How would you deal with character redundancy in TMNT?

[CyberCubed]

Throughout all the TMNT series and comics there are a lot of characters that overlap with each other and feel redundant. How would you deal with this? For example:

- Dogpound and Rahzar are both based on dogs/wolf's. Nick did the smart thing by making Dogpound into Rahzar, rather than introducing Rahzar on top of having Dogpound.

- The Evil Turtlebot from 4kids is just Metalhead to me. In the actual episode they never say the name of the robot turtle, only the toy/videogame does. So to me Evil Turtlebot is the same character as Metalhead.

- Lotus Blossom is OT Karai.

- Bloodsucker and Wyrm are the same character.

- Old Hob from IDW will become Verminator X from Archie. Just you wait.

- Cockroach Terminator and Scumbug are the same character to me.

- Tiger Claw from Nick Season 2 is just Katamundo from Archie.

- Scratch and Hallowcat are the same character.



Instead of having so many similar characters they should all be merged into the same character.

[Jester]

What about this guy. He predates Metalhead.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/kramwartap/MAP2/TMNT_mecat_manual.png

[CyberCubed]

Yes he is just Metalhead to me too.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

How about steal some villains from the first NES game? Like the chainsaw guy, or the flame guy and such. I wouldn't mind seeing those kind of villains.

[Andrew NDB]

- Dogpound and Rahzar are both based on dogs/wolf's. Nick did the smart thing by making Dogpound into Rahzar, rather than introducing Rahzar on top of having Dogpound.

But... one is a dog. And one is a wolf.

- The Evil Turtlebot from 4kids is just Metalhead to me. In the actual episode they never say the name of the robot turtle, only the toy/videogame does. So to me Evil Turtlebot is the same character as Metalhead.

But didn't they already have Metalhead -- the real, Mirage Metalhead, which predated all of that -- in 4Kids?

- Lotus Blossom is OT Karai.

From what I gather that might be the Fred Wolf equivalent. Though I don't think it was in any way intentional at all.

- Bloodsucker and Wyrm are the same character.

Impossible to change. Rick Veitch owns Bloodsucker and nobody is trying to pay Rick Veitch to use Bloodsucker again... not even IDW. Wyrm is as close as it gets, and I'm surprised they even were bold enough to come that close.

Is Bloodsucker and the whole "River" arc worthwhile for Nick/Viacom to buy out from under Rick Veitch, who isn't even able to do anything further with the story or character independently? I say yes, but then again I have no idea what dollar value is associated with such a venture.

- Old Hob from IDW will become Verminator X from Archie. Just you wait.

Quite possibly.

- Cockroach Terminator and Scumbug are the same character to me.

They're both derived from cockroaches, absolutely... but one is a man mutated into a cockroach hybrid and one is a cockroach mutated into some kind of cockroach with no human elements that's got multiple gestational phases.

Though I would have much preferred to see Scumbug than the very bizarre (nonsensical?) blending/mutation of a cockroach and a camera.

- Tiger Claw from Nick Season 2 is just Katamundo from Archie.

Maybe close. But does Tiger Claw have 4 arms?

- Scratch and Hallowcat are the same character.

Yeah.

[Jester]

And isn't Katmandu (not Katamundo...) NOT a mutant?

[shreddinghead]

But... one is a dog. And one is a wolf.





Aren't both of them dogs? :ohwell:

[Powder]

No. That's been made clear twice now.

[BubblyShell22]

Lotus Blossom is NOT Karai. She is a different character not associated with the Foot. Try again.

[miru]

Quarry's human form was Mona Lisa.

[ticktack]

Alopex & Ninjara?

[CyberCubed]

No. That's been made clear twice now.

To be fair Shredder's pet dog could have been a wolf.

[miru]

Alopex & Ninjara?

Starlee and Kala, MACC and Fugitoid, Lugnut and Hun, Viral and Tempestra, the list goes on.

[Garfield]

It doesn't matter.

especially since most of these characters arent even in the same continuity.

For an example. I don't know who Bloodsucker is (his name makes him sound like he's a Leech, from what I know, Leeches aren't the same as worms.), but whats Wyrm other than a TMNT character that got an action figure but never had an appearance beyond that, besides a second long cartoon clip in a toy commercial.

No need to combine the two and potentially cause the more receivable character to become complicated.

And really, what does combining characters add other than "nostalgia high fives" for the fans that get the reference. Its cool to do sometimes.

Having similar characters in a franchise isn't so redundant when there are multiple continuities. Lotus Blossom wont make Karai redundant because Lotus Blossom hasn't been in anything TMNT related since the early 90's.

[Andrew NDB]

but whats Wyrm other than a TMNT character that got an action figure but never had an appearance beyond that, besides a second long cartoon clip in a toy commercial.

And at least two appearances in the Archie TMNTA comics that I can think of.

[CyberCubed]

Characters do look very different depending on series too. The Archie Scumbug looked nothing like the Fred Wolf Scumbug for example. If they gave him a different name in Archie you wouldn't even make the connection that they were the same character aside from both being mutant roaches.

[snake]

I treat them as separate characters. Karai didn't exist in the OT. Metalhead didn't exist in 2k3.

[Powder]

To be fair Shredder's pet dog could have been a wolf.

Not even close, it's an Akita.

[Tazi]

Old Hob/Verminator X thing is quiet possible, by both being can mutants with a missing eye, same fur colour, both having a habit for smoking cigars, and both using same kinds of weapons... Tho Verminator X was a mutant cat scientist called Manx originally, but then they had this change with Hun, so why not with Verminator X?

[Dirty Blond]

Well, Hamato Yoshi is Splinter (most of the time).

[Andrew NDB]

Well, Hamato Yoshi is Splinter (most of the time).

Are you sure? Because in the central mediums/universes of film, TV, and comics...

Hamato Yoshi is Technically Not Splinter:
1. Mirage Comics
2. Movies
3. NT:TNM
4. 4Kids Show
5. IDW (he is still a normal rat, reincarnation of Hamato Yoshi or not)

Hamato Yoshi is Technically Splinter:
1. Fred Wolf
2. Archie
3. Nickelodeon show

Even if you were to grant the IDW example, it still seems you're wrong.

[Davetello]

It's not so much 'redundancy' as different iterations/universes influencing one another. I see no problem with it - you may argue it's lazy from a creative standpoint but I've liked the majority of all universe's characters - although I could be doing with less mutants in 2k12.

[Shark_Blade]

Are you sure? Because in the central mediums/universes of film, TV, and comics...

Hamato Yoshi is Technically Not Splinter:
1. Mirage Comics
2. Movies
3. NT:TNM
4. 4Kids Show
5. IDW (he is still a normal rat, reincarnation of Hamato Yoshi or not)

Hamato Yoshi is Technically Splinter:
1. Fred Wolf
2. Archie
3. Nickelodeon show

Even if you were to grant the IDW example, it still seems you're wrong.
But his soul is still human (Hamato Yoshi) so he's not totally wrong.

[Jester]

Even if you put IDW Splinter in the WAS Hamato Yoshi column, it's still an even split....

[Dirty Blond]

Further splitting (rat) hairs, doesn't Next Mutation technically take place within the movieverse?

Though I guess one could argue Archie and Fred Wolf are the same universe.

[Davetello]

Further splitting (rat) hairs, doesn't Next Mutation technically take place within the movieverse?

Though I guess one could argue Archie and Fred Wolf are the same universe.

Could also point out that the movies and 4kids show are extensions of/influenced by Mirage in the same way Archie is Fred Wolf.

Like I said above, it's more a borrowing between different universes - whether that be of the same character or different but similar characters.

[Coola Yagami]

They're not really redundant... they're just the same kind of animal, but not the same kind of person and/or personality. It's just after a while... how many more animals are left that aren't already mutants, gods or aliens.

And you're insane if you're throwing in a 4-armed god to a mutant martial artist. By your weird logic, Rahzar is also Dreadmon. Jagwar is Tiger Claw. Scratch is Old Hob.

[Metalwolf]

To be fair Shredder's pet dog could have been a wolf.He was an Akita, a Japanese breed.

To be fair though, dogs are basically domesticated wolves, so when Dogpound/Bradford got mutated again, the second mutation probably reverted the Akita portion back into it's old ancestor, the wolf.

I treat them as separate characters. Karai didn't exist in the OT. Metalhead didn't exist in 2k3. That's what I do too. :D

[Coola Yagami]

I treat them as separate characters. Karai didn't exist in the OT. Metalhead didn't exist in 2k3.

Exactly, cause they ARE separate characters.

[The Big Bad]

They're not really redundant... they're just the same kind of animal, but not the same kind of person and/or personality. It's just after a while... how many more animals are left that aren't already mutants, gods or aliens.

And you're insane if you're throwing in a 4-armed god to a mutant martial artist. By your weird logic, Rahzar is also Dreadmon. Jagwar is Tiger Claw. Scratch is Old Hob.

And, to take this to the logical extreme, Leonardo is Donatello is Raphael is Michelangelo.

[The Sewer Lord]

- Dogpound and Rahzar are both based on dogs/wolf's. Nick did the smart thing by making Dogpound into Rahzar, rather than introducing Rahzar on top of having Dogpound.

No comment on this one.

- The Evil Turtlebot from 4kids is just Metalhead to me. In the actual episode they never say the name of the robot turtle, only the toy/videogame does. So to me Evil Turtlebot is the same character as Metalhead.

There is no simillarity between them other than both of them being robot turtles.

- Lotus Blossom is OT Karai.

Yeah, in Nick. Not in any ther version.

- Bloodsucker and Wyrm are the same character.

How come? 'Sucker is a mutant leach and Wyrm was trash. Literally.

- Old Hob from IDW will become Verminator X from Archie. Just you wait.

That's OK. But until he gets the name, Hob isn't Verminator X (who was called Manx and was a scientist obsessed with becoming immortal, by the way).

- Cockroach Terminator and Scumbug are the same character to me.

Note the "to me". He's the same character to you. Not to me or someone else.

- Tiger Claw from Nick Season 2 is just Katamundo from Archie.

Except Tiger Claw wasn't a four-armed god with reality-warping powers. It's Katmandu, by the way.

- Scratch and Hallowcat are the same character.

This is true. Scratch was just the name of the toy - the character was truly called Hallocat. So, yeah.

And, to take this to the logical extreme, Leonardo is Donatello is Raphael is Michelangelo.

:lol::lol::lol:

[pannoni1]

Characther redundancy is the simple act of recycling characters by just changing their name along with some minor design differences, such as the weapons used, body layout, and origin. They do make great crossover jokes though! You even see this in Power Rangers, Pro Wrestling (ever heard of the Seven Year Rule?)

[CyberCubed]

How come? 'Sucker is a mutant leach and Wyrm was trash. Literally.

What? Wyrm was a mutant leech like Bloodsucker.

You're thinking of Muckman and Joe Eyeball who were mutated garbagemen from trash.

[Tazi]

I think he ment "trash" as "sucks". :P

And he was a worm not a leech.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I have to disagree on some of those. Namely, Dogpound/Rahzar, Lotus/Karai, and CT/Scumbug. Obviously, there are some characters who would be redundant IF THEY WERE IN THE SAME CONTINUITY. But most of them aren't!
The only REALLY redundant characters I can think of are Slash and Tokka, who BOTH appeared in the OT. It never made much sense to me to have TWO "evil" turtles in the same universe.

I liked the double mutation as a way to introduce Rahzar, but now that they've done that, who would be Tokka? Slash? Because now it would be redundant if they had both in Nick- and honestly, what's Rahzar without Tokka? Or are we going to double-mutate one of the TMNT a la Mirage/4Kids and turn him "evil" to just have Tokka running around? Either way would just be ridiculous. Granted, doing a "Gamora-Don(or Raph)" would be cool for an ep or two, or having one of the turtles turn evil (like IDW's Leo) but to double-dip mutant turtle characters just to have Tokka? That's stretching it.

[Coola Yagami]

I have to disagree on some of those. Namely, Dogpound/Rahzar, Lotus/Karai, and CT/Scumbug. Obviously, there are some characters who would be redundant IF THEY WERE IN THE SAME CONTINUITY. But most of them aren't!
The only REALLY redundant characters I can think of are Slash and Tokka, who BOTH appeared in the OT. It never made much sense to me to have TWO "evil" turtles in the same universe.

I liked the double mutation as a way to introduce Rahzar, but now that they've done that, who would be Tokka? Slash? Because now it would be redundant if they had both in Nick- and honestly, what's Rahzar without Tokka? Or are we going to double-mutate one of the TMNT a la Mirage/4Kids and turn him "evil" to just have Tokka running around? Either way would just be ridiculous. Granted, doing a "Gamora-Don(or Raph)" would be cool for an ep or two, or having one of the turtles turn evil (like IDW's Leo) but to double-dip mutant turtle characters just to have Tokka? That's stretching it.

I kinda like Raph's line upon seeing Tokka in the OT 'ANOTHER mutant turtle? I'm starting to feel... I dunno... un-unique'.

Slash is so huge in this version he's basically Tokka too. And I doubt Bradford needs him. This isn't like the movie where both animals were mutated at the same time like Bebop and Rocksteady. 'Rahzar' has been in the show since the 4th episode... so he doesn't now need a 'Tokka' all of a sudden, especially since he already has Xever.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yeah, but it goes back to fan expectations- if you have Rahzar, then by extension, you have to include Tokka, too- they are a duo just as R&B are. It's like splitting up Rocksteady and Bebop for no reason. Fans think of them as two halves of a whole, so why do it? Same thing with T&R. They go together, and always have.

[Coola Yagami]

Yeah, but it goes back to fan expectations- if you have Rahzar, then by extension, you have to include Tokka, too- they are a duo just as R&B are. It's like splitting up Rocksteady and Bebop for no reason. Fans think of them as two halves of a whole, so why do it? Same thing with T&R. They go together, and always have.

True, but it doesn't look like they're doing it like that this time. Otherwise they would have introduced them at the same time.

My only question is, if they do pair off Bradford and Slash (cause really, Slash already fills that role), where does that leave Xever?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Uh.... Armaddon?(sp?) Seriously, though, those two don't really strike me as a true "pairing" of henchmen like the others. They don't seem to "fit" in the same way. It's kind of like taking Bing and Bob and replacing one of them with someone else. (For those who don't know whom I'm referring to- I'm a fan of the old Bing Crosby/Bob Hope "Road To" movies.) It's just not the same....

[Coola Yagami]

Uh.... Armaddon?(sp?) Seriously, though, those two don't really strike me as a true "pairing" of henchmen like the others. They don't seem to "fit" in the same way. It's kind of like taking Bing and Bob and replacing one of them with someone else. (For those who don't know whom I'm referring to- I'm a fan of the old Bing Crosby/Bob Hope "Road To" movies.) It's just not the same....

Even if Fishface gets mutated a second time, the duo of Rahzar and Armaggon would seem too weird. He's super obscure and almost noone would know who he is. Hell when he was in Tournament Fighters noone knew who he is. Anyone outside this forum that happens to remember him will think he 'came from that SNES game' without knowing he was in a comic book series published by Archie of all things.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

That was kind of my point, though. He's not really part of any duo we've seen, and just doesn't feel "right" as part of a duo with Dogpound/Rahzar. I was just saying that they could turn Xever into Armaggon and he STILL wouldn't make a "duo" with Rahzar. The pairing just doesn't make any sense within the TMNT universes when Rahzar has always been paired with Tokka. Sooner or later, they almost HAVE to either bring in Tokka, or use Slash to fill his role. And with his connection to the turtles, he and Rahzar would make a really nasty team against them. Between them, they know many of the turtles' secrets. And I could certainly see Slash turning to Shredder's side in retaliation for Raph rejecting him.

[The Sewer Lord]

What? Wyrm was a mutant leech like Bloodsucker.

You're thinking of Muckman and Joe Eyeball who were mutated garbagemen from trash.

Wasn't Wyrm a garbageman who fell into Shredder's trash?

And he was a worm not a leech.

OK, now I'm confused.

[Coola Yagami]

Wasn't Wyrm a garbageman who fell into Shredder's trash?



No, Muckman was the garbageman. Wym was a mutant leech, just like Bloodsucker was. Cept Bloodsucker was played a lot more serious and was a lot creepier, while Wyrm was all cartoony-looking and such.

[CyberCubed]

Wyrm was also only in Archie. Shredder mutated Scumbug.

[Coola Yagami]

Wyrm was also only in Archie. Shredder mutated Scumbug.

Coulda sworn Scumbug accidentaly mutated himself...

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Does it really matter? A cockroach is a cockroach, IMHO. Never liked Scumbug anyway- what is it with Shredder(and Krang) turning people into mutant bugs anyway? There was even a mantis mutant that resulted from one of their "experiments". (When Shredder briefly discusses the mutagen experiments with Krang in one of the episode of season 2, IIRC. It was a quick screenshot and little more.)

[Coola Yagami]

The diff is Scumbug was an exterminator hired by Shredder to kill some bugs when he accidentaly tripped and fell into mutagen after a roach bit him.

I still find him different since Scumbug used to be a human and is also an exterminator, instead of just some random roach. Kinda like how Bebop and Rocksteady get their personality from being thugs rather than just random mutated animals.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I wasn't referring to their personalities (if the Cockroach Terminator even HAS one) so much as the animal in question. It really doesn't matter HOW they mutate, so much as that they ended up as the same type of animal. And there has never been another rhino or warthog mutant, so they don't really figure into the equation. But we've had two foxes, two (or three?) cats, two cockroaches, THREE turtles (counting Venus), two worms (because leeches are technically a part of the annelid family- the same family that earthworms belong to) and two female ninjas(as "redundant" characters, not as mutants).

[The Sewer Lord]

No, Muckman was the garbageman. Wym was a mutant leech, just like Bloodsucker was. Cept Bloodsucker was played a lot more serious and was a lot creepier, while Wyrm was all cartoony-looking and such.

Oh yeah, I do remember now! I checked the comic book. While Wyrm did fell into some trash, he still got mutated into a worm. My bad. :D

Wyrm was also only in Archie.

Yeah, I do remember him being from Archie. His origin was kinda blurry, but I do remember him fighting Scumbug in the sewers.

[Coola Yagami]

Oh yeah, I do remember now! I checked the comic book. While Wyrm did fell into some trash, he still got mutated into a worm. My bad. :D



Yeah, I do remember him being from Archie. His origin was kinda blurry, but I do remember him fighting Scumbug in the sewers.

Oh no dude. Wyrm was a leech swimming in Mutagen infected water. He was never human.

[The Sewer Lord]

Oh no dude. Wyrm was a leech swimming in Mutagen infected water. He was never human.

Oh yeah! I remember now! Although he was some different type of a worm other than a leech. A planarian or something like that...?

[Powder]

A flatworm.