'90 Martial Arts Action v.s. 2014 Expectations

[FellowChucker]

This is my biggest selling point on this movie now as an adult. The mere fact it's ninja turtles and has a decent story isn't technically what I'm looking to get out of this film.

The '90 film had great character moments, but after watching it on Blu Ray last night w/ my girl I couldn't help but feel the "NINJA" in TMNT was at times lacking. They did a lot of fights in pitch black, where we don't actually see anything.

Which makes sense given their need for invisibility. Some of Raph's scenes are great in terms of fighting. In the subway, on the rooftop v.s. the entire foot. And the final battle v.s. Shredder has some great moments but beyond that I know they're limited by the suits ... but does anyone else feel we could've got better action scenes?

There is a lot of little goofy moments from the characters with slapstick physical moments instead of pure ninja fighting, bad ass moments. Not that there isn't any, just not near enough.

I mean there is a part in the climatic final show down with Shredder. Each turtle is taking their turns attacking Shredder. Raph goes hard. Looks cool, got beat. Leo attack ... and he just runs, and leaps kantanas first while yelling

"Heeee yahh"

It was a really unintenionally funny, and very corny moment.

I'm hoping, and expecting in 2014 we get much better action. Not limited by the clunky animatronic suits, with CGI ... I've heard we might get ninja action akin to Raid Redemption, but I doubt it. Not near that violent.

So it's a two part question Turtle fans. In retrospect does the '90's film ninja action seem rather lack luster given the material?

And what do you expect out of the new film in terms of ninja action?

[graphic_content]

I remember watching the first film and thinking as a kid, that is was pretty brutal and hardcore. Seeing it now however, I think, man I was easily impressed as a kid.

Honestly, some of the best fights IMO, came with movie 3, particularly when they raided the castle, and Donatello was using his staff, in conjunction with some nice acrobatics. (tried finding a youtube video, no luck)

One of the reasons I am glad they are using mo'cap for this film is because the acting, and action can be seamlessly integrated, and is not reliant on the performance of one person. I've seen footage of the stunt guys playing the turtles, and their martial arts 'tricking', combined with Eastman's description of Raid-like hand-to-hand combat...as a martial artist, and long time Turtle fan, I could not be more excited to FINALLY see, what I 'remembered' the Turtles doing when I saw them as a kid.

[turtlefanforever]

the action scenes in this will be interesting no doubt. lots of explosions and such, but they wont be any better than the other films especially with the technology and budget they will almost certainly underperform.

With the budget for that first film and the lack of mobility in the suits I think it more than exceeded expectations, and was the best it could possibly be. I was not let down in the slightest.

[samxsteal]

I agree THe mocap And there Stunt doubles working on this movie are all great Martial artist that do a crazy amount on acrobats and awesome fighting it should be great and one thing this movie will not lack.

[samxsteal]

the action scenes in this will be interesting no doubt. lots of explosions and such, but they wont be any better than the other films especially with the technology and budget they will almost certainly underperform. The budget for this movie is nearly twice as much as the budget for Rise of the planet of the apes Using ILM one of the best special effects studios, and there using the same technique as Rise of the planet of the apes and avatar.

SO i dont get how anyone can say it will "almost certainly underperform"
That make no sense given the evidence we have.

Also :trolleye::trolleye::trolleye: why does everyone assume this will just be a some stupid movie filled with lots of explosions When in any instance has TMNT been known for large explosions, TF is different its Giant freaking Robot fight of Course there is going to be explosions. and i get everyone thinks MBay is directing this but im seriously doubting it going to be as "Explosive" Heavy as as bays other movies

With the budget for that first film and the lack of mobility in the suits I think it more than exceeded expectations, and was the best it could possibly be. I was not let down in the slightest.
I dont think any one was arguing they were let down. They are just saying with the tech we have know with the large budget we do have along with the people working on this movie, CGI and stunt teams and martial artist that it should be more"ninja" "y" or in the very least more Martial artist "Y" then before,

[graphic_content]

Also :trolleye::trolleye::trolleye: why does everyone assume this will just be a some stupid movie filled with lots of explosions When in any instance has TMNT been known for large explosions, TF is different its Giant freaking Robot fight of Course there is going to be explosions. and i get everyone thinks MBay is directing this but im seriously doubting it going to be as "Explosive" Heavy as as bays other movies

I never understood everyone's hatred towards all the explosions in the TF movies. I agree, Giant Robot Death-matches should almost always end in massive fireworks. Ninjas fighting ninjas, not so much.

[samxsteal]

I never understood everyone's hatred towards all the explosions in the TF movies. I agree, Giant Robot Death-matches should almost always end in massive fireworks. Ninjas fighting ninjas, not so much.I mean I can see some practical Pyrotechnics, But it wont make much since with these Ninja turtle, I could see Shredder fighting in his suit and having sparks everywhere, Maybe if they still had Krang in it seeing some destruction. but not just random explosions all over the movie for no reason,

Exactly. Just so many negative nellies in this piece about the upcoming flick. I think it's a pretty safe assumption to bet we'll get superior action. I mean, for the simple facts it's 2014, golden age of comic book films, WAY bigger budget.
Seriously

[samxsteal]

How could I forget ... Mo Cap + ILM CGI (the best in the biz)

Exactly So pumped lol :tgrin::tgrin::tgrin:

[graphic_content]

Exactly. Just so many negative nellies in this piece about the upcoming flick. So much sand in their undies. I think it's a pretty safe assumption to bet we'll get superior action to any of the 90's films. Even if it falls short of the original's total quality. I mean, for the simple facts it's a) 2014 b) golden age of comic book films c) WAY bigger budget d) Mo cap and ILM CGI

Negative nellies indeed, and that's putting it mildly. People don't seem to appreciate that when properties are reimagined for TV, books, film, etc that is a chance for someone new to put their personal creativity and mark on the turtle-verse as a whole. (Just type ninja turtles in a deviantart search and you'll get exactly what I mean). Now with that said, I'll admit I hated the whole alien-origin that was rumored; that to me just disrespected the source material by thinking they could write a better origin than the creators; beyond that, I love what I have seen, and am hopeful for some really well choreographed fights.

Speaking of which...I really hope they use their weapons. I'm tired of Don and Mikey being the only ones allowed to make contact; I get it, but don't like it.

[samxsteal]

Negative nellies indeed, and that's putting it mildly. People don't seem to appreciate that when properties are reimagined for TV, books, film, etc that is a chance for someone new to put their personal creativity and mark on the turtle-verse as a whole. (Just type ninja turtles in a deviantart search and you'll get exactly what I mean). Now with that said, I'll admit I hated the whole alien-origin that was rumored; that to me just disrespected the source material by thinking they could write a better origin than the creators; beyond that, I love what I have seen, and am hopeful for some really well choreographed fights.

Speaking of which...I really hope they use their weapons. I'm tired of Don and Mikey being the only ones allowed to make contact; I get it, but don't like it.

Seriously agree Fully with this.

ANd i to hope we see some awesome weapon Choreography

[graphic_content]

Seriously agree Fully with this.

ANd i to hope we see some awesome weapon Choreography

One of my favorite parts of the original cartoon was that the foot were robots meaning Leo and Raph had the freedom to cut right through 'em. Not that I expect that kind of blood-letting in this film (nor do I want it) but something BA like precision knife work where he cuts off pieces of armor as an intimidation factor. I'd love that.

[MastahShredder]

I doubt we see Ong Bak type of fighting but there will be some cool stuff.

Aesthetically, when it comes to the combats, I expect some great things. I'm not worried about that.

I'd love if they kept Shredder vs the Turtles as dark as possible. Basically this, but extended.

G5uepwDOEvw

I hope Shredder doesn't use a gun or can barely move with all that armor on. :facepalm:

[Andrew NDB]

And the final battle v.s. Shredder has some great moments but beyond that I know they're limited by the suits ... but does anyone else feel we could've got better action scenes?

Short answer: yes. The fights in the first movie are only somewhat "awesome" when you compare them against the ghastly ones in II and III. And don't really extend much beyond block, block, kick, often with some sight gags or camp in between.

ANd i to hope we see some awesome weapon Choreography

Don't count on it. The Foot in this don't even have ninja weapons, just guns, so the potential for any kind of katana, sai, nunchuk, or bo-staff action the way we should actually see them being used vs. guns is pretty unlikely... unless they're going to be bouncing bullets away with their weapons like Wonder Woman, which would be retarded.

[TurtleMikey]

I'm honestly expecting that they'll come through with their promises of action on par with, or in the vein of, 'The Raid: Redemption'.


At least, in terms of choreography and camera work.


It's unlikely we'll get that much gore and violence.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

I agree THe mocap And there Stunt doubles working on this movie are all great Martial artist that do a crazy amount on acrobats and awesome fighting it should be great and one thing this movie will not lack.

while i am not against the mo cap, it will come down to who is the body fighting for the turtles...and how they can move in those shells and keep it realistic in terms of how the fighting skills are portrayed...personally i hope the actors who voice and portray the turtles are not the ones who will be their fight doubles

again i am not saying it will look bad visually (as in the turtles), just that who ever does the fighting you will be able to tell..its easier and wiser to have a martial artist stand in and do it than teach an actor from scratch to pose certain ways to make it "look good"

air bender anyone?

Ang Lees Hulk?



I never understood everyone's hatred towards all the explosions in the TF movies. I agree, Giant Robot Death-matches should almost always end in massive fireworks. Ninjas fighting ninjas, not so much.

i dont understand it either, are giant robots not supposed to cause collateral damage when battling? especially when the military is involved

[samxsteal]

Short answer: yes. The fights in the first movie are only somewhat "awesome" when you compare them against the ghastly ones in II and III. And don't really extend much beyond block, block, kick, often with some sight gags or camp in between.



Don't count on it. The Foot in this don't even have ninja weapons, just guns, so the potential for any kind of katana, sai, nunchuk, or bo-staff action the way we should actually see them being used vs. guns is pretty unlikely... unless they're going to be bouncing bullets away with their weapons like Wonder Woman, which would be retarded.
I have provent this time and time again people say its not true but they use more then Gun yes at this point there are plenty of picture of the foot with gun from ONE FREAKING SCENE.

And its freaking irritating that people enjoy any evidence :trolleye::trolleye::trolleye:, "oh that no a melee weapon" "legos dont count" "all i see is gun"

CUZ you not freaking looking you've already made up your mind, IMMA LAUGH my freaking ass off once we see atleast one sword

KArai in the lego set has a sword
one of the foot soldiers in the same set has a Sword.
"oh but lego aren't and accurate source to judge any thing"
"BUT OMG these toys look like crap they must absolutely look this way in the movie....."

its bull and hypocritical. Sorry letting off some steam

Trick and haters in 3..................2..................1........... .........

I'm honestly expecting that they'll come through with their promises of action on par with, or in the vein of, 'The Raid: Redemption'.


At least, in terms of choreography and camera work.


It's unlikely we'll get that much gore and violence.

Exactly.

while i am not against the mo cap, it will come down to who is the body fighting for the turtles...and how they can move in those shells and keep it realistic in terms of how the fighting skills are portrayed...personally i hope the actors who voice and portray the turtles are not the ones who will be their fight doubles

again i am not saying it will look bad visually (as in the turtles), just that who ever does the fighting you will be able to tell..its easier and wiser to have a martial artist stand in and do it than teach an actor from scratch to pose certain ways to make it "look good"

air bender anyone?

Ang Lees Hulk?

I doubt they will be wearing the shells for the martial arts Aspects of the Mo Cap, And they have great stunt team check out IMDB there stunt doubles are great martial artists.





i dont understand it either, are giant robots not supposed to cause collateral damage when battling? especially when the military is involved

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

I doubt they will be wearing the shells for the martial arts Aspects of the Mo Cap, And they have great stunt team check out IMDB there stunt doubles are great martial artists.

if they arnt wearing the shells that would mess with the Mo-cap since they would have to put them in after,and that could ruin the animation in terms of proper body movement. you cant just ignore a shell and decide after to make it work

the idea of the Mo-cap suits is to get as realistic movement as possible, so the shell is needed and they should train and fight with them on, instead of realying on graphics later to fix the problem. just like the original Henson suit stunt turtles the stunt mean had to learn to fight inside the suit it was added later

i have been a TMNT cosplayer for 2 years now and learned SO MUCH on how hard it is to move in a shell if you have no idea what you are doing, bending, sitting,posing even turning are all things you have to re learn to make it look natural..just cause its a mocap suit doesnt mean all the goes away..other wise the shell wouldnt be part of the mo cap

great stunt team can mean anything..more than likely that team is for the foot more than the turtles

i am not trying to be a jerk or be like gr you are wrong...but just saying i want to turtles to actually know like they are well trained martial artists...not actors who where given pointers on how to move and pose

[snake]

The action in the first trilogy is honestly not that bad considering how hot and sweaty the actors must've been in those turtle suits. They pulled off some good moves and I respect them for that (And many other reasons)

I expect the new movie to have CGI fights and they won't look as real.

[samxsteal]

if they arnt wearing the shells that would mess with the Mo-cap since they would have to put them in after,and that could ruin the animation in terms of proper body movement. you cant just ignore a shell and decide after to make it work

the idea of the Mo-cap suits is to get as realistic movement as possible, so the shell is needed and they should train and fight with them on, instead of realying on graphics later to fix the problem. just like the original Henson suit stunt turtles the stunt mean had to learn to fight inside the suit it was added later

i have been a TMNT cosplayer for 2 years now and learned SO MUCH on how hard it is to move in a shell if you have no idea what you are doing, bending, sitting,posing even turning are all things you have to re learn to make it look natural..just cause its a mocap suit doesnt mean all the goes away..other wise the shell wouldnt be part of the mo cap

great stunt team can mean anything..more than likely that team is for the foot more than the turtles

i am not trying to be a jerk or be like gr you are wrong...but just saying i want to turtles to actually know like they are well trained martial artists...not actors who where given pointers on how to move and pose

True but i could see them doing the work with smaller shells. because either way its being edited in after the fact and realistically they wouldn't be able to move in any way like a ninja with a full turtle shell.

as for the stunt team im talking specific for the turtle or what has been confirmed,

Matt Emig ... stunt double: Master Splinter
SscJHFKRwtQ
Jim Ford ...stunt double: The Shredder
http://www.jimaford.com/stunts.php
Daniel Graham ...stunt double: Raphael
http://vimeo.com/42869552
Jeremy Marinas ...stunt double:Leonardo/stunt double:Michaelangelo
http://www.digititles.com/other/jeremy-marinas-stunt-demo/videos
Kimmy Suzuki ...stunt double: Minae Noji
yiwoH49qiWE
Don Thai Theerathada ...fight team
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1596656/
Luis Tolentino ...skateboard stunt double: Michelangelo
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2491656/
Jon Valera ...stunt double:Leonardo/stunt double:Michelangelo
80PYDBpkWK8

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

why is the guy doing stunts for Master Splinter 3 times the size of master splinter? who thought that was a great idea?

True but i could see them doing the work with smaller shells. because either way its being edited in after the fact


dude you cant use smaller shells if the entire movie was filmed with bigger costume shells...shells dont just shrink and grow..that isnt how mo cap works...things stay consistent or people will notice

and realistically they wouldn't be able to move in any way like a ninja with a full turtle shell.

and i drect you to the 90's movies..rewatch turtles one and noce some of the moves they do in full turtle.....that leo raph spon...REAL PEOPLE...those guys moved like ninjas because the practiced, there al actually videos of said practices and training...they did each fight scenes twice once with the mask on and once without it off so that they could get a feel of the suit..they werent actors who were told to move certain ways or guys thtown in who were told they could fix it later


there no later


honestly sam i like your enthusiasm but you hurting my views on this film more than helping me...you showing me those stuntment gives me more doubts than i already had

[samxsteal]

why is the guy doing stunts for Master Splinter 3 times the size of master splinter? who thought that was a great idea?
I think you seriously Under estimate the power post production. Gollum Was played by a 5' 8" actor whats you point.


dude you cant use smaller shells if the entire movie was filmed with bigger costume shells...shells dont just shrink and grow..that isnt how mo cap works...things stay consistent or people will notice
Not true Planet of the ape uses stilts when walking as an ape but dont use them when talking and other scenes, the shells are just a refference for what they will eventually animate they could very well adjust size, shape, placement, color, texture, etc etc etc. Using a smaller shell would keep the reference point while allow freer movement and stunts.




and i drect you to the 90's movies..rewatch turtles one and noce some of the moves they do in full turtle.....that leo raph spon...REAL PEOPLE...those guys moved like ninjas because the practiced, there al actually videos of said practices and training...they did each fight scenes twice once with the mask on and once without it off so that they could get a feel of the suit..they werent actors who were told to move certain ways or guys thtown in who were told they could fix it later
But they also had segmented shells to allow greater movement in a lot of scenes

These stunt double are the exact same thing except that there all being done in Mo Cap just as avatar and Planet of the apes was, There is no difference to there abilities except that they using CGI verse Practical.


honestly sam i like your enthusiasm but you hurting my views on this film more than helping me...you showing me those stuntment gives me more doubts than i already had
How You want great martial artist they are great martial artist, you want a great stunt team we have a great stunt team don't see a problem in any way shape or forum, are you upset with the Main actors not doing the stunts, well that how most of these movies are done. Im sure some of the actors do some of their own stunts but for the extreme acrobatic stuff that ninja's do they will need someone with the skills and the got great people to do just that.

[MastahShredder]

Bets on if Raph does a Hulk-Smash? :tconfuse:

[samxsteal]

Bets on if Raph does a Hulk-Smash? :tconfuse:

his stunt double does Ong bak Style Knee martial arts and is a beast

[chrisdude]

Can we stop acting like the live-action movie fights were any better than the ones in 3 Ninjas?

Yes, they did wonderful things with what they had, and we all respect that. But the work shown in those stunt/martial arts videos is miles beyond what anyone could do in those 90's suits. It just is.

[pdizzle]

Can we stop acting like the live-action movie fights were any better than the ones in 3 Ninjas?

Yes, they did wonderful things with what they had, and we all respect that. But the work shown in those stunt/martial arts videos is miles beyond what anyone could do in those 90's suits. It just is.

This.......this..........^^^^^^^^^

[samxsteal]

Can we stop acting like the live-action movie fights were any better than the ones in 3 Ninjas?

Yes, they did wonderful things with what they had, and we all respect that. But the work shown in those stunt/martial arts videos is miles beyond what anyone could do in those 90's suits. It just is.

Thank you. And i love 3 ninjas...... except that mountain one that was stupid. Also Surf Ninjas hehehe AWESOME

[snake]

Thank you. And i love 3 ninjas...... except that mountain one that was stupid. Also Surf Ninjas hehehe AWESOME

I have a love/hate relationship with it, me and my friend watch it occasionally to make fun of it. We do that with any movie, even if it's ones we like.

[Anton Chigurh]

I doubt we see Ong Bak type of fighting but there will be some cool stuff.

Aesthetically, when it comes to the combats, I expect some great things. I'm not worried about that.

I'd love if they kept Shredder vs the Turtles as dark as possible. Basically this, but extended.

G5uepwDOEvw

I hope Shredder doesn't use a gun or can barely move with all that armor on. :facepalm:

dam I forgot have amazing the soundtrack to that film was:tgrin:

[MastahShredder]

dam I forgot have amazing the soundtrack to that film was:tgrin:

Here you go.

RQH-Vp8BOWM

[Candy Kappa]

why is the guy doing stunts for Master Splinter 3 times the size of master splinter? who thought that was a great idea?

Mo-capping the stunt double, they can add the animation into the skeletal rig of the Splinter 3D model. So it's not a hard task, although you can differentiate the animation of a person from the animation of another person.

Ie, a male 3D model using animation from a female mo-cap actor will make the models move unnatural and uncanny. This could be present when mixing the animation from a tall proportionate person vs. a disproportionate short person. Splinter might move strange in "fight mode", but, a animator worth their salt, would just slap a mo-cap animation onto a rig and call it a day. You have to hand animate things so they match up and clean up jarring motion that can be disturbed by various things, like not sufficient data through a certain movement of the mo-cap animation.

One of the reasons Beowulf have several scenes where the animation looks off, is because of lack off clean-up and polish stage. The mo-cap was left mostly unworked.

Although the Gollum example from Sam isn't a very good example since Gollum, with a few anatomical changes, still is pretty proportionate and is just scaled down for size when dealing humans, such things would be all that extremely necessary when interacting with Demi-Human races of similar height as Gollum is, Hobbits for example. With Splinter, we have a 3D model that probably models after Woodburn's own anatomical proportions, which then will have animation from a tall proportionate stunt double.

But, there won't be any problems with that. If Cumberbatch's face can animate a Dragon snout, a tall person can be scaled down, it's all about key points.

[Anton Chigurh]

Here you go.

RQH-Vp8BOWM

nice, that shredder is the best its going to get for that specific character.

[Walkabout]

Just wait till you hear the Linkin Park song he makes an entrance to in this new movie :tlol:

[snake]

Just wait till you hear the Linkin Park song he makes an entrance to in this new movie :tlol:

You shred my life to biiiiiiiiiiiiiits

[MastahShredder]

I wouldn't put it past these idiots to have him make a jet pack or something ridiculous.

[Walkabout]

You shred my life to biiiiiiiiiiiiiits

I need a rolling around laughing smiley right here :lol:

[snake]

I need a rolling around laughing smiley right here :lol:

Well, we have this dude

:rolling:

[chrisdude]

Well, we have this dude

:rolling:That's more like a "fresh sheets" smiley. :lol:

[Sighphi]

The fighting is probably going to be a lot of close shots with a bunch of shaky cam cause that's saves money and apparently Hollywood likes this style. When was the last time any big budget Hollywood action flick actually had action scenes where you could actually see what was going on in the fight, the last Matrix movie?

BTW, i find it strange that half of those stun demos have people just doing a whole mess of flips. What is that supposed to show besides you doing flips? Maybe if there is some crazy monkey style that works but outside of that what's all the flipping for?

[TigerClaw]

The fighting is probably going to be a lot of close shots with a bunch of shaky cam cause that's saves money and apparently Hollywood likes this style. When was the last time any big budget Hollywood action flick actually had action scenes where you could actually see what was going on in the fight, the last Matrix movie?

BTW, i find it strange that half of those stun demos have people just doing a whole mess of flips. What is that supposed to show besides you doing flips? Maybe if there is some crazy monkey style that works but outside of that what's all the flipping for?
I dont think the Shaky Cam stuff is to save money, the reason why they do that, is to make the action feel more real, Like if somebody was there actually filming everything that's going on and trying to get it on camera. So its a more visceral experience. Since the action is gonna be similar to the Raid Redemption, the action in that film felt very visceral and real, and also fast.

[Sighphi]

I dont think the Shaky Cam stuff is to save money, the reason why they do that, is to make the action feel more real, Like if somebody was there actually filming everything that's going on and trying to get it on camera. So its a more visceral experience. Since the action is gonna be similar to the Raid Redemption, the action in that film felt very visceral and real, and also fast.

The only thing i experience from that is dizziness cause i cant focus on anything because everything shaking and barely watchable.

[samxsteal]

The fighting is probably going to be a lot of close shots with a bunch of shaky cam cause that's saves money and apparently Hollywood likes this style. When was the last time any big budget Hollywood action flick actually had action scenes where you could actually see what was going on in the fight, the last Matrix movie?

BTW, i find it strange that half of those stun demos have people just doing a whole mess of flips. What is that supposed to show besides you doing flips? Maybe if there is some crazy monkey style that works but outside of that what's all the flipping for?
if you know martial art they are often doing real kicks while doing alot of the flipping in really practice there would be people with boards for them to break and target, but doing a basic demo, they just do a kata without people. Also there are several movie that still show alot of action.