Sexuality and gender identity discussion

[pennydreadful]

Thought that there should be a thread for this where like-minded folks can talk about themselves, their feelings and associated things to do with these topics in a friendly space.

This isn't meant to be a thread for bashing anyone, regardless of their sexuality or gender identity, so let's all keep it friendly. :)

Since identity was brought up I'd like to state for the record that my sexuality is more completely described as homosexual polyamorous, but seeing as I'm single at the moment and not particularly looking that part isn't too relevant. Not that I'd say no to a dude or two that'd be interested, if I think we'd be a good match. I'd give it a try. But homosexual doesn't always describe me too perfectly either, because I've considered a few non-binary trans people and one of my exes is non-binary and adorably androgynous.

My main hangups don't lie with gender, but with sexuality, honestly -- I've had bisexual guys approach me but I'd get real uncomfortable when it was obvious they preferred women, since it made me feel like they were only lusting after me because of my feminine appearance/mannerisms. I'm still actively trying to work on it, but I've had a ******** of issues about my body and masculinity, and hearing stuff like "oh are you a twink? You look and sound so girly" doesn't really help. I mean, I guess it's flattering that they find it cute? But I worry that they'd expect me to crossdress or something that'd make me incredibly uneasy. That's actually a large part of why I don't classify myself as "looking", because I don't want bi guys hitting on me in that way.[/SPOILER]

In response to your last post Net, I do understand how you feel - both gay and straight people a lot of the time fear that bi men and women are always going to leave them for the gender that they're not getting. Nobody ever wants to play with us. :lol:

I mean, I'm actually more attracted to butch and androgynous women than femmes, and again, due to my orientation, they're the type that are least likely to want anything to do with me. But that doesn't mean that I want them to be men, because again, gender-conforming cis-men are definitely not my preferred type. (I was surprised that I did end up with the partner that I did, because I had never pictured myself as being in a relationship with a man... I view it more as, I'd be with my partner regardless of their gender).

Whoops, I'd better wrap this up as I'm just about to go out for a family dinner - but yeah, I do understand how you feel Net but you may find a lovely guy who just happens to be bi. :)

[Netkeeper]

Ah yes, thanks for the thread!

Oh, it isn't fear of being left or anything like that, because if I'm in a relationship with somebody I am secure; I wouldn't say yes to anybody if I was in an emotional state where I wouldn't be. I just don't like the emphasis on my body or mannerisms. That they're only with me because "I'm a guy that acts girly, best of both worlds", which isn't what I'm about at all. I probably wouldn't have too much issue with a bi dude that preferred guys. Bi dudes that prefer chicks tend to come off as pretty... dudebro-like, sometimes only liking guys that are really really feminine, and their secret wish is like, a futa or something. Nooo, not my type of guy, please don't message me :lol:

That said, I don't really think I HAVE a "type". Muscular guys look amazing, but so do slender, androgynous types. The only thing that really predisposes me towards attraction would be a high pitched, gentle, nurturing voice. Luckily there is no shortage of gay dudes that talk this way.

But on the topic of bisexuality, I do get that it's more about "liking someone regardless of gender" than it is "wanting both genders in your life". I feel really sorry for people that can't get this message through their heads, because that's where a large majority of biphobia and misunderstandings of the sexuality come from. And it REALLY is not a hard concept to get. Bisexuals aren't greedy, most of them are monogamous, and even if they aren't, polyamory isn't about being GREEDY. Polyamorous people don't do ANYTHING without full consent of EVERYONE they are in a relationship with.

[Eiko]

I sometimes wonder if my 11 year old is gay, not that it bothers me it he is. just the things he does could be a faze I suppose, but if it turns out he is I don't want him to be afraid to tell me or others when he is older. I love him not matter what.

[Zulithe]

Hi Eiko,

Probably won't be a big deal because you sound like you're prepared. I'm sure you've already taken in lots of advice through various sources on how to handle raising a potentially LGBT child and whatnot, so I won't condescend by offering suggestions ;)

And if he is, you just never know when he'll come out with it. Young people are doing it younger and younger these days. I just would not assume that it's some far off thing, if it indeed happens to be the case.

BTW just thought I should mention i'm gay so, glad we have a strong contingent of TMNT fans who can identify with these sorts of things.

[Netkeeper]

Well, if he is gay, he's not likely to say anything about it until he's in like, middle or high school or something. If you want him to feel comfortable, I'd make sure he knows you're for gay rights or something like that, but don't say it in a way that implies you're suspecting he's in the closet. If what I'm saying makes any sense.

I wasn't afraid of coming out to my dad because he got on his soapbox about gay rights all the time, getting angry about Prop 8 and stuff like that. It was really easy to find my dad's stance on a subject, because all you had to do was listen to him yell at the TV about it.

EDIT: Zulithe ninja'd me. And you're gay too! Awesome!

[Kanon]

I am a normal girl, who likes boys.
The only difference is that I would even be fine with Quasimodo as a boyfriend.
I don´t care about looks. :lol:
(I am also not the pretty type of girl, sooo)

[Eiko]

Hey thanks you guys. Zulithe, and Netkeeper,. I am ready for when or if it happens. I will stand by his side always. I really don't quite understand how so many people will shame or hate someone for being gay just really sad.

[Lethal Lullaby]

Ooh. Finally this thread has been made. :tlove:

I am bisexual. So I feel attracted to both genders. :tanime: I started getting into Yuri. Might watch Yaoi. :tshifty: In fact I've been finding out that many of my friend/aquiantances are gay, bi, or lesbian. :3 Plus a lesbian couple moved in the house next to us. :tgrin: They seem nice. Maybe my family could have them over for dinner one night. (As long as mom is comfortable with it. Still unsure of her viewpoint on homosexuals. :ohwell: )

[Redeemer]

This thread brings up bad memories of the "Volcanic Astroid" endeavor
:o hopefully it doesn't get too outrageous :lol:

[Prowler]

This thread brings up bad memories of the "Volcanic Astroid" endeavor
:o hopefully it doesn't get too outrageous :lol:
It's quite a shame there being no room to discuss these issues in the technodrome forums

[RaphAndDonnie]

I'm bisexual as well! Not only am I attracted to men and women but I'm also Ok with dating trans people as well. My ex-boyfriend was trans and he educated me on trans issues and all of that. I came out to my parents about a month ago as well and, to my surprise and delight, they accepted me (though they still mislabel me as a lesbian :ohwell: ) I'm also friends with some LGBT people in my real life and I even know an asexual person!

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

This looks like a great idea for a thread.

I'm straight, but I have been told a couple of times that I look Gay, so there's something:ohwell:

[Redeemer]

It's quite a shame there being no room to discuss these issues in the technodrome forums
The reason I don't agree with you.....

I'm straight and I love girls way too much to even think about a guy but I have no problem with homosexuals at all. One of my co-workers was gay and we all treated him like any other guy.

Of course being a straight guy like myself I enjoy lesbian porn or kissing in movies and TV. I know those girls aren't "real lesbians" as it's male gaze lesbianism but who cares?

Two girls kissing is two girls kissing.

Is this right here, we have younger member on this forum. When I joined I was a minor I believe, but I know we have definitely younger members. I think we just need to watch what we say on here. I don't mind discussing a topic like this and have no problem with it.
Its just little sentences like this we need to watch out for is all.

[CyberCubed]

Girls kissing on TV and movies is not adult oriented. It's for everyone.

If you're going to promote equality for gays than two girls kissing on TV is no big deal.

I await the day Disney gives us the first lesbian princess. Most people already think its Elsa.

[Turo602]

No mention of porn... Man, you're dumb.

[Katie]

Is this right here, we have younger member on this forum. When I joined I was a minor I believe, but I know we have definitely younger members. I think we just need to watch what we say on here. I don't mind discussing a topic like this and have no problem with it.
Its just little sentences like this we need to watch out for is all.

Ah see, Cyber Cubed is an adult, he just acts like a child for the negative attention.

I'm straight as straight can be, but I say do what you want. Just be honest with people up front if you are trans. Know a girl who was dating and in love with a guy who turned out to still have girl plumbing. Since she's not a lesbian she broke it off and never really got over it. Never seen someone so hurt before in my life. They were together for a year and a half and he didn't care enough to be honest before things went to far.

[Redeemer]

Girls kissing on TV and movies is not adult oriented. It's for everyone.

If you're going to promote equality for gays than two girls kissing on TV is no big deal.

I await the day Disney gives us the first lesbian princess. Most people already think its Elsa. I didn't mean to underline the tv part, but I hope you get the point.

No mention of porn... Man, you're dumb.
Exactly

Ah see, Cyber Cubed is an adult, he just acts like a child for the negative attention.

I'm straight as straight can be, but I say do what you want. Just be honest with people up front if you are trans. Know a girl who was dating and in love with a guy who turned out to still have girl plumbing. Since she's not a lesbian she broke it off and never really got over it. Never seen someone so hurt before in my life. They were together for a year and a half and he didn't care enough to be honest before things went to far.
Literally laughed out loud at that one. (Underlined)

The rest of the post is pretty depressing :cry:
I can only imagine how shocked she was, embarrassed, heart broke ect...

[CyberCubed]

As far as I know the only younger user on this forum is snake. Which surprises me he is only 12, I thought he was about 15 from reading his posts. His posts are very mature for his age.

[pennydreadful]

Ooh. Finally this thread has been made. :tlove:

I am bisexual. So I feel attracted to both genders. :tanime: I started getting into Yuri. Might watch Yaoi. :tshifty: In fact I've been finding out that many of my friend/aquiantances are gay, bi, or lesbian. :3 Plus a lesbian couple moved in the house next to us. :tgrin: They seem nice. Maybe my family could have them over for dinner one night. (As long as mom is comfortable with it. Still unsure of her viewpoint on homosexuals. :ohwell: )

Hey, you're in good company - I was into yaoi before I started getting into yuri... I am an absolute yaoi fiend!!! Not as familiar with yuri, but maybe we could swap some suggestions? Do you like Strawberry Panic?

This thread brings up bad memories of the "Volcanic Astroid" endeavor
:o hopefully it doesn't get too outrageous :lol:

The reason I don't agree with you.....

Is this right here, we have younger member on this forum. When I joined I was a minor I believe, but I know we have definitely younger members. I think we just need to watch what we say on here. I don't mind discussing a topic like this and have no problem with it.
Its just little sentences like this we need to watch out for is all.

Ah, I didn't know that there had been a Volcanic Asteroid attempt at this type of thread - though I did check the Disintegrator Unit. I think we can make the thread work as long as everyone is respectful and age-appropriate in their posts - obviously we shouldn't talk about porn, fetishes or particular kinks but general discussion about our identities, fears and experiences shouldn't hurt.


Also Eiko, you are wonderful - I wish there were more people out there like you. :) However your son ends up identifying, it's good to know that he will have a loving and supportive parent - and trust me, that makes a really big difference.

[Lethal Lullaby]

Hey, you're in good company - I was into yaoi before I started getting into yuri... I am an absolute yaoi fiend!!! Not as familiar with yuri, but maybe we could swap some suggestions? Do you like Strawberry Panic?


Heck yeah! I think it's so cute. :tlove: Another one i liked was "Sasameki Koto" :tgrin:

[HotNunchuckFury]

I'm heterosexual, so not had to worry about this for myself, but I've seen what challenges my younger brother has faced. My brother is bisexual and once explained it to me that he wanted to fall in love with the right person despite their gender. He started dating a guy last year and it's his first serious relationship despite the fact he's approaching his 30's. He was worried about what our parents would say but their response has been brilliant (they've known deep down since his teens - when it didn't sit too well with them - but none of them had dared bring the subject up with each other since). Now my brother seems happier than ever and his partner is an awesome guy who has quickly become a part of our family. I'm so pleased for them both. I'll never understand why some people in this world think it is ok for them to dictate to others who they can and cannot love. I am a mother of two young boys and it honestly would not bother me if one day they reveal they are straight, gay or bi, as long as they are safe and happy.

[pennydreadful]

Heck yeah! I think it's so cute. :tlove: Another one i liked was "Sasameki Koto" :tgrin:

I haven't tried that one, I'll have to check it out.

I'm heterosexual, so not had to worry about this for myself, but I've seen what challenges my younger brother has faced. My brother is bisexual and once explained it to me that he wanted to fall in love with the right person despite their gender. He started dating a guy last year and it's his first serious relationship despite the fact he's approaching his 30's. He was worried about what our parents would say but their response has been brilliant (they've known deep down since his teens - when it didn't sit too well with them - but none of them had dared bring the subject up with each other since). Now my brother seems happier than ever and his partner is an awesome guy who has quickly become a part of our family. I'm so pleased for them both. I'll never understand why some people in this world think it is ok for them to dictate to others who they can and cannot love. I am a mother of two young boys and it honestly would not bother me if one day they reveal they are straight, gay or bi, as long as they are safe and happy.

Glad your brother is doing well and is in a happy relationship. :) I have read that bi men and women have a much higher rate of depression and anxiety; sources for anyone who's interested:

http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Health_Services/Health_Education/lgbtq_health/bisexual_health/health_concerns_for_bisexuals.php

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb02/newdata.aspx

http://www.buzzfeed.com/annanorth/bisexual-women-almost-twice-as-likely-to-be-abused

[pennydreadful]

But on the topic of bisexuality, I do get that it's more about "liking someone regardless of gender" than it is "wanting both genders in your life". I feel really sorry for people that can't get this message through their heads, because that's where a large majority of biphobia and misunderstandings of the sexuality come from. And it REALLY is not a hard concept to get. Bisexuals aren't greedy, most of them are monogamous, and even if they aren't, polyamory isn't about being GREEDY. Polyamorous people don't do ANYTHING without full consent of EVERYONE they are in a relationship with.

Actually, I was thinking about this... I thought the difference between bi and pansexuality is that gender does factor into a bi person's attractions, whereas pan people are attracted to the person rather than the gender? Or am I getting it wrong? Can anyone else weigh in on this?

Also I know that there are some people who identify as bi who are attracted to people outside the male/female binaries, and then there are others who aren't... so I think that there are definitely some individual interpretations when it comes to identity.

As I said, it made it really hard for me to work out where I stood, cuz I just didn't feel like I fit under any of the umbrellas. In my partner's case, gender doesn't matter to me, but as a rule, gender does factor into my attractions, as does their orientation and whether they're gender-conforming. Add to that the fact that my attractions differ depending on whether I'm feeling male/female/neither and yeah, it just gets waaaay confusing trying to work out where you fit on the chart! (e.g. On days where I feel male, I'm far more attracted to male-bodied persons than on days where I feel female). Then you throw in body dysmorphia as well (which I have quite regularly) and I end up trying to work out if I'm attracted to someone's body, or if I just want to look like them, or both.

http://funsubstance.com/uploads/gif/95/95917.gif

[HayaMika]

Yay! A thread where i know its safe to express myself~ ;w;

I'm Asexual-Panromantic and hella proud of it... just wish my mom wasn't so pushy about how she says I will someday want to... do it (for a lack of a better way to say it cause idk what I would be allowed to say here...) and that I can't be asexual and date...

You can be asexual and still date, people. Love isn't just about what you do in your private time or in bed...

[psychturtle]

Glad that this thread exists! One of the biggest sources of health is having an accepting network of people with genuine understanding. I am always open to learn more from the LGBT members. Thanks for being open and honest with your narratives.

[pennydreadful]

Glad that this thread exists! One of the biggest sources of health is having an accepting network of people with genuine understanding. I am always open to learn more from the LGBT members. Thanks for being open and honest with your narratives.

I'm just glad that I haven't weirded anyone out so far/made anyone feel uncomfortable! :tlol: And if I do, I apologize; it's definitely not my intention - I promise, I'm not scary! Just a bit unusual. :tgrin:

Mika, you were one of the people who motivated me to create this thread - I thought some people here might not have a place to talk and could use one. And I mean hey, it's a way for us to all get to know each other a bit better too!

[Netkeeper]

I am an absolute yaoi fiend!!!
http://i.imgur.com/w1eIJMt.gif

Actually, I was thinking about this... I thought the difference between bi and pansexuality is that gender does factor into a bi person's attractions, whereas pan people are attracted to the person rather than the gender? Or am I getting it wrong? Can anyone else weigh in on this?

Also I know that there are some people who identify as bi who are attracted to people outside the male/female binaries, and then there are others who aren't... so I think that there are definitely some individual interpretations when it comes to identity.

As I said, it made it really hard for me to work out where I stood, cuz I just didn't feel like I fit under any of the umbrellas. In my partner's case, gender doesn't matter to me, but as a rule, gender does factor into my attractions, as does their orientation and whether they're gender-conforming. Add to that the fact that my attractions differ depending on whether I'm feeling male/female/neither and yeah, it just gets waaaay confusing trying to work out where you fit on the chart! (e.g. On days where I feel male, I'm far more attracted to male-bodied persons than on days where I feel female). Then you throw in body dysmorphia as well (which I have quite regularly) and I end up trying to work out if I'm attracted to someone's body, or if I just want to look like them, or both.

http://funsubstance.com/uploads/gif/95/95917.gif
I did some looking on a bi friend's blog, and came across this (http://actual-bisexual-raphael-hamato.tumblr.com/post/77162359643/definitelyevil-youretheunbreakableheart-i) useful statement:

Pansexuality and bisexuality are different labels for the same area of attraction, the difference is in the social implication of the word.

Bisexual was the first term to ever be used for non-monosexuals, but pansexuality makes a deliberate statement about the gender spectrum. That’s the difference, and that’s the only difference.
This seems to hold true to when I first started hearing more people using the word "pansexual" as opposed to "bisexual", as they'd often couple it with "it means I'm attracted to boys, girls, and in-betweens" or something along those lines. Their use was to emphasize inclusivity.

That said, from personal experience I do notice the trend that people that identify as bisexual are more inclined towards gender-based attraction whereas people that identify as pansexual don't so much.

Also, I just wanted to say that I too have the occasional mixup of "do I want to BE this guy or be ****ed by this guy" moment. It's only slightly annoying until I think about said guy being with another really attractive dude. Then it becomes overwhelmingly fun to think about! :V

[HayaMika]

This seems to hold true to when I first started hearing more people using the word "pansexual" as opposed to "bisexual", as they'd often couple it with "it means I'm attracted to boys, girls, and in-betweens" or something along those lines. Their use was to emphasize inclusivity.

That said, from personal experience I do notice the trend that people that identify as bisexual are more inclined towards gender-based attraction whereas people that identify as pansexual don't so much.

Also, I just wanted to say that I too have the occasional mixup of "do I want to BE this guy or be ****ed by this guy" moment. It's only slightly annoying until I think about said guy being with another really attractive dude. Then it becomes overwhelmingly fun to think about! :V

As a Panromantic (Asexual) I can safely say that I love another person not for their sex or genitalia but for who they are... I don't give a dip if they are male, female, transitioning male to female (or vice versa), bigendered, agendered or whatever. If they are a good, kind hearted person with a great attitude and they liked me and I liked them back then there is a good chance I would date them. (Only problem is if they are sexual... I won't be able to give them that experience and that would be hard...)


Mika, you were one of the people who motivated me to create this thread - I thought some people here might not have a place to talk and could use one. And I mean hey, it's a way for us to all get to know each other a bit better too!

Ahhh! I'm glad I was part of your motivation to make this! It definitely was a great idea on your part! >w<

[shuriken]

Flaming heterosexual here :lol:
But comfortable enough to be around gay folks.
3 of my coolest most awesome cousins are gay and super down to earth and just a blast to be around.
As for the Volcanic Asteroid we all just too it too far (myself included) where it all sort of became religious bashing and about sexual practices. Most of the posters here seem a bit more level headed in that regard.

[pennydreadful]

As for the Volcanic Asteroid we all just too it too far (myself included) where it all sort of became religious bashing and about sexual practices. Most of the posters here seem a bit more level headed in that regard.

Ah - yeah, I think it'd be better if we tried to steer clear of that! I mean, my feeling is that if the topic of non-hetero peeps makes someone uncomfortable for whatever reason, they might be better off just avoiding this thread.

Maybe we could just agree to just make any discussion of whether it's right or wrong a no-go zone? I dunno, I think everyone's managed to be pretty cool-headed about it so far. :)

Also, thanks for weighing in on the pan/bi thing Mika and Net!

[psychturtle]

Ah - yeah, I think it'd be better if we tried to steer clear of that! I mean, my feeling is that if the topic of non-hetero peeps makes someone uncomfortable for whatever reason, they might be better off just avoiding this thread.

Maybe we could just agree to just make any discussion of whether it's right or wrong a no-go zone? I dunno, I think everyone's managed to be pretty cool-headed about it so far. :)

Also, thanks for weighing in on the pan/bi thing Mika and Net!

I agree. Anytime values and beliefs get involved, things turn into a torrent of shout.

I'd say the reality is that if some may be a little uncomfortable, they will be able to learn and grow from discussions like these. I'm happy that you guys are being open.

[BubblyShell22]

I'm a straight girl here, but I have no problem with people being gay, bi, or whatever you want to be as long as you're happy. I hate the stigma that if you're in a relationship it seems like you have to be married and have kids and if you aren't, then it's wrong and there's no point in being in a relationship at all. I'm never getting married or having kids, and I'm okay with that as is my BF. As long as people are happy, I don't care what you do with your life. Yeah, I did have issues with my sister living with a guy, but the only reason for that is because I didn't know him well and wasn't sure who he was as a person and if he would respect her or not. If I had gotten a chance to know him better, I would have been okay with it, just as I was okay with her living with her current husband before they got married because she introduced him properly to the family so I was able to get to know him. Of course, things changed when she married him and he became a complete a**hole to her, but that's a whole other can of worms right there.

So my whole stance on it is this: Do what you're comfortable with. I don't care if you have sex outside of marriage as long as it's consensual and not for money, and I don't care if you're straight, gay, bi, or whatever. I accept all of you Dromers because you're all nice people.

Edit: And I even have a cousin who's a lesbian, and she's still my cousin regardless of who she is. My aunt was afraid to tell my mom for fear of her reaction, but my mom assured her that she wasn't upset about it and that she accepted it without question despite the fact that she's Catholic (as is my aunt).

[ObiWanFan4life]

^ Exactly. As long as the two people in a relationship are happy and aren't hurting anyone else, it shouldn't matter.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

I hate people who use the word 'Gay' as an Insult.

[ObiWanFan4life]

I hate people who use the word 'Gay' as an Insult.

Same here, just like when people misuse 'Retarded' or 'Queer'.

[Netkeeper]

I hate people who use the word 'Gay' as an Insult.
That's one of the worst. Ugh.

[Redeemer]

Ah, I didn't know that there had been a Volcanic Asteroid attempt at this type of thread - though I did check the Disintegrator Unit. I think we can make the thread work as long as everyone is respectful and age-appropriate in their posts - obviously we shouldn't talk about porn, fetishes or particular kinks but general discussion about our identities, fears and experiences shouldn't hurt.

Volcanic astroid was a sub-forum where just about any mature material could be discussed, but quickly got out of hand and unethical many times. I think this thread is perfectly appropriate, just have to watch what we say.
I want to point that out to make sure it people didn't infer I was damning the thread.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

Volcanic astroid was a sub-forum where just about any mature material could be discussed, but quickly got out of hand and unethical many times. I think this thread is perfectly appropriate, just have to watch what we say.
I want to point that out to make sure it people didn't infer I was damning the thread.

As long as we don't describe things in great detail or insult other people, I think this thread will be fine.

[Hannurdock]

Bi and proud :D

I like someone for who they are, not what equipment they've got.

I'm with a fella, but as someone stated earlier, gender is irrelevant to me.

[HotNunchuckFury]

Glad your brother is doing well and is in a happy relationship. :) I have read that bi men and women have a much higher rate of depression and anxiety; sources for anyone who's interested:

http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Health_Services/Health_Education/lgbtq_health/bisexual_health/health_concerns_for_bisexuals.php

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb02/newdata.aspx

http://www.buzzfeed.com/annanorth/bisexual-women-almost-twice-as-likely-to-be-abused

Thanks, me too, he deserves it. And cheers for the links. It's so sad reading about the devastation caused by the prejudices of others. Hopefully this thread can be a positive source of support for those who need it.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

That's one of the worst. Ugh.

Even though I hate it so much, I do find it funny when someone says something like "what, are you gay?" then the person replies "yeah, I am actually"

I find things like that funny :lol:

[pennydreadful]

So my whole stance on it is this: Do what you're comfortable with. I don't care if you have sex outside of marriage as long as it's consensual and not for money, and I don't care if you're straight, gay, bi, or whatever. I accept all of you Dromers because you're all nice people.

Just weighing in on the "for money" thing; I don't have any issue with sex workers as long as they're happy with what they're doing. Some people are miserable doing it, or doing it for the wrong reasons, or horribly exploited - but there are some sex workers out there who are very with it and cool and have it together. I think it depends on the person and their circumstances.

I hate people who use the word 'Gay' as an Insult.

Totally - I usually just respond in a total deadpan tone: "Yes, X is very homosexual."

Volcanic astroid was a sub-forum where just about any mature material could be discussed, but quickly got out of hand and unethical many times. I think this thread is perfectly appropriate, just have to watch what we say.
I want to point that out to make sure it people didn't infer I was damning the thread.

Oh no, not at all. I think it can definitely work, and I think that people who just can't get down with the reality of non-het or non-cis persons would be respectful enough to just not read/not post if anything here goes against their beliefs too much. Again, assuming that their opinions don't change after reading some of the entries here. :) We are all human, at the end of the day. Sometimes people are scared because things are different, or because they don't understand - but as I said before, nobody here is scary, or trying to convert anyone!

So out of the people here who are non-het, how many of you are out? (If you're comfortable sharing; you definitely don't have to answer if you don't want to!)

[BubblyShell22]

Well, Penny, I guess it's different because you live in a country where it's actually legal to do that whereas I live in a country where it's illegal to do it, so my stance on it is different than yours. I just think it's wrong because it's illegal to do it here, but if it was perfectly legal, that would be a different thing.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I'm a straight female all the way, but I am glad to see a discussion like this here. I have known many gay. lesbian, and bi folks in my life, and in fact, I have a cousin who came out lesbian just a few years ago and is now in a good relationship. Add to that the same-sex couple who are good friends of mine and who were great enough to adopt my daughter when she was born, (I had already decided on open adoption as the best course, given our circumstances at the time, and which I'm glad I did then, considering recent health issues with my other half.) and the number of non-heteros I've worked with (I swear, my workplace seems to attract ALL kinds in droves, LOL!!), I am confident in saying I'm completely comfortable with the idea of gay, bi, or whatever anyone identifies as. In fact, I've grown far more aware of the problems such folks face in the last few years, mainly due to seeing how my daughter's mommies have had to deal with various issues. Fortunately, they live in a state that allows same-sex marriage, which is great.

[Mayhem]

I hate people who use the word 'Gay' as an Insult.
If you play Xbox Live, like I do, you occasionally get that sadly. I usually respond with "yes, I am quite happy as it turns out!". Confuses the hell out of most people, especially those whose balls haven't dropped yet...

(if you're still confused, go look the ORIGINAL definition of the word)

[Netkeeper]

Well, Penny, I guess it's different because you live in a country where it's actually legal to do that whereas I live in a country where it's illegal to do it, so my stance on it is different than yours. I just think it's wrong because it's illegal to do it here, but if it was perfectly legal, that would be a different thing.
Not all sex work is outlawed, and not all states outlaw it. Nevada, outside of Clark County, is cool with prostitution, for instance, but prostitution isn't the only sex-based work somebody can do.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

I know one man (through Deviantart) who admitted that his lifestyle was to have casual sex with whatever woman he could find, and the occasional man. No, I am not making this up, and I don't get the impression he was pulling my leg. He even admitted his financial situation had gotten so desperate he was seriously considering prostituting himself for money. (Not the case anymore.)

[pennydreadful]

Well, Penny, I guess it's different because you live in a country where it's actually legal to do that whereas I live in a country where it's illegal to do it, so my stance on it is different than yours. I just think it's wrong because it's illegal to do it here, but if it was perfectly legal, that would be a different thing.

Ah sorry Bubbly, for some reason I did think it was legal in some states? I might be confused. :ohwell: I've gotta be honest, there are some laws that I think... maybe it doesn't make you a bad person not to follow (like, the sodomy laws in some countries, kind of situation - I would break that law every day and twice on Sundays :lol:). But I do understand that the purpose of the prostitution laws is to prevent women and men from being exploited - and that I'm totally down with. :) So we're in agreement there.

Hopefully I didn't go too off-topic with that one! ;)

[Hannurdock]

In the past, people used the word 'gay' for describing happiness.

[Netkeeper]

Ah sorry Bubbly, for some reason I did think it was legal in some states?
Like I said upthread, Nevada's cool with it outside of one single county. I don't know if any other states legalize it, though, and I only know about Nevada because I used to live there.

[PAAATE]

But I do understand that the purpose of the prostitution laws is to prevent women and men from being exploited

Ironically, wouldn't it be better if it was legal, so prostitutes could have the same level of job safety as other legal jobs? :p It's not like prostitution will ever disappear. Might just as well legalize it to protect the men and women involved.

But re the topic, I'm hetero but idgaf what other people do. That's their business. Gay rights are important, and educating people on the gender spectrum is important so there's no shame involved in feeling different or whatever. Since it's not a shameful thing.
__________

ETA: I don't care about people using "gay" in a negative context, though. It's just a word, like slut, ******, ****, bitch, dickhead, whatever. They're powerful words, but words are just symbols, and symbols can lose their power if people use them right, and making them lose their power would somewhat lessen the ability for hatred to spread. Like the swastika, where in the west, it's obviously seen as a bad thing, but in the east - as well as in the west before the 1930s - it's a symbol of luck, and has been for thousands of years. Reclaiming it as a symbol of luck would seriously weaken modern-day nazism, cos they would lose their strongest symbol. Or at least that's my thought on the whole thing... People being afraid of words actually makes them more powerful as symbols of hate.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Ironically, wouldn't it be better if it was legal, so prostitutes could have the same level of job safety as other legal jobs? :p It's not like prostitution will ever disappear. Might just as well legalize it to protect the men and women involved.

Forget it. Legalizing prostitution won't make it safer or stop exploitation, as experiences in places where prostitution is legal have invariably proved. That's why it was made illegal to being with.

People drink and drive even though they know it's illegal and dangerous. Should we just legalize that, too?

[PAAATE]

Forget it. Legalizing prostitution won't make it safer or stop exploitation, as experiences in places where prostitution is legal have invariably proved. That's why it was made illegal to being with.

People drink and drive even though they know it's illegal and dangerous. Should we just legalize that, too?

Yeah, I'm not gonna derail this topic even more with this discussion. Reply in PM incoming.

[BubblyShell22]

I didn't know prostitution was legal in Nevada except for Clark County. However, I understand why they do make it illegal because it's pretty much dangerous to do, and too many females get hurt doing it. But having said that, I know it won't stop people from doing it if they feel that they need to, just as the laws against drinking and driving and even drugs don't stop people from using them.

[plastroncafe]

I self identify as cisgendered and bisexual, for what that's worth.

[Netkeeper]

I don't care about people using "gay" in a negative context, though. It's just a word, like slut, ******, ****, bitch, dickhead, whatever. They're powerful words, but words are just symbols, and symbols can lose their power if people use them right, and making them lose their power would somewhat lessen the ability for hatred to spread. Like the swastika, where in the west, it's obviously seen as a bad thing, but in the east - as well as in the west before the 1930s - it's a symbol of luck, and has been for thousands of years. Reclaiming it as a symbol of luck would seriously weaken modern-day nazism, cos they would lose their strongest symbol. Or at least that's my thought on the whole thing... People being afraid of words actually makes them more powerful as symbols of hate.
I honestly believe the best way to do this is to teach people to stop using the words, first, before any reclamation can be made because so many people associate these words with violent attacks on their person. There's a reason why N-bombing, three-letter-F-bombing, and the transgender slur which must not be named are all very harmful words. I've met many people that have violent memories associated with those words and hearing them in any context whatsoever can be greatly upsetting. And that needs to be respected -- people just plain need to be taught that those are NOT okay words to say, and why.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

I honestly believe the best way to do this is to teach people to stop using the words, first, before any reclamation can be made because so many people associate these words with violent attacks on their person. There's a reason why N-bombing, three-letter-F-bombing, and the transgender slur which must not be named are all very harmful words. I've met many people that have violent memories associated with those words and hearing them in any context whatsoever can be greatly upsetting. And that needs to be respected -- people just plain need to be taught that those are NOT okay words to say, and why.

Unfortunately many people deliberately use words they are taught are not okay to use, simply to cause trouble.

[Netkeeper]

Yes, but if these words fall out of usage, the amount of people that do things like that will steadily decrease.

[BubblyShell22]

I agree that some of these words need to stop being used, but it's up to people to learn not to use them at all. Same goes with the N word. If it's so offensive, then don't use it at all not even as a term of endearment.

[plastroncafe]

As with most things, context is everything. In many cases it's not the word that's the problem, but the meaning behind it.

Gay isn't in and of itself a slur, but it can be when used in a context where it equates to "bad" or "less than."

The same can be said of a lot of things. "Girl" for instance. There's nothing inherently wrong with the word girl, or being a girl. But throw like a girl, and suddenly being a girl is something you want to avoid. Run like a girl, the same thing. Then there's people who use "girl" as a way to belittle grown women.

Telling people they can't use the word "girl" would be ludicrous. The issue isn't the word girl, it's the context and usage of the word.

[shuriken]

^^ This a hundred percent.
Same thing with boy. In context it could be good "This is my boy right here" or negative "He's just a boy he can't hang" or whatever.
But using gay as an insult always annoys me.

[pennydreadful]

Plastron's right on the money, as usual - it's not necessarily the word, it's the intent behind it. When a word is used in a contemptuous context, it's irritating.

I do agree that words only have as much power as you give them, but the ugliness behind the usage of some of them is just really grotesque to me.

Myself, I've got zero issues referring to myself as "dykey". And if someone called me one (in fact, it's been shouted at me in a non-flattering manner on more than one occasion)... I'm fairly impervious to it, tbh. It's like... yeah, I sleep with women. And? What's your point? It's pretty hard for me to be affected by name-calling at this stage in my life - all that matters is what I think of myself.

On the other hand, slurs being used against other people really frosts my flakes, and I would burr up in defense of someone else being called a dyke if it were said in an aggressive or derogatory way.

Again, it really comes down to the intent in most cases, but there are some words that just have so much of a history of being used in a negative and ugly way that they'd be nigh-impossible to reclaim, and therefore would be better off just being removed from circulation. Not that I think that'll ever happen. :ohwell:

[Leo656]

Weird thing that happened to my wife on Facebook yesterday/today that got me thinking, so I just thought I'd throw it out here. So, my wife is a HUGE Xena fan. I've watched it, it's an OK show, I have no problem with it, I just wouldn't want to watch it every day. So, anyway, right from the beginning, I think it's pretty obvious that there's a ton of subtext in that show. I mean, a viewer could take or leave what they want from it, but there's definitely some heavy stuff "implied" between Xena and Gabrielle. Which is fine - I actually think it makes the show a lot more interesting, honestly - but it's definitely there. I've even seen Lucy Lawless say in several interviews that she purposely portrayed Xena that way, and that her interpretation, Xena and Gabrielle were lovers. Again, all that's fine.

So, anyways, my wife apparently "Liked" a Xena page on FB, and - huge shock, I know - it's predominantly made up of lesbian Xena fans. Which, again, is fine. So, apparently, they were all talking about some scene with Xena and Gabrielle that could either be just a sweet moment between friends, OR, "concrete proof" that they're lovers, depending on your interpretation. So, my wife apparently innocently commented, "Well, it COULD just be a sweet moment between friends," and now she's being accused of intolerance based on that one comment. Apparently it got so bad that the page's owner or whatever had to step in and tell everyone to calm down.

I just found it unsettling that a group of people who spend much of their day talking about tolerance, could be so quick to call someone else intolerant, without knowing them, based on the fact that they choose not to "read" a scene in a TV show as "gay". Does that happen a lot? Because if they'd been patient enough to ask, they'd know my wife is super-cool with lesbians. Her only problem with it as relates to Xena is that it's become such a damn cliche, so in her "head-canon", she chooses not to interpret things that way.

I'unno, just got me thinking, since it just happened and I happened to be skimming threads. ((Shrug))

[Casey]

I don't really have much to contribute to this thread at the moment, but I'd just like to say that I am thankful for it being here.

[plastroncafe]

Sounds to me like those women on the Xena Thread react much the same way ANY group that loves something reacts when someone has a different interpretation of accepted canon.

Xena is one of the few SuperText queer shows out there, so fans of it in the queer spectrum are fiercely protective of it.

[Leo656]

Is it "accepted canon" that Xena and Gabrielle are gay, though? I mean, it's obvious that it's implied on purpose so that it's there if you want it to be. I think that's one of that show's strengths, is that a person can read things in different ways based on their own preference to characters, situations, etc. But is it "wrong" if a viewer says they prefer a "straight" interpretation for their own reasons? In my wife's case, she pretty much accepted that it's in there - she's got her own huge crush on Lawless anyways - but she just got wore out from the last 15 years of oh-so-obvious "jokes" people make at the show's expense. Having made a lot of them myself, I can't say I blame her.

She was just taken aback by how quickly she was ganged up on and called a bigot simply for saying a scene could be open to interpretation. :ohwell:

[plastroncafe]

Really? Because...that's the exact reaction I'd expect to have if I went into what one could argue is a marginalized safe space and tried to impart my personal interpretation of well established canon.

That's exactly what happens to me when I do that kind of thing.

[Leo656]

What I'm asking is, is it fully "established", or just heavily implied? Because if it's the latter, then people could relax a little.

[pennydreadful]

Well, Lawless herself said she felt that the relationship between Xena and Gabrielle was "definitely gay... there was always a 'well, she might be or she might not be' but when there was that drip of water passing between their lips in the very final scene, that cemented it for me. Now it wasn't just that Xena was bisexual and kinda liked her gal pal and they kind of fooled around sometimes, it was 'Nope, they're married, man."

(Complete link to the full article here: http://www.lucylawless.net/articles/lesnews03/index.html)

So while the writers of the show always kept it ambiguous as to whether it was a definite yes or a no, Lawless saying that she considers the two to be in a relationship pretty much canonized it for the fan community, IMO.

[Rooish]

I swear I'm not making this up. I saw an episode of Xena where Gabrielle was unconscious or in trouble or something and Xena saved her and held Gabrielle in her arms and they kissed passionately. Was this is an alternate reality on the show or something? I thought it was like the series finale and basically confirmed they were lovers, but maybe it was an alternate reality.

As for me, a lesbian here. I used to be bi--like, I came out as bi and genuinely had crushes on guys--but this petered out. So people don't just come out as bi to test the waters or to sit on the fence.

As for gender identity, I am a cisgender woman and was raised in an incredible non-gendered way by my parents; pretty much exactly the same as my brother. My partner identifies as genderqueer, which some people state means not identifying as either gender. However she identifies as a woman but presents in a lot of ways as a boi or androgynous. She would be okay being referred to as "she/her" or "they." Outside of the queer community, people do not really "get" her gender expression and she sometimes thinks it would be easier to be a trans man because, despite the horrible societal violence against trans people, most people understand trans-ness more than genderqueer-ness. Not sure what that would do to my sexual orientation if I identify as a lesbian and my partner started identifying as a man...

[CyberCubed]

Am I the only one who never knew there were so many terms to sexuality? Besides being straight or gay/lesbian, I knew there were bisexuals but that's about it.

Where did pansexual, asexual, for humans etc...all come from? Its almost like every day people are making up some new sexual term out of nowhere. Seriously, is this stuff created by lonely people on livejournals and tumblr?

[plastroncafe]

Maybe it's not us who have to get out more, Cyber.
Maybe it's you.

[Candy Kappa]

Am I the only one who never knew there were so many terms to sexuality? Besides being straight or gay/lesbian, I knew there were bisexuals but that's about it.

Where did pansexual, asexual, for humans etc...all come from? Its almost like every day people are making up some new sexual term out of nowhere. Seriously, is this stuff created by lonely people on livejournals and tumblr?

Just look the terms up and you'll know what they mean. :roll:

[CyberCubed]

Maybe it's not us who have to get out more, Cyber.
Maybe it's you.

Its because in real life I've never heard of these terms. The only reason I've come across them is online on various forums or in online communities.

When people in real life describe their sexuality its either straight, gay/lesbian, or sometimes bisexual. And that's really all you need. Now all of a sudden a whole bunch of other sexual terms have popped up because people feel the need to identify themselves as something different.

Demisexual, pansexual, asexual, where is this all coming from? Its like being gay or lesbian isn't just a "thing" anymore that people have to go further and come up with this other stuff.

[PAAATE]

Am I the only one who never knew there were so many terms to sexuality? Besides being straight or gay/lesbian, I knew there were bisexuals but that's about it.

Where did pansexual, asexual, for humans etc...all come from? Its almost like every day people are making up some new sexual term out of nowhere. Seriously, is this stuff created by lonely people on livejournals and tumblr?

Gender spectrum, sexuality spectrum... I saw a great documentary about this on Swedish TV. Can't remember the name. I think it was a BBC production, or maybe PBS. You should read up on it either way, because it's actual science.

[plastroncafe]

Those words might be all you need, but...there's more to this life than what you need. And many people don't feel as though the heterosexual/homosexual binary applies to them.

Much the same way that there are some people who don't believe the gender binary of male/female applies to them.

You don't have to understand it, nor do you have to approve of it, but it'd be damn nice if you were at least polite about it in a thread dedicated to it.

[pennydreadful]

Just ignore Cubed; after giving the matter a great deal of thought, I've come to the conclusion that most of what he says is just to get a reaction. :roll:

Rooish, I definitely understand what you mean about there not being a lot of understanding of genderqueerness (or genderfluidity, for that matter). Myself, I've always had a really hard time trying to explain it in a way that doesn't make me sound like I have multiple personalities. :lol:

I've got to say, it's pretty cool to see how many non-het persons and allies we have on the board and joining the discussion! :)

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Bet you people are going to love THIS story. (http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/BornHermaphrodite/)

[Katie]

You probably shouldn't bring a post you name "you people..."

Kinda disrespectful.

Also don't get the point of posting the story......not like they are the only person in the world with that.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

You probably shouldn't bring a post you name "you people..."

Kinda disrespectful.

Also don't get the point of posting the story......not like they are the only person in the world with that.

But the thread was talking about gender fluidity, so here's one real life example.

[pennydreadful]

Thanks for contributing Chi-ha - but for future reference, "hey everyone" or "check this out, y'all" would probably be a better word choice than "you people". I don't think anyone on earth enjoys being referred to as "you people", be they black, or gay, or soccer fans or people who really really like scrapbooking. :)

[pennydreadful]

Ok, so I've gotta vent here... I'm doing my usual round of blog checks for the morning and see that there's yet another video up of a trans woman being physically assaulted (I'm not going to link it as it might be triggering, but it's easily found on Google).

It makes me so mad that this kind of thing happens, and continues to happen on a regular basis. Trans people get ragged on for "going stealth", get painted as being dishonest for doing so - is it any wonder when people who are openly trans, or who can't pass, regularly have to fear for their lives?

The levels of violence that trans and gay/lesbian/queer persons in general have to face is absolutely disgusting. What the actual hell is wrong with people???

#endrant

[Netkeeper]

Its because in real life I've never heard of these terms. The only reason I've come across them is online on various forums or in online communities.
Have you ever been apart of any community that had a sizeable LGBT following? Honest question, not sarcasm; you might not know much about it due to that reason. I first learned about pansexuality and the genderqueer community offline, around 2009 in Las Vegas. I was friends with a lot of the LGBT youth and some of the LGBT adults there as well. Those are the people that are going to know more about those type of things and where you can expect to run into those terms, online or offline.

It makes me so mad that this kind of thing happens, and continues to happen on a regular basis. Trans people get ragged on for "going stealth", get painted as being dishonest for doing so - is it any wonder when people who are openly trans, or who can't pass, regularly have to fear for their lives?

The levels of violence that trans and gay/lesbian/queer persons in general have to face is absolutely disgusting. What the actual hell is wrong with people???

#endrant
When I lived in Washington I saw a photo a trans boy posted of himself after getting beaten by a cis guy of over 6 feet in height that repeatedly hurled slurs at him; all within driving distance of my current location. It was downright terrifying.

I remember having to explain the concept of a trans person going stealth to my aunt once, since it was a concept that she just couldn't wrap her head around. She had no idea trans people even got beaten on such a regular basis like that. But it still happens everywhere. It's getting safer, but it's still so, so dangerous to be 'out' in public if you're trans.

[pennydreadful]

Yeah, I wasn't really aware of the term "pan" until maybe three or four years ago - I don't know how long the term has been around.

I find that kind of violence towards queer and trans persons appalling - I just absolutely cannot understand it, I don't get it, I cannot be anything but repulsed by that level of ugliness. It's one of the reasons I find Boys Don't Cry so hard to watch; it's a great movie but I just get so upset. I watch movies to escape, so I find it really hard to watch sexual violence in particular, or reminders of what a rotten place the world can be. I was down in the mouth for nearly a whole two days after watching The Stoning of Soroya M, and I still haven't gotten around to watching Soldier's Girl because I know when I do, it's just going to totally bum me out.

I'm a sensitive dewdrop... :ohwell:

[Casey]

Am I the only one who never knew there were so many terms to sexuality? Besides being straight or gay/lesbian, I knew there were bisexuals but that's about it.

Where did pansexual, asexual, for humans etc...all come from? Its almost like every day people are making up some new sexual term out of nowhere. Seriously, is this stuff created by lonely people on livejournals and tumblr?

I always assumed I was being harsh by judging you as close-minded or a "bully geek", but honestly you might be a little bit. You shouldn't take this as an insult, but constructive criticism. It would help to read some feminist theory and enlighten yourself. I recommend starting with Judith Butler.

[psychturtle]

I would royally destroy anyone who I caught beating on another person for no reason. In the case of hate crimes, I just want to rid the world evil scum like those who are intolerant. I hate intolerance. Last year, a gay couple was assaulted in this town and the media didn't even acknowledge it. Like, this needs to be the focus and people need to be publicly shamed for committing such an act. That's my rant.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

I would royally destroy anyone who I caught beating on another person for no reason. In the case of hate crimes, I just want to rid the world evil scum like those who are intolerant. I hate intolerance. Last year, a gay couple was assaulted in this town and the media didn't even acknowledge it. Like, this needs to be the focus and people need to be publicly shamed for committing such an act. That's my rant.

This. Yes, people may have a different view, maybe sexually or in any other way, but they are still people. Treat them like such. Just because someone is Gay, Bisexual, Trans, or have any other sexual preference, they are still people, and are no less important than other people.

[Mayhem]

Occasionally I do see trans-gender people while out and about. Some of them carry it off very well. Some of them really do look like a bloke in an ill-fitting dress, and it throws you a little bit because you don't expect it. They are, after all, a tiny minority of the population. Thankfully though, I have NEVER personally seen any such person being abused or attacked in the UK for their living choice in that fashion.

Maybe we're just used to it in the UK. After all, this is the country where many of us have grown up watching men in drag on TV (Monty Python, Dick Emery, Dame Edna, Lily Savage, Pauline Calf, and currently Mrs Brown) so it isn't that much of a culture shock to see people like that in real life!

[Netkeeper]

Trans people aren't crossdressers.

[Mayhem]

Oh, I know they're not. Just unfortunately sometimes that's what it looks like. Some people look really comfortable living as the opposite sex, the sex they believe they were meant to be, and some... don't. Genetics, bone structure and body form.

[BubblyShell22]

Yes, people are scum, and it's so horrible to hear of things like this where people are treated horribly for being different. It just irks me so much to hear about things like this.

And, Cubed, they don't make up the terms at all. These are all real terms that are used to identify certain groups of people. I didn't know about a lot of them myself before reading this thread, but now I've become educated on it and I find it interesting, not something people just make up. You really really need to get out more.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

He's that way about a lot of things, it seems. Even though I'm straight, my faith often attracts members of the LGBT community for its openness regarding how people live (And it harm none, do as thou wilt.) so I see a lot of that type of behavior against my Wiccan peers, and it's truly sad. Some of them are persecuted not only for BEING gay or bi, but for their beliefs as well! It's sickening. On some levels, I can relate, as I've occasionally dealt with similar issues due to the religious aspects that seem to be so much a part of that kind of intolerance. Even my daughter's adoptive family have taken flack for their sexuality, and this is one of the few issues that makes me worry for all of them.

[Netkeeper]

Oh, I know they're not. Just unfortunately sometimes that's what it looks like. Some people look really comfortable living as the opposite sex, the sex they believe they were meant to be, and some... don't. Genetics, bone structure and body form.
For some, particularly trans women, the age they start hormone replacement therapy is also a factor. Testosterone does a lot of damage to them, and it only gets harder to correct it as time goes on.

Add to this the fact that transitioning is so insurmountably difficult to start for a multitude of reasons. Finding a doctor that will actually believe they're trans, possibly after years of seeing a therapist and getting a signed letter "proving" they are ready for this, and not "just a passionate crossdresser" or "just making **** up" [because somebody would totally lie about being trans, am I right]. Then getting the money for the treatment, since insurance sure as hell won't cover it -- in their eyes, it's cosmetic, even though it damn sure isn't. Trans people are at an increased risk for suicide because of how emotionally devastating a condition it is.

Additionally, most trans people live in unsupportive households and can't afford to get kicked out just yet so they can't even come out, much less seek treatment, and oh yeah, the majority of employers won't hire a trans person. In fact, in many states, it's not only legal to fire somebody just because of it, but it's also legal to deny them housing.

You know what makes this even better? People that aren't trans get handed hormones. The same hormones that trans people need in order to stay alive, the same hormones that trans people need to be able to pass as cisgendered so that they aren't brutally beaten or murdered. "Okay, well, you might not be sure that you need hormones because it might just be a phase. But this patient whose dick won't work right? This other patient with acne? Bah, hand them some hormones."

[A note that this wasn't targeted at anybody, just another person in here venting. :V]

[pennydreadful]

Assuming that Cubed is actually genuinely in need of education, and not just being... well, Cubed - and for others who might be interested, I've attached the handy Genderbread Person. IMO, it's not 100% perfect, but it's a good intro to the differences between sexual identity and expression vs gender identity and expression.

http://www.nomorestrangers.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/The-Genderbread-Person.jpg

There's also this version:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/51/b2/43/51b24316dc7d46f71b138eb506d4f89c.jpg

And since this thread is supposed to be for anyone who's feeling a bit down in regards to issues related to sexuality and gender identity... I'm going to share that I'm feeling quite gender dysphoric today and as a result, am kind of down. I keep having dreams about being male-bodied and gay, and then I wake up and see curves in the mirror and it puts me off-kilter for the rest of the day.

I feel guilty for getting blue about it as I have it a lot better than what trans people go through, but god I wish that I could just mold and shape my body like clay depending on how I felt. To me, that would be the best thing ever.

It probably seems hard to understand unless you've experienced it yourself. I read a comic once that kind of explains it a little - or at least helps me laugh about it:

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9j3q6sB6M1rb51x1o1_500.png

EDIT: I want to clarify, this post isn't meant as attention-whoring, I just wanted to express how I felt - so I hope nobody feels like I'm trying to get sympathy or anything with this as it's not the case at all. :)

[Mayhem]

For some, particularly trans women, the age they start hormone replacement therapy is also a factor. Testosterone does a lot of damage to them, and it only gets harder to correct it as time goes on.

Add to this the fact that transitioning is so insurmountably difficult to start for a multitude of reasons. Finding a doctor that will actually believe they're trans, possibly after years of seeing a therapist and getting a signed letter "proving" they are ready for this, and not "just a passionate crossdresser" or "just making **** up" [because somebody would totally lie about being trans, am I right]. Then getting the money for the treatment, since insurance sure as hell won't cover it -- in their eyes, it's cosmetic, even though it damn sure isn't. Trans people are at an increased risk for suicide because of how emotionally devastating a condition it is.

Additionally, most trans people live in unsupportive households and can't afford to get kicked out just yet so they can't even come out, much less seek treatment, and oh yeah, the majority of employers won't hire a trans person. In fact, in many states, it's not only legal to fire somebody just because of it, but it's also legal to deny them housing.
Oh, this I'm very much aware of as well. I'll level with you here... I have two trans-gender friends, one lives in the west coast of the US, the other lives in Australia. Both are in their mid 20s and were born male, but want to be female.

The American friend, she started hormone treatment about two years ago, and has managed to have most of the surgery she wants done so far. Her family were a little horrified to begin with, but overall have been reasonably supportive of the entire thing. And quite honestly, if you didn't know she was born a man, right now, you'd have a very hard time telling because she does really carry her transition to femininity extremely well.

Compare and contrast that to the Australian friend. She hasn't been able to get the elective surgery done yet, but I believe has been on the hormone treatment. Unfortunately by comparison, she has a few more obviously manly traits, such as a quite pronounced Adam's apple (yes, I know women have this too contrary to popular belief, but it's way less noticeable most of the time) and large hands. Her jaw is quite man-ish too. Sadly this means she gets verbally abused quite a bit when outside, trying to be the person she wants to be, because this is Australia, and she looks a lot more like a man in a dress than the other friend.

People are subjective on appearance, and depressingly predictive.

[pennydreadful]

People are subjective on appearance, and depressingly predictive.

Definitely this. People get really hung up on "men are supposed to look like X" and "women are supposed to look like Y" and if you don't, you may as well have a third head. There are plenty of trans and GQ/genderfluid people out there who may not be able to "pass" and really want to - but there are just as many who may not have any desire to pass for cisgender or heteronormative/gendernormative, who are comfortable presenting as femme men or butch women or any number of variations.

These are just my thoughts and opinions though - I in no way consider myself to be a spokesperson for all of queerkind! :)

[Netkeeper]

Oh, this I'm very much aware of as well. I'll level with you here... I have two trans-gender friends, one lives in the west coast of the US, the other lives in Australia. Both are in their mid 20s and were born male, but want to be female.

The American friend, she started hormone treatment about two years ago, and has managed to have most of the surgery she wants done so far. Her family were a little horrified to begin with, but overall have been reasonably supportive of the entire thing. And quite honestly, if you didn't know she was born a man, right now, you'd have a very hard time telling because she does really carry her transition to femininity extremely well.

Compare and contrast that to the Australian friend. She hasn't been able to get the elective surgery done yet, but I believe has been on the hormone treatment. Unfortunately by comparison, she has a few more obviously manly traits, such as a quite pronounced Adam's apple (yes, I know women have this too contrary to popular belief, but it's way less noticeable most of the time) and large hands. Her jaw is quite man-ish too. Sadly this means she gets verbally abused quite a bit when outside, trying to be the person she wants to be, because this is Australia, and she looks a lot more like a man in a dress than the other friend.

People are subjective on appearance, and depressingly predictive.
I'm glad your first friend is having a successful and hopefully satisfying transition. Must have cost her an arm and a leg for the surgery.

But the second friend is a perfect example about why these treatments need to be covered by insurances, because they AREN'T cosmetic, they're necessary to keep the person from being attacked. The most I know is that the treatments are deductible, but I don't really know how that works.

EDIT: By the way, trans people don't "want" to be the gender they are transitioning their bodies to. They ARE that gender. Those women ARE women.

[Rooish]

http://www.nomorestrangers.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/The-Genderbread-Person.jpg

There's also this version:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/51/b2/43/51b24316dc7d46f71b138eb506d4f89c.jpg


What's wrong with getting sympathy? Or empathy anyway. Everyone deserves some acknowledgment for what they go through.

I love the Gender Bread diagrams, especially the second one which allows you to be somewhere on two spectrum at once, and not somewhere in a false spectrum that creates a dichotomy out of male/female.

[pennydreadful]

What's wrong with getting sympathy? Or empathy anyway. Everyone deserves some acknowledgment for what they go through.

I love the Gender Bread diagrams, especially the second one which allows you to be somewhere on two spectrum at once, and not somewhere in a false spectrum that creates a dichotomy out of male/female.

Oh yeah, it's more I expect that a lot of people don't understand it so I don't want to come off sounding like I'm looking for attention. And while I do have bad days, I at least have some days where I feel ok in my skin, whereas there are many who don't get even that... I just didn't want to sound like a self-absorbed douchekitten! :lol:

Glad you liked the Gender Bread people! I personally like the second one a bit better as I feel it shows how much things can be fluid and on a sliding scale. I think it's human nature to want things to be black and white, and for a lot of people, their sexuality and gender expression/identity are often more grey.

[Netkeeper]

Ah, yes, a perfect diagram to represent my sexuality.
http://i.imgur.com/gS10IaF.png
The red dot is where I'd consider myself on the scale.

[pennydreadful]

:lol:

You're like a Kinsey 6000. :P

[Slade]

I'm straight. I work with a good bit of gay females now and at the store I used to work at before this job. Both of my bosses at the store where lesbians. I'm still cool with her actually.

I have a question though, I've noticed out of the females I know that are lesbians, they tend to think gay men are gross. Why is that? I have a theory, but want to find out for sure.

I swear I don't mean this to be offensive to anyone. If it does offend, I do apologize.

[Netkeeper]

Most of the lesbians I know love gay guys, but if I ran into one that didn't, I wouldn't question it because I know a LOT of gay guys are misogynists -- saying "all women are gross" as a way of asserting their sexuality, or deciding not to care about women at all because they don't think they have to.

I wouldn't say that's the reason, but it could be.

[BubblyShell22]

Well, I saw on TMZ that R. Kelly isn't going to accept that his daughter is transitioning into a man, and I think that's awful. He should accept his child and any decision that child makes, but I guess he just doesn't want to. Just another reason to hate R. Kelly.

[pennydreadful]

I'm straight. I work with a good bit of gay females now and at the store I used to work at before this job. Both of my bosses at the store where lesbians. I'm still cool with her actually.

I have a question though, I've noticed out of the females I know that are lesbians, they tend to think gay men are gross. Why is that? I have a theory, but want to find out for sure.

I swear I don't mean this to be offensive to anyone. If it does offend, I do apologize.

No, that's not an offensive question at all! I personally adore gay men (as well as sometimes feeling like one and frequently wanting to be one altogether!). In my early 20's when I was heavily into the queer club scene, I did observe that there was occasionally a bit of resentment/frustration that there were so many more spaces and resources for gay men as opposed to lesbian women... As to whether that's still even current, I couldn't say as I haven't been in the club scene in years and years... but I can't say I've ever witnessed any outright "gay men are teh gross!" behaviour.

Like Net, I have seen a bit of misogyny from some gay men (particularly in relation to pro-choice issues), but I figure gay, straight, bi, trans, poly, whatever - some people are just *ssholes; it doesn't really have much to do with orientation. Or, as Net said, it could be a response to the "Ewww, vagina - get away from me, fishlips" attitude that some gay men have. I'm really not sure.

Well, I saw on TMZ that R. Kelly isn't going to accept that his daughter is transitioning into a man, and I think that's awful. He should accept his child and any decision that child makes, but I guess he just doesn't want to. Just another reason to hate R. Kelly.

Yeah, I read that. It's really sad, so many trans people are rejected by their families. I don't know whether anyone here watched the documentary series My Transsexual Summer - it followed 7 transmen and transwomen, all different ages in different transitional stages; personally I thought it was very good and something that everybody should watch. It's up on Youtube if anybody wants to check it out.

I actually found it very educational in terms of breaking down the idea that all trans people want to have 100% of the surgery. Some transpeople do have top and bottom surgery, but there are plenty who don't, or who only have top surgery and are able to feel comfortable in their skins just with that.

Society seems to have this bizarre idea that people's gender is defined by their genitalia - but let's face it, a woman who has a double mastectomy is just as much a woman as someone who still has breasts. If a man was in a car accident and his johnson was severed, he'd still consider himself a man. By the same token, a woman can have a penis, and a man can have a vagina. This two-binary gender system that we have is so restrictive. Sometimes I just want to say "f*ck it" and just use the men's bathroom, y'know? (Especially when there's a lineup in the women's bathrooms! LOL)

[Mayhem]

My other half Lauren has three pretty good male gay friends. She sometimes gets invited out, and they sometimes go to gay bars. She has observed that the places in question are vastly male dominated, with very few even lesbian women present, let alone straight. We were both considering why some time ago. Just an observational coincidence on the places she's been taken? Lesbians don't tend to do the gay bar scene? The large numbers of male gays there put them off? Anyone chime in with their relevant thoughts, as it was a curious observance.

[pennydreadful]

Good question Mayhem! You've got me thinking about it now... I guess if I had to take a stab at it, I'd say it's a combination of a number of different things.

For one thing, I think lesbians tend to be a bit more socially accepted in mixed public spaces than gay men do. There's a lot of hostility aimed at gay men, so for gay men it totally makes sense to me that if you've got the choice between a straight bar or a queer space where you can meet other hot guys and don't have to worry about being punched in the face if you hit on the wrong person... you're gonna go for the gay bar.

Which is not to say that lesbians don't also experience the threat of physical violence, but there's also an equally good chance of just getting stupid comments like "Hey lesbians, hot... can I watch?", depending on the atmosphere and the environment. Lesbian women have the option of a bit more cross-pollination when it comes to bars.

I think the lesbian community has always been much less visible, even before gay bars were legalized - if you go back to pre-Stonewall queer culture and look at the bar scenes that sprang up after Prohibition ended (primarily, the gay club scene from the 30's, 40's, and 50's; women didn't have as much autonomy over their sexuality. Gay bars were illegal, so the ones that were up and running were usually in seedy parts of town, sometimes with underworld investment. For a woman living in that time period, the idea of going to a bad part of town at night, unescorted, to go to an illegal bar would be quite intimidating. Especially if you were married or working class and didn't have the money to go out drinking at night anyway.

Then there's also the internet - I mean, these days, a lot of lesbian women have turned to online dating rather than clubbing, to meet people. So I'd say changing societal norms is also a big part of it.

[Prowler]

This reminds me of a convo I had with a Swedish guy regarding sexuality once. He told me he believed most girls had bi-tendencies and enjoyed the idea of lesbian sex. Naturally, I found his theory quite absurd.

Also, it seems a lot more socially acceptable for 2 straight girls to kiss each other on the lips jokingly but not for 2 straight guys to do it so. As a straight dude I wouldn't want to kiss another guy at all, but that double standard is silly. I find it kinda silly how some straight girls would go that route just to get attention from the guys. I also don't understand this mentality some guys(like the Swedish guy I've mentioned above) have these days "oh I'd love to see my gf making out with another girl, that's hot!". As if that'd be much different from her doing a guy in front of them. Cheating is cheating.

[Hannurdock]

Society seems to have this bizarre idea that people's gender is defined by their genitalia - but let's face it, a woman who has a double mastectomy is just as much a woman as someone who still has breasts. If a man was in a car accident and his johnson was severed, he'd still consider himself a man. By the same token, a woman can have a penis, and a man can have a vagina. This two-binary gender system that we have is so restrictve. Sometimes I just want to say "f*ck it" and just use the men's bathroom, y'know? (Especially when there's a lineup in the women's bathrooms! LOL)

I've done that! If the queue is too long then I'll take my chances.

The world is obsessed and hung-up on genitalia. Personally, that's the last thing I think about when choosing a partner. More important reasons include a sense of humour, connection that sparks and being a decent human being.

[Netkeeper]

I just don't use public restrooms at all. They're nasty, dirty, and usually occupied so someone is in there listening to my piss stream and I can hear theirs. No thanks.

[pennydreadful]

This reminds me of a convo I had with a Swedish guy regarding sexuality once. He told me he believed most girls had bi-tendencies and enjoyed the idea of lesbian sex. Naturally, I found his theory quite absurd.

Also, it seems a lot more socially acceptable for 2 straight girls to kiss each other on the lips jokingly but not for 2 straight guys to do it so. As a straight dude I wouldn't want to kiss another guy at all, but that double standard is silly. I find it kinda silly how some straight girls would go that route just to get attention from the guys. I also don't understand this mentality some guys(like the Swedish guy I've mentioned above) have these days "oh I'd love to see my gf making out with another girl, that's hot!". As if that'd be much different from her doing a guy in front of them. Cheating is cheating.

Actually, they've done studies in the last few years showing that women are more likely to act on same-sex attraction than men, thus giving women the appearance that they're more sexually fluid. Not to mention the fact that it's encouraged in women (as long as it's boner-giving for straight dudes; ie two high femme girls together, not two butches or androgynes).

Citations for those interested:
http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/09/understanding-females-sexual-fluidity/
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/angelina-chapin/sexual-fluidity_b_4538607.html

As far as the cheating thing - some people can't handle seeing their partner with someone else, other people have zero problem with it and others actively enjoy it. Some people are wired for monogamy, others aren't.

If someone has an respectful, open relationship where both partners have other playmates - I don't consider it cheating. If a couple gets together with a third (or fourth or whatever) - I don't consider it cheating. If someone goes off and gets together with someone other than their partner without discussing it first - then it's cheating. It's a question of communication and honesty.

Monogamy is certainly heavily encouraged in society and for that reason it's considered the norm - I've definitely been judged for being non-monogamous, but my view is that as long as all people involved are honest, respectful and nobody is given any false ideas as to what the status quo is, I don't see the problem.

Ditto for poly relationships - there's a right way and a wrong way. A loving poly relationship between people who all want the same things out of the relationship and treat each other honestly, fairly and respectfully is awesome. A Warren Jeffs style setup... is poly done the wrong way. Sooo the wrong way.

My view is that as long as everyone involved is happy, I say go for it. That goes for whether you're monog or non-monog; no one choice is inherently better or worse than the other, it's a matter of what works for you and for the person you're with.

[Netkeeper]

Found this on Tumblr just now, thought I'd post it, as it's a good look into the way trans peoples' brains work and overall its a pleasant listen

k73SnuygZNI

[pennydreadful]

Awesome video Net, thanks for posting it! And the person narrating it has THE cutest voice. :P

[Davetello]

No, that's not an offensive question at all! I personally adore gay men (as well as sometimes feeling like one and frequently wanting to be one altogether!). In my early 20's when I was heavily into the queer club scene, I did observe that there was occasionally a bit of resentment/frustration that there were so many more spaces and resources for gay men as opposed to lesbian women... As to whether that's still even current, I couldn't say as I haven't been in the club scene in years and years... but I can't say I've ever witnessed any outright "gay men are teh gross!" behaviour.

Like Net, I have seen a bit of misogyny from some gay men (particularly in relation to pro-choice issues), but I figure gay, straight, bi, trans, poly, whatever - some people are just *ssholes; it doesn't really have much to do with orientation. Or, as Net said, it could be a response to the "Ewww, vagina - get away from me, fishlips" attitude that some gay men have. I'm really not sure.



Yeah, I read that. It's really sad, so many trans people are rejected by their families. I don't know whether anyone here watched the documentary series My Transsexual Summer - it followed 7 transmen and transwomen, all different ages in different transitional stages; personally I thought it was very good and something that everybody should watch. It's up on Youtube if anybody wants to check it out.

I actually found it very educational in terms of breaking down the idea that all trans people want to have 100% of the surgery. Some transpeople do have top and bottom surgery, but there are plenty who don't, or who only have top surgery and are able to feel comfortable in their skins just with that.

Society seems to have this bizarre idea that people's gender is defined by their genitalia - but let's face it, a woman who has a double mastectomy is just as much a woman as someone who still has breasts. If a man was in a car accident and his johnson was severed, he'd still consider himself a man. By the same token, a woman can have a penis, and a man can have a vagina. This two-binary gender system that we have is so restrictive. Sometimes I just want to say "f*ck it" and just use the men's bathroom, y'know? (Especially when there's a lineup in the women's bathrooms! LOL)

Haven't read the entire thread, but I looked at your post randomly and I think you make many excellent points.

I've studied sociology and many of the things you say are echoed by theorists there - the claim that a person's gender is not defined by their physical characteristics i.e. their genitals. Social constructionists argue that maleness and femaleness are inscribed rather than natural - they are a set of rules and ideas about the world which come to be part of someone, rather than naturally occurring. I have to say that I think this theory is almost spot on. As you say, maleness and femaleness are not really about physical traits.

The above idea can be extended to race. Black people have been studied in the past and many claims have been made that they have different physical characteristics to whites e.g. larger noses, thicker skulls arguably, thicker hair etc. However, while colour is much more 'in your face' and physically apparent than genitalia, I would also argue that blackness and whiteness are very much socially/culturally created. The expression of art in the early 20th century Harlem as well as other ways of black expression (reaction to apartheid, Martin Luther King etc) are much more important to black identity than the colour of one's skin, in my opinion. Although I suppose the ultimate irony is that without a darker skin colour the need to fight racism or to express black culture would not have emerged anyway - so essentially it becomes a chicken or egg scenario which is why there are so many interesting debates between social constructionism and viewpoints of a more 'natural' slant.

For context, I am a white, Northern European, heterosexual male. So I don't particularly have a vested interest in this or anything to gain from these comments i.e. I'm not gay, transgender or black, so there's no agenda with my comments. Not that there is any with yours either, but just in case someone accuses me of one (you know what the internet can be like).

Btw, 'johnson' is a belter of a world for a guy's manhood. I will have to remember it :)

[pennydreadful]

Hey, thanks Dave. :) And yeah, 'johnson' is one hell of a word. :lol:

When it comes to gender studies, there's still a hell of a lot that I don't know - and not just me, but in general there's a lot that still isn't fully understood about it.

Speaking of gender... gender-fluid uber-hottie Andrej Pejic is being cast as one of Ariel's sisters in the live-action Little Mermaid, which I think is just brilliant. god she's gorgeous.

[Netkeeper]

Oh, wow, that is an AMAZING casting choice. I love Andrej Pejic.

[pennydreadful]

Oh, wow, that is an AMAZING casting choice. I love Andrej Pejic.

You and the rest of the planet!!! Andrej is like, the only good thing to come out of Australia ever. :lol: Her beauty is a national treasure.

Seriously though, it totally fits my idea of what merpeople should be - androgynous, mysterious, beautiful, not based on absurd beauty standards.

[Davetello]

No, that's not an offensive question at all! I personally adore gay men (as well as sometimes feeling like one and frequently wanting to be one altogether!). In my early 20's when I was heavily into the queer club scene, I did observe that there was occasionally a bit of resentment/frustration that there were so many more spaces and resources for gay men as opposed to lesbian women... As to whether that's still even current, I couldn't say as I haven't been in the club scene in years and years... but I can't say I've ever witnessed any outright "gay men are teh gross!" behaviour.

Like Net, I have seen a bit of misogyny from some gay men (particularly in relation to pro-choice issues), but I figure gay, straight, bi, trans, poly, whatever - some people are just *ssholes; it doesn't really have much to do with orientation. Or, as Net said, it could be a response to the "Ewww, vagina - get away from me, fishlips" attitude that some gay men have. I'm really not sure.



Yeah, I read that. It's really sad, so many trans people are rejected by their families. I don't know whether anyone here watched the documentary series My Transsexual Summer - it followed 7 transmen and transwomen, all different ages in different transitional stages; personally I thought it was very good and something that everybody should watch. It's up on Youtube if anybody wants to check it out.

I actually found it very educational in terms of breaking down the idea that all trans people want to have 100% of the surgery. Some transpeople do have top and bottom surgery, but there are plenty who don't, or who only have top surgery and are able to feel comfortable in their skins just with that.

Society seems to have this bizarre idea that people's gender is defined by their genitalia - but let's face it, a woman who has a double mastectomy is just as much a woman as someone who still has breasts. If a man was in a car accident and his johnson was severed, he'd still consider himself a man. By the same token, a woman can have a penis, and a man can have a vagina. This two-binary gender system that we have is so restrictive. Sometimes I just want to say "f*ck it" and just use the men's bathroom, y'know? (Especially when there's a lineup in the women's bathrooms! LOL)

Hey, thanks Dave. :) And yeah, 'johnson' is one hell of a word. :lol:

When it comes to gender studies, there's still a hell of a lot that I don't know - and not just me, but in general there's a lot that still isn't fully understood about it.

Speaking of gender... gender-fluid uber-hottie Andrej Pejic is being cast as one of Ariel's sisters in the live-action Little Mermaid, which I think is just brilliant. god she's gorgeous.

Yes, that is very true,

She looks cute.

[pennydreadful]

New video made as part of the Transgender Anti-Violence Project; called In My Shoes. Just thought I'd share it here for any peeps who might want to watch.

MDuVbsg0eMo

[BubblyShell22]

Wow. That was a very good video, Penny. Thanks for sharing.

[pennydreadful]

Great video by a group called The Bi Brigade, who are a bi support group in Portland, Ore. They plan on doing an ongoing series featuring thoughts, advice and perspectives from bi people for bi people.

Given that bi invisibility and biphobia are a very huge and very real problem, I thought I'd share it here for our bi peeps and allies. :)

PNJEhLAJJjU

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Gender and race are not "cultural constructs", as some people seem to think. They are as real as the sun and the moon.

But don't take my word for it. Even reading the most basic health information about illness, medicine, and health care will tell you otherwise. For example, heart attack symptoms are different in women than in men-and even many doctors are not aware of this.

[BubblyShell22]

That's an awesome video, Penny. Thanks for sharing.

[pennydreadful]

Gender and race are not "cultural constructs", as some people seem to think. They are as real as the sun and the moon.

But don't take my word for it. Even reading the most basic health information about illness, medicine, and health care will tell you otherwise. For example, heart attack symptoms are different in women than in men-and even many doctors are not aware of this.

Biological sex and gender aren't the same thing though. Heteronormative gender roles are a social construct, but a person's gender identity can have infinite variations.

Behold: a handy chart appears... (spoilered for size)

http://americantransman.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/sexgendercontinuum.jpg

A handy breakdown of said chart, copy-pasta'd directly from the Centre of Gender Sanity also appears...


"Biological sex, shown on the top scale, includes external genitalia, internal reproductive structures, chromosomes, hormone levels, and secondary sex characteristics such as breasts, facial and body hair, and fat distribution. These characteristics are objective in that they can be seen and measured (with appropriate technology). The scale consists not just of two categories (male and female) but is actually a continuum, with most people existing somewhere near one end or the other. The space more in the middle is occupied by intersex people (formerly, hermaphrodites), who have combinations of characteristics typical of males and those typical of females, such as both a testis and an ovary, or XY chromosomes (the usual male pattern) and a vagina, or they may have features that are not completely male or completely female, such as an organ that could be thought of as a small penis or a large clitoris, or an XXY chromosomal pattern.

Gender identity is how people think of themselves and identify in terms of sex (man, woman, boy, girl). Gender identity is a psychological quality; unlike biological sex, it can't be observed or measured (at least by current means), only reported by the individual. Like biological sex, it consists of more than two categories, and there's space in the middle for those who identify as a third gender, both (two-spirit), or neither. We lack language for this intermediate position because everyone in our culture is supposed to identify unequivocally with one of the two extreme categories. In fact, many people feel that they have masculine and feminine aspects of their psyches, and some people, fearing that they do, seek to purge themselves of one or the other by acting in exaggerated sex-stereotyped ways.

Gender expression is everything we do that communicates our sex/gender to others: clothing, hair styles, mannerisms, way of speaking, roles we take in interactions, etc. This communication may be purposeful or accidental. It could also be called social gender because it relates to interactions between people. Trappings of one gender or the other may be forced on us as children or by dress codes at school or work. Gender expression is a continuum, with feminine at one end and masculine at the other. In between are gender expressions that are androgynous (neither masculine nor feminine) and those that combine elements of the two (sometimes called gender bending). Gender expression can vary for an individual from day to day or in different situations, but most people can identify a range on the scale where they feel the most comfortable. Some people are comfortable with a wider range of gender expression than others.

Sexual orientation indicates who we are erotically attracted to. The ends of this scale are labeled "attracted to women" and "attracted to men," rather than "homosexual" and "heterosexual," to avoid confusion as we discuss the concepts of sex and gender. In the mid-range is bisexuality; there are also people who are asexual (attracted to neither men nor women). We tend to think of most people as falling into one of the two extreme categories (attracted to women or attracted to men), whether they are straight or gay, with only a small minority clustering around the bisexual middle. However, Kinsey's studies showed that most people are in fact not at one extreme of this continuum or the other, but occupy some position between.

For each scale, the popular notion that there are two distinct categories, with everyone falling neatly into one or the other, is a social construction. The real world (Nature, if you will) does not observe these boundaries. If we look at what actually exists, we see that there is middle ground. To be sure, most people fall near one end of the scale or the other, but very few people are actually at the extreme ends, and there are people at every point along the continuum.

Gender identity and sexual orientation are resistant to change. Although we don't yet have definitive answers to whether these are the result of biological influences, psychological ones, or both, we do know that they are established very early in life, possibly prenatally, and there are no methods that have been proven effective for changing either of these. Some factors that make up biological sex can be changed, with more or less difficulty. These changes are not limited to people who change their sex: many women undergo breast enlargement, which moves them toward the extreme female end of the scale, and men have penile enlargements to enhance their maleness, for example. Gender expression is quite flexible for some people and more rigid for others. Most people feel strongly about expressing themselves in a way that's consistent with their inner gender identity and experience discomfort when they're not allowed to do so.

The four scales are independent. Our cultural expectation is that men occupy the extreme left ends of all four scales (male, man, masculine, attracted to women) and women occupy the right ends. But a person with male anatomy could be attracted to men (gay man), or could have a gender identity of "woman" (transsexual), or could have a feminine gender expression on occasion (crossdresser). A person with female anatomy could identify as a woman, have a somewhat masculine gender expression, and be attracted to women (butch lesbian). It's a mix-and-match world, and there are as many combinations as there are people who think about their gender.

This schema is not necessarily "reality," but it's probably closer than the two-box system. Reality is undoubtedly more complex. Each of the four scales could be broken out into several scales. For instance, the sex scale could be expanded into separate scales for external genitalia, internal reproductive organs, hormone levels, chromosome patterns, and so forth. An individual would probably not fall on the same place on each of these. "Biological sex" is a summary of scores for several variables.

There are conditions that exist that don't fit anywhere on a continuum: some people have neither the XX (typical female) chromosomal pattern nor the XY pattern typical of males, but it is not clear that other patterns, such as just X, belong anywhere on the scale between XX and XY. Furthermore, the scales may not be entirely separate: if gender identity and sexual orientation are found to have a biological component, they may overlap with the biological sex scale.

Using the model presented here is something like using a spectrum of colors to view the world, instead of only black and white. It doesn't fully account for all the complex shadings that exist, but it gives us a richer, more interesting picture. Why look at the world in black and white (marred by a few troublesome shades of gray) when there's a whole rainbow out there?"

- source: http://www.gendersanity.com/diagram.html

[Davetello]

Yep, biological sex is natural imo whereas gender is a social construct - it's something which is assigned. However, different theories present different views so there's no right or wrong answer.

[Netkeeper]

Gender and race are not "cultural constructs", as some people seem to think. They are as real as the sun and the moon.

But don't take my word for it. Even reading the most basic health information about illness, medicine, and health care will tell you otherwise. For example, heart attack symptoms are different in women than in men-and even many doctors are not aware of this.
Are any of these sources written by trans people? Serious question.

[pennydreadful]

Are any of these sources written by trans people? Serious question.

Yeah - this is why I'm more comfortable saying gender roles are a social construct rather than gender itself being a social construct. I understand that most people who say gender is a social construct actually mean gender roles are a social construct, it's just the wording makes a bit of a difference in my interpretation. If gender were entirely a social construct - if gender was simply an issue of how a person is socialized - trans people wouldn't exist. It's an extremely complex issue with a lot of facets.

All you have to do is look at people who were born intersex and raised as one gender, and later in life many of them feel that they were raised as the wrong gender. I don't believe that people raised in a gender-neutral society, that everybody would be at a happy medium. If we abolished "male" and "female" genders in society, there would still be transpeople. So I think it's important not to exclude trans experiences when considering the social structure of gender.

Gender identity is an intrinsic, personal trait which cannot be changed. Gender roles are how society expects people to behave based on their biological sex.

[Netkeeper]

Gender roles are how society expects people to behave based on their biological sex/gender presentation/gender identity. Transitioning trans people are still often pressured to behave or appear a certain way due to gender roles [among other reasons; trans people will often pressure other trans people to behave or dress [x] way because it helps them appear cis, which is important].

[pennydreadful]

Exactly - if you're a non-gender-conforming trans person, from what I've seen you get a lot of crap about not "passing" - like someone being visibly trans is some big, shameful thing that has to be hidden and erased.

I mean, some trans folk want to pass - for others, it's not a priority to appear cishet. A transwoman doesn't necessarily have to wear dresses and makeup just because she identifies as a woman.

[Netkeeper]

Yeah. The only reason I feel it's pushed at all is because if the people surrounding a trans person knows they're trans, it could become physically dangerous, since violence is committed against them so often. At least, I hope that's the only reason why it's pushed at all.

[pennydreadful]

Hey, so in other news, Andreja has come out as trans!

https://www.yahoo.com/health/model-andreja-pejic-comes-out-as-transgender-92841649992.html

Also, excerpt from an article on GLBT representation in recent films has shown to be woefully lacking; this excerpt says:

"The GLAAD survey of releases from the majors found that only 17 of the 102 films released by the seven studios included characters identified as gay, lesbian or bisexual; most of these were cameos or minor characters; and many of the characterisations were “outright defamatory”.'

Full article here: http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/movies/glaad-to-be-gay-hollywood-studios-fail-the-lgbt-test-20140723-zw53t.html#ixzz38e1EZQIV

[pennydreadful]

So, just a couple of things that I thought I'd share with anyone who might be interested:

- at 9.00pm on August 8th, Showtime is airing a documentary called Hate The Sin, which is about coming out and being queer in the deep South. It's produced by Ilene Chaiken (she of The L Word fame) - it looks like it will be a fairly interesting watch.

- I also finally got around to watching a great anime called Michiko and Hatchin. The main character is a bisexual black woman, the art is great and it's generally a really good anime. The first two seasons are out, for anybody who's interested.

- Last but not least, I found out this week that there is an anime out there by the name of Hourou Musuko, which follows a trans boy and trans girl growing up in Japan. It has been described as dealing with:

dysphoria
trans* objectification
the intersection of gender identity and sexuality
passing
puberty
what adult life will be like as a trans* person
experimenting with (“trying on”) gender signifiers
evolving identities
binary questioning
being a partner to a trans* person

I plan on watching it this weekend (time permitting); there's also a manga for anybody who would like to check it out.

Those last two could potentially have been posted in the anime discussion thread, but I felt more comfortable posting it here.

In the meantime, I feel that I haven't contributed much in the way of pan or ace support, media or info - if anybody has anything along those lines they feel would be useful, educational or just generally fun, feel free to post it here cuz I'd love to see it. :)

[musashi-kamiizumi]

I challenge the idea that just because something is a cultural construct that it isn't real. Sure, it's real. It's still a cultural construct, but that doesn't mean that those constructs don't have real consequences in our lives and realities. We construct meaning in our worlds; we build reality through our concepts. Yes, physical bodies of varying configurations exists, from all ranges of color and genital configuration, but the meaning we ascribe to those bodies are cultural concepts. And they are real.

[musashi-kamiizumi]

PS: This is a good fic series. This one features a bisexual/pansexual Mikey. Rated M for mention of murder and sexual content
http://adoradork.tumblr.com/post/90193288883/conversations-chapter-1-michelangelo

I can personally see all of the turtles as pansexual, though I think Leo could be asexual. What would the lack of socialization as well as having similar but different bodies to human mean for their sexualities? Am I the only one who thinks about this seriously, rather than just a "I like Raph and Casey together, so I ship them!" sense?

[Netkeeper]

Nah, I do that too, but only in the way that I personally write the characters as opposed to saying "this is completely canon" because... I know my opinions on the turtles' sexualities aren't canon, lmao, and I will never try to pass them off as such.
Leo's ace, Raph's straight, Mikey's bi, and Donnie's gay.
I feel discussion of a fictional character's sexuality is never fact unless the creator confirms it in some way shape or form. If not, it is open to any and all discussion, speculation, and scepticism, no matter how much someone may dislike it. Especially when said characters are teenagers.

[musashi-kamiizumi]

I mean, they are only teenagers in some instances. We see them all the way up into the 100s, I'm pretty sure. They do age. I like to think about their sexualities realistically; if it doesn't make sense to me, I can't get behind it.

If we want to get technical, we know Leo isn't ace because he's been portrayed in 2 romantic (and sexual) relationships, both with ciswomen. We also know Donnie isn't gay, because he has fling-y feelings for April across several turtleverses, though it is the most pronounced in the 2012 series.

If anyone was going to be straight, I think it would be Mikey. Raph's two strongest relationships (Leo and Casey) are with men, and most of his intimacy seems to be with men. Mikey ... I don't know. I honestly don't think about him too much, but he is shown to be slightly girl-crazy in a couple of instances.

I really see Donatello as pansexual. I think he'd take a very logical approach to relationships and would figure if they weren't even the same species, what does it matter? Plus, the physical sex characteristics of turtles are pretty different from humans in general, so I think he'd be fascinated by bodies of all genders.

[pennydreadful]

A good article I thought was worth sharing on the cognitive differences between gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia:
http://roygbiv.jezebel.com/stop-confusing-gender-dysphoria-with-body-dysmorphia-al-1583049920

Also, link via Bleeding Cool about a gender-swapping comic book by author Jennie Wood:
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/08/14/flutter-is-a-must-read-gender-swapping-story-talking-with-jennie-wood-at-boston-comic-con/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BleedingCool+%28Bleeding+Cool +Comic+News+%26+Rumors%29

Sorry this is a short and boring post; feeling too cruddy today to post anything intelligent.

[musashi-kamiizumi]

It's more complex than you would make it seem. Take, for instance, a cisgender man who is married to a cisgender woman and identifies as straight, but has affairs with men. Would you say he is "really" gay? "Really" bisexual? What gives you the right to decide what a person "really" is when he has made the decision to identify as straight?

We *all* makes choices about who we are with, who we choose to engage with and how. Again, does that mean that we don't have inclinations towards "I find this body attractive"? Of course not. But we make choices about our sexuality. We are more than base urges.

A good example, and one relevant to the gay community, is the widespread "no fats, no femmes, no blacks, no asians" stereotype that seems to come from cisgender white gay men. If you ask them why they choose not to date so many types of men, they will likely answer that the don't choose it. They just don't feel attracted to them. Which, may very well be the truth. But, attraction is a complex social relationship that has to do with more than biological urges. Human sexuality is so much more complex than that. Culture influences sexuality, tells us what is acceptable to express and what is not, what urges to act upon, and which ones to stifle. Culture tells us who we should find attractive. Our world plays a huge part in who we are, whether you think it does or not.

[musashi-kamiizumi]

An interesting read:

http://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/18/no-one-is-born-gay-or-straight-here-are-5-reasons-why/

The post script:
Ultimately, the terms set forward in the public debate about this subject–biology versus “choice”–are quite limited, mainly because “choice” is not the most useful term for describing all of the possibilities that sit apart from biology. Several social, cultural, and structural factors can shape our embodied desires and erotic possibilities. The fact that these factors are not physiological in origin does not mean that they aren’t coercive or subjectifying, resulting in a real or perceived condition of fixity or “no choice.” We know that social factors also become embodied over time. And yet, I remain somewhat committed to the concept of “choice”–or something like it–to describe the possibility of a critical and reflexive relationship to our sexual desires. Personally, the idea that I don’t have control over who or what I desire is a big turn-off to me, so I am constantly pushing back on what feel like the limits of my own desires. For instance, I went through a period of pushing myself to date femmes because I had some good reasons for being suspicious about why I had ruled them out from my dating pool. When it felt like I could never be nonmonogamous, I made it a goal to at least try. Then when I realized I only really felt attracted to alcoholic rebels, I nipped that in the bud too. Just when I thought I’d never think hairy men were hot, I allowed myself to face my attraction to Javier Bardem. When my tastes and proclivities start to feel like they are solidifying, I get suspicious and disappointed. So, in the interests of full disclosure, I am writing from the perspective of someone who finds sexual fixity pretty uninteresting, and who believes that there are really good feminist and queer reasons to take regular, critical inventory of the parts of our sexuality that we believe we cannot or will not change.

http://socialinqueery.com/2013/10/31/some-clarifications-on-no-one-is-born-gay/

[Candy Kappa]

So, the article writer found out they had a more broader taste in partners then they first thought, and want to push that onto other people?

[musashi-kamiizumi]

The very idea that a person has no choice in their attractions is ridiculous. We don't pop out of the womb as fully formed cognizant beings. Our environment influences us. Our biology influences us. Our personal choices and experiences are not to be discounted.

edit: If anyone wants to have an intellectual conversation about this, I'm game. If it's just "nu uh, you're wrong, because that's my opinion" then I am not going to entertain it.

[ssjup81]

I don't see how one's sexuality is a choice. One can't help who he/she is physically attracted to. I really do feel one is just born that way. For example, gay people. Who would choose to be gay, especially in a world where in some places people are killed and condemned for it? It doesn't make sense to me personally unless your body and mind was wired to be that way.

Or what about those who don't have a sexual or physical attraction towards anyone?

I dunno, I just can't see this as a "choice".

[musashi-kamiizumi]

Who would choose to have a religion, in a world where people are condemned and killed for it? (do you see how your logic is faulty?)

And yes, one can. Like people who say they would never date someone of another race. Do you honestly think that we are born with racial sexualities, or do you think the fact that we live in a racist world influences who is deemed attractive and thus who people find attractive? Same with body size. There is no natural biological inclination towards skinny people; there is a social inclination that tells us that is who we should find attractive.

I know this flies in the face of the rugged individualism of the USA dominant paradigm, at least, but there is very little that is innately biological or innately socially constructed. People don't want to believe that society influences what they should think and feel, but it does.

[Slade]

Net I have to ask you, how is not being attracted to other races racist?

[Netkeeper]

It implies that there is something about all people of [x] race that you don't like, or that all people of [x] race look the same, which is really really untrue, you know? If you asked somebody why they didn't date someone of [x] race or only dated people of their own race, it's likely to be a really racist reason -- "I don't date black women because they're bitchy", for example, is one I've heard, and it makes me so upset to hear things like that because those are stereotypes and they're untrue.

It works in inverse, too, people [usually white] saying they only date black guys or Asian people or any other race different from their own because "they're exotic and attractive" and that's REALLY skeevy.

[plastroncafe]

In addition to the above is the sizable amount of cultural background radiation which glorifies the traits of one ethnicity over that of another.

No one is suggesting that everyone be attracted to everyone else all the time, but to realize there might be some underlying notions of racial superiority lurking behind one's sexual attraction.

[musashi-kamiizumi]

Ta~da. Thus, our sexualities and attractions are not 100% in born and biological.

[plastroncafe]

Musashi, when did you choose which hand to write with?

[Electric]

It implies that there is something about all people of [x] race that you don't like, or that all people of [x] race look the same, which is really really untrue, you know? If you asked somebody why they didn't date someone of [x] race or only dated people of their own race, it's likely to be a really racist reason -- "I don't date black women because they're bitchy", for example, is one I've heard, and it makes me so upset to hear things like that because those are stereotypes and they're untrue.

It works in inverse, too, people [usually white] saying they only date black guys or Asian people or any other race different from their own because "they're exotic and attractive" and that's REALLY skeevy.

Gonna disagree with you here, but please just understand these are my opinions.

I'm a straight white male, but I think this still applies. There are certain races that I just don't feel attracted to. I'm not racist, and don't have a problem with any race, it's just I do not feel attracted to some of them, it's just my preference. In the same way, I am extremely attracted to other races, ones that are not white.

So to say that claiming you aren't attracted to a race implies racism I think is completely wrong. It's just personal preference.

Just like you claiming you didn't choose to be attracted to men, Im claiming didn't choose to not be attracted to certain races, it's just how it is. (To be clear I am not at all in any way trying to mock or even disagree with your opinions on the "choosing" issue, I'm going To stay out of that debate, just putting it as an example)

[Cure]

Musashi, when did you choose which hand to write with?

That's a choice. My mom is naturally left handed, but when the nuns in her Colombian Catholic school saw her writing with it, they would hit her knuckles with rulers until she wrote with her right. Thus, she writes with her right and does everything else with her left.

Sure, the choice was taken out of her hands, but still.

[plastroncafe]

I would hardly consider coercion to be a choice.
If it were, she'd merely choose to be right handed in all things.

I view sexual orientation to manifest in much the same way.
We can choose our behavior, but that ingrained orientation remains ingrained.

In the end, it shouldn't matter why someone self identifies as anything.
I certainly didn't choose to be bisexual. I didn't just one day think, Self! I'm gonna like ladies as well as gentlemen.
So...suggesting that sexual orientation is a choice is dismissive of my life experience. At the very least it's really freakin' rude to assume you know more about me and my experiences than I do.

[musashi-kamiizumi]

I think you are confusing non-biological and conscious choice. Some people do make conscious choices about their sexualities, but that just because sexuality isn't necessarily innate (there is no scientific proof that it is) does not mean that it is the result of a direct, conscious choice. How many people have that much self awareness to make such a choice anyway? But there is no evidence to support that people are "born that way" whatever that way may be.

[plastroncafe]

There is evidence, I just gave you some.
I am bisexual, and have always been bisexual.
Do not dismiss my life experience.

[musashi-kamiizumi]

Gonna disagree with you here, but please just understand these are my opinions.

I'm a straight white male, but I think this still applies. There are certain races that I just don't feel attracted to. I'm not racist, and don't have a problem with any race, it's just I do not feel attracted to some of them, it's just my preference. In the same way, I am extremely attracted to other races, ones that are not white.

So to say that claiming you aren't attracted to a race implies racism I think is completely wrong. It's just personal preference.

Just like you claiming you didn't choose to be attracted to men, Im claiming didn't choose to not be attracted to certain races, it's just how it is. (To be clear I am not at all in any way trying to mock or even disagree with your opinions on the "choosing" issue, I'm going To stay out of that debate, just putting it as an example)

Just gonna leave this here:
Searches related to i'm not attracted to black girls

why are black people so mean

why are black people so loud

i hate black people

why am i afraid of black people

i'm scared of black people

why do white people really hate black people

i don't like black people yahoo answers

why are black girls attracted to me

[Cure]

I would hardly consider coercion to be a choice.
If it were, she'd merely choose to be right handed in all things.

I view sexual orientation to manifest in much the same way.
We can choose our behavior, but that ingrained orientation remains ingrained.

In the end, it shouldn't matter why someone self identifies as anything.
I certainly didn't choose to be bisexual. I didn't just one day think, Self! I'm gonna like ladies as well as gentlemen.
So...suggesting that sexual orientation is a choice is dismissive of my life experience. At the very least it's really freakin' rude to assume you know more about me and my experiences than I do.

Yeah, I get you, I just don't think handedness and sexuality are comparable. I don't think coercion would work on sexuality.

But then I'd be saying all those people who have been "cured" are full of it, so I dunno. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.

[plastroncafe]

Yeah, I get you, I just don't think handedness and sexuality are comparable. I don't think coercion would work on sexuality.

But then I'd be saying all those people who have been "cured" are full of it, so I dunno. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.

I think it would, and does. Much to everyone's detriment.
My grandmother is no less left-handed because she was beaten daily by nuns to become so.

[Cure]

Alright, the metaphors are flying over my head, haha.

Sexuality is not a choice was your point, and I agree.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Yeah, I get you, I just don't think handedness and sexuality are comparable. I don't think coercion would work on sexuality.

But then I'd be saying all those people who have been "cured" are full of it, so I dunno. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.

Remember Anne Heche? She publicly said that she was no longer homosexual, and got death threats for saying so. Either sexual orientation is malleable, or Heche had been living a lie beforehand. I suspect the former.

[Slade]

[QUOTE=ElectricN;1333435]Gonna disagree with you here, but please just understand these are my opinions.

I'm a straight white male, but I think this still applies. There are certain races that I just don't feel attracted to. I'm not racist, and don't have a problem with any race, it's just I do not feel attracted to some of them, it's just my preference. In the same way, I am extremely attracted to other races, ones that are not white.

So to say that claiming you aren't attracted to a race implies racism I think is completely wrong. It's just personal preference.

QUOTE]

This is what I'm going with too. There are attractive females of other races, but I stuck with white. I'm not saying these other races are below me, or being hateful or anything of that nature.

I hate everyone equally anyway..:lol:

[Netkeeper]

Ta~da. Thus, our sexualities and attractions are not 100% in born and biological.
You are still saying racial preference and sexuality are the same thing. One is racist and the other is a natural inclination. They are not the same thing. They are not on the same level. Stop acting like they are. You cannot choose your sexuality. I did not choose to be attracted to men. Many men scare me. I would not choose to be attracted to the same gender that often frightens me. Remove your head from your ass.

Just gonna leave this here:
Searches related to i'm not attracted to black girls

why are black people so mean

why are black people so loud

i hate black people

why am i afraid of black people

i'm scared of black people

why do white people really hate black people

i don't like black people yahoo answers

why are black girls attracted to me
This, however, is an excellent post.

[Electric]

Just gonna leave this here:
Searches related to i'm not attracted to black girls

why are black people so mean

why are black people so loud

i hate black people

why am i afraid of black people

i'm scared of black people

why do white people really hate black people

i don't like black people yahoo answers

why are black girls attracted to me

You are still saying racial preference and sexuality are the same thing. One is racist and the other is a natural inclination. They are not the same thing. They are not on the same level. Stop acting like they are. You cannot choose your sexuality. I did not choose to be attracted to men. Many men scare me. I would not choose to be attracted to the same gender that often frightens me. Remove your head from your ass.


This, however, is an excellent post.


Net, you go off when someone said being gay was a choice, but now you're supporting and opinion that I am not attracted to certain races by choice.

You are ridiculous.

I am in no way racist, whatsoever. I'm friendly to all races, don't care what you look like. But some just aren't aren't my interest sexually. and that is just as genetic as you being gay. I didn't choose this, I didn't wake up one day and think "you know, I'm just not going to be interested in this race"

What was that long ranting post that you had where you complained that someone was basically saying they thought they knew you better than you did? I should quote that.

[Netkeeper]

Um, no. Having a "preference" for a race isn't the same as sexual orientation. They are not the same thing. How many times have I said that in this thread?

It should be really obvious. Here, let me ask you: why are you not attracted to the races you aren't attracted to? Is it "the way they act", which would be stereotypical or a broad generalization, and therefore racist?

[Electric]

Um, no. Having a "preference" for a race isn't the same as sexual orientation. They are not the same thing. How many times have I said that in this thread?

It should be really obvious. Here, let me ask you: why are you not attracted to the races you aren't attracted to? Is it "the way they act", which would be stereotypical or a broad generalization, and therefore racist?

And how many times have I said it is the same thing? Glad we covered that. It's the same in that we don't choose. You don't choose what you're attracted to? Neither do I? What gives you the excuse to use the "it's who I am" but I can't?

And let me answer: nope, I don't generalize, just don't find certain races as attractive. Features etc. Not saying that can't be attractive,'just not attractive to me.

You are hilariously wrong right now. It's a preference. Here, I also prefer blondes. Go off about how I find blondes more attractive than other hair colors and realize how ridiculous it is that you are accusing me of being racist, when' it's the same thing.

You get accused that your sexual preference is a choice, and you rampage. Then you turn around and make accusations along the same lines. You. Are. Ridiculous.

You do not make me feel safe in this thread. I post one thing of my preference and you accuse me of being racist. This is not a safe place because of YOU.

[Netkeeper]

That's because it IS different. Having a "racial preference" is racist. This isn't difficult to understand. Do you refuse to date people of the race you don't like? Why don't you like that race? What makes the others better? This is racist.

Hair colour isn't a discrimination thing. I like green eyes. But I won't refuse somebody that doesn't have green eyes, because that's ridiculous. You probably wouldn't say no to a person with brown hair.

EDIT: Here, in some clearer words for you:

If you write off an ENTIRE race, an ENTIRE RACE of VARIED PEOPLE with any possible combination of features -- as if theyre just a monolith of people that look exactly the same -- as unattractive to you, its racist that youre monolithing an entire race and try and think about WHY it is that you think these features you think every single person in this race has are unattractive.

[Electric]

That's because it IS different. Having a "racial preference" is racist. This isn't difficult to understand. Do you refuse to date people of the race you don't like? Why don't you like that race? What makes the others better? This is racist.

Hair colour isn't a discrimination thing. I like green eyes. But I won't refuse somebody that doesn't have green eyes, because that's ridiculous. You probably wouldn't say no to a person with brown hair.

You're not getting it? I've never stated I don't date other races, just that I'm not attracted to them? Nothing makes them better? They can still be attractive but not my type? You are putting words in my mouth to support your argument because you have nothing else to use. And you haven't exactly refuted anything I've said.

Why don't you date girls? Huh? That's sexist? Why don't you like girls? What makes guys better? Nothing makes them better?
different situations yes. But both are preferences, and you just cannot comprehend.

Once again, you are making this place the unsafe place you bitched about. I posted nothing against your preferences, then I post mine, and you call me racist? You are a problem here. I'm actually pissed off because I'm in no way racist, I accept everyone. You are acting like you know me better than I know myself. You are wrong, and whether you admit it or not, you know it.


Edit;

Here, since you won't ****ing read Ill repeat myself.

They can still be attractive, just not my type.

Here I'll bold it.

They can still be attractive, just not my type.

You write off an entire sex, because They're not your type. It's all just preference. I have no problem with yours, I don't know why you do with mine

[Slade]

That's because it IS different. Having a "racial preference" is racist. This isn't difficult to understand. Do you refuse to date people of the race you don't like? Why don't you like that race? What makes the others better? This is racist.

Hair colour isn't a discrimination thing. I like green eyes. But I won't refuse somebody that doesn't have green eyes, because that's ridiculous. You probably wouldn't say no to a person with brown hair.

EDIT: Here, in some clearer words for you:

If you write off an ENTIRE race, an ENTIRE RACE of VARIED PEOPLE with any possible combination of features -- as if theyre just a monolith of people that look exactly the same -- as unattractive to you, its racist that youre monolithing an entire race and try and think about WHY it is that you think these features you think every single person in this race has are unattractive.

Nobody said they don't like a certain race. It's also been said there are attractive people of other races. So an entire race has not been written off.

[ssjup81]

That's because it IS different. Having a "racial preference" is racist. This isn't difficult to understand. Do you refuse to date people of the race you don't like? Why don't you like that race? What makes the others better? This is racist.

Hair colour isn't a discrimination thing. I like green eyes. But I won't refuse somebody that doesn't have green eyes, because that's ridiculous. You probably wouldn't say no to a person with brown hair.

EDIT: Here, in some clearer words for you:

If you write off an ENTIRE race, an ENTIRE RACE of VARIED PEOPLE with any possible combination of features -- as if theyre just a monolith of people that look exactly the same -- as unattractive to you, its racist that youre monolithing an entire race and try and think about WHY it is that you think these features you think every single person in this race has are unattractive.I think it's only racist if you generally hate said race or feel said race is inferior to you and that being the reason you won't date a person of said race. Or maybe those with a purist attitude.

I know a guy who is white, but doesn't care for girls with big rears or big boobs...he's not saying he wouldn't date a black girl or a Latina, he's just not attracted to those features which are generally associated with blacks and Latina girls. Most of the girls he dated were either white or Asian.

I'm in Japan. Some Japanese guys are cute, others look feminine in the face to me. I'm not attracted to that feature, so masculine looking guys I can find an attraction to and in all honesty, I feel that way about guys in general. I'm not putting down the race, just a feature associated with it.

[Electric]

I think it's only racist if you generally hate said race or feel said race is inferior to you and that being the reason you won't date a person of said race. Or maybe those with a purist attitude.

I know a guy who is white, but doesn't care for girls with big rears or big boobs...he's not saying he wouldn't date a black girl or a Latina, he's just not attracted to those features which are generally associated with blacks and Latina girls. Most of the girls he dated were either white or Asian.

I'm in Japan. Some Japanese guys are cute, others look feminine in the face to me. I'm not attracted to that feature, so masculine looking guys I can find an attraction to and in all honesty, I feel that way about guys in general. I'm not putting down the race, just a feature associated with it.

exactly

im not saying in any way that im better than them, or theyre not good enough, all im saying is im just generally not attracted to people of certain races. doesnt mean i cant get along or even be friends with them, just that they arent my type. can i pinpoint why? not really, and im not going to try, they just dont have an appearance that i prefer. its a preferance

once again, this isnt me saying they cant be attractive, they just arent my type

[Katie]

It's impossible to control a thread like this, you know.

These - I'm gonna call them Tumblresque - threads generally get locked because nobody can respect other people's life experience. Or other people's opinions. Everyone just thinks they are right and no other opinion could possibly be the right one.

I look at the discussion musashi brought. It's legitimate, but instead of having a rational discussion, everyone thinks they are being personally attacked. They are not. Their life experience is not being dismissed and it's laughable that anyone can feel "unsafe" from someone typing on a computer. Holy sh!t. Really? The words gonna jump off and strangle you?

The fact is, everyone has different life experience built by their social interactions. It would be so boring in this world if everyone thought alike. It isn't anyone's job to teach or correct anyone's perceived ignorance. That's dismissing THEIR life experience.

Sure, there is room for improvement in some areas....but people aren't "bad" or "evil" for not sharing your exact philosophy. And I see too much of that in these kinds of threads and really the internet at large.

People are polarized in this world because they cannot help trying to put down someone else for a belief or life experience that doesn't align with their own.

And, because it has to be made clear because of internet perception, I'm not attacking anyone or putting anyone down. Just sharing my life experience through the reading of posts in this thread and others. My life experience is valid. As is yours. Please respect one another's opinions even if they are different from your own.

[Cure]

I know I feel unsafe discussing my preference in chicks now.

Hint: butts.

[KROW]

That's because it IS different. Having a "racial preference" is racist. This isn't difficult to understand. Do you refuse to date people of the race you don't like? Why don't you like that race? What makes the others better? This is racist.

Hair colour isn't a discrimination thing. I like green eyes. But I won't refuse somebody that doesn't have green eyes, because that's ridiculous. You probably wouldn't say no to a person with brown hair.

EDIT: Here, in some clearer words for you:

If you write off an ENTIRE race, an ENTIRE RACE of VARIED PEOPLE with any possible combination of features -- as if theyre just a monolith of people that look exactly the same -- as unattractive to you, its racist that youre monolithing an entire race and try and think about WHY it is that you think these features you think every single person in this race has are unattractive.

With that line of thinking, if having a racial preference is racist, then having a sexual preference is sexist.

Perhaps people who choose to lay with white people instead of black just don't care for a black person's bone structure or body shape. Maybe black people are too tall or too wiry. Maybe they have a certain smell that's unappealing. Perhaps an Hispanic person gives off a better vibe than a white person. Or maybe an Asian gets a persons rocks off more than an Indian. It might be a culture thing.

Or, it might be from previous life experiences. Maybe a woman dated a black man once and got beat up or raped and therefore does not date black men anymore, not for fear that the whole race is like that, but the memory of it is triggered when she gets intimate with another black man later. Sometimes women go through that and stop being with men altogether, choosing to try a homosexual lifestyle for comfort and safety (it happens).

Choosing a person of a particular race is not particularly racist. Yes, there can be an instance that someone will not share their life with a Latino because they don't like Latinos, but that doesn't mean everyone who doesn't prefer Latinos in their bedroom is racist. The same thing applies with gender.

[The Stryker]

Here's the thing though. Guy brought up something to be discussed. In a discussion thread and everyone jumped down his throat and it became crazy.

If you want a private haven to do this kind of thing. There are groups on this site. Otherwise. I don't think the initial argument began with the explicit intent of trolling or tearing anything down. So what's the issue? It's not the guy bringing up his opinion or view on something because that should be welcomed since the title of the thread has the word 'discussion' in it.

But no. It immediately becomes 'You're ruining MY thread. Get out!'. Come on guys.

[Machias Banshee]

Well... that escalated quickly...

Everyone in this thread really needs to calm down. Trying to make a thread a 'safe haven', where any dissenting opinions are not allowed.... it's not going to work. You're dealing with humanity on a global scale here.

Everyone has different experiences that affect their lives. People can have hormonal imbalances that change the way their body works. People can be wired one gender on the inside and be another gender on the outside. Some people can have negative encounters that throw them off of certain sexual/gender preferences. Some people don't want to get involved in sexual relations, period.

Some people simply aren't interested in certain types of people... it's not racist or sexist. There is no set guidelines of what attracts people to each other. It's all nature.


Arguing on a ninja turtle forum about how nature works, how the mind works.... it's not going to change anyone. We all need to be respectful, and at the very least civil.


Now... I'm going to go and clean out the fighting itself. If you wish to discuss certain posts brought up in the thread, go ahead. If you're not interested in certain posts, nobody is holding a gun to your head. There are plenty of items in this thread to talk about.

[Prowler]

If not being attracted to a certain ethnic group is racist then I guess most people are racist, since most end up marrying people of their own nationality and also cultural and religious background.

Vast cultural differences between both parties can make it hard for a relationship to work.

[plastroncafe]

Let's talk about attraction.

How old were you when you first started finding yourself attracted to whomever you happen to find yourself attracted to?

[Prowler]

Let's talk about attraction.

How old were you when you first started finding yourself attracted to whomever you happen to find yourself attracted to?
I started finding girls attractive when I was 13, I guess?

[Slade]

I had my first crush on this brunette girl when I was 4.

[Cure]

I had my first crush on this brunette girl when I was 4.

Around the same time for me. I wanted to share my snack with this fine honey in Kindergarten so badly. Like, hey girl, want some of my cheese?

[Netkeeper]

I think I had my first crush on a guy when I was around 9.

[Slade]

Around the same time for me. I wanted to share my snack with this fine honey in Kindergarten so badly. Like, hey girl, want some of my cheese?

Kindergarten was when I got my first "girlfriend". We used to hold hands in the library at story time and at recess. Still know the girl...wouldn't hold her hand now though...:ohwell:

[Cure]

Dayyuuumn, holding hands at recess AND story time? You dog, you.

[Leo656]

I fell in love with boobs around 3 or 4; my Dad used to watch porn on the living room TV at night and I used to stay up way too late. I had a "girlfriend" from Kindergarten through second grade, too, but she moved at the start of third grade and we didn't see each other again. I still think about her, she was really sweet and I hope she's doing okay in life.

All the boys in my family bloom early. My nephew was hitting on his older sister's friends when he was 5. It's wacky. My sister bitches about it; "He's exactly like you, it's awful." :lol:

[Slade]

Dayyuuumn, holding hands at recess AND story time? You dog, you.

Well you know..:lol:

Too bad she didn't stay cute.

[Leo656]

Well you know..:lol:

Too bad she didn't stay cute.

Oh hell yeah, dude, I know the feeling. My high school girlfriend had some big-azz tittays for a skinny little white girl, but ten years later when I ran into her at a wrestling show, she looked like she'd spent her entire twenties freebasing glazed ham. It was baaaaad.

[Cure]

Or how about when you find out that an ex from school has like 5 kids? Like, Jesus Christ.

[Slade]

Or they're even hotter and you kick yourself in the ass for not hanging on..:lol:

[Netkeeper]

Hm, a guy I knew in high school has better looking hair now... but the rest of him looks the same.

He's cute. I've considered the idea of us dating a few times. Not sure if it'd work out though.

[BubblyShell22]

Wow. Things took a turn pretty quickly here.

I first became attracted to guys when I became a teenager. I never dated in high school though because I just never liked any of my classmates in that way. They were just good friends and nothing more.

[plastroncafe]

I knew I was interested in both guys and girls pretty early on. Kindergarten age. Which was not great for me, because when I liked a girl I treated her like the boys were taught to treat her:

I was mean to her.

[Netkeeper]

Wow. Things took a turn pretty quickly here.

I first became attracted to guys when I became a teenager. I never dated in high school though because I just never liked any of my classmates in that way. They were just good friends and nothing more.
I didn't have my first boyfriend until I was 15. A lot of people think that's late. But I've never been bothered by people that decided to start dating later on, since it isn't my business.

I knew I was interested in both guys and girls pretty early on. Kindergarten age. Which was not great for me, because when I liked a girl I treated her like the boys were taught to treat her:

I was mean to her.
Aw :(

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

I didn't have my first boyfriend until I was 15. A lot of people think that's late. But I've never been bothered by people that decided to start dating later on, since it isn't my business.

I'm 17, and I've never had a Girlfriend.:ohwell:

[pennydreadful]

Good discussion topic, plastron! For me, it's hard to say... my attraction to women has always been a nebulous presence as far back as I can really remember. I was fairly naive when it came to dating and sex and things like that, so (perhaps stupidly) I never actively thought of it in terms of attraction because it just seemed natural to me. Kind of like that line in But I'm A Cheerleader - I sort of assumed that everybody felt that way about other girls; wanting to be physically close to them and wishing they'd touch my hair and things like that.

I will say that my opposite-sex attraction took a much, much longer time to develop, as opposed to my same-sex attractions. Let me put it this way - I didn't date (or have any real interest) in guys all through highschool (with the sole exception of one goth dude who I had the most socially inept crush on), but I did spend basically my entire primary and high school years crushing on girls whilst still managing to not assign the word "lesbian" to any of those feelings.

It was so pathetic - I'd be like "Hmm, I like her, I don't know why but I think I'll do all of her homework assignments for her... and for some reason I hate her boyfriend but I don't understand why, it totally doesn't mean that I'm gay." :lol: I was so clueless and lame.

[Electric]

I'm 17, and I've never had a Girlfriend.:ohwell:

dont worry man, its not a big deal.

im 17 as well, and while i have had a couple girlfriends before, ive been single for a little while now. just enjoy it! you'll naturally find someone

[Netkeeper]

It was so pathetic - I'd be like "Hmm, I like her, I don't know why but I think I'll do all of her homework assignments for her... and for some reason I hate her boyfriend but I don't understand why, it totally doesn't mean that I'm gay." :lol: I was so clueless and lame.
I had a friend who was the same way! He used to write fanfiction that shipped two male characters together and always fantasized about them kissing but he didn't even THINK he might be gay until he was 17.

I knew about that kind of attraction from a young age, so it was conscious knowledge for me when I was young.

[pennydreadful]

Hey headbands, I didn't have my first girlfriend until I was 20... and it ended badly. Like, restraining order because she was a psycho badly. So... know that no matter how pitiful you may feel, your luck will probably never be as terrible with women as mine. :lol: Between that and crushing on taken or straight women... I have an almost laser-like ability to develop a mad crush on the most unobtainable woman in the room. It's uncanny.

In fact, I have the ultimate pathetic story to top all pathetic stories - and man, if this don't make you feel better, nothing will: had a mad crush on this girl called Crystal all through highschool. Typed her assignments for her, followed her around like a puppy, and wanted to gouge out her boyfriends' eyeballs with a dull spork for years. You know the drill.

Post graduation, I fessed up that I liked her while we're hanging out at my place. She said she didn't feel that way about girls, but if she did, she'd y'know, think of me. Cue the sound of hope springing eternal.

The same night, she gets drunk and makes out with my nemesister in the next room.

Never one for halfway failure (when I commit to being a loser, I go the full way) - I took her to a lesbian bar with me a few months later (because I was too shy to go alone). Aaaand she ended up ditching me and making out with another girl at the club, while I stood in the corner practicing my social ineptitude. Thus proving that it wasn't that girls were off the table when it came to her - it was that I just wasn't her particular taste.

Now if that don't make you feel a teensy bit better, nothing will. :lol:

[Netkeeper]

Jesus christ that's awful.

[plastroncafe]

Never EVER feel bad about yourself because of your relationship status. Other people do not give you worth. All they can do is reflect back or amplify what you've already got inside.

[BubblyShell22]

I didn't have my first boyfriend until I was 15. A lot of people think that's late. But I've never been bothered by people that decided to start dating later on, since it isn't my business.


Aw :(

I didn't have a boyfriend in high school and didn't have one until college. Now we've been together eleven years, and that's awesome.

And don't feel bad if you're not in a relationship, guys. It'll happen when it's meant to.

[pennydreadful]

Agreed - and like RuPaul says:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/ce2931a48b27e3b7b8ccc37de66df197/tumblr_mved1iKomo1qlvwnco1_r1_400.gif

There is a lot of emphasis in our society on having to be in a relationship, that without that one thing your life isn't complete - but it's really not true.

We all like having another person for company and fleshy funtimes - but you've got to be happy with yourself, by yourself as well.

And truth be told, I don't think there's any magic formula for success in love, dating and associated things - everybody gets rejected (admittedly, some more frequently than others); but you just have to keep picking yourself up, dusting yourself off and trying again. Personally, I'd rather make a move on someone and be crushingly, humiliatingly and publicly rejected than be too afraid to let someone know I liked them and spend my life wondering if it was a missed opportunity.

If I knew what the secret was to success with women... well, I'd be too busy playing Casanova to a bevy of adoring women to be typing on this messageboard right now, but I think confidence has something to do with it.

[pennydreadful]

Just wanted to share a documentary on asexuality for those who might be interested:

fcSlwAjgJqU

[shuriken]

^^Neat

All the boys in my family bloom early. My nephew was hitting on his older sister's friends when he was 5. It's wacky. My sister bitches about it; "He's exactly like you, it's awful." :lol:

I did that. I apparently tell my sister's friends or my brother's girlfriends I liked em or other stuff when I was 5. (Both of my siblings were older, my sis is 5 years older, my bro is 12 years older)
I musta mellowed out or lost all of my game since I never had an official girlfriend until I was 12. Our first "date" was at this roller rink. :roll:

[Leo656]

I took plenty of dates to a roller rink, wise guy. Chicks love Couples Skate, interspersed with brief rounds of "Terminator 2" co-op.

[shuriken]

I took plenty of dates to a roller rink, wise guy. Chicks love Couples Skate, interspersed with brief rounds of "Terminator 2" co-op.

:lol:
We actually played X-Men arcade co-op.
Fun times...

[BubblyShell22]

Awesome video, Penny. Thanks for sharing.

[plastroncafe]

I took plenty of dates to a roller rink, wise guy. Chicks love Couples Skate, interspersed with brief rounds of "Terminator 2" co-op.

You add in some skeeball and that right there is a perfect date.

[CyberCubed]

This thread is relevant again so I'm bringing it back up.

[Leo656]

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/39564573.jpg

[IndigoErth]

Relevant again? Because of fictional characters...? Eh. Don't think it ever stopped being relevant since that's life.

Only thing bumping this did was making me wonder what some of those absent members are up to these days...

[DarkFell]

This thread is relevant again so I'm bringing it back up.
Oh, just admit it already Cubed: you're B O R E D.

[NeonTurtledude]

Firstly, it's good that this thread is here

secondly, I'm gonna explain a bit about my own experiences

most of the time I'm attracted to people regardless of what gender they are, but in my case, it varies depending on my mood, somedays I'll be thinking mostly about women and other days men.

my attraction to women took a long time to figure out, I'm much more open about it now, but when it comes to men, it's either occasional or barely there at all,

as for gender, that has also been its own journey, I like being referred to as a dude most of the time, as a kid I enjoyed playing with boys, collecting bob the builder and Thomas train toys, playing video games etc.

There were aspects of girl experiences that I didn't connect to or found restrictive, when I was a part of an Aladdin play where I got to play a boy character, I liked being able to do that, getting more into classic rock, British comedy and anime also showed me examples of men I admired and wanted to look like,

but like sexuality, gender is something that depends on my mood, most of the time I'll feel like a dude and other times not

aesthetically I don't look like a "typical man", I look like a less muscled 2003 Casey Jones, but seeing characters like him make me feel happier about my appearance.

[Cowabung-Gal]

I await the day Disney gives us the first lesbian princess. Most people already think its Elsa.

Maybe not a lesbian princess as of yet, but there have been quite a few lesbians in Disney media lately.

[Cowabung-Gal]

i3oM-MZj3rM

…ew.

No thanks.

[Andrew NDB]

Transgender woman wins San Francisco beauty pageant, first in 99 years... and says her goal is to be a role model for young children?!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/for-1st-time-in-99-years-california-crowns-transgender-woman-in-beauty-pageant/ar-AA1eyvZi?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=6cce196d1cc3457eaf26ab4fbd4d03ed&ei=40

[Sumac]

Where's vomit smiley when you need one?

[Coola Yagami]

For better or for worse, this is gonna be the new normal. This is the next women's rights and gay rights movement. Not that I'm saying women and gays shouldn't have equal rights, of course they should. I just mean it in the way that this movement is not going to go away and will persist in pretty much the same way.

Unless a war breaks out in the US or something. First world problems tend to disappear in a hurry when we have actual things to worry about. Kinda like 9/11. I'm sure we had petty problems back then too but they all vanished for a few weeks when we all decided to come together and were afraid war was going to break out on American soil.

[Sumac]

For better or for worse, this is gonna be the new normal. This is the next women's rights and gay rights movement. Not that I'm saying women and gays shouldn't have equal rights, of course they should. I just mean it in the way that this movement is not going to go away and will persist in pretty much the same way.
I don't think its gonna be new normal. Slowly but surely tide is turning - SJW / leftards pushed too hard and now they will receive inevitable pushback. The question is how far it will push those freaks? One of the recent examples is a Bud Light fiasco, which actually tanked company profits.

It is even more funny, if you consider that Leftists are constantly cry about boycotting this and that and it never leads to anything - Hogwarts Legacy, despite massive campaign on Twatter, which included bullying, harassment, black lists, death threats, pity parties and so on, didn't stop game from selling 76 million copies in less than a 6 months. At this point corporats might start thinking whether or not they need to go hardcore for the leftards dicks or they can just do whatever they want, without engaging in lefty politics.

Besides, trans craziness is not some kind of abstract political ideology (well, not only that), it physically tries to redefine natural concepts, which are immutable. So I more or less confident that few more scandals and more and more people will turn on them and ask some uncomfortable questions, which will push those pedofreaks in the background where they belong.

Yeah, they probably won't fade away completely, sadly, but their influence will surely will be diminished to the point where "misgendering" fat ugly man won't net you a cancelation.

As for the "war / disaster in US can stop it" I don't think it is as simple. Leftards are a global issue of the West. Not only in US. I hoped that the whole thing with Russia gonna put some heads back to their shoulders and it did to a degree, but just not enough.

I find it incredibly hilarious, when certain Western news channel reports about trans people issues in Russia, as if it was THE MAIN PROBLEM in this day and age. This country barely can accept Gays and you are pushing obviously mental ill fetishists and pedos as normal?! What kind of reaction do you expect?

But things are not so grim, as I said: world economy is not feeling well, which will force more and more corporats think about survival, not pandering to the mentally sick lazy idiots. We can see it on example of Disney, which sustained so much loss, there are talks that some parts of the company can be sold off.

So we'll see. As usual I am optimistic about this stuff.
Humanity weathered much worse ideologies and religions, so I think, it can digest this crap too as well.

[CyberCubed]

For better or for worse, this is gonna be the new normal. This is the next women's rights and gay rights movement. Not that I'm saying women and gays shouldn't have equal rights, of course they should. I just mean it in the way that this movement is not going to go away and will persist in pretty much the same way.l.

Honestly...yeah. This reminds me of decades ago in like the 90's or early 2000's people thought gay's/lesbians would just "go away" or at least "stay out of sight" and instead more people came out than ever before in the coming decades and TV shows/movies include tons of homosexual pairings all the time now. I remember how in the early 2000's seeing Madonna and Britney Spears kiss in 2004 on the music awards was so shocking but if something like that happened today nobody would even care.

The only time I ever saw transgender people back then was on the Jerry Springer show, and it was more like crossdressers rather than full-on gender changes.

Come to think of it, what do crossdressers count as now? They tend to be fully biologically male even if they wear women's clothing, so they don't count as trans, right?

[NeonTurtledude]

Come to think of it, what do crossdressers count as now? They tend to be fully biologically male even if they wear women's clothing, so they don't count as trans, right?

Depends on the crossdresser/drag artist

Most of them are not trans, they are usually biologically men, but sometimes women too, there was one on drag race UK called Victoria Scone

However some drag race queens have transitioned to women since then, not all though, queens like Trixie Mattel are still guys under the wigs and Miss Piggy makeup

crossdressers are either just guys/girls who happen to crossdress or if they do it professionally as drag, then they are drag artists/performers or "dames" (if it's for musical theatre)

[Andrew NDB]

Come to think of it, what do crossdressers count as now? They tend to be fully biologically male even if they wear women's clothing, so they don't count as trans, right?

They're still crossdressers. Just... now pushed more into becoming trans. Like tomboys are giving way to trans men.

[Coola Yagami]

Yeah, they're pushing heavy on femboys and tomboys to transition. So far the ones that aren't lefist are saying 'no' and continuing to carry on without subscribing to that nonsense.

Trans-Twitter is just... weird. There was an anime a while back about a tomboy girl that falls for her best friend, but the best friend is so used to her being a tomboy he doesn't really see her a woman, hence several attempts for the the 'will they/won't they'. Trans-Twitter complained that even though the character was masculine, the thought of transitioning never even crosses her mind. Like... why would it? She's just a tomboy, she's not suffering gender dysphorria. She's just not the overly girly dress-wearing type.

Trans-Twitter has this weird contradiction infinity loop where they want to get rid of regular gender norms but at the same time if a guy or girl goes against their regular gender norms then they must be trans. Just makes no sense.

[Sumac]

Honestly...yeah. This reminds me of decades ago in like the 90's or early 2000's people thought gay's/lesbians would just "go away" or at least "stay out of sight" and instead more people came out than ever before in the coming decades and TV shows/movies include tons of homosexual pairings all the time now. I remember how in the early 2000's seeing Madonna and Britney Spears kiss in 2004 on the music awards was so shocking but if something like that happened today nobody would even care.
I'd say Gays and Lesbians have faded in the background.
The biggest news about them is when another retarded director from a Holyweird starts blabbering how progressive they are for including another background Gay character in their movie.

Partially it is informed by the fact that various cretins are trying to jump on a "woke" bandwagon and partially, because, people who 10 years ago would have proclaimed themselves "Gay for fame (and controversy, which helps to bring attention)", nowadays proclaim themselves non-binary battle helicopters.

Regular Gays and Lesbians are just living their lives and unsurprisingly a lot of them disgusted with a state of LGB and the whole transfreakery. Not in the least due to constant attacks from trans for daring to ignore them as sexual partners. Which, you know, the whole point of a sexuality in the first place. Twice as funny, since most of the arguments of trans sound very much like that of the conservatives back in the day: "Just try to **** this dick, darling and you will like it". Imagine if anyone straight attempted to say this to a Lesbian. But trans are getting away with it and more. It is sad.

Come to think of it, what do crossdressers count as now? They tend to be fully biologically male even if they wear women's clothing, so they don't count as trans, right?
Transcult can't make their minds about it: on one hand crossdressers prove that you can dress as whatever you want and NOT identify yourself with an opposite sex (which goes against transcult ideology). On the other, they can be viewed as a first step for trans to "discover themselves".
And if this sounds like a cultish nonsense, well, that's transcult in a nutshell.

Yeah, they're pushing heavy on femboys and tomboys to transition. So far the ones that aren't lefist are saying 'no' and continuing to carry on without subscribing to that nonsense.
Now imagine if all people who defied gender norms and were roped into transtioning, gonna sue medical organizations and trasncults for it, when they discover that transtioning didn't alleviate their problems. I feel like we can see something like this in the future anyway.

Trans-Twitter is just... weird. There was an anime a while back about a tomboy girl that falls for her best friend, but the best friend is so used to her being a tomboy he doesn't really see her a woman, hence several attempts for the the 'will they/won't they'. Trans-Twitter complained that even though the character was masculine, the thought of transitioning never even crosses her mind. Like... why would it? She's just a tomboy, she's not suffering gender dysphorria. She's just not the overly girly dress-wearing type.

Trans-Twitter has this weird contradiction infinity loop where they want to get rid of regular gender norms but at the same time if a guy or girl goes against their regular gender norms then they must be trans. Just makes no sense.
Bingo!
Trans ideology is based on mutually exclusive ideas on top of mutually exclusive ideas.

It becomes extremely funny if you confuse them with their own beliefs, because, they can't answer without putting foot in their mouth. Though, usually they just call you transphobe-nazi, trump supporter and go away, being proud they defend "honor" of their religion.
Pathetic insane degenerates.

[Bahamut810]

Come to think of it, what do crossdressers count as now? They tend to be fully biologically male even if they wear women's clothing, so they don't count as trans, right?

It depends, people are going to be calming down in the coming years and the trend is going to blow by. Hopefully all the trans-trenders, rapid onset gender dysphoria and the people whose lives arent interesting enough so they just have to be cat gender go the way of the past soon so people with gender dysphoria can become more accepted by society without authoritarians trying to force speech and get all rpey which pisses people off.

[CyberCubed]

I'd say Gays and Lesbians have faded in the background. .

That's exactly because it became the new normal. Even back in the early 2000's, like say 2000-2008 or so, it was still a "big deal" when any popular actor, singer, etc. came out as gay in real life. Like it was such a huge deal. Nowadays if something like that happens, most...don't really care. Kevin Conroy is gay, most didn't care...imagine if people knew that in the 90's when B:TAS was airing?

Back then a gay or lesbian kiss in a TV show or movie was a huge deal. Whenever it happened it was usually a ratings ploy, but now it became so common it's not really a big thing to do anymore, it's just expected.

Transgender stuff now reminds me of how gay/lesbian stuff was in the 90's and early 2000's. Granted I don't think it'll ever become as accepted as a whole, but it's...kinda leading in that direction.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Question: if you dated girls in the past but are now dating boys, does that make you bisexual or gay?

[NeonTurtledude]

Question: if you dated girls in the past but are now dating boys, does that make you bisexual or gay?

depends on the person

they could just be bi

but if they eventually end up exclusively dating boys and acknowledge that is what they are into, then they are gay

[Coola Yagami]

Question: if you dated girls in the past but are now dating boys, does that make you bisexual or gay?

Bi. I mean your tastes never change. You might have decided to date only men now, but you'd still find a naked woman sexually attractive. Just not enough to actually want to date one.

[Sumac]

That's exactly because it became the new normal.
That's kind of what I've meant.
Hopefully trans will never become "new normal".

[Dpooly84]

That's kind of what I've meant.
Hopefully trans will never become "new normal".

I don't think that's possible. Another thing if these pronouns are so easily transferable what significance do they truly have? If you identify as gay one week, bi the next, trans the next, then a trans lesbianism the following, what weight do these terms even hold? And if you they don't have any respect for them, how can they expect anyone else to?

[CyberCubed]

Futurama predicted robosexuals.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Futurama predicted robosexuals.

They predict everything, like The Simpsons

[Sumac]

I don't think that's possible. Another thing if these pronouns are so easily transferable what significance do they truly have? If you identify as gay one week, bi the next, trans the next, then a trans lesbianism the following, what weight do these terms even hold? And if you they don't have any respect for them, how can they expect anyone else to?
They don't have any respect for their own terms, because, modern LGBT+ is not about "freeing from oppression". It is about getting attention and power. Just like any other cult, they can break their own rules and literally have mutually exclusive opinions, depending on the situation, if it benefits them, but if you do that - you are suddenly a Nazi.

Which is why trans could get away with **** they did, like saying "you can identify as a woman without official diagnosis", but in the same breath demanding free pills and operations from a state and respect of their pronoun from the complete strangers.

They are psychotic power hungry fetishists and perverts, but most of all, they are losers.

They are incapable of normal human interactions and basically replace them with their horrendous "pronounce" ****, to give themselves some sort of identity and "accomplishment". Otherwise, they are "invisible" nobodies, with no achievements to their names, with no ability to achieve anything. Just good-for-nothings who in any other time and place would be forgotten.

[Andrew NDB]

Figures. Can't have this going on...

https://www.foxnews.com/media/doctor-vows-keep-fighting-despite-facing-prison-time-exposing-transgender-practices-need-win

[Coola Yagami]

Surprised this wasn't constantly bumped. it seems every week or so there's something in the news about this kind of stuff. Especially now that the pendulum started swinging the other way.

[ToTheNines]

More like penisdreadful

[Coola Yagami]

More like penisdreadful

huh???

diez caracteres

[IndigoErth]

Er, yeah, I dunno about making fun of her. Isn't Penny supposedly possibly no longer among the living? Or I remember hearing somewhere that was suspected might be the case... :ohwell:

She was a nice person though, so I hope it's not true and just found other interests or different places to hang out.

[CyberCubed]

I don't know if she's alive or not, but I remember she used to say she worked for an abusive boss who also sexually abused her. Kind of weird she didn't quit after that, but I don't know her personal life.

Some people just vanish from forums and move on with their lives. It doesn't mean that they died.

[sdp]

Well most people who were members here were Gen X kids and TMNT was like the last cartoon of their childhood before turning into teenagers, they're all in their late 40s or 50s now I guess. Counting the people who posted on forums in that era were likely not the most active and healthy in eating it's fair to say a lot of dromers are going to be dropping like flies in the next decade or so.

[ToTheNines]

Er, yeah, I dunno about making fun of her. Isn't Penny supposedly possibly no longer among the living? Or I remember hearing somewhere that was suspected might be the case... :ohwell:

She was a nice person though, so I hope it's not true and just found other interests or different places to hang out.

I wasn’t making fun of her, just a stupid joke based on the thread title. I always thought she was cool, but we didn’t really interact much.

Had no idea people thought she passed away. Is there any evidence of that? Or she just disappeared? I’d like to believe the latter, but we have many fallen dromers already.

[IMJ]

We went to a Comedy Club in the Northwest Suburbs to see Kevin James Thornton the other day. He was really good. All three of the comedians that night were gay - so the place was an absolute gayfest if you could imagine the mix of the crowd. :lol:

[Andrew NDB]

https://i.ibb.co/1GknQJTk/515439261-23923110257317002-4021753535615057368-n.jpg

[IndigoErth]

You wanna provide some context?

[Andrew NDB]

You wanna provide some context?

Sure.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/american-eagle-sparks-backlash-touting-sydney-sweeneys-great-jeans-rcna221478

7G2JSj8MlJM

[FredWolfLeonardo]

In short, she made a word play on good jeans by saying good genes.

[IndigoErth]

Doesn't even matter what "side" it is anymore, both are bad about it and people are making too much of a hobby out of being reactionary and always hunting for things to be outraged at.


Only thing I see that I hate in that ad is how she's speaking. Sounds too much like Megan Fox in those TMNT movies delivering half her lines like she mistook it for the opening scene of a porno. Girl stop.


Though the shared post is really stupid itself. "I believe democrats are saying a stupid thing about this woman! So I'll bring someone else into it who is totally unrelated to the issue to underhandedly say something else stupid!"



Edit: Bath water in soap? What will men fall for next.... Is that the original bath water girl or someone else who just stole the idea for her own use?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Who even watches ads for jeans? :tlol:

I'm fairly indifferent to the ad which I haven't even seen but it caught my attention due to all the articles that popped up about it.

[Andrew NDB]

"They/them" surprised to wake up and find $0 in their bank account:
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/former-disney-child-star-woke-up-zero-dollars-bank-account-after-nearly-20-years-showbiz

What a stupid person.

[ToTheNines]

I’m tryna she/them titties.

[Andrew NDB]

Gonna CIS my pants!!

[ToTheNines]

I got gender fluid in mine.