Multicolored masks and heroic ninjas? HA!

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

(Edit: My apologies, this came off more condencendingly and angry than I meant it to. also, I'm done with this discussion, and will be making no further comments in this thread, thank you all for some very good points! I do respect all viewpoints on the issue, even if I don't agree with them! :) )

You know, I've seen the point made again and again that the OT elements of of the Teenage mutant Ninja turtles are patently stupid. And you know what? I finally agree with them! The potrayal of ninjas where there aren't all grim and gritty ninja assasins arecompletely idiotic! I mean, you'd NEVER see Japan potray ninjas in multicolored outfits!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakurangers

And this thing about fictional ninjas being heroes? Totally unheard of! I dare you to point me towards ONE ninja character from Japanese folkore and mythology who was a hero- NEVER gonna happen!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystical_Ninja_Starring_Goemon

So I agree, fiction teenage ninja MUST be potrayed as grim and gritty asassins, locked in a cycle of vengance, because that is the only way to pay honor to the proud culture that gave us the ninja, am I right? :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naruto

And even if children's shows potrayed them as heroes, grim and and gritty martial arts works would NEVER potray ninjas in a positive, heroic light:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja_scroll

[oldmanwinters]

Did you just now discover Wikipedia?

:tsmile:

[Powder]

Nobody has ever said that.

Also; pop culture/fiction does not = real life.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Goemon's fictionality is semi-questionable, and last time I checked, TMNT are as fictional as ninja scroll.

[IndigoErth]

Well... the Turtles after all are still just silly Americans like some of us here, and created by a couple more. And carried forward still by others yet.

I wouldn't really expect them being raised with a little bit of [American entertainment industry version of] Japanese culture from a rat man to mean they're/they're story expected to conform to real life standards. After all, in a version like this new movie where there is zero real reason for them to pick up on it, let alone have it correct and 'authentic,' or for their original creators to have been that knowledgeable, esp in pre-internet days, what can we expect. lol I mean, why even wear masks in the first place. :goof:

[Coola Yagami]

Well... the Turtles after all are still just silly Americans like some of us here, and created by a couple more. And carried forward still by others yet.

I wouldn't really expect them being raised with a little bit of [American entertainment industry version of] Japanese culture from a rat man to mean they're/they're story expected to conform to real life standards. After all, in a version like this new movie where there is zero real reason for them to pick up on it, let alone have it correct and 'authentic,' or for their original creators to have been that knowledgeable, esp in pre-internet days, what can we expect. lol I mean, why even wear masks in the first place. :goof:

Honestly... it looks cool on the turtles... and yeah, we're so used to it now it would look weird without em.... but noone... and I mean NOONE wears weird eye-hole bandanas on their faces. That's not a ninja thing.... at all. I mean the closest I've seen are Zorro and Robin, and they're still not exactly eye-hole bandanas.

[IndigoErth]

Yeah, that was kinda my point. Clearly it's more of a fashion statement or personal badge than it is identity concealment. :lol: (Or realistically of course identity indicator for viewers... but it's funner to figure out the Turtle's own reasons.)

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Actually, Zorro's IS. It's a full bandana (goes completely over his head) with eye-holes. Always has been. And there does seem to be precedent for it, since even most anime seem to use the idea, even before TMNT and other fictional characters popularized the idea. Usually, it's a simple headband rather than a mask, but they seem to be based off of similar concepts of using it to either denote rank or affiliation, or to disguise appearance- or both.

As for "heroic ninjas", just a cursory glance through some of the supposed "ninjas" in Japanese history reveals at least a couple that were considered "heroic" by the common people of their own time. One was a Samurai who had been conjectured to have been a ninja as well. (Apparently he was willing to do things most other Samurai wouldn't....) Then there was a noble-woman who opened a "women's school" that apparently trained female ninjas, and she was well-respected and seemed to be using her skills and school for the benefit of others- particularly women of the time.

[Coola Yagami]

I always thought Ninja were kinda like.... a grey area.. either good or evil depending on who hired them? They could be your bodyguard, or a merciless killer, depending on what you paid them to do.

[Davetello]

I find it mildly amusing that you have such a low opinion of your fellow 'OT fans' (whatever that means, lots of us enjoy the OT but are critical of its glaring weaknesses) that you felt the need to point out the sarcasm. It wasn't exactly subtle - felt like being hit over the head with a hammer.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Actually, Zorro's IS. It's a full bandana (goes completely over his head) with eye-holes. Always has been. And there does seem to be precedent for it, since even most anime seem to use the idea, even before TMNT and other fictional characters popularized the idea. Usually, it's a simple headband rather than a mask, but they seem to be based off of similar concepts of using it to either denote rank or affiliation, or to disguise appearance- or both.

As for "heroic ninjas", just a cursory glance through some of the supposed "ninjas" in Japanese history reveals at least a couple that were considered "heroic" by the common people of their own time. One was a Samurai who had been conjectured to have been a ninja as well. (Apparently he was willing to do things most other Samurai wouldn't....) Then there was a noble-woman who opened a "women's school" that apparently trained female ninjas, and she was well-respected and seemed to be using her skills and school for the benefit of others- particularly women of the time.

Ah yes, the story of Hattori Hanzo, and also the legend of the Knuoichi school. Two very good points! :D

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I find it mildly amusing that you have such a low opinion of your fellow 'OT fans' (whatever that means, lots of us enjoy the OT but are critical of its glaring weaknesses) that you felt the need to point out the sarcasm. It wasn't exactly subtle - felt like being hit over the head with a hammer.

That wasn't for my fellow OT fan's benefit. :tgrin:

[Ryanator008]

So clearly the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are the Mighty Morphin' Alien Rangers! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mighty_Morphin_Alien_Rangers

[Davetello]

That wasn't for my fellow OT fan's benefit. :tgrin:

You should have addressed that part to the critics, then :)

FWIW you make some fair points. Multi-coloured bandanas and a touch of heroism for example were good ideas for the show. They made identification easier and the hero aspect was more suitable for the show's lighter tone. It's no surprise that the headbands have carried over to every successive iteration of the turtles.

The way I look at it is that the OT did some things right and some wrong - as have all the iterations. There's nothing wrong with enjoying all of the franchise rather than being at odds with one because it isn't like another. I have a slight gripe in that I feel the OT's success has constrained the adult themes of the turtles, sort of like a noose around the franchise's neck. However, that doesn't mean that I wish the OT had never happened, because I am grateful for what it did for the franchise - after all, without it this site probably wouldn't exist and we might not be communicating. The OT is far from my favourite turtles universe, but it is the most influential and mainstream.

Like I and others said before, I would love if the franchise could be split into a more adult version and a more kiddy version. I'd still enjoy both, but at this stage I am really yearning for something turtles with an 18 certificate or produced by HBO, a full-on live action adaptation of the best aspects of Mirage etc. I understand the limits in this however, both financially and morally (young kids for example delving into the more adult aspects of the franchise after being attracted to the lighter parts).

Like someone said before, it doesn't seem right that every iteration of the turtles has to have some lightness in tone simply because of the OT's influence, and it being what more casual fans feel affection for. The irony of course is that many of us who are more 'hardcore fans' (hate that term) are also responsible for this as we made the OT what it is, and many of us (not all) did not discover Mirage and the serious aspects to the franchise until we grew up. Yet now some of us want the franchise to move away from what hooked us 27 years ago and gravitate towards what we eventually discovered as a result of Turtlemania. It's a strange position to be in because Mirage and 4kids are what I like most, but without the OT's popularity Mirage would be more obscure than it currently is and 4kids would never even have been created, as the turtles franchise would never have lifted off.

There's something else that I wanted to add, and that's the way that most people seem to find the idea of mutated ninja turtles to be very bizarre. Sure, humanoid animals becoming ninjas is pretty out there, but is it really much stranger than most comic books? What's so much more bizarre about the turtles than say Superman or the X-Men? They're all unrealistic but the turtles is viewed as more of a bizarre concept than the others. Of course Eastman and Laird intended this with the parody comic, but with the benefit of hindsight and all that has come since there's not really less realism in the turtles and their adventures than in X-Men or Fantastic Four and what they all get up to is there? Ultimately many comics and superhero comics are very, very unrealistic and would never happen in reality, so I'm not sure what makes the turtles any more wacky than most things. The turtles could never actually happen in the real world, but then neither could Superman or Wolverine.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

You should have addressed that part to the critics, then :)

FWIW you make some fair points. Multi-coloured bandanas and a touch of heroism for example were good ideas for the show. They made identification easier and the hero aspect was more suitable for the show's lighter tone. It's no surprise that the headbands have carried over to every successive iteration of the turtles.

The way I look at it is that the OT did some things right and some wrong - as have all the iterations. There's nothing wrong with enjoying all of the franchise rather than being at odds with one because it isn't like another. I have a slight gripe in that I feel the OT's success has constrained the adult themes of the turtles, sort of like a noose around the franchise's neck. However, that doesn't mean that I wish the OT had never happened, because I am grateful for what it did for the franchise - after all, without it this site probably wouldn't exist and we might not be communicating. The OT is far from my favourite turtles universe, but it is the most influential and mainstream.

Like I and others said before, I would love if the franchise could be split into a more adult version and a more kiddy version. I'd still enjoy both, but at this stage I am really yearning for something turtles with an 18 certificate or produced by HBO, a full-on live action adaptation of the best aspects of Mirage etc. I understand the limits in this however, both financially and morally (young kids for example delving into the more adult aspects of the franchise after being attracted to the lighter parts).

Like someone said before, it doesn't seem right that every iteration of the turtles has to have some lightness in tone simply because of the OT's influence, and it being what more casual fans feel affection for. The irony of course is that many of us who are more 'hardcore fans' (hate that term) are also responsible for this as we made the OT what it is, and many of us (not all) did not discover Mirage and the serious aspects to the franchise until we grew up. Yet now some of us want the franchise to move away from what hooked us 27 years ago and gravitate towards what we eventually discovered as a result of Turtlemania. It's a strange position to be in because Mirage and 4kids are what I like most, but without the OT's popularity Mirage would be more obscure than it currently is and 4kids would never even have been created, as the turtles franchise would never have lifted off.

There's something else that I wanted to add, and that's the way that most people seem to find the idea of mutated ninja turtles to be very bizarre. Sure, humanoid animals becoming ninjas is pretty out there, but is it really much stranger than most comic books? What's so much more bizarre about the turtles than say Superman or the X-Men? They're all unrealistic but the turtles is viewed as more of a bizarre concept than the others. Of course Eastman and Laird intended this with the parody comic, but with the benefit of hindsight and all that has come since there's not really less realism in the turtles and their adventures than in X-Men or Fantastic Four and what they all get up to is there? Ultimately many comics and superhero comics are very, very unrealistic and would never happen in reality, so I'm not sure what makes the turtles any more wacky than most things. The turtles could never actually happen in the real world, but then neither could Superman or Wolverine.

Believe me, I think it would be just as wrong to deny mirage fans thier version. I almost widh there was a way the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, with thier fans, and the Teenage mutant hero trutles (for lack of a better term of distinction) could each take thier own version of the franchise and go thier own way, but that will never, ever happen

[Davetello]

Believe me, I think it would be just as wrong to deny mirage fans thier version. I almost widh there was a way the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, with thier fans, and the Teenage mutant hero trutles (for lack of a better term of distinction) could each take thier own version of the franchise and go thier own way, but that will never, ever happen

Yes, that's sort of what I mean with the split (although calling OT kiddy and Mirage adult is quite broad and general as things are more refined and complicated than that). One set of fans could enjoy one part of the franchise, and another the other. Then there would be the likes of me who would consume all of it.

As I say the issues would appear to be finance and ethics - there are doubts to how much money a darker live-action show or new movie could make, if it would be sustainable. And a moral aspect is (as I alluded to before) the possibility of kids becoming interested in the darker side of the split due to their exposure to the lighter side. But this latter problem exists in other comic franchises so I think it could be overcome. The bigger problem is that the light-hearted turtles simply make more money than the Mirage-style turtles, and they're more mainstream and popular.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Although, I do find it amusing that in the only Peter Laid-appoved origin of ninjitsu itself, in one version of TMNT (4kids) Ninjitsu was created by four warriors trying to keep an evil tengu locked away, and they learned ninjitsu from the pet rat of the sudent (Yoshi) of the Student (ancient one) of the tribunal themselves. No trace of a trained martial arts assasin anywhere in that equation.

[Coola Yagami]

There's something else that I wanted to add, and that's the way that most people seem to find the idea of mutated ninja turtles to be very bizarre. Sure, humanoid animals becoming ninjas is pretty out there, but is it really much stranger than most comic books? What's so much more bizarre about the turtles than say Superman or the X-Men? They're all unrealistic but the turtles is viewed as more of a bizarre concept than the others. Of course Eastman and Laird intended this with the parody comic, but with the benefit of hindsight and all that has come since there's not really less realism in the turtles and their adventures than in X-Men or Fantastic Four and what they all get up to is there? Ultimately many comics and superhero comics are very, very unrealistic and would never happen in reality, so I'm not sure what makes the turtles any more wacky than most things. The turtles could never actually happen in the real world, but then neither could Superman or Wolverine.

I think it's mostly due to the fact that turtles are.... turtles... They're walking talking humanoid turtles that fight martial arts.... They're basically living cartoon characters in a 'real world'. The X-Men and such are all humans, with super powers, but still human. Even Superman, an alien, is taken seriously because he's human... and wouldn't have been taken as seriously if he was some alien talking aardvark or something.

It's one of the main reasons it will always be seen as a kids franchise. I mean it's like making a live-action Ducktales movie, but super serious and dark and have Huey, Duey, and Louie hack people up and make perverted jokes while Scrooge have a mental breakdown after losing all his riches and blah blah. You kinda... can't do that if you're gonna have talking cartoon animals as the main characters.

Oddly enough the more serious stories of the Mirage series involving the series are downright serious and kinda/sorta forgets that the main characters are walking talking turtles. Most of the time the Foot are so busy trying to kill the Turtles and avenge their master, they don't really stop to think 'why are our enemies giant humanoid turtles???'.

That's kinda why the movies don't start with something like the Triceratons right off the bat. It's too much to swallow talking turtles, but alien dinosaurs too? Save that for a sequel or two after the turtles have already been established.

It's just hard to take seriously as a whole seeing who the main characters are. Serious stories that are more grounded are more than welcome, but having talking turtles be the main characters does open itself easily to all kinda of wacky and kid-friendly situations.

[Davetello]

I think it's mostly due to the fact that turtles are.... turtles... They're walking talking humanoid turtles that fight martial arts.... They're basically living cartoon characters in a 'real world'. The X-Men and such are all humans, with super powers, but still human. Even Superman, an alien, is taken seriously because he's human... and wouldn't have been taken as seriously if he was some alien talking aardvark or something.

It's one of the main reasons it will always be seen as a kids franchise. I mean it's like making a live-action Ducktales movie, but super serious and dark and have Huey, Duey, and Louie hack people up and make perverted jokes while Scrooge have a mental breakdown after losing all his riches and blah blah. You kinda... can't do that if you're gonna have talking cartoon animals as the main characters.

Oddly enough the more serious stories of the Mirage series involving the series are downright serious and kinda/sorta forgets that the main characters are walking talking turtles. Most of the time the Foot are so busy trying to kill the Turtles and avenge their master, they don't really stop to think 'why are our enemies giant humanoid turtles???'.

That's kinda why the movies don't start with something like the Triceratons right off the bat. It's too much to swallow talking turtles, but alien dinosaurs too? Save that for a sequel or two after the turtles have already been established.

It's just hard to take seriously as a whole seeing who the main characters are. Serious stories that are more grounded are more than welcome, but having talking turtles be the main characters does open itself easily to all kinda of wacky and kid-friendly situations.

See, I considered that (as I alluded to), but that's sort of offset by the fact that Wolverine is immortal and has giant blades coming out of his hands. He might be human but that's something which would distract, too. Superman looks human but he's essentially an alien. He can also fly and has unbelievable strength. I'd say that's pretty much as bizarre as an ooze being created which can make animals humanoid. At least the turtles have human limitations - they're not super powered.

Then there's the Fantastic Four...look at what an accident has done to them. They essentially started as human but now some of them look just as freaky as the turtles,

I didn't make myself as clear as I'd like, though. When I mentioned those characters I really meant their entire universes including other characters as well. So while we can just about justify Superman and some of the X-Men mutants, you can't tell me that Darkseid or blue-skinned Mystique are any more believable or 'normal' looking than the turtles.

I see the point you're making but given the appearances of DC and Marvel characters I just can't buy it. I mean stories set in different galaxies or timestreams or worlds etc, just like the Triceratons, Renet, utroms, the Federation etc. It all seems to boil down to the fact that the turtles are animals who walk and talk like regular humans, but they're no less freaky in appearance or believable than other characters. In fact, I'd say it's far more likely that science could create an ooze which turns animals humanoid than it is we'd ever see someone like Darkseid arrive on Earth. And it's not like Darkseid is a unique character either - there's lots of these weird-looking alien megalomaniacs in comics.

Overall, I see the point you're making, but I just don't think the turtles are wackier than a lot of other stuff. Although I will admit that I might be being subjective here - perhaps I am so used to the turtles that I am desensitised now and the fact they're walking turtles doesn't even register. For a youngster hearing about them for the first time it might seem strange. Then there's also the fact that, most of the time, turtles in animation, film or comics are designed or drawn as turtles with sort of human faces. A humanoid turtle in the real world would look much freakier, like in certain Mirage issues.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Another big problem the 'dark and gritty' turtles; East Asian martial arts films with the 'protagonist's mother/girlfriend/brother/father/whatever gets killed and hero seeks revenge' films with the poisioned cycle of vengance theme/ violence begets more violence' has been DONE TO DEATH in Japanese and Chinese cinema. Raised and taught Martial arts to seek revenge- does Turles really need to be yet another 'Lady Snowblood' and 'Lone Wolf and Cub' clone? :(

[Davetello]

Another big problem the 'dark and gritty' turtles; East Asian martial arts films with the 'protagonist's mother/girlfriend/brother/father/whatever gets killed and hero seeks revenge' films with the poisioned cycle of vengance theme/ violence begets more violence' has been DONE TO DEATH in Japanese and Chinese cinema. Raised and taught Martial arts to seek revenge- does Turles really need to be yet another 'Lady Snowblood' clone? :(

Fair point. But a lot of entertainment is ripped off. Besides, I and some others are more interested in the turtles than in most Asian cinema.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Fair point. But a lot of entertainment is ripped off. Besides, I and some others are more interested in the turtles than in most Asian cinema.

Fair enough. :) As I said, each fan is entitled to liking thier own version of turtles!

Oh, and even though this has nothing to do with the ninja question, before anyone brings up those magic words 'source material', comics have been borrowing storylines and characters from thier adaptations for years; Jimmy Olsen, Perry White, the Daily Planet, Kryptonite, Harley Quinn, and Mr. Freeze's back story all had thier origins in adaptations, and were transplanted back into the source material. Other versions, and thier additions to the overall mythology, do have merit- no matter what anyone says.

[Davetello]

Fair enough. :) As I said, each fan is entitled to liking thier own version of turtles!

Indeed :) Been an interesting discussion anyway pal.

Going offline now. Talk soon I expect :)

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Indeed :) Been an interesting discussion anyway pal.

Going offline now. Talk soon I expect :)

Same here, it's been a great conversation. Good night! :)

[Candy Kappa]

Is Jubei in Ninja Scroll really the best example to be all snarky and huffy puffy about the topic?

He isn't a very heroic character in the movie, he was driven by revenge and was "nudged" into stuff by the old man. A better example would be Hattori-Kun or Ninin ga Shinobuden.

But the thing is with Japanese pop-culture Shinobi versus Fred Wolf TMNT, is that there is more authenticity involved when it comes to ninja lore be it either fantasy with Yojutsu (magic) or reality with Genjutsu (illusion & misdirection). FW TMNT and honestly TMNT franchise in general is usually just Ninja in-name with little to no research, and what research was done usually comes from American superhero comics or 80's movies.

And of course, the Silver Star Ninja movie series...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_LdNLOv1lKmI/SM6wTp4IMiI/AAAAAAAAAmA/RkCj7sNbeW0/s320/NSA1.jpg

And when it comes to the Turtles being heroes or not, really boggles down to taste and what goes around in the media/universe in question. Personally I don't see why they would be like Spider-Man and Batman and actively stop crime, as they aren't a part of our society, they aren't humans and why would they? Sure they stop crime when they stumble upon it and stop world destroying plots, but they rarely seek that stuff out.

And with the masks, personally I find the all-red the better design, but overall I don't mind the color masks, it's too late to ever make any big with the all-red mask, like a ongoing color comic or a theatrical movie. But, should be get down to it, real Shinobi don't have matching colors (except for that one school apparently, who's name escapes me, but Anthony Cummins wants to revive it) or matching uniforms, the well known ninja gi is a sham and fake, popularized by misconception of clothes and 80's ninja movies.

But in the realm of pop-culture, especially American pop-culture the ninja do dress in a karate gi with a hood, a pair of tabi and a non-accurate straight bladed katana.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Is Jubei in Ninja Scroll really the best example to be all snarky and huffy puffy about the topic?

He isn't a very heroic character in the movie, he was driven by revenge and was "nudged" into stuff by the old man. A better example would be Hattori-Kun or Ninin ga Shinobuden.

But the thing is with Japanese pop-culture Shinobi versus Fred Wolf TMNT, is that there is more authenticity involved when it comes to ninja lore be it either fantasy with Yojutsu (magic) or reality with Genjutsu (illusion & misdirection). FW TMNT and honestly TMNT franchise in general is usually just Ninja in-name with little to no research, and what research was done usually comes from American superhero comics or 80's movies.

And of course, the Silver Star Ninja movie series...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_LdNLOv1lKmI/SM6wTp4IMiI/AAAAAAAAAmA/RkCj7sNbeW0/s320/NSA1.jpg

And when it comes to the Turtles being heroes or not, really boggles down to taste and what goes around in the media/universe in question. Personally I don't see why they would be like Spider-Man and Batman and actively stop crime, as they aren't a part of our society, they aren't humans and why would they? Sure they stop crime when they stumble upon it and stop world destroying plots, but they rarely seek that stuff out.

And with the masks, personally I find the all-red the better design, but overall I don't mind the color masks, it's too late to ever make any big with the all-red mask, like a ongoing color comic or a theatrical movie. But, should be get down to it, real Shinobi don't have matching colors (except for that one school apparently, who's name escapes me, but Anthony Cummins wants to revive it) or matching uniforms, the well known ninja gi is a sham and fake, popularized by misconception of clothes and 80's ninja movies.

But in the realm of pop-culture, especially American pop-culture the ninja do dress in a karate gi with a hood, a pair of tabi and a non-accurate straight bladed katana.

A better example than ethier for a 'heroic' ninja would be the ninja robin hood-like Ishikawa Goemon, but I wanted a 'gritty' japanese example, And yeah, the gi and dragon doji are based on the kabuki stage outfit and are completely unauthentic. And I also point out that real shinobi didn't have all the same clan colors ethier, but used mon symbols to represent clan. And I do think ceratin versions of Splinter (especially the Yoshi ones) might have taught the turtles it was thier giri (duty) to protect the wold above.

Also, I was trying to say I wanted the TMNT poofing around from place to place and performing jutsus and performing magic like Jiraiya. Nor do we have to see the turtles or Splinter reciting the 'eighteen skills', niethier do I demand they act like a ninja from one of Sarutobi Sasuke's kabuki dramas. I was simply pointing out the long-trumpeted 'fictional ninjas aen't heroes' is an alien line of thought in Japanese pop culture and fiction. Many japanese fictional ninjas are protectors- look at Sheena's clan from Tales of Symphonia, or the Shekiah who protect the royal family in 'The ledgend of Zelda' series- they are clearly a fantasy world form of Shinobi.The 'grim Japanese assasin' is more a product of hollywood and american comic books.

[neatoman]

Eh, the color coded masks are probably a good idea to avoid confusion anyway. But the part about heroics, maybe making the turtles anti-heroes is a good idea.

[turtle1237]

Another big problem the 'dark and gritty' turtles; East Asian martial arts films with the 'protagonist's mother/girlfriend/brother/father/whatever gets killed and hero seeks revenge' films with the poisioned cycle of vengance theme/ violence begets more violence' has been DONE TO DEATH in Japanese and Chinese cinema. Raised and taught Martial arts to seek revenge- does Turles really need to be yet another 'Lady Snowblood' and 'Lone Wolf and Cub' clone? :(

But that does not just start with Japan, but all the way from ancient Greece.

Was a Achilles a hero? For seeking revenge over the death of Patroclus? At the hands of great Hector?

Or Hercules who in his stories revenges wrongs on himself, as the case when he saved a princess from a sea monster from Troy, but King Laomedon refuses to paid Hercules for his service, thus Hercules sacks Troy, kills Laomedon, and all his children expect Praim, who goes on to rebuild Troy, and
Hercules gives the girl to his friend Telamon?

[Cipher]

You could have just PM'd this to Andrew NDB and saved us all a lot of trouble.

But also--

Raised and taught Martial arts to seek revenge- does Turles really need to be yet another 'Lady Snowblood' and 'Lone Wolf and Cub' clone?
Not only are the Mirage comics ultimately not that, you're essentially arguing in favor of them being clones of other sillier things anyway.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

But that does not just start with Japan, but all the way from ancient Greece.

Was a Achilles a hero? For seeking revenge over the death of Patroclus? At the hands of great Hector?

Or Hercules who in his stories revenges wrongs on himself, as the case when he saved a princess from a sea monster from Troy, but King Laomedon refuses to paid Hercules for his service, thus Hercules sacks Troy, kills Laomedon, and all his children expect Praim, who goes on to rebuild Troy, and
Hercules gives the girl to his friend Telamon?

Actually, yes! Hercules WAS seen as a hero for his actions, as was Achilles to a much lesser extent, for Classical greek culture, because they upheld the values considered heroic in that culture, time, and place. Ironically, the stories of The Trojan war and Hercules's exploits were set during the earlier Mycenaean period, where the values would have been even more different! :lol:

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. Thanks for debating everyone, and Im outta this thread!

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I would love to see at least one incarnation where the turtles all wear red masks outside the comics.

[turtle1237]

Actually, yes! Hercules WAS seen as a hero for his actions, as was Achilles to a much lesser extent, for Classical greek culture, because they upheld the values considered heroic in that culture, time, and place. Ironically, the stories of The Trojan war and Hercules's exploits were set during the earlier Mycenaean period, where the values would have been even more different! :lol:

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. Thanks for debating everyone, and Im outta this thread!

If there right or wrong I was not going to argue, but that type of story is did not start in Japan, but almost at the beginning of time itself.

The Street Fighter story himself could almost follow want "Good" old Herc did when he got wrong, Terry/Hercules killing the brother/father, and selling the girl off for rewards/profits.

Hercules was look good for this deed, and Terry was look as Amoral and corrupt. If people have seen the Street Fighter 1974, its a pretty good flick.

[Tazi]

Naruto is probably the worst thing even happened to ninjas.

I don't care about the headbands, but I want a show and a comic that covers adult topics for some extent, and not just about writers competing each other of who can write Mikey the most possible idiotic way.
Hell even if Nick would just let IDW doing their thing I'd be much happier. I don't care about Nick doing the kiddy shows, until I can read ninja turtles which ones are actually the ninja turtles I like.

[IndigoErth]

I would love to see at least one incarnation where the turtles all wear red masks outside the comics.
But red would so clash with Leo's... uh...hm... ...katana handle wrapping, there we go. lol ;) (Ok ok sometimes they aren't blue...)

Maybe one of the movie sequels should go all red for a portion, like they did it to help confuse/throw off an enemy.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Ah! I would SOO love to see that! I just had a vision of them doing their own version of the "Three Amigos" scene where everyone was dressed alike to confuse the bad guys. They could ALL "go red" to make someone think Raph was in several places at once.

[Andrew NDB]

Another big problem the 'dark and gritty' turtles; East Asian martial arts films with the 'protagonist's mother/girlfriend/brother/father/whatever gets killed and hero seeks revenge' films with the poisioned cycle of vengance theme/ violence begets more violence' has been DONE TO DEATH in Japanese and Chinese cinema. Raised and taught Martial arts to seek revenge- does Turles really need to be yet another 'Lady Snowblood' and 'Lone Wolf and Cub' clone? :(

Yes. Yes it does. And nobody cares about that.

[Bry]

Another big problem the 'dark and gritty' turtles; East Asian martial arts films with the 'protagonist's mother/girlfriend/brother/father/whatever gets killed and hero seeks revenge' films with the poisioned cycle of vengance theme/ violence begets more violence' has been DONE TO DEATH in Japanese and Chinese cinema. Raised and taught Martial arts to seek revenge- does Turles really need to be yet another 'Lady Snowblood' and 'Lone Wolf and Cub' clone? :(

A lot of similar story ideas and basic plots have been repeated again and again throughout history. Look at the history of fiction and pop culture and you'll see that it doesn't really matter if something's been done before or "done to death" - just if it's done well. (And TMNT has a pretty unique spin on that basic story archetype, anyway.)

Besides - it's how the series was originally envisioned, and is arguably how it works best. So I'd answer the "does it need to be" question with a big YES. I'm not saying it needs to only be that, but that's what the story is in the beginning, at its core.

[Ville Leskinen]

Yes. Yes it does. And nobody cares about that.

Yes we do, Andrew, yes we do...:)

[Cipher]

(And TMNT has a pretty unique spin on that basic story archetype, anyway.)
This is what I meant by, "ultimately the Mirage series isn't that." There's a revenge story in there (actually an anti-revenge story), but it's topped with so much weirdness and other character moments that it really just becomes one of the elements of/vehicles for the events of the series. And, yeah, even when it's there, especially at the beginning it's an element of camp, which fits with the series perfectly and later develops into something more nuanced.

[Bry]

This is what I meant by, "ultimately the Mirage series isn't that." There's a revenge story in there (actually an anti-revenge story), but it's topped with so much weirdness and other character moments that it really just becomes one of the elements of/vehicles for the events of the series. And, yeah, even when it's there, especially at the beginning it's an element of camp, which fits with the series perfectly and later develops into something more nuanced.

Yeah, definitely. Agreed: that revenge plot is absolutely at the centre of everything, but it's a fun, clever spin on it, and the whole story/world becomes something bigger, weirder, and more interesting over time. But it's still the essential core of the thing, and every time that's taken out of it entirely, the whole of the series really suffers for it.

[Cipher]

Yeah, definitely. Agreed: that revenge plot is absolutely at the centre of everything, but it's a fun, clever spin on it, and the whole story/world becomes something bigger, weirder, and more interesting over time. But it's still the essential core of the thing, and every time that's taken out of it entirely, the whole of the series really suffers for it.
Oh, agreed. It's a really smooth, fitting vehicle for the series, and without it the property really struggles to find its thematic feet. (Or you have vague thematic topics like "family," but that's very much present in Mirage and loses a lot without some kind of conflict tied into it from the get-go -- and not an outside one as it is when the Turtles are just victims rather than equal propagators.)

The Turtles have to kick that hornets' nest.

[Bry]

Oh, agreed. It's a really smooth, fitting vehicle for the series, and without it the property really struggles to find its thematic feet. (Or you have vague thematic topics like "family," but that's very much present in Mirage and loses a lot without some kind of conflict tied into it from the get-go -- and not an outside one as it is when the Turtles are just victims rather than equal propagators.)

The Turtles have to kick that hornets' nest.

It's what makes it feel like it's an actual "story", y'know? It gives it purpose, a theme, and weight. Without that it's just... well, a cartoon. (Which can be fun, but not much more than that.)

[Cipher]

It's what makes it feel like it's an actual "story", y'know? It gives it purpose, a theme, and weight. Without that it's just... well, a cartoon. (Which can be fun, but not much more than that.)
Yep, yep.

I'm trying to curb myself here and not say it's impossible for a version of TMNT to skirt on being literary without following the Mirage model, but ...

Well, you guys let me know when one is.