TMNT Incarnation with the Best Portrayal of Women/Female Characters?

[Rooish]

This does not really get in the way of my enjoyment of TMNT and certainly didn't when I was a kid, but I'm wondering what people think about TMNT's portrayal of women and female characters. I don't necessarily mean as a property as a whole, but I am interested in how people think the incarnations/versions of TMNT compare in their portrayal of women. Do you think female characters are poorly portrayed, either by having them be underrepresented, or overly sexualized/turned into romantic interests, or occupying positions that are lower in power than the men? Do you have criteria for what makes for a good portrayal of women in a story?

Here's my opinion: Mirage volumes 1 and 2 had April, Renet and Karai as its female characters. It was nice that April was presented so early, but I don't think she had a very good personality. She needed protection and was very soft-hearted, and she quickly got overshadowed by Casey, especially in Shades of Grey and City at War. I don't think that soft-hearted is bad, but it is stereotypical to make the only female character into the gentle mom-like character. Also she was paired with Casey, who was a drunk and violent guy (not against her, but she still should have been wary). Then Renet was introduced, who was a big-busted flake (not that there is anything wrong with big boobs, but they also created a stereotypical bimbo). I think that Karai was really awesome in the comics and turned things around a bit.

OT: Irma was boy-obsessed and kind of pathetic. April was very strong-willed and ruthless, but still a damsel in distress. I think she may have been one of the stronger personalities of April, but she often cared more about a story than about her friends.

Movies: I'm on the fence. I think the first movie April was much better than the later Aprils. I guess I don't really like April as a den mom when she's the only woman character. I am cool with her being nice and caring though. I think the third movie had more women but to be honest I have no memory of it.

Archie: I think that it's frustrating that Ninjara was like one of the only female characters and also a girlfriend. However it was cool that she dumped Raph for being selfish and brooding.

Next Mutation: A female Turtle was introduced, with breasts because reptiles obviously have breasts, and she was being set up to be a romantic interest for the others by some lame excuse that the Turtles aren't blood related. Was the bad guy a woman though? How was she portrayed? I can't watch the show.

Image: Terrible portrayal of women, the Turtles themselves were objectifying dude bros, with Mikey making out with any woman in sight and bragging about his sexual prowess, Raph wanting to go to a strip club, etc. Female characters included April, who was still dealing with drunk violent Casey and who was still the typical going-along-with-the-craziness nurturing type, Pimiko who wore no clothes for no ****ing reason, Horridus who was an idiot... I'm probably forgetting people. Women being sexual isn't a problem, but it being gratuitous is, and I didn't like the "typical teenager" portrayal of the Turtles.

2003: I think that this show had quite a few female characters, although their portrayal was on the fence. It was nice that most of them (Angel, Karai) were not romantic interests. I think this was one of the better Aprils if not the best, and she had a lot of character development, although her attraction to Casey, who was often portrayed as very stupid, was unconvincing. I found Karai to be very likeable and engaging. However I've seen many people call her a b***h and she got less smart and more hysterical as it went.

2007 movie: Not really enough time for the women to develop. April was pretty cool and inexplicably an amazing ninja.

Nick: I think April is cool, but I hate her immediate sexualization and Don's constant creeping of her. I also don't like that Splinter, who is training her, goes easier on her than the boys. She is having a convincing development of her ninja skills, and her special Krang powers are cool, but she's often overlooked for several episodes in a row. Also I don't like how Casey keeps deciding they are on a date, and after protesting she kind of gives in. I think Karai is the best version of Karai ever, but she was also immediately sexualized by Leo (although he was much more respectful).

IDW: This series has many female characters, which is great. Alopex and Koya started as tough scrappy female characters who were not particularly feminine. I have no problem with having "girly" female characters, but I like to see a variety. I'm not sold on Alopex's cute Ross Campbell look and her budding whatever with Raph, though. April in IDW is bland, as is Karai, but they both are resourceful and have varying skills and roles. April even saved the day when the Turtles fought Bebop and Rocksteady. I think this series is the most enlightened about women.

[snake]

Best? Probably IDW or 2003.

[Cipher]

I've thought quite a bit about this.

I'd say probably IDW, but even then, it's not stellar. We don't have a really strong independent female character yet either. April's in the background quite a bit (and with less of a raison d'etre than I feel even Mirage's had), and Alopex, Karai, Kitsune and Koya have all spent most of their run as underlings (though I expect that might change).

2003 was ... okay. I don't feel its characters ended up being used overly well, but it did good by its April, and threw in strong female characters when it could.

Mirage I think gets a bit too much flack. Yes, its April is weaker, but I think she's human and interesting. I love her "City at War" arc. On the other hand, it's pretty much just her, Karai (who is excellent) and later Shadow of note. Underrepresented, I suppose, but I like all of them as characters.

Adventures is woefully lacking in female characters, and as you pointed out, Ninjara is there to be a girlfriend. However, it also gave the Future Turtles several female understudies and was the first to give us a really strong April (as both a reporter and, later, under Splinter's tutleage as a ninja). Overall a pretty big sausage-fest, though.

I guess I'd say IDW followed by Mirage, but I think all of them could stand to be a bit better. I do understand the difficulty of hitting a good gender balance when the main setup (the four turtles, Splinter and Shredder) requires at least six focal males, though.

Next Mutation: A female Turtle was introduced, with breasts because reptiles obviously have breasts, and she was being set up to be a romantic interest for the others by some lame excuse that the Turtles aren't blood related. Was the bad guy a woman though? How was she portrayed? I can't watch the show.
Vam Mi (was that her name)?

Yeah, don't let her fool you into thinking this show was any good with women. It's not. Turtle breasts and pony-tail bandana tell you everything you need to know.

[CyberCubed]

April is strong-willed in every incarnation. Even in the OT where she gets captured in over half the episodes she's shown to be basically fearless and does help the Turtles out many times when she can.

April never backed down to any of the villains in the OT, even if she couldn't fight back herself.

[Sewer Sirens Podcast]

Very interesting topic...I'm looking forward to the future discussion and answers in this thread.

Which incarnation do I think has had the best portrayal of women? Hm, I don't know. I can't exactly say I've gone through the different versions with this subject going through my mind. But Mirage did have a lot of 'sex appeal' thrown in there, especially as Renet.

I think IDW has a pretty good portrayal of women (so far, from what I have read [just read issue 25]). April is smart and important to the story, and Angel goes against the stereotypical damsel in distress / 'leave fighting for the dudes' girl. Then we get Alopex, who, after her micro, we are starting to see more of her personality. She's loyal, yet, raged and passionate about her past and who she is. Then we have Karai, who ASSEMBLED and TRAINED basically the whole Foot Clan before the arrival of Shredder (Karai micro)! That's pretty sweet. So probably IDW (except I don't think the 2003 series had a bad portrayal either).

[RaphAndDonnie]

I can't speak for any of the comics with the exception of IDW and even there I have to agree with Cipher that it's not stellar. Out of the cartoons I would say 2k3. April was strong, independent, knew how to fight and was a scientist. I don't even care that she had a romantic relationship with Casey. Karai was ok as well.

The OT, Next Mutation and Nick all make me cringe slightly, especially The Next Mutation. I'm thankful that Venus at least had enough class to turn down the human guy that started hitting on her in one episode. :roll:

[blindturtle02]

This is a tough decision. I like both the 2012 and 2k3 females. Karai is on my mind at the moment since I'm watching episodes featuring her in both series. I like 2012 Karai a bit better than 2k3 because so far, she's seemed more independent. She's not blindly following Shredder as much as the 2k3 version. This new Karai appears to think for herself. She doesn't hesitate to admonish Shredder whenever she feels he isn't thinking clearly EG Enemy of My Enemy. When I see her doing things like this, I often wonder what kind of a woman 2012 Tang Shen was. Bet she was one terrific wife and she probably would have made an excellent mom.

2k3 Karai is still one of my favorite characters. It was very difficult for her to stand up to her father, but she found the strength to do so more than once. She reminds me of a few folks I've known over the years. If you've ever had friends who's parents have treated them like human garbage, you know the types I mean. They want to stand up for themselves and change things, and you're rooting for them to do it, but the decision is of course up to them. Utrom Shredder knows Karai's got this strong sense of loyalty and you bet your bottom dollar he'll use it against her, like other crummy parents I've seen. I think her greatest moment was at the end of Turtles Forever. Although I wonder if she'll ever really be free of his influence. Seems rather difficult for her to make decisions on her own, but then, I guess she's used to simply following orders. It'd probably take a lifetime to break that type of conditioning. Just the willingness to do so signifies great strength of character, in my opinion.

[Shark_Blade]

OP: How the hell is 2k12 April sexualized? It's not like she has a nude shower scene or anything.


Anyway, I'm pretty much okay with how the females are portrayed in TMNT. At the moment I'd say the best ones are OT April and OT Irma, having watched the dvds recently. They're witty, funny, independent and won't stop at anything to get what they want (April for her news scoop, and Irma for a man lol).

[blindturtle02]

I really liked OT April and Irma too. Both women certainly were driven. Loved April's low tolerance for Vernon's antics. The news business is competitive as well as dangerous, so both April and Irma had their work cut out for them. One of my favorite OT April lines occurs somewhere in the 5 part pilot. She's getting what I'm guessing to be some very profane language from someone on the other end of a phone call and responds with,"Oh yeah? You too!" Was that in Shredder Is Splintered? Anyone know? Pretty edgy bit for a then 80's kids' show. Glad they snuck that in there.

[Jester]

But...Archie had (Aside from April and Ninjara as main female protagonists):
Oyuki Mashimi (http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Oyuki_Mashimi), Juntarra (Jaguar's Mom) (http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Juntarra), Cherubae/Mary Bones (http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Cherubae), Maligna (http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Maligna), Golani (http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Golani), April's great grand daughter Nobuko (http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Nobuko), and Azrael (http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Azrael)...and those are just the ones that appear in multiple issues.

EDIT: And I also forgot Candy Fine and Mezcaal...but girlfriends/wives.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I think the best one so far seems to be IDW, with 2K3 second, though as blindturtle said, I'd rank the OT up there, as well. Even there, April would often use her wits to help out, or provide crucial information for the turtles. And Irma was more than a man-hungry comic-relief. Several times she was shown doing things on her own, or helping the green guys with their problems. (Donatello's Degree comes to mind!) And she was tough and spunky in her own right- she even tried to be a superhero when she accidentally gained powers.

[Cipher]

But...Archie had (Aside from April and Ninjara as main female protagonists):
Oyuki Mashimi (http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Oyuki_Mashimi), Juntarra (Jaguar's Mom) (http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Juntarra), Cherubae/Mary Bones (http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Cherubae), Maligna (http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Maligna), Golani (http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Golani), April's great grand daughter Nobuko (http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Nobuko), and Azrael (http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Azrael)...and those are just the ones that appear in multiple issues.

EDIT: And I also forgot Candy Fine and Mezcaal...but girlfriends/wives.
Oh, yeah. You know, the other day when I was thinking about this, I'd remembered Adventures coming up a lot better than I did when writing my post here. I'd forgotten about Cherubae, Golani, etc. Even Maligna as a big bad. In a way, that's even better than IDW, with the number of important and wholly independent women. And again, its April kicks ass.

The thing that still seems off about it, though, is how few of those women are actually integrated into the regular cast. They couldn't even slip a female mutant onto the Mutanimals for some reason. And, come to think of it, for all the one-off male mutants, are there any women ones in the entire series, save for Ninjara and Mezcaal?

[Andrew NDB]

Archie: I think that it's frustrating that Ninjara was like one of the only female characters and also a girlfriend. However it was cool that she dumped Raph for being selfish and brooding.

Why encapsulate Archie by just Ninjara? What about the most independent, kick-assiest April we've ever seen, who even garnered herself a couple of standalone mini-series (the first and only time in any universe)?

[blindturtle02]

Cherubae! I forgot about the Fight For The Turnstone bookbased on the Archies my 4th grade teacher brailled out for me back in the day. Yeah Cherubae was quite an interesting character. Kept waiting for her to show up in the OT at some point. Thanks for the memories, Jester. Been ages since I thought of her.(Always wished Playmates made Krang's ship Skullbuzzer, but that's a thread for another day.)

[Tazi]

What counts as the best portrayal? The one the most close to real life persons? Or how well the women represented overall?

Mirage dealt with some of the more serious irl women issues, while IDW has the highest number of dominant female characters. Oh, and I definitely wouldn't call Kitsune an underling, she had a huge role in Utroms'/Foot Clan's past, and she basically won the underground war for Shredder in City Fall (by controlling Leo).

About Ninjara, I think she was definitely more then just a random girlfriend without personality traits.

[Rooish]

Hmm, well, I must admit I have only read a few issues of Archie. Good to know that April and Ninjara were very well-developed in it. :)

Also, I totally forgot Shadow, Robyn, etc. A bit more female representation!

[BabyTurtles]

I think each version has it's pros and cons in the ladies department....

for me though...it comes down to April....and 4kids April was the best to me ^_^
smart, independent, and caring~ (and not a bad fighter)

[Raphtastic]

This is an interesting discussion, because it's something I haven't really examined closely. (Possibly because I haven't wanted to.) I like Mirage April a lot during Leonardo 1 through the North Hampton arc (she really starts to become a legitimate character at that point, with some development, rather than just a nice, smart woman along for the ride) and Shades of Gray/City at War. Karai is also pretty badass. But I do feel that there could've been more character depth and development for both and April's sister, Robyn, is strange in that she just pops up and disappears. And Renet is, well...She's comical, but she's a bimbo cliche and, in order to really work for me, would need some serious growth.

I appreciated 2K3 ' s effort to include more female characters--Joy (right? blond chick that Raph seemed to like), Jhana, Angel, Sidney. I loved that they included Karai and developed her as a major character with some moral complexity rather than a one note evildoers or some kind of exotic assassin or something. Aside from April's jungle girl fighting abilities (fun episode, but it seemed to come out of nowhere and, given her intelligence, niceness, etc, it seems odd that she learned that fast...but I like an April that eventually learns to fight), I really love 2K3 April. I don't understand April and Casey in 2K3. He's just such an immature dope. He has a good heart and I love his friendship with Mike and Raph, but they seem to be together mainly just because no one else knows about all the shenanigans they're involved in thanks to palling around with mutant turtles. (Mirage Casey and April, too. Casey in Mirage drinks a lot and is violent and verges on out of control at times. It's part of what makes his redemption arc with Gabrielle so moving. I love his character, but his character just screams Red Flag! Bad Boyfriend! a lot of the time. Movie 1 April and Casey, I like. Casey is unmannered, but warm and charming.)

It's been awhile since I watched the OT, but while I liked April's sass and ambition and Irma ' s wackiness, I never felt like they were as interesting when I was younger. I couldn't see myself wanting to be them. April was just a bit too damsel-y. Irma was too boy crazy. I liked Lotus and Mona Lisa, though. Can't comment on Archie, as I never had the chance to read it. I deny the existence of Next Mutation. *shudders* 2007 April and Karai are part of what got me excited about the franchise again. (I was just happy to see Karai in anything, since I missed 2K3 while it was on the air and, at that time, had no idea she was involved.) I can see the argument that April is too good at too many things in the 2007 movieverse, but I think she just needed more screen time to give us a flaw or 2. I loved the idea that she'd trained long and hard enough to hold her own in combat.

I can't say how Nick is going to shake out in the end, but I really like the younger April and Karai. April is stubborn. She has a temper. She desperately wants to prove herself and be useful. She's training, but isn't a perfect fighter yet. I hope they are judicious with her power development, but I really like where she's going. I don't like Casey ' s creepy "we're on a date" thing, but she seems to try to set him straight. Don spying on April was also on that same icky line, but otherwise his unrequited crush doesn't bother me. (I remember young love like that...actually, the object of my last, long unrequited teenage crush married me last year. We were friends for a long time, dated other people, but I always knew we'd be great together and we totally are!) Karai is also a lot of fun. She's playful, ruthless, troubled and rebellious. The twist with her being Splinter ' s daughter is great and I can't wait to see where her character goes as she has to face the truth about her "father." I'm intrigued by this version of Irma and really want to see more of her. I want her to get nosey about what April and Casey are always up to.

[Jephael]

April is strong-willed in every incarnation. Even in the OT where she gets captured in over half the episodes she's shown to be basically fearless and does help the Turtles out many times when she can.

April never backed down to any of the villains in the OT, even if she couldn't fight back herself.

Maybe, but she sure liked to scream like she was getting chased by Jason Voorhees!

[The Big Bad]

From worst to best least objectionable.

Nick: The absolute worst, and enumerating the show's many sins would take over the thread. Here's a good primer (http://nymonsters.wordpress.com/2013/08/08/looking-back-tmnt-2012-season-1-part-2-tmnts-women-problem/), and this is without counting all the terrible stuff that's happened in season 2.

Image: This deserves to be last, just for the over misogyny of that first arc. The only reason why it's not is because as something aimed at children, the Nick toon has greater power and thus greater responsibility.

Fred Wolf: One of the reasons why Mona Lisa caught on is because she's the only character in the series that isn't utterly objectionable in some manner. She appears in only one episode, which says all that needs to be said.

Films: How many sins can be made up for by Judith Hoag's April? Quite a lot, actually. But not enough to forgive the fact that she's the only character of note in the first film, and that Karai in the fourth manages to be inoffensive at best.

IDW: With the amount of new female characters they've introduced in such a relatively short time, and their lack of any major missteps--outside the one where every male member of the Hamato family gets to live again, while the only female member gets to be a ghost that only appears to provide morale boosts to those male characters--I feel that I should feel more positively towards their efforts than I actually do. And yet, it's hard to muster any enthusiasm at all for these characters.

Mirage: Starts out dismal, gets somewhat better beginning with "City at War", but then takes a dip. Post 2001, the series gets better at introducing new female characters, but fails at consistently doing interesting things with them. And that's Mirage in a nutshell: unrealized potential, and underutilized characters.


Archie: If we were talking about forests vs. trees, Archie would be a dismal forest with a couple of really lovely trees (the films are lovely trees with no forest at all). I love this version of April, and how she gets two be awesome and used and active and to have a best friend who's just as awesome, and how she eventually gets to have her own world. "The Angel of Times Square", as clunky as it is, because it's its very own thing and fits April to a "T".

Once you go outside that, things become less enchanting. Oyuki is good. Maligna and the Dreamland crowd are interesting, and could become awesome with the right story. But there's little here in the way of characters I wish were better explored.

4Kids: The 2003 series, on the other hand, gives us the best forest, even if the individual trees, upon closer inspection, are somewhat charred. The series is problematic in lots of places, and yet, it does feel like the writers are trying more and are succeeding more often than any of the other series. It's by no means ideal--maybe not even good--but it is better.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

I would say that 2k3 had the best portrayal of women.

[ticktack]

Talking about crushes turtles do not necessarily note the beauty, they are one way or another are limited with them to choose a couple(between humans >_>) and hardly a human may ever choose them (:trolleye:) so also it may be hard for them to put some level of quality about one you can fell in love. Well although it isn't wrong with paying attention to qualities of one's way of thinking, awareness, intellect, toughness, treatment, externality etc.
You were talking about sexualisation and a love interest as in a same wave so I brought up variousities. :)
Does Nick turtleboys see the beauty of look with their crushes? idk?. They'll eventually will look for a wider part of a picture.? :D

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

I think Archie April might be the best individual female character, although I haven't watched enough of the 4Kids series to judge that April much.

Maybe I'm just ignorant of how to better the portrayal of women in fiction, but I don't see how a female character being a love interest is a bad thing like in the original post, as long as that isn't all she is.

I'd love to see more IDW stories from April's POV. Maybe a mini-series like Archie had.

[Kanon]

I would say IDW, but I just read issue 1-8 and the first 4 micro series so far.