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MsMarvelDuckie
09-27-2014, 08:01 PM
I couldn't seem to find anything that really delves into this rather weighty subject, so, here we are. As part of my research into turtles in mythology and folklore, in particular the symbolism and possible mythological connections that that surround the TMNT, I came across some interesting tales that made me start thinking about the origins of the Turtles in terms of a soul. We know the mutagen created their physical forms, but how did they gain their "souls"? In other words, what is it that makes them "human" in intellect, personality, morality, etc....? So I started trying to piece together some of the myths in a context that makes sense for the TMNT.

Here's what I've found: The Hindu mythos mentions that Vishnu- who is one of the chief gods, and also the creator who has witnessed the creation and destruction of the universe several times over- has undergone several incarnations, one of which is Kurma, who takes the shape of a giant turtle to steady the churning stick that is used to stir the elements used to recreate the world during its (and his) second incarnation. Coincidently, this incarnation's name sounds somewhat like the character of Kerma from the OT in Planet of the Turtleoids. And of course, the Hindu creation of the world says that it is supported on the back of an elephant that in turn stands on the back of- a turtle.

They also believe strongly in the concepts of karma and reincarnation, with the person's deeds in a previous life determining how they are reincarnated in the next. This might not seem to have anything to do with the TMNT- save for one thing; people can return as animals according to their "sins" or deeds in a previous life. For instance, a glutton might return as a pig, a lecher as a bull, etc. Not sure quite where turtles fit into this, but it leads me into the next discovery, which is.....

The Zuni Indians of North America have a tradition of making ritual sacrifices of their tribal totem animals during religious ceremonies to commemorate the death of relatives. Why? Because they believe that the souls of their people take residence in the bodies of their totem animals after death. The sacrifice is intended to send them on to the next world. What is interesting about this is that there is one tribe whose totem is the turtle! They catch turtles from a "haunted" lake, perform a communal dance and ritual to commune with the departed spirit, and then bring them into their homes, performing various acts to honor and seek blessings from the spirits within the animals. The next day, they ritually slay them and use the various organs as part of further rituals, before cleaning the shell and hanging it in the home or using it as ceremonial rattles or other items.

This led me to wonder- could this be how/why the TMNT came to be? Since the idea of destiny is so integral to the TMNT origin, what if this was part of it? Buddhism is part of Japanese culture and religious belief, which includes the idea of karma borrowed from the Hindus. So if they had somehow been reincarnated (for whatever reason) as turtles, and retained their human souls from the past life, perhaps this would explain how four otherwise "ordinary" turtles could have human minds and "souls" after being mutated! After all, they weren't born as mutants, so where would the souls have come from, otherwise? In fact, IDW seems to have taken a similar track in their origin tale, although they simply explained it as a plea to the gods from Yoshi in their previous life in Japan, without ever explaining how their souls could have ended up in the bodies of four turtles and a rat. I like that the Zuni belief fits nicely into that version of the origin.

Any thoughts? I'd like to hear other's take on these ideas, or if you think it makes sense, works for the various incarnations of the TMNT, etc. IDW seems to fit almost perfectly. (With Yoshi and sons souls taking residence in those particular animals as part of the scheme of destiny to avenge their murders, even though it could have been just as easily done with new human bodies.) and might also explain the Mirage origins as well. Other versions are open to interpretation, I suppose, but it makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Ulisa
09-28-2014, 02:56 AM
Reincarnation is an intriguing idea though I think the ideas that are used in fiction and whatnot tend to be a very "westernized" version of it. Case in point, while I love the idea of a soul being transferred to another body, when I asked my Buddhist friend at work about it, he told me it doesn't work quite that way.

The way he explained it to me is that your good deeds/bad deeds create a specific energy (i.e. karma) and that energy is all that is reincarnated. When I asked him about an individual soul, he told me that most Buddhist beliefs (though not all I am assuming) do not believe in an individual soul, just that everyone and everything contributes energy (i.e. a lot of negative karma results in being reincarnated into a lower form, positive karma into a higher form) When you reach a state where you can stop being reincarnated, your energy dissipates into the universe. I have to admit, that is extremely hard for me to wrap my head around.

However, the Native American beliefs are fairly new to me and they certainly sound intriguing. I could argue though that some people could argue that animals such as turtles DO have a soul and that mutation simply gave that soul a different form.

MsMarvelDuckie
09-28-2014, 09:37 PM
As a Wiccan and someone who has made a study of various esoteric systems, I can assert that your friend is correct. The idea of the soul itself being reincarnated is more properly a Hindu belief, as I noted, though karma eventually became a part of that religion- and as noted, these concepts were later "borrowed" by Buddhism. (which came about some time later.)

That said, there are, according to Hindu reincarnation beliefs, three separate parts of the "soul" which are the conscious mind or persona (your memories, personal morality, etc.), the more "basic" part that includes the unconscious mind or deeper psyche, and the energy that is the "life force". This is the part that continues on, along with the karma that becomes attached to it.

Now, I DO also subscribe to the idea that animals have souls- of a sort- but they are not the same as a "human" soul, being much more simple and unconcerned with things like morality, complex emotions, and other purely "human" concepts. An animal such as a cat or dog, for instance, DOES have a basic understanding of compassion and self-sacrifice, and even greed or jealousy, to some degree, but they rarely ever make conscious choices based on these ideals. Their minds (one might argue that this is the source of the "soul") are not complex enough to do so. So any rudimentary soul already present in an animal would simply remain as it was- very primitive and motivated only by simple impulses and emotions, much like a very young child who has not developed enough mentally to understand complex intellectual or emotional subjects (even though the brain is almost fully developed by about four or five). This is where the idea of human souls inhabiting an animal body between lives or before moving to the next world would come into play.

DarkFell
09-28-2014, 11:43 PM
I'm not certain if the Turtles *or any of the other characters* were reincarnations of anyone or anything.

But a former friend of mine once made a comment about him liking the TMNT III movie (where they go back to ancient Japan) because he saw it as a way of them visiting some ancient ancestors *seriously IDK about that.* But maybe he saw the Turtles as samurai *and they did look like samurai in the armor* .

So that could be one way to see them if you want: TMNT = reincarnations of departed samurai. Maybe Splinter can be = reincarnated noble emperor.

Weird theory but I thought I'd pitch in, plus it's *currently* late at night.

neatoman
09-29-2014, 06:58 AM
I don't know, no offense intended here, but a lot of religious concepts seem pretty farfetched to me. There's no real evidence such a thing as an immortal soul or gods even exist, so I just take it as any other old fantasy element like elves or dwarves and just enjoy the show.

Shark_Blade
09-29-2014, 07:03 AM
God does exist, though I don't believe in reincarnation - as in reliving your life as another living form.

But it's all just fun fictional read to build characters and tension, bringing revenge from previous life into the new one. "Yoshi, no matter even if you're dead I'll still find you even if you were reborn again hahaha", oh Saki you clown. Good times.

JamieH
09-30-2014, 04:27 PM
I don't know, no offense intended here, but a lot of religious concepts seem pretty farfetched to me. There's no real evidence such a thing as an immortal soul or gods even exist, so I just take it as any other old fantasy element like elves or dwarves and just enjoy the show.

Most sensible response so far.

Reincarnation is just a clever way to make the ninja connection make more sense, as well as the feud between Splinter and Shredder. Works better than a rat that learned everything by imitating it's owner. It's more convenient, but far less goofy. I mean it's still goofy, but everything about the Turtles is.

Cherry picking aspects of a religion or the religious for use in a work of fiction seems perfectly fine. Just taking an idea from one work of fiction and applying it to another. Not much else going on there.

MsMarvelDuckie
09-30-2014, 05:09 PM
BTH, that's all this thread is- speculation and borrowing ideas that make the mythos make more sense in terms of the characters' origin. The part that intrigued me most was the idea of a departed spirit taking residence within an animal form before passing to the next world. It doesn't even necessarily have to be connected to reincarnation beyond the notion of the souls of five deceased individuals residing in four turtles and a rat- that are then mutated to take on a form that more closely resembles their former selves. But they wouldn't remember those lives, in any case.

So it might be fun to consider, but it was never meant as a serious discussion of religious or spiritual beliefs. That said, my own personal beliefs give me a different perspective than most, and I'm fairly open to consider almost any spiritual concepts as possible. But it certainly, as some suggest, makes more sense than the rat learning by mimicking his owner, or from a book- and then teaching that to four turtles!

cloud
10-06-2014, 10:49 PM
Well, your theory requires the assumption that animals don't have souls and we can't prove or disprove that. It can also be explained that they already have souls before they were mutated.
The reincarnation thing is really confusing and complicated to dig into for TMNT. To be reincarnated as a turtle means a person has done some really bad things in the past life to be punished of not being human in next life. It's not a great idea to have the main characters past life as unlikable bad guys.

MsMarvelDuckie
10-06-2014, 11:32 PM
Perhaps reincarnation in terms of past "sins" or what-not isn't quite the right direction. I was thinking more in terms of animals that are considered sacred or are revered in some way, like the Zunis with the totem-animals, or Hindu faith with Kurma and the giant world-turtle. Animals that are viewed as "enlightened" or elevated in some way might hold the souls of especially "good" or spiritually advanced individuals.

As for animals having souls of their own, such would most likely be different from a human one. (Most Wiccans would tell you there IS a difference, though what that is may often be debatable.) Animals may well have spirits of their own- however, only a human is capable of understanding the existence of souls, or the concept of spirituality. (One of the main tenets of Wiccan belief is that ALL things are connected through Spirit/Akasha, and all living things have a spirit of their own.) That being said, it may be possible for an animal to have a soul, and still be inhabited by the spirit of a human being. (through possession or spirit-transference) In the case of the TMNT, it might be possible that the mutagen caused their "souls" to evolve or ascent to a higher state, though there's never been any evidence that the mutagen was intended to have such an effect.