Bebop and Rocksteady

[Utromshredderhater]

After seeing the latest IDW micro featuring Bebop and Rocksteay (Which Rocked) Who would be stoked if they made it to the Show

[Allio]

we already have Bradford and Xever; though if we had to have Bebop and Rocksteady then they should be purple dragons only

[n-zero]

They were on the leaked list of Nickelodeon series toys, so they'll either show up during the crossover with the classic cartoon or they'll be getting new versions this season.

[Utromshredderhater]

Hopefully new versions. Besides I never understood two against 4. Why not even it up

[NinjaMan]

There's a Walmart toy listing for them. Probably will be Fong and one of his dragons. Especially after seeing how they introduced another well known character today.

[CyberCubed]

There's a Walmart toy listing for them. Probably will be Fong and one of his dragons. Especially after seeing how they introduced another well known character today.

Uh, no. Bebop and Rocksteady's human designs look nothing like them.

[Coola Yagami]

Uh, no. Bebop and Rocksteady's human designs look nothing like them.

and your point is....?

Dr. Falco wasn't exactly a muscular blonde.... nor was Timothy a nerdy delivery boy... nor was Rahzar ever human...

Either way I'm sure Bebop and Rocksteady are reffering to those over-sized re-done classic characters toyline.

[CyberCubed]

and your point is....?

Dr. Falco wasn't exactly a muscular blonde.... nor was Timothy a nerdy delivery boy...

Bebop/Rocksteady were major characters, Rat King never had a real human origin before Nick (his Mirage one was too brief and odd), and Mutagen Man is a minor character.

There's a reason why IDW kept their human designs looking almost the same.

[Coola Yagami]

Bebop/Rocksteady were major characters, Rat King never had a real human origin before Nick (his Mirage one was too brief and odd), and Mutagen Man is a minor character.

There's a reason why IDW kept their human designs looking almost the same.

However, Rat King always looked like a muscular blonde dude, not a skinny black hair guy.

What would you do if the show DID turn Fong and them into Bebop and Rocksteady? Learn that it's the way THEY want to run the show, not the way YOU want it.

[CyberCubed]

However, Rat King always looked like a muscular blonde dude, not a skinny black hair guy.

Well in 4kids he was a clone of Bishop, so not really. Rat King's origin was always changing based on continuity.

What would you do if the show DID turn Fong and them into Bebop and Rocksteady? Learn that it's the way THEY want to run the show, not the way YOU want it.

I think it would be horrible. People love Bebop and Rocksteady's human designs, I wouldn't see Fong as them because that's not how I view them as humans.

[Coola Yagami]

Well in 4kids he was a clone of Bishop, so not really. Rat King's origin was always changing based on continuity.



I meant his appearance, since you're talking about Bebop and Rocksteady's human forms. I mean you're so hung up on their human appearance, Rat King could have been some blonde guy that would later turn into the Rat King,

Ironically enough, OT Rat King design-wise was basically Mirage Rat King with a more child-friendly appearance. Every other version, including the more Mirage-ish 2K3 series decided to change his appearance.

[n-zero]

Either way I'm sure Bebop and Rocksteady are reffering to those over-sized re-done classic characters toyline.

There were prices attached to them, and those suggest they're in the Nickelodeon line. The Classics are much more expensive.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I think it is safe to say that Dogpund and Xever are the Rocksteady and Bebop of this cartoon. Not saying that I prefer them over the former but I appreciate them giving Shredder different henchmen.

[Drose18]

I'm betting the two purple dragon guys not the leader will get mutated.

[Coola Yagami]

I say it's a good way to get a mutant army. Kinda want Karai to accidentally get mutated too to learn her lesson.

[CyberCubed]

I can't believe people keep thinking those throwaway purple dragon characters are going to be Bebop and Rocksteady. They're throwaway characters who were just part of Xever's gang, I doubt we'll ever see them again now.

If Bebop/Rocksteady are in this show we simply haven't seen their human forms yet. Be on the look out for a black guy with a purple mohawk and shades, and a short white guy with blonde hair in army pants.

THAT is who Bebop and Rocksteady are.

[NinjaMan]

I'm betting the two purple dragon guys not the leader will get mutated.

Maybe the Leader Fong will become Hun by using Mutagen to give him a powerup.

[Turtle-X]

i hope they show up. they've been pretty awesome thus far in the IDW comics.

[Ninjinister]

There were prices attached to them, and those suggest they're in the Nickelodeon line. The Classics are much more expensive.

Not to mention the Classics are Toys Я Us exclusive for retail.

[Coola Yagami]

I can't believe people keep thinking those throwaway purple dragon characters are going to be Bebop and Rocksteady. They're throwaway characters who were just part of Xever's gang, I doubt we'll ever see them again now.

If Bebop/Rocksteady are in this show we simply haven't seen their human forms yet. Be on the look out for a black guy with a purple mohawk and shades, and a short white guy with blonde hair in army pants.

THAT is who Bebop and Rocksteady are.

I can't believe you keep thinking everything is going to be exactly the way it was in past media. I don't remember Rahzar being a ninja master in the movie. Nor was Traag a Golem.

[drgon78]

I do hope Bebop and Rocksteady's human designs are similar enough to be familiar like that Russian guy would make a good Rhino hint, hint, hint.:) That is if they appear in this show's universe.

[Allio]

I can't believe you keep thinking everything is going to be exactly the way it was in past media. I don't remember Rahzar being a ninja master in the movie. Nor was Traag a Golem.

Cybercubed just wants the show to be "Fan-pandering" the series

[martinitolove]

Maby those figures at toys'r'us are the IDW-versions of Bebop & Rocksteady. For sure there would be a big market for these versions of those beloved characters...

[NinjaMan]

Maby those figures at toys'r'us are the IDW-versions of Bebop & Rocksteady. For sure there would be a big market for these versions of those beloved characters...

Nah those figures are for the nick show they were listed with the Rahzar figure who debuted in yesterday's episode.

[n-zero]

It might be interesting to see takes on Bebop and Rocksteady that are based around the music styles that they're named after, rather than the 80's punk motif - Bebop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bebop) could have 1940's zoot suit design while Rocksteady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocksteady) would have a more Jamaican-inspired wardrobe.

[Casey]

Maby those figures at toys'r'us are the IDW-versions of Bebop & Rocksteady. For sure there would be a big market for these versions of those beloved characters...

Do they even make IDW figures of the turtles? I didn't even know that was a thing. I'm not that into collecting figures though.

[n-zero]

Maby those figures at toys'r'us are the IDW-versions of Bebop & Rocksteady. For sure there would be a big market for these versions of those beloved characters...

The figures were listed at $8.99, along with these other figures:

Battle Shell & Larp variants of the turtles
Kirby Bat
Casey Jones
Tiger Claw
Rahzar
Slash
Mutagen Man

The price means that they can't be the classics line, as those retail for $19.99. The lineup of characters are all from the Nick series, and this line of figures has never featured characters outside of this series.

[CyberCubed]

I'm pretty confident if Bebop/Rocksteady show up their designs will be similar to the OT, rather than more "monster" like such as the other Nick mutant designs, and their human forms will be recognizable.

1. Dogpound/Fishface were human prior to mutation, and are obviously a new mutant henchmen team inspired by the originals. Also with Dogpound being Rahzar now its even more obvious.

2. IDW kept Bebop/Rocksteady's human designs looking as similar as they could.

3. Bebop's purple mohawk and shades will not make sense if his human form doesn't have them.

[Coola Yagami]

I'm pretty confident if Bebop/Rocksteady show up their designs will be similar to the OT, rather than more "monster" like such as the other Nick mutant designs, and their human forms will be recognizable.

1. Dogpound/Fishface were human prior to mutation, and are obviously a new mutant henchmen team inspired by the originals. Also with Dogpound being Rahzar now its even more obvious.

2. IDW kept Bebop/Rocksteady's human designs looking as similar as they could.

3. Bebop's purple mohawk and shades will not make sense if his human form doesn't have them.
Who says he'll have a Mohawk. Who says it'll be purple. Could be a black dude with random blonde hair. Who says bebop will even have a human form. It's all up in nicks hands and they keep surprising us at every turn. Did you for a moment expect Rahzar to be a super form of dogpound who used to be an all new character named Chris Bradford. Just wait and see. I see little reason for them to suddenly bring in new gang members anyways. They could even be the last remaining human foot members. Who's to say one of em doesn't have a purple Mohawk under the mask.

[CyberCubed]

Who says he'll have a Mohawk. Who says it'll be purple. Could be a black dude with random blonde hair. Who says bebop will even have a human form. It's all up in nicks hands and they keep surprising us at every turn. Did you for a moment expect Rahzar to be a super form of dogpound who used to be an all new character named Chris Bradford. Just wait and see. I see little reason for them to suddenly bring in new gang members anyways. They could even be the last remaining human foot members. Who's to say one of em doesn't have a purple Mohawk under the mask.

Because it's like changing Baxter to white again, there's no reason to alter their human forms.

[Andrew NDB]

Maby those figures at toys'r'us are the IDW-versions of Bebop & Rocksteady.

Because there's some kind of precedent for that...?

[Aaronardo]

As I typed this, I realized that, because of his fate in Turtles Forever, HUN might be Tokka in the Nick series! Well, it IS just an idea. Since Ciro Neili kinda hinted at Hun coming into the series.


Anyway, Bebop and Rocksteady MIGHT happen. I wouldn't see any reason in bringing them in since we already have Rahzar and Fishface running around and (hopefully, eventually) Tokka. It just wouldn't make sense. Now, having them as a throwaway joke would be pretty cool, but nothing more. Like Raph's "turtle in a trenchcoat" joke.

[raph27]

As I typed this, I realized that, because of his fate in Turtles Forever, HUN might be Tokka in the Nick series! Well, it IS just an idea. Since Ciro Neili kinda hinted at Hun coming into the series.
Especially since they rip open a portal to the OT, this MIGHT happen. Would be so awesome.

[Coola Yagami]

Because it's like changing Baxter to white again, there's no reason to alter their human forms.

However black Baxter never turned into a fly in the comics or 2k3 version, the white one did. I don't see you complaining. No one cares. If you want the OT with a more modern and adult tone go read IDW and leave Cito alone to do what he wants.

[NinjaPug]

I've never understood why people use the IDW comic as a basis for anything related to this show.

[CyberCubed]

The point is everyone recognizes Bebop and Rocksteady's human forms. They will look slightly different than their OT selves, so did the IDW ones...but they will still be the same.

I will be very angry if Bebop is not black and doesn't have a purple mohawk and shades before mutation. Rocksteady's design is a bit more generic, but as long as he has light hair and army pants I'm fine.

[n-zero]

The point is everyone recognizes Bebop and Rocksteady's human forms.

Really? Because its been 26 years since that pilot aired ...

[CyberCubed]

Really? Because its been 26 years since that pilot aired ...

???

People can't rewatch episodes or DVDs? Does it matter how long ago it aired when Season 1 is the most rewatched season of the OT?

[Avatar Yuffie]

No need. Bradford and Xever are already their stand in.

[CyberCubed]

No need. Bradford and Xever are already their stand in.

It sounds like they are coming in though. They have toy listings just like Rahzar did (and that was before we knew Rahzar was even going to be in the show), and Ciro has dropped hints about them and mentioned them a few times.

[NinjaPug]

Yeah, I think Bebop and Rocksteady are definitely coming this season based on the leaked toy listing. I cant wait to see their designs.

[n-zero]

???

People can't rewatch episodes or DVDs? Does it matter how long ago it aired when Season 1 is the most rewatched season of the OT?


But that audience isn't necessarily who the Nickelodeon series is being written for. IDW holds onto things like the human designs of Bebop and Rocksteady because the comic is written for adult fans of the series, who most likely cut their teeth on the OT. The Nickelodeon cartoon, while throwing nods to the OT, is written for a new audience. If it was written with slavish devotion to the OT, April would be a reporter instead of a high school student. Casey would be a one-note Dirty Harry parody. Leatherhead would be a cajun-accented villain rather than the Mirage-based ally. Rat King would be a buff guy wrapped in bandages instead of a zombified plague doctor. Slash would be Bebop's pet instead of Raphael's, and Mutagen Man's name would be "Seymour Gutz" instead of "Timothy."

While the showrunners are old school turtle fans, and often times throw in nods to other old school fans, we need to remember that they are also creators trying to express their own vision, and their main target audience is children who don't come with the baggage of a lifetime of fandom. Human Bebop and Rocksteady were nothing more than a brief setup for their mutant versions, and were relevant for all of ten minutes of a TV pilot. It's not the type of detail that they need to be married to when creating this series. slavish devotion to the look characters designed based on a specific decade's street fashion is not a requirement for the audience they are seeking, and we should trust them to make their own decisions in how they update classic characters rather than insisting that it has to be exactly as we remember it. They haven't let us down yet.

[Coola Yagami]

The thing you seem to keep forgetting (or are too stubborn to admit) is that what happens in IDW doesn't have any bearing in the cartoon. The Nickshow wants to be all new, the IDW comic wants to almost remake the OT with a more mature setting and several Mirage/2K3 elements. OF COURSE they're gonna go with the old designs for Bebop and Rocksteady in the IDW comics since they're going for that whole nostalgia modern remake thing. However, the Nickshow is all about new things, big surprises and new twists on old characters in ways we never could have guessed. If they want to turn Fong and Sid into Bebop and Rocksteady.... or bring in Hun and turn him and that Russian General into Bebop and Rocksteady.... or make them animal mutants, they will.

Hell for all we know, we could have the Russian General be Rocksteady and a black dude with a blonde ponytail named Hun turn into Bebop. Who really knows. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Xever got bitten by a warthog and then...

[CyberCubed]

I view Bebop and Rocksteady's human forms as their characters. If they were just animals prior to mutation they just wouldn't be the same.

Also they shouldn't whitewash Bebop.

[CinematicESP]

If they do show up on the show, I think it will be a dramatically different take on the characters, much like the other new versions of characters we've seen before. I imagine they won't be replacing Dogpound and Fishface as Shredder's goons, but be their own thing.

Also, am I allowed to ask where one might find this leaked toy listing?

[NinjaPug]

Also, am I allowed to ask where one might find this leaked toy listing?

Check out the 2013 TMNT Figures thread in the Toys forum. Look for posts from Hurrijak.

[Coola Yagami]

I view Bebop and Rocksteady's human forms as their characters. If they were just animals prior to mutation they just wouldn't be the same.

Also they shouldn't whitewash Bebop.

So in other words... like every other classic character that's shown up in this show so far?

[CyberCubed]

So in other words... like every other classic character that's shown up in this show so far?

I countered this before. Mutagen Man is a minor character, nobody cares that his human form was different. And Rat King never had a real origin.

[Coola Yagami]

I countered this before. Mutagen Man is a minor character, nobody cares that his human form was different. And Rat King never had a real origin.

Mutagen Man hardly counts since he was a one-shot. Rat King was always a muscular looking blonde guy (before 2K3 changed that). That was his trademark appearance. You keep confusing origin with appearance when it comes to Rat King. What does him being a blonde guy have to do with his origin? He easily could have been some blonde guy scientist that somehow got muscular or whatever due to the Mutagen. When you take that into consideration, it really doesn't matter who or what Bebop and Rocksteady were before as long as we get some sort of mutant rhino and warthog. Your points are invalid when we take into account the massive redesigns for Traag, Karai, and Casey.

[CyberCubed]

Your points are invalid when we take into account the massive redesigns for Traag, Karai, and Casey.

Karai and Casey are kids in this version, they're teens just like April. It was obvious they would all look a little different. And even then they're still all recognizable. They had to age these characters down when they decided to write the story they wanted to do.

Yeah Traag is very different, but he's still a rock monsters.

There's no reason for Rocksteady and Bebop not to have memorable human designs similar to their past ones. Of course they won't look exactly the same, but similar traits (like how IDW changed some of their looks but kept them distinct) would be obvious.

[Coola Yagami]

Karai and Casey are kids in this version, they're teens just like April. It was obvious they would all look a little different. And even then they're still all recognizable. They had to age these characters down when they decided to write the story they wanted to do.

Yeah Traag is very different, but he's still a rock monsters.

There's no reason for Rocksteady and Bebop not to have memorable human designs similar to their past ones. Of course they won't look exactly the same, but similar traits (like how IDW changed some of their looks but kept them distinct) would be obvious.

Stop confusing IDW's modern remake to Nick's complete re-imagining. Karai, Casey and April do not look like younger versions of themselves. They look like all new characters. I count those as dramatic redesigns. I mean before any of this... teenage April with a ponytail? Karai with blonde hair and dark eyeliner? Casey with face paint and missing teeth?

For all we know, Bebop and Rocksteady could be downright mutant animals. Only Ciro knows for sure.

[CyberCubed]

Stop confusing IDW's modern remake to Nick's complete re-imagining. Karai, Casey and April do not look like younger versions of themselves. They look like all new characters. I count those as dramatic redesigns. I mean before any of this... teenage April with a ponytail? Karai with blonde hair and dark eyeliner? Casey with face paint and missing teeth?

LOL, what? Casey looks like a kid version of Casey. I mean how else would a 16 year old Casey look? Also April is a red head, same as she was in 4kids and the 4th movie and even IDW.

Also if it wasn't for that blonde in the back, Karai just looks like a teenage version of Mirage/4kids Karai.

For all we know, Bebop and Rocksteady could be downright mutant animals. Only Ciro knows for sure.

Given the sheer mass of mutants in this show were previously humans, I'm pretty sure they'll be human too. Dogpound/Xever are blatant expies of Bebop/Rocksteady...and they could have went the animal route with them to begin with but chose to make them humans.

[Coola Yagami]

LOL, what? Casey looks like a kid version of Casey. I mean how else would a 16 year old Casey look? Also April is a red head, same as she was in 4kids and the 4th movie and even IDW.

Also if it wasn't for that blonde in the back, Karai just looks like a teenage version of Mirage/4kids Karai.



Given the sheer mass of mutants in this show were previously humans, I'm pretty sure they'll be human too. Dogpound/Xever are blatant expies of Bebop/Rocksteady...and they could have went the animal route with them to begin with but chose to make them humans.

Um... no? How else would a teenage Casey look... how bout not like that? And like I said in the other post, this April is a whole new design, she doesn't look like the 80's April or the 2K3 April in their teens. There's more to her than just being 'some redhead'. And Karai is a completely different character. I mean she wouldn't even look like Mirage/2K3's daughter/younger sister.

Xever and Bradford were Shredder's men and their mutation was an accident. Unlike the OT, this Shredder had no reason to grab random zoo animals and mutate his thugs into them. Now that Shredder had Chris, Xever and I guess, eventually Tiger Claw... there's no reason for him to suddenly hire two extra thugs. For all we know, the Purple Dragons could be sick of being bossed around by Fishface and all the mutant freaks in general... and decide to mutate two of their own, or they have an accident near some Mutagen...

Either way, just be prepared for however Ciro decides to use them in the show. If I know you, you might still whine about 'but it's not the same' but you'll probably end up liking whatever twist and turns Ciro decided to use for those characters. I haven't heard you once complain 'but Rahzar isn't a mutated wolf, and he's not supposed to be bony and spikey and super fast and agile, and he's not supposed to be Chris Bradford'.

Hell, for all we know, Chris might be the new Baxter for this series and become a new mutant per season. Maybe he and Xever have another mutagen mishap and become Bebop and Rocksteady. Who really knows?

[CyberCubed]

I don't see a younger April/Casey/Karai being that much of a departure. You're probably also thinking about how the CG humans in this show look different than 2D animation by default.

As for Bebop and Rocksteady, I'd rather not see them at all than to suffer through a bastardized version of them. IDW has handled them well so I hope the same happens here.

[Coola Yagami]

I don't see a younger April/Casey/Karai being that much of a departure. You're probably also thinking about how the CG humans in this show look different than 2D animation by default.

As for Bebop and Rocksteady, I'd rather not see them at all than to suffer through a bastardized version of them. IDW has handled them well so I hope the same happens here.

Um... no? The CGI has nothing to do with it. That's like saying the TMNT look different with their 3 toes and bandage wraps because of the CGI. I honestly didn't recognize Karai as such until I realized 'oh wait... that's a female ninja... so... omg... THAT'S KARAI???'. As for April, honestly, look at her in the Nick-based comics. If you never heard of the TMNT reboot, would you have thought that kid was April?

As for Bebop and Rocksteady, get ready to be disappointed since they're gonna have an all-new take in this show. Stop bringing up IDW. What part of modern remake VS new re-imagining do you not understand?

[CyberCubed]

As for Bebop and Rocksteady, get ready to be disappointed since they're gonna have an all-new take in this show. Stop bringing up IDW. What part of modern remake VS new re-imagining do you not understand?

They're both reboots. There is no difference.

[Coola Yagami]

They're both reboots. There is no difference.

Stop being blinded by your own short-sightedness. They are both very different.

The IDW comics choose to go for a modern remake of the old show, heavily rooted in nostalgia, while adding in 2K3, Mirage and all-new elements.

The cartoon show goes for an all new take, re-imagining the characters in bold new dramatic takes.

That's why the IDW comics have a more serious take on the 80's Krang, stone warriors, neutrinos and Bebop and Rocksteady, while the Nick show had a whole evil race of Kraang led by a hivemind leader, a stone golem that isn't even a general/sergeant, and most likely a whole different look/take on Bebop and Rocksteady whenever they happen to appear.

[CyberCubed]

Stop being blinded by your own short-sightedness. They are both very different.

The IDW comics choose to go for a modern remake of the old show, heavily rooted in nostalgia, while adding in 2K3, Mirage and all-new elements.

The cartoon show goes for an all new take, re-imagining the characters in bold new dramatic takes.

That's why the IDW comics have a more serious take on the 80's Krang, stone warriors, neutrinos and Bebop and Rocksteady, while the Nick show had a whole evil race of Kraang led by a hivemind leader, a stone golem that isn't even a general/sergeant, and most likely a whole different look/take on Bebop and Rocksteady whenever they happen to appear.

Both IDW and Nick are reboots, its just that Tom Waltz tries to update past characters rather than do totally new things with them.

[Coola Yagami]

Both IDW and Nick are reboots, its just that Tom Waltz tries to update past characters rather than do totally new things with them.

I never said they weren't. But they both do it in completely different ways, so saying there is no difference is being seriously misinformed. In other words, don't get all upset when Bebop and Rocksteady are completely different in the Nick show.

[CyberCubed]

I never said they weren't. But they both do it in completely different ways, so saying there is no difference is being seriously misinformed. In other words, don't get all upset when Bebop and Rocksteady are completely different in the Nick show.

They will be different, but as long as their designs are true to their roots I won't complain.

I definitely don't want to see bones sticking out of them or claws like Dogpound/Rahzar. Yuck.

[The Turtle Terminator]

London TF revealed they are on their way:tgrin:

[Electric]

Now I just wonder if it'll be season 2 or 3

[CyberCubed]

They're in season 2.

[BabyTurtles]

They're in season 2.

they are!?

[Coola Yagami]

They're in season 2.

That's a lot to cram into season 2. It's gonna be a new character per episode without much time to flesh out everybody else. We got eps with Rat King, The Kraang, Spider Bytes AND the new characters, as well as Slash returning at least one more time and Newtralizer too.

[CyberCubed]

That's a lot to cram into season 2. It's gonna be a new character per episode without much time to flesh out everybody else. We got eps with Rat King, The Kraang, Spider Bytes AND the new characters, as well as Slash returning at least one more time and Newtralizer too.

I just hope we see Bebop/Rocksteady as humans for a few episodes walking around like they did with Chris Bradford and Xever.

This show likes to build up characters a lot, such as with Timmy/Mutagen Man and Spike/Slash....so they probably won't go directly to Bebop/Rocksteady either. Probably some build-up with them as human punks.

I'd love to see them join the Purple Dragons before they get mutated.

[Coola Yagami]

I just hope we see Bebop/Rocksteady as humans for a few episodes walking around like they did with Chris Bradford and Xever.

This show likes to build up characters a lot, such as with Timmy/Mutagen Man and Spike/Slash....so they probably won't go directly to Bebop/Rocksteady either. Probably some build-up with them as human punks.

I'd love to see them join the Purple Dragons before they get mutated.

In that case they probably won't be mutated til season 3. Unless they cram in 2-3 new characters per episode.

[Metalwolf]

I just hope we see Bebop/Rocksteady as humans for a few episodes walking around like they did with Chris Bradford and Xever.

This show likes to build up characters a lot, such as with Timmy/Mutagen Man and Spike/Slash....so they probably won't go directly to Bebop/Rocksteady either. Probably some build-up with them as human punks.

I'd love to see them join the Purple Dragons before they get mutated.This show barely builds up characters much at all. I don't mind that they have these two but I'm hoping that these aren't going to be Shredder's new main henchmen, we already have two established characters for that. I'm afraid of this show not developing enough the villains it already has, why do we need more characters that are only just fanservice at this point?

[LeotheLateBloomer]

This show barely builds up characters much at all. I don't mind that they have these two but I'm hoping that these aren't going to be Shredder's new main henchmen, we already have two established characters for that. I'm afraid of this show not developing enough the villains it already has, why do we need more characters that are only just fanservice at this point?

Exactly my point.

[The Turtle Terminator]

This show barely builds up characters much at all. I don't mind that they have these two but I'm hoping that these aren't going to be Shredder's new main henchmen, we already have two established characters for that. I'm afraid of this show not developing enough the villains it already has, why do we need more characters that are only just fanservice at this point?

I seriously hope Nick reads this

[NinjaPug]

I've said it before but there are still 19 episodes left in Season 2. There's plenty of time.

[CyberCubed]

This show barely builds up characters much at all. I don't mind that they have these two but I'm hoping that these aren't going to be Shredder's new main henchmen, we already have two established characters for that. I'm afraid of this show not developing enough the villains it already has, why do we need more characters that are only just fanservice at this point?

Are you being serious? Virtually all the major characters have had build-up. Rat King, Dogpound, Fishface, Slash, and Mutagen Man were all built-up to and were not introduced as mutants right off the bat. We got to know them a bit before hand and then they changed.

Even Casey Jones is getting build-up with his first two appearances being minor and only his third appearance being his "debut" as the vigilante he is.

[Coola Yagami]

I've said it before but there are still 19 episodes left in Season 2. There's plenty of time.

It still sounds too little for all the jazz they already have planned and all the new characters they want to introduce. Some of them, like Slash have already been confirmed to have more than one appearance. Especially if they want to go with the 'Bebop and Rocksteady as humans for an episode or two before they mutate' route. Unless they just use Fong and Sid and make the mutations so wild that Fong gets a purple mohawk in the process. It would be his version of spikes and claws.

[Sabacooza]

Their appearance is probably nothing more than a cameo which would be somewhat disappointing. If they do become regulars, I hope they build them up gradually and don't try to cram too much in too soon.

[The Fifth Turtle]

Their appearance is probably nothing more than a cameo which would be somewhat disappointing. If they do become regulars, I hope they build them up gradually and don't try to cram too much in too soon.

Agreed. I'd like them to tie up some loose ends (ie snakeweed, spider bytez) b4 continuing to add new characters.

[shredder orokusaki]

Now i am waiting to see if they will make them more badass like they are on IDW or stupid like they were in the OT. Since the Nickelodeon cartoon is a lot more serious than the OT i expect to see a more serious version of them. Or else i will not have them working for me.

[The Fifth Turtle]

Now i am waiting to see if they will make them more badass like they are on IDW or stupid like they were in the OT. Since the Nickelodeon cartoon is a lot more serious than the OT i expect to see a more serious version of them. Or else i will not have them working for me.

Even Somewhere in the middle would be cool.

[Metalwolf]

Are you being serious? Virtually all the major characters have had build-up. Rat King, Dogpound, Fishface, Slash, and Mutagen Man were all built-up to and were not introduced as mutants right off the bat. We got to know them a bit before hand and then they changed.

Even Casey Jones is getting build-up with his first two appearances being minor and only his third appearance being his "debut" as the vigilante he is.I am serious. They don't get much chance to get built up before some people want two moronic goons from the OT to take their place, which to me I can't help but think 'Why?' I don't want this show to be a total rehash of the OT. I want it to be it's own thing that goes where it wants to go, and have it's bad guys be a credible threat to the Turtles without an incredible suspension of belief.

Dn't get me wrong, Bebop and Rocksteady are nice characters. I grew up with the OT, and I liked them. But I don't want them, because they are just blatant fanservice now. If they were there from the very beginning, it would be different, but this show is offering up a different dynamic with the bad guys, and I don't want to see that tossed away just so some folks can have more of what they've had in the OT.

[LivingMutagen]

Their appearance is probably nothing more than a cameo which would be somewhat disappointing. If they do become regulars, I hope they build them up gradually and don't try to cram too much in too soon.

Well, would they have action figures and their own designs if they were a cameo? No they wouldn't

[shredder orokusaki]

Well, would they have action figures and their own designs if they were a cameo? No they wouldn't

Where can we see their action figures and designs?

[NinjaPug]

Where can we see their action figures and designs?

Right now only at toy fairs

[CyberCubed]

Their appearance is probably nothing more than a cameo which would be somewhat disappointing. If they do become regulars, I hope they build them up gradually and don't try to cram too much in too soon.

Where did you get the idea this is a cameo? They're getting toys and are full characters.

While we don't know if they'll work for Shredder or not, Bebop and Rocksteady are being introduced later this season as new characters. So I don't know where you got this "cameo" vibe from.

[rickwj324]

Where did you get the idea this is a cameo? They're getting toys and are full characters.

While we don't know if they'll work for Shredder or not, Bebop and Rocksteady are being introduced later this season as new characters. So I don't know where you got this "cameo" vibe from.

I could be wrong, but I got the feeling they meant that BB/RS would only appear as cameos in their HUMAN form, instead of them appearing and having proper intros/buildups such as other characters have (IE: Casey, Fishface, Dogpound, etc). At least the way I read it, they were thinking that for them to appear this season they may not have proper buildups. OP: Correct me if I'm wrong...that's just what I interpreted.

Rick

[Metalwolf]

I could be wrong, but I got the feeling they meant that BB/RS would only appear as cameos in their HUMAN form, instead of them appearing and having proper intros/buildups such as other characters have (IE: Casey, Fishface, Dogpound, etc). At least the way I read it, they were thinking that for them to appear this season they may not have proper buildups. OP: Correct me if I'm wrong...that's just what I interpreted.

RickI hope it's just cameos in their human forms, I really do. 8)

[rickwj324]

I hope it's just cameos in their human forms, I really do. 8)

Agreed.. I don't need to see much of them in human form. It would be nice to see them play a role in one episode but have them turned by the end of it. I'd rather see BB/RS in mutated form as much as possible. Don't really care about their human forms. I did like the Chuck Norris... I mean Bradford character prior to becoming Dogpound (haha) but couldn't stand Fishface's human character.

[CyberCubed]

I'd prefer seeing at least 2-3 episode in their human form before mutation. I'd like to see them join the Purple Dragons and work with those guys for a while.

I just hope to god Bebop/Rocksteady's human forms are similar to the way they always been. Bebop better be a black man with a purple Mohawk and shades, and Rocksteady a blonde guy wearing camo pants.

Even IDW kept their human designs mostly the same. I will throw the biggest pissy fit on this forum if Bebop is not black or if they're just normal animals before mutation.

I just hope to god I don't have to post a rant in a few months. Please Ciro don't let me down.

[Coola Yagami]

I'd prefer seeing at least 2-3 episode in their human form before mutation. I'd like to see them join the Purple Dragons and work with those guys for a while.

I just hope to god Bebop/Rocksteady's human forms are similar to the way they always been. Bebop better be a black man with a purple Mohawk and shades, and Rocksteady a blonde guy wearing camo pants.

Even IDW kept their human designs mostly the same. I will throw the biggest pissy fit on this forum if Bebop is not black or if they're just normal animals before mutation.

I just hope to god I don't have to post a rant in a few months. Please Ciro don't let me down.

The get ready to throw a hissy fit. Honestly it's faster and cheaper for them to have two of the Dragons turn into Bebop and Rocksteady without having to create 2 all-new human models that won't do anything. Fong or Sid having a purple mohawk would be their version of 'random spikes and claws'. Why did Fong have a purple mohawk? Same reason Dogpound has one big-ass arm and a normal arm.

Either way, get set for some kind of radical change that you might not like. Get ready to rant dear Cubed.

[CyberCubed]

The get ready to throw a hissy fit. Honestly it's faster and cheaper for them to have two of the Dragons turn into Bebop and Rocksteady without having to create 2 all-new human models that won't do anything. Fong or Sid having a purple mohawk would be their version of 'random spikes and claws'. Why did Fong have a purple mohawk? Same reason Dogpound has one big-ass arm and a normal arm.

Either way, get set for some kind of radical change that you might not like. Get ready to rant dear Cubed.

According to the person who saw toy sketches Bebop does indeed have purple shades and a Mohawk. And rocksteady was wearing camo pants.

Those don't fit the description of those 3 Purple dragon guys at all. I don't think anything will happen with them.

[Sabacooza]

Where did you get the idea this is a cameo? They're getting toys and are full characters.

While we don't know if they'll work for Shredder or not, Bebop and Rocksteady are being introduced later this season as new characters. So I don't know where you got this "cameo" vibe from. For **** sake! heaven forbid anyone give their opinion around here. In case you didn't read my post, the key word was "probably".

[CyberCubed]

For **** sake! heaven forbid anyone give their opinion around here. In case you didn't read my post, the key word was "probably".

But the point was they wouldn't bother making designs and toys for these two if they were just getting minor cameos.

[Coola Yagami]

But the point was they wouldn't bother making designs and toys for these two if they were just getting minor cameos.

Cameo in season 2.... full-on appearances in season 3.... What's wrong with your thinking process?

[Redeemer]

^^^^^ Both of you Time Out Now!!!!^^^^^^

lmao but seriously it appears that Bebop and Rocksteady are becoming a main staple in most TMNT universes.

[NinjaMan]

Shredder's army is getting stronger.

[blindturtle02]

So do we know if they're making cameos in s2 with mutations in s3 or is this all speculation at this point in time? Personally, I'd love to see them as humans for 1 or 2 eps in s2, plus an episode featuring their mutations. But I don't mind waiting for mutations in s3 or possibly the last time they're featured in s2 similar to the way Mutagen Man was introduced in s1.

Like Cubed, I'd like seeing a bit of their human forms first if Nick has chosen to go the human route. Do we even know if they're going to be humans or animals prior to their mutations? You guys just got me excited with the talk of them appearing as humans, is all. Sounded very sure to me, so I got my hopes up a bit. It would be interesting if they're recruited in the Purple Dragons as humans though. That, I'd love to see. But that's just how I imagine things to go. I'm prepared to be flexable, however.

If Nick decides to mutate R and B from ordinary animals similar to Slash's mutation, I wouldn't be torn up about it. Seriously doubt they'd be savage and speechless. Nick knows that there are 80's OT fans, and I'm thinking they're going to treat these characters well regardless of the way they're mutated. Consider how well this new incarnation of Slash turned out. Looks like this show is being written by fans for fans, so we've probably got nothing to worry about.

[Basaka]

I don't mind if they change the origins of characters they bring from the OT or any other medium for that matter. If it's the same stuff we've seen over and over again then what's the point? I am almost done with the first season and I am thoroughly enjoying this show. I'm 35 and have seen most of the things I loved growing up brought back in several ways. Some I liked, some I hated, but this show is top notch so far. I actually can't wait to watch each new episode.

Which ever way they choose to handle Bebop and Rocksteady I think will be done well and keep old and new fans satisfied. It has to be a hell of a thing to balance a show to appeal to fickle kids and much more opinionated (and vocal) adults though.

[Powder]

While I like the idea of some new rad B&R toys, I can't say I'm excited for them to be a part of the Nick series. I worry they're going to water it down. The show has done a lot of separate itself from other versions and be unique, to much success. It's pretty clear that Ciro is only bringing these guys in because of "fan" demand, but honestly, the only people who are screaming for their return are the ones who don't actively watch the series. It's the ones who see a Facebook update with a screen cap from the new show and comment something like "this show sucks y doesnt it have beebop and roscktseady lik in the old show that one was so much better". The vocal minority. The C word.

[raph27]

The C word....I think it's CyberCubed.
:tlol::tlol::tlol::tlol:

[Coola Yagami]

While I like the idea of some new rad B&R toys, I can't say I'm excited for them to be a part of the Nick series. I worry they're going to water it down. The show has done a lot of separate itself from other versions and be unique, to much success. It's pretty clear that Ciro is only bringing these guys in because of "fan" demand, but honestly, the only people who are screaming for their return are the ones who don't actively watch the series. It's the ones who see a Facebook update with a screen cap from the new show and comment something like "this show sucks y doesnt it have beebop and roscktseady lik in the old show that one was so much better". The vocal minority. The C word.

I agree, and of course, those same people that actually see a screen cap with Bebop and Rocksteady will either complain that they're so different they're 'ruining their childhood' or they'll like the new designs and won't watch the show anyways.

[CyberCubed]

I wouldn't have cared if they never used Bebop and Rocksteady, but since they are, they better do it right. No monster designs, no feral beasts, they should he the same human punks we remember them as, etc.

I'd rather not see them at all if they're going to he unrecognizable. The only character design revamp that really worked was Rat King's, but I don't want any other character changed as much as him.

[Metalwolf]

I agree, and of course, those same people that actually see a screen cap with Bebop and Rocksteady will either complain that they're so different they're 'ruining their childhood' or they'll like the new designs and won't watch the show anyways.Also, if they do add them, what will their main thing be? Will they be once-in-a-while bad guys like Spiderbytes and Snakeweed? Or will they be intended to replace the Shredder's main henchmen? That would tick me off if they were made the main henchmen, because it would mean that Ciro and company are listening too much to fans who want it to not have anything new, but need to have everything be exactly like the OT.

[Coola Yagami]

I wouldn't have cared if they never used Bebop and Rocksteady, but since they are, they better do it right. No monster designs, no feral beasts, they should he the same human punks we remember them as, etc.

I'd rather not see them at all if they're going to he unrecognizable. The only character design revamp that really worked was Rat King's, but I don't want any other character changed as much as him.

Of course that's your opinion. The Rat King has always looked the same, more or less. OT version was basically a more kid-friendly version of the Mirage comics, even though the toy looked creepier, and while the Bishop Clone was quite different, it was still the general bandaged-up guy design. There's probably fans out there complaining that the Rat King isn't the Scarecrow and shouldn't be some scientist. Wait and see how the show handles it. MAYBE the way they changed B&R works. If ANYONE can possibly grab Fong and Sid and turn them into such, or make them mutate animals and turn them into such, AND MAKE IT WORK, Ciro will.

[Powder]

I agree, and of course, those same people that actually see a screen cap with Bebop and Rocksteady will either complain that they're so different they're 'ruining their childhood' or they'll like the new designs and won't watch the show anyways.

Preeeecisely. & then, ultimately, they're there for nobody.

That's not to say they'll be done poorly or that kids won't like them, I'm sure they'll be fine, Ciro's great, but still... We have enough OT revival in the IDW comics already.

[CyberCubed]

Thankfully judging by the toy designs they haven't changed much at all from their iconic look. Exception Rocksteady isn't wearing a shirt anymore, but no big deal.

I just hope to god they were humans and not African animals, and that they are the same characters they've always been.

[Coola Yagami]

Thankfully judging by the toy designs they haven't changed much at all from their iconic look. Exception Rocksteady isn't wearing a shirt anymore, but no big deal.

I just hope to god they were humans and not African animals, and that they are the same characters they've always been.

Like I said, get ready to throw a hissy fit and rant a lot. A. LOT.

[Coola Yagami]

Also, if they do add them, what will their main thing be? Will they be once-in-a-while bad guys like Spiderbytes and Snakeweed? Or will they be intended to replace the Shredder's main henchmen? That would tick me off if they were made the main henchmen, because it would mean that Ciro and company are listening too much to fans who want it to not have anything new, but need to have everything be exactly like the OT.

That's the thing, I really don't know. With Shredder bringing in Tiger Claw, it just seems redundant to have two more mutant henchmen. Obviously if Shredder really was smart, he'd have Tigerclaw, Rahzar, Fishface, Bebop AND Rocksteady as his steady henchmen against the Turtles, making them an unstoppable team..... but, for whatever reason Shredder always like to have his top henchmen outnumbered. I mean, as tough as Hun was in 2K3, imagine how much tougher he woulda been if he had three other tough guys as partners.

[oldmanwinters]

That's the thing, I really don't know. With Shredder bringing in Tiger Claw, it just seems redundant to have two more mutant henchmen. Obviously if Shredder really was smart, he'd have Tigerclaw, Rahzar, Fishface, Bebop AND Rocksteady as his steady henchmen against the Turtles, making them an unstoppable team..... but, for whatever reason Shredder always like to have his top henchmen outnumbered. I mean, as tough as Hun was in 2K3, imagine how much tougher he woulda been if he had three other tough guys as partners.

I wouldn't mind a rotation of mutant henchmen. There's no reason Shredder has to limit himself to only two. Mum-Ra, Cobra Commander, and Megatron all had options to deploy against their nemeses.

[Powder]

Exception Rocksteady isn't wearing a shirt anymore, but no big deal.


Wait, isn't there a shirtless purple dragon? Maybe those dudes will be mutated after all.

[CyberCubed]

Wait, isn't there a shirtless purple dragon? Maybe those dudes will be mutated after all.

Rocksteady still wears army/camo pants and Bebop still has purple shades and a red vest. Doesn't match those crap background chararcters.

[Coola Yagami]

Rocksteady still wears army/camo pants and Bebop still has purple shades and a red vest. Doesn't match those crap background chararcters.

Maybe the mutations destroy their clothes and they have to scramble to cover up, and it just so happens there's some camo pants and red vest and so forth on someone's clotheshanger..... And wouldn't turning them into Bebop and Rocksteady turn them into non-crap background characters?

[CyberCubed]

No, because those crap background characters aren't Bebop and Rocksteady. Bebop is black and none of those guys look like Rocksteady.

[Coola Yagami]

No, because those crap background characters aren't Bebop and Rocksteady. Bebop is black and none of those guys look like Rocksteady.

Maybe they don't look like 80's Bebop and Rocksteady... but maybe they look like 2014 Bebop and Rocksteady, in which case they're not black/white. Just wait and see.

[CyberCubed]

I'm sure it won't be them. For one thing only Fon has any actual character and the other two are background fodder. None of them seem like a close pair like Bebop/Rocksteady do.

I'm sure we'll see them introduced as new characters. My guess is we'll see them join the Purple Dragons as new recruits...we'll see them like that for about 3 episodes....and then Xever/Fishface recommends them to become mutants for Shredder.

They'll probably want to become mutants too like in IDW.

[Coola Yagami]

I'm sure it won't be them. For one thing only Fon has any actual character and the other two are background fodder. None of them seem like a close pair like Bebop/Rocksteady do.

I'm sure we'll see them introduced as new characters. My guess is we'll see them join the Purple Dragons as new recruits...we'll see them like that for about 3 episodes....and then Xever/Fishface recommends them to become mutants for Shredder.

They'll probably want to become mutants too like in IDW.

Doubtful with only 19 eps to go and so many new characters to introduce. I mean out of all the eps we got so far before the break there were only 2 dedicated to the Foot/Purple Dragons. I wouldn't be surprised if they already appear mutated, or they're just in a few seconds before they get mutated. Doesn't really look like there's time to give those 2 any human episodes. Not with all the stuff they got set up.

[CyberCubed]

Doubtful with only 19 eps to go and so many new characters to introduce. I mean out of all the eps we got so far before the break there were only 2 dedicated to the Foot/Purple Dragons. I wouldn't be surprised if they already appear mutated, or they're just in a few seconds before they get mutated. Doesn't really look like there's time to give those 2 any human episodes. Not with all the stuff they got set up.

19 episodes is a lot of episodes. Even if every character we know gets an episode, there's still tons of episodes left. I don't think you realize how much can be done in that span.

This season already introduced so many new characters in only 6 episodes (Casey Jones, Mutagen Man, Slash, Squirelnoids, Kirby-bat, Robot Foot)....and that was only in 6 episodes!

19 episodes is a lot of time. You're acting like half this season is over when we have the bulk of it to go. Even all the character returns we know about (Rat King, etc.) just take up one episode.

[Powder]

Chrome Dome is a sorta new character too. There's plenty of room.

[Coola Yagami]

19 episodes is a lot of episodes. Even if every character we know gets an episode, there's still tons of episodes left. I don't think you realize how much can be done in that span.

This season already introduced so many new characters in only 6 episodes (Casey Jones, Mutagen Man, Slash, Squirelnoids, Kirby-bat, Robot Foot)....and that was only in 6 episodes!

19 episodes is a lot of time. You're acting like half this season is over when we have the bulk of it to go. Even all the character returns we know about (Rat King, etc.) just take up one episode.

Well, we have Spiderbytes, Slash returning, Casey's debut, Tigerclaw which I doubt will be one episode, Rat King, that nightmare mushroom episode, the Larping episode with Raph turned into a turkey head, Cockroach Terminator, Newtralizer, and more stuff with the Foot and the Kraang. We'll just have to see.

[shredder orokusaki]

Right now only at toy fairs

But i searched the web and didnt find any screenshot of them. Only the 87 and current idw i found. Nothing about the nick bebop and rocksteady.

[LivingMutagen]

But I searched the web and didn't find any screenshot of them. Only the 87 and current IDW I found. Nothing about the Nick Bebop and Rocksteady.

Because London Toy Fair doesn't allow pics. Only descriptions of things. So that's why. Not hard to understand now, is it?

And season 3 information won't be revealed at a fair, even season 3 characters.

[shredder orokusaki]

Right now only at toy fairs

Toy fair dont allow screenshots? But why? That stupid. Screenshots will only results in more popularity of and the toys because people will know what they cane expect from them.

[rickwj324]

Toy fair dont allow screenshots? But why? That stupid. Screenshots will only results in more popularity of and the toys because people will know what they cane expect from them.

I'm sure they (like most companies) would prefer to control how/when their product is revealed.

[Leofan26]

It will feel so weird to see these guy's again, in the 80s version they added a lot of humor. I don't know how they'll fit in with the Karai plot and all, wonder if they'll change them around a bit in this series? I felt it was best they kept them out of the 2003 series, that one was way too serious for them.

[CyberCubed]

The whole Nick show is based around humor. They'll fit in fine.

[Metalwolf]

The whole Nick show is based around humor. They'll fit in fine.Humor that's there for a few minutes until it suddenly turns dark.

[CyberCubed]

Humor that's there for a few minutes until it suddenly turns dark.

They'll be in lighter-themed episodes then. Rahzar and Fishface aren't really funny, but I can see Shredder alternating between them and Bebop/Rocksteady depending on the mood of the episode.

This is assuming Bebop/Rocksteady even work for Shredder in this version, but I get the feeling they will. If they're bothering to bring them in this show in the first place everyone is going to say, "Why aren't they working for their boss, Shredder?"

[Metalwolf]

They'll be in lighter-themed episodes then. Rahzar and Fishface aren't really funny, but I can see Shredder alternating between them and Bebop/Rocksteady depending on the mood of the episode.

This is assuming Bebop/Rocksteady even work for Shredder in this version, but I get the feeling they will. If they're bothering to bring them in this show in the first place everyone is going to say, "Why aren't they working for their boss, Shredder?"If Shredder keeps deciding to keep using his old henchmen (Xever and Bradford.) He was getting mad that they kept failing, and threatening to replace them both. I honestly don't see him keeping them around, although that is what I'm assuming Tigerclaw is coming in for.

I'm also guessing that Rahzar might even be dead from electrocution and Xever gets demutated a little later, which could be why B&R now get brought in. I don't know if that will happen, but who knows really.

[TurtleTitan97]

I'm also guessing that Rahzar might even be dead from electrocution and Xever gets demutated a little later, which could be why B&R now get brought in. I don't know if that will happen, but who knows really.

Rahzar is far from dead. He, along with Xever, were both seen groaning in pain when we last saw them, so he's still alive.

[MisfitKraang]

I'm happy to see Bebop & Rocksteady will be in the series regardless of how they turn out, they do not have to be the exact samething as the original, that was a different time and a different version,it will be fun to see another take on them:)

[Metalwolf]

Rahzar is far from dead. He, along with Xever, were both seen groaning in pain when we last saw them, so he's still alive.Well, I do have a sense that both were still alive, although I do wonder why they didn't show up after getting fried. Unless Karai just left both there, like I had guessed much earlier.

Although I am surprised that you said that they were groaning. They didn't look like they made any noise, only Baxter did, and they looked pretty immobile from the electrocution. It's why I even started to wonder if Razzy was dead, since I know Xever will show again from his voice actor.

[Sabacooza]

Well, I do have a sense that both were still alive, although I do wonder why they didn't show up after getting fried. Unless Karai just left both there, like I had guessed much earlier.

Although I am surprised that you said that they were groaning. They didn't look like they made any noise, only Baxter did, and they looked pretty immobile from the electrocution. It's why I even started to wonder if Razzy was dead, since I know Xever will show again from his voice actor. I doubt they had Dogpound mutate into Rahzar just to kill him off right away. Let's hope not anyway. That would be a waste.

[blindturtle02]

We'll certainly be seeing ol Rahzar again. Count on it. I'd bet a pizza on that. That's all your getting cause I'm low on fonds anyway! Hope we get to see Bradford interacting with R and B a bit. Loved what oldmanwinters said about Shredder having more than 2 henchmutants. Why not?