Turtles Forever: a direct insult to the old 1987 cartoon?

[1987]

"hey lets go to the lair and get our anti-technodrome gear"

ok so i just recently rewatched the "turtles forever" movie and i gotta say, whoever made it must have really hated the old 1987 toon with a passion. the way they are portrayed as complete bumbling idiots, and the stupid made up 80s toon song they play when they come out. i think they really took it too far the way they were portrayed, sure the old toon had its silly moments, but "turtles forever" makes it seem like they are acting like clowns 24/7 which is not the case, the real old toon turtles knew to be serious when it was time. this was pretty much a big slap in the face to the old toon. and also their voices were ridiculous. did Peter Laird write the script? cause i heard that he hated the old toon with a passion.

in any event, do you think that they exaggerated and went overboard in the portrayal of the old toon turtles being stupid silly and incompetent 24/7?

[TMNT_Guy]

Yeah, I think they went to far with it, I think this old post of mine responding to Mikey's "Dorks" comment in the Nick series explains why I feel that way:
Eh, it all comes down to respect.

Were the old turtles goofy and ridiculous? Yeah, that was part of their charm, so why act so negative about it?

When the Scooby-Doo gang met their past digital selves in Scooby-Doo and the Cyber Chase, they didn't call their past selves "dorks". The closest thing that happens is Daphne playfully tells her past self they need to go clothes shopping later, in response to seeing her old, classic, and dated outfit.

So I can understand if Mikey's line upsets people. To me, it's just Michelangelo being Michelangelo, saying things without thinking things all the way through. In other words, just being silly.

[Candy Kappa]

Anyone who doesn't give TF's portrayal of the FW turtles a second thought would surely think so.

But, despite the goofiness of the FW turtles, they still get stuff done. I see them as a condensed version of the FW turtles that have almost had 200 episodes of a show. And, since the 4Kids turtles are the straight guys group, they have to amp up the FW antics to make them look more distinct and different. Or else we would have had double of the same character, as it wasn't much time for character development for the FW or even the Prime turtles.

[Powder]

This thread again? :trolleye:

[Shark_Blade]

Yes it's pretty much disrespectful.

Kinda glad PL let go of the franchise.

[Galactus]

"hey lets go to the lair and get our anti-technodrome gear"

ok so i just recently rewatched the "turtles forever" movie and i gotta say, whoever made it must have really hated the old 1987 toon with a passion.

No it wasn't. It was made by people who watched a hell of a lot of the old show and went to great lengths to include as much as they could from it. That doesn't sound at all like they hated it.

in any event, do you think that they exaggerated and went overboard in the portrayal of the old toon turtles being stupid silly and incompetent 24/7?

Somewhat but less than the Mirage turtles which were exaggerated as ultra dark bloodthirsty thugs which no one had a problem with.

That being said a lot of the lines of the 80s turtles were direct or paraphrased from the old show. A lot of the goofy things they did were direct nods to specific instances in the old show. People may not remember or refuse to acknowledge this stuff happened but it did. I honestly feel Fred Wolf fans need to get a sense of perspective and a sense of humor which is ironic considering that's what the 80s show was about.

Yes it's pretty much disrespectful.

Kinda glad PL let go of the franchise.

Why? It's not like he wrote or had much more to do with the special than signing off on it. The idea that he mandated that that the Fred Wolf turtles have to be humiliated is stupid. In fact looking at his production notes what few suggestions he had was them to take out a scene were he said that the 80s turtles weren't that ineffectual so if anything their porytayal would have been worse.

The Fred Wolf turtles "goofy" ways saved the day more than once in the special and Bebop and Rocksteady saved the multiverse. It's this kind of ultra defensive at little more than lighthearted jabs I'll never understand.

[TigerClaw]

I don't think it was an insult, The only knock against it was the fact they did not used the original voice actors for the 80s Turtles. That's because 4Kids does not hire union voice actors for there cartoons.

[Bry]

The movie made a point of showing that the '87 Turtles and the sillier aspects of their world were still effective - the multiverse-threatening technology stemmed from the Technodrome, the '87 Turtles saved the day more than once, and their Donatello created the technology that allowed them to travel to other worlds. AND they were perfectly effective in battle compared to their "edgier" counterparts. Their methods were silly, but they worked.

I think a lot of people get hung up on the good-natured ribbing at that show and miss the point of the movie: the '87 Turtles were initially presented as the butt of the joke, but in the end, though different, were proven to be just as "good" as every other version.

[CyberCubed]

Some of you need to grow up.

I am a huge fan of the original cartoon and I thought the Turtles were portrayed fine. The only bad scene was the crying scene and the noogies.

[ticktack]

Good nods aand... mean-spirited¡!¡

[CowabungaMikey]

When I first saw Turtles Forever, I didn't know the 1987 show. I loved it immediatly. But when I started to watch the OT, my hate began to grow. It was just so disrespectful. The concept, animation and voices (except for the 80s Turtles) are alright, but I just don't like most of it. One part 2003 Donatello was making fun of 80s April's yellow jumpsuit, but a few minutes later the 2003 April came on the screen in a yellow jumpsuit. Sigh. Decent movie, I keep thinking those 80s Turtles are another dimension than the original OT Turtles.

[Jester]

Over the top caricature - Yes.
Direct insult - Not so much.

[CyberCubed]

This thread needs to be locked. Poking fun at how stupid the Turtle Blimp is, is not an insult.

Mikey struggling to life a manhole cover is realistic. In the OT those manhole covers were like paper thin that a human or child could lift then. In a more realistic world those sewer covers are heavy;

[plastroncafe]

Like it or not, that's how people remember the 80s toon.

...

Man, I feel all dirty now, using the same line people use against the Purists.

[cammy85]

My guess has always been that ever since "Divide and Conquer", time went on for the Turtles and when they wound up in the 2k3 dimension, it was through space and not time. The portal stick was able to send them back in time to Turtle Prime 1984. I imagine all other iterations of the portals could too, it's just... why bother? Donatello probably had the same idea as Dr. Brown from Back to the Future: changing the past could have negative impacts on the present/future.

[ticktack]

Mikey struggling to life a manhole cover is realistic. In the OT those manhole covers were like paper thin that a human or child could lift then. In a more realistic world those sewer covers are heavy;
A justification from your made up headcanon right away. *swinging head*
It was never mentioned that those covers were heavy in 4kids toon universe before either.

[1987]

well ot leo was definitely not a complete moron as he was depicted in turtles forever. unless they were solely basing him on the episode "leonardo lightens up" then yea. but in general, this movie just seemed like an hour and a half ot bashing. come on, giant bananas running around the street? they were definitely trying to make the ot look bad. but i gotta admit, i do wish the ot had stuck to the tone of the 1987 five-part miniseries. the later seasons did get a bit silly, but nowhere near as bad as turtles forever depicts it.

[BabyTurtles]

I didn't see it that way.....I saw turtles forever before I saw the 80's show

when I went back and watched the show...they still seemed pretty goofy....

[turtlefanforever]

I get you make them silly, but they made them a bit too silly. It's all about contrast but there was a little too much of it. In the end they come together and fight but they still have to talk them down and say how serious it is, I felt that was unneeded. All in all good movie, but they did make them a bit too silly, I hear you on that one.

[alliance]

Hmmmm..should i or shouldnt i...

[sdp]

It wasn't a poking fun of it but downright mean spirited, it makes you not enjoy it. They were a parody.

[CowabungaMikey]

Hmmmm..should i or shouldnt i...

Don't, alliance. Believe me.

[turtlefanforever]

Hmmmm..should i or shouldnt i...

If you have to ask you probably shouldn't

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

Hmmmm..should i or shouldnt i...

I wouldn't, if i were you

[SwiftNinjaFox]

I didn't have a problem with it, really.

2k3 turtles thought OT turtles were dorks. Mirage turtles thought 2K3 turtles were dorks. Hell, they even poked fun at Mirage turtles a little bit with Leo basically monologue describing what they were doing as they did it and it NOT being a voice over....they outright asked why he was describing everything.

I didn't think it was insulting nor mean spirited, but it did poke fun at the cheesiness or "flaws" with the original cartoon. Saving April every week? Shredder being incompetent? Yep, and yep.

I liked how 2k3 Mikey loved the original cartoon group, though. And I thought it was funny how Raph tried to deflect the Mirage turtles' judgement by pointing out the original toons belts......and Mirage Mikey comments that he dug the belts at the end. :lol:

[BubblyShell22]

This thread needs to be locked. Poking fun at how stupid the Turtle Blimp is, is not an insult.

Mikey struggling to life a manhole cover is realistic. In the OT those manhole covers were like paper thin that a human or child could lift then. In a more realistic world those sewer covers are heavy;

Will you stop it with wanting to lock every thread just because it's not positive or matches your opinion? Gah, it's getting annoying!

I don't think it was a direct insult myself, but I do think it was more to differentiate the OT Turtles from the 2K3 Turtles so that they all didn't act the same. I think the only thing that bugged me was the crying because it seemed a little OOC for them to do that, but other than that nitpick, I enjoyed the movie. Once I watch "Wormquake" tonight, I'll have a better comparison to make between that mini crossover and TF.

[TMNT_Guy]

But, despite the goofiness of the FW turtles, they still get stuff done. I see them as a condensed version of the FW turtles that have almost had 200 episodes of a show. And, since the 4Kids turtles are the straight guys group, they have to amp up the FW antics to make them look more distinct and different. Or else we would have had double of the same character, as it wasn't much time for character development for the FW or even the Prime turtles.
Somewhat but less than the Mirage turtles which were exaggerated as ultra dark bloodthirsty thugs which no one had a problem with.
I think these are the best explanations; all the Turtles were extremely exaggerated in order the make the 2003 Turtles look "normal". This to me, however, is a sign of bad writing.

Great example is OS Donatello; He made allot of ridiculous contraptions in the old cartoon, but a portable transdimtional portal is too much. I remember Donatello DID make a transdimentional portal in the original series, but it was very big, very heavy, and broke down most of the time. By the end of one episode he gave up even trying to fix it, deciding just to convert it into a television screen.

That being said, a few of the jokes about the OS Turtles work well:

OS Donatello: Now hand me that hammer.

2003 Donatello: This...is a wrench.

OS Donatello: Details!
I thought this was a great joke about the animation mistakes from the original series.

Hun: Mutagen turned me into the last thing I touched! MUTANT! TURTLE! FILTH!

OS Raphael: [Talking to us, the audience] That’s not true! We shower regularly.

{2003 Raphael and Hun freeze. They look around to see who he's talking to.}

Later...

Hun: Forget the Shredder! Your gonna pay for what you've done to me!

OS Raphael: [Talking to us, the audience] Some people just can't handle change.

Hun: [Looks in the direction OS Raphael was talking. Turns back to OS Raphael, picks him up, and shakes him.] Why do you keep doing that? Who are you talking to!? THERES NO ONE THERE!
I think that scene is my favorite from the movie. I laugh every time.

Other jokes about the OS Turtles, like this:
OS Donatello: Hey, don't you owe us one phone call?

OS Michelangelo: Like, I totally know who I"M calling.

All four Turtles: PIZZA DELLIVERY! HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Don't work as well.

[Candy Kappa]

Yeah, the pizza gags fell flat. But I loved the 4th wall jokes and Hun freaking out, and the wrench was pretty funny. And an actual nod to an episode.

[Andrew NDB]

ok so i just recently rewatched the "turtles forever" movie and i gotta say, whoever made it must have really hated the old 1987 toon with a passion. the way they are portrayed as complete bumbling idiots, and the stupid made up 80s toon song they play when they come out.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.129858!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/alg-crying-baby-jpg.jpg

[1987]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.129858!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/alg-crying-baby-jpg.jpg

dude u dont gotta cry about it

[Warboss74]

Actually, that hammer/wrench scene was from one of the OT episodes where Donatello used a wrench as a hammer on one of his devices. I think it was from Leo Lightens Up.


People really overstate the "poor characterization" of the OT turtles.

[kolaida]

Overall, I enjoyed it quite a lot. Yeah, it was kinda goofy but I didn't think it was that disrespectful. As others have said, the pizza gags fell flat-- and maybe that just makes it seem like it was disrespectful. The turtles are known for loving pizza, but it was a little over the top in the movie. But, anyway, I still loved it!

[blindturtle02]

I think the 87 turtles were a little too goofy at times. To paraphrase 2k3 Raph, it was like having 5 2k3 Mikeys sharing the screen at times. Although the 87 turtles did exhibit their own personalities when they weren't going after 2k3 Mikey. Having watched the OT show more frequently in recent years thanks to the DVDs, I just don't recall the 87 boys acting as silly as they were portrayed in Turtles Forever. Not saying I dislike the movie. It's one of my favorites. I just wish the writers could have toned down the humor on the 87 turtles. They seemed to water down 87 Shredder and Krang as well. Did 87 Shredder even fight at all? I would have loved to see him holding his own a bit more. He did get creamed in the old show sometimes but he also got his hands dirty quite a bit. I loved that sceen where he boasted about zapping the 87 turtles with the giggle ray once everyone had gotten back home, then cackled maniacally. With Shredder and Krang, it felt like Revenge of The Fly from OT where they were locked in a closet the entire ep. I did enjoy seeing them again. Krang was very much like his old self. And I suppose 87 Shredder would really be no match for Utrom Shredder. That little guy's just plain vicious. Aside from the 87 portrayals being a bit over the top at times, I loved this movie. Uncut is the best way to see it, however.

[Klunk1234]

I completely agree, the treatment of the original series turtles was horrible. They never behaved like idiots. The scene that made me upset when I watched the Turtles Forever Movie for the first time was when they started crying like little babies. And that design of the 2003 Turtles was based on Fast Forward; they look terrible.

[TMNT_Guy]

The scene that made me upset when I watched the Turtles Forever Movie for the first time was when they started crying like little babies.
Yeah, that along with the scene where the OS Turtles drop their weapons and run away are the two scenes everyone seems to universally dislike.
And that design of the 2003 Turtles was based on Fast Forward; they look terrible.
Not sure what that has to do with insulting the 1987 cartoon, but I agree. Then again, I've never liked the 2003 designs to being with. Before I watched the show, I used to refer to them as Mutant Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

[Pterobat]

No, not at all.

I hate to be cliche, but poking fun at something doesn't mean you just want to tear it down. The term "affectionate parody" exists for a reason, and boy, "Turtles Forever" falls under that.

As mentioned time and time again, the 4Kids crew put a damn lot of effort into getting the FW world to look as right as it could, and even the very idea of an anniversary tribute TMNT film requires more thought, motivation, and energy than just, "let's make fun of that other cartoon". The company and crew simply would not go to all that effort if the only thing they wanted to do was make fun of the OT.

Secondly, while you could nitpick tiny details in "Turtles Forever", that things weren't *exactly* like the old cartoon, that's an inevitable fact of different production crews and several years between productions. I don't hold that inability to be completely interchangeable with the OT against "Turtles Forever". It was about at the accuracy of, say, a really good fanfic, and more than decent.

Thirdly, as I said above, the OT had a lot of flaws that were ripe for being mocked. Calling attention to these faults doesn't constitute "bashing". I think the writers were using the contrasts between the two universes (and the Mirage stuff) as a vehicle for the humour. It would have been a lie to make the two universes the same and where everybody got along.

Not to mention boring.

[Leo656]

"Affectionate Parody" sums it up pretty well. Also "Caricature", as I believe Jester said. It was fine. It was very broad, yes. It was broad on purpose.

It fits perfectly that, since the 2K3 TMNT were the "stars", the guest stars were going to be painted in broad strokes and made to look less effective and competent than the "stars". If the reverse happened, if the OT somehow made it back on the air and they did an episode where the 2K3 TMNT had a cameo, you just know Raphael would be all "Incredible Hulk", Mikey'd be bouncing off the walls, Leo would be super-duper-serious, etc., and OT Mikey or Raph would constantly be saying, "Like, you guys need to totally mellow out, dude!" They wanted to play up the contrast. It's the nature of these kinds of cross-over things. They simply condensed every "flaw" anyone ever listed about the OT into one place to better show how different the two interpretations were. That's all it was, and it was hilarious.

Also... this really IS like the 80th time a thread about this topic has come up. Is it a 6-month cycle or something? I feel we JUST went over all this not long ago.

[Xav]

This pretty much sums it up.
http://gregxb.blogspot.com/2013/02/turtles-forever-was-right.html

[Ninjinister]

Oh Jesus how do people still think this way? It's like nostalgia has microwaved your brains.

[CyberCubed]

This pretty much sums it up.
http://gregxb.blogspot.com/2013/02/turtles-forever-was-right.html

Wow, I actually agree with everything in that blog post. He actually lists why I and many others still like the original toon. As repetitive or silly as the show got sometimes, it was just fun because of the wackiness.

People need to accept the original toon universe for what it was, and not dock it for the lack of story arcs, character development, plot twists, etc.

[Pterobat]

Wow, I actually agree with everything in that blog post. He actually lists why I and many others still like the original toon. As repetitive or silly as the show got sometimes, it was just fun because of the wackiness.

People need to accept the original toon universe for what it was, and not dock it for the lack of story arcs, character development, plot twists, etc.

Oh, hey, a friend of mine wrote that after we marathoned some of the TMNT show via AIM with him.

Re: I think it's not that the FW Turtles were less competent, but that TF was a clashing of universes where the "laws" of each were so totally different that each group felt out of their depths when confronted with the others' worlds--look at how baffled the 2k3 Turtles are when they go into the FW dimension.

"Turtles Forever" is just having fun with the contrast between universes.

[Bry]

This pretty much sums it up.
http://gregxb.blogspot.com/2013/02/turtles-forever-was-right.html

Yep. YEP. Nailed it.

Some fans act like the original 1987 miniseries is indicative of the show as a whole, but it's really not. Things got increasingly ridiculous as the show went on. And I don't mean that in a negative way - it's just true, and also a part of its appeal.

Oh, hey, a friend of mine wrote that after we marathoned some of the TMNT show via AIM with him.

Re: I think it's not that the FW Turtles were less competent, but that TF was a clashing of universes where the "laws" of each were so totally different that each group felt out of their depths when confronted with the others' worlds--look at how baffled the 2k3 Turtles are when they go into the FW dimension.

"Turtles Forever" is just having fun with the contrast between universes.

Exactly. A big focus of the movie was the 2003 cast being baffled by the 1987 show's logic and "laws", and yet they proved surprisingly effective, even essential, throughout the story. As much as the '87 cartoon's silliness was the butt of the joke, the 2003 show's comparative seriousness was also proven "wrong" or closed-minded more than once. The contrast goes both ways.

[CyberCubed]

Oh, hey, a friend of mine wrote that after we marathoned some of the TMNT show via AIM with him.

Re: I think it's not that the FW Turtles were less competent, but that TF was a clashing of universes where the "laws" of each were so totally different that each group felt out of their depths when confronted with the others' worlds--look at how baffled the 2k3 Turtles are when they go into the FW dimension.

"Turtles Forever" is just having fun with the contrast between universes.

Very true. My favorite line from the movie is when 2k3 Leo says, "Our Shredder is not like your Shredder. He's menacing!"

And then 2k3 Mikey says, "And competent!"

:lol:

This is where the contrast is. 80's Shredder can be taken down in a fight by the Turtles throwing a pizza pie in his face (and this has happened in the show), while Ch'rell was a tough fight to beat every time.

I love the comparison.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

To me, Ch'rell was stupidly overpowered. It should not have been that hard to squish him. :o

[1987]

This pretty much sums it up.
http://gregxb.blogspot.com/2013/02/turtles-forever-was-right.html

that blog proves nothing and i disagree with it 100%. it just a very stereotypical way of putting it and it even says he didnt watch all the episodes. yes its true, a lot of those things did actually happen in the show, but they were evenly distributed amon the other action and seroious scenes, they didnt happen 30 times in one episode nonstop as "turtles forever" makes it seem. the script was made by haters of the ot. i can go on and on about all the thing "turtles forever" got wrong but there just too many flaws to point out. it is what it is.

[CowabungaMikey]

that blog proves nothing and i disagree with it 100%. it just a very stereotypical way of putting it and it even says he didnt watch all the episodes. yes its true, a lot of those things did actually happen in the show, but they were evenly distributed amon the other action and seroious scenes, they didnt happen 30 times in one episode nonstop as "turtles forever" makes it seem. the script was made by haters of the ot. i can go on and on about all the thing "turtles forever" got wrong but there just too many flaws to point out. it is what it is.

Totally agree with this post. Phelous pointed out my opinion in his Turtles Forever video pretty well.

[Powder]

Pretty hard to take this thread seriously when it's been made by someone obsessed with the OT who hates the Nick series and probably others.

[ticktack]

Pretty hard to take this thread seriously when it's been made by someone obsessed with the OT who hates the Nick series and probably others.

pfft .
What are you talking about? Different people will have different preferences.

[TMNT_Guy]

Totally agree with this post. Phelous pointed out my opinion in his Turtles Forever video pretty well.
I was wondering if anyone was going to mention Phelous's video. I laugh everytime that sad Charlie Brown Christmas music plays.
http://blip.tv/phelous/turtles-forever-5950224

[turtlefanforever]

Pretty hard to take this thread seriously when it's been made by someone obsessed with the OT who hates the Nick series and probably others.

Should we not take you seriously cause you dislike the next mutation and like everything else. He poses a real question if you don't take it seriously then don't post just to say you don't take it seriously. How is that in anyway productive. Spread love, don't spew hate.

[1987]

Pretty hard to take this thread seriously when it's been made by someone obsessed with the OT who hates the Nick series and probably others.

dude i havent even mentioned the nick series in this thread as it wasnt even invented yet when this movie came out so its irrelevent. i actualy do like the 4kids tmnt as a different take on the turtles i was just disgusted how they were constanstly bashing the ot turtles in the movie. but the nick show is in a league of its own. i dont like it because its aimed at a 5-10 year old audience, its just too "nickelodeon" for me. i always saw the tmnt as mirage, not nick. but i guess it was inevitable when the property was sold to nickelodeon.

[Tazi]

I tought that they went a bit for with the TF portrayal, until I rewatched some OT episodes. All the goofiness, the break of the 4th wall thing, saving April again and again, it's all there. They was always was there, and I like it that way.

Besides TF indeed does some self-aware humour, but that goes for 4Kids and Mirage too. Like how they kill Shredder with a trashcan, etc.

[Powder]

Should we not take you seriously cause you dislike the next mutation and like everything else. He poses a real question if you don't take it seriously then don't post just to say you don't take it seriously. How is that in anyway productive. Spread love, don't spew hate.

I love the Next Mutation & I have made that fact very well known. Nice try. & you are the last person on this board who should be giving that advice.

[billbot85]

When I first watched Turtles Forever, I also felt that it was directly insulting the OT. I felt they over-exaggerated a lot of the goofy antics, even if they were pretty much true. Although I do agree that the film was trying to show the significant contrast between the different tmnt universes, and I was glad that the OT turtles still helped save the day.

Perhaps I'm too nostalgic for the OT, despite how ridiculous some of the episodes were (Mr. Ogg, anyone?). Still, I felt Turtles Forever kinda just over-stereo-typed the OT turtles as just bumbling idiots and cowards.

[Gabriel GP]

Everybody says that if you intend to watch the OT, you have to do without taking too serious, just relax and watch. So why when we see TF we just don't do the same? The OT are goofy, if they made them more or less goofy in TF doesn't matter that much.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

I think the only thing that i didn't like was the part, like a lot of people in this thread have said, where the OT Turtles start crying.

That would be out of character for any of the Turtle incarnation.

[Icebot]

I'll admit that in some scenes, the "87 turtles may have done some smart things but I think they went way overboard in making the turtles seem like idiots, especially when 3 of them cried and went into 2k3 Raph's arms like he was their babysitter or something.

[turtlefanforever]

dude i havent even mentioned the nick series in this thread as it wasnt even invented yet when this movie came out so its irrelevent. i actualy do like the 4kids tmnt as a different take on the turtles i was just disgusted how they were constanstly bashing the ot turtles in the movie. but the nick show is in a league of its own. i dont like it because its aimed at a 5-10 year old audience, its just too "nickelodeon" for me. i always saw the tmnt as mirage, not nick. but i guess it was inevitable when the property was sold to nickelodeon.

Only thing to come out of that dudes mouth that isn't hate is if he's talking about a personal accomplishment. Don't stress. Just talk turtles and ignore the hate as best you can. But I'm with you on the treatment of the characters, but I understand it. They definitely could have held back a bit.

[JTH]

I dont like it because its aimed at a 5-10 year old audience, its just too "nickelodeon" for me. i always saw the tmnt as mirage, not nick. but i guess it was inevitable when the property was sold to nickelodeon.
..........

So a fan of the 87' kid show to the max, doesn't like the Nick show cause it's aimed at kids...

Boy, if that the damnedest thing I've ever heard. Is there a punch line to this joke I'm not getting?

[NinjaPug]

dude i havent even mentioned the nick series in this thread as it wasnt even invented yet when this movie came out so its irrelevent. i actualy do like the 4kids tmnt as a different take on the turtles i was just disgusted how they were constanstly bashing the ot turtles in the movie. but the nick show is in a league of its own. i dont like it because its aimed at a 5-10 year old audience, its just too "nickelodeon" for me. i always saw the tmnt as mirage, not nick. but i guess it was inevitable when the property was sold to nickelodeon.

This post is so confusing. You say you "always saw the tmnt as mirage" yet view the "4kids tmnt as a different take on the turtles"

I'm all for people liking/not liking different adaptations of TMNT but it's tough for me to understand liking the OT but hating the Nick version because it's not Mirage.

Your posts sound like you believe the OT was based on Mirage.

[Powder]

Only thing to come out of that dudes mouth that isn't hate is if he's talking about a personal accomplishment. Don't stress. Just talk turtles and ignore the hate as best you can. But I'm with you on the treatment of the characters, but I understand it. They definitely could have held back a bit.

You are suuuuch a try-hard, LOL.

[1987]

Only thing to come out of that dudes mouth that isn't hate is if he's talking about a personal accomplishment. Don't stress. Just talk turtles and ignore the hate as best you can. But I'm with you on the treatment of the characters, but I understand it. They definitely could have held back a bit.

yeah, ive been noticing that quite a bit around here. not just him but a few others as well, get so offended from simple comments they dont agree with. but what can ya do?

..........

So a fan of the 87' kid show to the max, doesn't like the Nick show cause it's aimed at kids...

Boy, if that the damnedest thing I've ever heard. Is there a punch line to this joke I'm not getting?

i am not in the 5-10 year old age group, thats why i dont like the nick show. i tried watching it but i cant stand how mikeys voice sounds is he even a teenage on the show? and when i hear donny talking i think its ot raph and the "pie guy" voicing leo is a joke in itself and borderline appropriate for a childrens show. have u not seen he last american pie film, where he bares it all? i also dont dig all those lame new characters like fishfish and dogface. the ot had way cooler mutants and its the original version of tmnt i was introduced to as a kid so of course i will prefer it over the nick show. if i was a child growing up these days i probably would like the nick show, but overall i dont like the design of the nick turtles (not to mention donnys ridiculous tooth gap), those weird power-puff girls style bodies they have look ridiculous.

This post is so confusing. You say you "always saw the tmnt as mirage" yet view the "4kids tmnt as a different take on the turtles"

I'm all for people liking/not liking different adaptations of TMNT but it's tough for me to understand liking the OT but hating the Nick version because it's not Mirage.

Your posts sound like you believe the OT was based on Mirage.

i meant as in a different take from the ot. and i didnt say the ot is based on mirage, it IS mirage, and so is the 4kids toon but based more on the comics. the nickelodeon show on the other hand is just a cg nicktoon.

[Jester]

i didnt say the ot is based on mirage, it IS mirage
What? That makes absolutely no sense.

[NinjaPug]

I don't think 1987 knows what Mirage is.

[turtlefanforever]

Lets just get back on topic. Not everything has to be a flame war. You wanna discuss elements not related to turtles forever, then make a new thread.

[NinjaPug]

We're responding to posts by the guy that started the topic. Go pretend to be a mod elsewhere.

[1987]

um yes mirage was the production company and it does say mirage studios on the end credits of the ot so yea

sadly mirage sold tmnt to nick :(

[Powder]

http://i60.tinypic.com/2quoi6o.gif

[Jester]

So...it's Mirage...because Mirage owned the Turtles at the time...and now that Mirage no longer owns TMNT everything is crap....

Ok....good to know.

How do you feel about "The Mouse" owning Spider-man or Warner Bros. being the home of Batman?

[NinjaPug]

I don't think 1987 knows what Mirage is.

um yes mirage was the production company and it does say mirage studios on the end credits of the ot so yea

sadly mirage sold tmnt to nick :(

Refer to my previous post

[CyberCubed]

Such utter stupidity going on in this thread. It's so casual.

[Jester]

Such utter stupidity going on in this thread. It's so casual.
G2y8Sx4B2Sk

[Technogeek29]

um yes mirage was the production company and it does say mirage studios on the end credits of the ot so yea

sadly mirage sold tmnt to nick :(

A mind like a steel trap this one?

[JTH]

i am not in the 5-10 year old age group, thats why i dont like the nick show. i tried watching it but i cant stand how mikeys voice sounds is he even a teenage on the show? and when i hear donny talking i think its ot raph and the "pie guy" voicing leo is a joke in itself and borderline appropriate for a childrens show. have u not seen he last american pie film, where he bares it all? i also dont dig all those lame new characters like fishfish and dogface. the ot had way cooler mutants and its the original version of tmnt i was introduced to as a kid so of course i will prefer it over the nick show. if i was a child growing up these days i probably would like the nick show, but overall i dont like the design of the nick turtles (not to mention donnys ridiculous tooth gap), those weird power-puff girls style bodies they have look ridiculous.
I don't mind you having actual reasons on the show itself, I don't agree with them, but so be it.

But as soon as you use the age reason, this is a mute point. Because I'm going to tell you the same reason you loved a show/franchise can't be the same reason you condemn a show/franchise as an adult, especially when the latter show is FAR less kiddy than the former.

You just need to admit that it's because you're older and that the new version has just passed you by, and you like the old version because of nostalgic reasons.

But just bare in mind that they're the shows is centered for the same age group from 87' and 2K12.

So maybe it's not the show that's changed, maybe it's just you...

[Jester]

But as soon as you use the age reason, this is a mute point.

http://www.maniacworld.com/question-is-moot.html

[Konchadunga]

Does it really matter? Whether or not they wanted to insult it, they did.

I have challenged the film's apologists, such as Andrew NDB, to a scavenger hunt. Watch the OT again and find me:
•A time the OT turtles cry under pressure.
•A time every OT turtle consistently grinned and laughed when a serious fight broke out.
•A time every OT Turtle; not just Michelangelo, gets distracted by pizza in the thick of conflict.
•A time when OT Donatello said anything like "science isn't all about facts; it requires guesswork and positive thinking."

Not one of them has been able to do it, because go figure; the people who say TF was accurate are the same ones who hate the OT too much to go and check.

The best they can claim is some meta accuracy; like they distilled the whole show's silliness onto the Turtles, but that's still wrong. It would be like having one of the dark, gritty Batman incarnations of the modern era having a crossover with the Adam West Batman, if the latter was constantly saying phrases that began with "holy" and making puns, yes; that existed in the show but it wasn't Batman who did it!

For the record, though, TF has far, far more problems than misportrayal of the OT. It's illogical, plothole-ridden, many of even the funny jokes are very predictable, it just further cements 4Kidd Shredder as a villain-Sue, and it's simply too short to do the concept real justice. So maybe it wasn't an intentional insult, but it's still an undisciplined mess, so that's not much better. By the time it was made, 4Kids couldn't even get their own Turtles right for three seasons, so go-figure; a movie with more wouldn't work well.

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

um yes mirage was the production company and it does say mirage studios on the end credits of the ot so yea

sadly mirage sold tmnt to nick :(

When people say "Mirage" around here, they're usually talking about the original comics.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/66/Mirage_vol_1_4-2.jpg

The 1987 cartoon was practically nothing like the original comics that it was supposed to be based on. Technically, yes, both are Mirage because Mirage owned the franchise back then... but by that logic, the 2003 cartoon was also Mirage. I think this is just a simple case of people's terminologies not matching up (and I'll admit, I've never referred to the original comics as "Mirage", myself... but mostly because I like emphasizing the word "original" by instead using the term "original comics", since they were the source material).

This pretty much sums it up.
http://gregxb.blogspot.com/2013/02/turtles-forever-was-right.html

Ya, I have to agree. If you go back and watch the old show (not the first five episodes, but the majority of what came after those "mini-series" episodes), the ridiculousness is actually pretty much what was shown in Turtles Forever. It might seem like they were exaggerating, but they weren't really. If anything, it's more that the old cartoon was inconsistent with its goofiness and the characterizations of the characters, as it seemed to vary depending on who was writing which episode. Turtles Forever might be bit... biased in only drawing from episodes where the most ridiculousness was present, but to say that the old cartoon never reached those levels is a fallacy. It just fluctuated, is all.

[Jester]

The 1987 cartoon was practically nothing like the original comics that it was supposed to be based on. Technically, yes, both are Mirage because Mirage owned the franchise back then... but by that logic, the 2003 cartoon was also Mirage. I think this is just a simple case of people's terminologies not matching up (and I'll admit, I've never referred to the original comics as "Mirage", myself... but mostly because I like emphasizing the word "original" by instead using the term "original comics", since they were the source material).
As would Next Mutation....as Mirage still owned the Turtles, even if they allowed Saban to use the characters.

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

As would Next Mutation....as Mirage still owned the Turtles, even if they allowed Saban to use the characters.
Indeed. And Next Mutation was about as far removed from the original comics as you can possibly get.

[Lou 500]

Turtles Forever was a great tribute and funny as hell in a lot of parts; the only bit I thought was off was the moments where the Fred Wolf turtles would piss themselves and cry when faced with serious adversaries, which seemed very uncharacteristic.

[Leofan26]

It's not as bad as what the Nick's version did to them, one quick cameo to make jokes at them.

Guess that's what the new writers think of the 80s show is all.

[The Fifth Turtle]

Poking fun at the 80's OT? Yes
Direct insult? No


They even poke fun at the headbands of the 2k series.

Damn it now I want to watch TF.

[ironman29758]

It's not as bad as what the Nick's version did to them, one quick cameo to make jokes at them.

Guess that's what the new writers think of the 80s show is all.

It was just Mikey poking fun, while Donnie admiring April's jumpsuit and the Turtles, April and Casey looking at shock/confusion at the FW Turtles. Then the OT Turtles(voiced by the original actors) at the end doing what they do best. And to be fair the Nick show does seem to have elements from the OT cartoon as well as other versions.

I do think the worst thing they did was have the Turtles do in the movie was crying, running and fear when the situation got to out of hand, yes some of it felt like a good tribute, Some of it felt like a parody/caricature but that was too out of hand even for the movie. I understand they have to differentiate the two groups of Turtles but still.

[MrTMNT2012]

Guess that's what the new writers think of the 80s show is all.

Yeah cause reinventing the 80's show characters with respect and masterfully presenting new story lines around them classifies as an insult to everything from the 80's series... :roll:

[NinjaPug]

It's not as bad as what the Nick's version did to them, one quick cameo to make jokes at them.

Guess that's what the new writers think of the 80s show is all.

What did they do that was so bad? I thought it was a great, albeit brief appearance.

I also think Ciro and crew have a lot of affection for the OT.

[NiNi]

I don't think it was a direct insult.

However,to me, it was more like having the 1987 turtles and not having the original voice actors kind of defeats the purpose of having the special to begin with. That pretty much sums up what Townsend Coleman (I believe it was him) said basing on an episode of Talkin' Toons with Rob Paulsen when they had the 1987 cast all in one place as a mini reunion. (Episode 56 if you want to check it out.)

[alliance]

I just wanted to say i had fun reading this thread... i literally had to get away from my computer in general since im already banned from the 4kids section.. *whew* my account is still intact cause i didnt bother with this thread since i knew i wouldve went overboard.. it is what it is i guess..

[turtlefanforever]

Yeah cause reinventing the 80's show characters with respect and masterfully presenting new story lines around them classifies as an insult to everything from the 80's series... :roll:

HAHAH dude.. too much man. too much :tlol::tlol::tlol::tlol:

[sdp]

I haven't read the thread since I replied, I'll do it later but I did want to comment after watching The Manhattan Project that the Nick show handled the OT turtles perfectly. Sure they made a jab at them calling them goofy or whatever and said that after the worm they'd eat pizza which is not too in character for donatello but they were serious as well. That's how Turtles Forever should've handled them instead of making them into a parody.

Edit:skimmed through the thread and definitely disagree with many points, but I'll post about it another time when I have more time.

[1987]

lol i just now saw the phelous video review gotta agree with it.

in "turtles forever" the 4kids turtles were trying to say they had a better show then the ot turtles. well then howcome they only lasted 6 seasons while the ot turtles lasted 10 seasons? goes to show you who was good enough to stay on the air longer.

[Powder]

8 seasons, buddy.

[Technogeek29]

lol i just now saw the phelous video review gotta agree with it.

in "turtles forever" the 4kids turtles were trying to say they had a better show then the ot turtles. well then howcome they only lasted 6 seasons while the ot turtles lasted 10 seasons? goes to show you who was good enough to stay on the air longer.

Your really reaching for these are you? A lot and I mean A LOT of shows died out during the early 200's were it seem like 3 seasons was the norm of a cartoon. Very few made it to 4, 5 or heck 8 seasons. But their is a thread ofr this so I won't bring it up here.

[Konchadunga]

Ya, I have to agree. If you go back and watch the old show (not the first five episodes, but the majority of what came after those "mini-series" episodes), the ridiculousness is actually pretty much what was shown in Turtles Forever. It might seem like they were exaggerating, but they weren't really. If anything, it's more that the old cartoon was inconsistent with its goofiness and the characterizations of the characters, as it seemed to vary depending on who was writing which episode. Turtles Forever might be bit... biased in only drawing from episodes where the most ridiculousness was present, but to say that the old cartoon never reached those levels is a fallacy. It just fluctuated, is all.

Those points may be valid, but I still see absolutely no answer to my challenges in that blog, except for a single bit about Leonardo in a single episode. I will grant that TF is not the only derivative work to flanderize them all into Mikey--the live-action movies were well on their way--but given what "Mikey" meant to 4Kids, their take on that idea was entirely too obnoxious and inept. For all it's admitted problems, I still think the Fred Wolf show handled humor better than the 4Kids, and it's Michelangelo was much more tolerable.

[CyberCubed]

in "turtles forever" the 4kids turtles were trying to say they had a better show then the ot turtles. well then howcome they only lasted 6 seasons while the ot turtles lasted 10 seasons? goes to show you who was good enough to stay on the air longer.

This is the must utterly moronic comment I've read in a while. Most cartoons don't reach 100 episodes, and the fact that the 4kids series made 156 episodes is unbelieveable.

Batman: TAS, one of the greatest cartoons of all time, only lasted about 110 episodes. Superman: TAS was only 54 episodes. Teen Titans was only 65 episodes. Almost all Marvel shows are short-lived.

There aren't many cartoons from the 2000's that aren't comedies that lasted as long as the 4kids series did,

[Leofan26]

Animation and quick cameo didn't do them justice though, them crying and running to Raph was a bit much but yah know.

I guess it's been a while since I've seen the 80s series, I don't notice the 80s moments in the 2012 series. I'll have to go back and re watch.

[1987]

i think it all comes down to jealousy in the end. even if the 4kids show did outlast most other cartoons of its time with 156 episodes, it still did not beat the ot's record of 193 epsiodes. the ot ran from 1987-1996, 9 years, while the 4kids show ran from 2003-2009, only 6 years. so i think the writers were just jealous that they couldnt outlast the ot so they took out their frustrations on "turtles forever" by constanly bashing and humiliating the ot as much as possible. anyone who thinks "turtles forever" is a completely 100% accurate depiction of the ot is totally wrong, its just an ultrastereotypical parody of the ot to make them look like fools. it makes ridiculous stereotypical generalizations about a 193-episode series into a 73-minute movie. they abused their power to make their show look good.

[CyberCubed]

i think it all comes down to jealousy in the end. even if the 4kids show did outlast most other cartoons of its time with 156 episodes, it certainly did not beat the ot's record of 193 epsiodes. the ot ran from 1987-1996, 9 years, while the 4kids show ran from 2003-2009, only 6 years. so i think the writers were just jealous that they couldnt outlast the ot so they took out their frustrations on "turtles forever" by constanly bashing and humiliating the ot as much as possible. anyone who thinks "turtles forever" is a completely 100% accurate depiction of the ot is totally wrong, its just an ultrastereotypical parody of the ot to make them look like fools. it makes ridiculous stereotypical generalizations about a 193-episode series into a 73-minute movie. they abused their power to make their show look good.

You're delusional. The show was written by completely different people not looking to, "outdo" a previous series. The writers of the show aren't holding a grudge over an 80's cartoon.

Why the hell does it matter the show lasted less episodes than the original toon? TV is different today than it was in the 80's and 90's, most shows do not last a long time and childhood fads die quicker now.

[Powder]

This guy's not right in the head.

[Technogeek29]

^ What Powder said. I'm done! I'm not going to even begin to try to figure out what's wrong with you. He's all yours Cybercubed I'm out.

[Jester]

Wow....I even think the FW Turtles in Turtles Forever were caricatures of themselves, and I find that point completely ridiculous....

[FoxBoxKid]

I could argue that the 80's cartoon is an insult to the Mirage comics, but am I going to? No, because it doesn't matter. Even if the 80's Turtles are out of character in Turtles Forever, you still have the original cartoon. It's not like it was replaced.

[CyberCubed]

This guy's not right in the head.

He's the worst kind of casual. He's the type of casual whose so bad that he doesn't even realize he is a casual.

[Gabriel GP]

He's the worst kind of casual. He's the type of casual whose so bad that he doesn't even realize he is a casual.

You like to say casual don't you?

[1987]

He's the worst kind of casual. He's the type of casual whose so bad that he doesn't even realize he is a casual.

better than being a troll over-using the word "casual" and wanting to lock every thread

i feel i have a valid argument here and most people agree that the ot turtles are out of character in "turtles forever"

[turtle1237]

It was just Mikey poking fun, while Donnie admiring April's jumpsuit and the Turtles, April and Casey looking at shock/confusion at the FW Turtles. Then the OT Turtles(voiced by the original actors) at the end doing what they do best. And to be fair the Nick show does seem to have elements from the OT cartoon as well as other versions.

I do think the worst thing they did was have the Turtles do in the movie was crying, running and fear when the situation got to out of hand, yes some of it felt like a good tribute, Some of it felt like a parody/caricature but that was too out of hand even for the movie. I understand they have to differentiate the two groups of Turtles but still.

I though the Nick cartoon treated the old show with respect in that short time frame.

I have a hard time with Turtles forever, because from the old turtles crying with danger came to giving each other noggies ever 15 mins was really not what the 80's turtles were all about. The turtles from the 80's stood there ground and never back away unless force to reteat. And they never cry during the mist of battle. That was what got me upset the most. Sorry guys, even though it was short, Nick did it ten times better than Forever did. Forever was a insult to the old turtles by making them seem like cowards, which they were not. If they can stand there ground vs killer pizzas, than they can take on anything with out acting like cowards.

[Gwydion]

I'm pretty sure I've made my opinions on the OT's portrayal in TF clear in other threads, but just wanted to mention that I love Konchadunga's "scavenger hunt".

There were accurate jokes about the OT in TF (loved the ongoing one about the 4th wall), but I'll always feel those were overshadowed by the over-the-top gags, and it ultimately left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

[Konchadunga]

I could argue that the 80's cartoon is an insult to the Mirage comics, but am I going to? No, because it doesn't matter. Even if the 80's Turtles are out of character in Turtles Forever, you still have the original cartoon. It's not like it was replaced.

Thing is, calling the Fred Wolf show a direct insult to the Mirage series presumes the writers actually read it. For the short first season, they obviously did, though they made changes they felt were necessitated by cartoon standards. After that, well; I don't see much evidence they paid attention at all.

I think a case can be made, actually, that this lack of fidelity might give the Fred Wolf show staying power compared to the 4Kids show. Because it virtually wiped the slate clean and started from scratch, it had the ability to become its own thing. With 4Kids, they were essentially following but also watering down Mirage constantly, which made it still more exciting than Fred Wolf, but compared to the source material instead, it just feels pointless now.

That being said, the bits of the 4Kids show that more-or-less follow Mirage still are more entertaining than the ones that don't, which is another reason TF pisses me off; by that time, the 4Kids show was in no position to cast stones at Fred Wolf over lack of accuracy.

[turtle1237]

This is the must utterly moronic comment I've read in a while. Most cartoons don't reach 100 episodes, and the fact that the 4kids series made 156 episodes is unbelieveable.

Batman: TAS, one of the greatest cartoons of all time, only lasted about 110 episodes. Superman: TAS was only 54 episodes. Teen Titans was only 65 episodes. Almost all Marvel shows are short-lived.

There aren't many cartoons from the 2000's that aren't comedies that lasted as long as the 4kids series did,

You cant really compare Batman TAS or Superman because the same team did every thing in regards to this.

Bruce Timm and crew pretty much jump from Batman to Superman to Batman Beyond, to Justice League to JLU. It was not like any show got "can", more like the team moving on to the next part in the story. But from Batman to JLU really lasted about 15 or so years.

[CyberCubed]

You cant really compare Batman TAS or Superman because the same team did every thing in regards to this.

Bruce Timm and crew pretty much jump from Batman to Superman to Batman Beyond, to Justice League to JLU. It was not like any show got "can", more like the team moving on to the next part in the story. But from Batman to JLU really lasted about 15 or so years.

However their shows were still canceled before they ever knew they were getting another series. When Batman and Superman ended they had no clue they would create Justice League in 2000. They simply got lucky.

Superman and Batman Beyond only lasted 54 and 52 episodes respectively. I'm sure those shows would have went on a lot longer if given the chance.

[plastroncafe]

Can we nix the idea that Run Length is indicative of overall quality of the show in question?

[turtle1237]

However their shows were still canceled before they ever knew they were getting another series. When Batman and Superman ended they had no clue they would create Justice League in 2000. They simply got lucky.

Superman and Batman Beyond only lasted 54 and 52 episodes respectively. I'm sure those shows would have went on a lot longer if given the chance.

I did watch the bouns features on all the Batman-JLU dvds, and pretty much they had a feeling that when Superman was wraping up, Justice Leauge was going to happen, but they also needed a "Feel" of a superhero team up, hench why Superman got team ups with Lobo, GL, Batman, Steel ete over the course of the series. To pretty much get ready for this 7 member super team.

At one point the guys were doing 3 shows at once with the New Batman cartoon, Superman and Batman beyond all at once during the end, so they were getting wine down from all the work. If JL got the green light was never 100 percent, but they did know that JL would be possible.

[ABrown]

If anything was an insult to something, I feel like that "Wormquake" episode of the Nick series is a direct insult to Turtles Forever. The 4Kids series already did a portrayal of the original cartoon's turtles. It's bad enough that Nick botched up the dvd, now they pretend like the film didn't even happen.

[BubblyShell22]

Dude, what are you talking about? It was just a short cameo hinting that there might be another cameo and meeting between the Nick Turtles and the FW Turtles. Nothing insulting about that at all considering they actually had the original VAs, which is something TF didn't do.

[sdp]

Why is this turning into a 2k3 vs OT thread? They're different shows and they're both respectably great.

Anyway I fail to see how people don't see it as a caricature or people who justify it as necessary to see the differences between them. The Nick show handled the turtles perfectly, the dorks job was a quick jab and that was it. The eating Pizza was not entirely accurate but it works to show this is a lighter universe however the turtles go into action with their catch phrases. If the Turtles Forever OT Turtles had been in the Nick show they would've run from the problem and given nuggies to each other. The Nick show exagerated the qualities of the OT turtles without making them into parodies. Ironically the 2k3 show made the OT turtles act like Mikey from their own show who was far more goofy than the OT.

Shredder being incompetent? He was actually quite competent for the most part in the OT. In the first two seasons he was seen as this feared opponent the turtles themselves couldn't go against him. Sure most of his plots failed but when he was there for the most part you knew it meant business. In some of the later seasons he does start being less of a threat even when fighting the turtles but that's still less than most of the 100+ episode run. Sure he whined a lot but to say he would let Ch'rell do what he wants is another thing. He didn't suffer that bad from Villain decay as other villains from the OTs generation. I think he was defeated ONCE by having a pizza thrown at his face. The turtles always meant action and while they had fun and never had contact they were not weak or afraid to fight.

No nostalgia glasses here either, while I grew up with the turtles I rarely got to watch the TV show besides the Burger King VHS tapes. I saw most of the show as it came out on DVD. Now why is it upsetting that they treat them like that? Because it was supposed to be a celebration of the turtles with the two shows, they could've handled the "they're goofy" better than treating them like some Looney Toons version of the characters. Instead of being happy that they got one last hoorah they were made fun of. I'm also not trying to say the OT was some epic struggle between Shredder and Krang but between its universe's rules it followed them and was consistent it wasn't Looney Toons logic or only a comedy show and you can't watch Turtles Forever after watching the "wackiest" of the OT's episodes and think they're the same turtles.

[Konchadunga]

Except that depending on which character we're talking about, the Fred Wolf Turtles/villains could've been made like "Looney Toons" and still been competent.

[turtle1237]

I am not saying the show didnt have its goofy movements, from Mikey trying to a giant fly trap fall in love with him, or a ape taking off with April right out of King Kong, or even Irma getting turn into a gaint.

The show had a comic value to it. What Forever did was well, mess the whole thing up. Yes I can take Raphael breaking the 4th wall, because he did that though out the show. I can deal with Don fixing stuff with a flashlight or gum, because he pull it off, but even in the show, they had to make you belive he could do it(Which here they didnt)

Things that did not set well was the noggies all the time, talking about pizza instand of planning on a way of attack, The crying got me the most, being afraid, and not really acting like the OT cartoon turtles.

The show had comic vaule, but they also never ran from a fight.

[billbot85]

The crying got me the most, being afraid, and not really acting like the OT cartoon turtles.

Yeah, the turtles crying was like a total slap in the face to all fans of the OT. Even though I tried to look at TF through a fair and unbiased perspective in my previous statement, it felt like the overall recurring theme in that movie was the 2k3 series pissing all over the OT series.

[Pterobat]

Well, I'll have you know that my OT cred is off the charts. Don't you dare question it! :P

Anyway, being angry that Turtles Forever didn't get every tiny detail right, and reducing your rebuttal to the special to a checklist, is not seeing the forest for the trees. No, TF can't be completely accurate to the original cartoon because it's NOT the original cartoon, but an imitation filtered through a different production team.

However, it's an imitation for the purpose of tribute. The special is here to have fun with both universes, and Mirage, too. It's a tribute to all things TMNT.

And sometimes, believe it or not, people mock the things they like. Shocking on the internet, I know. Poking fun at the OT and playing up the contrasts between it and the 4Kids Turtles is'nt "bashing", it's playful, fun mockery.

I'd also like to add that we still don't know how popular or well-remembered the 4Kids series will be in the past, because it's only a decade old--not long enough yet for the wheel of nostalgia to start turning for 00s kids.

Plus, the vast majority of kids who watched it then didn't know Mirage from nothing, so calling the 4Kids series less successful 'cause it was derivative of Mirage doesn't hold water. Most of the viewers didn't know these were adaptations of older comics.

ETA: "Casual" is an idiotic term. Everyone, no matter who they are, has better things to do than police who are "real fans".

[CyberCubed]

I don't get why people complain about the walking banana. Did people not watch the episode where the Turtles fought moving vegetables? (Season 4 finale?)

Not to mention there was a time Michaelangelo fought a pizza that was trying to eat him, even if it was a hologram from a mad scientist.

[turtle1237]

I don't get why people complain about the walking banana. Did people not watch the episode where the Turtles fought moving vegetables? (Season 4 finale?)

Not to mention there was a time Michaelangelo fought a pizza that was trying to eat him, even if it was a hologram from a mad scientist.

I not complaining about the banana, The turtles in its ten seasons fought all kinds of odd stuff from pizza meat balls to alien kids toys to even a computer trying to take over the world with toasters and freezers. I have nothing against the 2003 series, 7 seasons, over all a good run and fun to watch. Loved the show.

It was the way they pretty much insulted the old show with how the 80's turtles were acting in that cross over, From the noggies, to running away scared, and I not even going to get into how Shredder and Krang were protrey.

I think the tickle ray gun in the end was too much for showing suppose how lame 80's Shredder was. He didnt even do anything but wait around and let 2003 Shredder do everything pretty much.

OT Shredder at his best was a real threat, from almost cooking the earth, to leading invaded Rock armys, to pretty much making Newton's law invailed.

He even got one over Dredd in the last season. He was a force to recon with. Yeah he may not of been scary like 2003 Shredder, but with his robot armies, he was a very good villian.

[sdp]

Ironically they made all OT turtles act out like 2k3 Mikey, who was whiny and idiotic most of the time, not to mention annoying. I agree that TF was made to celebrate all things turtle related, I never expected it and I think someone confirmed that it was made out of Mirages wallet for the anniversary. They went through great lengths to find the original concept art and hyped it up only to slap fans of the original show in the face with their portrayal, of them. The explanation of "their turtles from a wackier universe in the turtleverse not the OT" fails since the fact that its the original turtles that makes the crossover cool. I have to think if it was Peter who suggested all those things to make fun of them and the crew just went along with him. I always imagined OT Leonardo throwing a pizza and then attacking the foot with the 2k3 turtles, instead we saw OT Leo throwing a pizza only to keep making jokes be captured and then be saved by the 2k3 turtles. I've always been surprised by the lack of anger in this forum about this and yet this fandom complains about such petty things instead.

Anyway, how will the 2k3 turtles be remembered in 10 years? Probably not very well, even though the show lasted for so long and having lots of toys and videogames being on the Fox Box and then 4Kids TV hurt it a lot. Not many people are even aware that it exists, and many retrospectives "by geeks" skip the 2k3 show in their research or just make a quick note. We've seen the OT turtles in the Nick show and we might see them again. I bet you the 2k3 turtles won't get that chance in the show. Nick only bought the rights to the show because it came with the deal and they're glad no other channel can air the show now. We'll need a company like shout who is interested in releasing the show for it to ever get a DVD release since Nick won't give it one. Truly a shame since 2k3 is IMO the BTAS of the turtles franchise because of Laird being in charge and I don't see us getting another animated show like it.

[CyberCubed]

I think the tickle ray gun in the end was too much for showing suppose how lame 80's Shredder was. He didnt even do anything but wait around and let 2003 Shredder do everything pretty much.

OT Shredder at his best was a real threat, from almost cooking the earth, to leading invaded Rock armys, to pretty much making Newton's law invailed.

He even got one over Dredd in the last season. He was a force to recon with. Yeah he may not of been scary like 2003 Shredder, but with his robot armies, he was a very good villian.

Shredder was portrayed perfectly. 80's Shredder hovered between being an incompetent goofball or a real threat depending on the episode. Shredder obviously has nothing on 2k3 Shredder who actually was a real threat inside his suit.

This is portraying the characters accurately. I don't know how you can watch Seasons 3-5 where 80's Shredder was always tripping over himself or getting defeated by having a pizza thrown in his face or whining when Bebop/Rocksteady were failing him for the hundreth time.

There are some episodes where 80's Shredder is written more competent than usual and he's a real threat, but don't act like he wasn't treated as a goofy villain especially in the middle seasons of the show.

[Konchadunga]

Well, I'll have you know that my OT cred is off the charts. Don't you dare question it! :P

Anyway, being angry that Turtles Forever didn't get every tiny detail right, and reducing your rebuttal to the special to a checklist, is not seeing the forest for the trees.

And debating using proverbs is dumb. Just because my rebuttal includes a checklist doesn't mean it was reduced to one.

In case you weren't aware, forests are made of trees. Just as I have never seen a pink tree, I will question why a pink tree exists in someone's drawing of a forest, even if it is only one. The OT Turtles crying under pressure is a pink tree. A little error like making them all pizza-obsessed is forgivable on the grounds that it's at least a misinterpretation of the truth; that bit is not. It's either pure elitism or an error out of nowhere.

No, TF can't be completely accurate to the original cartoon because it's NOT the original cartoon, but an imitation filtered through a different production team.

Naturally, but I can think of many, many ways to do it better than they did, and for the record, the portrayal they gave of the OT was only the tip of the iceberg in terms of that movie's poor writing.

However, it's an imitation for the purpose of tribute. The special is here to have fun with both universes, and Mirage, too. It's a tribute to all things TMNT.

And sometimes, believe it or not, people mock the things they like. Shocking on the internet, I know. Poking fun at the OT and playing up the contrasts between it and the 4Kids Turtles is'nt "bashing", it's playful, fun mockery.


HOW IS MAKING THE OT LOOK WEAK CONSIDERED PLAYFUL, FUN MOCKERY?! Playing up the differences between the two is absolutely no excuse when that difference didn't even exist. And I won't buy that adapting something is an uphill battle as the excuse for why they needed to have that crying bit in, nor the scene where Krang joins the fight against Ch'rel, but accomplishes absolutely nothing; considering they could have left them out and had less of an uphill battle.

I'd also like to add that we still don't know how popular or well-remembered the 4Kids series will be in the past,

Since when is past a synonym for future?

because it's only a decade old--not long enough yet for the wheel of nostalgia to start turning for 00s kids.

Plus, the vast majority of kids who watched it then didn't know Mirage from nothing, so calling the 4Kids series less successful 'cause it was derivative of Mirage doesn't hold water. Most of the viewers didn't know these were adaptations of older comics.

Another gross misinterpretation of my views. At no point did I say the 4Kids series was "less successful" because if was derivative of Mirage. Indeed; it was a success, and the more well-received parts of it were the ones that followed Mirage. Generally, people liked seeing a darker, tougher, and more adventurous version of the Turtles, as well as the expanded plot; even if they didn't know it was drawn from Mirage. Substantially less liked Shredder being an alien, the Ninja Tribunal, Fast Forward, or Back to the Sewers.

What I actually said is that, as an adult who has access to the Mirage series--and now more people than ever do--the 4Kids series seems less essential to me; there arguably aren't enough differences between the two to justify its own existence, and many of those differences that do exist, aren't for the better.

Edit: Now to clarify, my old post about everything wrong with the movie:

It's not just the portrayal of the Fred Wolf turtles that bothers me about the movie; almost all aspects of it feel like a bad fanfiction.

For example, contrived deux ex machinas for warping. I don't remember anything as lame as a dimensional teleporter made from a flashlight (nor Don saying science relied on guesswork and positive thinking to make such things) or a galactic Google search with a built-in retrieval beam in the OT, but even if they were, either they shouldn't have still worked in the 2003 universe, or the latter should have at least given the OT villains some sort of leg up, instead of just being used to bring back Ch'rel and humiliate them. Also, how is it that OT Don can build a working teleporter from a flashlight, but somehow the lasers he built on the Turtlevan out of parts from Stockman's lab suddenly don't hurt villains? What possible excuse is there for that?

Also, plotholes; so many I'll count them:
1) How did the OT Turtles get out of the Technodrome when it warped to the 4Kids universe?
2) How did Karai know that Ch'rel was back, underground, in a giant Christmas ornament?
3) For that matter, why was Karai still loyal to him? I thought that bit had been closed as of the end of the Teenage Mutant Naruto Turtles arc, and then proven to have stayed closed when she fought against the cyber Shredder; knowing he was Ch'rel's ordered successor.
4) Why was Ch'rel impressed by mutagen? Utroms knew about it, as well as how to make it, for a long time.
5) Where the shell is everyone in the Mirage universe?! I've been to New York, and nowhere were the streets just barren at night, but even if I could buy that in that one place, the people were just sleeping, the Technodrome rampaging would have woken them up. There wasn't even any evidence of the commotion caused by them fleeing it, and in New York, that many people could not have fled all at once without many of them being gridlocked.
6) Finally, and I get that this is meta, but what was Ch'rel's plan supposed to be? Since the only way for him to understand that one universe inspires another is by knowing it's all fiction, and he hoped to erase it all by killing the Turtles, what was stopping Eastman and Laird from just stopping him from doing it? Was he aware of them? Could he come out and kill them? Were they aware that someone was alive in their graphic novel and it was trying to rewrite itself?

Again, I know this is meta and you might argue I shouldn't be thinking about it, but I retort that the writers of the movie shouldn't have gone there for that very reason. Their whole cosmology is just dumb, and in my opinion, they didn't achieve Rule of Funny or Rule of Cool nearly enough to make that forgivable; in practice they just came off as annoying and cocky.

[Jeff]

Yo...does anyone know what the words "homage," "parody," or to an extent "roast" mean? Those words all describe how the 87 Turtles were handled in Forever and those words also are positives, and are done with respect. Just like you could tell your buddy to go **** himself while giving him a hug...87 and 2K3 are buddies. If the 87 Turtles were really insulted by 2K3, then 2K3 were DEFINITELY insulted by the Mirage Turtles. A lot of people look at the 87 series with rose colored glasses (and I DO have a lot of nostalgic love for it) but all in all, it was a silly show (which is fine, given its demographic and lasting success) but it was also...not a very good show. All Forever did was poke fun at the cliches that were rampant in 87.

And at the end of the day the ultimate insult from one franchise to another is how Nickelodeon insults 2K3 by pretending it didn't ****ing exist. From the tiny cameo in "Wormquake!" to its complete lack of any merchandise, especially a DVD release of the last season.

[Powder]

And at the end of the day the ultimate insult from one franchise to another is how Nickelodeon insults 2K3 by pretending it didn't ****ing exist.

That's not really fair to say, at least not on a whole. IDW has been making use of quite a few 4kids characters.

[Jeff]

That's not really fair to say, at least not on a whole. IDW has been making use of quite a few 4kids characters.

Hun and Angel.

That's it. I can't think of one other character or storyline or anything that was spawned in 2K3 that IDW uses. It seems like Nick just gives free reign to IDW, since IDW makes up their own characters, etc. I mean as far as the show and all other merchandising goes. From action figures (87 rereleases, to Classics) to every other tchotchke emblazoned with the 87 series. It does make sense, since their primary market for the Nick show is kids, and the primary market for 87 is their parents, or parent-aged counterparts, and the fans that were kids around 2k3...are in an awkward kid-less limbo (I guess????)...but what else does 2K3 have still? Ice Cream truck popsicles?

[Shark_Blade]

And at the end of the day the ultimate insult from one franchise to another is how Nickelodeon insults 2K3 by pretending it didn't ****ing exist. From the tiny cameo in "Wormquake!" to its complete lack of any merchandise, especially a DVD release of the last season.I love that Nick completely ignores 2k3. After the insult that is Turtles Forever belittling the OT, they kind of deserve it.

Thank you Nick. :tcool:

[Jeff]

I love that Nick ignores 2k3. After the insult that is Turtles Forever belittling the OT, they kind of deserves it.

Thank you Nick. :tcool:

I tried being diplomatic, but even if they did insult 87 (which....they didn't), I'm glad, because 87 does NOT deserve the praise it gets. If anything they get a handshake for giving the franchise lasting power, but other than that...the show sucks.

[Shark_Blade]

The show is the pinnacle of the series tbh. Even recently for example, when delivering news of Megan Fox casted as April, they put OT April pics for comparison, not 2k3 April. :tcool:

[Technogeek29]

This is going nowhere fast.

On that note Nick took several ideas from 2k3 but unlike the OT where its obvious. 2k3's are mostly subtle. In Mirage Leo and Karai we're business partners at best. 2k3 introduce that she was something more to Leo. The Purple dragons were one off characters who only appeared twice in Mirage. Their reacurring theme is from 2k3 when most people didn't know and for that matter didn't care who they were. Utroms while important were never really huge in the TMNT. 2k3, Nick and IDW have changed that.

[Powder]

I like how virtually every person speaking in favor of the OT in this thread is making a pissing contest of the matter. What little hate the series does get is due to you guys. You're so annoying.

Hun and Angel.

That's it. I can't think of one other character or storyline or anything that was spawned in 2K3 that IDW uses. It seems like Nick just gives free reign to IDW, since IDW makes up their own characters, etc.

Pretty sure Bishop is on the way and I wanna say there was someone else eluded to though it escapes me at the moment. I'm sure in due time it will give more reference to the book. I hope so, anyway. IDW doesn't have free reign, though. I know at the very least they're not allowed to use Nick series characters so I imagine there are other policies at work.

[Jeff]

The show is the pinnacle of the series tbh. Even recently for example, when delivering news of Megan Fox casted as April, they put OT April pics for comparison, not 2k3 April. :tcool:

i'm being presumptuous, but i have a feeling time will prove me right in saying that comparing what you're trying to say is better than what im trying to say is better to the upcoming movie does NOT help your argument, like...at all.

[1987]

I love that Nick completely ignores 2k3. After the insult that is Turtles Forever belittling the OT, they kind of deserve it.

Thank you Nick. :tcool:

totally agree with u on that. i have nothing against the 2k3 series i thought it was an all around good show, but after the way they treated the ot in "turtles forever", almost makes me wanna boycott it. i did see the nick "wormquake" ot clip on youtube, much more of a respectable portrayal of the ot than 2k3 did. maybe i can find some good in the nick series after all.

i loved the part when mirage comics leo sticks up for the ot turtles near the end of "turtles forever" because with those writers they couldnt possibly defend themselves, but then i was shocked how they belittled comic shredder by defeating him so quickly with garbage.

[Powder]

They didn't "belittle" Mirage Shredder, they're just making a joke of the fact he was beaten in the very first issue, you know, quickly disposed of. Jesus.

[Jeff]

Pretty sure Bishop is on the way and I wanna say there was someone else eluded to though it escapes me at the moment. I'm sure in due time it will give more reference to the book. I hope so, anyway. IDW doesn't have free reign, though. I know at the very least they're not allowed to use Nick series characters so I imagine there are other policies at work.

I can agree with all of that. IDW is doing an exceptional job at incorporating all sorts of goodies from all incarnations into the story. I do have to ask, though...if some people think Turtles forever took a **** all over 87 turtles, how do you feel about how IDW has handled characters like Bebop and Rocksteady, or Krang? They essentially changed everything about Krang...does that mean that they disrespect the source material?

And to further prove my point that Forever didn't disrespect 87...can you remind me again who ultimately saved the multiverse in Forever? Oh yeah...it was Bebop and Rocksteady.

[Jeff]

i loved the part when mirage comics leo sticks up for the ot turtles near the end of "turtles forever" because with those writers they couldnt possibly defend themselves, but then i was shocked how they belittled comic shredder by defeating him so quickly with garbage.

"those writers" also wrote that Leo. js

[Technogeek29]

totally agree with u on that. i have nothing against the 2k3 series i thought it was an all around good show, but after the way they treated the ot in "turtles forever", almost makes me wanna boycott it. i did see the nick "wormquake" ot clip on youtube, much more of a respectable portrayal of the ot than 2k3 did. maybe i can find some good in the nick series after all.

i loved the part when mirage comics leo sticks up for the ot turtles near the end of "turtles forever" because with those writers they couldnt possibly defend themselves, but then i was shocked how they belittled comic shredder by defeating him so quickly with garbage.


That was more of a joke at how Shredder isn't a big part of the Mirage universe. Just the aftermath of killing him is.

[CyberCubed]

LOL @ people saying Nick ignores 2k3.

Karai being Shredder's adoptive daughter, Raph smacking Mikey, Hun and Angel in IDW, are all from the 2k3 series.

I'm also sure we'll see more 2k3 characters who up as Nick and IDW progress. IDW already hinted at Bishop appearing eventually.

[Jeff]

LOL @ people saying Nick ignores 2k3.

Karai being Shredder's adoptive daughter, Raph smacking Mikey, Hun and Angel in IDW, are all from the 2k3 series.

I'm also sure we'll see more 2k3 characters who up as Nick and IDW progress. IDW already hinted at Bishop appearing eventually.

i was more commenting on the merchandising aspect.

[Pterobat]

Yo...does anyone know what the words "homage," "parody," or to an extent "roast" mean? Those words all describe how the 87 Turtles were handled in Forever and those words also are positives, and are done with respect. Just like you could tell your buddy to go **** himself while giving him a hug...87 and 2K3 are buddies. If the 87 Turtles were really insulted by 2K3, then 2K3 were DEFINITELY insulted by the Mirage Turtles. A lot of people look at the 87 series with rose colored glasses (and I DO have a lot of nostalgic love for it) but all in all, it was a silly show (which is fine, given its demographic and last success) but it was also...not a very good show. All Forever did was poke fun at the cliches that were rampant in 87.

And at the end of the day the ultimate insult from one franchise to another is how Nickelodeon insults 2K3 by pretending it didn't ****ing exist. From the tiny cameo in "Wormquake!" to its complete lack of any merchandise, especially a DVD release of the last season.

This one up here gets it.

Turtles Forever not being 100% like the actual cartoon isn't the point. The point is whether the special's actual intention succeeded. That intention wasn't to offer an exact duplicate of the OT, but to have a tribute to the franchise and a fun riff on the basic contrasts between the two cartoons.

The crying thing was the only really "off" thing for the OT Turtles. The rest worked for me, and ditto for the portrayal of the villains.

And as I said, it'll take some time before we can be sure that the 4Kids show sinks or swims in the collective cultural memory. It could be like how Transformers fans claimed Beast Wars would never be remembered, but then it's survived and gotten several homages.

And even if the Mirage material formed the springboard or most of the 4Kids series' best arcs and episodes, the changes are still enough that the 4Kids version stands out and is easy to imagine standing the test of time, instead of being considered redundant because of the Mirage comic; the latter's still a niche work that didn't have as much public exposure as a kid's TV series.

[Metalwolf]

6) Finally, and I get that this is meta, but what was Ch'rel's plan supposed to be? Since the only way for him to understand that one universe inspires another is by knowing it's all fiction, and he hoped to erase it all by killing the Turtles, what was stopping Eastman and Laird from just stopping him from doing it? Was he aware of them? Could he come out and kill them? Were they aware that someone was alive in their graphic novel and it was trying to rewrite itself?

Again, I know this is meta and you might argue I shouldn't be thinking about it, but I retort that the writers of the movie shouldn't have gone there for that very reason. Their whole cosmology is just dumb, and in my opinion, they didn't achieve Rule of Funny or Rule of Cool nearly enough to make that forgivable; in practice they just came off as annoying and cocky.
Edit: Now to clarify, my old post about everything wrong with the movie:Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! I thought I was the only one who saw that and was bothered by it :D

Plus I'll also add that trying to be meta can easily go off into Twilight Zone territory if you aren't careful. It can become creepy (as it did for me) because it ended up implying that what the all Turtles thought was 'reality' really was only a cartoon, and their whole lives were a fabrication from some writer's imagination.

It is hard to convey exactly what I feel, but I would say honestly that this subplot should not have been added. Later I can give an idea of what I think is good meta, but I definitely know that how they did this here simply came off as too wrong.

[Jester]

I am begining to wonder if the "lack" of 4kids references is due to most of it's run being "Mirage Lite."

[ironman29758]

I though the Nick cartoon treated the old show with respect in that short time frame.

I have a hard time with Turtles forever, because from the old turtles crying with danger came to giving each other noggies ever 15 mins was really not what the 80's turtles were all about. The turtles from the 80's stood there ground and never back away unless force to reteat. And they never cry during the mist of battle. That was what got me upset the most. Sorry guys, even though it was short, Nick did it ten times better than Forever did. Forever was a insult to the old turtles by making them seem like cowards, which they were not. If they can stand there ground vs killer pizzas, than they can take on anything with out acting like cowards.
sorry it took so long, I agree with this post. I got the DVDS later, my first introduction to the Fred Wolf era Turtles(I thought it was really telling when the Turtles and Splinter was criticizing Mikey for being rash, saying to be more like Raphael which had me looking in shock) and I thought it was messed up that the Turtles were crying in fear of battle, yeah it's one thing to have the 2k3 Turtles make comments on the 1987 Turtles and then the Mirage Turtles doing the same to both of those Turtles and their crazy antics as a way to contrast those personality but having them cry took it to a level to far imo.

But that's not to say 2k3 didn't introduce some good ideas that didn't have a lasting impact on the Turtles universe in whole. Honestly if I had to say if anything has a less lasting impact is the Turtles movie 2-4. I can't say Next Mutation(because people see to remember Venus and still talk about the Power Rangers/Turtles team up despite none of the other villains being used in other Turtles mythos).

[pannoni1]

It was plain and simple that 4kids wanted to show that "we're the definitive version of the Turtles" by not just insulting the OT, but also the Mirage Shredder, ending up defeated in far, far greater time than what was portrayed. But 4kids felt that they needed to be clever enough to win over the casual audience who enjoyed the OT by having good shout-outs provided, and all things considered didn't do a bad job. The animation wasn't any worse than what the OT was, most of the key charachters/locations are featured, and of course we get to hear Cowabunga, eat pizza, and most importantly have the Technodrome. Don't blame the less than great voice acting since that wasn't possible through the contracts at the time; just feel that the writers wanted to have a clear winner that wants to serve as the grand finale to the 4kidsverse, and it did its job well. 4kids as a company was very unlike Fred Wolf/Group W in terms of production styles; Nickelodeon has better relations with them, and much more than just Rob Paulsen. The bottom line is that the OT had lots of satrical elements; 4kids followed suit by giving the satire of the OT.

But there is a difference between "homage", "parody", and a "satire/roast" however. Homage provides a nice, accurate recreation that connects well with the main canon, even if just a brief clip (Nick). Parody however implies the "in-name only" that seems to only stem from the popular mind and retools it into something that's quite diminiuitive to the classic. I'm sure you know what a satire is. I just enjoy Turtles Forever for what it is, the "series finale" of the 4kids series that provides an animated homage to Mirage even if that Shredder battle is just a mock parody with some satrical elements used when the 4kids/OTverses crossover.

[Lisardo]

^ Well put. I understand what they were doing in Turtles Forever and I accept it for what it is. However I still wish they had shown the OT Turtles to be more like what they were actually like, and not so over the top goofy. But I get what you're saying, it was the 2k3's show, not the OT's, so they were the definitive version there. However one plus was that even though the original voice actors weren't present for the OT turtles, at least the substitute VA voiced Leonardo very similar to Cam Clarke's Leonardo in the first two seasons, in that he had that lower register (that I wished he had kept throughout the series).

[TurtleManiac]

I thought the same thing when I first watched "Turtles Forever", it really did seem like they were just trying to make fun of the OT turtles. But being that it was directed by the 2K3 show crew, I guess it was expected that they would wanna make the 2K3 turtles look better than whatever they're comparing themselves to. The drawings of the OT characters were very accurate though, it was a trip to see some memorable scenes from the OT like when they're underground and get to the Technodrome and all those Foot Soldiers come running out, and also seeing Bebop and Rocksteady fighting alongside the Foot Soldiers was something that was rarely seen in the OT so I thought that was interesting. But overall the character development in this film was horrible, they made all 4 OT turtles all have the personality of Michaelangelo or even wackier and couldnt take anything seriously. The noogies and the crying scene were out of line. Oh well, doesn't really matter because it wasn't the real OT turtles in this film. The real OT is still intact and that's what counts.

[turtlefanforever]

I thought the same thing when I first watched "Turtles Forever", it really did seem like they were just trying to make fun of the OT turtles. But being that it was directed by the 2K3 show crew, I guess it was expected that they would wanna make the 2K3 turtles look better than whatever they're comparing themselves to. The drawings of the OT characters were very accurate though, it was a trip to see some memorable scenes from the OT like when they're underground and get to the Technodrome and all those Foot Soldiers come running out, and also seeing Bebop and Rocksteady fighting alongside the Foot Soldiers was something that was rarely seen in the OT so I thought that was interesting. But overall the character development in this film was horrible, they made all 4 OT turtles all have the personality of Michaelangelo or even wackier and couldnt take anything seriously. The noogies and the crying scene were out of line. Oh well, doesn't really matter because it wasn't the real OT turtles in this film. The real OT is still intact and that's what counts.

There were very serious Villains in OT but they used all the stupid ones when they saved april

[CyberCubed]

There were very serious Villains in OT but they used all the stupid ones when they saved april

Why would they use the others? Shredder and Krang were the only major villains of the series.

There was no reason to throw Rat King, Baxter, and Leatherhead in that one small scene out of nowhere.

[1987]

the only reason the ot turtles were portrayed they way they were in this film, was out of anger/jealousy. 2k3 in their prime thought they were smooth sailing, hoping to outlast the ot in how long it stays on the air. but nope, that didn't happen. 2k3 show sunk like the titanic. mirage didnt care enough to keep them around cause they werent as successful as the ot, so here comes the big nickelodeon sale. the 2k3 turtles figured "hey, if we're going out, we're bringing the ot turtles down with us!". there really was no reason to resurrect the ot turtles, they could have just took their defeat with good sportsmanship and had their own series final only based on their universe. but no, they had to be di*ks and humiliate the ot turtles, krang, shredder, and everything about the ot. i think their whole goal was they wanted to be rembered as the guys who out performed the ot turtles, but they completely flushed their own legacy down the toilet. look at them now, oh wait, they not around anymore hahaha!!!:lol:now who's laughing? all the retro merchandise nick puts out these days is ot stuff, nobody cares about the 2k3 turtles. they dug their own grave by portraying out beloved ot turtles as complete idiots. they wanted to be the cooler more remembered universe of tmnt after the nick takeover, but they failed by insulting the flagship tmnt cartoon, and now they pay the price.

[sdp]

I don't understand how anyone can justify how badly the OT turtles were treated in Turtles Forever.

[Powder]

the only reason the ot turtles were portrayed they way they were in this film, was out of anger/jealousy. 2k3 in their prime thought they were smooth sailing, hoping to outlast the ot in how long it stays on the air. but nope, that didn't happen. 2k3 show sunk like the titanic. mirage didnt care enough to keep them around cause they werent as successful as the ot, so here comes the big nickelodeon sale. the 2k3 turtles figured "hey, if we're going out, we're bringing the ot turtles down with us!". there really was no reason to resurrect the ot turtles, they could have just took their defeat with good sportsmanship and had their own series final only based on their universe. but no, they had to be di*ks and humiliate the ot turtles, krang, shredder, and everything about the ot. i think their whole goal was they wanted to be rembered as the guys who out performed the ot turtles, but they completely flushed their own legacy down the toilet. look at them now, oh wait, they not around anymore hahaha!!!:lol:now who's laughing? all the retro merchandise nick puts out these days is ot stuff, nobody cares about the 2k3 turtles. they dug their own grave by portraying out beloved ot turtles as complete idiots. they wanted to be the cooler more remembered universe of tmnt after the nick takeover, but they failed by insulting the flagship tmnt cartoon, and now they pay the price.

It's amazing how wrong one man can really be.

[Autbot_Benz]

the only reason the ot turtles were portrayed they way they were in this film, was out of anger/jealousy. 2k3 in their prime thought they were smooth sailing, hoping to outlast the ot in how long it stays on the air. but nope, that didn't happen. 2k3 show sunk like the titanic. mirage didnt care enough to keep them around cause they werent as successful as the ot, so here comes the big nickelodeon sale. the 2k3 turtles figured "hey, if we're going out, we're bringing the ot turtles down with us!". there really was no reason to resurrect the ot turtles, they could have just took their defeat with good sportsmanship and had their own series final only based on their universe. but no, they had to be di*ks and humiliate the ot turtles, krang, shredder, and everything about the ot. i think their whole goal was they wanted to be rembered as the guys who out performed the ot turtles, but they completely flushed their own legacy down the toilet. look at them now, oh wait, they not around anymore hahaha!!!:lol:now who's laughing? all the retro merchandise nick puts out these days is ot stuff, nobody cares about the 2k3 turtles. they dug their own grave by portraying out beloved ot turtles as complete idiots. they wanted to be the cooler more remembered universe of tmnt after the nick takeover, but they failed by insulting the flagship tmnt cartoon, and now they pay the price.

http://i59.tinypic.com/29m880j.jpg

[IndigoErth]

I'll be honest, I don't personally think it portrayed the 1987 OR 2003 Turtles all that great.

It definitely made '87 out to be kind of infantile, rather than just silly, BUT it also made 2003 look rather cocky imo. I saw Turtles Forever before ever finally seeing the 2003 series (last summer) and it had me fully expecting them to have jerky personalities; I really wasn't sure if I was going to like it. And then in the show they weren't jerks at all and I liked it quite a bit...

[DarkFell]

I wasn't crazy about the Turtles Forever movie, but I wanna ask.. why were both the cut and the uncut versions of the movie pulled from Youtube? I skimmed through this thread but I didn't really find much of an answer.

[Jester]

Unless they were up by Nick/Viacom then it's probably copyright.

[Bry]

And heeere we go again!

the only reason the ot turtles were portrayed they way they were in this film, was out of anger/jealousy.

And you're basing this on... what, exactly? Seriously. Any evidence? Any inside info? Anything at all?

2k3 in their prime thought they were smooth sailing, hoping to outlast the ot in how long it stays on the air.

I can promise you that nobody assumed that was going to happen. I seem to recall someone making a "think this will outlast the '87 show?" question to Peter Laird's blog (or whatever he had in place 10+ years ago) and being told, effectively, that it wasn't likely. The whole Turtlemania phenomenon was a big freaking deal, and everyone involved in the 4Kids show had enough experience with this sort of thing to realize that sort of lightning wasn't likely to strike twice.

but nope, that didn't happen. 2k3 show sunk like the titanic.

It lasted seven seasons and 156 episodes - that's a very long run for a kids' action show in this day and age. It wasn't the phenomenon that the '87 cartoon (and its related merchandising) was, but it was still plenty successful in its own right.

mirage didnt care enough to keep them around cause they werent as successful as the ot, so here comes the big nickelodeon sale.

Total horsecrap. Mirage didn't care? They had direct involvement in the development and production of the show and even contributed to it financially as a partner instead of handing the reigns over to the production and toy companies entirely. If anything, Mirage cared a lot more about the 4Kids show than they did the Fred Wolf cartoon.

And yeah - after the show ran its course and quality dropped off after seven seasons, Peter had his fill of living and breathing Turtles and decided to retire. He's spoken about this plenty of times. You're making a connection that isn't there.

the 2k3 turtles figured "hey, if we're going out, we're bringing the ot turtles down with us!".

You're basing this on nothing but your own half-baked conspiracy theories. Besides, how the hell could they "bring down" a show that ended 13 years earlier?

there really was no reason to resurrect the ot turtles, they could have just took their defeat with good sportsmanship and had their own series final only based on their universe.

They "resurrected" the '87 characters for the same reason they included the Mirage originals and included nods to most of the other iterations in the multiverse sequence - the movie was intended to be a huge finale for that entire era of the franchise. It was a 25th anniversary special - why wouldn't they bring in the most relevant, and diverse, versions of those characters for an event like that?

And again - what "defeat"? The 4Kids series had a very respectable run.

but no, they had to be di*ks and humiliate the ot turtles, krang, shredder, and everything about the ot. i think their whole goal was they wanted to be rembered as the guys who out performed the ot turtles, but they completely flushed their own legacy down the toilet.

Totally delusional, defensive fanboy nonsense. Look, I get that you're very protective and nostalgic about the '87 show, and that's fine, but all of this exists purely in your head.

look at them now, oh wait, they not around anymore hahaha!!!:lol:now who's laughing? all the retro merchandise nick puts out these days is ot stuff, nobody cares about the 2k3 turtles.

Well... Nick has re-aired the first two seasons of the 4Kids show, and released them on iTunes, and has put out a couple of compilation DVDs. So... yeah, they kind of are still around, actually.

they dug their own grave by portraying out beloved ot turtles as complete idiots.

So... they dug their own grave by how they portrayed the '87 Turtles... in a movie that was always intended to be the big finale of their series?

Anyone wanna explain to me how that works?

they wanted to be the cooler more remembered universe of tmnt after the nick takeover, but they failed by insulting the flagship tmnt cartoon, and now they pay the price.

What price? What are you even talking about? You're making a lot of ridiculous, wild assumptions based solely on your own, overly-emotional nostalgia feelings and paranoid delusions.

I don't understand how anyone can justify how badly the OT turtles were treated in Turtles Forever.

I swear, some of you wouldn't be satisfied with this movie unless every other version of the Turtles got on their hands and knees to kiss your precious '87 Turtles' feet for its entire runtime.

Their goofiness was exaggerated slightly for comedic effect, but their personalities were otherwise intact. They repeatedly proved themselves effective fighters. '87 Donnie's "silly" technology saved the day multiple times (if anything, the joke was on how dismissive the 4Kids Turtles were toward them in those cases, and that was even nodded at in the movie). The Mirage Turtles even took similar shots at the 4Kids versions, which was a joke at the expense of Raphael's judgmental side, and showed that "silly" is all a matter of perspective. And the movie ended with both teams showing mutual respect for each other.

If you dudes would pay a little more attention to the details instead of flying into nostalgia-rage at every perceived slight, maybe you'd catch more of this stuff.

[pennydreadful]

the only reason the ot turtles were portrayed they way they were in this film, was out of anger/jealousy. 2k3 in their prime thought they were smooth sailing, hoping to outlast the ot in how long it stays on the air. but nope, that didn't happen. 2k3 show sunk like the titanic. mirage didnt care enough to keep them around cause they werent as successful as the ot, so here comes the big nickelodeon sale. the 2k3 turtles figured "hey, if we're going out, we're bringing the ot turtles down with us!". there really was no reason to resurrect the ot turtles, they could have just took their defeat with good sportsmanship and had their own series final only based on their universe. but no, they had to be di*ks and humiliate the ot turtles, krang, shredder, and everything about the ot. i think their whole goal was they wanted to be rembered as the guys who out performed the ot turtles, but they completely flushed their own legacy down the toilet. look at them now, oh wait, they not around anymore hahaha!!!:lol:now who's laughing? all the retro merchandise nick puts out these days is ot stuff, nobody cares about the 2k3 turtles. they dug their own grave by portraying out beloved ot turtles as complete idiots. they wanted to be the cooler more remembered universe of tmnt after the nick takeover, but they failed by insulting the flagship tmnt cartoon, and now they pay the price.

Is there a reason that you had to necro-post this into a thread that hadn't been touched in a year? You're just repeating everything you already said in the "What version did worse?" thread. Calm the hysterics before you burst something.

[DarkFell]

Unless they were up by Nick/Viacom then it's probably copyright.
Thanks Jester.

[Leo656]

Oh my F*CKING god, this sh*t's really happening. AGAIN. Multiple threads, now.

You're defending the "reputation" and "integrity" of a cartoon show from 30 years ago that was unapologetically aimed at 7-year-old kids. You're mad that another TMNT cartoon took a good-natured jab at them in the name of nostalgic good fun. You're seriously upset that they focused slightly more on the Lesser aspects of Fred Wolf TMNT in the name of showing CONTRAST between the two groups of characters, as well as getting a few chuckles.

You're COMPLETELY missing the point of something you've probably watched more than a few times, all because you're hung up on some perceived, imaginary "injustice" done to a couple of goddamn fictional characters. You're looking at something that was supposed to be a nostalgic love letter to the entire TMNT universe, and instead of taking it for what it's supposed to be, you're all cranky about it, completely by choice. What the sh*t.

People say I'M ****ing cynical and joyless. "Waaaah, they took something that was 75% goofy nonsense and made it look like 95%! My childhood!" This is what happens when you don't have Cracked Magazine around for you little f***ers to read growing up. You don't learn how to relax and take a joke. For Shame.

[CyberCubed]

^ Agreed. This thread has run its course and needs to be locked.

[Leo656]

^ Agreed. This thread has run its course and needs to be locked.
You're late. One more time and you're fired.

[Jester]

I agree with Cybercubed. Locky locky.