Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel [Archive]

CyberCubed

10-09-2013, 01:40 PM

Buffy was only good for the first 5 seasons. The last two seasons ranged from average to terrible, with the only redeeming episodes being the musical and the Dark Willow stuff.

Season 6 was pretty awful for the most part, and by Season 7 it felt the show had run its course.

Looking back at it now though I hate what they did to the majority of the characters. Xander became a loser, Willow turned lesbian, Giles became useless, Cordelia became some sort of god and then died (wtf?) during Angel, and the side characters like Oz, Riley, Anya, Tara, etc. were all either killed off and became throwaway.

Blossombrooks

10-09-2013, 02:04 PM

Man, I love Buffy and Angel! I was nothing short of obsessed back in the day. I have almost as much Buffy stuff as I do tmnt.

Cubed, Xander did not become a loser, he was a hero! Giles lost the will, and who wouldn't surrounded by that much death? So what if Willow was gay, I really liked how her relationship with Tara developed. I was really upset when Anya died, I'd really gotten to like her and her strange/blunt/hilarious ways. I'll grant you the Cordelia becoming a god etc was a bit odd and her being written out could have happened better.

I'll spoiler this bit so I don't ruin it for Turtle Titan, but TT Angel is well worth a watch.

Fred's death and subsequent possession by Illyria was heartbreaking!!

In fact I guess it's partly the balance of heartbreak and bittersweet triumph which kept me so addicted to the shows.

CyberCubed

10-09-2013, 02:09 PM

M
Cubed, Xander did not become a loser, he was a hero!

Xander abandons Anya on the wedding day, and spends most of Season 7 not really doing much of anything. Xander was my favorite character at the beginning of the series, I couldn't stand how they handled him.

So what if Willow was gay, I really liked how her relationship with Tara developed.

Willow being lesbian wasn't the problem, its that both Tara and Kennedy were boring characters. Willow getting over Tara's death so fast was disgusting.

I was really upset when Anya died, I'd really gotten to like her and her strange/blunt/hilarious ways. I'll grant you the Cordelia becoming a god etc was a bit odd and her being written out could have happened better.

I hated what happened to Cordelia. Once we hit Season 3 of Angel the writers had no clue what to do with her anymore.

Krutch

10-09-2013, 02:16 PM

I love Season 6. Maybe because when I watched it I was going through alot of sh*t, but it hit all the right notes for me. But I can see why its so divided. Alot of the fun was sucked out of the show since each character's arc were going to darker and darker places. Which I have to assume is why they had The Trio be the season long threat, to balance out the seriousness the Scoobies were all going through. And it ended with such a sweet note, having mere words bring down the ultimate force of evil. Loved it.

Season 7 is pretty much universally known as the weakest one. The ending was good, but getting there was a pretty stale journey.

There's alot to love in both shows.

Season 1 of Angel had a hard time finding its footing in my opinion. I rarely rewatch it. So sad it was cancelled right when it felt the show was getting into setting up a fresh start with things. And the possibilities of the Spike/Angel rivalry could have been amazing. But ah well.

Also, Lorne is pretty much the greatest character ever to grace television :D

Blossombrooks

10-09-2013, 02:34 PM

Willow being lesbian wasn't the problem, its that both Tara and Kennedy were boring characters. Willow getting over Tara's death so fast was disgusting.

Tara was sweet and naive, she was very much a reflection of Willow in season 1 but I agree with you about Kennedy.

Willow didn't get over Tara quickly, she went on the magic bender to end all magic benders and almost destroyed the world with her pain. She was sent away for a while and even when she returned she still loved Tara. When the first spoke through Cassie as 'Tara' to Willow that was obvious.

Oh my gosh, I love Lorne! Now he was great, added some often needed light to a dark show. Ha, those fabulous suits.

Candy Kappa

10-09-2013, 03:29 PM

I love all things Buffy, even the horribly butchered original movie.

CyberCubed

10-09-2013, 05:55 PM

They continued Buffy in comic form with Seasons 8 and 9.

Everything I've heard about the Buffy comics makes me want to stay away though. Sounds like a bunch of terrible storylines with the worst being Xander and Dawn becoming a couple. Good god.

Krutch

10-09-2013, 08:13 PM

Yeah, i started reading it but bailed. It just didn't feel like Buffy in the least bit. Dawn even became a Centaur for a bit.

Let that sink in.

CyberCubed

10-09-2013, 08:37 PM

Yeah, i started reading it but bailed. It just didn't feel like Buffy in the least bit. Dawn even became a Centaur for a bit.

Let that sink in.

LOL. Didn't Giles also die in the comics? I think I remember reading that somewhere.

What also bothers me is it takes place after the Angel series ended too, so it basically says Angel, Spike and Fred survive the end of Season 5 of that show.

TheBlueTurtle1

10-10-2013, 01:24 AM

I love these shows, just finished angel season 1, such a shame about Doyle:cry:

TheCanadiandrome

10-10-2013, 02:05 AM

Great shows, love em both! Glad I can relive all my fave eps on Netflix whenever I want

TheAnvil

10-10-2013, 06:13 AM

I'm currently watching through Buffy and Angel for the first time ever. I've finished the first 4 Seasons of Buffy and Season 1 of Angel (I found a really nifty guide online that tells you which order to watch the episodes in).

They're both such good shows, it's ridiculously hard to pick favorite characters. Faith, Buffy, Angel, Xander, Doyle and Spike are all such amazing characters (I too am so bummed about them killing off Doyle, he had so much potential).

After reading that they nearly did a Faith spin off and that it never materialized I'm really disappointed as she could have definitely carried a show. A lot of the episodes that have her in have been some of the best that I've seen. Generally speaking the best run of episodes has been Season 3 of Buffy, and I think a lot of that is in part thanks to Faith. The overall story with the mayor, having the Scooby's consisting of Buffy, Xander, Giles, Angel, Cordy, Oz and for a while Faith was really cool (but man is Willow annoying). Though it's quite hard to top the first 9 episodes of Angel.

So far, my favorite episodes have been "The Zeppo" from Buffy and "I Will Remember You" from Angel (that ending).

I wish they'd been able to follow through with Doyle and bring him back as a big bad in a later season (which they had planned to do until Glenn Quinn died :( ).

Krutch

10-10-2013, 09:32 AM

CyberCubed

10-10-2013, 12:03 PM

Wesley was one of the best characters of the show. Amazing how they changed his character so much.

In real life Alysson Hannigan and Wesley got married and had two kids together.

TheCanadiandrome

10-10-2013, 12:08 PM

Wesley annoyed me allot on that show

TheAnvil

10-10-2013, 04:20 PM

Yeah, I was bummed out about Doyle leaving too, as he was the best part of season 1 in my opinion. And being replaced by Wesley was a bit "ugh, really?". But give it time. Wesley slowly became the best part of the show. His transition from goofy comedic relief to broken down badass was a joy to see. Fred's also a big plus; just don't judge her on her first(rather annoying) few appearances.

I didn't like Wes when he was on Buffy, but he's really grown on me so far. I think the team would have been awesome with Angel, Cordy, Wes and Doyle. I'm not that keen on Gunn so far though. I don't hate him but he seems like a weird addition to the group.

I don't know who Fred is (yet). I've already taking a distinct dislike towards Lorne though.

It would have been a good idea to have revived Doyle at the end of Season 1 as an evil guy instead of Darla.

CyberCubed

10-10-2013, 04:29 PM

It would have been a good idea to have revived Doyle at the end of Season 1 as an evil guy instead of Darla.

You do realize the actor who played Doyle died while the show was till airing, right? I can't remember the exact year it was, but he died only a year or two after he left the show.

TheAnvil

10-10-2013, 04:31 PM

You do realize the actor who played Doyle died while the show was till airing, right? I can't remember the exact year it was, but he died only a year or two after he left the show.

Yes I'm aware that he died. But it was during Season 4.

Krutch

10-11-2013, 11:36 AM

I've already taking a distinct dislike towards Lorne though.

Whaaaaaat?! How can you dislike Lorne? I think his addition alone was responsible for fixing the tone of the series to where it needed to be to really shine.

TheCanadiandrome

10-11-2013, 11:41 AM

You do realize the actor who played Doyle died while the show was till airing, right? I can't remember the exact year it was, but he died only a year or two after he left the show.

Very sad, didn't even know that. According to Wikipedia he died of an "accidental" heroin overdose

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Quinn

Blossombrooks

10-11-2013, 12:21 PM

Also very sad was that Andy Hallett who played Lorne passed away a few years ago, poor guy.

CyberCubed

10-11-2013, 06:26 PM

Who are your least favorite characters?

I always thought Riley sucked, and Tara was a bit boring at the start until Season 5. Kennedy was an absolutely terrible replacement.

I also never saw Gun as anything more than the token black guy on the show. It's like they felt they suddenly needed to introduce a black character and it stuck.

Blossombrooks

10-11-2013, 06:45 PM

That's a tough question, I guess Riley was always one of my least favourite characters and I'm sure that had nothing to do with him replacing Angel as Buffy's love interest... ;)

Eve got on my nerves quite a bit but I ended up feeling sorry for her, oh and Connor, never really thought much to him even though the idea of his character was good.

TheCanadiandrome

10-11-2013, 11:21 PM

I liked Lorne on Angel, and of course when Spike came onto both of the shows, that made things interesting. Allot of the minor characters I remember hating, like Gun, couldn't get behind him. Loved Oz and Xander allot. Anya was cool. Near the end of Buffy's run, I kinda hated the whole "Scoobies" thing

TheBlueTurtle1

10-13-2013, 02:45 AM

I think Gunn was my least fav, he seemed to be a little pointless, would rather they worked Doyle back in some how, even if they had made him a evil to start with and turned him good again.

Such a shame the actor died, because it sounds like they were gonna do that around season 4.

I thought Gunn and Angel didn't gel, where as Angel and Doyle felt like Batman and Robin:lol:

zodiac brave

10-13-2013, 03:36 AM

my buffyverse fandom rivals that of my tmnt fandom. (and honestly, i like angel in that regard more than buffy, but they're still both great shows!) in fact, the first internet forum i ever joined was the wb angel forum waaay back in the day.

say what you will about character arcs and storylines...its true that a few plots seemed to get outta control throughout the show, but you can't deny that the way tv shows are now written, paced and executed is a result of what joss whedon and co did with these two shows.

spuffy 4 life!

CyberCubed

10-13-2013, 04:06 PM

I just hate it that every relationship on the show was broken up at some point. It got so predictable where you couldn't care for a couple because you knew they would break up a season later.

TheBlueTurtle1

10-13-2013, 05:04 PM

I think that killing doyle off was just such a big mistake. he brought out this great feeling within the group, he made cordelia relevant and he was Angel's sidekick. He was almost like a glue, and the group just doensn't feel the same without him there. Like said above, Gunn just feels like he's been brought in so they had a black guy there. There was enough room for Wesley, Cordy, Angel and Doyle (and whoever they introduce in the future).

Episodes like the one where cordelia got pregnant would have been so interesting to have seen what doyle would have brought to the episode. Like if he never really got with her, but stayed on the brink of it to keep the audience thinking whether or not it would happen. From what I read, the actress who plays cordelia's mother was really annoyed when they killed him off lol.

CyberCubed

10-13-2013, 05:09 PM

Cordelia's mother appeared in the show? I don't remember that happening.

Blossombrooks

10-13-2013, 05:31 PM

I don't recall that either, do you mean Cordelia's daughter Jasmine, Blue Turtle? She was an interesting character, those were some creepy episodes!

Speaking of creepy episodes, the Angel one 'Hell Bound' freaked me out! It was that guy in the basement *shudders*.

CyberCubed

10-13-2013, 05:57 PM

Some of the writing in the later episodes of Buffy and Angel were terrible to be honest. It felt at one point they finally ran out of ideas so they looked for as many ways to screw up the main characters as possible.

I really don't like what happened to the majority of the main cast as the show progressed. It ruins their characters for me even when I rewatch the beginning seasons because I know what they become.

TheBlueTurtle1

10-14-2013, 01:22 AM

CyberCubed

10-14-2013, 09:06 AM

Cordelia, or Charisma Carpenter, was extremely hot back in the 90's. Hard to believe she was like 30 years old while playing a High School student in the first 3 seasons.

Blossombrooks

10-14-2013, 01:22 PM

No, I mean the real life mother of the actress of Cordelia, said the show was stupid for killing Doyle off.

Ahh, my bad :D apologies.

Krutch

10-16-2013, 11:26 PM

I just hate it that every relationship on the show was broken up at some point. It got so predictable where you couldn't care for a couple because you knew they would break up a season later.

I kinda agree with you, but I also feel like each relationship felt justified in how it ended. I never went "Ugh, this is just for dramas sake."
I never cared for Angel, but I can see his reasoning for leaving her.
Spike and Buffy should never be a full-time thing anyways.
Willow and Oz was handled as well as it could have when an actor decides to leave the show. And I loved the episode when he comes back.
Tara and Willow never really broke up at the end.
Willow and Xander were never official to begin with.
Giles and Ms. Calendar never broke up.
Buffy + Riley... I just feel so indifferent towards that I cant form an opinion.

Okay, maaaaybe Anya+Xander, but still, can be argued that Xander was just too immature to get married yet(something that was more or less proven the episode of the wedding itself).

CyberCubed

10-16-2013, 11:36 PM

You forgot Xander/Cordelia...but it was bound to happen since she was leaving the show at the end of that season anyway.

I was only in middle school when Season 2 was airing, back then Xander/Cordelia was like my fantasy for myself in 8th grade...lol.

Krutch

03-25-2018, 04:12 AM

So, now that Disney acquired Buffy in the Fox deal, I'm willing to bet that we're going to hear about a new Buffy series to go on their streaming service sooner than later (once the deal finalizes.)

I'm going to bet it's an animated series, kind of a reboot of sorts. It'll feature all the main characters and will be set in highschool again, but the creatures and such would be a little more "out there" than the TV series.

Basically, it'll be like that animated pilot that didn't get picked up years ago, only with crappier animation.
mnUvZP7-5LM

But yeah, they'll definitely do something with the franchise. It's had surprisingly strong staying power, no doubt in part of it being on Netflix for a younger audience to find.

What do you think they'll end up doing? Animation? Reboot? Spin-off? SUBVERT EXPECTATIONS and launch a MALE reboot, Buddy the Vampire Slayer!? :o

newfan

03-25-2018, 04:26 AM

I loved Buffy back when it was on but as for whether they will do anything more. I'd imagine they would likely do something more live action, like a movie (but new cast/re-boot)

Just a comment going back to the series, It's a shame Buffy and Angel were eventually under different networks as they never got to cross again.
I first really picked it up I think in early 3rd season...maybe end of season 2 so I enjoyed marathoning the first 2 seasons on DVD.

Krutch

03-25-2018, 04:44 AM

I'd imagine they would likely do something more live action, like a movie (but new cast/re-boot)

It's a shame Buffy and Angel were eventually under different networks as they never got to cross again.
I first really picked it up I think in early 3rd season...maybe end of season 2 so I enjoyed marathoning the first 2 seasons on DVD.
That's the logical, popular choice - a movie reboot of a nostalgic tv show. But years ago when Fox announced their plans for a Buffy movie reboot, the reception was so overwhelmingly negative they immediately stopped development. I couldn't tell if it was more the mere thought of rebooting it that outraged the fandom or that Fox had no intention of bring Joss aboard for it, but either way, I have to assume Disney doesn't want to light that match again.

Last Jedi aside, Disney's a pretty play-it-safe company when it comes to making movies, so I figure the animated route is their safest bet. If you like it, bonus - more fun with the characters you love. If you don't like it, it's harmless since it's animated and kind of it's own thing that doesn't effect the original series.

As far as the Buffy/Angel crossovers go... ehhhh. I mean, I'll be honest: I never really liked Angel on Buffy. He was pretty flat and when he left, Buffy was able to grow without being so hung up on him.

But there were a few crossover episodes (less than five, if memory serves.) Buffy comes to Angel for a really strong episode. And I appreciate Angel showing up for the Buffy finale. But I preferred they kept their journeys seperate from each other once he left.

newfan

03-25-2018, 04:53 AM

I remember talk of a movie, SMG had commented years back that she feels like they make a mini movie in every ep, so no need for a movie... or something like that (this was a while back and not sure if this was before the actual intention to do it) I didn't realise they wouldn't use Whedon.

I liked Angel in Buffy but the show didn't need him after he left...at the same time he was a strong enough character to carry his own show.

Edit: So far as the animated idea, I see your point, they could do it, but would they try to make it more kid-like? I know it wasn't like cert R/18 but still it was PG13 there? Rated our 'in between' cert 15 here.

NinjaPug

03-25-2018, 07:59 AM

There was an article about a week ago where someone at Fox TV said they talk about bringing Buffy back all the time but won't do it until Whedon is ready.

I bet that happens sooner rather than later. Whedon's name is pretty much garbage these days and probably doesn't have a lot of job opportunities.

newfan

03-25-2018, 08:16 AM

Krutch

03-25-2018, 09:04 AM

Whedon's name is pretty much garbage these days and probably doesn't have a lot of job opportunities.Dude still has a long career ahead of him. He'll make movies or television or books for the rest of his life. He's established with a built in fanbase. He was asked the impossible to "fix" Justice League and everyone knows that. And the news of his affair, while I'm sure damages his image to some, isn't exactly #metoo level kind of stuff.

I do think you're right about him returning to Buffy soon, though. I think he might feel the need to, one, win back some of his core fans in light of his affair and two, be in charge again with minimal meddling from studios. And I think him writing Buffy comics over the next few months may find him falling in love with the property all over again.

That's my guess, anyway.

And this is a big, big reach but the synopsis for Season 12 that Joss is writing says...

"Buffy finds herself in a time warp that could alter the fate of the world and could spell the end for Buffy, her friends, and the Slayers, forever."

This miiiiight be a way to undo some events done in the finale, setting up the "chosen one" rule once again for a new show.
Doubtful, but hey, it's possible. I'm sure he doesn't want to piss off any fans that have invested in the comics over the years.

Metalwolf

03-25-2018, 08:46 PM

Krutch

03-25-2018, 09:34 PM

I think I will be the odd person out and say that I prefer the old original movie much more over the tv series. The episodes I really enjoyed though was the one episode about the were-hyena people and the time they tried to bring Buffy and Dawn's mother back from the grave using a dark ritual, the video game too, that was awesome.

The thing that did annoy me a lot was Willow's breaking up with her werewolf boyfriend and the breakup being so tramatic, it 'turns' her lesbian. To me it's just an old crappy trope that makes me stop taking a character seriously because it just makes them look petty and dramatic, like they just gave up totally on all men and now swing women just because of one cheating jerkwad of a boyfriend.I like the movie for what it was. It's interesting to watch now to see all the little seeds of ideas planted within it, and how they honed in on what worked.

Yeah, the videogames were all surprisingly decent. The one for GameCube was the best one imo. It's a long, long, long shot but I'd love to have a Buffy game in VR someday. Would likely be a fan project if anything.

I never got the impression that Oz's breakup with Will "turned" her lesbian. I never saw any connective tissue between Oz and Tara at all, to be honest (outside of the one episode he came back for.) It just felt like a break up, followed by meeting someone new.

MsMarvelDuckie

03-25-2018, 11:46 PM

Ooh! Hreat thread. My fave Buffy ep? Hush. Hands down. Followed by the mysical one. Angel I loved the one where they went to Lorne's home dimension in Pylia.

Krutch

03-26-2018, 12:15 AM

Hush is brilliant. Angel I don't tend to rewatch as much but I remember the one you're talking about.

If you're into the show, I'd really recommend subscribing to The Passion of the Nerd (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeKXXs1A7EC60_AXoOl1Hsg)'s channel. He's going through each episode breaking down themes and such. I usually use this video of his to introduce friends to the show....
DYPF0hgPjzY

sdp

03-26-2018, 12:20 AM

newfan

03-26-2018, 07:43 AM

I can't think of a fav ep off the top of my head, just going over the seasons in my head, I don't remember the last one being one of my favourites.

A for characters, yeah I liked Spike too (mentioned above) the likeable bad guy (or lovable a**hole I've sometimes referred) , sort of like Crowley in Supernatural although Spike did eventually become one of the good guys.

Dawn took some time for me, I got used to her being around by the end but didn't like her character for a large part. Not watched the eps in a while though.

Wesley

03-26-2018, 10:32 AM

Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel are two of my top 3 favourite dramas. Up there with the 1960s tv series The Fugitive.

I liked Buffy and Angel when they were still airing around 2002/2003, even though I only saw some episodes here and there of both shows. I only really became a big fan when I went back and watched the entire series of both shows nearly a decade ago.

Buffy season 7 was the weakest season, but still watchable, imo.

Buffyverse has some of the best heroes and villains ever.

NinjaPug

03-26-2018, 11:37 AM

I'm sill pissed Angel got cancelled because they asked for an early indication on renewal/cancellation. If they waited until May it would've been renewed.

Krutch

03-26-2018, 10:47 PM

I used to love this show called Big Wolf on CampusSo i found the pilot on YouTube and watched it last night as I passed out. I can see the charm :P

Dawn took some time for me, I got used to her being around by the end but didn't like her character for a large part.She's awful aside from select episodes from Season 7. She usually just whined and complained about everything Buffy did until she was told to leave or shut up. Missed opportunity with that character I say.

Buffy season 7 was the weakest season, but still watchable, imo.Yeah, for most people it's a toss up between season 1 and 7. Season 1 has nostalgia but attrocious production values. Season 7 has alot going on and stronger story telling, but it's just kind of stale.

I'm sill pissed Angel got cancelled because they asked for an early indication on renewal/cancellation. If they waited until May it would've been renewed.It was a stupid d*ck measuring contest between creative and network. In the end only the fans lost :(

drgon78

03-28-2018, 08:40 AM

I love Buffy, Angel was not as good but still fun well at least season 1 and most of season 5.

I liked Dawn but wish they developed her better though she had a lot of improvements in season 7...for the most part.

Still mad at them turning Willow gay since technically she should have been bi.

plastroncafe

03-28-2018, 10:27 AM

There are certainly aspects of the Grr Argh verse that hasn't aged well, and the bi-erasure is certainly part of that.

Krutch

03-28-2018, 04:51 PM

Still mad at them turning Willow gay since technically she should have been bi.

There are certainly aspects of the Grr Argh verse that hasn't aged well, and the bi-erasure is certainly part of that.Hmm? Trying to follow what you guys mean. Because she used to date men she's 100 bi? Is that a rule? I thought that was just part of her growing up and figuring herself out.

Spike Spiegel

03-29-2018, 07:25 AM

I used to love this show called Big Wolf on Campus, I re-watched it recently and still think it's great. I know many people described it as Buffy for kids and as much as people have always raved about Buffy I never got a chance to get into it.

Oh man, I remember watching that on FOX/ABC Family as an impressionable young lad around the year 2000 or so. The characters were very well done, IMO.

If Buffy's like a darker version of that in some ways, maybe I'll give it a chance.

tZZmCzYJx2Q

plastroncafe

03-29-2018, 09:21 AM

Hmm? Trying to follow what you guys mean. Because she used to date men she's 100 bi? Is that a rule? I thought that was just part of her growing up and figuring herself out.

It's more than possible that Willow-the-Character views herself as either straight or gay. The issue is that Willow-the-Character isn't real, and is really the mouthpiece for the screenwriter(s).

There was never really the option, or the lipservice given, for her to be bisexual. She was straight when she was in a different-sex relationship, and then gay/lesbian when she was in a same-sex relationship.

And that inbetween phase was here just ...figuring things out.
That erases the very real existence of people who aren't figuring it out, and are just bisexual.

The writers get close to bisexuality when they bring in Dark Willow, and then Willow Prime says, That's me as a vampire? I'm all all evil, and slutty, and I think I'm kinda gay.

Or something to that effect.

It's a dated nitpick of mine.
Just another instance where the show illustrates that it's aged.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Wesley

03-29-2018, 10:31 AM

I used to love this show called Big Wolf on Campus, I re-watched it recently and still think it's great. I know many people described it as Buffy for kids and as much as people have always raved about Buffy I never got a chance to get into it.

I wasn’t a big fan, but I liked Big Wolf on Campus. I used to watch it on rte two around 2000/2001, but then forgot about it, probably because it stopped airing on that channel. Thought it was a good introduction to the supernatural world, just a year or two before I found out about Buffy. Haven’t watched the show in ages, though.

ZariusTwo

03-29-2018, 10:44 AM

Fox Kids UK used to rerun a couple of seasons of Big Wolf, the same episodes repeatedly for two years. I caught the very first season on a separate channel

Krutch

03-30-2018, 07:11 AM

It's more than possible that Willow-the-Character views herself as either straight or gay. The issue is that Willow-the-Character isn't real, and is really the mouthpiece for the screenwriter(s).

There was never really the option, or the lipservice given, for her to be bisexual. She was straight when she was in a different-sex relationship, and then gay/lesbian when she was in a same-sex relationship.

And that inbetween phase was here just ...figuring things out.
That erases the very real existence of people who aren't figuring it out, and are just bisexual.

The writers get close to bisexuality when they bring in Dark Willow, and then Willow Prime says, That's me as a vampire? I'm all all evil, and slutty, and I think I'm kinda gay.

Or something to that effect.

It's a dated nitpick of mine.
Just another instance where the show illustrates that it's aged.
Nothing more, nothing less.
I don't understand how it's dated other than -and I really don't like using this overused term- appealing to SJWs with inclusivity writing.

I think there's plenty of people who go through Willow's journey just as she did. And not having her ponder the possibility of being bisexual doesn't exclude it's existence, it's just not pandering.

By the same logic, you could make the same argument if she was bisexual, that it's excluding homosexuals. It's neither. It's just giving the character one direction or the other.

Just my two cents ;)

Willow: This isn't about the witch thing. It's about the other changes in my life.
Tara: I trust you, I just... I don't know where I'm gonna fit in in your life when—
Willow: When... I change back? Yeah, this is a college thing - Just a little experimentation before I get over the thrill and head back to boys' town. You think that?
Tara: Should I?
Willow: You know, I'm really sorry that I didn't establish my lesbo street cred before I got into this relationship. You're the only woman I've ever fallen in love with, so how on earth could you ever take me seriously?

Krutch

03-30-2018, 08:45 AM

For what it's worth, if you go back and rewatch 4x19 "New Moon Rising" when Oz returns, you can see Willow's still going through the process of figuring herself out.

(After staying up all night talking)
Willow: Well, I believe a manly sized breakfast is in order. Don't you?
Oz: Or we could just sleep a while. *takes her hand* Whatever you want.
Willow: ...I'll have the less confusing waffles right now.

Buffy: What did you say to Oz?
Willow: I was going to tell him. But then we started hanging out and could just feel everything coming back.

Willow: I kind of feel like my heads going to explode.
Tara: But I'm saying, I know what Oz means to you.
Willow: How can you, when I'm not even sure? I mean, I know what he meant to me. But he left, and... everything changed. I changed, and then we —
Tara: What?
Willow: I don't know. I just — life was starting to get so good again, and... you're a big part of that. And here comes the thing I wanted most of all, and... I don't know what to do. I want to know, but I don't.

plastroncafe

03-30-2018, 10:39 AM

You could make that argument, except that we have homosexual representation in Media. Sure it's not great, but it's getting better.
Bisexual representation, not so much.
Though admittedly, this to is getting better. And that's what I mean when I say that this show has not aged well.

And the two dialogue strips that were just represented, very accurately represent how bisexuality is seen within the gay community. That it's just straight people sowing their oats, having a laugh, and then going right back to their heterosexual partners.

Even if Willow were bisexual, and had broken up with Tara to go back to Oz, people would be saying she was straight, that her attraction to Tara was a phase. Heck she has to reassure Tara that she is in fact attracted to her, which is something she will probably wouldn't have to do if Willow came into this relationship from a previous same-sex relationship.
That's what I mean by Bi Erasure.

As someone who's experienced this first-hand, trust me it's alive and well in the gay community.

Krutch

03-30-2018, 11:16 AM

Fair enough :)

Respectfully, I feel her journey made sense to the character. I get that you're speaking in a broader sense that goes outside the show and to the writers, but within the show it's completely reasonable for Willow to have taken the path she did.

And it's not like bisexuality doesn't exist in the Buffyverse. Glory, Darla, and Drusilla are all bisexual - Darla and Dru even had sex on Angel. And beyond the show, Buffy begins exploring that side of herself as well from what I've gathered... I didn't really keep up with the comics beyond the first few issues of season 8.

ABrown

04-02-2018, 02:18 PM

As a HUGE Buffy/Angel fan, I think I'm about due for a complete rewatch of both shows.

Krutch

04-04-2018, 10:33 AM

As a HUGE Buffy/Angel fan, I think I'm about due for a complete rewatch of both shows.The thought is appealing, but like a few other shows that are a part of my daily routine, the idea is less compelling since ive seen every episode so many times already that watching them chronologically probably wouldn't do much for me.

ABrown

03-10-2022, 06:55 PM

I didn't know where to post this. This thread will work. Happy 25th anniversary to the series premiere of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. An amazing show, one of my favorite ever created.

CyberCubed

03-10-2022, 07:57 PM

I rewatched all of Buffy/Angel last year after not having watched either for about 15 years. Most of it is still great. The problems I have are the same ones I had when they aired (Spike nearly raping Buffy in the bathroom in Season 6 is the low point of the entire series), but it all holds up. Besides you know Kennedy and the potential slayers in Season 7.

Kennedy was an awful replacement for Tara.

drgon78

03-11-2022, 05:51 AM

Kennedy was just plain awful and I couldn't stand many of the potential slayers and most of the ones I did like ended up dead. I hated Andrew for killing Jonathan and being one of the most annoying characters on the show. Personally the show was never the same after the death of Buffy's mother. Also not a fan of Buffy and Giles falling out because of Spike which was never properly resolved.

Even though the near rape of Buffy was the series low point it did lead to Spike doing something Angel didn't, he actually went and earned his soul back.

CyberCubed

03-11-2022, 06:29 AM

Andrew had some real funny episodes in Season 7 so I didn't mind him sticking around. The breakup of Xander/Anya's wedding was another low point and they had no idea what to do with Anya after that in Season 7 as a result.

They should have made Anya the main villain for a season if they had some extra time.

Andrew NDB

12-06-2023, 12:49 PM

Just watched the original movie on Max, then started watching Buffy season 1 on Hulu. And for the movie, yes, I peeked at Whedon's "Origin" comic that I'm understanding is a truer and more unaltered version of his original script for the movie that better serves as a prequel to the show.

So the movie still sucks (and now I'm picking up on Whedon's anti-republican snarkiness, and I also just noticed Ben Affleck as a random gym extra!) but man, the show, what a nostalgia trip. That opening titles sequence hit and I was "back," lol. I think I'll enjoy going back through this. I don't think I missed any episodes ages ago but I probably missed at least a few. And I know I didn't see whole seasons of Angel.

Is it true Whedon made Buffy a lesbian pretty much out of nowhere in the "season 8" comics?

TMNTFanatic4Life

12-06-2023, 03:44 PM

Xander saving the World from Dark Willow was great. He

With words, not any kind of special weapons or spells.

Brilliant!

Andrew NDB

12-06-2023, 03:55 PM

CyberCubed

12-06-2023, 04:17 PM

I rewatched the shows about 2 years ago after not seeing them for about 15 years. They're still great although the last two seasons are weaker than everything before.

Andrew NDB

12-07-2023, 01:46 PM

I rewatched the shows about 2 years ago after not seeing them for about 15 years. They're still great although the last two seasons are weaker than everything before.

I seem to remember -- while she was very cute -- that the arrival of Dawn sort of cheapened things. I guess I thought there was going to be a bigger payoff there? I think it seemed pretty obvious the cast was getting a little older so hey, let's create out of thin air this younger sister for Buffy to keep the attention of younger audiences. I don't remember thinking she added much to things.

TheCanadiandrome

12-07-2023, 04:36 PM

Andrew NDB

12-07-2023, 04:46 PM

I'd also add Spike's sacrifice at the Series Finale

Oh, right! To then be resurrected on Angel. I don't remember, did Buffy ever show up on Angel? Particularly after Buffy ended?

CyberCubed

12-07-2023, 05:14 PM

Dawn was fine, she comes in Season 5 one of the best seasons. The last two seasons are where the show runs out of steam, although Season 6 does have some high points.

Coola Yagami

12-07-2023, 09:26 PM

Several moments stay with me:

* Buffy sacrificing herself in a season finale.

* The death of Buffy's mom episode.

* The Dracula episode.

* The episode with the creepy silent grinning things.

* Spike going on a crusade to be worthy of Buffy (getting his soul back).

I liked the implications that Buffy's buddies revived her because they thought she'd be stuck in hell or something similar, but actually they pulled her out of heaven. Buffy finally found peace and was brought back to a world of pain and suffering, and she had to smile and suck it up cause she knew her friends meant well.

Andrew NDB

12-25-2023, 02:05 AM

And this moment:

UFTuim4KR1A

Andrew NDB

12-31-2023, 04:27 PM

One oddity: I'm well into season 3 now and a little bit ago Faith just showed up. It's said in the episode that there's like a Watchers retreat where the Watchers organization gather for a few days and compare notes and such. It's also said that Giles never gets invited to these shindigs.

What? There is only ONE Slayer on the planet at any given time (well, beyond the fluke that created Kendra, and then Faith) which means that Giles is the only actual Watcher doing any Slayer watching. Wouldn't he be like the preeminent Watcher of the whole organization, like the Rockstar of the whole thing?

TheCanadiandrome

01-01-2024, 02:45 PM

Oh, right! To then be resurrected on Angel. I don't remember, did Buffy ever show up on Angel? Particularly after Buffy ended?

briefly, alebit I might be wrong. I know she's mentioned plenty of times and one episode it's implied she's there, but SMG didn't appear, and all we saw was the back of her head

Andrew NDB

01-22-2024, 01:38 PM

Finished with season 4. I enjoyed the Riley/Adam plot through the conclusion there but the actual final episode of the season (which was written and directed by Whedon himself) was pretty weaksauce, and tonally a weird end to the season. It's the one with the First Slayer haunting Buffy and the gang in their dreams. I guess it's supposed to be trippy and weird and even Lynchian in some ways but it all falls flat.

Andrew NDB

02-10-2024, 06:47 PM

https://collider.com/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-spin-off/

"Buffy doesn't need a reboot, it needs a spinoff."

Yes! For the multiple slayers out there! Yes! For LGBTQ representation and bisexual visibility! Ye... wait, what?

TheCanadiandrome

02-14-2024, 09:30 PM

what a terrible article, like wtf

ZariusTwo

02-22-2024, 02:42 AM

Andrew NDB

02-22-2024, 10:40 AM

The current Buffy spin-off, Audible's Slayers, has just been cancelled on Disney's orders

https://www.thepopverse.com/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-slayers-buffyverse-audible-disney-amazon-cancelled-cancel-ending

Canceled? I never thought for a moment it was anything but a one-off thing. Isn't it like entirely a weird alternate reality "what if?" thing anyway?

ZariusTwo

02-22-2024, 11:51 AM

Canceled? I never thought for a moment it was anything but a one-off thing. Isn't it like entirely a weird alternate reality "what if?" thing anyway?

Like all expanded universe stuff, it's of dubious canonicity and contradicts other 'sequels' like the original season eight comics, but it is supposed to be a follow-up. It ended on a cliffhanger so they were hoping to continue.

Andrew NDB

02-17-2025, 02:21 PM

Just made it to season 7 for the first time since... the first time. A few things:

* The "double meat" episode where Buffy starts working at the McDonald's-like place where it turns out a monster is eating people but she's afraid they're being turned into meat. This felt like a "classic Buffy" episode at just the right time.

* Huh, Anya and Xander don't actually get married? Wow, I completely mis-remember that whole thing. And peeking ahead a little bit... she even dies in season 7? Yeesh! And here I thought the Buffy revival would have to explain away not only Xander but Anya.

* The final confrontation in season 6 with Evil Willow and Xander. It was still meaningful, but for some reason I remembered Xander's speech to Willow being much longer, and much more teary-eyed. Still, it was fine.

CyberCubed

02-17-2025, 03:08 PM

I thought you had finished watching Buffy a long time ago, surprised its taking you so long. Season 6 was disliked when it aired but I think a lot of it has aged better over the years. The Warren trio resemble modern day incels and Buffy coming back to life with depression fits. Tara dying was emotional and sad and the Dark Willow stuff was good. In retrospect I wish Tara had survived, but her actress also wanted to leave the show at the time.

Two things in Season 6 are still awful though. Spikes attempted rape of Buffy in the bathroom (literally made no sense because with her slayer strength she should of easily pushed him off her, instead she's written like a normal girl without powers in that scene), and almost ruined Spike himself. The second of course is Xander walking out on the marriage with Anya, then Spike/Anya sleeping together (which also made no sense), but whatever. It almost feels like the writers were purposely trying to piss fans off with those moments.

Andrew NDB

02-17-2025, 03:15 PM

I thought you had finished watching Buffy a long time ago, surprised its taking you so long.

I took a break a little while ago. Angel was starting to bore me and season 6 wasn't super better, either. Post-Glory there was a big lack of direction that I don't think really got "better" until the last 5 or 6 episodes of the season.

Season 6 was disliked when it aired but I think a lot of it has aged better over the years. The Warren trio resemble modern day incels

Their tech really pulls me out of things. I know Buffy is a little outlandish as a concept, but at least in all the earlier seasons there wasn't anything OUTRAGEOUS going on, like Mr. Freeze's freeze ray freezing people alive or anything. With them, it's like we're stepping into the 1960s Batman show camp. At worst, Buffy acquired a bazooka in an earlier season and it was awesome. But that's, like, tech that exists.

Two things in Season 6 are still awful though. Spikes attempted rape of Buffy in the bathroom (literally made no sense because with her slayer strength she should of easily pushed him off her, instead she's written like a normal girl without powers in that scene), and almost ruined Spike himself.

Yeah, that was weird! She didn't even try to bat him away, really. The REASON for the scene kind of makes sense, at least. After all, if Spike really is this honest to goodness great guy now through and through then what's even the difference if he has a soul or doesn't have one? In fact, it even makes Angel look bad because if Spike can be so great without one, wtf was Angel doing still murdering all those people as Angelus for so long (or even when he had a soul and then lost it again and IMMEDIATELY went back to killing)?

Still, they could have accomplished this in so many other and better ways.

The second of course is Xander walking out on the marriage with Anya, then Spike/Anya sleeping together (which also made no sense), but whatever. It almost feels like the writers were purposely trying to piss fans off with those moments.

Just trying to be provocative for provocative's sake, I guess.