Why is that we don't have a lot of character driven TMNT?

[Luckyday]

The only other show that tried to do this was the 2k3 series and that was mostly focus on Leonardo. It seems like a no brain to have a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles show that's character driven base on all past shows?

[snake]

IDW has a lot of character development.

[Luckyday]

In animated shows I mean.

I really should go back to IDW but I feel like need a flow chart at this point to read them in order. Most of the character development is only save for the comic books.

[plastroncafe]

You don't get many toys from character driven story arcs.

[Refractive Reflections]

It depends on the format of the show. If it's procedural or episodic like the OT or with more comedy-leaning shows, the expectations for character-driven growth are lower because of the syndicated-designed nature of the show. (It allows the episodes to be shown out-of-order.) If it's serial format, there's a higher expectation for it.

With the OT, it did what it could in its half-hour episodes in giving particular episodes dedicated to an individual Turtle, and the series made them even recall their experiences in the past, which was a step ahead of other syndicated cartoons at the time (some cartoons more or less having a "blank slate" in every episode) in giving the OT some character progression.

In the 2K3 series, it's strong point is the storywriting, particularly in terms of the path of Leonardo's character. Having the 2K3 show as a precedent of what character-driven TMNT could be for an upcoming show, I feel that the Nick series has shied away from this opportunity time and time again. It seems a lot more of "quantity over quality" whenever it comes to the characters (i.e. Mutant of the Week episodes), but it's not surprising with the number of action figures Nick wants to release (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1255478&postcount=137) with this show. Then again, we have to consider the child demographic of this show if they can "appreciate" that level of storywriting, or more importantly if the Nick executives think children have the capacity for that.

Character-driven shows take a lot more effort and patience in writing, but the reward is greater because there's a greater emotional resonance to it, and more of an inclination for the audience to buy its merchandise. In today's age of on-demand TV show viewing, it seems to boil down to whether or not the network and production staff feel it's worth investing for a particular show, and ultimately, if it's profitable with the demographic they are appealing to.

[Luckyday]

I suppose that's practical for a children's television show, but TMNT shouldn't be treated like a comedy cartoon. I really wish they would wake up and realize that.

[Garfield]

but TMNT shouldn't be treated like a comedy cartoon.

Why can't it be? Why put up these barriers of what TMNT should be... With imagination, effort and creativity, anything can be anything and still be appealing.

[Powder]

Why can't it be? Why put up these barriers of what TMNT should be... With imagination, effort and creativity, anything can be anything and still be appealing.

Clearly you misinterpreted. They're saying it shouldn't be treated as a comedy. Doing that, is exactly what you're saying they ought not do: putting up a barrier, labeling it as just one genre, etc. It should be a mix of everything, & not have every scene weighed down by the necessity of cheap gags & one-liners.

[Luckyday]

Why can't it be? Why put up these barriers of what TMNT should be... With imagination, effort and creativity, anything can be anything and still be appealing.

Because letting it be only a comedy cartoon is just as stifling and static.

[Refractive Reflections]

I suppose that's practical for a children's television show, but TMNT shouldn't be treated like a comedy cartoon. I really wish they would wake up and realize that.

I think I remember a thread back in the Nick forums about how Ciro said the Nick executives were concerned about the dark tone of Season 2 finale. (I didn't see the Season 2 finale yet though.) With that, it was kind of a red flag to me as to how far Nick would allow Ciro's storywriting would permit in terms of dark tones. It was one of my initial concerns about Nickelodeon acquiring TMNT, because most of Nick's popular shows are brightly colored, light toned, and humor-oriented. It made me uncertain as to how effectively a TMNT show could go in terms of maturity and darkness since this show deals with violence, and especially after seeing how far the 2K3 show could take TMNT. I'm not saying darkness is needed in telling character-driven stories, but having it substantially restricted is going to disappoint a significant portion of the TMNT fandom if they were ultimately expecting 2K3 levels of darkness.

The OT's success (Turtlemania) is probably the biggest "double-edged sword" effect for the franchise as a whole because on one hand, it proved and cemented just how successful and profitable the concept is. On the other hand, the success was so extreme, that in the mainstream's mind the success was attributed to being cartoonish to some degree, and therefore leaves the Turtles as pop cultural fixtures of being cartoon characters rather than comic book characters. If the 2K3 series wasn't as obscure in the mainstream's mind, and was as noticeable as the Nick series or the TMNT movies (with paralleling profitability), it could have given a more convincing platform to inject even more drama into the Nick TMNT series than we have now, and therefore lean toward more character-driven experiences.

I haven't seen the 2014 movie, but I'm wondering with its PG-13 rating if the franchise is slowly trying to introduce a darker perspective of the Turtles to the mainstream audience. Now as to whether this darker perspective is successful in being taken seriously by the mainstream audience is a whole other issue altogether.:lol:

[Luckyday]

I haven't seen the movie, and never will, but it looked to me that was trying to be more extreme then gritty.

It's not like I want TMNT to be dark. What I want is to actually feel something and not roll my eyes when knowing it's going to revert back to status que.

[Warhorse]

Well, I guess when the masses finally will see the TMNT as more than these cute, lovable goofballs, then we will see more character driven TMNT. But, have to kind of blame society as a whole, since they are the ones that financially drive the direction the show should go.

Granted, I am curious with the sales of the current TMNT show individual episodes. It just seems to me that when I go on VOD or HULU, it's the more dark episodes that are shown, like Slash and Destroy and the Casey Jones episode, so I am going to assume those are the more favorite types over lighter episodes like New Girl in Town.

[Refractive Reflections]

I haven't seen the movie, and never will, but it looked to me that was trying to be more extreme then gritty.

It's not like I want TMNT to be dark. What I want is to actually feel something and not roll my eyes when knowing it's going to revert back to status que.

I kind of get what you mean. :) There are a lot of times when I feel the series could advance to so much more. :ohwell: Two particular moments that stick with me are Raph and Fishface bonding in "Baxter's Gambit" and Leo being merciful to Fong (around the "Never Say Xever" episode) during Season 1. (Examples of more character-driven situations without adding darkness.) It makes the characters more emotionally tangible and relatable.

I thought the Nick show would have gone in this direction but...:ohwell: It seems these type of character moments are fewer and farther away with this second season in my opinion, as it's given way to what new mutant, alien, or weapon that will appear, or the Kraang merely augmenting the same original plan (more or less) for Earthly conquest.

It's been a gradual, but difficult acceptance of disappointment.

[Warhorse]

I kind of get what you mean. :) There are a lot of times when I feel the series could advance to so much more. :ohwell: Two particular moments that stick with me are Raph and Fishface bonding in "Baxter's Gambit" and Leo being merciful to Fong (around the "Never Say Xever" episode) during Season 1. (Examples of more character-driven situations without adding darkness.) It makes the characters more emotionally tangible and relatable.

I thought the Nick show would have gone in this trajectory but...:ohwell: It seems these type of character moments are fewer and farther away with this second season in my opinion, as it's given way to what new mutant, alien, or weapon that will appear, or the Kraang merely augmenting the same original plan (more or less) for Earthly conquest.

It's been a gradual, but difficult acceptance of disappointment.

So, I am assuming the new mutant of the week is still going on for season 3. With Creep, the frogs and Mondo Gecko? (With Playmates wanting all of these new mutants to sell toys with, I can't believe they haven't thought of side arcs for the Turtles, like Raph's Night Watcher or Mikey's Turtle Titan)

[Garfield]

Clearly you misinterpreted. They're saying it shouldn't be treated as a comedy. Doing that, is exactly what you're saying they ought not do: putting up a barrier, labeling it as just one genre, etc. It should be a mix of everything, & not have every scene weighed down by the necessity of cheap gags & one-liners.

What... you didn't understand what I was saying. when I said With imagination, effort and creativity, anything can be anything and still be appealing. That was my way of saying that TMNT can be comedy or serious and with imagination, effort and creativity it can still work. These barriers that you say that I'm putting up don't exist. I don't know how you got that from what I posted.

Because letting it be only a comedy cartoon is just as stifling and static.

Where did I say it should only be a comedy? You said it shouldn't be presented as comedy, I said why not? it can be presented as anything and still be a feasible presentation. That means TMNT can be comedic in tone and it works and it can be serious in tone and it works.

[Technogeek29]

I don't really mind comedy in TMNT I wish 2k3 had just a tad more of it. Or better one's of the jokes already present. But I don't want a repeat of the OT which at times I feel the Nick show is. Doesn't help my opinion when old characters keep showing up left and right. Now I'm I complaining about said old characters if they are integrated into the story naturally? Heck no in fact I like it when Rahzar was introduced. But I'm rambling back on subject

TMNT has shown to be a very malleable concept and so long as the Story of revenge between Yoshi and Saki is there some how the story/concept still works. As weird as it its, TMNT Ultimately has never been about the Turtles themselves just how they live their lives in this feud thrust into their bizarre and accidental existence. Part of the reason why the new movie fails but that's a story for another day.

[Shark_Blade]

I thought there's a lot of character driven stories.

Examples:
- April went from resenting the turtles to actually accepting them back
- Donnie plucking out the courage to actually tell April how he feels
- Leo's fight to the death. This time he got beaten to a pulp (how marvelous) - no pain, no gain
- Mikey took on the leadership role when in Dimension X
- Splinter reeling his daughter slowly instead of forcing her to accept the truth immediately
- Shredder's increased hatred on Yoshi, blaming him for what "he has done" to Karai
- Raph's self control instead of blind rage after being hugged and persuaded by Mikey


Seriously, this show is the best carnation ever like Kevin Eastman said. :tlove:

[Refractive Reflections]

I thought there's a lot of character driven stories.

Examples:
- April went from resenting the turtles to actually accepting them back
- Donnie plucking out the courage to actually tell April how he feels
- Leo's fight to the death. This time he got beaten to a pulp (how marvelous) - no pain, no gain
- Mikey took on the leadership role when in Dimension X
- Splinter reeling his daughter slowly instead of forcing her to accept the truth immediately
- Shredder's increased hatred on Yoshi, blaming him for what "he has done" to Karai
- Raph's self control instead of blind rage after being hugged and persuaded by Mikey


Those are good points, but for me, the difference between most of the season 2 moments compared to season 1 is that in the season 1 moments, we were learning more about their characters in the process. They appeared more... introspective on who they were rather than these season 2 moments being reactionary to whatever was occurring at the moment. But probably the biggest undermining flaw is that the show doesn't build on top of those moments and move the characters to head toward a particular direction, and the characters regress back to where they were. The show may be touted as a serial format, but with the show's plot amnesia and character regression, it's far more episodic than it realizes. (...Or maybe that's how Nick wanted the show in the first place? :-? To be leaning more toward an episodic format. Hmmm...)

With a serial formatted show, we should be seeing some personality changes (improving or deteriorating) with so much that has occurred with the characters, especially after 50 episodes and two seasons already, but the only things that have noticeably changed, were not the characters necessarily, but just the villainous threats with more mutant villains and the augmented Kraang takeover plot. For example, with so much emphasis on April being a mutant of sorts throughout this second season, shouldn't we have seen some significant perspective changes from April? (In the first season, we saw that form of contemplation with Dogpound and his backstory, and with Fishface explaining his devotion to Shredder to Raph ["Baxter's Gambit"], but this second season just doesn't seem to have that depth. :ohwell:) I could venture in saying that if I interchanged viewing any episode between the two seasons, most of the show's characters (with Karai being a notable exception) have remained in the same "location" more or less.

With that being said, I've learned to lower my expectations for the Nick show from the potential Season 1's direction once had.