Do you think the show is fat-shaming some of the characters?

[Papenbrook]

Based on the treatment of overweight characters, such as Victor, Timothy , or Martin , do you think the show is treating overweight characters badly?

[Powder]

Can Tumblr just leave this show alone?

[pennydreadful]

... I've gotta be honest, I hadn't picked up on any vibes of that nature. :ohwell:

[CyberCubed]

What the hell is, "fat-shaming?"

Is this some bizarre underground weebo tumblr/deviantart/livejournal/4chan kind of term?

[Ninjinister]

Jesus Christ. :trolleye:

[Papenbrook]

The term "fat-shaming" means to ridicule or discriminate against someone who is overweight, obese, plus-size, etc.

I am sorry if you didn't understand.

[Cure]

Can Tumblr just leave this show alone?

Man, I wish.

[RaphAndDonnie]

No, not in the least.

[CyberCubed]

Truly the worst part of the Nick show isn't the show itself, its that its attracted the anime/tumblr crowd applying TVtropes and shipping to a show that barely has any.

I'm glad in the 2k3 days and the 80's cartoon days we didn't have to deal with this.

[The Stryker]

Shut up and eat another pop-tart.

[Leo656]

^^ I popped. :lol:

[xChri5x]

http://i.imgur.com/NOIv2YT.jpg

Tumblr in a nutshell

[Leo656]

I don't even know what the hell Tumblr is, but I know you people consistently amuse the hell out of me. :lol:

[Midnight Mutant]

What? No!

Timothy was treated the way he was because he was a lazy idiot. If you recall when he was first introduced by talking smack to the purple dragons the turtles thought he was awesome. They didn't have that 'oh it's a fat guy who is going to suck because he's overweight' and the whole rest of the episode, Tim was a liability, lazy, clueless, over eager and well a doofus. So of course they were going to be annoyed with him. It has nothing to do with him being treated badly for being overweight.

I'm sure his design was chubby because he was suppose to be really lazy and unmotivated to better himself. I don't think the show thought 'Fat people are lazy' but more like 'if you're lazy, you're probably going to get fat'

That's life.

People need to stop being so sensitive or politically correct. Not everything is out to get them.

This reminds me of when someone was saying the show was racist because all of the black people were thieves. (Mainly aimed at Zeck because of the way he talked) Yet, it would be fine if white people were thieves or I don't know...a Japanese guy right? It's the people that are screaming racism or shaming that are fueling the stereotypes more than the show is.

This idea of fat shaming is as stupid as freaking out over a commercial that says ''Go outside and play kids! Get in shape! Stay in shape, it's healthy for you!" and crying 'this is making fat kids feel bad that they can't go outside and play like all the thin kids in the commercial! They might have asthma or something and can't do what the commercial says to do and it makes them feel ashamed!!111'

No. Stop it.

[Konchadunga]

I really don't give a damn if it is. I am glad society looks down on a condition that is actually within most people's control and is unhealthy. Of course you shouldn't shame somebody for being born with a hunch back or a huge unsightly chin, but if they're fat, it's on them to fix that, because they can. Timothy is fat specifically because he's a loser who doesn't want to do any work, and that's a perfectly fine line of logic.

[latmat]

Never even crossed my mind once, and I am a fat dude. I would pick up on that if it was offensive I'd like to think.


Sir Malachi/Martin Milton was a fat kid if I remember correctly and I think they presented him as a nice character by the end.

I actually wish they'd bring him back in the future his mutant abilities could really come in handy against the turtles enemies. He'd be an awesome ally for them. He is a cool character with lots of potential.

The fat slobbish guy who stole the phone was probably the most offensive but that was because he was a low life. I suppose they could have made him a skinny lowlife but hey why not use a fat guy, lots of fat guys in the world. One might say it would be prejudice to have no fat characters lol...

[Midnight Mutant]

Never even crossed my mind once, and I am a fat dude. I would pick up on that if it was offensive I'd like to think.


Sir Malachi/Martin Milton was a fat kid if I remember correctly and I think they presented him as a nice character by the end.

I actually wish they'd bring him back in the future his mutant abilities could really come in handy against the turtles enemies. He'd be an awesome ally for them. He is a cool character with lots of potential.

The fat slobbish guy who stole the phone was probably the most offensive but that was because he was a low life. I suppose they could have made him a skinny lowlife but hey why not use a fat guy, lots of fat guys in the world. One might say it would be prejudice to have no fat characters lol... I think they made him fat because he was suppose to be a lazy slob who sits at home in front of the T.V. all the time. Which will make you fat. He dressed that way and had the attitude of 'I'm too lazy to get up and make myself successful so I'm going to take advantage of any quick way to get rich'

[Candy Kappa]

There's not been any fat-shaming in the show.

[pennydreadful]

Personally, I'm of the view that it's what's inside that counts. :ohwell: I think you can be big and be healthy, just as you can be skinny and unhealthy. I think society's gotten a bit shallow with the obsession with body weight. It's kind of depressing, tbh.

Not wanting to start an argument or anything... but I'm sure that we have members on these boards who are all shapes and sizes. Real beauty comes from within, and a person's worth isn't determined by an arbirtary number on a scale.

There are probably some people on here who are also starting to think that I was a Care Bear in a past life... :lol:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-E5ui1wrKKEk/Tw2lfbFusZI/AAAAAAAACJM/L8rRbVeqOd0/s1600/2679_6c6c.jpg

[BubblyShell22]

I don't even know what the hell Tumblr is, but I know you people consistently amuse the hell out of me. :lol:

Tumblr is a blog site, Leo, and there are lot of people who have Tumblrs.

As for fat shaming, this show isn't doing any of that. Vic was a lazy slob who took advantage of the Turtles to try and get rich and only ended up getting mutated, Timothy was a kid who just wanted to be a hero and ended up getting mutated due to his stupidity, and Martin was a guy who was innocently feeding the sparrows in his yard when he got mutated. People really need to stop acting like this show is doing things that it clearly isn't doing.

[CyberCubed]

tumblr is like the new version of livejournal. It's why nobody uses livejournal anymore.

[Discogod]

Truly the worst part of the Nick show isn't the show itself, its that its attracted the anime/tumblr crowd applying TVtropes and shipping to a show that barely has any.

I'm glad in the 2k3 days and the 80's cartoon days we didn't have to deal with this.

Yeah, 'cause god forbid the show attracts new fans to the franchise...:roll:

Cubed, YOU are representative of everything that is wrong with TMNT fandom. You want everything to fit into your extremely narrow definition of what TMNT should be, and sh*t all over anything that doesn't fit and anyone that doesn't agree.

If you're as crapulent in real life as you are online, I'm betting you're one very lonely, bitter individual...

[saintsaucey]

Wow dude that was harsh.

[BoxxHarry]

If the show was really fat-shaming, then I think more people than PC nitpickers would have noticed. This is actually the first time I've ever heard that claim, and I hang around the TMNT fandom on tumblr. The most complaining I've seen from them is how they're apparently "sexualising" April. Fat-shaming is a first.

Vic and Tim were just lazy and stupid, no time were they called "fat" as an insult, it was just character design. Martin wasn't really bad in his episode, he was just a kid who didn't know better.

[Orochi]

Irma is considered to be on the chubby side, in no way shape or form has she ever been shown as anything but a good friend to April. Timothy wasn't exactly bad, just stupid and Sir Malachi turned good in the end. Slash is also made to look fat in his mutant form, but again, he turned good as well. There's no real fat shaming in this show.

[Coola Yagami]

Wow dude that was harsh.

It does sound like it's true though. I wonder if Cubed ever goes outside. It seems he gets all his thought on how society world based on tv and movies. He probably orders all his tmnt stuff online just so he doesn't have to step outside.

[snake]

Why does this incarnation attract so many SJW's and feminists/tumblr users? It's fine if they join in on the fandom, but claiming the show is "fat shaming" is stupid.

[Netkeeper]

tumblr is like the new version of livejournal. It's why nobody uses livejournal anymore.
You're actually right about that! I never used livejournal myself, though. Site was too whiny even for me. :V

Yeah, 'cause god forbid the show attracts new fans to the franchise...:roll:

Cubed, YOU are representative of everything that is wrong with TMNT fandom. You want everything to fit into your extremely narrow definition of what TMNT should be, and sh*t all over anything that doesn't fit and anyone that doesn't agree.

If you're as crapulent in real life as you are online, I'm betting you're one very lonely, bitter individual...
Wow, you are MAD at one particular forum user. I hope people on this forum get this mad at me, this is hilarious.

You're an inspiration to me, Cubed.

EDIT: Aaaand to be on-topic this show isn't fat-shaming lmfao OP is just trying to get SJW brownie points

[Garfield]

http://i.imgur.com/NOIv2YT.jpg

Tumblr in a nutshell

:lol:

Talking on the internet really is like disarming a bomb sometimes.

I get it when people decide that they don't give a **** and just say as is.

[rickwj324]

I don't even know what the hell Tumblr is, but I know you people consistently amuse the hell out of me. :lol:

I'm right there with ya... not a clue what it is. :P

EDIT: I just had to look it up!! Here it is: "Tumblr is a microblogging platform and social networking website founded by David Karp and owned by Yahoo! Inc."

And knowing is half the battle..... :lol: :lol:

[saintsaucey]

I got infamous on tumblr a while back.

[pannoni1]

Part of the discussions is why I don't like to post as much unless I really feel it adds to the discussion, and its sad how topics on this forum tend to go too out of hand that allows you to treasure hunt for the answers that are relevant. And to simply state it, outside of Splinter's "You are what you eat" last week, I've never felt appalled with any derogatory remark regarding body mass. It avoids bad controversy and keeps it enjoyable to watch. And I don't tumblr since microblogging just doesn't appeal for me as I want to make sure that I can get the complete picture rather than pieces of it.

[Netkeeper]

I got infamous on tumblr a while back.
Hey, don't just TELL us that and leave without a story!! :P

[saintsaucey]

No its really humiliating. Like contemplating suicide humiliating. The worst part is not knowing who all of my friends and family know about it and just haven't said.

[Netkeeper]

Ohh, one of those type of stories.

Sorry to hear about that, man. :(

[saintsaucey]

I will admit that the original incident is my fault, though having asbergers/fetal alcohol syndrom and thus not understanding social clues is not. I blame her for sharing it and not hiding my identity better.

[kelligrafie]

Truly the worst part of the Nick show isn't the show itself, its that its attracted the anime/tumblr crowd applying TVtropes and shipping to a show that barely has any.

I'm glad in the 2k3 days and the 80's cartoon days we didn't have to deal with this.

And we didn't have to put up with people posting endless pictures of themselves in the #tmnt tag of them wearing a 'vintage' t-shirt they bought in a mainstream clothes outlet, going on about their childhoods.

[Coola Yagami]

Wow. So much hate. I use all that social media stuff, watch tmnt and buy tmnt stuff, and like omg you guys, I have a job, a girl, friends AND a life. Using tumblr doesn't make you some kind of... Whatever the hell kind of person Cubed thinks social media are.

[kelligrafie]

Social media is full of ignorant, self-righteous, self-obessed losers, who overshare and force their opinions on everyone else, simply because they can.

That's a harsh statement perhaps, but it's true.

But I personally (and actually, I think Cubed is as well) am smart enough to know that these people don't represent everyone who uses social media in the same way that fangirls don't represent an entire fandom.

That doesn't mean that when they're annoying, you can't point it out.

[Papenbrook]

Everyone, please. I'm not trying to be a Social Justice Warrior. I was just trying to ask a question, and recieve thoughtful responses. I am sorry if I offended anyone with my thread. Also, I have no association with Tumblr.

[Leo656]

Will it betray my age if I confess not knowing what a "Livejournal" is, either? :lol: I completely missed, like, ALL of the internet from 2005 until 2012. Thankfully.

And 75,000 Bonus Points for use of the word "Crapulent". Ho-leeeeee sh*t. :lol:

[saintsaucey]

Will it betray my age if I confess not knowing what a "Livejournal" is, either? :lol: I completely missed, like, ALL of the internet from 2005 until 2012. Thankfully.

And 75,000 Bonus Points for use of the word "Crapulent". Ho-leeeeee sh*t. :lol:

I was in college at 23 with a bunch of 18 year olds and one of them became a friend who used one like all the time.

[BoxxHarry]

Everyone, please. I'm not trying to be a Social Justice Warrior. I was just trying to ask a question, and recieve thoughtful responses. I am sorry if I offended anyone with my thread. Also, I have no association with Tumblr.

Maybe you should provide more examples than three characters who are kinda villain-esque and just happens to be fat. Fat-shaming would be more of another character treating them badly because of their weight. Should they create more characters with different body sizes? Maybe, I mean most of the cast are mutants so I don't see it as a big deal, but just having the majority being skinny is not enough to claim that a show is fat-shaming.

[Leo656]

OT reply, just because it came up: I'unno, I genuinely don't enjoy social media and I think it only brings out the worst in people. When I, for one, am feeling desperate for attention from near-total strangers, I wear gaudy tights and play-fight with other grown men, for the amusement of young children and their half-drunk parents. Other people go online and tell everyone in the whole world exactly where they are at every second and what they're eating, watching, or jacking it to. People really care?

I mean, at least my way, people occasionally get hit with folding chairs. I'unno. If I didn't need FB to get bookings I wouldn't even bother. The whole "Look At Me!" culture we've fallen into is very vapid and disturbing, if you ask me.

[Konchadunga]

Jeez; isn't having a retard as one of the main characters enough PCification? That superhero comic posted perfectly approximates my view here.

[saintsaucey]

I sense a banning in the future.

[Netkeeper]

Social media is full of ignorant, self-righteous, self-obessed losers, who overshare and force their opinions on everyone else, simply because they can.

That's a harsh statement perhaps, but it's true.
Aren't forums full of the same type of people? :V As far as I'm concerned they're all one in the same.

Jeez; isn't having a retard as one of the main characters enough PCification?
WOW. WOOOOOW.

[Donatello19]

I'm fat myself and haven't picked up on any "fat shaming". I don't even think they ever made any fat jokes...

[Sighphi]

Mike is the fattest turtle and he doesnt get any hate.

[Konchadunga]

I sense a banning in the future.

Because I said about 2012 Michelangelo what a number of other people have said about him? It might not be the best approximation, but he sure isn't normal in the head.

Personally, I'm of the view that it's what's inside that counts. :ohwell: I think you can be big and be healthy, just as you can be skinny and unhealthy. I think society's gotten a bit shallow with the obsession with body weight. It's kind of depressing, tbh.

Not wanting to start an argument or anything... but I'm sure that we have members on these boards who are all shapes and sizes. Real beauty comes from within, and a person's worth isn't determined by an arbirtary number on a scale.


I partially agree. Many people do put too much emphasis on weight in general as an abstract representation of health, and there are certainly many, many cases of people becoming feeble in the quest to be lean. It's sad that Ronda Rousey and Jeniffer Nicole Lee would not meet many people's standards of a "fit" woman.

That said, if we can chuck abstract terms like "weight" and "big" aside, and make clear that we're talking about high fat content, then no; it is not something that is healthy, and it's not something I feel like forgiving. Yes; social pressures that drive people to adopt a specific unhealthy body shape are deplorable, but society can also be too liberal, and the movement towards denying any inferiority of any sort among people is a clear case. If you're going to have trouble with my stairs and nearly break my chairs, and take up two seats on a bus, sorry, but you have a problem and ignoring it won't make it go away.

Honestly, I'm ashamed the term "fat-shaming" even exists. This show's decision to make Timothy fat sends an absolutely fine message to children: If you want to be athletic like your heroes, then get your fat ass up and take the job seriously. It's harsh; I know, but it's kind of a nice break from media that constantly gives children the false promise that everyone is wonderful, and that if you believe, you can achieve anything. Difficult hings get achieved through hard work and a sense of realism and willpower, and forgiving mediocrity does not instill those values.

[Netkeeper]

Because I said about 2012 Michelangelo what a number of other people have said about him?
I don't think I recall anybody ever saying anything that out of line about him.

[saintsaucey]

I love 2012 Mikey. He is like Joey from friends.

[saintsaucey]

Woohoo I reached thug status. (Thug is totally not a racist term by the way despite people insisting it is.

[rickwj324]

I love 2012 Mikey. He is like Joey from friends.

Woohoo I reached thug status. (Thug is totally not a racist term by the way despite people insisting it is.

I absolutely LOVE Mikey from the Nick toon. He's also my 5 year old's favorite character.
And congrats on your 'thug' status!! :P

[kelligrafie]

Aren't forums full of the same type of people? :V As far as I'm concerned they're all one in the same.

Depends on the forum 8)

[RaphAndDonnie]

I love 2012 Mikey. He is like Joey from friends.

That's incredibly fitting :lol: It's going into my signature.

[saintsaucey]

That's incredibly fitting :lol: It's going into my signature.

Woohoo......

[Konchadunga]

I don't think I recall anybody ever saying anything that out of line about him.

Well, out of line or not; they have.

If people think 2k3 Mikey is Stupid/ Retarded.....what does that make 2k12 Mikey??? Supe-Retard??

I don't know what you're talking about. 4Kids mike was goofy but not stupid. Nick Mike is the one who acts retarded.

I don't say Raph fro Nick series is heartless, I l
I totally agree on that.

One word: Mikey.

Why were you so stupid in this premiere? :mad: I thought he would've matured a bit but I felt:

- his jokes were off and unfunny

- his non-common sense/no sensitive side on what happened to April's dad being mutated into a bat. I thought he's the most compassionate one among his brothers? When they caught Kirby in a cage in the warehouse, Mikey practically excitedly exclaimed loudly: "We did it, Don. We caught the Kirby Bat!" whilst gesturing like a grotesque monster. What is so amusing about catching April's dad Mikey? I felt it's so offensive to be joyfully partying when you entrapped your friend's own father.

- him blurting out about them dropping the mutagen all over the city. This one got me: he's so casually saying "Don't worry, don't worry, we'll get it all back" to April. As if the situation is like spilled milk or ice cream and we can all get it back. Like it's no big deal. Like April's dad turned into a bat is like not a serious issue at ALL. What the hell? It's not like they can change him back (atm). Didn't he think about April's feelings? Again, where's your common sense? Is your brain dead Mikey?

I mean.. is my fave turtle has gone beyond retarded and unlikeable now? I blame the horrible writers. -_-


of boy did he ever, 87 mickey was lazy and had the surfer thing going on which reflected the times. 90-ies mickey was just a lighthearted guy who when it comes to the serious stuff is gonna get his **** together and be there for you (that's why he is my favorite version of the character). 2k3 mickey was fun but he went overboard sometimes. Nick Mickey is straight up retarded, there are moments when he's brothers are in mortal danger and he keeps the doing stupid stuff, he never has a character moment , he's just a bunch of jokes thrown together, one of the reasons why i quit the show. I guess each mickey represents the time he's living in, which says a lot about this generation...

Kind of have to agree here. I do like the 2k12 Mikey, his goofiness/naiveness is funny, but it's gets a bit ridiculous esp. when they are in an emergency. The 2k3 Mikey was funny at first but easily got annoying as time went on. OT Mikey and movie Mikey were probably my favorite versions of the character cuz as you just said, he was more versatile there and not too over the top. The only annoying thing with OT Mikey is his surfer/stoner type attitude, but at least he's more sensible and more laid back over the other versions.

[m1om1om1o]

Sadly yes, it gets to show some fat shamming. But of course people here will never accept it. Mikey is the chubby one and he gets treated like a idiot and incompetent most of the time.

[Coola Yagami]

Well, out of line or not; they have.

I sense you have a problem with the word retarded? I'd rather call mikey brain-dead idiot myself.

[Konchadunga]

Mikey is not very fat, and he's treated that way because of his mental abilities being genuinely deficient. There may be some slight joke about his pizza obsession tying his lack of focus to his gut, but overall, that's treated as something positive about him, while his mind is the weak point.

[pennydreadful]

Irma is considered to be on the chubby side, in no way shape or form has she ever been shown as anything but a good friend to April. Timothy wasn't exactly bad, just stupid and Sir Malachi turned good in the end. Slash is also made to look fat in his mutant form, but again, he turned good as well. There's no real fat shaming in this show.

... Irma's considered to be chubby?? Boy is my finger not on the pulse of the world today! :teek:

As someone who probably fits into the tumblr, feminist, fangirly, anime-fannish, PC and SJ crowds... I don't really know what else to add to this thread. :lol:

[Electric]

What? No!

Timothy was treated the way he was because he was a lazy idiot. If you recall when he was first introduced by talking smack to the purple dragons the turtles thought he was awesome. They didn't have that 'oh it's a fat guy who is going to suck because he's overweight' and the whole rest of the episode, Tim was a liability, lazy, clueless, over eager and well a doofus. So of course they were going to be annoyed with him. It has nothing to do with him being treated badly for being overweight.

I'm sure his design was chubby because he was suppose to be really lazy and unmotivated to better himself. I don't think the show thought 'Fat people are lazy' but more like 'if you're lazy, you're probably going to get fat'

That's life.

People need to stop being so sensitive or politically correct. Not everything is out to get them.

This reminds me of when someone was saying the show was racist because all of the black people were thieves. (Mainly aimed at Zeck because of the way he talked) Yet, it would be fine if white people were thieves or I don't know...a Japanese guy right? It's the people that are screaming racism or shaming that are fueling the stereotypes more than the show is.

This idea of fat shaming is as stupid as freaking out over a commercial that says ''Go outside and play kids! Get in shape! Stay in shape, it's healthy for you!" and crying 'this is making fat kids feel bad that they can't go outside and play like all the thin kids in the commercial! They might have asthma or something and can't do what the commercial says to do and it makes them feel ashamed!!111'

No. Stop it.


This^

Couldn't have worded it better myself

[NinjaPug]

Sadly yes, it gets to show some fat shamming. But of course people here will never accept it. Mikey is the chubby one and he gets treated like a idiot and incompetent most of the time.

Mikey's chubby?

[pennydreadful]

Mikey's chubby?

... I never thought of him as chubby either. Baby-faced, maybe, but not chubby.

[kelligrafie]

... Irma's considered to be chubby?? Boy is my finger not on the pulse of the world today! :teek:

These days, anything above size zero is chubby or 'curvy'.

Karai would be seen as 'athletic' by todays womens' magazines.

I don't even know what you'd class April. She's got too much boob 'n' butt to be 'boyish' or 'slim' (where you're pretty much ironing board flat all the way up and down). But she probably doesn't have the muscle tone to be classed athletic.

She's quite a good combination actually. In the unlikelihood that TMNT is having an influence on youngsters in regards to weight and waistline, April is a good role model. She looks to have a respectable body mass index.

[Coola Yagami]

These days, anything above size zero is chubby or 'curvy'.

Karai would be seen as 'athletic' by todays womens' magazines.

I don't even know what you'd class April. She's got too much boob 'n' butt to be 'boyish' or 'slim' (where you're pretty much ironing board flat all the way up and down). But she probably doesn't have the muscle tone to be classed athletic.

She's quite a good combination actually. In the unlikelihood that TMNT is having an influence on youngsters in regards to weight and waistline, April is a good role model. She looks to have a respectable body mass index.

April is pretty much a toothpick.....

[pennydreadful]

April is pretty much a toothpick.....

Yeah, I pretty much interpret the depictions of April, Karai and Irma in this show as being skinny.

[Coola Yagami]

Yeah, I pretty much interpret the depictions of April, Karai and Irma in this show as being skinny.

I'd say Irma is more normal. Not a toothpick but not fat either. She's not even 'thick' enough to be considered thick.. But not a toothpick.

[Konchadunga]

Going to disagree with you about today's size standards. Skinny is no longer the ideal, and more people are into curves and muscles.

[HayaMika]

I have yet to see anything about this subject on tumblr, and I am VERY active on tumblr.

Anyway, as someone who is rather heavyset herself, I don't see ANYTHING along the lines of fat-shaming.

[pennydreadful]

Apropos of absolutely nothing, I'm going to share a recent-ish PC fail on my part - I was talking to a new neighbour who is legally blind. I'm a socially awkward creature at the best of times, and as I was trying to wrap the conversation up so I could scurry back inside and resume my favourite pastime (namely, not having to talk to people), instead of saying "goodbye" to her, I said "see you later". I then spent the rest of the night kicking myself over it.

Which, I suppose, just goes to show that no matter how much time you spend reading Tumblr posts, there are times when you will always put your foot in it no matter what. :lol: And that no matter how much of a good game you talk online about trying to use correct language so as not to hurt anyone's feelings, you're probably still going to be no better than anyone else in casual conversation! Ah well, at least I can lulz about it...

[Enscripture]

You people are forgetting that fat loser from that mind-numbingly stupid sparrow episode.

[pennydreadful]

... sometimes I want to go back to being a kid, where I didn't have to think about the social implications of things! :lol:

Here's a fat-positive cartoon role model for all of us:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpc1pckW2e1qeqaqao1_500.gif

[Lou 500]

... sometimes I want to go back to being a kid, where I didn't have to think about the social implications of things! :lol:

Here's a fat-positive cartoon role model for all of us:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpc1pckW2e1qeqaqao1_500.gif

aLd7-bXv8NA

[pennydreadful]

:lol::lol::lol:

Yak's blood... that was gold. :D

[kelligrafie]

April is pretty much a toothpick.....

A toothpick with boobs, however pointy (seriously, can we update this model - it's like old school Lara Croft) and a butt which has been quite lavished on with attention this season.

That's not a toothpick. Toothpicks are flat up/down.

[BubblyShell22]

Apropos of absolutely nothing, I'm going to share a recent-ish PC fail on my part - I was talking to a new neighbour who is legally blind. I'm a socially awkward creature at the best of times, and as I was trying to wrap the conversation up so I could scurry back inside and resume my favourite pastime (namely, not having to talk to people), instead of saying "goodbye" to her, I said "see you later". I then spent the rest of the night kicking myself over it.

Which, I suppose, just goes to show that no matter how much time you spend reading Tumblr posts, there are times when you will always put your foot in it no matter what. :lol: And that no matter how much of a good game you talk online about trying to use correct language so as not to hurt anyone's feelings, you're probably still going to be no better than anyone else in casual conversation! Ah well, at least I can lulz about it...

Penny, saying "See you later" to a blind person really isn't offensive depending on how they take it. I say it to my BF all the time after we see each other, and he doesn't care. He's not offended by it because he knows what I mean by it.

[The Big Bad]

(Whomever bet that my post would be #79, come and claim your prize.)

Purple Kraken: Based on the treatment of overweight characters, such as Victor, Timothy , or Martin , do you think the show is treating overweight characters badly?

This is a show that took the April clone--a sentient human being who spent all of her life in captivity for the crime is not being what her creators wanted due to no fault of her own--and then turned into a comedy character to be laughed at, slurred, and killed off without a thought. A show whose sexism has been well-cataloged and persistent. So yes.

Granted, the show is in no way special in that regard; many works indulge in microaggressions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microaggression) against fat people--the subtle, yet persistent assertions that they are somehow lesser: less worthy of respect, less capable, less diverse, etc. None of this requires actually saying anything explicit, but the mere fact that it's not obvious doesn't make it harmless.

So far, the show's prominent fat characters--all male--tend to adhere to a certain type: comical, unpleasant, pathetic...the sort of person you wouldn't want to be, admire, or be around, which conforms quite well with existing stereotypes. None of them, even the ones that are treated more or less fairly like Mr. Murakami, are what I would considered "well-developed". A drop in the bucket, comparatively speaking? Yes. This doesn't mean it's not worth talking about, or that people who happen to be offended by it, if they exist, are wrong.

Konchadunga: That said, if we can chuck abstract terms like "weight" and "big" aside, and make clear that we're talking about high fat content, then no; it is not something that is healthy, and it's not something I feel like forgiving. Yes; social pressures that drive people to adopt a specific unhealthy body shape are deplorable, but society can also be too liberal, and the movement towards denying any inferiority of any sort among people is a clear case. If you're going to have trouble with my stairs and nearly break my chairs, and take up two seats on a bus, sorry, but you have a problem and ignoring it won't make it go away.

Honestly, I'm ashamed the term "fat-shaming" even exists. This show's decision to make Timothy fat sends an absolutely fine message to children: If you want to be athletic like your heroes, then get your fat ass up and take the job seriously. It's harsh; I know, but it's kind of a nice break from media that constantly gives children the false promise that everyone is wonderful, and that if you believe, you can achieve anything. Difficult hings get achieved through hard work and a sense of realism and willpower, and forgiving mediocrity does not instill those values.

You are being hella rude and displaying some absolutely not shocking ignorance. Please stop.

[Konchadunga]

Rude to whom? Ignorant of what? I called it how I saw it, and I expressed my gladness that the show painted obesity in a bad light, but I never insulted anyone.

[plastroncafe]

I like to fancy myself a Social Justice Bard, rather than Warrior.

As for whether or not this show has elements of Fat Shaming, well...the argument can be made that it does.

The fat characters we've seen thus far:
Pre-mutation Timothy
Pre-mutation Spiderbites
Mr Murakawa

Two of those three are coded as lazy and obnoxious.

I'm not saying that the creators think that all fat people are lazy and obnoxious, or even that 2/3rds of them are, I'm just saying that the argument that they do can be made because there's precious little data that says otherwise.

The way to combat these sorts of arguments is to add more diversity to your character line up.

Again, it's not the fault of the people raising these arguments, the onus to combat this sort of thing is on the creators.

We now return you to your usual fanboy kvetching, already in progress.

[kolaida]

I honestly don't see fat shaming. I mean most of the characters are going to be more athletic due to being ninja. Also, in what world do people live in that Mikey is considered even slightly chubby??!! I'd hardly call Irma chubby either, she looks like a typical girl with curves. Now, the other people like Timothy, and Mr. Murakami- I don't know, I can't say its fat shaming. Closest might be Tim, but part of his character was just that he's lazy. I'm totally against fat shaming due to having a lot of obese relatives (runs in fam) and friends, but I just don't see it here.

[Midnight Mutant]

You people are forgetting that fat loser from that mind-numbingly stupid sparrow episode.

Based on the treatment of overweight characters, such as Victor, Timothy , or Martin , do you think the show is treating overweight characters badly?



Sir Malachi/Martin Milton was a fat kid if I remember correctly and I think they presented him as a nice character by the end.





Vic was a lazy slob who took advantage of the Turtles to try and get rich and only ended up getting mutated, Timothy was a kid who just wanted to be a hero and ended up getting mutated due to his stupidity, and Martin was a guy who was innocently feeding the sparrows in his yard when he got mutated. People really need to stop acting like this show is doing things that it clearly isn't doing.


Vic and Tim were just lazy and stupid, no time were they called "fat" as an insult, it was just character design. Martin wasn't really bad in his episode, he was just a kid who didn't know better.

Sir Malachi turned good in the end. Slash is also made to look fat in his mutant form, but again, he turned good as well. There's no real fat shaming in this show.

Oh, you mean this guy that was mentioned about 4 or so times during the discussion? It's 4 pages, it's not that hard to go back and read Enscripture.

There is no fat shaming with him either. He was most likely fat because he stayed inside all day all the time and played board games.
This will make you fat. Again, it's life.
He was never treated badly and never because he was fat (or an amputee for that matter) The turtles thought he was bad, because well...they didn't know he was playing. When they figured it out, their attitude completely changed towards him. He was never bad. In fact, I think he was probably one of the most sweetest human turned mutant so far.

He's also not a loser. Just because his pass time is different than yours. Which honestly is about the same level of nerdiness considering you're on a TMNT forum.

[BubblyShell22]

And why the hell are you dragging Murakami into this? He runs a freakin' noodle shop, and I wouldn't call him overly obese at all. He's also blind and yet that doesn't make him less of a fighter when he has to defend his shop or less of a friend to the Turtles. He's one of my favorite characters and I would hardly call him lazy or even obnoxious.

[TurtleTitan97]

This thread makes no sense. This show isn't fat shaming anyone. Where the heck did this idea come from?

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

This thread makes no sense. This show isn't fat shaming anyone. Where the heck did this idea come from?

My sentiments exactly

[Konchadunga]

This thread makes no sense. This show isn't fat shaming anyone. Where the heck did this idea come from?

The absurd notion that fat-shaming exists; that's where.

Remember, tropes are not bad. Well, some are, but so far the only needlessly fat, vilified character is Spider-Bytes; everyone else is just an archetype. The negative portrayal of Timmy is, as I said, justified, because they're trying to teach a lesson that you can't be slovenly if you want to take on a big respomsibility. Being fat doesn't make him a bad person, but it makes him a bad ninja, and he was immature not to see that. But Malachite, as has been said, is only "shamed" if you're personally ashamed of such a person. The archetype of a fat, hairy, withdrawn RPG-nerd is based on many real-life examples, but many of us, including myself, have known and liked such people. Murakami, I hadn't even thought of; I haven't seen any negative traits tied to his slight obesity.

[pennydreadful]

Penny, saying "See you later" to a blind person really isn't offensive depending on how they take it. I say it to my BF all the time after we see each other, and he doesn't care. He's not offended by it because he knows what I mean by it.

Thanks Bubbly, that actually makes me feel better! :) It's probably just one of those things where I built it up to be worse than it actually was in my mind - I'll be the first to admit that I can be oversensitive about things sometimes!

The absurd notion that fat-shaming exists; that's where.

Fat-shaming does exist though. Which is FUBAR, imo, because if fat-shaming actually worked, nobody would be fat. All it does is make people feel bad about themselves - I'd rather contribute to making people happy instead of making them feel bad.

Fat doesn't equal bad, or lazy, or ugly, or worthless or disgusting. If someone's happy in the skin they're in - why not live and let live?

[Konchadunga]

Because it's unhealthy. I should note that it's not just fat; I am in general not a fan of telling people to love themselves for who they are, and not comparing themselves to someone else. I am not a fan of the notion that there are no inferior people; only different people. It leads people to self-absorbtiom and egotism too much, and I take this very personally because I myself fell into that trap. I never was fat, but I was a sickly child, and for a large portion of my life, I wrote all fitness off as overrated peer pressure conditioning that I, as an individual, was above.

But then I started to be estranged from my brother and friend. They would go out and play, I never wanted to, and when I did, I annoyed them with my slow moving. Likewise, I had a sense of humor that annoyed them, and I didn't stop with it because I embraced it as being part of who I was. tldr; I was a self-absorbed prick, and it wasn't until I got to high school, and my hormones started raging, that I had the hindsight to realize I'd screwed myself, and that I didn't deserve the attention of other (largely female) people if I was going to do nothing to earn it.

So I started weight-training. I didn't get as beefy as I liked, but I bulked up. Today, I am quite toned at spots. It makes me feel a lot better about myself than I did when I was a fussy little wimp. It may be easy to be happy with the cards you're dealt, but it's much more satisfying to have cards you grabbed by the horns and yanked in with effort.

You cite that people are still fat as evidence that fat-shaming doesn't work, but that is not a very compelling argument when you consider the myriad other trends affecting people. One is, of course, the endless glorification of cheap, fattening foods spewed on the media, but in general, I truly think the blind encouragement many give to individualism these days is way out of hand. As an Aspie, it's not easy for me to say this, but sometimes, people have realize they suck, and grow some damned humility and self-discipline--and if they're not sufficiently ashamed of themselves, others' shame will have to do.

[Donatello19]

Fat? I prefer the term "pleasantly plump".

[Metalwolf]

I've heard others call it 'fluffy.'

I don't get where this 'fat shaming' thing comes from either. I see none of it on the show, in fact the ratio of negative (Timothy, Victor) is balanced out by the positive (Murikami and Martin.)

It's one thing to mistreat someone because they're fat, but being concerned for their health, or not pretending being fat is all hunky dory isn't exactly 'fat shaming.' I used to be fat (even though it was created by medication) and I won't lie about how much it sucked. Telling me how positive it was or telling me to 'love my body' didn't take away the aching knees, fatigue, and sweating a lot.

And as someone said before, we have an abundance and glorification of junk food. Plus people turn to it for comfort because we've become insular and distracted, busy and production minded at the cost of our tranquility. It's an easy coping method because food doesn't nag, it's cheap, and it promises temporary escape. If we learned not to rush so much as a society and didn't try to sever all of our face to face social connections through Facebook and texting, then we might find a better way to cope.

[plastroncafe]

Size is not an indicator of overall health.
People would do well to remember that.

Thin people can be unhealthy too.
As can people who work out excessively
(See the resurgence of Rhabdomyolysis in the culture of Cross Fit)

As for the use of "shame" as a motivational tool for people to live a healthier lifestyle, well I'd imagine that'd be about as effective as aiding in the socialization of the non-neurotypical.

[Coola Yagami]

A toothpick with boobs, however pointy (seriously, can we update this model - it's like old school Lara Croft) and a butt which has been quite lavished on with attention this season.

That's not a toothpick. Toothpicks are flat up/down.

Lol. Yeah the show's creators seem to have a thing for April's ass. Kinda wish it was like that in the 80s lol. But that was a more goody-goody time for cartoons.

[Huzzah]

The 80's toon had a thing for April's boobs, I remember sitting in the barracks one weekend, with some of the other infantry guys and we decided to watch the old cartoon, several people pointed out they didn't remember the major cleavage exposure.

[Coola Yagami]

The 80's toon had a thing for April's boobs, I remember sitting in the barracks one weekend, with some of the other infantry guys and we decided to watch the old cartoon, several people pointed out they didn't remember the major cleavage exposure.

Yeah but it wasn't pointed out. Lol. At least not by the characters.

Woulda been funny. I can imagine April escaping from one of those crappy cartoon cages where the bars are miles apart.

'Hey guys, I'm busting out!'
raph- I'll say.

[pennydreadful]

Because it's unhealthy. I should note that it's not just fat; I am in general not a fan of telling people to love themselves for who they are, and not comparing themselves to someone else.

... I've gotta be honest, I really can't understand that, but we'll agree to disagree - you're entitled to your opinion. :)

As far as weight and health go - if it's not my body, it's not my business. If someone wants to lose weight for their own reasons, hooray - but if they're happy being fat, I'm not gonna razz them about it.

Some people are happy being fat, some aren't. I don't think it's really good to generalize, in either case.

[Konchadunga]

Size is not an indicator of overall health.
People would do well to remember that.

Again, enough with this "size" thing. It's not size that is unhealthy; it's size that is tied to fat. Michael Jordan is not (or was not) unhealthy; Michael Moore is.

Thin people can be unhealthy too.


Believe me; I know. I get genuinely upset when I say I need to work out more, and women tell me "but you're so trim!" I get genuinely worried about girls who obsess about it. I already mentioned that I do not approve of cultural bias that pushes people to that. However, I felt the need to point out the other side. People talk excessively about how peer pressure can drive people to do stupid things to themselves, but I see comparative few complaints levied about the more liberal aspects of our culture that lets them do stupid things to themselves.

As can people who work out excessively
(See the resurgence of Rhabdomyolysis in the culture of Cross Fit)

That's less about working out excessively, and more about working out too quickly to do it right.

As for the use of "shame" as a motivational tool for people to live a healthier lifestyle, well I'd imagine that'd be about as effective as aiding in the socialization of the non-neurotypical.

Speaking as someone who's both non-neurotypical and formerly unhealthy, no. There's what fate does to you, there's what society does to you, and then there's what you do to yourself. Allowing for some external factors like bad parents and schools, fat is generally the third. True, some people are genetically predisposed to be fatter, but there are medical treatments for that, which should be taken lest someone risk other health problems.


... I've gotta be honest, I really can't understand that, but we'll agree to disagree - you're entitled to your opinion. :)

As far as weight and health go - if it's not my body, it's not my business. If someone wants to lose weight for their own reasons, hooray - but if they're happy being fat, I'm not gonna razz them about it.

Some people are happy being fat, some aren't. I don't think it's really good to generalize, in either case.

Try saying that after you've watched relatives you care about piss their life away. My uncle on my mother's side is not only obese, but also an alcoholic, unhygienic, and often an asshole. My grandmother and all his sisters hardly say jack to him about it; they just kept inviting him to our holiday get-togethers in hopes that he'd do something other than make an add of himself and eat more than his share. Then there's my other uncle (by marriage) who literally was on life support in part because of his sedentary lifestyle. And my beloved music teacher who died because he smoked. And half of my relatives who are likely to die for the same reason.

This is what comes of thinking you're fine whatever way you are, and ignoring all peer pressure. Some people are afraid of hurting feelings, but if their advice is genuinely, objectively good, then they shouldn't worry.

[plastroncafe]

Michael Moore is.

You don't know that. You're not his doctor.

Believe me; I know. I get genuinely upset when I say I need to work out more, and women tell me "but you're so trim!" I get genuinely worried about girls who obsess about it. I already mentioned that I do not approve of cultural bias that pushes people to that. However, I felt the need to point out the other side. People talk excessively about how peer pressure can drive people to do stupid things to themselves, but I see comparative few complaints levied about the more liberal aspects of our culture that lets them do stupid things to themselves.

I love how you both bemoan the plight of girls with eating disorders with the same breath that you advocate the use of shame for people you think are unhealthy.

As if it's not that very shame that you support that's making those girls sick.

At the end of the day it's not your business, and it's not your place.
Shame on you for pretending like it is.

That's less about working out excessively, and more about working out too quickly to do it right.

Those look like exactly the same thing to me.

Speaking as someone who's both non-neurotypical and formerly unhealthy, no. There's what fate does to you, there's what society does to you, and then there's what you do to yourself. Allowing for some external factors like bad parents and schools, fat is generally the third. True, some people are genetically predisposed to be fatter, but there are medical treatments for that, which should be taken lest someone risk other health problems.


Speaking as someone who is unhealthy and non-neurotypical:
Stop pretending you know what's best for others. You don't.
Shame is a crap way to get people to think better about themselves.

[pennydreadful]

Try saying that after you've watched relatives you care about piss their life away. My uncle on my mother's side is not only obese, but also an alcoholic, unhygienic, and often an asshole. My grandmother and all his sisters hardly say jack to him about it; they just kept inviting him to our holiday get-togethers in hopes that he'd do something other than make an add of himself and eat more than his share. Then there's my other uncle (by marriage) who literally was on life support in part because of his sedentary lifestyle. And my beloved music teacher who died because he smoked. And half of my relatives who are likely to die for the same reason.

This is what comes of thinking you're fine whatever way you are, and ignoring all peer pressure. Some people are afraid of hurting feelings, but if their advice is genuinely, objectively good, then they shouldn't worry.

... that's kind of an extreme viewpoint, and I can't see the connection.

You can't equate having self esteem with someone dying of lung cancer or someone killing themselves with an addiction. It's not the same thing. Being cruel to someone about how they look doesn't really correlate, IMO.

It's great that there were things that you changed about yourself, and that you feel better for having done so, but you can't impose your own standards for happiness on others.

[Konchadunga]

Except as I've tried to make clear, I don't call it shame. I sure don't call it shame when it's in the form it is in this show! I just call that realism. I certainly am not advocating making mooing noises every time you say a fat person or anything like that, but I do not want media seeding the notion that being fat is okay in the same ways that being black or Jewish is. I do not want media giving people the quixotic notion that they can be fat and do strenuous physical activities many people's lives depend on. Finally, I do not want the media telling people they should fall in love with inner beauty; at least not when it's a fat person who can do something about it. People should be willing to put in some damned effort if they want a romantic relationship. Inner beauty to me entails self-discipline and industriousness.

I'll give you this, though, society should focus more on what people should do instead of what they shouldn't. Blanket statements like "fat is bad" certainly can lead to anorexia, but if we could just promote a new cultural model to the forefront to kill off the "Twiggy" ideal, then we could have a happy medium. I say ability to do things should be a judge of fitness. Encourage people, women included, to build muscle; it burns fat more gracefully than purge diets, and also requires too much fuel to permit starvation.

[Leo656]

Not gonna lie, having a ton of overweight and generally unhealthy people in my family, my empathy only goes so far. And there's a difference between being a little overweight and morbidly obese. Having studied more than a little bit about what goes into making people THAT overweight, I have no choice but to view it the same way I do the "disease" of addiction: An entirely self-inflicted condition based on knowing that what you are doing is bad for you, doing it anyway, acting surprised when it causes serious negative effects to your health, and then expecting other people to feel sorry for you and/or help you through life. 20lbs overweight is one thing; when you're 300lbs, you did it to yourself and have no reason to be happy about it.

The biggest reason I became a trainer was, it really sucked watching my parents struggle with their weight-related health issues my whole life. If I can help people avoid those problems, I'm more than happy to do so. And I do everything I can to encourage my clients in their progress and make sure they're proud of every milestone they hit along the way. I never, ever make anyone feel bad. But, I usually don't have to. The entire reason they hire me is, they're already unhappy, they want to change, they don't know how and are smart enough to know that they probably can't do it without help. I don't have to pile on, and I wouldn't, anyway, because I know how hard it is. I don't advocate anyone getting themselves to that point. But I don't delude myself to think that it's easy to live that way.

What kills me, though, what I get fed up with every single day, are the excuses that some - not all - overweight people insist upon as to why they're "stuck" the way they are. No time to exercise. Don't know how to eat right. It's their genetics. Had a bad day and just didn't feel like working out (My wife pulled that one today, mere minutes after bragging to someone how she just started working out again and is oh so committed to it :roll:). No money to join a gym. All day every day, I listen to these types of people somehow try and convince me it's the world's fault that their body fat is an astronomical 40%, with a visceral (internal organ) fat level of 15%, which is "Call the f*cking hospital, this person's veins are full of gravy" unhealthy. There are practical solutions for every single one of those problems, and some people plain don't want to hear it. Those people, I have no sympathy for.

[Coola Yagami]

Sometimes I wonder how people get that big and still be alive. I hate to admit I'm not as slender now as when I was half my age, but I'm pretty sure I'd die of cholesterol or a heart attack before I get to weigh 300 pounds or so. Or big enough where I can't even walk and need one of those motorized wheelchairs.

[plastroncafe]

You want to know what Fat-Shaming is?
Fat-Shaming is the assumption that every overweight person is that way because they're lazy. Because they only sit in their basement playing video games. That they lack social skills.

Fat-Shaming is the assumption that you can't be loved or love until you can ruck a marathon. Just one more crunch or push up and maybe, just maybe you'll earn the right to be a full-fledged human being in the eyes of those around you.

You might not call it shame, but that's exactly what it is.
And it's gross, as are the people who perpetuate that mindset.

As I said before, the argument could be made that Nick TMNT participates in fat-shaming.
A simple: No, I don't know that it does because not every fat person on the show is like that
Would have ended the conversation. Any argument can be made, but not any argument can be supported intelligently.

But instead what we got in this thread was a bunch of people supporting the thesis. That Timothy's weight was indicative of his character. That he's fat to showcase his laziness. How could someone fat be a hero?! What a laugh!

It's gross.

I don't have to be able to take ten flights of stairs without getting winded to have healthy self-esteem. Nor should I.

I eat healthy, I bike and walk everywhere because I choose not to own a car, and I'm still overweight. Obese if the BMI chart is to be trusted. All this: but but but...you're unhealthy! Think of the children! It's not shame it's realism! Is nothing but concern trolling. And it's gross.

[Cure]

Cartoons sure bring out the best in people.

[pennydreadful]

Finally, I do not want the media telling people they should fall in love with inner beauty; at least not when it's a fat person who can do something about it. People should be willing to put in some damned effort if they want a romantic relationship. Inner beauty to me entails self-discipline and industriousness.

I'll give you this, though, society should focus more on what people should do instead of what they shouldn't. Blanket statements like "fat is bad" certainly can lead to anorexia, but if we could just promote a new cultural model to the forefront to kill off the "Twiggy" ideal, then we could have a happy medium. I say ability to do things should be a judge of fitness. Encourage people, women included, to build muscle; it burns fat more gracefully than purge diets, and also requires too much fuel to permit starvation.

... what, so people who don't fit a certain standard of attractiveness don't deserve to have relationships? A person's personality means nothing if they're not thin? Dude, I'm sorry, but that's way out - I can't get behind that.

People come in all different shapes and sizes. Even if you started promoting a more muscular beauty standard, that's no different than the sizeism that we've currently got at work here - and given that huge numbers of men are falling victim to eating disorders due to the current media obsession with muscled men, I really don't see how that wouldn't be harmful.

Nobody's saying that all fat people are healthy, or that everyone suddenly has to get a boner over fatties. I'm not saying that at all. But vice versa, not all fat people are unhealthy, and fat itself is not an indication of laziness or a lack of self respect. You can feed two people the exact same diet with the exact same exercise and they're not going to be the same weight.

This conversation is getting seriously depressing.

[ssjup81]

I'm fat myself and the main thing wrong with me is that I'm diabetic, but regardless of size I probably would've gotten it anyway, slim or big. My father has it, his mother had it. My mother's father had it, his mother had it, my mother's mother has it (but in her case she got it when older). I was bound to get it. A couple of my mother's sisters are diabetic. My mother inherited blood pressure problems, despite exercising and stuff when young. She got it while young and slim. She has it under control though, despite being bigger than she was in her 20s/30s. She's in her late 50s now.

I have an aunt who is big and she has no health problems, she's only overweight. Surprising too in general to most.

Size doesn't mean anything health wise.

[CyberCubed]

I can't believe this thread has turned serious.

[pennydreadful]

Yeah... think I'm gonna bow out at this point - this is all making me a bit sad and regardless, I've said my piece. Folks on either side of the argument aren't going to change their opinions either way.

[Konchadunga]

You want to know what Fat-Shaming is?
Fat-Shaming is the assumption that every overweight person is that way because they're lazy. Because they only sit in their basement playing video games. That they lack social skills.


I never argued that every fat person is fat for that reason. However, it's obvious that Timothy is. Fat isn't his only; maybe not even main problem, but it's indicative that he doesn't have the work ethic he needs; as is his buffoonish, self-important attitude.

Fat-Shaming is the assumption that you can't be loved or love until you can ruck a marathon. Just one more crunch or push up and maybe, just maybe you'll earn the right to be a full-fledged human being in the eyes of those around you.

You might not call it shame, but that's exactly what it is.
And it's gross, as are the people who perpetuate that mindset.

Maybe, but I never went nearly that far; nor did the show.

As I said before, the argument could be made that Nick TMNT participates in fat-shaming.
A simple: No, I don't know that it does because not every fat person on the show is like that
Would have ended the conversation. Any argument can be made, but not any argument can be supported intelligently.

But instead what we got in this thread was a bunch of people supporting the thesis. That Timothy's weight was indicative of his character. That he's fat to showcase his laziness. How could someone fat be a hero?! What a laugh!

It's gross.

You are twisting my words. A fat person can be a hero of sorts, certainly. He can be a good lawyer who saves you in court. He can be a politician who passed laws that help you. He can be a good father.

But sorry, no; he should not be an in-the-field soldier. He's too pudgy to move easily; let alone stealthily, and the question as to whether his being fat is indicative of his laziness is pointless, because all things about him point to that. He's enthusiastic; yes, but he's a fanboy with no realistic view of what this sort of thing takes. I do not know why this is seen as a bad impression on children, and honestly, the theory that he's fat because he's lazy is a lot more pleasant to children than that he just has very bad genes; as the former is seen as surmountable.

I mean, for Lord Simultaneous's sakes, what the shell is next? Whining about negative portrayal of smokers and alcoholics, and that it isn't their fault and they're still good people, which somehow negates that? That's what's gross.

I don't have to be able to take ten flights of stairs without getting winded to have healthy self-esteem. Nor should I.

I eat healthy, I bike and walk everywhere because I choose not to own a car, and I'm still overweight. Obese if the BMI chart is to be trusted. All this: but but but...you're unhealthy! Think of the children! It's not shame it's realism! Is nothing but concern trolling. And it's gross.

Well I'm sorry to hear your predicament, but that doesn't give you an excuse to to condemn people for railing against the genuine but preventable obesity "epidemic" infecting many children. It's bad enough that TV geared towards them is constantly whetting their appetite for unhealthy food; we can't stand to lose the occasional cartoon with an anti-obesity message. Again, this may be a part of some people's genetic identity, but for far more people, it's something they just picked up from something they've encountered, like a drug habit or a rash. It's not something to embrace.


... what, so people who don't fit a certain standard of attractiveness don't deserve to have relationships? A person's personality means nothing if they're not thin? Dude, I'm sorry, but that's way out - I can't get behind that.

You don't have to. It's every person's choice what he or she is attracted to. However, as harsh as it is, people need to realize that none of them are ever owed a relationship. If they're fat, and they find someone who likes/tolerates fat people, well lucky them, but it shouldn't surprise them if they don't, and at some point, if they're serious about wanting a partner, they should resolve to work on their figure instead of weeping about how shallow people are. You once again put words in my mouth with this "personality doesn't matter" business--of course it does. But what someone chooses based on how others feel is a big part of personality, and those choices can be both mental and physical. Choosing to exercise, choosing to wash, choosing not to pick your nose or fart in public, choosing not to throw temper tantrums at trivial things; all of these are choices that can make life easier for people who want a relationship.

People come in all different shapes and sizes.

And they also change them to others. You simply cannot stress the "this is part of being a special snowflake" argument too far.

Even if you started promoting a more muscular beauty standard, that's no different than the sizeism that we've currently got at work here - and given that huge numbers of men are falling victim to eating disorders due to the current media obsession with muscled men, I really don't see how that wouldn't be harmful.

My suggestion of a muscular ideal was not really in reference to an unrealistic, statuesque physique that requires more effort than most are willing to put in. The word I used was "medium"; a functional body. I don't think too many people would go overboard trying to be medium, and less people would feel ashamed by such an ideal, too.

Nobody's saying that all fat people are healthy, or that everyone suddenly has to get a boner over fatties. I'm not saying that at all. But vice versa, not all fat people are unhealthy, and fat itself is not an indication of laziness or a lack of self respect.

It's more accurate to say that not all fat is bad. Bodies need some of it to perform vital functions. A layer of it is there to protect the heart. However, get it too much, and there is no dancing around the hazards. As it gets heavier, that fat layer over the heart doesn't merely protect it anymore; it subjects it to risk. That a fat person may be able to do some other physical tasks well does not negate that anatomical factor. You need fat for many athletic endeavors, but past a certain point, you're stabbing yourself.

You can feed two people the exact same diet with the exact same exercise and they're not going to be the same weight.

So what? I already acknowledged multiple things in relation to that in past posts; such as that weight is not necessarily fat, and for genuine bad chemistry, there are medical solutions. If people have value for their health and one method fails, try another, but do something.

This conversation is getting seriously depressing.

This conversation was depressing from the start. Seriously; this has First-World problem written all over it in lard. People are starving in many parts of the world that never see obesity, and here, there are people whining about shaming it? I'm appalled. You people who think fat is part of what defines who you are, look around you. This is a result of a manufactured, spoiled society where you have the luxury to do that. There's no heroic individuality there; just taking from the trough on easy street. I'm done. In the words of one famous fat man, "You know what grinds my gears? You, America! **** You!"

[The Turtle Terminator]

Whos Martin?

[snake]

Whos Martin?

Sir Malichi, if that's how you spell it.

[kolaida]

Not gonna lie, having a ton of overweight and generally unhealthy people in my family, my empathy only goes so far. And there's a difference between being a little overweight and morbidly obese. Having studied more than a little bit about what goes into making people THAT overweight, I have no choice but to view it the same way I do the "disease" of addiction: An entirely self-inflicted condition based on knowing that what you are doing is bad for you, doing it anyway, acting surprised when it causes serious negative effects to your health, and then expecting other people to feel sorry for you and/or help you through life. 20lbs overweight is one thing; when you're 300lbs, you did it to yourself and have no reason to be happy about it.

The biggest reason I became a trainer was, it really sucked watching my parents struggle with their weight-related health issues my whole life. If I can help people avoid those problems, I'm more than happy to do so. And I do everything I can to encourage my clients in their progress and make sure they're proud of every milestone they hit along the way. I never, ever make anyone feel bad. But, I usually don't have to. The entire reason they hire me is, they're already unhappy, they want to change, they don't know how and are smart enough to know that they probably can't do it without help. I don't have to pile on, and I wouldn't, anyway, because I know how hard it is. I don't advocate anyone getting themselves to that point. But I don't delude myself to think that it's easy to live that way.

What kills me, though, what I get fed up with every single day, are the excuses that some - not all - overweight people insist upon as to why they're "stuck" the way they are. No time to exercise. Don't know how to eat right. It's their genetics. Had a bad day and just didn't feel like working out (My wife pulled that one today, mere minutes after bragging to someone how she just started working out again and is oh so committed to it :roll:). No money to join a gym. All day every day, I listen to these types of people somehow try and convince me it's the world's fault that their body fat is an astronomical 40%, with a visceral (internal organ) fat level of 15%, which is "Call the f*cking hospital, this person's veins are full of gravy" unhealthy. There are practical solutions for every single one of those problems, and some people plain don't want to hear it. Those people, I have no sympathy for.

I wish you could help my mother. She has tried everything, including surgery (and followed the instructions to a t but did not lose nearly the amount she thought she would). She also has something wrong with her feet (.planter something) and has had surgery on them both. I don't think she has ever had a trainor, though. Maybe I should suggest it?

[BubblyShell22]

My mom developed diabetes a few years ago, and while she's not morbidly obese, she was kind of heavy. She got herself on a diet and things improved. But then stress started to get to her and she began getting back into unhealthy eating patterns again. I told her not to eat foods that would give her the runs and to get back on a diet. She went to the doctor and found out her protein was high and had to have an ultrasound on her liver, gallbladder, and kidney on Friday. She found out she has fat in her liver, and that she just needs to keep going on her diet as she's been doing. So far, things have been fine with her, and I'm glad that she's eating healthier. I told her not to let the stress get to her and not to let my sister get to her and cause her to eat like that because that's just what's the problem. I think she's finally listening to me, and that's a good thing. It's one of the reasons I'm glad I still live at home because if I wasn't here to encourage her, she'd probably still be eating like that. I certainly didn't shame her or make her feel bad, but I showed genuine concern for her well-being. There's nothing wrong with doing that as it shows that you care.

So that's my two cents on that.

[kolaida]

Thanks, I think I will suggest something. I know she keeps trying and it must just feel like the never ending tunnel for her. I know she'd be happier without the weight and it depresses her.

[Papenbrook]

Wow... I didn't know the thread would become so personal. I apologize if I made anyone upset with my thread. I hope you can forgive me.

This thread needs to be locked for everyone's sake.

[Leo656]

I wish you could help my mother. She has tried everything, including surgery (and followed the instructions to a t but did not lose nearly the amount she thought she would). She also has something wrong with her feet (.planter something) and has had surgery on them both. I don't think she has ever had a trainor, though. Maybe I should suggest it?

By surgery, I'm assuming it was gastric bypass or "stomach stapling", something to that effect? Those surgeries notoriously have a high rate of rebound weight gain and a host of other complications. I understand why people do it - a friend's wife lost almost 200lbs that way and honestly looks terrific - but I'm disturbed by how common it's become, and have read a lot of horror stories about people who were sold on it as a "quick fix" by unscrupulous doctors, only to either not lose the weight or gain it back quickly, along with myriad other health issues. Again, I only assume that's the surgery you're referring to, though.

First she should have an in-depth physical from her doctor, because it sounds like her condition(s) carry some physical limitations. Usually - especially if a person has had surgery - there may be some exercises a person shouldn't or can't do. Depending on her condition, she may be best off doing some physical therapy rehabilitation first to make sure all her joints are in good shape, before undertaking a more strenuous physical exercise program. Losing weight - especially an extreme amount - is a long, slow road. People hate to hear that, but it's the truth. There isn't any easy way. A person NEEDS to have a proper balance of strength training, cardio training, and proper diet. If any one of those things is not on the mark, progress will be slow to nonexistent. And most importantly, people need to realize there will never be a time when you're "done". Your body isn't like a sculpture, where once you hit your ideal "self" it stays that way forever, and you can just stop exercising and eating right. You'd be amazed how often I get asked, "So once I lose the weight, I can quit all this, right?" It has to be just another part of life. You eat breakfast every day, you take a shower every day, you brush your teeth every day, you hit the gym every day. That's the only way it works. If it came in a box, we'd all have it.

Also: Low-intensity yoga may be of great help. People scoff, but I've seen people who were on crutches, who were told they would NEVER walk normally again, who were 300+lbs, lose almost 150lbs in one year and not only walk without crutches, but RUN. Check this video out:
http://ddpyoga.com/

Once I saw that, I stopped believing in excuses. I believe anyone can be healthier to SOME degree, regardless of limitations. Olympic-level athletes, maybe not, but we all have limitations. The trick is, not giving up until you find a way to circumvent them. You only get one life; I feel it's a disservice to one's self not to be as healthy as possible.

Best of luck to your mom. Sounds like starting out will be rough, and finding the right way to start will require some help, but anyone who is committed can find a way. Hope she finds her path.

[saintsaucey]

I'm six foot and around 280. I walk around 9 miles a day 6 days a week. I eat basicly 2 meals a day. No sides.

[snake]

http://memedepot.com/uploads/2000/2268_1277855434049.jpg

[kolaida]

By surgery, I'm assuming it was gastric bypass or "stomach stapling", something to that effect? Those surgeries notoriously have a high rate of rebound weight gain and a host of other complications. I understand why people do it - a friend's wife lost almost 200lbs that way and honestly looks terrific - but I'm disturbed by how common it's become, and have read a lot of horror stories about people who were sold on it as a "quick fix" by unscrupulous doctors, only to either not lose the weight or gain it back quickly, along with myriad other health issues. Again, I only assume that's the surgery you're referring to, though.

First she should have an in-depth physical from her doctor, because it sounds like her condition(s) carry some physical limitations. Usually - especially if a person has had surgery - there may be some exercises a person shouldn't or can't do. Depending on her condition, she may be best off doing some physical therapy rehabilitation first to make sure all her joints are in good shape, before undertaking a more strenuous physical exercise program. Losing weight - especially an extreme amount - is a long, slow road. People hate to hear that, but it's the truth. There isn't any easy way. A person NEEDS to have a proper balance of strength training, cardio training, and proper diet. If any one of those things is not on the mark, progress will be slow to nonexistent. And most importantly, people need to realize there will never be a time when you're "done". Your body isn't like a sculpture, where once you hit your ideal "self" it stays that way forever, and you can just stop exercising and eating right. You'd be amazed how often I get asked, "So once I lose the weight, I can quit all this, right?" It has to be just another part of life. You eat breakfast every day, you take a shower every day, you brush your teeth every day, you hit the gym every day. That's the only way it works. If it came in a box, we'd all have it.

Also: Low-intensity yoga may be of great help. People scoff, but I've seen people who were on crutches, who were told they would NEVER walk normally again, who were 300+lbs, lose almost 150lbs in one year and not only walk without crutches, but RUN. Check this video out:
http://ddpyoga.com/

Once I saw that, I stopped believing in excuses. I believe anyone can be healthier to SOME degree, regardless of limitations. Olympic-level athletes, maybe not, but we all have limitations. The trick is, not giving up until you find a way to circumvent them. You only get one life; I feel it's a disservice to one's self not to be as healthy as possible.

Best of luck to your mom. Sounds like starting out will be rough, and finding the right way to start will require some help, but anyone who is committed can find a way. Hope she finds her path.

You're correct, it was gastric, she did it when it first starting gaining popularity around ten years ago and has had crazy issues since. Thanks, I will recommend physical therapist, I know her feet have been major issues and I think it would benefit her if she could get in touch with someone who has experience and knowledge training people who've had weight loss surgery but it was not as successful as they thought it would be. I hope she finds her path, too. Thank you!

[Leo656]

While we're at it, go ahead and put all of these "methods" on the Avoid At All Costs list. ((Shudder))
http://www.cracked.com/article_21141_5-insane-new-weight-loss-methods-you-wont-believe-are-legal.html

[fridaynightdestination]

I'm fat and I wanna lose weight before I end up with diabetes or something, but I've been too lazy. I dunno, I'll figure something out. Anyway, I never got the impression that the show was fat shaming anyone, so no.

[Refractive Reflections]

Fat-shaming now? Ugh... aren't we looking a bit too deeply at something that isn't there? What's next, somebody's going to make a comment about how this show has something against Asian Indians and Middle Easterners since there isn't one single character who is on the Nick show?

Or somebody feels offended that Raph is shorter than Donnie and Leo, so it implies that shorter people feel insecure/temperamental and somehow can't lead? Or with Donnie's bizarre crush or Sir Malachi's obsession with a board game, that someone will feel offend because it implies that nerdy geeks are always creepy and weird?

If a show really wanted to be offensive (which I highly doubt since it would be suicide for a kids show), it would be a little more obvious. Besides, does society really want to pride itself in having a "social justice" form of PCness to all forms of diversity? Pfft, just look at the shows like The Simpsons or South Park and yet those are well-received despite their more obvious forms of harsh satire against differing demographics. For example, if anything, if those same people are supposedly finding fat-shaming in Nick TMNT, they should be beyond outraged with The Simpsons in its portrayal of Homer Simpson, Ralph Wiggum, Chief Wiggum, Krusty the Clown, and Comic Book Guy for lasting for so many years.

It's interesting how some viewers choose to be selectively offended with particular programs rather than deciding to not view any television programs that contain a specific form of microaggression or subtle bigotry.

[kelligrafie]

There's too many long words in this thread. :oops:

And I'm pretty sure most of them are being used by people who don't actually know what they mean, they just wrote them because they look clever.

[IMJ]

http://i.imgur.com/NOIv2YT.jpg

Tumblr in a nutshell


AHHhh... the age of being "opportunistically offended". You know things have gone to crap when people claim offense at something simply because their pea-brains have recognized that someone may be offended by it.

People need to be reminded that being "offended" doesn't mean that someone committed a crime against them. Get over it. Everyone does not get a trophy.

[raphmike]

people look beautiful outside. i am short too that ok alway beautliful that
where i learn form tv show.

[Kendamu]

Fat shaming? Not in the slightest.

[alpaca witch]

I'd consider myself a progressive thinker and advocate for what some would call "social justice" but really most of it just comes down to you know... common decency and just NOT being an asshat? With that said, I really can't see how this show would be guilty of fat shaming. If anything, it has more sympathetic and realistic overweight characters than most other shows could claim. Like what exactly do you want? All fat characters to be portrayed as perfect, untouchable white knights who do know wrong? That's just as silly and unrealistic as the alternative. I wouldn't even say Timothy's fat really, just chubby. He's pretty active even if he's out of shape, although now he's quite literally out of shape as a writhing mass of organs but still.

The only time I can remember being a bit disappointed in the show was with the whole "April derp" thing for various reasons. First of all putting annoying and outdated memes in cartoons is stupid as hell. It may have been funny at the time you wrote the script but by the time it gets animated and aired it's most certainly out of date. Memes have a shelf life of like, a couple weeks at most before they become overdone and irritating.
The other problem I had with it was due to the fact that the word "derp" is intended to make fun of special needs people. I know most don't see it that way, and the writers probably just saw it as a funny internet word, but bottom line that's where it comes from. I'm all for poking fun at anybody but it's really not funny when the person you're making fun of can't understand you or has no control over the thing you're making fun of. Like wow, congrats, you picked on a special needs child good job! What next, you're going to brag about how you beat a paraplegic in an uphill race, or how you can beat up your 5 year old sister? It's just the lowest common denominator and just not really funny in the slightest. I'm sure I'll get some sort of flack for this post but honestly, if you feel upset or something then you're probably part of the problem and need to look into why it is you're upset in the first place.

[ssjup81]

I'd consider myself a progressive thinker and advocate for what some would call "social justice" but really most of it just comes down to you know... common decency and just NOT being an asshat? With that said, I really can't see how this show would be guilty of fat shaming. If anything, it has more sympathetic and realistic overweight characters than most other shows could claim. Like what exactly do you want? All fat characters to be portrayed as perfect, untouchable white knights who do know wrong? That's just as silly and unrealistic as the alternative. I wouldn't even say Timothy's fat really, just chubby. He's pretty active even if he's out of shape, although now he's quite literally out of shape as a writhing mass of organs but still.

The only time I can remember being a bit disappointed in the show was with the whole "April derp" thing for various reasons. First of all putting annoying and outdated memes in cartoons is stupid as hell. It may have been funny at the time you wrote the script but by the time it gets animated and aired it's most certainly out of date. Memes have a shelf life of like, a couple weeks at most before they become overdone and irritating.
The other problem I had with it was due to the fact that the word "derp" is intended to make fun of special needs people. I know most don't see it that way, and the writers probably just saw it as a funny internet word, but bottom line that's where it comes from. I'm all for poking fun at anybody but it's really not funny when the person you're making fun of can't understand you or has no control over the thing you're making fun of. Like wow, congrats, you picked on a special needs child good job! What next, you're going to brag about how you beat a paraplegic in an uphill race, or how you can beat up your 5 year old sister? It's just the lowest common denominator and just not really funny in the slightest. I'm sure I'll get some sort of flack for this post but honestly, if you feel upset or something then you're probably part of the problem and need to look into why it is you're upset in the first place.I never heard "derp" before seeing the ep recently as I just got into this a month or so ago. I didn't know it was an internet meme, but I also don't frequent sites that have them, I guess. I use FB, but mostly for the messaging system to my folks back home.

[The Big Bad]

I'd consider myself a progressive thinker and advocate for what some would call "social justice" but really most of it just comes down to you know... common decency and just NOT being an asshat? With that said, I really can't see how this show would be guilty of fat shaming. If anything, it has more sympathetic and realistic overweight characters than most other shows could claim. Like what exactly do you want? All fat characters to be portrayed as perfect, untouchable white knights who do know wrong? That's just as silly and unrealistic as the alternative. I wouldn't even say Timothy's fat really, just chubby. He's pretty active even if he's out of shape, although now he's quite literally out of shape as a writhing mass of organs but still.

Again, the issue here is that fatness is consistently used as part of a punchline, used in order to sell just how pathetic and unpleasant various characters are. That's all fat characters usually are: fat and funny. Very rarely are they things like three-dimensional or heroic. And while the show's portrayals aren't especially egregious, they are still part of the problem--the problem being defined as "they make it easier for people to believe what Konchadunga believes about fat people, i.e.: that it'd be much better for everyone if they didn't exist."

So what's the alternative? Not to make them perfect, but to use them in roles that are different from the ones we usually see. For example, if we're limiting ourselves to existing roles, Kurtzman could have been a good fat character. Or, if we're shooting for the moon, April herself. That would have been fantastic, because fat people--and especially fat women--are very rarely portrayed as desirable. Granted, I in no way trust the writers to have done so without consequently making the character the butt of fat jokes, but I can dream.

[Ninjinister]

The other problem I had with it was due to the fact that the word "derp" is intended to make fun of special needs people.

It isn't and wasn't. It's an expression to indicate clumsiness, failure, or a mistake.

[Powder]

I'd consider myself a progressive thinker and advocate for what some would call "social justice" but really most of it just comes down to you know... common decency and just NOT being an asshat? With that said, I really can't see how this show would be guilty of fat shaming. If anything, it has more sympathetic and realistic overweight characters than most other shows could claim. Like what exactly do you want? All fat characters to be portrayed as perfect, untouchable white knights who do know wrong? That's just as silly and unrealistic as the alternative. I wouldn't even say Timothy's fat really, just chubby. He's pretty active even if he's out of shape, although now he's quite literally out of shape as a writhing mass of organs but still.

The only time I can remember being a bit disappointed in the show was with the whole "April derp" thing for various reasons. First of all putting annoying and outdated memes in cartoons is stupid as hell. It may have been funny at the time you wrote the script but by the time it gets animated and aired it's most certainly out of date. Memes have a shelf life of like, a couple weeks at most before they become overdone and irritating.
The other problem I had with it was due to the fact that the word "derp" is intended to make fun of special needs people. I know most don't see it that way, and the writers probably just saw it as a funny internet word, but bottom line that's where it comes from. I'm all for poking fun at anybody but it's really not funny when the person you're making fun of can't understand you or has no control over the thing you're making fun of. Like wow, congrats, you picked on a special needs child good job! What next, you're going to brag about how you beat a paraplegic in an uphill race, or how you can beat up your 5 year old sister? It's just the lowest common denominator and just not really funny in the slightest. I'm sure I'll get some sort of flack for this post but honestly, if you feel upset or something then you're probably part of the problem and need to look into why it is you're upset in the first place.

http://i60.tinypic.com/9h3m6d.png

[Leo656]

:lol: That's his "Raphael Face".

[Cure]

I do agree that that April clone was annoying as f*ck because it used dumb internet lingo, but not because it was some slight against people with mental handicaps. That's looking way too much into it.

[The Big Bad]

It isn't and wasn't. It's an expression to indicate clumsiness, failure, or a mistake.

...by calling back to the sound mentally disabled people allegedly make. Still a slur, and still a word used to let the audience know that the character isn't to be considered worthy of respect or empathy.

Cure: That's looking way too much into it.

I see this come up a lot, and I am always baffled. I mean, we're fans. Looking too much into things is what we do. So why is it fine everywhere else but not when it comes to taking note of the way the show can be problematic? Defending the show by saying that it's "just a show" feels like the worst thing you can call it. If it's "just a show"--insubstantial and inconsequential and not worth thinking about on any deep level--then what the heck are we all doing here?

[BubblyShell22]

We're here because we're fans of TMNT and genuinely like the show. But just because of that, I'm not going to accuse it of fat shaming characters or making fun of handicapped people when it clearly isn't. People who believe that are looking too much into it and thinking a little too deeply than the show intends. Tim wasn't a horrible character. He was out of shape and wanted to be a hero but failed at it and got himself mutated. April Derp was just a failed experiment and said "Derp" probably because she couldn't say much else except for "April give hugs." It was meant to be humorous but I don't think it had anything to do with making fun of handicapped people.

[alpaca witch]

http://i60.tinypic.com/9h3m6d.png
What's even the point of this reply?
I do agree that that April clone was annoying as f*ck because it used dumb internet lingo, but not because it was some slight against people with mental handicaps. That's looking way too much into it.

...by calling back to the sound mentally disabled people allegedly make. Still a slur, and still a word used to let the audience know that the character isn't to be considered worthy of respect or empathy.



I see this come up a lot, and I am always baffled. I mean, we're fans. Looking too much into things is what we do. So why is it fine everywhere else but not when it comes to taking note of the way the show can be problematic? Defending the show by saying that it's "just a show" feels like the worst thing you can call it. If it's "just a show"--insubstantial and inconsequential and not worth thinking about on any deep level--then what the heck are we all doing here?

I'm pretty much going to echo what the big bad said here since I couldn't have put it better myself. It's easy to just brush off these things as "not important" or say they don't matter. At the risk of sounding preachy I'll just say I know what it's like to have that attitude, I did at one point in the distant past. But since then I've worked with special needs children and adults so it's just heartbreaking to me that people would even consider picking on a group of people who can't even fight back. That's just the lowest of the low and if you seriously think you're cool and edgy for laughing at the handicapped then you have a lot of growing up to do. Especially if you're an adult, that's just beyond pathetic.

You can plug your ears and call me a SJW all you want (as if that somehow negates anything I've said and declares you the victor) but even if you don't agree with me, at least think about what's been said instead of just brushing it off. There's no shame in admitting you've messed up, especially since more often than not you aren't aware until informed. All I ask is to be a little more conscientious. You have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

[Cure]

at least think about what's been said instead of just brushing it off.

I have thought about it; you guys still look way too much into it.

[Coola Yagami]

We're here because we're fans of TMNT and genuinely like the show. But just because of that, I'm not going to accuse it of fat shaming characters or making fun of handicapped people when it clearly isn't. People who believe that are looking too much into it and thinking a little too deeply than the show intends. Tim wasn't a horrible character. He was out of shape and wanted to be a hero but failed at it and got himself mutated. April Derp was just a failed experiment and said "Derp" probably because she couldn't say much else except for "April give hugs." It was meant to be humorous but I don't think it had anything to do with making fun of handicapped people.

Failed clone or not.... April Derp was clearly mentally retarded.... and there lies the insult.

Honestly I kinda didn't want to hear that word in a TMNT cartoon. The term is far from outdated too. 9Gag uses it all the time in their Derp and Derpina strips.

[Refractive Reflections]

I do agree that that April clone was annoying as f*ck because it used dumb internet lingo, but not because it was some slight against people with mental handicaps. That's looking way too much into it.


I see this come up a lot, and I am always baffled. I mean, we're fans. Looking too much into things is what we do. So why is it fine everywhere else but not when it comes to taking note of the way the show can be problematic? Defending the show by saying that it's "just a show" feels like the worst thing you can call it. If it's "just a show"--insubstantial and inconsequential and not worth thinking about on any deep level--then what the heck are we all doing here?

Typically we look deeply into things like character and plot development, and not having our perspective focused on overanalyzing every which way to read for any perceived offensive subtext against a particular demographic. If having that highly sensitive perspective seems to be one's overt main perspective in this show (or approaching any show), then what does that imply about the viewer then? Besides, should we really be giving a show such grief over perceived problems, when our society has far worse PC offenders (i.e. The Simpsons and South Park) that society accepts (to an almost cultural iconic level) based on viewership ratings?

[BubblyShell22]

Failed clone or not.... April Derp was clearly mentally retarded.... and there lies the insult.

Honestly I kinda didn't want to hear that word in a TMNT cartoon. The term is far from outdated too. 9Gag uses it all the time in their Derp and Derpina strips.

She was also deformed, too. Are we going to say the show makes fun of deformed people also by this character design? Come on! I didn't see anything insulting about it at all. It was a failed clone and nothing more, and they never even used retarded in the show anyway, so I really don't see the problem with it. And as RR said, The Simpsons and even South Park have done way worse than Nick TMNT has in making fun of things.

[snake]

Failed clone or not.... April Derp was clearly mentally retarded.... and there lies the insult.

Honestly I kinda didn't want to hear that word in a TMNT cartoon. The term is far from outdated too. 9Gag uses it all the time in their Derp and Derpina strips.

C'mon dude, she was just a failed clone. She wasn't retarded or anything like that.

[BubblyShell22]

Exactly. It was just one sound and that's it. Besides, she probably won't be coming back anyway, so I really don't see what the issue is here.

[ssjup81]

I thought they called her April Derp because she said it a lot. Mikey even called the other clones April Derps.

[Coola Yagami]

C'mon dude, she was just a failed clone. She wasn't retarded or anything like that.

Ughhh yeah... She basically was. Clearly she didn't have a fully developed brain which is what causes mental retardation.

Gah. Why did the show had to touch on such a touchy subject.

[Powder]

Failed clones & creatures made by man that are not fully man, are a big part of horror & sci-fi culture, which this show pulls from immensely. It's not a touchy subject, it's just folks like you choosing to put a liberal spin on things, creating problems where there are none.

[The Big Bad]

Failed clones & creatures made by man that are not fully man, are a big part of horror & sci-fi culture, which this show pulls from immensely. It's not a touchy subject, it's just folks like you choosing to put a liberal spin on things, creating problems where there are none.


Yes, she draws from a series of established tropes. But here's the thing: failed science experiments, zombies and whatnot tend to be treated sympathetically, as people who bear no culpability and whose deaths tend to be considered undesirable and undeserved. Here, however, the April clone is not only named by the writers after an ableist slur, she is made fun of over and over again by the script, and is killed without any sort of consideration, despite the fact that she is a sentient creature who was simply lashing out after being held captive all of her life. What, exactly, makes her any different from any of the turtles--similarly accidental genetic misfits--and why is she undeserving of the empathy the writers expect us to have for them? What makes her deserving of being defined solely by her perceived lack of intelligence?

[TurtleMaster4]

A person's a person no matter how small....... Or big!

I don't see any "Fat Shamming" as you call it, the only one was with Timothy, there were time I feel like they were trying to use is weight as a joke in the first episode. I call that bad comedy, not shaming.

Actually, pretty much everything with Timothy is bad comedy, I have a hate hate relationship with that character, but if I spoke on that It might take a few threads!

Anyways, Mr. Muricami (I know I spelled it wrong) was heavy, but he was also awesome! They need a Muracami show!

[BubblyShell22]

Yes, she draws from a series of established tropes. But here's the thing: failed science experiments, zombies and whatnot tend to be treated sympathetically, as people who bear no culpability and whose deaths tend to be considered undesirable and undeserved. Here, however, the April clone is not only named by the writers after an ableist slur, she is made fun of over and over again by the script, and is killed without any sort of consideration, despite the fact that she is a sentient creature who was simply lashing out after being held captive all of her life. What, exactly, makes her any different from any of the turtles--similarly accidental genetic misfits--and why is she undeserving of the empathy the writers expect us to have for them? What makes her deserving of being defined solely by her perceived lack of intelligence?

Maybe because in this context she's the villain created by the Kraang. After all, why should we have sympathy for the villains anyway? That's the way I look at it, and I really don't care about her or how she was modeled. You just like to look into things too deeply and try to make it seem like the show's doing such a horrible thing when it's not. Lighten up.

[plastroncafe]

Yes, she draws from a series of established tropes. But here's the thing: failed science experiments, zombies and whatnot tend to be treated sympathetically, as people who bear no culpability and whose deaths tend to be considered undesirable and undeserved. Here, however, the April clone is not only named by the writers after an ableist slur, she is made fun of over and over again by the script, and is killed without any sort of consideration, despite the fact that she is a sentient creature who was simply lashing out after being held captive all of her life. What, exactly, makes her any different from any of the turtles--similarly accidental genetic misfits--and why is she undeserving of the empathy the writers expect us to have for them? What makes her deserving of being defined solely by her perceived lack of intelligence?

Powder saying so, obviously.

Maybe because in this context she's the villain created by the Kraang. After all, why should we have sympathy for the villains anyway? That's the way I look at it, and I really don't care about her or how she was modeled. You just like to look into things too deeply and try to make it seem like the show's doing such a horrible thing when it's not. Lighten up.

No.
One note villains are boring characters. They're a product of lazy storytelling.
Villains, GOOD villains, should be sympathetic. They're supposed to be the heroes of their own stories. Being three dimensional characters makes for better drama. It gives the hope of redemption, and by extension makes the heroes more heroic by comparison.

[The Big Bad]

Maybe because in this context she's the villain created by the Kraang. After all, why should we have sympathy for the villains anyway?

In this particular case? Because she has absolutely no say in her situation and is being held captive for reasons having nothing to do with her actions. Because her understanding of her situation and the consequences of her actions are suspect at best. Because other people treat her as a monster because of her appearance and intelligence--including, sadly, our heroes.

It's interesting to compare "The Kraang Conspiracy" with the Fast Forward episode "D.N.A. is Thicker than Water". Faced with their own version of the April clone--Sh'Okanabo's turtles--the writers of that episode understood that the characters' circumstances didn't curtail the possibility for them to do good, and made it so that the (non-clone) turtles knew it as well. Even though the clone turtles are far more responsible for their actions than the April clone was, the 4Kids turtles were nevertheless sympathetic enough to try and reach out to their "brothers", something that the episode portrays as good and turns out to pay dividends, as the clone turtles end up being more kind to one another. Was that episode wrong? Were they not deserving of the sympathy they got?

[alpaca witch]

I like how apparently "you're looking into it too deeply" is somehow considered a valid argument. Yes, TMNT is primarily a kids show that also caters to older audiences but that doesn't mean it's exempt from analysis and criticism. It's not really even grasping at straws at this point, we've pointed out a scene (or series of scenes) that blatantly happened, not some random hidden easter egg or something like that. Again, I'm sure the writers had no intentions of making it offensive, as most seem to just think "derp" is a random silly internet word, but it still came off as cringe worthy and just... needlessly touchy.

Back to the April reject discussion though, it was really messed up how she was dealt with all things aside. I mean the kraang just shoved her in some hole in the floor and then forced her out to try and fight the turtles. From what I remember she seemed pretty harmless, and just didn't know her own strength. I mean for heck's sake she hugged the turtles then went on about how she loved hugs. I never once felt like she was a legit threat, if anything I actually felt bad for her since I'm sure she would have rather just played with the turtles. But then she exploded, along with a whole gaggle of other Aprils. Weird episode, even for TMNT.

[IMJ]

Failed clone or not.... April Derp was clearly mentally retarded.... and there lies the insult.

Honestly I kinda didn't want to hear that word in a TMNT cartoon. The term is far from outdated too. 9Gag uses it all the time in their Derp and Derpina strips.

You must be one of those.... ummm... people.... from that failing, asswipe "everyone gets a trophy" generation, huh?

Some things are jokes, kid. Learn to laugh and make stands on real issues.

[Metalwolf]

Back to the April reject discussion though, it was really messed up how she was dealt with all things aside. I mean the kraang just shoved her in some hole in the floor and then forced her out to try and fight the turtles. From what I remember she seemed pretty harmless, and just didn't know her own strength. I mean for heck's sake she hugged the turtles then went on about how she loved hugs. I never once felt like she was a legit threat, if anything I actually felt bad for her since I'm sure she would have rather just played with the turtles. But then she exploded, along with a whole gaggle of other Aprils. Weird episode, even for TMNT.Yeah, I felt sorry for her too, even for the other clones. I'm guessing they also felt that they were April, and that their whole feelings were based on something that was never true.

Although with so many things of the show to talk about, why does it end up being that the most in depth multi-page discussion of it is how it's insulting to fat people and special needs? That's an odd thing to pull from a TMNT show. :ohwell:

[Klap Klap]

Well… uh…
http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah152/SunflowerComics/tumblr_m95mqygc2U1rxlmf0o1_250_zpsf8a94a5f.gif (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/SunflowerComics/media/tumblr_m95mqygc2U1rxlmf0o1_250_zpsf8a94a5f.gif.htm l)

It's not uncommon for a cartoon show to scratch the surface of bad taste from time to time. It'll probably happen again for the sake of a cheap laugh.

My thoughts? April Derp would have best been suited as a scrapped idea. It was obviously going to ruffle a few feathers. Not everything has to be tip-toed around, but come on, it wasn't even that funny. Also, if I may be sensitive for a moment, Casey calling Irma 'nasty' was baffling. It's humorous to mistake Splinter for Irma, but why add on 'so nasty'. Is it because her style illustrates typical adolescent angst? Is it because she's a little overweight? I don't see anything repugnant about Irma.

[BubblyShell22]

I don't think Casey was referencing her appearance in that comment but more about what she was talking about. You know how she loves rats and often goes on tangents about them and other things. She was probably discussing something that Casey didn't find amusing and thought it was nasty, hence why he called her that.

[MCLeo28]

I don't think Casey was referencing her appearance in that comment but more about what she was talking about. You know how she loves rats and often goes on tangents about them and other things. She was probably discussing something that Casey didn't find amusing and thought it was nasty, hence why he called her that.

This. You honestly can't overlook Irma's reaction to the rat droppings in "Of Rats and Men". Those are instances where we have seen Irma being considered an "odd ball". That, and since Irma talks about rats which we know Casey doesn't particularly enjoy just emphasizes why Casey considers Irma nasty.