Does anybody else hate it when TMNT mention honor

[PApagreg]

I mean I understand the Shinobi code but they are NINJAS their very existence is to give a middle finger to honor
I also understand that most of the time ninjas can be for whatever medium or attended audience sort of abridge but it is sort of a pet peeve of mine when they start talking about honor

[Powder]

No, I love it. It's obvious they're not real ninjas by definition. They don't wear anything that links them to a clan, they're good guys, they don't kill for hire, blah blah blah. They're essentially samurais with the name of ninja. Their upbringing was an amalgamation of Japanese belief systems. Plus much of their martial artistry is Chinese (kung-fu). These inconsistencies define them, so I don't hold them to any standards of a traditional ninja when they're clearly anything but.

[snake]

The first few issues of Mirage practically give the middle finger to honor.
But, it's a cartoon, they can't show the turtles being actual 'Ninja' and keep the show Tv-Y7

[PApagreg]

The first few issues of Mirage practically give the middle finger to honor.
But, it's a cartoon, they can't show the turtles being actual 'Ninja' and keep the show Tv-Y7

I found that 2k12 is really good at giving the middle finger to honor

[snake]

I found that 2k12 is really good at giving the middle finger to honor

How so? The only example I could think of is the shredder fight or maybe splinter in the Season Finale trailer.

[Bossa Nova]

No, I love it. It's obvious they're not real ninjas by definition. They don't wear anything that links them to a clan, they're good guys, they don't kill for hire, blah blah blah. They're essentially samurais with the name of ninja. Their upbringing was an amalgamation of Japanese belief systems. Plus much of their martial artistry is Chinese (kung-fu). These inconsistencies define them, so I don't hold them to any standards of a traditional ninja when they're clearly anything but.

I was going to try to explain why no, it doesn't bother me, but it's just pretty much all of this.

Plus, I grew up not with the cartoons, but primarily the movies, and in the first film particularly the subject of honor was very prominent. To me, that was something that was extremely important to Splinter and why he made sure he instilled these values in his sons. The turtles have always been about honor in my mind.

[PApagreg]

How so? The only example I could think of is the shredder fight or maybe splinter in the Season Finale trailer.

Well Splinter's seek victory not fairness speech and when the ganged up on Bradford

[snake]

Well Splinter's seek victory not fairness speech and when the ganged up on Bradford

Ehh. Fair enough.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Shinobi were created by the medieval Japanese military for special operations, such as spying, infiltration, etc. They only became mercenaries when the regular warlord militaries no longer needed them full-time.

[Raphaeline]

I'm just annoyed when it's Karai from the 2003 series who always says "my Honor!" (it's her excuse for everything)

Like if following a mad leader like Shredder who wants to kill millions of people was honorable. Meh.

[BubblyShell22]

No, it doesn't bother me because it's the code they live by. They don't talk about it much in the Nick show, but Splinter is different there and has a different view on things than 2K3 Splinter.

[pingclang]

You know, I never really thought of it like that. I've always loved that the Turtles, when completely cornered, would flee or use trickery to get out of a situation, which could be considered dishonorable. Being ninja does sort of throw honor out the window. I don't really see them following a code so much as just being decent people...er characters. I guess honor is something the creators don't put too much focus on for a reason. It's a deep subject.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

As I've said before on these forums, (history major here) the TMNT have NEVER acted like historical shinobi in any sense of the word, even in Mirage. Ninja were trained mercennaries with comando level martial arts skills. Some were memebers of a clan, some were not. Some fought for heroic purposes, some did not. Some concentrated on the assasination aspect, some on what 90% of all ninja missions actually were- espionage or sabotage. They would fight for a noble cause if they were paid to do it.

And honor in Japan was a very absract concept. Every clan had a doffrent concept of honor, every class had a diffrent concept of honor- even subtle pieces of what constitutes honor varied from region to region, from daimyo to daimyo, village to villiage. Pinning one concept down as 'honor' or 'saving face' is a tricky cocept at best.

In truth, most things associated with the turtles- clan colors, the manner of the 'honor-killing' revenge of the shredder was carried out, the concept that all true ninja are these stoic, greay area in morality martial artists whose only loyalty is to clan above all else- is far more orientalist projection of what the west thinks ninjas are, rather than true shinobi.

[Lord Nightwalker]

I mean I understand the Shinobi code but they are NINJAS their very existence is to give a middle finger to honor
I also understand that most of the time ninjas can be for whatever medium or attended audience sort of abridge but it is sort of a pet peeve of mine when they start talking about honor

Not at all..And Ninja were not all about giving honor the middle finger. They just have their own interpretation of what "honor" is, where as samurai had a very specific way of going about things within a percieved "correctness" that often placed restrictions upon them which the ninja did not have.

[Irishmile]

No I think it is important, in my own life I try really hard to live up to a certain standard, I wouldn't go as far as I am trying to be "HONORABLE" at all times.. I just want to be someone my children can look up to and say "you know, my Dad has always been a decent man" I worry about these things because I want my kids to grow up to be kind and generous adults.

If you wield potentially deadly skills like the turtles do I think its responsible that their father (splinter) ALSO stressed the importance of honor while using what he taught them.

[DonatelloNinja82]

It doesn't bother me at all...it really fits 2k3 Leo's personality, too

[Trivia]

I'm just annoyed when it's Karai from the 2003 series who always says "my Honor!" (it's her excuse for everything)

Like if following a mad leader like Shredder who wants to kill millions of people was honorable. Meh.

It really depends on how you define honorable though.
Deceiving someone may seem more dishonorable than the fact that Shredder wants to kill people. I know it is extreme, but still, if you think about it...
Shredder is her ''father'' and she could at one point have swore to stay with him.

However, honor isn't always about doing the right thing.
I think it is more about being accepted in a certain culture - following their ways.

But anyway; Karai is still using it as an excuse, yes, but it isn't always completely wrong either.

As for the turtles, I believe their ''honor'' is a way of setting morals.
It seems Leo is the only one viewing it as it was honor, the others actually consider what they do more of morals. Or as ''right or wrong''.

[Hero]

I hate the frequent unnecessary use of the word 'hate' on here :).

I am down with the honor aspect too. Its all good.

[Luckyday]

It really depends on how you define honorable though.
Deceiving someone may seem more dishonorable than the fact that Shredder wants to kill people. I know it is extreme, but still, if you think about it...
Shredder is her ''father'' and she could at one point have swore to stay with him.

However, honor isn't always about doing the right thing.
I think it is more about being accepted in a certain culture - following their ways.

But anyway; Karai is still using it as an excuse, yes, but it isn't always completely wrong either.

As for the turtles, I believe their ''honor'' is a way of setting morals.
It seems Leo is the only one viewing it as it was honor, the others actually consider what they do more of morals. Or as ''right or wrong''.

Think this was more of a case of mistranslation. This was more of protecting the family. For a better reference, it how Tywin Lannister views honor as means to go out of his way to protect his family's honor, which is clearly not about doing honorable things, but is still more about protecting their rep.

[DaVinci]

Their honour is part of the Turtles' charm to me.

Though I do prefer that it be at least a little less clear-cut than it was in the Fred Wolf show.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Actually, I very much like that aspect- they are clearly (and I believe it's been stated in the various TMNT media itself) following the code of Bushido- the Warrior's Code of Honor- which is a VERY different concept of honor from our Western idea. It's more akin to chivalry and knightly honor in medieval period than the "right and wrong" aspect it has taken on in more recent centuries. Not a history major here, but I've studied a bit about the Samurai, Bushido, Shinobi, and Japanese culture in general (for research purposes) and I see them as following a code of honor in the sense of family and clan honor- doing what is in the best interests of the family, protecting it, and acting in a way that is culturally acceptable to their peers and those they interact with.

They seem to have a very strong moral compass, but only as far as it doesn't interfere with their own best interests. IE- they will steal or damage property if that is what is necessary to protect their "clan" but not out of ill-will or simple whim. They are not ninja in the assassin sense for the most part- more like spies or saboteurs, as others have mentioned. Honor in an Eastern context also means having personal standards of what is considered socially regarded as correct behavior- like bowing to a superior or removing shoes when entering a home. (To not do either would be considered rude and dishonorable, as honor includes being polite and respectful to others, regardless of station.) The turtles show this often- especially in their relationships with Splinter, Usagi, and some others. And AFAIK, there has never been any reason to believe ninja were ever "dishonorable"- they just adhere to a different view of it as opposed to most other members of their society- a warrior's code, but without so many of the strict rules that a noble or Samurai would be expected to adhere to. They have some leeway, almost by definition of the kind of work they do.

[ryukenden]

The word "honor" may have been used quite frequently in the 2K3 series but I didn't mind it as it would befit that incarnation.

[Captain PunchYouHard]

I initially had the same reaction. Then I realized that it's similar to religion - sometimes you have the luxury of changing individual tenets of a classical belief system to fit your circumstances. Perhaps Splinter never really liked the idea of "dishonorable" things and wanted to raise his sons to value honor and fight the more "honorable" way that he presumably wasn't able to.