Tokka & Rahzar as babies?

[VaughnMichael]

This popped into my head lastnight at work as we've seen other mutants as toddlers such as the turtles and they looked like little kids.
So in TMNT 2 Shredder calls Tokka & Rahzar babies right?
So do you think if they didn't get demutated that they would of kept growing larger?
Just something to think about as it seems odd for them to be babies at that size.

[Toby Barrett]

Perry mentioned he tainted the mutagen before giving it to Tokka and Rahzar, so maybe they weren't literally babies.
They may have just been mentally inferior and Shredder was overreacting

[Plasticplayhouse]

yeah, i think perry accelerated their physical growth, but their mental growth did not follow suit.

[VaughnMichael]

Ah ok, I had this image of hulking second stage mutation Tokka & Rahzar and was like :o
I think that would of been a lot cooler than Super Shredder but that's just me.

[discordiatookie]

yeah, i think perry accelerated their physical growth, but their mental growth did not follow suit.

That's how I always seen it too. But grown up Tokka and Rahzar would've been mayhem!

[CyberCubed]

Perry said in the film he negated their intellect during mutation.

[Coola Yagami]

It makes sense even without Perry messing with the Mutagen. Shredder didn't have 15 years to wait around until the mutants reach the same maturity that the Turtles have. Considering the Turtles had a childhood in the first movie, they must have overdosed the ooze to make them reach full growth so quickly.

[Nameless]

It makes sense even without Perry messing with the Mutagen. Shredder didn't have 15 years to wait around until the mutants reach the same maturity that the Turtles have. Considering the Turtles had a childhood in the first movie, they must have overdosed the ooze to make them reach full growth so quickly.

exactly what i was thinking. The Turtles grew up and Tokka and Rahzar just got big and strong

[jestermon]

He says he messed with the mutagen to make them dumb, but the idea was the fact that the foot ninjas didn't know the ages and relative intelligence that a turtle and wolf would have.

Can you tell how old a dog is by looking at it, some dogs grow faster and even though they are large aren't adults.

Just because they are large doesn't necessarily mean they would keep growing, they could have been mutated to full size and just not have had developed brains, aside from that they would have to have learned English anyways.

Also, it's sad that those were the 2 most dangerous animals they could find (I know it's becasue that's what they designed)there is a Zoo in New York right?

I'm saying in real life if they couldn't break into a Zoo what kind of ninjas are they?

[Welmanshire]

Wasn't the tainting of the ooze to do with them reversing the mutations using the fire extinguishers, rather than altering their intellect? I always thought they only had the mental age of 2/3 year olds.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

Wasn't the tainting of the ooze to do with them reversing the mutations using the fire extinguishers, rather than altering their intellect? I always thought they only had the mental age of 2/3 year olds.

Perry mentions it before that he tainted it at some point i just cant remember the exact moment

[bridgegrn]

Perry mentions it before that he tainted it at some point i just cant remember the exact moment

Yeah, I actually always thought that moment was when you saw him reach and turn a valve and then looking around before sticking the tubes in to cover them with ooze

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

Yeah, I actually always thought that moment was when you saw him reach and turn a valve and then looking around before sticking the tubes in to cover them with ooze

see as a kid i always noticed the ooze he pours on Tokka and Rahzar was pink ish and not green so i figured something was off

[Welmanshire]

Perry mentions it before that he tainted it at some point i just cant remember the exact moment

I will have a re watch over the next few days and take particular note. I swear Perry and Donnie have a short conversation in the club about how when he tainted the ooze it allowed for co2 to retard the mutation. Hmmmm

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

I will have a re watch over the next few days and take particular note. I swear Perry and Donnie have a short conversation in the club about how when he tainted the ooze it allowed for co2 to retard the mutation. Hmmmm

he mentions it before though....when he is making the anti mutagen in the sewer prior to pepperoni heaven talking to Leo and Mikey.

http://youtu.be/fht9WHU8mKs?t=1h3m47s

with Donnie he is talking about needing co2 to give the anti mutagen a jump start because their burping is counter attacking the affects

http://youtu.be/fht9WHU8mKs?t=1h10m58s

[sgtfbomb]

yeah, i think perry accelerated their physical growth, but their mental growth did not follow suit.

Even if their mental growth did accelerate with the mutagen, it doesn't mean they would instantly be able to solve complex mathematical problems or even speak full sentences right away. They'd still have to learn these things, like anyone else. It would almost be more challenging for the Turtles if Tokka and Rahzar gradually got smarter and smarter throughout the film.

[BigMike322]

I think they would've grown to be bigger. Too bad they didn't visit that idea in the OT.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

All I ever noticed was that whomever wrote the script did NOT know much about wolves OR snapping turtles. When they are de-mutated, they revert back to their original forms- which most definitely are NOT babies. The wolf "pup" was nearly half-grown (at least six months at that size) and the snapper would have been a FULLY MATURE ADULT! (I say this after having been less than a foot from one once in my grandmother's yard- it was the same size- and that was an adult. I also believe the one in her yard was a female getting ready to dig a nest an lay her eggs.)

Also, I'd agree that whatever Professor Perry did to the mutagen during that moment when he's pouring it on them, must have "retarded" their mental growth in some way. So they may have been "babies" intellectually, but they were certainly full-size physically!

[jestermon]

It doesn't matter how big something is it doesn't make it older, size can be determined by genetics, diet and enviroment.

Just because an animal looks bigger doesn't make it older.

[darthwahl56]

Perry gave steroids to babies. Shame on him. Also animal testing.:lol:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

It doesn't matter how big something is it doesn't make it older, size can be determined by genetics, diet and enviroment.

Just because an animal looks bigger doesn't make it older.

Do you even know anything about animal growth? A wolf pup ages exactly like a dog- and the one in that scene was AT LEAST three-four months old. Hardly a "baby", but more like a 7-8 yr old kid, in animal equivalence. And that snapping turtle was about 1&1/2 feet long! That's most CERTAINLY a fully adult animal. (For the record, snappers reach between 1to 1&1/2 ft max. By the time they are about six or seven yrs old- around 1 ft- they are sexually mature. They do not grow much larger once they reach maturity.) So, no, NEITHER of those was actually a "baby" animal by ANY estimation. Wolves being about the size of a Husky or German Shepard would be about the same growth rate- further proof that that "baby" wolf was much older than Shredder thought.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

Do you even know anything about animal growth? A wolf pup ages exactly like a dog- and the one in that scene was AT LEAST three-four months old. Hardly a "baby", but more like a 7-8 yr old kid, in animal equivalence. And that snapping turtle was about 1&1/2 feet long! That's most CERTAINLY a fully adult animal. (For the record, snappers reach between 1to 1&1/2 ft max. By the time they are about six or seven yrs old- around 1 ft- they are sexually mature. They do not grow much larger once they reach maturity.) So, no, NEITHER of those was actually a "baby" animal by ANY estimation. Wolves being about the size of a Husky or German Shepard would be about the same growth rate- further proof that that "baby" wolf was much older than Shredder thought.

COUGH COUGH....its a movie, about walking talking karate turtles...COUGH COUGH

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yes, but there IS something called suspension of disbelief- or believability, if you prefer. The moment they were revealed in their "true" forms after being de-mutated, I had "WTF?!"/face-palm moment of realizing that Shredder was an idiot for not figuring out that Perry had done a snow-job on him with the mutants by making them stupid. After that, all believability was lost for me.

He SHOULD have known right from the beginning that they were not "baby" animals. (And their mutant forms were certainly full-grown, from the fact that they were so big.) For one thing- where does one even FIND a wolf or snapping turtle in New York? In the Zoo, of course- which normally exhibits only ADULT animals to the public. Animal infants are normally kept sequestered until they are old enough to introduce into the habitats with others of their kind. So Shredder stealing "babies" is hardly likely in the first place!

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I didn't tamper with the mutagen so that it would "bulk them up." It was designed to do that. He tampered with it so that they'd be retaaded. Look what happened to Super Shredder. They ignored the way it worked in the first movie and every other TMNT universe with the exception of the Fred Wolf show. You mutate into humanoid babies when exposed to it in every other universe and then grow up. Even Archie acknowledged this. We don't really have any stories about them as children in Mirage, but they start out as children in every other universe based in Mirage except for the Fred Wolf one.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

He didn't tamper with the mutagen so that it would "bulk them up." It was designed to do that. He tampered with it so that they'd be retaaded. Look what happened to Super Shredder. They ignored the way it worked in the first movie and every other TMNT universe with the exception of the Fred Wolf show. You mutate into humanoid babies when exposed to it in every other universe and then grow up. Even Archie acknowledged this. We don't really have any stories about them as children in Mirage, but they start out as children in every other universe based in Mirage except for the Fred Wolf one.


Agreed on the tampering- that was exactly my point. Perry didn't need to make them "big", they already WERE by the very nature of the mutagen. He did something to it to make them "intellectually inferior" (his own words) so they'd be less dangerous. Not that they weren't dangerous enough already....

The part that lost it for me was that Shredder didn't figure this out. Even in the movie, it took fifteen years for the turtles to reach full growth (if they even WERE "full-grown"- they're still teens) and he no doubt would have wanted something that would be big enough, intelligent enough, and strong enough immediately to be a threat, instead of having to wait for them to "grow up". Another reason they were likely adult animals. And then he gets- "BABIES!!"?? No, Chrome-dome, you didn't get babies, you got screwed.... This is why abducting scientists (who are probably smarter than you) and forcing them to create something to use as a weapon is NOT a good idea. Chances are, they will find a way to turn it against you. IIRC, Hitler had the same problem. Many of his scientists ended up defecting....

[Garfield]

I need to watch the film again. When Tokka and Rahzar's mutation was reverted, The Turtle that represented Tokka looked pretty big, he looked as if he were a full grown turtle. if I recall Rahzar, not so much. I could be wrong though.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

Yes, but there IS something called suspension of disbelief- or believability, if you prefer.

understandable...but i ask you this...if they had used a real baby snapper...who would see it...the idea was to show them "as babies" or de mutated

out side or shredders rant we have no idea if they really are infants

all we know is perry tampered the ooze so that their minds wouldnt mutant along with their bodies, when he altered it to make them grow faster

think of it like the OT...it the OT they just grow up as opposed to the movie and other versions where they have childhoods

[MsMarvelDuckie]

understandable...but i ask you this...if they had used a real baby snapper...who would see it...the idea was to show them "as babies" or de mutated

out side or shredders rant we have no idea if they really are infants

all we know is perry tampered the ooze so that their minds wouldnt mutant along with their bodies, when he altered it to make them grow faster

think of it like the OT...it the OT they just grow up as opposed to the movie and other versions where they have childhoods

Actually, we don't even know that they DIDN'T have a childhood in the OT. We're "shown" them mutating into "teens" (in flashbacks), but from various episodes, it appears they DID grow up with Splinter "raising" them. Splinter himself even calls them babies in their origin tale. (Also, in Adventures in Turtle-Sitting, Mikey mentions the others being little kids again- so it would seem they were kids once BEFORE the accident with the revivifier. And Don and Raph say something along the same lines in Back to the Shell.) We also don't have any indication of what happens to very young people/animals being mutated in the OT, as we never directly see anything but adults get mutated. Even Slash wasn't immune to this, as he was implied to be an adult, and fully able to talk (sort of) after being mutated- which says he already was mostly grown. Mondo Gecko's episode goes even further, with Mikey's dream/memory of them years earlier as "babies" being mutated, along with the gecko. Gecko was clearly raised over a number of years, which means by extension that they were, too!

About the baby snapper: Ever seen a snapping turtle? I've seen quite a few, due to living in a rural area where they are common. Even the young ones are nearly as big as some turtle species are after several years. Keep in mind this is the LARGEST genus of freshwater turtles still living. (Only the Alligator Snapper is bigger, and it's closely related.) Snappers are even known to EAT other turtles. It would not have been hard to spot a rather large (by the standard of most turtle species- most North American freshwater turtles get no bigger than 8-10 inches.) hatchling in that scene- the floor was clear, and he was sitting next to the wolf, so it's not like it wasn't in plain view.

Further, we don't even know that Perry did ANYTHING to make them grow faster- Shredder even ranted that it was taking too long, and Perry replies that "it takes time- DAYS." His own words again. So apparently, all he did was make them dumber.

Although that scene was intended to simply show them de-mutated, it also made the error of actual age of the animals glaringly obvious to anyone paying attention, and who knows even a little bit about animals or nature in general. (I'm something of an amateur naturalist/biologist, and having spent much of my childhood in the outdoors observing nature and reading/watching books and programs on wildlife made the error extremely jarring to me.)

[jestermon]

Do you even know anything about animal growth? A wolf pup ages exactly like a dog- and the one in that scene was AT LEAST three-four months old. Hardly a "baby", but more like a 7-8 yr old kid, in animal equivalence. And that snapping turtle was about 1&1/2 feet long! That's most CERTAINLY a fully adult animal. (For the record, snappers reach between 1to 1&1/2 ft max. By the time they are about six or seven yrs old- around 1 ft- they are sexually mature. They do not grow much larger once they reach maturity.) So, no, NEITHER of those was actually a "baby" animal by ANY estimation. Wolves being about the size of a Husky or German Shepard would be about the same growth rate- further proof that that "baby" wolf was much older than Shredder thought.

You obviously don't know anything about animal growth, people are different sizes and weights, animals aren't all the same size jsut because they are a certain age.

You need to read up on reality malnutrition at an early age can cause stunted growth in any living thing. Enviroment can produce pygmy animals or larger animals if they are fed well or conditions are more favorable. Do you even know anything about animal growth?