Baxter in OT... the lesser of two evils?

[Andrew NDB]

I pose to you: what was the lesser of two evils in Fred Wolf's decision to make Baxter Stockman, a black man that's a villain, into a white man that's a villain? Meaning, was it a somewhat racist move to whitewash a black character (the only one in the source material for a long time, actually) -- even if it's a villain -- for the show, or did they dodge a bullet by showcasing a black villainous man in what was primarily a show with either Caucasians or mutants?

[CyberCubed]

Are we speaking now, or when it was originally airing? Back then most of us were introduced to Baxter as a white guy so I never thought of it. I was only 3 years old when the original toon started, I didn't even know comics existed outside of Archie till like...1994-1995.

However with the knowledge that I have now, I'm not so sure. They probably should have just kept him black, but I like how mutated Baxter has blonde hair, and if he was black it would have to be all dark...like how I assume Nick's Baxter will be colored after mutation.

I just think that since back then they had no idea if the show was going to be a success or not, they decided not to have a black wimpy scientist being bossed around by Shredder. Bebop was at least shown to be a tough street punk, so there it didn't matter as much.

Not to mention there's probably some thinking behind Rocksteady being white and Bebop black back then. Between them and Shredder being Asian, you had 3 races as the main villains, 4 if you count Krang as an alien. lol.

[Andrew NDB]

Are we speaking now

Yes. In retrospect.

[Jester]

I think the bigger issue was his subservient nature to Shredder. I mean could you see a black man saying, "Yes, Master Shredder." without some blow back?

[Powder]

I think the bigger issue was his subservient nature to Shredder. I mean could you see a black man saying, "Yes, Master Shredder." without some blow back?

Definitely this. If he were more independent as a character I don't think it would have been an issue.

[pannoni1]

Before Shredder, Baxter's ambition was to make money and nothing else. He was probably just a low self-esteem scientist who wasn't evil since he was still under the radar by the media. After being fired by his extermination company, he saw Shredder as a bigger opportunity to use his mousers in order to succeed. Baxter before his mutation took the "Master" as a courtesy that he'll trust Shredder in not just defeating the Turtles, but eventually ruling the world and earning all the many he could. This is just another "money is the root of all evil" lesson. But after Baxter's mutation, his mission was simply to be human again by seeking revenge and I started to feel sorry for him since he was once not a bad person, but siding with pure evil mutated him and never became human again. But racism was never an issue in cartoons by the late '80s; having a black Baxter would have been truer to Mirage and with Ghostbusters, Hulk Hogan's Rock n' Wrestling, and other cartoons having black characters by then, it was just another character in which MWS didn't do the research.

[Jester]

I know this seems to be the answer for everything, but has anyone asked Peter or Kevin?

[Pterobat]

Well, yeah, the lesser of two evils was making Baxter white, because keeping his Renfield-like characterization with a black character would have some serious Unfortunate Implications.

BUT here's the thing: Baxter didn't have to be a regular character in the OT. I know, I like him, but it would have been just so easy for it not to happen.

He disappears after "A Thing About Rats", and acts like a completely different person in the second season when we see him again: it'd be easy for that post-Mousers character not to be Baxter Stockman. Likewise, they could have just invented another mad scientist character to become a fly if they wanted to homage the old movie.

BTW, here's Peter Laird's early sketches for the Mirage version of the character: http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.ca/2008/09/blast-from-past-95-baxter-stockman-and.html , and in the comments, he says he doesn't know why Baxter was made white.

I mean, we all assume it was done so that Fred Wolf and co. didn't look like jackasses, but it could very well just be that the TMNT-cartoon-toy team wanted to homage the Fly, and also go with a name the comics were already using, and so we got Cracker Stockman.

[MikeandRaph87]

I remember reading the whole reason for Baxter Stockman being white was because it would be thought racist for a black man to be pushed around and somewhat abused. It was also inspired by Christopher Llyod's wild eyed crazy haired Doctor Emmett Brown design that Baxter was partially visually based on since Baxter being white was playing it safe with the tighter censors of the times. Even if brought up on the '87 cartoon his race is not important. In most cases I like seeing the characters as the race they start out as but some like Baxter Stockman or Nick Fury its not essential.

Thanks for the link,Petrobat. I did not know that the original design in #2 was drawn as either/or. In the comics he never got a second appearances as himself and was a cyborg so the race was thrown out the window. I wonder since Baxter was mutated in thr cartoon that it was inspired to change Baxter into something more than human and if they were not into mutants in the black and white comics then the only other route to go was...a cyborg.

[Pterobat]

Mm...like I said, we all assume Baxter was made white because it would be horrifying if his cartoon characterization *wasn't* white, but we don't know for sure if this was the reason it happened. It's hard to tell whether his being white or his cowardly, cringing personality came first in the production of the cartoon/toy world.

Either way, whitewashing makes me cringe a bit, and ditto at myself for liking a whitewashed character. Nobody *had* to write FW Baxter in a way that making him white was pretty much a PR necessity, and 4Kids and Nicktoons show ways that they can keep Baxter as a put-upon henchman and also keep his original race: make him a stronger person, tone down the slapstick, etc. It's being assumed that FW Baxter *had* to be written the way he was, and the whitewashing therefore justified, but he could have been any sort of character.

[CyberCubed]

Back then a villain having bumbling incompetent henchmen was the norm. I think Baxter's personality was based on Otis from the Christopher Reeve Superman films. In the first film Otis was basically a bumbling lackey to Lex Luthor in the same way.

There are also a few scenes where Shredder drags Baxter by the collar or carries him over his shoulder....I can't imagine how that would look with a small wimpy black scientist back in 1987/1988.

Overall I doubt the writers or whomever put too much thought into Baxter's race. They made so many changes from Mirage canon at the time that Baxter being white was probably just something they considered quickly and went with it.

[MikeandRaph87]

Petrobat,I watched Spider-Man:The Animated Series but never gotten into any other series. Anyway,in Spider-Man Roderick Kingsely,a wimpy older WHITE guy who is pulling Hob Goblin's strings.Yet in the cartoon he was a black guy. It did not get time to play out in Spectacular because Disney buying the company cancelled the cartoon. Still a white guy turned black who is supposed to be precieved as a wimp shows how far censors had gone in 20 years time.Baxter himself is a testament to that considering the punishments and being withered to a one eyed brain who gets shock therapy to be kept in line in the 2003 cartoon. I am glad the way it worked out.

[Leo656]

I'm generally against race-switching an established character in general. There's no "good" reason for it, no "right" way to do it, and at the end of the day, *some*one is getting accused of being a racist, for some reason.

I understand why white characters sometimes get turned black for cartoons or movies, and in this case why a black character was made white, but it always seems like some contrived idea. I generally feel that it's better to come up with a different character if you need more diversity, as long as it's not done in some lazy way, like in the old Super Friends cartoons. And in Baxter's case, they could easily have written the entire character differently if having a black Baxter be Shredder's subordinate was going to raise that many red flags.

Of course, one of the great, funny things about 1980s pop culture was how far out of their way everyone went for a while to establish that nobody, anywhere, had ever been or possibly could have been a racist. It came from a good place, but was done with such overkill that we get over-reactionary "solutions" like making Baxter white, for example. On the other hand, we did get shows like Webster out of it.

So I think they should have found another way out of it, probably making Baxter and The Fly two different characters would have worked. I'm generally in favor of "leave well enough alone". There's always exceptions, though; I did like Michael Clarke Duncan as Kingpin in "Daredevil", but I genuinely felt nobody else could have portrayed the character as well, so in that case getting the best person for the job trumped the fact that Kingpin's normally white. For the most part, though, I say let things be.

[Refractive Reflections]

I think the bigger issue was his subservient nature to Shredder. I mean could you see a black man saying, "Yes, Master Shredder." without some blow back?

I remember reading the whole reason for Baxter Stockman being white was because it would be thought racist for a black man to be pushed around and somewhat abused.


These points have to strongly be considered whenever this issue is brought up, in addition you have to remember the racial attitudes of the 1980s. Yes, racial tolerance was FAR better in the United States than compared to twenty years ago, but it still had some ways to go. This is a time when airing or even seeing interracial couples was considered "risk taking" and would cause some to give strange/disapproving looks, and when South Africa was under Apartheid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid).

Considering OT Baxter's subservient demeanor toward Shredder, it was safer to make Baxter Caucasian otherwise the OT would have been considered subtly racist and "regressive", especially when the United States just came out of civil rights movement of the 1960s and 1970s. Some with extreme racial sensitives could have easily accused either the production staff at the Fred Wolf team and/or, even so far, as saying Peter Laird and Kevin Eastman were racist (even though those two had nothing to do with Fred Wolf series). (Let's not forget that OT Baxter turns into a common, yet disgusting mutant housefly, which would have only inflamed racial sensitivities even further.) But nevertheless, the wild and unjust accusations would have been "out there" and knowing the tabloid society we live in, it would have permanently damaged the franchise and the TMNT momentum would have been dead on the spot because racial minorities would abhor it and Caucasians wouldn't want themselves, much less their kids, to be associated/enjoy a cartoon that could possibly have these "supposedly" racist undertones. The controversy could have possibly went so far as to damaging the underground Mirage comic book series itself. In a worst case and extreme scenario from that fallout, TMNT would have been nothing but a faint whisper in the cartoon/comic realm, and nothing like the cultural phenomenon we know of today.

Is this extreme possible fallout, farfetched? Maybe... but knowing the racial sensitivity of that time, and the overreactions of tabloid culture (for example, remember how big the whole Pee-Wee Herman scandal was even though it had nothing to do directly with the show, in terms of content?)... why risk it? The OT was already risky in itself in the violence aspect, due to vocally overprotective parents and let's not forget the UK's strict censorship with anything "ninja" or showing nunchucks.

The cartoon was designed for profitability (obviously) and the last thing the franchise needed (if it was ever going to make mainstream success) was controversy over race when this decade was finally calming down from the tumultuous 60s and 70s. Therefore, I can't really choose either "racist or misguided" or "they did the right thing by making him white", because for the first choice, I don't think it was a deliberate malicious or misguided attempt at whitewashing, nor with the second choice, because the race change deviated from the actual character.

Some of you might think, why not choose the second choice? "The right thing by making him white". Well using the word "right" is a bit too strong for me, almost as if this race change shouldn't be questioned, but in my vocabulary I would choose the word "appropriate" or "diplomatic" in regards toward the time period and the subservient/weakling characterization of OT Baxter.

[VaughnMichael]

Yet Bebop is a black man and gets mutated into a warthog man who's a bad guy and is a complete idiot and not to mention says master Shredder.
So I think the idea that it was because they didn't want to catch crap for Baxter being a black lacky is out the window.

[CyberCubed]

Difference is Bebop was a street punk, Baxter would have been a wimpy black scientist.

Bebop gets stupider after mutation, but at that point kids will have forgotten he was black and just seen him as a mutant.

[pingclang]

Difference is Bebop was a street punk, Baxter would have been a wimpy black scientist.

Bebop gets stupider after mutation, but at that point kids will have forgotten he was black and just seen him as a mutant.

Yeah, but after Baxter mutates into a fly, we forget he was white. I only remember OT Baxter as the fly since it was such a cool concept. I'm sure it was a bit of white washing, but I guess it was the times.

[ABrown]

This poll needs at LEAST one more option. Saying "Yes, it was either racist or misguided" is one extreme. And saying "No, they did the right thing by making him white" is another extreme. I think there's a middle ground.

[Krang100]

I wasn't necessary to make Baxter tells Shredder master very often in the 2nd Season.

In his first appereance he wasn't renfield-like guy, he even wasn't evil, in his 2nd apperance his personality is a far different, now a lot more evil minded, became Shredder's lackey. Why?, maybe laziness of the writers.

Is possible when they made the first 5 episode, they didn't suppose the show would turned to popular, and it would explain why Baxter personality is too differente in the 2nd Season.

Mentionated above, they may Baxter white regardless of his personality in the 2nd season to make him look like a mad scientist. But if they made Baxter a black man in the begining, is possible Baxter wouldn't turn into renfield like guy.

Although in 2k3 Baxter in some eposides tells Shredder master as well. To be fair, most of the characters tells Shredder master, beside, Baxter express his dislike to Shredder.

A least in this 2k12, only Dogpound tells Shredder master. Although Baxter was side with Shredder again, considering how violent and evil is Shredder in 2k12 and Baxter's clusmy personality, if Baxter is arrested by the police, he'll be better.

[Jester]

I wasn't necessary to make Baxter tells Shredder master very often in the 2nd Season.

In his first appereance he wasn't renfield-like guy, he even wasn't evil, in his 2nd apperance his personality is a far different, now a lot more evil minded, became Shredder's lackey. Why?, maybe laziness of the writers.
Yeah...that dawned on me as I was rewatching and after I posted my "theory." Season 1 Baxter never calls him "Master Shredder" that's season 2 Baxter. I chalk up his drastic change to prison. I mean when Shredder finds him he's locked up...be it in a asylum or a prison. I think he snapped there.

[Shark_Blade]

I don't care about his skin color. He was cool in OT.

[Pterobat]

Oddly, I think any TMNT world with henchmen involved shows that there's a good and a bad way to call someone "Master": respectfully addressing a sensei versus kowtowing to the villain that controls you.

But as I said above, when 4Kids tackled the Baxter-as-henchman deal, they manage to avoid the pitfalls by making Stockman a much stronger person than OT Baxter, one who successfully struck back at the Shredder, could function on his own, and eventually freed himself from the Shredder (though Bishop never did have his best interests at heart until the far future).

As for OT Baxter going crazy/evil, I still think it comes off as random and I wish it were explored a little more, but I can see the explanation.

(And retroactively, looking at his brother makes you think he was just a ticking time bomb. :P )

[CyberCubed]

Also when you stop to think about it, Baxter kind of started the whole "mad scientist" craze that would become more common during Seasons 4-6.

Its also quite possible Baxter was intended to be a one-shot character at first. At the end of episode 3 the Turtles leave him tied up for the police. They could have never brought him back after that, just like all those other characters in the OT who only appear in one episode and never again.

[oldmanwinters]

It's so nice to see Andrew thinking deeply about the Fred Wolf series and creating fun threads like this!

:twink:

[Leo656]

It's not the "real" Andrew, it's the bastardized, watered-down-for-kids Fred Wolf version. The REAL Andrew has an impeccably-groomed Snidely Whiplash mustache, which he often twirls in a sinister manner while making disparaging comments about non-Mirage versions of TMNT.

If you were a real fan who read the Mirage comics, you'd have known that.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

He didn't have so many Mirage appearances back then, so his character as we know of it today was still not as established. Changing a character with only a few apperances in the original work isn't a big deal.

Also, 1987 Baxter Stockman became much of the Evil scientist".

[MikeandRaph87]

He didn't have so many Mirage appearances back then, so his character as we know of it today was still not as established. Changing a character with only a few apperances in the original work isn't a big deal.

Also, 1987 Baxter Stockman became much of the Evil scientist".

He only appeared ONE time by late '87. His second appearance was that of a cyborg in the storyarc of volume two. Same with Rat King as he only had ONE himself before he played a bit part in City At War 6 years after his first appearance,4 after he was used in other media.Neutrual character Leatherhead is the same way. The fact the three characters were based on a single appearance in the comics gave them a lot of room to build along with aiming at what is appealing to kids. I wonder if it was the success of those character in the cartoon that made them have a second appearance not to mainstays in the franchise. Baxter may have never been a cyborg and Rat King may never have shown up in City At War (though why as a ghost?).

I agree it was this sudden itch of going renegade in Curse of The Evil Eye mainly because he went back to being the sniveling whiny coward under Shreder's employ in Attack of The Killer Pizzas before he is mutated starting his usual urge for revenge against Shredder that is usually redirected to the turtles alone. Its almost as if Attack of The Killer Pizzas does not fit unless it is placed between Return Of The Shredder and The Incredible Shrinking Turtles.

Good one,Leo, and that is putting it nicely.

[Pterobat]

Yeah, I figured Andrew was trolling (in the classic sense), but I can't resist discussion about my favourite characters. :P

I like the Mirage comics, and Mirage Stockman is fun, but Mirage purism always seems silly.

I pretty much take a "whatever" attitude towards Baxter being back as Shredder's henchman in "The Case of the Killer Pizzas". I'm sure Krang could tell you a few things about Shredder and commitment anyway.