agree with you Coola, there were times, right in the pilot, where April did tell the Turtles to, "get serious for a minute."

[gobo]

Do you think we will see the REAL OT turtles in the 2012 toon?
I doubt it, but maybe.

[TurtleFan2012]

Hey, remember that time, Leonardo threw lipstick at the wall of April apartment for no damn reason, or that time where they donned clothes just to dance in the streets in broad daylight?

An argument can be made that the nature of some of the jokes in Turtles Forever were not of the sort that would have been made in the old show--the noogies, for example. But if the turtles are "laughing idiots" in Turtles Forever, it's because they were so in the original cartoon.

Sure they laugh, but not at every damn joke they make. As a matter of fact, they usually laugh AFTER completing a mission, not in the middle of it. I don't remember all 4 of them laughing while being tied up or giggling while Shredder is pointing a deadly gun at them. That would be kinda awkward and stupid.


The turtles still took stuff seriously. The tf movie made it seem they never did at all. Yeah they might laugh or diss some of shredders lamer plans but they didn't stand around laughing and joking until splinter demanded they stfu and do something about it. They also weren't laughing and acting silly in their free time either. And noogies are not a staple in the show. It's like having the 2k3 tmnt guest star and have Raph constantly say 'shellacious!!' Cuz we all knew he always said that in the 2k3 series right? They didn't need to throw in a fake routine in there.

As annoying as phealous is, his review was spot on. His joke was repetitive but it's because the movie also kept nailing it into the ground.

Not to mention Leo was the serious one and Don was serious when it came to science and didn't just grab wires and tie them up randomly. Or confuse a wrench with a hammer. Or say science isn't just about facts you know. Leo had no character in the movie almost.

And finally yeah they laughed at the rhino and warthog incident cuz it sounded stupid. It's like we must find shredder oh and btw some zoo animals were stolen. Um.. Wtf April? Random? It wasn't until she mentioned that robots took them that they got serious and decided to check it out. They didn't stand around laughing and doing noogies at each other until April got fed up and demanded they got serious.

Bingo! I love this guy! There were times I wanted to tell the turtles in Turtles Forever to stfu. The turtles in the 1987 show actually made me laugh.

[gobo]

Unless Nick & Fred Wolf have a deal that says Nick can append to Wolf's continuity, we can expect another group of imitators, just with the authentic voices this time.

[Luckyday]

Man, everybody seem to be so work about this. Keep in mind folks that goofiness of the OT crew was to set them apart from the 2k3 just like how the mirage turtles were portray to be as gritty as **** to make them different from the rest of incarnations. What other traits are they're suppose to show to make them different then the other versions.?

[Jester]

Man, everybody seem to be so work about this. Keep in mind folks that goofiness of the OT crew was to set them apart from the 2k3 just like how the mirage turtles were portray to be as gritty as **** to make them different from the rest of incarnations. What other traits are they're suppose to show to make them different then the other versions.?
I don't know...personalities?

Seriously, just because they have the same basic archetypes doesn't mean there aren't distinctions between the way the FW series executed them and the way the 4Kids series did.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

Of course there are distinctions. Ironically, Nick has been better to Michelangelo than most of the other incarnations. He's still the goofy little brother, but they've made it a point that he's eccentric/nonsensical, NOT stupid, whereas the 2003 series had him acting like a retard, and the 2007 movie had him acting like a pothead. To me, the 2003 series TMNT are pretty much the Mirage turtles until you compare them with the Mirage turtles side by side.

[Luckyday]

My point is that it was fun seeing them clash with each other, so if they're not going to have any kind of tone thats sets them apart then way bother having a crossover at all?

[Jester]

The tones of the series WERE different enough that they could show that without resorting to basically making a joke of the FW Turtles.

[cammy85]

I hope they're treated better this time too. OT Leonardo sorta explained their behavior in Turtles Forever when he said they've beaten Shredder hundreds of times so they falsely assumed it shouldn't be too hard They loosened up a bit when told that Ch'rell/Shredder was deadlier than their Shredder.

[Luckyday]

The tones of the series WERE different enough that they could show that without resorting to basically making a joke of the FW Turtles.

How should they be portray by not being goofy and still be different? WHAT is the tone that makes them different?

[Jester]

The biggest issue if they made them goofy in a way that the FW Turtles weren't goofy. The only thing they got half way right was the 4th wall breaking.

[TurtleFan2012]

One guy mentioned that the writers of Turtles Forever put in a lot of effort by making references to the OT show and having cameos. I hate to be harsh, but those things wouldn't make us forget about the 4 Mikey clones. Don't get me wrong, the cameos and references are neat.

Imagine if they did this with Batman. A writer can make as many Batman references and homages in a crossover story, but if Batman is portayed as a sniveling coward or an exaggerated version of himself, readers will frown. It wouldn't matter if Batman saved the day at the end of the story.

[Galactus]

One guy mentioned that the writers of Turtles Forever put in a lot of effort by making references to the OT show and having cameos. I hate to be harsh, but those things wouldn't make us forget about the 4 Mikey clones. Don't get me wrong, the cameos and references are neat.

My points was they did a lot more than that. They took specific scenes and even lines of dialogue from the Fred Wolf show. It's hard to argue that OT Leo wouldn't say this or OT Don wouldn't do that when those things were taken directly from '87 show.

Like I also stated lets not pretend that in the OT the turtles didn't all morph into one character when the plot needed it to. Again I gave specific examples of this happening and I can think of more if you like.

My second point was that the belief from some fans of the Fred Wolf show that they were making grave insults to the '87 show and that whole thing was just to knock the old show to make their own look better is stupid. To include so many references and call backs and visualy get every detail of the '87 characters and world right (when they didn't even spend that effort getting their own to look right) they must have watched an awful lot of the show and gone to a lot of effort. Do you really believe they did all that just knock the old show? Really?

Imagine if they did this with Batman. A writer can make as many Batman references and homages in a crossover story, but if Batman is portayed as a sniveling coward or an exaggerated version of himself, readers will frown. It wouldn't matter if Batman saved the day at the end of the story.

No version of Batman to my knowledge has ever had him act like a coward whereas it happened a few times in the OT. Either as a result of some kind contivance like a weird ray like in "Bebop & Rocksteady Conquer the Universe" or simply weird writing like in "Snakes Alive" were Leo abandons the battle due to his cowardice.

Also plenty of modern depictions of the Camp era Batman or the Dick Sprang comic era Batman get exaggerated. Most fans tend to see it as a good natured rib as opposed a grave insult that fans saw TF as.

[Coola Yagami]

I wonder what will happen if the turtles were portrayed the right way in the 2012 show. Will cybercubed say they were portrayed wrong and that the tf version was right?

[Luckyday]

I am just wondering how they're going to do it while still making them act distinctly different from the 2012. I still want them to clash with each other.

[Refractive Reflections]

Kind of like how any media bringing up the Dick Sprang era of Batman is seemingly deriding it and not affectionately poking fun at its sillyness. :roll:

It baffles me that peope think 4Kids went to all the trouble of making the characters and their world so visualy correct right down the trash in the streets. The fact that they had to have watched so much of the old show to actualy work in obscure stuff for easter eggs and lines of dialogue, so again they went to all that effort simply insult it?

Forgetting that the OT's characters wackyness that kept saving the day why is it that people can't get that if anything it was at the humour a lot of times was at the expense of their own creation. Was the joke overdone? Somewhat but there's tons of examples to show why it's an accurate portrayal. Seriously it seems like Fred Wolf fans can't take any kind of knock to the show even a light hearted affectionate one.


With your off-topic logic of the past (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1079673&postcount=127) Galactus, by giving me an art imagery response for a character behavior/depiction issue I proposed earlier, it was futile for me to even continue that earlier discussion. Now with this similar off-topic response, it just validates it even further of how futile it is for me to bring it up.

...But whatever you want Galactus... :ohwell:


Anyways...
If anybody is wanting to discuss this topic, and interested in the position of others' opinions on this topic there was one of a few threads about it: http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=42029


I'm just going to restate my position, as I've said before and leave it as that:
LOL, well consider me as part of that "minority" then... :lol:

While I enjoy "Turtles Forever" by itself and do like to watch it. I do feel that the 4Kids writers unfairly portrayed the OT Turtles. But then again, I'm not too surprised since there was sometimes a snide hint toward most references to the OT in the 4Kids show. The 4Kids show was good, but the OT references were lowbrow. I know others will say that 4Kids were "complimenting" the OT, but when you compare the OT references of 4Kids to Nick. Well...there seems to be a tinge of distaste of the OT with 4Kids. (i.e. Raph smacking Michelangelo everytime he tries to say "Cowabunga!")

It's somewhat annoying when some say that "Turtles Forever" accurately depicted the OT Turtles characters when its more a Flanderization of them. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization With the 4kids Turtles lecturing the OT Turtles so often, it made the OT Turtles come across to be just as incompetent as Bebop and Rocksteady. Especially when this incompetence is pointed out again and again and again in the movie.

Yes, the OT Turtles had obvious slapstick fighting methods, but they almost always took the threats by any villain seriously in the original show and didn't laugh it off or cower away as in "Turtles Forever". Seasons 1, 7, 8-10 (Red Sky Seasons) at least minimally prove that.

[The Big Bad]

The turtles still took stuff seriously. The tf movie made it seem they never did at all. Yeah they might laugh or diss some of shredders lamer plans but they didn't stand around laughing and joking until splinter demanded they stfu and do something about it.

And yet, saying that that's all the 1988 Turtles (to distinguish them from the Fred Wolf turtles--) did was joke is a mischaracterization of their portrayal in the film. Take any of the fight scenes for example: the '88 turtles take for the most part just as seriously as their counterparts, and the moments when they don't are notable because they are exceptional.

What's more, I could mention moments in the original cartoon, when they would indeed stand around and do nothing (which doesn't actually happen in Turtles Forever--once the threat is established, they don't need persuading to go after the Shredder), the most notable being in "Turtle Tracks", where the turtles, who have joined April in her investigation of the rash of theft by ninjas, decide to abandon their search after finding a pizza shop. This is the first episode.

[Galactus]

With your off-topic logic of the past (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1079673&postcount=127) Galactus, by giving me an art imagery response for a character behavior/depiction issue I proposed earlier, it was futile for me to even continue that earlier discussion. Now with this similar off-topic response, it just validates it even further of how futile it is for me to bring it up.

...But whatever you want Galactus... :ohwell:

It's really not going "off topic" to draw a comparison with another property if that's what you're referring to.

I don't really know what you're trying to get at. This thread is a discussion involving the characterisation of the '87 turtles in Turtlles Forever. Obviously my opinion hasn't changed since the last time I contributed to a discussion on this subject and obviously neither has yours.

Regardless I must (again) reiterate how silly it sounds that people believe 4kids made this special and go through all that money and effort with the intention of trolling fans of the Fred Wolf show.

I'm just going to restate my position, as I've said before and leave it as that:

Just skimming over that thread again it sounds to me that yourself and others who didn't care for the characterisation of the '87 turtles don't really want to debate with anyone and get angry if people point out specific instances that the Fred Wolf turtles did act similarly or exactly like they did in Turtles Forever.

I wonder what will happen if the turtles were portrayed the right way in the 2012 show. Will cybercubed say they were portrayed wrong and that the tf version was right?

The Fred Wolf characters and continuity was extremely malleable so barring something extreme I don't think there's much "right" or "wrong" when it comes to portraying them.

Obviously a lot of fans would prefer the characters to be characterised like in "Shredder and Splintered" and "Splinter No More" as opposed to how they were in "Snakes Alive" and "Donatello's Badd Time" but both are equaly valid takes on the Fred Wolf show.

I still stand by that given that we're apparently only getting the four turtles Nickleodeon wont be putting in so much effort to really portray the overall '87 show even if the turtles are characterised in the way most fans would like to remember them.

I hope that it is what fans want but given the constant whining about what was a complete valentine for the 80s show I would get an inward chuckle if Nickleodeon did focus on the goofier aspects in the similar manner to 4kids.

[Jester]

And why would you ask someone if they were autistic on a tmnt forum? That's damn rude.
Rude, but sadly I've often wondered that about Cubed.

...in "Turtle Tracks", where the turtles, who have joined April in her investigation of the rash of theft by ninjas, decide to abandon their search after finding a pizza shop. This is the first episode.
But their searching LEAD them to Ninja Pizza.

I hope that it is what fans want but given the constant whining about what was a complete valentine for the 80s show I would get an inward chuckle if Nickleodeon did focus on the goofier aspects in the similar manner to 4kids.
Complete valentine? Really? Ok...sure.

I'm not saying that the 4Kids staff was "trolling" the FW Turtles, but it's obvious that they can't write the comedy the same way that the FW writers could. Even in their own series the jokes were often groaners. Now turning them loose on the FW Turtles and you're bound to have seemingly off characters. That and the constant eye rolling, snarking, and general meanspiritedness exhibited by the 4Kids Turtles against the FW Crew made it come off poorly. Maybe that was the point. I mean 4Kids Splinter does confront his own sons about their treatment of their alternates.

Man, this thread makes me wanna pop in Turtles Forever and pick out moments I think are "out of character" and see if I can find a suitable example of it in the FW series.

[Galactus]

But their searching LEAD them to Ninja Pizza.

And they stayed there rather than continue the search.

Complete valentine? Really? Ok...sure.

We got The turtles, Splinter, April, Shredder, Krang, Foot Soldiers, The Technodrome, the portal, the Lair, the Van, the blimp. Pretty much all the major players and elements of the old show all created in a detail no one really expected.

We got small cameos to Irma, Vernon, the gun toting bag lady and the boom box guy and the various punks from the pilot. Channel Six obscure locations like the seldom seen Technodrome cockpit, the ninja themed street, the street with phone booth elevator.

We got nods to episodes like "Turtle Tracks", "Return of the Shredder", "Beware the Lotus", "Leonardo Lightens Up", "Raphael Knocks 'em Dead" to name a few

I'd say that's more than enough to satisfy a fan of the 1987 show.

I'm not saying that the 4Kids staff was "trolling" the FW Turtles

You may not be arguing that but plenty people have argued that vehemently. Even in this thread that has been put forward.

Maybe that was the point. I mean 4Kids Splinter does confront his own sons about their treatment of their alternates.

That was the point. It's weird that people can't see that. Especialy as the wackiness of the 80s turtles continualy saved the day.

[CyberCubed]

LOL @ people who think I don't love the OT. As if my constant posts about it don't say enough, I rewatch the entire series every 2 years, and probably will continue to do so for the rest of my life.

The Turtles had many moments of stupidity in the OT and this is coming from someone who loves the series.

[Tora]

So does anyone think that they OT will come out of the TV and look like Cartoons or will the OT be rendered in CGI like the 2012 Turtles?

[snake]

So does anyone think that they OT will come out of the TV and look like Cartoons or will the OT be rendered in CGI like the 2012 Turtles?

They'll look odd in CG, and mix the old aniamtion with the new CG turtles? That'll look odd too, so I wonder how they tackle this issue.

[CowabungaMikey]

I'm just waiting for a 2003 meets 2012 special.

2003: What the shell?
2012: :ohwell: *dumb sound*

[Coola Yagami]

That was a direct nod to when he did the exact same thing in "Leonardo Lightens Up". The recreated the look straight from that episode.

Yet another example of someone criticising how "wrong" something from the OT is portrayed when it's actualy directly from the old show.

It's hardly suprising though. We're talking about a character that diffuses a bomb by cutting a wire because it's the same colour as his bandana. His science is not all about facts.



Wow. I'm gonna have to see that episode again.

[Machias Banshee]

Okay... I cleaned out all the off-topic garbage.

Alliance, stop trolling the 4Kids turtle subforums and threads. It's well known you don't like it, but you don't have to constantly trash it and it's fans. Knock it off before you get more than a warning..

[Raphaeline]

So there will be a new crossover with this time the Nick turtles and the ones of 87? in an independant episode like Turtles forever? when?

It would look really strange to mix the 2D style with 3D style.

[BubblyShell22]

It will be a one hour special and will be the first episode of season 2. I so can't wait to see what Nick cooks up. I think they'll do a good job of crossing over the FW Turtles and the Nick Turtles.

[TurtleFan2012]

It will be a one hour special and will be the first episode of season 2. I so can't wait to see what Nick cooks up. I think they'll do a good job of crossing over the FW Turtles and the Nick Turtles.

If they have the OT battle music in the special, I would get excited like a school girl. Any word on James Avery and Pat Fraley? I would love to see a cgi version of 87 toon shredder and Krang.

[METALHEAD]

i love the OT turtles and all

but...

i wanna see more of the mirage turtles in the new nick tmnt...

god i can only imagine how wonderful they would look in CGI MIRAGE style turtles....

[Konchadunga]

To restate a point in a recent thread, I think the so-called Fred Wolf turtles in Turtles Forever actually resemble the movie turtles a lot more. (Barring the fourth movie.) This is because the movie turtles truly were more incessantly giddy and prone to clowning around even in dire situations. So yeah; if it had actually been them in TF, I could see one or two jokes about them getting attacked while trying something silly, and wondering why their enemies don't just give them time to do it.

Yet that really isn't how the Fred Wolf turtles approached situations. Their problem was really the opposite; they acted serious when threatened, but they fought like clowns. It worked, and so whatever, but I still didn't like it. At least TF got that right, but their goofy attitude was wrong from the start, and worse each time it kept going.

I'm not entirely convinced 4Kids intentionally insulted the Fred Wolf series. Yes; there was a lot of fanservice, and they got some things right, like Fred Wolf Raph's Fourth Wall humor, and Fred Wolf Shredder and Krang's bickering. (Though I call bull**** on them losing to an utrom in hand-to-hand combat.) However, 4Kids has many deep flaws that infect the movie badly. Their TMNT show's humor always tended to be annoying sooner than funny, they're infamous for just not caring about what they adapt (including the Mirage series, based on Peter Laird's journals of his angry reprimands to their writers), and the whole series had taken a massive turn for the stupid for three seasons leading up. Considering they weren't even getting their own turtle show right by that point, it's not hard to see why they'd botch someone else's. Forgetting accuracy for a moment, TF is a let down simply for being an annoying movie full of stupid plotholes and deus ex machinas.

Now, back on topic: Will the 2012 show get them better? Well; if insults are a factor, I don't think this show is likely to do that, since it has a much more positive attitude toward (most of) the Fred Wolf era than Peter Laird did. I (and many others) also find this show's humor to be much better than 4Kids' show's (Also, much better than Nieli's prior work on Teen Titans), which is a plus for diverse character humor. (That's a good theory on why TF ended up making "five Mikeys;" because Mikey's man-child antics were close to the only type of humor they'd had any practice doing.) So I think they're in better hands. I have to wonder, though, if they'd end up having too few opportunities for jokes, since it seems like they might be sliding this series further and further into the mold of the Fred Wolf series anyway.

[pannoni1]

With regards to animation, we've seen a 2D Michelangelo in Nick so its not like there can't be 2D animation. That said, while I don't expect the old settings to appear again (Original Lair, Technodrome, Channel 6, etc), the personalities should be much closer to the OT compared to 4kids' stereotypical rendition. One question is how the plot will tie in to the Season 1 finale since this is expected to be the most dramatic moment in the series thus far. That said, with the original VAs and the greater Fred Wolf elements so far in the Nick series should satisfy most OT aficionados.

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

So is this an actual event that will happen, or are we speaking "What if" on the scenario?
I would think it's too early for them to be crossing "dimensions" again to meet up with the original incarnations.

We're really going through this again? The Turtles acted the same way they did in the OT with the exception of that one scene of them crying.

This one?
dKLBUBN_org

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah... it can be pretty well quantified that there was stuff even goofier than what was shown of the OT TMNT in Turtles Forever in the actual OT TMNT.

[BubblyShell22]

So is this an actual event that will happen, or are we speaking "What if" on the scenario?
I would think it's too early for them to be crossing "dimensions" again to meet up with the original incarnations.



This one?
dKLBUBN_org

It's an actual event that'll be on the season 2 premiere of the Nick TMNT cartoon.

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

I actually wanted to find a gif of that horrible scene of Don's water hose crying to go along with it haha

[Konchadunga]

Yeah... it can be pretty well quantified that there was stuff even goofier than what was shown of the OT TMNT in Turtles Forever in the actual OT TMNT.

Goofy is fine. Cringe-worthily annoying, though, is something you should just avoid. If you find you can't write characters in a way that isn't, then maybe you really shouldn't be writing them, and that goes for both the FW Turtles, and 4Kids Mikey.

[The Sewer Lord]

Gumball (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1942683/?ref_=sr_6) did it.


----


Anyway, I don't see how TF didn't potray them the right way.
What most people don't understand is that the OT was most popular during it's fourth, fifth and sixth season. Back then, the turtles were HUGELY dumbded down from their original three seasons.

So, I can get people complaining if they're talking about the turtles from the first three seasons, but those other ones are even worse than in TF.

[Konchadunga]

Gumball (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1942683/?ref_=sr_6) did it.


----


Anyway, I don't see how TF didn't potray them the right way.
What most people don't understand is that the OT was most popular during it's fourth, fifth and sixth season. Back then, the turtles were HUGELY dumbded down from their original three seasons.

So, I can get people complaining if they're talking about the turtles from the first three seasons, but those other ones are even worse than in TF.

I've watched those other seasons, and as bad as they are in many ways, the Turtles themselves aren't--by which I mean their personalities; their fighting really is crap. The dumbing down occurred mostly in the advertising and peripheral media, which never shut up about pizza, ooze, cowabunga, and the like. Yet I've challenged TF-apologists to cite specific examples of the Turtles making dumb about a threat, all acting like Mikey, and crying under pressure during the OT, and none of them have ever been able to do it. Most TF-apologists admit to not being fans of the OT, so they aren't the best judges.

[Leo656]

Them's some broad strokes you're paintin' with, friend. :P

More accurate to say, "Some of the people who like 'Turtles Forever' have a slight preference for 2K3 over the OT in general, thus are less offended by the blatant caricature the versions of the OT TMNT were clearly meant to be in this representation." :P

[Konchadunga]

I, for one, have a more than slight preference for the 4Kids show over the OT, but it doesn't matter. Stupid and annoying is just stupid and annoying, and extends far beyond the Fred Wolf turtles in that movie. The last three seasons of the 4Kids show removed just about any dignity it had, and TF just failed to bring much of it back. It's not just the portrayal of the Fred Wolf turtles that bothers me about the movie; almost all aspects of it feel like a bad fanfiction.

For example, contrived deux ex machinas for warping. I don't remember anything as lame as a dimensional teleporter made from a flashlight (nor Don saying science relied on guesswork and positive thinking to make such things) or a galactic Google search with a built-in retrieval beam in the OT, but even if they were, either they shouldn't have still worked in the 2003 universe, or the latter should have at least given the OT villains some sort of leg up, instead of just being used to bring back Ch'rel and humiliate them. Also, how is it that OT Don can build a working teleporter from a flashlight, but somehow the lasers he built on the Turtlevan out of parts from Stockman's lab suddenly don't hurt villains? What possible excuse is there for that?

Also, plotholes; so many I'll count them:
1) How did the OT Turtles get out of the Technodrome when it warped to the 4Kids universe?
2) How did Karai know that Ch'rel was back, underground, in a giant Christmas ornament?
3) For that matter, why was Karai still loyal to him? I thought that bit had been closed as of the end of the Teenage Mutant Naruto Turtles arc, and then proven to have stayed closed when she fought against the cyber Shredder; knowing he was Ch'rel's ordered successor.
4) Why was Ch'rel impressed by mutagen? Utroms knew about it, as well as how to make it, for a long time.
5) Where the shell is everyone in the Mirage universe?! I've been to New York, and nowhere were the streets just barren at night, but even if I could buy that in that one place, the people were just sleeping, the Technodrome rampaging would have woken them up. There wasn't even any evidence of the commotion caused by them fleeing it, and in New York, that many people could not have fled all at once without many of them being gridlocked.
6) Finally, and I get that this is meta, but what was Ch'rel's plan supposed to be? Since the only way for him to understand that one universe inspires another is by knowing it's all fiction, and he hoped to erase it all by killing the Turtles, what was stopping Eastman and Laird from just stopping him from doing it? Was he aware of them? Could he come out and kill them? Were they aware that someone was alive in their graphic novel and it was trying to rewrite itself?

Again, I know this is meta and you might argue I shouldn't be thinking about it, but I retort that the writers of the movie shouldn't have gone there for that very reason. Their whole cosmology is just dumb, and in my opinion, they didn't achieve Rule of Funny or Rule of Cool nearly enough to make that forgivable; in practice they just came off as annoying and cocky.

Turtles Forever was worth watching once for its occasional good joke and action scenes, but overall I still see it as either something I could have done a lot better, or a cool idea on paper that should have remained just that. It happened at a time when I was through giving the 4Kids show any more chances, and it had long-since lost any pretense of seriousness and Mirage-faithfulness being its justification for eschewing the OT. At the beginning of that show's run, I was overjoyed to see a take on the TMNT where they actually fought, the villains were menacing, April wasn't a worthless damsel in distress, and the whole universe was not an ever-expanding self-parody. I loved seeing DoctorDrink declare the 4Kids show to be better, despite his nostalgia. Yet by the time that movie came out, that score was settled, and the ones I wanted to see one-upped were Peter Laird and what was left of his show. I wanted someone to smack them for their hypocrisy with "Wait a minute; everything from Fred Wolf is off limits just because it's Fred Wolf, but somehow stuff from Naruto and The Jetsons and Megaman: NT Warrior is fine?! That crap wasn't in Mirage either!"

Resentiment never makes good art, in my opinion. Some people like dada, and grunge, and indie-rock, because apparently they share their purveyors' opinions that making art to spite something old and "stupid" is a good idea, but I don't. Most of the stuff that's become popular and commercialized throughout history became that way specifically because people liked it, and to rebel against popular opinion and established standards of quality is to be self-centered and self-righteous. The 4Kids series was fun not because it went out of its way to avoid becoming like the Fred Wolf series, but because it did so to become like the Mirage series. Until it didn't. Starting with Shredder being an alien, and thus falling again into the Big Bad trope the Fred Wolf show established, the show's quality slipped, and mostly kept slipping the further it went. This says to me that in the end, Laird really didn't know how to make a great original show; only to take his own ego and prior ideas as far as they'd go, and struggle to go any farther.

[Leo656]

I still see it as either something I could have done a lot better

I'd argue that a lot of the other grievances are a matter of taste mixed with how deeply one is willing to look into the writing of a kids show. But that sentence just miffs me whenever anyone says that. "This is bad because it's not how *I* would have done it" just always rubs me the wrong way for some reason as a criticism. I know that wasn't your main point, just letting you know it can be construed as accidentally pretentious. :P Especially in this case, since I would think (without bothering to check) that before and since TF existed, there have been at least a million fanfics exploring the exact same premise. Nothing personal, though, I know what you really meant. :)

In any case, I think most people just don't care to look as deeply as you are with Turtles Forever. I promise you, at no point from conception to development to completion were they looking to address plot holes, adhere to continuity, tie up loose ends or provide fair representation to other TMNT universes. It was, and is, simply a big ol' fanservice clusterf*ck, and I think that should be ok and people should just take it for what it is.

No, it's not perfect, it's just dumb fun and a novelty for people who never thought they'd see the OT Turtles and 2K3 Turtles onscreen at the same time. Judging it as anything else isn't entirely fair, as that would be judging it for not being something it was never intended to be in the first place. Your brain is supposed to stop thinking once it has processed "DOOD it's the Turtles and the OTHER Turtles OMG!!1!" Look any deeper than that and of course you're not going to be happy.

[Konchadunga]

I am as capable of enjoying dumb fun as much as the next guy, but I pose two questions: 1, why accept dumb fun when I know it's possible to do smarter stories that are no less fun? 2, if they only intended dumb fun, where do they get off skewering the Fred Wolf series for being just that?

To be honest, fanservice gets old. It gets old because it requires a series to be old; to have things that many fans latch onto and treasure, but that get buried in time for a while, championed only by aficionados while the rest of the world moves on. It thus is always fun for many people when an author pulls up old treasured memories, but because that in and of itself takes no effort, a work's purveyors can only ride the wave of nostalgia for so long before they actually have to do something good with it.

I was as psyched as anyone else when I heard of TF, and though I thought it was a disappointment the first time I watched it, I still enjoyed it more than enough for it to get me back into all things TMNT. This renewed obsession, however, inspired me to rewatch a whole bunch of episodes from both shows, as well as seek out many of the Mirage stories, and after all that, I rewatched the movie, and its flaws just got more and more offensive to me, because there's more to being a fan than nostalgia. There's also solid memories of actual well-written stories all across the incarnations, and I'd prefer those in a single incarnation to a deeply flawed mess crossing them over.

In fact, as I said in another thread tonight, I'm starting to feel the same way about IDW. Fanservice was awesome for a while, but at a certain point, actual creativity and writing needs to step in.

[Leo656]

I don't know. I can't entirely disagree with you, I just feel like with regards to TMNT in general, I sort of know what I'm getting into and just try to enjoy what I'm given rather than bemoan what I was not (MOST of the time). For the most part, I wish TMNT in general wasn't so linked to bad slapstick, dated humor and pizza jokes, and I do wish for it to be presented, generally, in a more sophisticated fashion than it's usually been, but at some point I think I just gave up on that and started taking it for what it is, or at least what the creative powers-that-be want it to be.

With TF, I got exactly what I expected to get and was fine with that. I hadn't seen most of the last 2 or 3 seasons of 2K3, so the stuff that didn't fit didn't bother me, and I was honestly expecting the FW versions to be played down even more than they were. Just because the potential is there to turn something into the equivalent of Shakespeare doesn't mean they have to.

Potentially, sure, we could have had a two-hour epic where all of it was played straight, the FW TMNT characters were seen just as they were in the first mini-series, the 2K3 versions weren't so condescending, and the Mirage ones had a bigger role. Would'a been nice. Sometimes, I just figure, "Eh, close enough." I knew from the start they weren't going to put THAT much work into it.

Again, can't disagree with you opinions. I guess I just settle for less, sometimes. I'm kinda old, it happens. :P As far as TMNT in general goes, let's be honest, its entire continued existence is nothing more than "fanservice"; it's not THAT popular and every version since the OT has leaned heavily on referencing/reimagining what came before to sell itself in hopes people who grew up liking it will approve. Isn't that kind of the very definition of "fanservice"?

[Avatar Yuffie]

I'm just waiting for a 2003 meets 2012 special.

2003: What the shell?
2012: :ohwell: *dumb sound*

2003: backflips everytime they use a toaster
2012: rolls their eyes *wah wah waaaah*

[Konchadunga]

I for one would be more interested in seeing 2012 Karai mock 2003 Karai, but I guess it depends on how 2012 Karai evolves.

Actually, new idea: How about a special where every major incarnation crosses over to stop a now-evil Venus from enslaving them all with her Mary Sue powers?

[Luckyday]

To restate a point in a recent thread, I think the so-called Fred Wolf turtles in Turtles Forever actually resemble the movie turtles a lot more. (Barring the fourth movie.) This is because the movie turtles truly were more incessantly giddy and prone to clowning around even in dire situations. So yeah; if it had actually been them in TF, I could see one or two jokes about them getting attacked while trying something silly, and wondering why their enemies don't just give them time to do it.

Yet that really isn't how the Fred Wolf turtles approached situations. Their problem was really the opposite; they acted serious when threatened, but they fought like clowns. It worked, and so whatever, but I still didn't like it. At least TF got that right, but their goofy attitude was wrong from the start, and worse each time it kept going.

I'm not entirely convinced 4Kids intentionally insulted the Fred Wolf series. Yes; there was a lot of fanservice, and they got some things right, like Fred Wolf Raph's Fourth Wall humor, and Fred Wolf Shredder and Krang's bickering. (Though I call bull**** on them losing to an utrom in hand-to-hand combat.) However, 4Kids has many deep flaws that infect the movie badly. Their TMNT show's humor always tended to be annoying sooner than funny, they're infamous for just not caring about what they adapt (including the Mirage series, based on Peter Laird's journals of his angry reprimands to their writers), and the whole series had taken a massive turn for the stupid for three seasons leading up. Considering they weren't even getting their own turtle show right by that point, it's not hard to see why they'd botch someone else's. Forgetting accuracy for a moment, TF is a let down simply for being an annoying movie full of stupid plotholes and deus ex machinas.

Now, back on topic: Will the 2012 show get them better? Well; if insults are a factor, I don't think this show is likely to do that, since it has a much more positive attitude toward (most of) the Fred Wolf era than Peter Laird did. I (and many others) also find this show's humor to be much better than 4Kids' show's (Also, much better than Nieli's prior work on Teen Titans), which is a plus for diverse character humor. (That's a good theory on why TF ended up making "five Mikeys;" because Mikey's man-child antics were close to the only type of humor they'd had any practice doing.) So I think they're in better hands. I have to wonder, though, if they'd end up having too few opportunities for jokes, since it seems like they might be sliding this series further and further into the mold of the Fred Wolf series anyway.

Oh god, I'm so relieved that I am not the only who felt this way, but those movie turtles were all clones of Mikey (save for raph) and OT turtles from Turtles Forever acted just like them.

[CyberCubed]

Turtles Forever was an excellent movie and anyone who thinks otherwise is being way too bitter about minuscule details.

[Leo656]

Or, y'now, it just wasn't their cup of tea. Whichever. :P

Edit: Nevermind. Upon reflection, tea itself is rather bitter. So I guess you're right. Damn it.

[Coola Yagami]

Or, y'now, it just wasn't their cup of tea. Whichever. :P

Edit: Nevermind. Upon reflection, tea itself is rather bitter. So I guess you're right. Damn it.

Yeah. Far be it for anyone to have a different opinion lol.

[Raphaeline]

The one who changed the most since the 87 series is Raph. We was never angry in the 87 series, and always joking around.

So I guess if the Nick Raph meets the old Raph, it would be a bit the same as when 2003 Raph met the old one. Something like "WTF? who is that goofball?"

[BubblyShell22]

Yeah, but 2K12 Raph definitely isn't as angry as 2K3 Raph was. I still can't wait for them to meet though. It'll be very interesting to see.

[Dragnskull]

Not even close Cybercubed.

Hopefully since Rob Paulsen himself is there(as well as the other 3), he can help keep things under control so the Turtles aren't portrayed as being TOO goofy.

For some reason, I have faith that they will be potrayed way better here.



His name was Robert Paulson.

[Raphaeline]

Yeah, but 2K12 Raph definitely isn't as angry as 2K3 Raph was. I still can't wait for them to meet though. It'll be very interesting to see.

They're different. Raph from 2003 seemed kinder. Angry, but always wanting to help/rescue people in need (children in the street, grandmas, etc). But the 2012 Raph seems more selfish, says harsh things to his brothers, and runs into the danger without thinking either. When Leo says to April that they will help her, Raph was the first to say he didn't really want to, but followed the decision of Leo after all.

Raph from 2003 seemed more sociable to me.

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4710/j5r.png
*cute*

[Powder]

Well, Nick Raph is younger, & the series is trying to stress their youthful faults so that we can see them grow over the seasons. & he definitely cares, he's defended and worried about his brothers, he tried to impress April by making up a story about Donny's heroics, etc.

[BubblyShell22]

I agree. Nick Raph isn't totally heartless. He realized he'd been harsh on Donnie at the beginning and knew he had to make up for it, so he did. And he even apologized to Leo at the end of "New Girl In Town" for criticizing his leadership skills and being a jerk.

[Xav]

Ironically, Nick has been better to Michelangelo than most of the other incarnations. He's still the goofy little brother, but they've made it a point that he's eccentric/nonsensical, NOT stupid, whereas the 2003 series had him acting like a retard, and the 2007 movie had him acting like a pothead.I don't know what you're talking about. 4Kids mike was goofy but not stupid. Nick Mike is the one who acts retarded.

2) How did Karai know that Ch'rel was back, underground, in a giant Christmas ornament?
3) For that matter, why was Karai still loyal to him? I thought that bit had been closed as of the end of the Teenage Mutant Naruto Turtles arc, and then proven to have stayed closed when she fought against the cyber Shredder; knowing he was Ch'rel's ordered successor.
4) Why was Ch'rel impressed by mutagen? Utroms knew about it, as well as how to make it, for a long time.
In the uncut version of the film Karai explains she has a tracking device on Ch'rell.
He was still her father, and the Cyber Shredder wasn't just a cyber clone.
I don't think Ch'rell knew about the mutagen, and I don't think the Utroms knew how to make it it was just toxic waste from their transmat.

[Raphaeline]

I don't say Raph fro Nick series is heartless, I love that character, I just say that he seems less "officially" caring than the 2K3 one.

Of course at the end of the épisodes, he tries to apology (in his own way), but Raph from 2k3 was showing that more clearly (takes Mikey in his arms when he thinks Leatherhead killed him, cries when he is in front of the almost-dying Leo, etc).

Let's say that while the 2k3 Raph helps a blind grandma, comes back to visit her, stuff like this, I see the Nick Raph just saying "it's not our problem".

Yes I hope they will all grow up and get more mature, but they are supposed to be 15 just like the 2k3 turtles.

I don't know what you're talking about. 4Kids mike was goofy but not stupid. Nick Mike is the one who acts retarded.

I totally agree on that.

[BubblyShell22]

I don't see Nick Raph refusing to help someone in need, especially an older person.

4Kids Mikey was worse because he acted like an arrogant jerk after the Battle Nexus story arc. Nick Mikey is not retarded. He has a short attention span, but I would have thought that Parasitica would have shown how he can be smart and do things right.

[Raphaeline]

All that Battle-Nexus stuff made me laugh; Mikey was so proud. But he is lazy so everytime someone asks him to train, he says he doesn't need to train because he is the champion. But I don't remember anyone in the 2k3 episode being rude with Donnie and Mikey and saying they were the "replacement team"!

That's also why Raph 2012 sounds more like a jerk I guess.

Maybe he won't refuse to help someone, but I remember when he didn't want to help April find her father at first, saying they have to think about it, etc... but the others said "of course we will help you!".

[BubblyShell22]

That's because Raph is distrustful of people, and I can understand why. She's the first real human they've met, and they really don't know anything about her or if she would reveal their secret, so I can see why he would act that way.

Mikey didn't make me laugh with the BN stuff. He just made me so mad, I wanted to punch him.

[Candy Kappa]

Also, plotholes; so many I'll count them:
1) How did the OT Turtles get out of the Technodrome when it warped to the 4Kids universe?
Through the exit of course, like they have done before :P

2) How did Karai know that Ch'rel was back, underground, in a giant Christmas ornament?
Karai explains that she had a tracker set on Ch'rell, this was cut out in the edited version.

3) For that matter, why was Karai still loyal to him? I thought that bit had been closed as of the end of the Teenage Mutant Naruto Turtles arc, and then proven to have stayed closed when she fought against the cyber Shredder; knowing he was Ch'rel's ordered successor.
This is all dependable on how canon things are, the OT turtles are a condensed version of 10 years of turtle-dom focusing on the goofy pizza lover side, which most likely most people would have remembered them as. and the 4kids turtles are very easily annoyed or flabbergasted by the antics of the OT guys.

And then theres comic book logic: Nothing really changes, and if they do it is not permanent. Karai might have given Ch'rell a seconf chance, since he is her father.

4) Why was Ch'rel impressed by mutagen? Utroms knew about it, as well as how to make it, for a long time.
The Utroms never made Mutagen. The ooze was a biproduct from their teleporter. Ch'rell did temper with making mutant slaves, but nothing as powerful and potent as Mutagen.

5) Where the shell is everyone in the Mirage universe?! I've been to New York, and nowhere were the streets just barren at night, but even if I could buy that in that one place, the people were just sleeping, the Technodrome rampaging would have woken them up. There wasn't even any evidence of the commotion caused by them fleeing it, and in New York, that many people could not have fled all at once without many of them being gridlocked.

animation limitation, do you think a animated movie have unlimited budget or finish schedule?

and within limitation we did have mass hysteria in the 4Kids world, seeing that again would be stretching the movie and more scenes being cut from the edited version. Mirage world was set up for the 8 turtles to duke it out without the military to help.

6) Finally, and I get that this is meta, but what was Ch'rel's plan supposed to be? Since the only way for him to understand that one universe inspires another is by knowing it's all fiction, and he hoped to erase it all by killing the Turtles, what was stopping Eastman and Laird from just stopping him from doing it? Was he aware of them? Could he come out and kill them? Were they aware that someone was alive in their graphic novel and it was trying to rewrite itself?

I don't remember any hint that Ch'rell knew that part, only that the multi-verse had a prime world, and if prime world was destroyed, the other worlds would collapse.

one could go deep in and theorize that since Ch'rell changed the events in prime, it got split into a new world. So in a way Ch'rell would never be able to truly destroy the multi-verse, almost in a way as the Deadpool title where he decides to kill the multi-verse. new stories will always appear never ending.