Third Film Thoughts

[Powder]

Disclaimer: Don't use the mention of this movie as an excuse to bash it. TMNT3 & Next Mutation can't seem to get be brought up without there being a hate train. Just wanna discuss some things I noticed & see what your thoughts are.

1. The scrolls.

Okay, so in the flick, Lord Norinaga has these (probably centuries old) scrolls, that depict his ancestors being slain by "demons" or "kappa", though they're clearly the TMNT, or some variation on them. What's the story behind this? What is this there to suggest, & how/why does it play into the plot of the film? Are we to believe that there is/was a future event in which the turtles travel back even farther in time, to defeat a warlord who's bloodline would later include Norinaga? Were there plans of addressing this that were later scrapped? Why don't the turtles question this? Does the film canon imply that, much like The Legend Of Zelda, every some-odd thousand years new versions of the heroes are born, as it is their fate to save mankind?

2. *Snip!*

In Leonardo's face-off with Lord Norinaga, rather than kill him (which would never happen in such an as of that point kiddified universe) he opts to cut his hair. It's a funny scene, the act itself makes for a funny gag, but I'm wondering if there was any more thought put into the decision to feature it. In the days of the Samurai, the top-knot hair style was a status symbol, meaning you ranked high socially, or were in power, etc. To lose it meant dishonor. Most of the time you would be thought of as a disgrace, & kicked out of your social circle, if not worse. As a Daimyo, losing that top-knot would put Norinaga in a very bad position. In the film, Leonardo can read Kanji (from the 1600's, mind you, which is near impossible to read compared to the modern stuff) & has an interest in, if no other aspect of Japanese culture, their swords. So does this mean Leonardo knew what he was doing, that he would effectively be stripping him of his societal power? Towards the end of the film, he is seen among dirty peasants, as he brings the scepter back to the shrine. Did he opt to use them as his aids, or was he now their equal?

3. Nods to modern characters

Whitt: Is he supposed to literally be a relative of Casey Jones, or did they do that as a means to give Elias more screen time? April goes "Casey?" to him, clearly seeing the resemblance, & later in the film Raph asks "Hey pal, you got a relative in Brooklyn? Ha, naaah." so they obviously went to lengths to bring this point up. Is it left to ones own interpretation?

Norinaga/Yoshi: The concept behind the conflict in Japan, is that there are two families pit against eachother. Mitsu & her village (which includes family of hers), & Norinaga & his ilk. Mitsu's sibling has the name Yoshi, which of course brings to mind Hamato Yoshi, Splinter's sensei. Norinaga, & his ancestor (as seen in the scrolls) wear a spiked helmet, like Shredder. In his case, I'm reaching a bit, but is he supposed to be an ancestor of Oroku Saki? The TMNT property has always had inconsistencies, errors, & cultural mix-ups, but these mistakes are what give theories like this some breathing room. So essentially, are we to believe that this feud is actually the start of the Saki/Yoshi beef? Alternately, is Kenshin/Norinaga actually the ancestor of the Hamato family, & did marrying Mitsu after the influence of the turtles start their clan?

4. The turtles' cultural impact

Did Michelangelo inadvertently invent nunchaku by giving his to Mitsu? This film takes place in the 1600's, but nunchaku were not known to exist until the 1700's, in China. The popular belief is that they originated in Okinawa Japan, though this was proven false... unless Lord Norinaga's castle was in Okinawa. :trazz:

The TMNT indirectly helped put an end to Samurai era. Japan really held out on moving from swords to firearms, but a large portion of their soldiers were eventually armed... to fight the TMNT. Good job, guys. :trazz:

I had another point I wanted to raise but I forgot what it was. Hopefully I'll remember. At any rate, what do you guys think of this stuff?

[Slade]

I'm falling asleep here, but I will try to respond. I may have to try this again later though.

Anyway. First part. Yeah, I have always wondered what the deal with the 'kappa' being on the scrolls was. It would seem that the guys do travel back further, but also, could the scrolls be depicting actual kappa? Then again, that wouldn't make sense. Why would kappa be fighting with those guys on the scrolls. So, it has to be the turtles.

2. I find interesting. I had no clue of any of that. I imagine Leo does know all that stuff, but I think the scene was really just meant to be funny. Then again...if you go back to #1, this movie is starting to seem like it may be one of those with deeper nods and such that you have to think about...

3. I think it's both an ancestor of Casey's and to give Elias more screen time. As for the Norinaga/Yoshi thing, I'm too tired to touch. Try and get back to you on that one.

4. I got no idea.

[Werecat]

I'll share what little info I can. I remember a few years back in another TMNT fan forum that brought up the scrolls and the Japanese legend. Apparently, some fans, of the other site, said that there is an actual Japanese Legend very similar to TMNT. I can not find any evidence to validate their statement. So the only truth about that scroll is doubtful. It is more likely the writers just made it up to give the turtle's presence more importance.

I know nunchaku are a non lethal weapon 'cause the initial damage is weak so it requires multiple hits to become lethal. Since the nunchaku are a weak weapon I doubt its presence impacted any wars.

Lastly, I think you put a lot of thought into this. All TMNT incarnations are not known for their writing prowess. Their original plot is interesting and full of untapped potential. The sequels and other incarnations few successes is bringing more attention to the turtles. Some original and reinterpreted ideas are questionable so I think it would be wise to not blindly accept ideas. What I am trying to say is Most of TMNT writings are questionable so you should not treat every interpretation as principle. Obviously we are just trying to make sense of poorly thought out ideas, its not gonna lead us anywhere.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I've thought about most if not all of these topics before and may have even mentioned some of them in other threads about the movie. I always wondered about the scrolls. It could be that the turtles DID travel back in time in their future to an even further away past to defeat Norinaga's ancestor. Or it could be that turtles from another reality in the multiverse were somehow transported there to fight an ancestor of Norinaga's. I say this because the point is made that the turtles on the scroll are very similar to our turtles, but slightly different, implying that they could have come from another world altogether.

An important point not brought up is that the movie "Turtles in Time" was originally supposed to be a darker film more based on Mirage material (just as Perry was originally going to be an Utrom in "The Secret of the Ooze"). April is ultimately substituted for Renet, but the idea of Raphael being the influence for the Foot Clan is still present, in my opinion. Yoshi the child is very impressionable, and Raphael tries to instill in him the same sorts of things Splinter tried to instill in him via caring and kindness, only two films before-- which would mean that ironically, the values instilled in Splinter by HIS master Yoshi were a direct result of the values instilled in his ancestor by Raphael.

So let's say that Norinaga is a Shredder ancestor, which isn't a far stretch since as a character he's pretty much Shredder if Shredder had lived during Feudal times (he's a tyrant, much like Ch'rell in the 4Kids series, but ineffectual like the Fred Wolf Shredder-- Walker is pretty much the film's version of Krang). That would make Kenshin a Shredder ancestor, and Kenshin's hot-headedness and ability to fly into a rage even when he's not even in actual danger make this VERY plausible. That would make any child fathered by Kenshin with Mitsu an Oroku, and any child fathered by Yoshi a Hamato. Mitsu and Yoshi's grandfather is very much a Hamato Yoshi/Splinter type also so none of this seems like a far stretch to me. I honestly think a lot of this movie was very Eastman and Laird driven until the producers got their hands on it and said "we can't have this." Yet some of the more serious elements that are present in a lot of TMNT lore remained. I also think that the woman in the story Michelangelo was writing in an issue of Mirage Vol. 1 was the basis for Mitsu, and the grandfather, Mitsu, and Yoshi also have a cameo in the 4Kids series when the turtles wind up having to fight Feudal Ch'rell within the Utrom's virtual reality program.

[pingclang]

I think you're reading into it too much. TMNT 3 was just a typical kids movie of 90's. I think most of what happens in the story is just meant to entertain kids, which it did, and the rest is to keep parents from killing themselves.

[Raven]

1. The scrolls.

Okay, so in the flick, Lord Norinaga has these (probably centuries old) scrolls, that depict his ancestors being slain by "demons" or "kappa", though they're clearly the TMNT, or some variation on them. What's the story behind this? What is this there to suggest, & how/why does it play into the plot of the film? Are we to believe that there is/was a future event in which the turtles travel back even farther in time, to defeat a warlord who's bloodline would later include Norinaga? Were there plans of addressing this that were later scrapped? Why don't the turtles question this? Does the film canon imply that, much like The Legend Of Zelda, every some-odd thousand years new versions of the heroes are born, as it is their fate to save mankind?


As a kid I never put any thought into the scroll, beside the fact that it was just cool. Since you bring it up, what the heck was it suppose to be and imply?

For some reason when ever the scroll appeared I instantly thought of Turtles in Time the game and just tacked that onto the scene, but now I'm really interested in what the intention behind that was.

Good points! I've never really thought anything further into this one movie other then it was a fun movie.

[Sumac]

Thank you for the post. Those are very interesting thoughts about TMNT3. As I always said: "there are no bad ideas, just bad executions". TMNT3 was full of potential for the interesting ideas, but came out luckluster.

1) I think Kappa scroll was there, just to explain why people confused Turtles for the specific kind of demons.

2) I knew about "cutting long hair - means dishonor" thing and found it quite amusing that Leo did exactly that. I think he could knew about it prior to the events of the movie. He could have learned that from Splinter or on his own.

3) and 4) I think it would have been fun, if story was taken into that direction. Still, I always personally thought, that Yoshi in feodal Japan was some ancestor for the Hamato Yoshi, it just never has been spelt outright in the movie.

[pennydreadful]

Great post, Powder - you've raised some very interesting questions.

As far as the scroll goes... I never really could quite figure it out; whether it was actually meant to have some kind of significance in the timeline or whether it was just coincidental that their kappa happen to look exactly like the Turtles.

As far as the Daimyo's hair, I think Leo knew what he was doing and that the joke was included as it worked on two levels - both on the basic comedic level and in the context of "cutting the Daimyo down to size", so to speak, without defeating him in combat.

Re Casey and Yoshi, I had always thought that they were ancestors. The Norinaga/Mitsu marriage and questions as to the clan bloodlines prior to or following that, I'm not sure - but it's a good thing to ponder.

If Mikey's nunchaku influenced ancient Japan's weapon styles, I'd definitely be interested to know whether the honor guards who went to New York implemented any of their time-travel experiences into their home culture!

[CyberCubed]

I had always assumed the scrolls meant the Turtles had a second time travel adventure later on where they went even further back to ancient Japan.

[Powder]

This is worth a bump, would like to see more of your thoughts on this.

[Anton Chigurh]

This is worth a bump, would like to see more of your thoughts on this.

Like another poster post earlier, I think you over thinking it a bit and reaching, however it sounds great what you posted, only if the production of that film put that much thought into it.

I too believe it was just thrown together, and at that time I believe time travel was a "flavor of the week" type of thing in movies during its production.

Cool stuff though.

[THGhost]

Did Michelangelo inadvertently invent nunchaku by giving his to Mitsu? This film takes place in the 1600's, but nunchaku were not known to exist until the 1700's, in China. The popular belief is that they originated in Okinawa Japan, though this was proven false... unless Lord Norinaga's castle was in Okinawa. :trazz:

I think that's definitely what the movie was implying, even if it isn't entirely historically correct. The movie itself certainly doesn't care about that.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

One interesting thing is the sequence where Leonardo warns all of the others that 'if you Shoot us, your bullets will bounce back towards you' (meaning 'hey, we're Bulletproof')...

Cut to the new 2014 film and, well, lol there you go.